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Nbadan
01-02-2005, 04:37 PM
Having never learned why we lost the Vietnam War, America is now losing another Asian war.

By Stewart Nusbaumer

With the proliferation of the Internet and the spread of political polarization, there has been an explosion of know-it-alls in America engulfing ambivalence and obliterating uncertainty. Everyone seems to know what America should and shouldn’t do, what will happen tomorrow and what won’t happen next year. And they know this with certainty.

Yet, those who claim the greatest certainty can be those possessing the least knowledge. It was the Neocons who insisted the Iraq War would be “quick and easy,” so it was they who couldn’t be bothered to plan for a protracted war. Now, approaching two years into a war that has no end in sight, Americans are becoming bothered there is no plan to win the war.

First we were told that when Saddam Hussein was overthrown, the fighting would stop. That was twenty-one months ago. Then, when Saddam Hussein the fugitive was captured, the insurgency would collapse. He was captured over twelve months ago. Then, when authority was transferred to the Iraqi government, the Iraqi military would take over the fighting. That was nearly ten months ago. Then, when Fallujah was occupied, the resistance would be defeated. The city was destroyed over two months ago, yet the insurgency is stronger than ever.

From defeating the Iraqi military to capturing Saddam Hussein to leveling to Iraqi control to Fallujah destruction, each promise has evaporated in a fresh pool of American blood.

Now desperately the U.S. is pinning its hope on Iraqi troops becoming the security forces and the January 30th election creating a credible local government. But Iraqization has shown itself to be an utter failure, as Vietnamization was an utter failure. And elections under the control of foreign occupiers never deter exploding resistance movements.

“There was no adequate operational plan for stability operations and support operations,” writes Major Isaiah Wilson, a former researcher for the Army’s Operation Iraqi Freedom Study Group and later the chief war planner for the 101st Airborne Division in Iraq.

At Cornell University, discussing his study on the Iraq War, Major Wilson said: “U.S. military planners, practitioners and the civilian leadership conceived of the war far too narrowly.” Scheduled to teach at the U.S. Military Academy next year, the historian and strategist believes that the top war-planners viewed the war too narrowly because they suffered from “stunted learning and a reluctance to adapt.”

“Stunted learning,” is generous, in my opinion, for those too hubristic to see that Iraq would not be “fast and easy.” Lots of us saw the war would be slow and bloody.

“Similar criticism has been made before,” writes Thomas Ricks in the Washington Post, “but until now [has] not been stated so authoritatively and publicly by a military insider positioned to be familiar with top-secret planning.”

The Roots of the Problem

“There was too much of an analogy with the occupation of Germany and Japan,” former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger complained to Wolf Blitzer on CNN. Henry Kissinger did not complain, however, that among those who planned the Iraq War, there was too little discussion of the Vietnam War, and how that past quagmire could be reproduced in Iraq. For Henry Kissinger and the Neocons of today the Vietnam War is forgotten history.

“Sir,” an email to me began:

As a Canadian I am totally puzzled why Americans never learn from their past mistakes, unless Americans cannot admit their mistakes. Has anyone in Washington come out publicly and said the Vietnam War was a mistake, beside the mothers who lost their sons and those who came home minus an arm or leg? What was that war all about anyway? To this day I still have not heard a satisfactory answer.

More than 58,000 Americans killed in a losing war against “a rag-tag 3rd rate military force,” as the Vietnamese resistance was often described, yet the post-war discussion in America was obscurant, distorted, and terribly short. Instead of a dialogue to understand why 58,000 Americans died in vain in Vietnam, Americans were witness to a vicious blame-game to obscure the reasons for these deaths. Instead of accountability, they got obfuscation; instead of truth, only scapegoats.

It was claimed that those long-haired antiwar demonstrations, “the war at home,” brought about our defeat in Vietnam. And that the press was complicit: the liberal press was defeatist, and this defeated our noble effort in Southeast Asia. And the politicians, those back-stabbing Washington politicians, they refused to allow our military to win the war.

In this post-war discussion in the 1970s, not blamed: were those who advocated the failed U.S. intervention in that far-off civil war; those who failed to design a strategy to counter the political and guerrilla war of the Vietnamese and those who hubristically ignored the fact that U.S. intervention would stimulate the great power of Vietnamese nationalism, which in the end defeated our internationalism, or if you prefer our imperialism.

It was irrelevant that the U.S. military won nearly every military battle, since we lost the psychological and strategic wars to the Vietnamese, to the North Vietnamese and to the Viet Cong, It was their country and they outlasted us in their country. Never underestimate the power of nationalism, even in this global world, to ignite “rag-tag armies.”

George Santayana wrote, “Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.” It is an old adage, yet one that applies to an arrogant nation that continues to overestimate its own power and underestimates the power of “rag-tag armies” seems incapable of learning.

Santayana, however, was too kind for German philosopher George Wilhelm Hegel. “What experience and history teach is this: that people and governments never have learned anything from history, or acted on principles.”

As we look at the unfolding disaster in Iraq, we see that America never learned from the Vietnam War, including that it is unacceptable to commit troops to a war that was never thought through. For Hegel this is not principle, but a crime.

Back to Vietnam

The U.S. war planners underestimated the Iraqis’ will to resist and they underestimated the insurgents’ ability to develop a viable strategy. After “shock and awe” the resistance would surely be reduced to a “rag-tag resistance,” right? And the planners overestimated the U.S. military’s technology and firepower, which they always do. So twenty-one months into this war, the world’s most powerful military is stymied, unable to halt the expanding Iraqis insurgency and the rising number of American dead.

Those who planned this war knew as much about Iraq as those who planned the Vietnam War knew about Vietnam, which is why Iraq will end the same as Vietnam. For those of us who fought in Vietnam and reflected on that disastrous war, we knew America would be beaten in Iraq. Many Americans came to that conclusion without having served in Vietnam. But not the Bush Administration's Neocons, and not most Americans. For them the Vietnam War never happened.

If the nation had seriously reflected on the disaster of Vietnam, if more Americans had the courage and taken the time to learn the terrible lessons of that war, then today America would not be in Iraq. Americans never understood the jungle could grow in the desert, because they never understood the jungle in the jungle. Horror comes in many forms, but none is worse than a nation that refuses to learn and again sacrifices its patriots and its young.

The Canadian asked, “What was that war all about anyway?”

Major Wilson said, the Iraq War planners had “stunted learning and a reluctance to adapt.”

And now retired Army General Donald Shepperd, speaking on CNN, awakens the ghost of Vietnam in the war in Iraq, when he says: “It doesn’t look like there is light at the end of the tunnel.”

Yes, the Iraq tunnel is dark.

-------

Stewart Nusbaumer is editor of Intervention Magazine. He served with the U.S. Marine Corps in Vietnam on the DMZ. You can email him at [email protected]

3rdCoast
01-02-2005, 06:15 PM
way to support your country and their troops. you are a fucking unpatriotic idiot.

Clandestino
01-02-2005, 07:51 PM
Yet, those who claim the greatest certainty can be those possessing the least knowledge. It was the Neocons who insisted the Iraq War would be “quick and easy,” so it was they who couldn’t be bothered to plan for a protracted war. Now, approaching two years into a war that has no end in sight, Americans are becoming bothered there is no plan to win the war.

the war was "quick and easy." the rebuilding is the hard part.


First we were told that when Saddam Hussein was overthrown, the fighting would stop. That was twenty-one months ago. Then, when Saddam Hussein the fugitive was captured, the insurgency would collapse. He was captured over twelve months ago. Then, when authority was transferred to the Iraqi government, the Iraqi military would take over the fighting. That was nearly ten months ago. Then, when Fallujah was occupied, the resistance would be defeated. The city was destroyed over two months ago, yet the insurgency is stronger than ever.

and nobody in the administration nor the military ever said any of these things...


More than 58,000 Americans killed in a losing war against “a rag-tag 3rd rate military force,” as the Vietnamese resistance was often described, yet the post-war discussion in America was obscurant, distorted, and terribly short. Instead of a dialogue to understand why 58,000 Americans died in vain in Vietnam, Americans were witness to a vicious blame-game to obscure the reasons for these deaths. Instead of accountability, they got obfuscation; instead of truth, only scapegoats.

we didn't just fight the vietnamese...they were backed by the russians... just like when russia fought the afghanis... the afghanis would've been wiped out had it not been for the u.s. back them.


The U.S. war planners underestimated the Iraqis’ will to resist and they underestimated the insurgents’ ability to develop a viable strategy. After “shock and awe” the resistance would surely be reduced to a “rag-tag resistance,” right? And the planners overestimated the U.S. military’s technology and firepower, which they always do. So twenty-one months into this war, the world’s most powerful military is stymied, unable to halt the expanding Iraqis insurgency and the rising number of American dead.
it is mainly foreigners conducting all the terrorist attacks..


nbadan, why do you hate the u.s. so much? was some politician or servicemember your daddy and leave you when you were a little boy?

Hook Dem
01-02-2005, 08:09 PM
Instead of worrying about this Dan...here is one for you. http://tinypic.com/15kj88

Aggie Hoopsfan
01-02-2005, 09:16 PM
Yeah everyone said we were screwed in Afghanistan too. They just held elections, their people (even women) are voting and getting an education, and AQ has been reduced to little more than an annoyance in what was once their "homeland."

Iraq is just a desperate time for AQ and those with similar thinkings in the Mideast, and desperate people use desperate actions to cling to whatever hopes they have left.

What's going on Iraq, leading up to the elections, has been predicted for months now, but I guess it's not surprising that liberals out there would point to what's going on in Iraq as sure signs we're going to lose.

Oh and Dan, if we lose in Iraq, better start brushing up on that Arabic, unless you like the idea of a bullet between the eyes.

Nbadan
01-03-2005, 01:31 AM
way to support your country and their troops. you are a fucking unpatriotic idiot.

Fuck you asshole. Your sorry ass wants to leave our brothers, sisters, neighbors, and friends in that God forsaken air-pit of the world. Who cares if the Iraqis they are supposed to be protecting don't want them there, right? You need to get your head out of your ass, turn off Fox News, and realize that this war isn't about fighting for American security or Iraqi democracy, but for control of oil. Plain and simple.

Nbadan
01-03-2005, 01:39 AM
the war was "quick and easy." the rebuilding is the hard part.

Not much rebuilding going on right now. Many contractors have left Iraq altogether, while others are cowarding behind American Security forces. The fighting is back in vogue, armed groups roam the streets looking for Westerners to kidnap, and thanks to Al Qa Qa the insurgents have tons of explosives at their disposal for IUD's and deadly attacks on Western targets, such as the Mosul bombing.

3rdCoast
01-03-2005, 01:45 AM
for control of oil

WHAT? Do you not drive or use oil?

dude, you = moron = please go to france or atleast to austin where you can be with the rest of the hippies.

Nbadan
01-03-2005, 01:47 AM
and nobody in the administration nor the military ever said any of these things...

Oh common, that not the way this administration works, and you know it. They have their myriad of mouthpieces out there, the Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Savage crowd who paint a pretty picture to the public every time someone comes up with another hair-brained scheme to put the broken Iraqi back together again.

Plausible deniability at its worst.

3rdCoast
01-03-2005, 01:54 AM
http://img53.exs.cx/img53/4700/edfatgaytrio5lr.jpg

Nbadan
01-03-2005, 02:06 AM
WHAT? Do you not drive or use oil?

dude, you = moron = please go to france or atleast to austin where you can be with the rest of the hippies.

Of course I use Oil, WTF does that have to do with anything? What you don't seem to understand is that the U.S. doesn't need the oil, per Se, American oil companies want to privatize the flow of oil in the region so that American oil companies, and not the Russians, or the Chinese, or the Indians manipulate the price, choose the market, drill and refine the oil, and finance it all with Euros instead of the rapidly depleting dollar. This is the new Pax Americana.

This move by the U.s. has resulted in a backlash in countries such as Russia and Venezuela which have recently moved to scuttle privatization of oil companies and have reverted back to state controls and the manipulation of prices outside of the free-market supply and demand system.

3rdCoast
01-03-2005, 02:08 AM
http://img53.exs.cx/img53/4700/edfatgaytrio5lr.jpg

Nbadan
01-03-2005, 02:19 AM
Yeah everyone said we were screwed in Afghanistan too. They just held elections, their people (even women) are voting and getting an education, and AQ has been reduced to little more than an annoyance in what was once their "homeland."

:rolleyes

Yeah they held 'free' elections alright, and just happen to elect a puppet of the U.S. and a friend of the U.S. NeoCons of their own free-will, right? The U.S. controls little of Afghanistan outside of Kabul, the Taliban and thus Al-Queda are re surging in the Pustin region of Pakistan and South-eastern Afghanistan. Meanwhile, W will have more troops patrolling Washington DC for his inauguration than we currently have in all of Afghanistan to keep the peace, and searching for the real perpetrators of 911.

3rdCoast
01-03-2005, 02:22 AM
alright, so what would you do if you were president of the US? i wanna hear what exactly you would do.

Nbadan
01-03-2005, 02:27 AM
What's going on Iraq, leading up to the elections, has been predicted for months now, but I guess it's not surprising that liberals out there would point to what's going on in Iraq as sure signs we're going to lose.

Oh and Dan, if we lose in Iraq, better start brushing up on that Arabic, unless you like the idea of a bullet between the eyes.

Yeah, predicted by the same token mouth-pieces in the MSM that have continously lied to us about the next rosy senario for Iraq that is just around the corner. The Iraqi have one thing in mind now, vote and get rid of the occupiers - that's us.

This war has nothing to do with protecting American freedoms or the homeland, win or lose in Iraq, my children and their children will be speaking english.

Nbadan
01-03-2005, 02:34 AM
alright, so what would you do if you were president of the US? i wanna hear what exactly you would do.

You need to read some of my previous posts, this writer for instance (http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8425) comes up with a semi- logical and almost acceptable, although tough to accept outcome in the cross-roads of though choices out of this quagmire for the U.S...


We assert two principles:

1. The internal governance -- or non-governance -- of Iraq is neither a fundamental American national interest nor is it something that can be shaped by the United States even if it were a national interest.

2. The United States does require a major presence in Iraq because of that country's strategic position in the region.

It is altogether possible for the United States to accept the first principle yet pursue the second. The geography of Iraq -- the distribution of the population -- is such that the United States can maintain a major presence in Iraq without, for the most part, being based in the populated regions and therefore without being responsible for the security of Iraq -- let alone responsible its form of government.

The withdrawal of U.S. forces west and south of the Euphrates and in an arc north to the Turkish border and into Kurdistan would provide the United States with the same leverage in the region, without the unsustainable cost of the guerrilla war. The Saudis, Syrians and Iranians would still have U.S. forces on their borders, this time not diluted by a hopeless pacification program.

Something like this will have to happen. After the January elections, there will be a Shiite government in Baghdad. There will be, in all likelihood, civil war between Sunnis and Shia. The United States cannot stop it and cannot be trapped in the middle of it. It needs to withdraw.

Certainly, it would have been nice for the United States if it had been able to dominate Iraq thoroughly. Somewhere between "the U.S. blew it" and "there was never a chance" that possibility is gone. It would have been nice if the United States had never tried to control the situation, because now the U.S. is going to have to accept a defeat, which will destabilize the region psychologically for a while. But what is is, and the facts speak for themselves.

We are not Walter Cronkite, and we are not saying that the war is lost. The war is with the jihadists around the world; Iraq was just one campaign, and the occupation of the Sunnis was just one phase of that campaign. That phase has been lost. The administration has allowed that phase to become the war as a whole in the public mind. That was a very bad move, but the administration is just going to have to bite the bullet and do the hard, painful and embarrassing work of cutting losses and getting on with the war.

MannyIsGod
01-03-2005, 02:59 AM
Iraq WILL be fucked if the Sunni's don't go through with these elections. That country simply needs to be 3, not one.

gophergeorge
01-03-2005, 10:01 AM
:rolleyes

Yeah they held 'free' elections alright, and just happen to elect a puppet of the U.S. and a friend of the U.S. NeoCons of their own free-will, right? The U.S. controls little of Afghanistan outside of Kabul, the Taliban and thus Al-Queda are re surging in the Pustin region of Pakistan and South-eastern Afghanistan. Meanwhile, W will have more troops patrolling Washington DC for his inauguration than we currently have in all of Afghanistan to keep the peace, and searching for the real perpetrators of 911.


That's a fucking lie.

Damm Dan..... you need serious help.

Clandestino
01-03-2005, 11:47 AM
Not much rebuilding going on right now. Many contractors have left Iraq altogether, while others are cowarding behind American Security forces. The fighting is back in vogue, armed groups roam the streets looking for Westerners to kidnap, and thanks to Al Qa Qa the insurgents have tons of explosives at their disposal for IUD's and deadly attacks on Western targets, such as the Mosul bombing.

there is tons of rebuilding going on... you need to stay off the conspiracy websites. i'm sure you still don't believe the u.s. landed on the moon either... not many u.s. contractors have left iraq... the majority are the foreign ones who thought it'd be easy money... most of the contractors their have their own security forces...

Clandestino
01-03-2005, 11:49 AM
Oh common, that not the way this administration works, and you know it. They have their myriad of mouthpieces out there, the Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Savage crowd who paint a pretty picture to the public every time someone comes up with another hair-brained scheme to put the broken Iraqi back together again.

Plausible deniability at its worst.

you can't honestly think all this shit.. if so, i bet you were the kid who got his ass kicked in school every day..

Aggie Hoopsfan
01-03-2005, 01:16 PM
Puppet of the US? Karzai? That's some good shit. I guess we paid all those millions of Afghans to vote for him, right?


but for control of oil. Plain and simple.

That's right, if Al Qaeda wins we'll be paying $400 a barrel, you better fucking hope we win dumbass.

MannyIsGod
01-03-2005, 03:37 PM
lol, karzai is a puppet of the US. That's not a conspiracy,that's fucking true. You think he'd do shit without US approval?

desflood
01-03-2005, 03:58 PM
Yeah, predicted by the same token mouth-pieces in the MSM that have continously lied to us about the next rosy senario for Iraq that is just around the corner. The Iraqi have one thing in mind now, vote and get rid of the occupiers - that's us.

This war has nothing to do with protecting American freedoms or the homeland, win or lose in Iraq, my children and their children will be speaking english.

Anybody recall some years ago, there was an attempt to assasinate Hussein's oldest son. The suspected an electrician who worked in one of Saddam's (many) palaces. After they tortured him for a few days and he still wouldn't confess, they brought in his three-year-old daughter and BROKE HER LEGS (yes, both of them) to make him confess. Do you have children? Imagine someone doing that to one of them because they want you to confess to something you aren't guilty of. Now, tell me we should have let Saddam Hussein remain in power.

Bandit2981
01-03-2005, 04:13 PM
After they tortured him for a few days and he still wouldn't confess, they brought in his three-year-old daughter and BROKE HER LEGS (yes, both of them) to make him confess. Do you have children? Imagine someone doing that to one of them because they want you to confess to something you aren't guilty of. Now, tell me we should have let Saddam Hussein remain in power.
oh, but its ok for our department of defense to encourage the use of torture at abu ghraib and guantanamo bay to get "accurate" information from the prisoners there? you set a dangerous double standard there...besides, if we went to war because Saddam was "a bad guy" then we have a shitload of countries to overthrow to follow suit

NeoConIV
01-03-2005, 04:55 PM
Do you have kids Dan?

Useruser666
01-03-2005, 08:34 PM
oh, but its ok for our department of defense to encourage the use of torture at abu ghraib and guantanamo bay to get "accurate" information from the prisoners there? you set a dangerous double standard there...besides, if we went to war because Saddam was "a bad guy" then we have a shitload of countries to overthrow to follow suit

I don't think we as average Americans can determine who should get what type of treatment and what is appropriate in these very specific circumstances.

JoeChalupa
01-03-2005, 09:26 PM
It bites my ass when someone is called "unpatriotic" just because they speak out.

I speak out all time, even during the Clinton years, and I'll be damned if I'll be called unpatriotic!! I love my Country just as much as any conservative republican!!!!!!!

I may not always agree with Dan but I respect his right to disagree and that is why I love this country.

Semper Fi!!!

Bandit2981
01-03-2005, 09:56 PM
It bites my ass when someone is called "unpatriotic" just because they speak out.
thats why they do it Joe, as long as you keep getting irritated about such an asinine charge, you will continue to hear it tossed about

JoeChalupa
01-03-2005, 09:58 PM
You are correct sir!!

exstatic
01-03-2005, 10:38 PM
Words of wisdom: never get involved in a land war in Asia. It was true for Napolean. It was true for Hitler. Hell, the best we've managed was a friggin tie in Korea. Some people never learn, though.

MannyIsGod
01-03-2005, 11:09 PM
We should have won in Korea. MacArthur forced a confrintation with the Chinese when was was not nessecary to win that entire peninsula.

exstatic
01-04-2005, 12:17 AM
MacArthur forced a confrintation with the Chinese when was was not nessecary to win that entire peninsula.


A Hawk overreaching his grasp. Hmmm. Why does THAT sound familiar?

desflood
01-04-2005, 08:21 PM
oh, but its ok for our department of defense to encourage the use of torture at abu ghraib and guantanamo bay to get "accurate" information from the prisoners there? you set a dangerous double standard there...besides, if we went to war because Saddam was "a bad guy" then we have a shitload of countries to overthrow to follow suit

Bandit, you don't mean to compare torturing adults who made their own decisions to torturing small children?

Bandit2981
01-04-2005, 10:26 PM
Bandit, you don't mean to compare torturing adults who made their own decisions to torturing small children?
hmm, and the US has never been involved in the torture of children? not even vietnam or todays wars? interesting... :rolleyes

desflood
01-05-2005, 10:43 AM
Can you give me an example of when the United States knowingly tortured small children? Seriously. I've never heard one. And I don't think 15- or 16-year-old boys who pick up guns to shoot at us are children.

You know, it's cool to be able to talk politics like this. My husband couldn't care less. You think being military he'd care!

Nbadan
01-05-2005, 04:08 PM
Can you give me an example of when the United States knowingly tortured small children? Seriously. I've never heard one. And I don't think 15- or 16-year-old boys who pick up guns to shoot at us are children.

You know, it's cool to be able to talk politics like this. My husband couldn't care less. You think being military he'd care!

Children were tortured at Abu Gharib some younger than 10.

Yonivore
01-05-2005, 05:38 PM
Here's an excellent blog on torture...

Go to the blog (http://belmontclub.blogspot.com/) to link to the internal references...my tags are screwey today.


At one level the debate over the use of torture in the War on Terror is moot. The United States military has a long operational history of forgoing possible practical advantages in favor of upholding certain national values. The most obvious modern example are rules of engagement in the use of fires. During the recently concluded assault on Fallujah and in current operations in Iraq, military restrictions on the use of firepower around mosques or populated areas are enforced with the foreknowledge that such steps will result in statistically higher casualties to troops. This practice follows long historical precedent. The policy of precision daylight bombing during World War 2; the tendency toward 'No First Strike' during the Cold War and even the restriction on political assassinations in the Carter years are all examples of unilateral renunciations of military advantage.

As Eugene Volokh pointed out, framing the debate over torture in purely moral terms blinds us to other issues that it raises. Unless it is wholly pointless and sadistic, torture is the act of substituting the torment of one person for another; the suffering of a suspect to prevent the suffering of the presumed victim. This characteristic makes the legalization of torture appealing even to intelligent people like Alan Dershowitz. His characterization of the need for a 'torture warrant' to find a way out of the predicament of the 'ticking time bomb' underscores the fungibility of suffering in the starkest terms. The absolute refusal to employ torture under any circumstances is inevitably the acceptance of the suffering of victims whose death or dismemberment could have been prevented by its use. Yet accepting the legitimacy of torture, however extreme the circumstances, carries with it the danger of what Eugene Volokh called the 'slippery slope': the embrace of an abhorrent principle to satisfy the exigencies of the moment.

The way out of this logical prison may lie in appreciating the similarity between restraints on torture and restrictions on dealing out death on a battlefield on which innocents may be present. Time and again a military commander must give orders which will result in the statistically certain death of civilians in order to combat the enemy. He never admits to its desirability -- never embraces the abhorrent principle -- but instead binds himself to a process designed to reduce these evils to the practical minimum. It is a position made tenable only by the rejection of absolutes: on the one hand to maintain the principle against harming innocents while at the same time accepting the existential need to defeat the enemy. It is often a world of compromise and sometimes of fiction. But it is real enough. Americans pay the price of humanity with actual red blood.

Two things flow from this observation. The first is that sacrosanct principles are upheld even at great cost. Limits on allowable behavior are imposed even in the presence of a literally ticking bomb. As pointed out earlier, the US has a long history of accepting the consequent suffering of its men as a price for prosecuting war under nationally accepted principles. If Iraq is not proof of that, then Vietnam certainly was. But the second is that the preservation of those sacrosanct principles is never carried to the point where action becomes impossible. Upholding national values must never come at the cost of defeat and extinction; must never become 'a death pact'. Hence abstract rules of engagement are meaningless; they acquire a significance only in their practical effect. This implies that the debate on torture, if is to have any relevance, cannot simply be a carping or grand restatement of principles. They must meaningfully determine what American fighters are allowed or not allowed to do with the specificity that even now controls the use of force in Iraq.

The danger is that the confirmation hearings of Attorney General nominee Alberto Gonzales will in the end leave the entire question of interrogating prisoners undefined or stuck in the 19th century idealisms of the Geneva Convention. There must be definite guidance on whether it is permissible to require more than the name and rank and serial number of a captured terrorist; and if so how far one may go. It should be understood that any restrictions imposed must be carried out to the letter, even if these restrictions almost certainly result in the deaths of American soldiers and innocents, because that is what rules of engagement do. That realization should make policy makers craft their restrictions very thoughtfully; something alas, which they rarely do. Just as the torturer who claims that he serves a higher cause stands on false ground so too must the man who advocates gentleness with terrorists accept that the pursuit of his moral good will often be bought by the suffering of children. On every battlefield men have tried to strike a balance between saving their lives and saving themselves; and the choice though hard is before us.
Addendum

I am not at all convinced that putting panties on a prisoner's head constitutes torture in the context of the War on Terror; nor should sleep deprivation, some physical violence and other types of intimidation be ruled out of bounds. But neither is it persuasive to argue that standing at the telephone receiver while an Egyptian interrogates a "rendered" prisoner in Cairo not torture, though legally it may not be. That is the weasel-world toward which a pious acceptance of unrealistic rules of war leads us to.

We ought to be manly enough to authorize the use of a certain amount force on terrorist suspects, but only to the degree consistent with our deepest national values. To strike a balance between the need to maintain certain principles without paying too much for it in terms of military advantage; remembering what cost in blood must be paid for keeping the national conscience clean. It is a cup that will not pass away. We will be called to account not only for our management of captives but also for whether we allowed them to kill the innocent while they grinned insolently before us. Both the tortured prisoner and the child blown to pieces by a terrorist bomb will accuse us on the Last Day. About the only thing we can do is our best. But there is no weaseling out, no escape from choice.

Yonivore
01-05-2005, 05:40 PM
You know, I'm convinced Nbadanallah masturbates to all the posts that reference him so, in addition to keeping him on my ignore list, I'm going to completely quit referencing him at all...please, join me.

desflood
01-05-2005, 05:45 PM
Interesting, never heard a word about that. Ranks right up there with Saddam putting children into his prisons because their parents wouldn't release them to be trained into his army. Now, while I am not sure whether or not the United States should have been the ones to do so, I do believe the Iraqi people needed to be "rescued" from Hussein (although, nobody else would have done it...).

NeoConIV
01-05-2005, 05:50 PM
Bush is the anti-Christ who took us to war on a lie about WMD's when it was really about oil. C'mon Yoni, get with the program already. Bush gave the green light to torture any random arab, just because. Bush also caused the tsunami, because he's the anti-christ, the anti-christ has those kind of powers.


The war in Iraq was about oil.