What is Patriotism?

[Mavtek]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClEBHdcJl8I

[SouthernFried]

Thanks man, I feel I just lost 50 IQ points watching this.

Just enough to put me solidly in the Democratic party camp tho...go Hilaree!

Now, where's my 5 grand for Jr's college?!

Gimme...

[George Gervin's Afro]

If you blindly support GWB you are a patriot. if you don't then you aren't very patriotic..

[Ignignokt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClEBHdcJl8I


this southern avenger also happens to run a video demanding whites not apologize for slavery, also said in the same video that the civil war being fought for slavery is as simplistic as thinking iraq is about oil.

[Ignignokt]

Look he's right about Patriotism.

Patriotism is Love for one's country.

That said, you could love your country but hate it's policies, and you'd still be a patriot.

But when one is anti soveriegn- pro UN, and has suspicous reasons to oppose it's countries policies, his/her patriotism should be questioned.

When one is rooting for results to incriminate it's govt like a majority of the truthers, then that is not patriotism. When one roots for the enemy to demolish one's country, that is not patriotism.

Patriotism has nothing to do with opposing wire taps. This country and the constitution have always altered the laws to secure it's people in times of war, see FDR and Lincoln.

Even though Benjamin Franklin once said, "Those who chose security over liberty deserve neither," he was never a governor or president like lincoln who was at a crisis when this country was about to collapse.

Our govt is and country is Federal, our hearts are local and state.

THis is America.

[Mavtek]

Thanks man, I feel I just lost 50 IQ points watching this.

Just enough to put me solidly in the Democratic party camp tho...go Hilaree!

Now, where's my 5 grand for Jr's college?!

Gimme...

Please don't tell me you are trying to equate anything the SouthernAvenger writes with the Democratic Party?

[Mavtek]

this southern avenger also happens to run a video demanding whites not apologize for slavery, also said in the same video that the civil war being fought for slavery is as simplistic as thinking iraq is about oil.

Good, "whites" shouldn't apologize for slavery. I'm white and I can tell you I've researched my ancestry and none of my ancestors were slave owners. Further even if they were slave owners I wouldn't apologize for Slavery. I didn't commit slavery, if I were around during the time of slavery or civil rights persecution I'd have been one of the "whites" speaking out against these abhorrent racial tendencies. Should "whites" also apologize for the abhorrent treatment of blacks, Jews, Pols, and Asians during World War 2? Should Christians apologize for the crusades?

Ridiculous!

[Mavtek]

Look he's right about Patriotism.

Patriotism is Love for one's country.

That said, you could love your country but hate it's policies, and you'd still be a patriot.
I agree with you on both accounts

But when one is anti soveriegn- pro UN, and has suspicous reasons to oppose it's countries policies, his/her patriotism should be questioned.

Yep I agree with you there, that's why one should really question Mr. Bush.

When one is rooting for results to incriminate it's govt like a majority of the truthers, then that is not patriotism. When one roots for the enemy to demolish one's country, that is not patriotism.

What the hell are you talking about?

Patriotism has nothing to do with opposing wire taps. This country and the constitution have always altered the laws to secure it's people in times of war, see FDR and Lincoln.

The problem is we aren't at war with a tangible enemy, we are at war with a tactic. We are at war with an enemy with no navy, army, or air power. We are at war like we are at war on drugs.

Even though Benjamin Franklin once said, "Those who chose security over liberty deserve neither," he was never a governor or president like lincoln who was at a crisis when this country was about to collapse.

Our govt is and country is Federal, our hearts are local and state.

Ridiculous, Benjamin Franklin was right, and FDR and Lincoln were very wrong. Lincoln killed 650,000 Americans and fueled hate for the north in the south for decades afterward all for his misguided attempt to preserve the union. FDR brought socialism to America all in order to restore jobs, the government gave everyone jobs. No one even asked the question where did the Government get all this money? FDR was power hungry to a T. You're right FDR subverted Civil rights, but mostly just for Japanese people, or Asian in general. Was that ok for you? Let's put all the Arab's in camps?

Are you really an American?

THis is America.

Correction, this used to be America, now we have people like you who think subverting the constitution just because you think it will some how make you safer running around hollering Islamo fascists, Islamo fascists!

America was first and foremost about Liberty, what you speak of is sick and convoluted socialism.

[Ignignokt]

Correction, this used to be America, now we have people like you who think subverting the constitution just because you think it will some how make you safer running around hollering Islamo fascists, Islamo fascists!

America was first and foremost about Liberty, what you speak of is sick and convoluted socialism.


You must be denying American history, FDR and Lincoln both suspended civil liberties in times of crisis. RFK wiretapped MLK, the list goes on.

[Mavtek]

You must be denying American history, FDR and Lincoln both suspended civil liberties in times of crisis. RFK wiretapped MLK, the list goes on.

I'm not denying history! I'm flat out saying they were wrong! I'm willing to say hindsight is 20/20!

We didn't need to put Asian's in concentration camps during World War 2, and we didn't need a war to preserve the Union.

[Ignignokt]

FDR did more than put asians in military camps.

[BonnerDynasty]

We should talk Switz into taking out France and Mexico.

[Wild Cobra]

this southern avenger also happens to run a video demanding whites not apologize for slavery, also said in the same video that the civil war being fought for slavery is as simplistic as thinking iraq is about oil.
The civil war wasn't about slavery. It was about "States Rights," which happened to include slavery!

Now I would agree that present day people should not apologize for the sins of our forefathers. We had noting to do with it!

The war in Iraq is not about oil. It's about enforcing international agreements, possible threats to us, and liberation.

[Mavtek]

Cobra you might wanna check out the Avenger's other candidate videos.

[clambake]

The war in Iraq is not about oil. It's about enforcing international agreements, possible threats to us, and liberation.
not true.

the new republic is about a never ending search to find the acceptable wrong. sit back and enjoy. bush can arm the sunni and shia, and make it last until Jan 09. he has given birth to civil slaughter that his minions (mild comma) will blame on others.

there is a beauty to this madness.........spend american taxes on both sides.....give every opponent money........which will be spent on weapons..... that will be offered by western interest......to all sides.

[Wild Cobra]

Look he's right about Patriotism.

Yes, but did he leave out a few inconvenient truths?



Patriotism is Love for one's country.

And then some. It means supporting your country too. You don't talk bad about instances like the Iraq war if you are patriotic unless you are absolutely certain you are right. Denigrate the reasons for war because you don't like the man or the mission is not patriotic. Unless you are absolutely certain you are right, you are a turncoat rather than a patriot.



That said, you could love your country but hate it's policies, and you'd still be a patriot.

That too is incomplete. It also means you follow the laws you disagree with. Work to change them, but follow the laws.

Definition; Patriot:

Devoted to the welfare of ones country.

If you care about your country, you use caution when using words of dissent. During times of war, you are even more cautious as not to embolden the enemy.

[Wild Cobra]

not true.

the new republic is about a never ending search to find the acceptable wrong. sit back and enjoy. bush can arm the sunni and shia, and make it last until Jan 09. he has given birth to civil slaughter that his minions (mild comma) will blame on others.

there is a beauty to this madness.........spend american taxes on both sides.....give every opponent money........which will be spent on weapons..... that will be offered by western interest......to all sides.
You know, I'm just tempted to put you and boutons back on IGNORE. Sure, you guys aren't being the shits you were when I had you on IGNORE before, but you are just always so far off base, it makes no sense to read your material.

[Wild Cobra]

Cobra you might wanna check out the Avenger's other candidate videos.
Why?

I do agree with his primary like of thinking on what a patriot is, but I try not to spend as much time on the internet as I already do.

[Mavtek]

Why?

I do agree with his primary like of thinking on what a patriot is, but I try not to spend as much time on the internet as I already do.


Because he's an excellent writer/commentator. Spend less time on the internet? I'd like to spend more time on the internet. It is inherently a well of information, a well so vast that one could never tap it. I enjoy all the information the well has to offer. I soak in hours and hours per day and it leads me to much more well rounded opinions. I do this mostly because I like being right all the time.

[clambake]

You know, I'm just tempted to put you and boutons back on IGNORE. Sure, you guys aren't being the shits you were when I had you on IGNORE before, but you are just always so far off base, it makes no sense to read your material.
:lol :lol I would never put anyone on ignore, especially you.

Watching you try to rewrite history is comedy gold. :lol :lol

[Extra Stout]

Good, "whites" shouldn't apologize for slavery. I'm white and I can tell you I've researched my ancestry and none of my ancestors were slave owners. Further even if they were slave owners I wouldn't apologize for Slavery. I didn't commit slavery, if I were around during the time of slavery or civil rights persecution I'd have been one of the "whites" speaking out against these abhorrent racial tendencies. Should "whites" also apologize for the abhorrent treatment of blacks, Jews, Pols, and Asians during World War 2? Should Christians apologize for the crusades?

Ridiculous!
I have Irish ancestors. I demand the English apologize for Irish oppression!

I have German ancestors. I demand the Swedish and French apologize for the Seventy Years' War! I demand the Italians apologize for wars against German tribes in Roman times! I demand Hungarians apologize for the marauding of the Huns! I demand the Mongolians apologize for Genghis Khan!

I have Lithuanian ancestors. I demand the Russians apologize for Soviet domination! I demand the French apologize for their military campaign under Napoleon! I demand that the German part of my ancestry apologize for Prussian and Hanseatic domination of Lithuanian lands!

I have Alsatian ancestors. I demand both the German and French parts of my ancestry apologize to one another!

I could go on and on. Until I receive all twenty-six apologies I am owed, there is no way I can be expected to function in society.

[clambake]

I have Irish ancestors. I demand the English apologize for Irish oppression!

I have German ancestors. I demand the Swedish and French apologize for the Seventy Years' War! I demand the Italians apologize for wars against German tribes in Roman times! I demand Hungarians apologize for the marauding of the Huns! I demand the Mongolians apologize for Genghis Khan!

I have Lithuanian ancestors. I demand the Russians apologize for Soviet domination! I demand the French apologize for their military campaign under Napoleon! I demand that the German part of my ancestry apologize for Prussian and Hanseatic domination of Lithuanian lands!

I have Alsatian ancestors. I demand both the German and French parts of my ancestry apologize to one another!

I could go on and on. Until I receive all twenty-six apologies I am owed, there is no way I can be expected to function in society.
i'm sorry X 20 :cry

[George Gervin's Afro]

Yes, but did he leave out a few inconvenient truths?


And then some. It means supporting your country too. You don't talk bad about instances like the Iraq war if you are patriotic unless you are absolutely certain you are right. Denigrate the reasons for war because you don't like the man or the mission is not patriotic. Unless you are absolutely certain you are right, you are a turncoat rather than a patriot.


That too is incomplete. It also means you follow the laws you disagree with. Work to change them, but follow the laws.

Definition; Patriot:

Devoted to the welfare of ones country.

If you care about your country, you use caution when using words of dissent. During times of war, you are even more cautious as not to embolden the enemy.


and i thought you were pro first amendment. :rolleyes

[George Gervin's Afro]

Yes, but did he leave out a few inconvenient truths?


And then some. It means supporting your country too. You don't talk bad about instances like the Iraq war if you are patriotic unless you are absolutely certain you are right. :lol Denigrate the reasons for war because you don't like the man or the mission is not patriotic. Unless you are absolutely certain you are right, you are a turncoat rather than a patriot.


Definition; Patriot:

Devoted to the welfare of ones country.

If you care about your country, you use caution when using words of dissent. During times of war, you are even more cautious as not to embolden the enemy.


So if I don't like Iraq mission I'm not patriotic? If I denigrate Bush then I'm not a patriot?Would pat Buchanon, who opposes the Iraq war, not be a patriot?

[TheProfessor]

And then some. It means supporting your country too. You don't talk bad about instances like the Iraq war if you are patriotic unless you are absolutely certain you are right. Denigrate the reasons for war because you don't like the man or the mission is not patriotic. Unless you are absolutely certain you are right, you are a turncoat rather than a patriot.
So the benchmark for dissent is absolute certainty? That's absurd. I wish our government had obeyed that kind of edict before actually going to war. If they can't even get their intelligence right, what are people supposed to think when we roll into a sovereign nation?


That too is incomplete. It also means you follow the laws you disagree with. Work to change them, but follow the laws.
I assume you are familiar with civil disobedience, and its importance to the civil rights movement?


Definition; Patriot:

Devoted to the welfare of ones country.

If you care about your country, you use caution when using words of dissent. During times of war, you are even more cautious as not to embolden the enemy.
Or a person who regards himself as a defender of individual rights when the government infringes upon them, at the expense of his God-given rights. Dissent is a necessary aspect of patriotism, especially in this country, it is fundamentally what makes us a strong nation and people.

[fyatuk]

The civil war wasn't about slavery. It was about "States Rights," which happened to include slavery!

Now I would agree that present day people should not apologize for the sins of our forefathers. We had noting to do with it!

The war in Iraq is not about oil. It's about enforcing international agreements, possible threats to us, and liberation.

Very simplified explanation of both the Civil War and Iraq, but I agree with the fact that the civil war was not really about slavery and the Iraq war not about oil.

I certainly don't apologize for slavery either. It was a tragic thing, but no matter how you look at it, it had nothing to do with me.

[JoeChalupa]

Semper Fi!!

[boutons_]

"The war in Iraq is not about oil. It's about enforcing international agreements, possible threats to us, and liberation."

what total bullshit. 4000+ US dead, $2T wasted, with $Ts more planned for decades, no end, no "victory" in sight for those reasons?

fuck no, Iraq is exclusively about oil. All the other 'reasons" are strictly dishonest pretexts to go after the oil.

[Wild Cobra]

Because he's an excellent writer/commentator. Spend less time on the internet? I'd like to spend more time on the internet. It is inherently a well of information, a well so vast that one could never tap it. I enjoy all the information the well has to offer. I soak in hours and hours per day and it leads me to much more well rounded opinions. I do this mostly because I like being right all the time.
Internets getting old for me. I've been on it before it has it's current form. I think my oldest web browser in a 1992 version, called IBrowse for the Amiga.

I simply have better things to do with my time. The hour or so I spend a day is already too much.

[Wild Cobra]

and i thought you were pro first amendment. :rolleyes
Absolutely. However, I hold everyone responsible for their action and words also. We have the freedom to say as we want. However, slander can be prosecuted, and rightly so. We have used sedition laws in the past. Too bad we don't use them today.

[Wild Cobra]

So if I don't like Iraq mission I'm not patriotic? If I denigrate Bush then I'm not a patriot?Would pat Buchanon, who opposes the Iraq war, not be a patriot?
I don't use the beliefs as a qualifuer, but rather how one voices their beliefs during the ongoing events. However, technically, by unrevised definition... Those not supporting our military actions are not patriots. You cannot claim the badge by only fitting some of the requiremments. All conditions must be met. How can you be devoted to our country and speak ill of an ongoing effort?

Remember, I am one that uses old, unchanged definitions. Very few people will agree with me, but I accept that.

[PixelPusher]

I don't use the beliefs as a qualifuer, but rather how one voices their beliefs during the ongoing events. However, technically, by unrevised definition... Those not supporting our military actions are not patriots. You cannot claim the badge by only fitting some of the requiremments. All conditions must be met. How can you be devoted to our country and speak ill of an ongoing effort?

Remember, I am one that uses old, unchanged definitions. Very few people will agree with me, but I accept that.
You are not that old, and neither is your infantile notion of patriotism.



"The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else."

[Extra Stout]

You are not that old, and neither is your infantile notion of patriotism.
Theodore Roosevelt was a progressive freedom-hating Yankee. Had the Confederacy won like it was supposed to, WC's view of patriotism would have held, and we would have avoided so many problems over the past 140 years by not allowing citizens to question the government in wartime.

[inconvertible]

Constitutionalism.

[Wild Cobra]

You are not that old, and neither is your infantile notion of patriotism.
And what I said does not deviate from Theodore's quote...

I did use the qualifier that one must be right in voicing opposition. To oppose something that is right against the enemy emboldens them. To oppose our own wr9ogdoings is patriotic.

Granted. It's a hard line to find. It takes great diligence to understand the situation enough to be critical if one believes such. I am not saying that to feel we do wrong is unpatriotic. Just that in situations that our enemies would take someone's words and use it against us is real. That is why it is unpatriotic to speak out against ongoing situations unless you are certain the truth is on your side.

That is why I have called many of the democrats traitors. During a time of war, they use so called facts that are in dispute, and embolden the enemy.

[Wild Cobra]

Theodore Roosevelt was a progressive freedom-hating Yankee. Had the Confederacy won like it was supposed to, WC's view of patriotism would have held, and we would have avoided so many problems over the past 140 years by not allowing citizens to question the government in wartime.
Idiot Alert....

Care to explain how you extrapolate such a thing, or are you just practicing the art of propaganda?

[George Gervin's Afro]

And what I said does not deviate from Theodore's quote...

I did use the qualifier that one must be right in voicing opposition. To oppose something that is right against the enemy emboldens them. To oppose our own wr9ogdoings is patriotic.

Granted. It's a hard line to find. It takes great diligence to understand the situation enough to be critical if one believes such. I am not saying that to feel we do wrong is unpatriotic. Just that in situations that our enemies would take someone's words and use it against us is real. That is why it is unpatriotic to speak out against ongoing situations unless you are certain the truth is on your side.

That is why I have called many of the democrats traitors. During a time of war, they use so called facts that are in dispute, and embolden the enemy.

I am going to go out on a limb and say patriotism isn't that hard to define.

[Wild Cobra]

I am going to go out on a limb and say patriotism isn't that hard to define.
I think the definition I gave earlier is simple enough.


Definition; Patriot:

Devoted to the welfare of ones country.
So what does "devoted" mean... It means more than just love and respect, doesn't it?


Devoted:

Appropriated by vow; consecrated; ardent; zealous; strongly attached
And welfare?


Welfare (well and fare):

Exempt from misfortune, sickness, calamity, or evil; the enjoyment of health and the common blessings of life; prosperity; happiness; and well being.

Those are the proper, unbastardized definitions.

Explain to me how down talking our actions and leaders in a time of crisis, if not know to be true, can be considered patriotic?

To be patriotic is to be an ardent supporter to the nations well being. How does words of disrespect to the office of the Commander in Chief show patriotism to our friends and enemies?

Those of you liberals wishing misfortune to our president...

Can you call yourselves patriots by the above definitions?

[PixelPusher]

Explain to me how down talking our actions and leaders in a time of crisis, if not know to be true, can be considered patriotic?

To be patriotic is to be an ardent supporter to the nations well being. How does words of disrespect to the office of the Commander in Chief show patriotism to our friends and enemies?

Those of you liberals wishing misfortune to our president...

Can you call yourselves patriots by the above definitions?
How childish.

"Daddy scolded me for doing something wrong. Obviously, Daddy isn't devoted to my welfare! Waaaaahhhh!"

[Wild Cobra]

How childish.

"Daddy scolded me for doing something wrong. Obviously, Daddy isn't devoted to my welfare! Waaaaahhhh!"
Yes, yours is a childish example.

No relevance to the democrats politicizing against our president in a time of war. A parent is the authority. Congress is an equal branch, not superior to the presidency. They at least need to treat him with respect, and not orchestrate a losing scenario for war like they have been.

Those who have openly opposed our president in giving aide and comfort to the enemy are traitors. Not patriots.

Like I said before. It's fine to disagree. However, some things need to be kept at internal communications levels. Any time the democrats speak out against our president, the war, etc. The enemies make a big deal about it.

Democrats have caused the death of soldiers that otherwise would not have occurred! They continued over and over to call our presence in Iraq, and occupation. If we were occupied, we would fight back. Guess what. Iraqi's hearing such words from our own leaders, made many fight against Americans, that otherwise wouldn't. Part of the reduction of violence is because the truth is spreading. We ware there to rebuild their nation. Not occupy and steal their oil.

When you hear prominent figures say "We are there for oil" or cal us "occupiers," count on the enemies propaganda machine using that to their fullest to convince more people to join and kill more American soldiers.

Democrats and the media have so much blood on their hands, it's ridiculous.

[PixelPusher]

Yes, yours is a childish example.

No relevance to the democrats politicizing against our president in a time of war. A parent is the authority. Congress is an equal branch, not superior to the presidency. They at least need to treat him with respect, and not orchestrate a losing scenario for war like they have been.

Those who have openly opposed our president in giving aide and comfort to the enemy are traitors. Not patriots.

Like I said before. It's fine to disagree. However, some things need to be kept at internal communications levels. Any time the democrats speak out against our president, the war, etc. The enemies make a big deal about it.

Democrats have caused the death of soldiers that otherwise would not have occurred! They continued over and over to call our presence in Iraq, and occupation. If we were occupied, we would fight back. Guess what. Iraqi's hearing such words from our own leaders, made many fight against Americans, that otherwise wouldn't. Part of the reduction of violence is because the truth is spreading. We ware there to rebuild their nation. Not occupy and steal their oil.

When you hear prominent figures say "We are there for oil" or cal us "occupiers," count on the enemies propaganda machine using that to their fullest to convince more people to join and kill more American soldiers.

Democrats and the media have so much blood on their hands, it's ridiculous.
Invading Iraq in the first place is the prime factor in jihadist propaganda. Bush has so much blood on his hands, it's far beyond ridiculous.

And you completely missed the point Teddy Roosevelt was making.

[Wild Cobra]

Invading Iraq in the first place is the prime factor in jihadist propaganda. Bush has so much blood on his hands, it's far beyond ridiculous.
The propaganda was always there. The media just didn't have a republican president to blame it on before. It's the democrats that the Jihadists feature in their propaganda. They use the democrats own words!


And you completely missed the point Teddy Roosevelt was making.
I didn't miss any of the points. I fully understand and support them.


Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else.
Have I ever said not to speak the truth? No. I said to make certain you are right. Make sure your words are true.

We have just cause to be in Iraq. We would probably have more dead Americans if we didn't go to war. At least president Bush has accepted his role as Commander in Chief and tried to perform the task well.

"Nothing but the truth should be spoken"

How many time do I hear liberal lies about our president?

You guy's make me sick. Lie about him and call yourselves patriots... Give me a break...

[George Gervin's Afro]

I think the definition I gave earlier is simple enough.


So what does "devoted" mean... It means more than just love and respect, doesn't it?


And welfare?



Those are the proper, unbastardized definitions.

Explain to me how down talking our actions and leaders in a time of crisis, if not know to be true, can be considered patriotic?

To be patriotic is to be an ardent supporter to the nations well being. How does words of disrespect to the office of the Commander in Chief show patriotism to our friends and enemies?

Those of you liberals wishing misfortune to our president...

Can you call yourselves patriots by the above definitions?


I love my country and would lay my life down for her.

I guess I should also add that even though a president can make decisions that harm our country I just need to shut and play good citizien..Keep my mouth shut.

Simple enough.

[DarkReign]

I love my country and would lay my life down for her.

I guess I should also add that even though a president can make decisions that harm our country I just need to shut and play good citizien..Keep my mouth shut.

Simple enough.

Presidents of the past found that attitude borderline treasonous.

Sign of the times, I guess.

[clambake]

Explain to me how down talking our actions and leaders in a time of crisis, if not know to be true, can be considered patriotic?
a crisis created by the leader.


To be patriotic is to be an ardent supporter to the nations well being.
someone should have told bush that, because he has problems when he thinks alone.


How does words of disrespect to the office of the Commander in Chief show patriotism to our friends and enemies?
by promising our friends that we'll follow the path of truth and justice, and promise not to burden their people and countries with foolish and dangerous endeavors again.

Those of you liberals wishing misfortune to our president...
he can keep his money, just vanish.


Can you call yourselves patriots by the above definitions?
by definition, you're a minion.