Baylor Men's Basketball is Back

[AFBlue]

Maybe you all remember the horrible tragedy that Baylor went through just a few short years ago with the Dennehy murder and subsequent uncovering of illegal contributions to recruit and retain players. You might also recall that led to the basketball team virtually being dismantled, placed on probation, and having to forfeit its non-conference schedule for a season.

Well it's taken a couple years, but the Baylor Men's Basketball program has bounced back in a BIG way. Currently the Bears are 15-2, having only lost to Washington State (top 10 team) and Arkansas. It should also be pointed out that they're 3-0 in the Big 12 with wins over Iowa State, OK State, and Nebraska.

Obviously the road to March gets alot steeper from here and the Bears have a long way to go, but I thought it was worth mentioning...given where they've come from in such a short time.

I'm proud to say, as a Baylor Alum, welcome back Baylor Men's Basketball!

Sic 'em Bears!

[MajorMike]

Amazing. However, when they beat someone that won't finish in the bottom 5 of the B12 it will be more impressive.

[K-State Spur]

baylor joins the kansas teams as the only teams with a big 12 road win.

[AFBlue]

baylor joins the kansas teams as the only teams with a big 12 road win.

Their first since 2004 if you can believe it....

Capt Mike is right though, the Bears have yet to face a ranked big 12 opponent....until this upcoming Wednesday that is, when the Bears face the Aggies.

I'll be watching that game very closely to see how the Bears handle a better team. They've been a mixed bag thus far this year with several comeback victories but still a couple they let slip away (Washington St. in particular).

What's really important for me is that they're at least relevant again...maybe for the first time ever.

Now if we could only get that football program onboard.... :lol

[ReggieF]

A&M is in shambles right now, until Turgeon get the guys to start playign defense again we are in trouble and it would not surprise me to see Baylor come away with the win even with Drew's horrible coaching.

[K-State Spur]

somebody is going to have to explain the logic to me in that A&M is still ranked 16th and KSU is only receiving a few votes.

now, i'm not saying that KSU should be ranked (yet), but both teams have similar bodies of work and the saturday result makes the rankings illogical.

then again, this is basketball and the rankings are just for fun. could you imagine if a sport were dumb enough to use the polls to actually determine a champion?

[AFBlue]

A&M is in shambles right now, until Turgeon get the guys to start playign defense again we are in trouble and it would not surprise me to see Baylor come away with the win even with Drew's horrible coaching.

Not sure about his coaching, but I can vouch for his recruiting. :D And I'd say it's tough to bag on his coaching since this team is 15-2. :smokin

BTW, Baylor is #25 in the AP as of right now.

[ReggieF]

I will point to last year's Big 12 tourney game vs Texas as to his poor coaching, his offens eis basically elt his guards dribble around a chuk it from where ever, when the shots go in they are tough to beat but you can get beat easily on off nights, similar story this year vs. Wash St, Baylor had that game won and blew it thanks to Drew's tactical genius. That said he can recruit, although something iffy about him being able to get those guys in after being so terrible and the whole death of a player thing...

[AFBlue]

I will point to last year's Big 12 tourney game vs Texas as to his poor coaching, his offens eis basically elt his guards dribble around a chuk it from where ever, when the shots go in they are tough to beat but you can get beat easily on off nights, similar story this year vs. Wash St, Baylor had that game won and blew it thanks to Drew's tactical genius. That said he can recruit, although something iffy about him being able to get those guys in after being so terrible and the whole death of a player thing...


In general you need to be educated about Baylor Basketball, but here are some specific points where you're off...

1. Baylor often uses a four-guard lineup and runs much of their offense through their guards...that's true. But he's just playing to the strength of the team. He has one reputable low-post threat in Kevin Rogers and two "space-eaters" in Lomers and Diene that are absolutely pathetic offensively.

This weakness, in fact, is why I don't see the Bears going far in March if they're even able to get there. But they do have some VERY capable guards, any of which can light it up on a given night and propel this team to victory. Tweety Carter, Henry Dugat, Curtis Jerrells, Aaron Bruce, and freshman LaceDarius Dunn are all guards in the rotation and each of them is reliable.

Again, I understand that the Bears have a gaping hole in the frontcourt offensively, but that's the reason they rely so heavily on their guards...not because Scott Drew is some horrible coach.

2. I'm not sure what you're referring to with Drew being "so terrible", but I actually think that his ability to recruit in the face of all that adversity is indicative of just how good he is. In case you're mistaken, Dave Bliss was the coach that violated NCAA rules and was recorded telling his coaches to blame Dennehy's unclaimed money as "drug money". That wasn't Scott Drew.

In fact, the Baylor Men's Basketball team is still on probation and is probably investigated/watched closely by the NCAA for infractions. I don't think there's anything "fishy" behind his success as a recruiter. I think he pitched the "rebuilding something special" idea very well and apparently it has played.


I remember when this deal first went down, most people I knew said the program would NEVER recover. Because of Scott Drew and AD Ian McCall, an almost impossible turnaround has taken place...and in just a few short years. I'll give Scott Drew all the credit and none of the blame....he's earned my respect 10 times over.

[Brutalis]

mmm that road win was sweet for my pigs. keep doing good baylor, only makes us look better!

[MajorMike]

I am not trashing Baylor by any means, but they play junk ball, like what you would see at the Colvin. A team that runs up and down turning it over, tossing up shots, hoping that they can get a team to play their game. OSU is completely awful and darn near beat them there. OSU would have beaten them if they hadn't given in to the urge to play junk ball along with them - because OSU turns it over more than any team in the nation. You may say that this means they are good if they can make a team play their style of ball. Well maybe yes but maybe no.

Sort of like the Warriors. They play junk ball (but are actually pretty decent at it). Once someone comes along that plays consistently with structure or is better that their game than they are, they look like a bunch of goofs that just run around chunking shots and making turnovers.

BU had a poor ooc schedule, but not near as bad as atm's. Right now they are 28 on cbssportline (KU 4, UT 8, BU 28, uo 33, KS 37, atm 43, ttek 64). The only other sub-100 team is Mizzou at 88. They will most likley get waxed at atm, but if they play a close game it could help them tremendously. Follow that up with a home win over uo they could be sitting pretty. They only road north games they have left are @ KU (which would be a loss anyway) and @ CU. As of now, they have a 7-point home win over #111, an 8-point home win over #133, and a 2-point road win over #172.

arKy has a LOT of work to do. They lost to #98 SC and got run out of the gym to a #104 UGA. They have an evil stretch coming up.

[samikeyp]

After what they went through...I would love to see Baylor make the postseason, NCAA or NIT.

[ReggieF]

Baylor didn't go through anything, they helped cover up a murder for the sake of a bad basketball team, they should have been more involved in the whole Bliss thing and been quicker to act. They should have gotten a much stiffer penalty that the admittiedly harsh one they did get.

[K-State Spur]

Yeah. It's kinda tough to feel sorry for Baylor when their problems were of their own making.

[AFBlue]

Baylor didn't go through anything, they helped cover up a murder for the sake of a bad basketball team, they should have been more involved in the whole Bliss thing and been quicker to act. They should have gotten a much stiffer penalty that the admittiedly harsh one they did get.

What kind of crap are you spewing?

First of all, there were no cover-ups in the murder of Patrick Dennehy or the whereabouts of his dead body. Certainly, the University wasn't complicit in any kind of cover up of the sort.

Second, the restrictions and infractions had NOTHING to do with Dennehy's death, but instead were the result of an independent investigation that uncovered hidden payments, etc.

While I don't condone the action of giving illegal contributions to recruit or retain players, this sort of business happens in all sports of many schools all across the country.

The only reason that this was particularly stinging is because of the tragedy that surrounded the situation. And it was compounded by the fact that Dave Bliss, not the University President or AD or Assistant Coaches or anyone currently employed by Baylor, instructed his coaches to cover up the illegal contributions...not Dennehy's death as you claim.

Truly a despicable act on the part of Bliss to be sure, but there is no evidence that other University officials had prior knowledge of the illegal contributions or were complicit in any kind of cover up.

Again I have to remind you to be a little more educated on the topic before you speak about it. Did you not learn to do a little research between posts?

[ReggieF]

no pun intended but based on the infractions Baylor should have gotten the death penalty for the stuff Bliss was doing, there has not been that bad of cheating since the old SWC days.

[AFBlue]

Yeah. It's kinda tough to feel sorry for Baylor when their problems were of their own making.

I understand that like any other school that was penalized as a result of recruiting/retention infractions, Baylor had to pay its dues and was entirely responsible for what had taken place.

But, these problems were not of Scott Drew or the new AD's making. Drew came in the aftermath of this tragedy and worked within the boundaries of his limitations to build a program from the ground up. I'm just happy to see that he has been successful at bringing players in and turning around a program that was in the gutter just a few short years ago.

THAT is what I'm praising.

[samikeyp]

The current kids on the roster shouldn't have to pay for the transgressions of those who were there before. I agree with Tony. I am not talking about the recruiting infractions...I am talking about what the new coach and AD as well as these current kids are doing now.

Just don't beat the Horns. :)

[K-State Spur]

I understand that like any other school that was penalized as a result of recruiting/retention infractions, Baylor had to pay its dues and was entirely responsible for what had taken place.

But, these problems were not of Scott Drew or the new AD's making. Drew came in the aftermath of this tragedy and worked within the boundaries of his limitations to build a program from the ground up. I'm just happy to see that he has been successful at bringing players in and turning around a program that was in the gutter just a few short years ago.

THAT is what I'm praising.

I understand this. Just saying - from my perspective - I'm don't exactly see Baylor as this great 'feel good' story when they themselves dug the hole that they are trying to climb out of. (However, I'm the type of personality that believes the man who never got into drugs deserves more praise than the reformed addict, even if the latter is dealing with a higher degree of difficulty.)

Drew and the kids should be praised by Baylor fans for what they are accomplishing, but it's not like they were unjustly punished either. They were all well aware of what they were signing up for at this point.

[MajorMike]

Again I have to remind you to be a little more educated on the topic before you speak about it. Did you not learn to do a little research between posts?

I think they were referring to the fact that Bliss told players to make up a story about Dennehy being a drug dealer in order to pay for his tuition. The story was intended to serve as a cover-up for Bliss paying Dennehy's tuition. It also emerged that Bliss and his staff knew about rampant marijuana and alcohol abuse among Baylor players, but did not follow procedures for reporting failed drug tests. Then there was also the 'Stevens Party' at BU, and a couple other recruiting violations. All of which amounts either to gross negligence (if the school knew about any of it) or serious lack of institutional control (if they knew nothing about all this happening right under their nose).

Maybe you need to be more educated about the topic yourself, or at the very least don't omit very important parts of the story for your own benefit.

[AFBlue]

I think they were referring to the fact that Bliss told players to make up a story about Dennehy being a drug dealer in order to pay for his tuition. The story was intended to serve as a cover-up for Bliss paying Dennehy's tuition. It also emerged that Bliss and his staff knew about rampant marijuana and alcohol abuse among Baylor players, but did not follow procedures for reporting failed drug tests. Then there was also the 'Stevens Party' at BU, and a couple other recruiting violations. All of which amounts either to gross negligence (if the school knew about any of it) or serious lack of institutional control (if they knew nothing about all this happening right under their nose).

Maybe you need to be more educated about the topic yourself, or at the very least don't omit very important parts of the story for your own benefit.

I didn't omit anything and I didn't infer anything other than what was inherently implied. If he wanted to be specific about what he meant by cover-up, then he should've been.

In regards to the specific instances you brought up, I haven't denied that there was wrongdoing.

I put the actions behind the attempted cover-up of illegal tuition payments directly on Dave Bliss, which I highlighted in nearly every post on the subject.

Secondly, I understand the issue with ignoring drug/alcohol abuse and the other recruiting violations. I do agree that it constituted gross negligence on the part of the University.

I have NEVER condoned or justified any of the actions and believe that Baylor was justly dealt with as a response to the infractions. In fact, Baylor probably saved itself from the "death penalty" by instituting some self-imposed probation and not fighting the ban of non-conference games in 2005.

Regardless, all of this is missing the point of the thread...

I created it to say that I was proud that individuals (players, coaches, and the AD) not associated with the original scandal for undertaking such a rebuilding effort and turning around a program that was in the dumps...and again, I'm NOT saying that Baylor didn't deserve to lose all the scholarships, to get stripped of the non-conference games for a season, or to undergo a general probationary period.

Believe me, I'm knowledgeable on the subject. I attended Baylor when the whole scandal took place and was intimately familiar with the details.

[samikeyp]

Well for me, the more B12 teams playing well, the better for the conference.

[ReggieF]

The logic that the current student-athletes should not pay for past transgressions is not the way the NCAA operates, ask the kids at SMU if they should still be a bottom feeder b/c of the cheating that went on back in the day. The feel good story loses its shine a little when the program was so corrupt and should maybe not even be playing. Drew is somehow getting highly rated kids to come to what is a hell hole (Waco), I have a real hard time believing he is on the up and up. I guess time will tell.

[samikeyp]

The logic that the current student-athletes should not pay for past transgressions is not the way the NCAA operates.

I agree, but IMO that doesn't make it right.

[K-State Spur]

The logic that the current student-athletes should not pay for past transgressions is not the way the NCAA operates, ask the kids at SMU if they should still be a bottom feeder b/c of the cheating that went on back in the day. The feel good story loses its shine a little when the program was so corrupt and should maybe not even be playing. Drew is somehow getting highly rated kids to come to what is a hell hole (Waco), I have a real hard time believing he is on the up and up. I guess time will tell.

Truth be told, any basketball program that recruits top 150 players (and even many that don't) is not really on the "up and up."

[K-State Spur]

I agree, but IMO that doesn't make it right.

What other recourse should the NCAA take?

When you catch somebody, you have to hammer the school, otherwise there is absolutely no incentive for administrations to make sure that their programs are operating on the level. If all schools have to do is fire a coach and bring in new players to wash away the dirt, cheating would be even more rampant than it already is.

You can punish the coaches/players/boosters, but at the end of the day, that doesn't really send any kind of a message. Ultimately, it's the schools themselves that are responsible for the actions and representatives of their programs.

[samikeyp]

You are absolutely right. The NCAA did what it had to do. Doesn't mean I think its fair to the current kids.

[degenerate_gambler]

You are absolutely right. The NCAA did what it had to do. Doesn't mean I think its fair to the current kids.


Fairness is irrelevant. Scott Drew didn't put a gun to recruits's head's and say come to Waco or else. All those kids on the team right now knew what they were getting by accepting a scholarship to play for Baylor.

[samikeyp]

Its not irrelevant to me but that is just one person's opinion. You are right though, those kids knew exactly what they were getting into. I still feel that their success is a good story and good for the conference.

[AFBlue]

Baylor v. A&M tied through 4, yes FOUR, overtimes! This is NUTS!

Stay tuned for the final results...

[johngateswhiteley]

fuck baylor...this is complete bullshit. totally unacceptable Turgeon, what the fuck bro?

[AFBlue]

For those not following JGW's rant....

Baylor wins 116-110 in FIVE overtimes....longest game in Big 12 history.

[remingtonbo2001]

I miss Billy!

He had to leave for the Blue Balls up in Kentucky.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

You mean you miss Acie Law IV.

[remingtonbo2001]

You mean you miss Acie Law IV.

Yeah, him too!

[K-State Spur]

unbelievable...and it wasn't televised.

if turgeon lets this streak snowball like he did at WSU, A&M should make a change immediately. that would make 4 out of 5 years that he has overseen massive tankings to close out the season.

[Whisky Dog]

Wow, what has happened to AtM? Have they been Turgeoned?

[j-6]

Maybe you Ags developed some unexpected patience but I bet Billy Clyde would have this team in the top 10 no problem. It doesn't get easier with a trip to Stillwater and UT and OU next week. This effing sucks.

How the hell did A&M win the NIT tourney (with a throttling of tOSU for the crown) and then shit the bed against mighty programs like Tech, K-State, and Baylor? And save me the up-and-coming, top recruiting class, bazillion win coach excuses.

(By the way, I didn't see the game but c'mon, 23 missed free throws in a game that went to 5 OT's? Aggie basketball for me was a guilty pleasure once upon a time.)

[johngateswhiteley]

Maybe you Ags developed some unexpected patience but I bet Billy Clyde would have this team in the top 10 no problem. It doesn't get easier with a trip to Stillwater and UT and OU next week. This effing sucks.

How the hell did A&M win the NIT tourney (with a throttling of tOSU for the crown) and then shit the bed against mighty programs like Tech, K-State, and Baylor? And save me the up-and-coming, top recruiting class, bazillion win coach excuses.

(By the way, I didn't see the game but c'mon, 23 missed free throws in a game that went to 5 OT's? Aggie basketball for me was a guilty pleasure once upon a time.)


...i'm pissed, surprised, and confused. who knows whats going to happen the rest of the year.

[MajorMike]

Didn't Kstate and I tell you guys how Turgeon likes to fold his tent in the 2nd half of the season?

Oh, the inflamitory comments we took for that one.

[Doug Collins]

Didn't Kstate and I tell you guys how Turgeon likes to fold his tent in the 2nd half of the season?

Oh, the inflamitory comments we took for that one.

I don't know what the hell he is doing, especially after his "pity party" press conference he had the other day. He knew the types of expectations he was dealing with at A&M and he needs to start making some changes.

Maybe we can hire Acie Law.

[MajorMike]

I still honestly believe they were so suprised by Billy leaving that they completely jumped the gun and hired the wrong guy. Billy left on a Thursday and they hired Turgeon on Monday. Either they knew they couldn't get an established coach because of atm's poor basketball history or.... well they just threw a dart.

Turgeon is a nice mid-major coach. B12 basketball is far from mid-major.

[K-State Spur]

How the hell did A&M win the NIT tourney (with a throttling of tOSU for the crown) and then shit the bed against mighty programs like Tech, K-State, and Baylor?

We'll see on Tech, but right now KSU and Baylor are far better than anybody that A&M played in the preNIT.

[MajorMike]

Turns out if you look at the preNIT, none of the teams are very good.

[Doug Collins]

Turns out if you look at the preNIT, none of the teams are very good.

It just foreshadowed the teams that will be in the real NIT.

[MajorMike]

Nah, I bet ORU makes it to the NCAA and they didn't even win a game in it.

[ReggieF]

they were focused on beating O$U and couldn't worry about the NIT...

[Whisky Dog]

The UT - Baylor game was a pretty damn good game. I was looking forward to the back court matchup of Augustine/Abrams vs. Jerrels/Bruce. The big plus for Baylor was their ability to take Augustine out of the game for the most part until the last few minutes. The pluses for the Longhorns were Justin Mason taking Bruce out of the game by putting him in foul trouble and Mason/James taking Jerrels out of the game after the first 10 minutes of the 1st half. The kicker to the game is Baylor's big weakness - the front court. Gary Johnson absolutely abused the Baylor front court all game, and Johnson/James/Atchley worked them into the ground. I like Baylor but their frontcourt has to get better.

[IceColdBrewski]

Whoopsies


http://gary-parrish.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6271764/25215035



The NCAA has launched an investigation into Baylor coach Scott Drew and his men's basketball program because of the school's involvement in the recruitment of a high school player from Colombia, FoxSports.com's Jeff Goodman reported Tuesday night.

CBSSports.com has confirmed the story with multiple sources.

Drew could not immediately be reached for comment.

The development centers around the recruitment of Hanner Perea, a Class of 2012 prospect from Colombia who now plays at LaLumiere High in Indiana. According to the report, Baylor assistant Mark Morefield -- who was suspended from off-campus recruiting for phone violations this past summer -- sent "dozens" of text messages to Perea's AAU and high school coaches in July while they were coaching at sanctioned events, which is an NCAA violation. Among the texts was a message sent to LaLumiere coach Alan Huss that reportedly threatened to have Perea deported if the 6-foot-9 forward committed somewhere other than Baylor.

"I guarantee u if he does [commit to another school] he will be in Colombia for the spring and summer and next year," the text read, according to FoxSports.com. "Don’t forget it."

[DesignatedT]

Only a matter of time until Drew's recruiting tactics catches up to him. Now its all going to come raining down on the Bears.

To make things worse...


LaceDarius Dunn suspended indefinitely

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ESPN.com news services

WACO, Texas -- Baylor indefinitely suspended leading scorer LaceDarius Dunn on Tuesday after he surrendered to police to face an aggravated assault charge, in which he is accused of breaking his girlfriend's jaw during an argument last week.

LaceDarius Dunn
Dunn

According to Waco police, officers were called to Hillcrest Hospital on Sept. 27 to investigate an assault on LaCharlesla Edwards, 21, who had a broken jaw. Police said Edwards and Dunn, identified as her boyfriend, had gotten into an argument and that Dunn punched her in the face. She went to the hospital to seek treatment.

Bears coach Scott Drew said Dunn, a senior guard, "has been indefinitely suspended from all team activities." Drew confirmed that Dunn was in class on Tuesday morning and that he has not been suspended from the university.

Baylor said in a release that the university was working to gather facts and was fully cooperating with authorities. The school said there would be no further comment.

Dunn's attorney, Vikram Deivanayagam, confirmed that the Baylor guard was booked earlier Tuesday at the McLennan County Jail in Waco. An operator at the jail said that Dunn remained there on Tuesday afternoon, awaiting booking.

"We look forward to reviewing the file and working with the district attorney's office," the attorney said in a statement.

Edwards' lawyer, Jason Darling, said the victim and her family were "extremely disappointed" at the felony charge against Dunn. Darling said his client did not want to pursue charges and plans to file an affidavit of non-prosecution in an attempt to get the charges dismissed.

Darling acknowledged that Dunn did indeed punch his client in the face one time after "she got up in his face arguing."

In a statement released through Darling on Wednesday, Edwards said: "My family and I are deeply disturbed about the misinformation and half truths that are being reported by media regarding the incident with my boyfriend. He has never struck me during our long-term relationship. What happened on the night of September 27 was an accident and I went to the hospital for precautionary reasons.

"I never expressed any interest in pressing charges nor will I in the future press charges on this incident. I am fine and my jaw is not broken as is being reported. My family and I wish to put this situation behind us. Lace and I will continue our relationship and raising our son in a good environment. I respectfully request that the District Attorney's Office dismiss these charges, and further request that Baylor University lift their suspension."

Darling said he believed the case merited nothing more than a misdemeanor charge against Dunn based on the injuries his client sustained. He said she suffered "two minor fractures in her jaw" that were treated with "minor day surgery." He said there was minor swelling and that her jaw was not wired shut, and reports of loose or missing teeth were inaccurate.

Darling said his client has returned to her home in Louisiana. He said she was only visiting Dunn and is not living in Waco. The couple have been dating nearly a decade and have a 3-year-old son together, he said.

The woman's father, Charles Edwards, told The Associated Press from his home in Monroe, La., that his daughter didn't have a broken jaw and that "somebody down there is trying to make a story out of nothing."

The elder Edwards said his daughter was "laughing and giggling" when he went to Waco after the alleged attack.

"If something would have happened to my daughter, I would probably be in jail right now in Waco because I probably would have done something to that young man," said Charles Edwards, who said his daughter is in Monroe. "In this case, she said they were playing, and that's it."

Dunn was a second-team All-Big 12 pick while averaging 19.6 points and 4.8 rebounds last season when Baylor set a school record with 28 victories and got within one win of making its first NCAA Final Four appearance in 60 years. He set school records for points (704), 3-pointers (116) and free throw shooting percentage (85.7 on 126 of 147 free throws).

In April, two days after 6-foot-10 power forward Ekpe Udoh said he was bypassing his senior season at Baylor for the NBA draft, Dunn said he was staying. Udoh was the sixth overall pick by Golden State.

In 106 games over three seasons for Baylor, Dunn has averaged 16.4 points and already has the school record with 299 career 3-pointers, 91 shy of the Big 12 record. He is fourth in school history with 1,739 career points. He needs 451 points to surpass Terry Teagle as Baylor's career scoring leader, and 518 to pass Texas Tech's Andre Emmett for the Big 12 record.

[Blake]

it sure does seem like Baylor basketball got real good real fast in both the men and the women's side.

this might explain some things.

[JMarkJohns]

$$$

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

$$$

looks like you called it :lol

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

If not for fuckin Jamele Horne taking a fuckin free pizza, this would almost guarantee UA Lebryan Nash, but they don't have any scholarships to give out.

[JMarkJohns]

looks like you called it :lol

It's damn near impossible for a school with little tradition, a recent history of crime and tragedy and a Bible-belt morality to get this good this fast without it.

I have no direct proof, but I have sources, and my sources say $$$

[JMarkJohns]

If not for fuckin Jamele Horne taking a fuckin free pizza, this would almost guarantee UA Lebryan Nash, but they don't have any scholarships to give out.

Nash is a cog in this, though. Miller never gave the OK on Nash's recruitment, and I've heard it's because of $$$ ...

[The Reckoning]

atleast he spelled colombia right

[Thompson]

I wonder how long it will take for penalties to hit Baylor if the NCAA decides to crack down on them. They've got some pretty good incoming recruits I wouldn't mind seeing switch over to A&M (Jones, Isaiah Austin, etc.).

[JMarkJohns]

Shit's starting to stink...

The Cliftons: NCAA Hates Them, Baylor Loves Them

Thursday, October 21, 2010

In the last 24 hours, there have been two hot topics in college basketball - the news that the NCAA may eliminate the July recruiting period, and the announcement by big-time high school recruits Deuce Bello and Quincy Miller that they will play for Baylor.

Both of those hot topics revolve around Brian and Dwon Clifton.

So who are the Cliftons?

Brian coaches a prominent AAU team called D-One Sports. Dwon is his brother.

It all started in 2008 when Dwon was hired by Baylor as the team's director of player development, a position that was basically created by Baylor in order to give him a job with its basketball program.

The reason for that hiring? Scott Drew wanted to land No. 1 recruit John Wall.

Of course, it didn't work, as Wall decided he'd rather play for Kentucky. Meanwhile, Drew was stuck with Dwon, who stuck around until Wall left Kentucky for the NBA.

Then, Dwon decided to quit his job with Baylor to work for Wall in the NBA.

Isn't that ironic?

Brian was a certified sports agent. That already has been verified.

Brian claimed he would never profit a penny from Wall. Maybe he didn't, technically. But his brother is now working for Wall and profiting himself.

And it's not like brothers could share money or anything, right?

So there's no way an AAU coach, a college basketball program and money could all be intertwined, right?

Even though Brian coached Wall, Dwon was hired by Baylor at the same time Wall was being heavily recruited, Dwon left Baylor at the same time Wall left for the NBA, and Dwon now works for and profits from Wall, who played AAU basketball for Dwon's brother, there's no way all those things are related in any way, right?

Wait, how about this one? On NBA Draft night, Wall was at his agent Dan Fegan's house. Sitting there with them were Brian and Dwon Clifton.

How can an AAU coach be affiliated with a sports agent?

And nobody knows what Dwon's job title is. We just know that he works for Wall - more like he works for Fegan.

And if Dwon works for Fegan, that would be pretty far-fetched to suggest Brian works for Fegan as well, right?

Come on, get real. This is so obvious.

There is a reason why the NCAA hates AAU basketball and is actively working on eliminating it from recruiting. And there is a reason why Miller and Bello decided to choose Baylor today. It's the same reason all around: the Cliftons.

It all started in 2001, when John Calipari recruited DaJuan Wagner to Memphis and then hired his father Milt as the Director of Basketball Operations.

Wait a second. How that can be legal?

Well, it happened plenty of times since then. Kansas State assistant coach Dalonte Hill was Michael Beasley's AAU coach. Kansas State hired Hill as an assistant coach and then successfully recruited Beasley.

Before then, not many top recruits were choosing Manhattan, Kansas as a popular destination. But it's obvious why Beasley chose KSU, and that's because of Hill.

But the way it went down with the Cliftons raised way too many red flags with the NCAA. They had to do something about it.

The NCAA is unhappy with the way AAU basketball is conducted. Coaches love it because it gives them the opportunity to often see hundreds of games in a weekend in one venue. But it's too fishy for the NCAA's liking.

With so many scandals involving agents and money going down these days in college sports, the NCAA isn't happy about it. They want to eliminate agents and money from being involved in their organization. That may sound impossible to do, and it is.

But they had to something drastic. It just so happens that this is what they came up with.

How else are they going to eliminate an AAU coach from being hired by a school to recruit a player and then leaving the school to work for that player in the NBA?

The only way even remotely possible is to take AAU out of the equation. And this is the first and most drastic step in taking AAU out of the equation when it comes to recruiting. Will coaches still find a way to get information and keep AAU plenty relevant? Sure, but this is a huge step away from AAU basketball.

It's just so ironic that the same day this news came out, Bello and Miller decided to pick Baylor of all schools.

It's ironic because that same guy - Brian Clifton of D-One Sports - is Bello and Miller's AAU coach.

And that same school that Dwon was hired by two years ago to lure in another top recruit who played for D-One Sports - Baylor - is getting Bello and Miller.

So does that mean the Cliftons still have a strong connection with Drew and Baylor, even though Dwon is now working for Wall in the NBA?

It seems that way. And there is nothing the NCAA can really do to stop them, unless the NCAA decides to investigate and find out the obvious truth behind all of this.

Who wants to bet that when Bello and Miller reach the NBA they will hire Dwon and Fegan to represent them? It's inevitable.

Why would Baylor all of a sudden become a hotbed for elite recruits?

Why is the NCAA all of a sudden trying to eliminate AAU basketball?

It's because of the Cliftons, and they need to be stopped before college basketball is even more corrupt than it already is.

http://thehoopsreport.com/article.aspx?id=582

[AFBlue]

I think it's funny that the bump in this thread went from an investigation over a text message to JMJs "sources" and wild speculation about how Baylor got so good. I'll tell you how Baylor got so good...

They recruited who they could, exceeded expections, enjoyed some success and were able to build off of it for future recruitment. Players like Curtis Jerrells, Henry Dugat, Mamadou Diene...these guys weren't highly sought after top-level recruits. But, they were able to establish themsleves in the early years of the new regime and that helped Baylor re-establish itself. The first "big" recruit they got was Tweety Carter, who was an All-American SG but was also only 5'10.

Outside of Perry Jones, whom they recruited early on and who grew into his game, the Bears have enjoyed success with players that have not been in the top-tier.

[Obstructed_View]

As long as they don't accuse a dead kid of selling drugs to cover up their payments to him the current program is raising the bar.

[AFBlue]

As long as they don't accuse a dead kid of selling drugs to cover up their payments to him the current program is raising the bar.

Agreed...current Baylor program = RTB

[AFBlue]

And that article about the Cliftons is weak...Baylor saw a legal way to gain an edge on the competition for the #1 recruit in the country and program-changing player and they took it. The fact that it didn't work just shows you that the Bears weren't ready to bring in that level of a player. Maybe now with Perry Jones, they have arrived there.

[Blake]

I think it's funny that the bump in this thread went from an investigation over a text message to JMJs "sources" and wild speculation about how Baylor got so good. I'll tell you how Baylor got so good...

They recruited who they could, exceeded expections, enjoyed some success and were able to build off of it for future recruitment. Players like Curtis Jerrells, Henry Dugat, Mamadou Diene...these guys weren't highly sought after top-level recruits. But, they were able to establish themsleves in the early years of the new regime and that helped Baylor re-establish itself. The first "big" recruit they got was Tweety Carter, who was an All-American SG but was also only 5'10.

Outside of Perry Jones, whom they recruited early on and who grew into his game, the Bears have enjoyed success with players that have not been in the top-tier.

:lol

Who wouldn't want to go to Waco to play for scandal ridden Baylor?

basketball mecca of the world.

[AFBlue]

:lol

Who wouldn't want to go to Waco to play for scandal ridden Baylor?

basketball mecca of the world.

Do you think that shedding the situation in a negative light makes your position anymore concrete or valid?

I could do exactly the opposite...

Who wouldn't want to be a key piece to rebuilding a program from the ground up and being celebrated as one of the ones responsible when it is successful?

Truth is...everyone that was at the school left, it took a couple years to bring in anyone of real notoriety and the coaching staff lucked out with a couple recruits that overperformed against their perceived status in school (e.g. Jerrells and Udoh). So there were plenty that looked at the school just as you did and decided to pass.

The only thing that takes what's being investigated (improper contact via text) and turns it into what was being suggested (paying players to come to Baylor) is cynicism....and that's weak.

[DesignatedT]

Shit will come raining down on Baylor soon enough, maybe not just yet, but it will. Drew's established bad recruiting practices and a bad reputation with a lot of people, they are going to be keeping a close watch on that program now.

[JMarkJohns]

I think it's funny that the bump in this thread went from an investigation over a text message to JMJs "sources" and wild speculation about how Baylor got so good. I'll tell you how Baylor got so good...

They recruited who they could, exceeded expections, enjoyed some success and were able to build off of it for future recruitment. Players like Curtis Jerrells, Henry Dugat, Mamadou Diene...these guys weren't highly sought after top-level recruits. But, they were able to establish themsleves in the early years of the new regime and that helped Baylor re-establish itself. The first "big" recruit they got was Tweety Carter, who was an All-American SG but was also only 5'10.

Outside of Perry Jones, whom they recruited early on and who grew into his game, the Bears have enjoyed success with players that have not been in the top-tier.

I don't need to justify my sources to you. They've been dead on lately regarding recruiting for Arizona, who just so happened to share a recent recruit with Baylor in LeBryan Nash.

You can talk to almost any UA fan on this site. I've got connections and typically call things a day or two before the news breaks publicly via private message or profile message. But hey, discount me because you don't know me.

And I didn't bump this thread. Others did. I just jumped in with what I know. Shit's starting to snowball.

[JMarkJohns]

Outside of Perry Jones, whom they recruited early on and who grew into his game, the Bears have enjoyed success with players that have not been in the top-tier.

Are you familiar with just how difficult it is to pull in multiple 4-star/5-star classes in college basketball unless you're, 1. an all-timer type of program like Duke, North Carolina, Kentucky, UCLA, Kansas, etc... or 2. a cheating program?

Since Drew arrived, they've pulled in five recruiting classes with multiple 4-star recruits, with several including multiple top-75 types. All told, they've brought in 13 4-star top-100 recruits, including 10 top-75 and 6 top-50. Then this year's class and next year's class adds Perry Jones and Quincy Miller, two 5-star talents, and Baylor was firmly in on Nash, another 5-star.

You've hardly overachieved with a haul like that. Baylor's had some good success recently, but they've had a history of issues and are now linked to multiple more. It's not only the 5-star players with their hands out.

[Blake]

Do you think that shedding the situation in a negative light makes your position anymore concrete or valid?

I could do exactly the opposite...

Who wouldn't want to be a key piece to rebuilding a program from the ground up and being celebrated as one of the ones responsible when it is successful?

:lol

yes, why would anyone want to play for Duke, Kentucky, Florida or 90 miles south at UT when they can play at scandal ridden Baylor and be part of a rebuilding process?

I'm not slanting things to where it's just me putting the situation in a negative light. It is what it is.

Baylor got caught badly cheating and had SMU wondering how the hell they didn't get the death penalty........yet here they are just a few years later playing in the Elite 8.

I don't have any proof of yet that they been cheating to get these current recruits, but imo, that program smells like crap from 200 miles away.

[K-State Spur]

Shit will come raining down on Baylor soon enough, maybe not just yet, but it will. Drew's established bad recruiting practices and a bad reputation with a lot of people, they are going to be keeping a close watch on that program now.

Agreed, while everybody "cheats" to some extent - Drew is doing too much too quick. Evidently, he's too young to have learned anything from Steve Fisher.

And he's made too many enemies to fly under the radar. I know that Baylor fan has convinced himself that Drew is disliked because the old guard doesn't want a new player on the block, but we are seeing a similar situation at KSU and opposing coaches are practically falling over their own feet complimenting Martin.

Drew is disliked because he's a douche.

[AFBlue]

Shit will come raining down on Baylor soon enough, maybe not just yet, but it will. Drew's established bad recruiting practices and a bad reputation with a lot of people, they are going to be keeping a close watch on that program now.

We'll see...

[AFBlue]

I don't have any proof of yet that they been cheating to get these current recruits, but imo, that program smells like crap from 200 miles away.

Thanks.

[AFBlue]

Are you familiar with just how difficult it is to pull in multiple 4-star/5-star classes in college basketball unless you're, 1. an all-timer type of program like Duke, North Carolina, Kentucky, UCLA, Kansas, etc... or 2. a cheating program?

Since Drew arrived, they've pulled in five recruiting classes with multiple 4-star recruits, with several including multiple top-75 types. All told, they've brought in 13 4-star top-100 recruits, including 10 top-75 and 6 top-50. Then this year's class and next year's class adds Perry Jones and Quincy Miller, two 5-star talents, and Baylor was firmly in on Nash, another 5-star.

You've hardly overachieved with a haul like that. Baylor's had some good success recently, but they've had a history of issues and are now linked to multiple more. It's not only the 5-star players with their hands out.

I guess we'll see about the credibility of your sources if something does come out about Baylor paying players, because that's what you suggested. Their history of issues were tied to a different AD and a different coaching staff, and they aren't being accused of "multiple more", just sending a text to a recruit using some bullish tactics.

Either way, I'll issue an apology to every doubter in this thread if there is really an investigation and that investigation turns out to be money gifted to players.

[K-State Spur]

I guess we'll see about the credibility of your sources if something does come out about Baylor paying players, because that's what you suggested. Their history of issues were tied to a different AD and a different coaching staff, and they aren't being accused of "multiple more", just sending a text to a recruit using some bullish tactics.

Either way, I'll issue an apology to every doubter in this thread if there is really an investigation and that investigation turns out to be money gifted to players.

Every top 100 player (and many who are not) receives some kind of benefits for choosing a school - that's just how the slimy game is played.

So, if you get investigated, they'll find SOMETHING. The goal is to avoid being investigated in the first place. Hence the problem with Drew doing too much too quick, all while making enemies. He's drawing A LOT of attention to himself.

When a bunch of high profile players commit to a non-traditional power, to play for a coach who has no track record for producing a wide range of NBA talent (as of yet), plays primarily a zone (not what NBA scouts like to see), and displays questionable Xs and Os skill...well, it raises some eyebrows.

As is, from a competitive standpoint, I'm not terribly worried about Baylor's recruiting as long as Drew is the one coaching them.

[Blake]

Thanks.

Take off the green and yellow filter and you'll smell it too.

[Obstructed_View]

Shit will come raining down on Baylor soon enough, maybe not just yet, but it will. Drew's established bad recruiting practices and a bad reputation with a lot of people, they are going to be keeping a close watch on that program now.

I'll be pretty disappointed if they haven't been keeping close watch on the program ever since Drew came in. If the Baylor program's dirty, I hope they get everything they deserve, but until then I'm going to enjoy it. The good players have to go somewhere.

[JMarkJohns]

I guess we'll see about the credibility of your sources if something does come out about Baylor paying players, because that's what you suggested.

Didn't suggest. Directly stated. Just to clarify. Even if nothing comes of it, my sources are top notch, paid writers for recruiting sites with connections to AAU and high school coaches, players, handlers, parents and college programs.

Oh, and, BTW, I called Baylor as dirty months before these recent reports ever saw the light of day in this thread, which is why DoK responded with "looks like you called it" after my initial post of "$$$" in this thread. These recent reports are confirmation that my sources know what's what.

[AFBlue]

Didn't suggest. Directly stated. Just to clarify. Even if nothing comes of it, my sources are top notch, paid writers for recruiting sites with connections to AAU and high school coaches, players, handlers, parents and college programs.

Oh, and, BTW, I called Baylor as dirty months before these recent reports ever saw the light of day in this thread, which is why DoK responded with "looks like you called it" after my initial post of "$$$" in this thread. These recent reports are confirmation that my sources know what's what.

The recent reports suggest nothing about "$$$". The recent report (singular) is about a potential investigation over texts sent to a prospect.

[JMarkJohns]

The recent reports suggest nothing about "$$$". The recent report (singular) is about a potential investigation over texts sent to a prospect.

Read between the lines and trust what I'm saying (about many, many programs, but specifically, within this thread, of Baylor).


So there's no way an AAU coach, a college basketball program and money could all be intertwined, right?

...

With so many scandals involving agents and money going down these days in college sports, the NCAA isn't happy about it. They want to eliminate agents and money from being involved in their organization.

...

Brian Clifton of D-One Sports - is Bello and Miller's AAU coach.

And that same school that Dwon was hired by two years ago to lure in another top recruit who played for D-One Sports - Baylor - is getting Bello and Miller.

So does that mean the Cliftons still have a strong connection with Drew and Baylor, even though Dwon is now working for Wall in the NBA?

It seems that way.

Money goes beyond just recruits, including to handlers, and the Clifton's have successfully "placed" a few high recruits already and attempted to place at least one other. You can be damn sure the "$$$" makes its way to the recruits through a filtering system while they are at college, or, these eventual stars get discounted service/back-logged payment once they forgo college eligibility.

[JMarkJohns]

Hahahaha... It's OK. It sucks it happened, but I TOLD YOU!


Baylor freshman Perry Jones is suspended for Wednesday night's Big 12 tournament opener against Oklahoma and could be finished for the season, according to multiple media outlets.

The NCAA ordered the suspension for the rest of the season for Jones receiving improper benefits, according to multiple reports. Baylor is appealing the suspension, Yahoo! Sports reported.

Jones, who is averaging 13.8 points and 7.2 rebounds per game for the Bears, has been projected as a lottery pick if he opts to enter the NBA draft, so this could spell the end of his Baylor career.

Austin television station KEYE first reported the suspension.

[Kyle Orton]

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[Axe Murderer]

:rollin

[Kyle Orton]

You can talk to almost any UA fan on this site. I've got connections and typically call things a day or two before the news breaks publicly via private message or profile message. But hey, discount me because you don't know me.

Tbh, true story, I always get info from JMark about UA and it ends up being right, not that you needed me to tell you at this point :lmao

[JMarkJohns]

Reportedly one of the obvious benefits was Perry driving a nice new car around campus all season. For what it's worth, my source just said this is just the tip.

[Obstructed_View]

What I found interesting is that there were loans mentioned to his mother that "were paid back in a timely fashion". Since Jones hasn't gotten a job, where did the money come from to pay the loans back? I don't think the NCAA gives marks for good credit.

This is great timing for Drew and the Bears. They now have an excuse for failing so miserably to live up to expectations, as well as for rolling over like little bitches for Oklahoma.

[Thompson]

Reportedly one of the obvious benefits was Perry driving a nice new car around campus all season. For what it's worth, my source just said this is just the tip.

Do your sources indicate at all how bad this is likely to get (death penalty, etc.)?

Have you heard of any other programs that could be facing similar problems?

OV, I feel bad for you, but I have to admit I was glad Baylor wasn't making the tournament after turning a blind eye to Dunn's battery.

[Obstructed_View]

Meh, don't worry about me. The NCAA should be broken up.:lol

If Baylor fucked up, they deserve puhisnment as far as I'm concerned. They damn well should know better. They're lucky their probation from the Bliss disaster ran out last year. I don't know if that's the right word or not, but any infraction would have resulted in a harsher punishment. I didn't think they did anything all that wrong with regard to what Dunn did, and they preemtively suspended him, but the combined smell starts to mount if they were letting Jones drive around Waco in an expensive car. Also remember that Baylor was in the running for John Wall, when they were going to hire his coach or something, a pretty clear end-run around the rules. Any one thing individually can probably be overlooked by fans, but there are supposed to be compliance officers and people that know better.

I've long been on record saying that there was nothing improper about Baylor being chosen for the Big 12, but if they're turning out to be just as dirty as they were this soon after the Bliss thing, I'd like to see them booted.

[JMarkJohns]

Do your sources indicate at all how bad this is likely to get (death penalty, etc.)?

Have you heard of any other programs that could be facing similar problems?

It's a matter of finding the connecting evidence. It's not always easy as many programs have real good funnel systems to get the benefits from the university boosters to coaches to handlers/parents to the players. By the time the player sees something, it's tough to locate the origins. My guy says Drew is as dirty as they get, but he's smart as well. We'll see. I've been saying this for almost two years. Net entirely in this thread, but here and there on this site.

As for other programs, I have four off the top of my head that we've discussed, but the connections are as strong. Kentucky is one pretty obvious one, and we've both long discussed Self at Kansas. A few years back a rule was implemented that prevented parents from being hired by programs to attain players' services. Self had done this several times, most notably with Julian Wright's and Mario Chalmers' fathers. Later this rule was amended to include AAU coaches and HS coaches as both Self and Drew utilized the loophole. Self's connection with Townsend has also proven to be a concern.

[Whisky Dog]

Scott Drew is the clown prince of dirty tactics. Every aspect of his recruiting is filthy

[Obstructed_View]

Scott Drew is the clown prince of dirty tactics. Every aspect of his recruiting is filthy

If that turns out to be the case, especially after all the 'convincing guys to come be part of something special' shit, I hope they get crucified.

That said, your post still reeks of butthurt. ;)

[DMX7]

Scott Drew is the clown prince of dirty tactics. Every aspect of his recruiting is filthy

This.

Baylor isn't getting the death penalty though, and frankly, it doesn't deserve it when you consider how common this kind of thing is.

[Kyle Orton]

Baylor, even tho their program has been dirty in the past, shouldn't get the stiffest penalty if things are as bad as they could be. Drew should. The NCAA needs to start punishing coaches for recruiting violations not just programs, if it's bad enough they could make a great example of Drew with a 2-3 year ban and a warning that the next coach to be caught gets a lifetime ban.

[JMarkJohns]

The problem is, while this may only be the tip of the iceberg, unless the connections are made, the penalties won't be levied. I'd love to see Yahoo! sink their investigative reporters into the situation. There's been plenty of red flags within the last few years including the Cliftons, Dunn, Perry that it warrants the thorough examination.

[Obstructed_View]

Baylor, even tho their program has been dirty in the past, shouldn't get the stiffest penalty if things are as bad as they could be. Drew should. The NCAA needs to start punishing coaches for recruiting violations not just programs, if it's bad enough they could make a great example of Drew with a 2-3 year ban and a warning that the next coach to be caught gets a lifetime ban.

http://nbccollegefootballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/jim-tressel1.jpg

[Whisky Dog]

If that turns out to be the case, especially after all the 'convincing guys to come be part of something special' shit, I hope they get crucified.

That said, your post still reeks of butthurt. ;)

Rofl I have no reason to be butthurt, we beat Baylor both times this season.

Seriously though, I hadn't heard about all of the money changing hands until this broke, but what I had heard (through my father and other Texas HS basketball coaches) were the very personal and dirty tactics Drew uses in recruiting. He would tell recruits blatant lies about other programs and coaches in the Big 12 as part of a smear campaign. By all accounts Rick Barnes is a pretty classy coach and gets along with everyone, but even he can't stand Drew for the horrible lying and tactics he uses. Add that to this dirty money business and he's an overall nasty, nasty coach.

[Blake]

We all know drew is dirty.

So does baylor.

Fuck baylor. They deserve whatever theyve got coming.

[Axe Murderer]

tbh I know Perry Jones' AAU team that committed the penalty and their coach is up there with Drew as far as slimeball tactics go

lol Seawolves

lol Coach Lowe

[baseline bum]

LOL... I knew there had to be something under the table getting Jones to Baylor, just like there was when OJ Mayo skipped out on all the great programs to go to fucking USC. LOL, I can't wait to see how much Baylor had to pay Isiah Austin to commit there.

[JMarkJohns]

LOL... I knew there had to be something under the table getting Jones to Baylor, just like there was when OJ Mayo skipped out on all the great programs to go to fucking USC. LOL, I can't wait to see how much Baylor had to pay Isiah Austin to commit there.

Yep...

BTW, for UCLA fans just to now how good my sources are, my Cali guy says UCLA is in tight and is likely the program to land Shabazz Muhammed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbaMtkMeTrg&tracker=False), a top-5 prospect out of Las Vegas many consider one of the best scoring prospects from the west coast in years. I'll call it now based on his predictions in the past and say UCLA lands Shabazz. Will be a huge coup for UCLA when it happens.

A lot can change, but I'm 100% in my sources.

[baseline bum]

Muhammed would be nice since the Bruins haven't had a top-flight prospect like that since Jrue Holiday. I wonder how much they'd be paying, lol.

[JMarkJohns]

Muhammed would be nice since the Bruins haven't had a top-flight prospect like that since Jrue Holiday. I wonder how much they'd be paying, lol.

I've been told Shabazz is infatuated with a college that can fix his deficiencies, and he likes UCLA's defense, and it's recent history of sending guards to the NBA. It may be a one year fix, but he's a talent, and the fact he likes UCLA for defense seems to indicate he's buying into whatever Howland is selling.

UA fans needn't worry ;) We'll get ours.

[Obstructed_View]

Rofl I have no reason to be butthurt, we beat Baylor both times this season.

Seriously though, I hadn't heard about all of the money changing hands until this broke, but what I had heard (through my father and other Texas HS basketball coaches) were the very personal and dirty tactics Drew uses in recruiting. He would tell recruits blatant lies about other programs and coaches in the Big 12 as part of a smear campaign. By all accounts Rick Barnes is a pretty classy coach and gets along with everyone, but even he can't stand Drew for the horrible lying and tactics he uses. Add that to this dirty money business and he's an overall nasty, nasty coach.

The rest of your post notwithstanding. :lol

[Kyle Orton]

I can't wait to see how much Baylor had to pay Isiah Austin to commit there.
And Quincy Miller :lol

The silver lining is, these coaches like Drew and Calipari who use improper benefits and under the table shit to bring in 5 star recruits left and right never win shit, the recruits come in with a giant sense of entitlement and superiority complex due to the fact their coach paid them to play there, and the coach has no idea how to handle it.

[Kyle Orton]

By all accounts Rick Barnes is a pretty classy coach and gets along with everyone, but even he can't stand Drew for the horrible lying and tactics he uses.
Yeah um lets be honest here, there's plenty of truths that can paint Barnes in a negative image that even Larry Drew wouldn't need to make up lies about him. All he'd have to say is, "Rememba det year Rick Barnes had no idea how to utilize a really talented player, lol oh wait that's every year."

[baseline bum]

Gotta think they might have some buyer's remorse after Miller tore his ACL. Hopefully he can come back from it, as he was dominating at the U18 in San Antonio last summer.

[DesignatedT]

There's now direct evidence linking Drew to this yet but you'd have to think he was involved somehow. The guy is very shady and there is a reason that every other big 12 coach hates the guy. He is definitely doing something funny getting all these studs to commit there. Saying that, he can't coach worth a shit. Put Turgeon on that Baylor team and they are competing for the big 12 championship this year, just sayin.

[Obstructed_View]

There's now direct evidence linking Drew to this yet but you'd have to think he was involved somehow. The guy is very shady and there is a reason that every other big 12 coach hates the guy. He is definitely doing something funny getting all these studs to commit there. Saying that, he can't coach worth a shit. Put Turgeon on that Baylor team and they are competing for the big 12 championship this year, just sayin.

True dat.

[JMarkJohns]

There's plenty of evidence connecting Drew to this, such as seeing a kid like Perry driving a nice new car you know is not his, or one he can afford and doing nothing about it.

Knowing and ignoring to avoid connection is the same as putting the keys in his hands.

Like I said, my guy says Drew is dirty as they come, but smart as hell. You think he's going to have direct links? That's not how this works. Drew isn't putting the money in the kid's hands, nor is he the one making the phone calls to set up payment, but it's all happening on his watch and he's doing nothing about it. This is what happened at USC with both programs. Don't fool yourself into thinking that because Drew isn't signing the checks and is the blind eye that he's not the brains behind it all.

[brettn]

I'm kind of wary to jump to any conclusions as this might only be the first shoe to drop, but is this not eerily similar to the Cam Newton situation? He was allowed to play in the BCS title game because he supposedly had no idea his father was pimping his talents out to the highest bidder. Apparently Perry had no idea his mother sought a loan to pay her mortgage. I doubt either of them had "no idea" but the hypocrisy and timing of the suspension (day of the start of the big 12 tourney) is ridiculous. You could make a similar argument with the Ohio State players being allowed to play in the Sugar Bowl.

I'm not trying to be a homer and maybe the NCAA has information it hasn't released yet, but the NCAA needs to develop some consistency in handing out these suspensions instead of acting like money grubbing whores. It's a huge reason they've lost a ton of credibility in the eyes of alot of college sports fans.

All that being said, Baylor Basketball shit the bed this year and we probably weren't gonna do anything significant to boost our chances of making the NCAA tourney. Still sucks to have your best player taken away the day of and have no chance whatsoever.

[JMarkJohns]

Perry was driving a new car. Are you saying Perry had no idea he was driving a new car?

[Kyle Orton]

The NCAA is going to be more sympathetic towards a player who's the obvious Heisman choice making them tons of money than towards an oober talented player on a severely underachieving team with a coach that looks like someone talent should stay for away from. If Jones were having a POTY season and Baylor was a top 10 team, there's no way the NCAA does this.

[brettn]

Do you have a link to any story connecting him to driving a new car or is it just your sources? Not saying he was or wasn't I just can't find it anywhere.

And I already said I doubt he had no idea about the loans. Why would I think he had no idea he was driving a new car? If he was, it's obviously a stupid move on his and the program/Drew's part and might as well be a dead give away. My argument isn't that Perry is completely innocent, just that the timing of suspension is hypocritical when you take into account them allowing Cam and Ohio State players to play in money making bowl games. Expected, but still hypocritical considering the amount of information I've seen released so far. That could obviously change, I don't know what info they do or do not have.

[Kyle Orton]

Cam Newton has yet to be find in violation of anything, so that comparison makes no sense. If they pull a Reggie Bush with him and it turns out they with held information until they were done making money off of it, then it's something to bring up.

The OSU situation is extremely hypocritical and there's a reason people laughed at the NCAA's ruling "You're getting suspended, but you can play in the bowl :cry", so I agree there. Still, it's well known that the NCAA is always more willing to put off punishing an athlete/program it's making tons of money off as oppose to a program like Baylor people are already laughing at as a place talent goes to get wasted.

[JMarkJohns]

Do you have a link to any story connecting him to driving a new car or is it just your sources? Not saying he was or wasn't I just can't find it anywhere.

When will what I say be accepted because I say it?

Yes, it's my sources. I was told he was driving a "loaner" car from an agent with connections to the Cliftons.

Perhaps I'm wrong. If so, my sources are wrong. And, the nature of our relationship is they don't say something to me until they are certain. If I'm wrong, they are wrong, and my guy has yet to be wrong to me. This is the same guy who gave me a bunch of recent UA news, which DoK will vouch for as being timely and accurate.

EDIT: A new article is reporting its the loans from the mother. I'll talk to my source again and see what he has to say about the car. It'd be hilarious of Perry allowed to escape from that.

[JMarkJohns]

As far as the loans, while Perry may not be connected, but Amare was never gonna be allowed to play college ball because his mother took a $1000 gift from a Nike rep. The fact Perry wasn't the primary recipient isn't the key. It's that his commit to Baylor was influenced by paid off individuals of consequence like a mother and AAU coach. Fruit of the poisonous tree.

[Kyle Orton]

Tbh you might think JMark is the typical "I have sources cause im teh awesome" internet douche who makes stuff up to try and sound important, but everything he's ever told me about U of A recruiting has been true, a lot of which has been well in advance of it becoming news. On top of that he also has some kind of info on how a players pan out. I remember him telling me Derrick Williams would be by far UA's best player before his freshman season started when people were calling him a "waste of a scholarship".

The most recent example, Arizona's newest recruit, Angelo Chol, committed on February 17th. Sometime in January, iirc, he sent me a PM saying Chol will be announcing his commitment on February 17th. Not around or anytime then or after, ON February 17th. I'm pretty sure this was before Chol announced he was having a press conference on February 17th to announce his commitment so that date wasn't mainstream news, and at the time most still considered Washington the favorite to land him w/ his official visit to Washington coming up. Basically, telling me that when he did means he actually has a source or he's incredibly lucky.


EDIT: If I didn't have to take a test in 45 minutes, I'd share more examples right now, but this thread alone is evidence if you read through it.

[brettn]

Cam Newton has yet to be find in violation of anything, so that comparison makes no sense. If they pull a Reggie Bush with him and it turns out they with held information until they were done making money off of it, then it's something to bring up.

From what I understood the NCAA didn't find Cam in any violation because he "didn't know" about his father's actions. Every report I've read says the same about Perry "not knowing" about his mother's loans, yet he's somehow found in violation of accepting improper benefits. That's why I made the comparison between the two.

I understand the rule and I understand the NCAA being sympathetic to a program/player that's bringing in the money, but it doesn't make it any less hypocritical is all I'm saying.

[brettn]

And I'm not calling you or your sources wrong Johns, I just think if the car thing is true it's something that should've been reported by the NCAA when levying their suspension, no?

[JMarkJohns]

I'm not trying to kick fans while there down. I responded to this thread because I and my sources were called into question within it. I wouldn't have responded this way had such not occurred.

I don't know everything. My sources don't know everything. But they've been accurate enough, with several of them telling me that Drew and Baylor were dirty two years back. I've discussed such in private message a few times with certain people, which is why DoK initially said "looks like you were right" when I posted "$$$" in this thread several months back.

My guy says this is the tip, that a lot of what's going on isn't going to be exposed this immediately, but that it runs deep and the shit stinks. I've linked to multiple articles after my claim in this thread that came out in backup of what I've said.

Anyways. Sucks for fans. UA went through something like this recently, albeit through misunderstanding, not intentional benefits. It can hit hard, which, I would expect it to. When my guy says Perry is driving a new car provided by an agent with connections to the Cliftons, whom the NCAA already made a ruling against and greatly dislike, I trust him. This is starting to follow the pattern of USCs issues.

[JMarkJohns]

And I'm not calling you or your sources wrong Johns, I just think if the car thing is true it's something that should've been reported by the NCAA when levying their suspension, no?

This is fair to ask. I broke the news of what my source suspected it was before anything was known about what the benefit could be. My source said it. I went with it. As it turns out, he may be accurate about the goings-on, the event itself wasn't what caused the ineligibility.

As for us knowing everything about everything because it's obvious, Perry isn't the first nor last big-name recruit to drive a fancy new, agent/booster-provided car, and we hardly ever know who they are.

[JMarkJohns]

From what I understood the NCAA didn't find Cam in any violation because he "didn't know" about his father's actions. Every report I've read says the same about Perry "not knowing" about his mother's loans, yet he's somehow found in violation of accepting improper benefits. That's why I made the comparison between the two.

I understand the rule and I understand the NCAA being sympathetic to a program/player that's bringing in the money, but it doesn't make it any less hypocritical is all I'm saying.

There's a difference.

Nothing was found that the Newtons ever received any of what they were allegedly seeking. In this instance, benefits were proven to have been received. So, despite not knowing, similar to Newton, Perry's situation is completely different.

[brettn]

There's a difference.

Nothing was found that the Newtons ever received any of what they were allegedly seeking. In this instance, benefits were proven to have been received. So, despite not knowing, similar to Newton, Perry's situation is completely different.

Gotcha. I was under the impression the father HAD received payments. Obviously misremembered the details of the story I guess.

[MajorMike]

From what I understand, there is some worry as to how long this has been going on and exactly when things started (if there are other, and many think there are) and did it occur when Baylor was still on penalty before? If you recall, NCAA started looking into BU in Sept or Oct of last year.

For certain, the other schools are jumping at the chance to again label BU as a cheater and force their program back down. This could be much bigger than people imagine.

[JMarkJohns]

This could be much bigger than people imagine.

Yesterday I broke the news as it broke nationwide. I made the first post before the first story was even ready and available on internet sites. I edited in the content minutes later to include info from first breaking article. I then broke news that Perry is driving a nice new car and that it was just the start. Within two hours news broke that included links to questionable loans/questionable payments to loans. Most recently I discussed that the rumored car Perry is allegedly driving was supplied from an agent with connections to the Cliftons, whom I have spoken of before and linked an article on how they were hired by Drew and Baylor to help land Wall, and, while unsuccessful there, Baylor has landed several highly-touted prospects by them. This was all on top of an original investigation regarding tactics used in recruitment.

At this point I find it hard to believe anyone is blinded enough to imagine that this isn't bigger than they have imagined.I mean, how the hell else is an above-average team with an average coach and a crappy tradition with a recent history of penalties and crime, not just landing 5-Star talents, but landing them YEARS in advance?

[Axe Murderer]

This could be much bigger than people imagine.

I agree.

This has "SMU in the late 80's" written all over it.

[Obstructed_View]

There's a difference.

Nothing was found that the Newtons ever received any of what they were allegedly seeking. In this instance, benefits were proven to have been received. So, despite not knowing, similar to Newton, Perry's situation is completely different.

I'm on the record saying if they cheated then fuck them, but I thought the rules stated that soliciting funds was the same violation as actually receiving them, just as someone soliciting funds on your behalf is the same as you soliciting them.

[JMarkJohns]

I'm on the record saying if they cheated then fuck them, but I thought the rules stated that soliciting funds was the same violation as actually receiving them, just as someone soliciting funds on your behalf is the same as you soliciting them.

Not sure how this works. It sounds accurate, but I'm not certain.

[Obstructed_View]

BTW, it turns out his mom borrowed 1000 dollars when Perry was in high school to make rent, which she repaid, and has nothing to do with Drew. The car rumor is just that. So much for using a Baylor fan site as your "source".

[JMarkJohns]

BTW, it turns out his mom borrowed 1000 dollars when Perry was in high school to make rent, which she repaid, and has nothing to do with Drew. The car rumor is just that. So much for using a Baylor fan site as your "source".

What are you talking about? My source is a person, not anyone on a message board.

If it's a rumor and independent of Drew, then it sucks for me, but I'm going with what my source says 100% of the time. Looks like we both jumped the gun a bit on this, which speaks more to us than the credibility of the information.

You've known me a long freakin' time. Do I seem like the type to just be a douche for being a douche? I understand people questioning me who have not known me over a six year period on this board, but not from you. But I get it. When you claim to have sources, you get only a few chances to prove it. You're not a recipient of my other information. Cool...

Note when I said, "Car" and when they did.

[Obstructed_View]

No, you've never been a douche, which is why I accepted your information even though I didn't like it. Several pages of declarations by others how this confirms how dirty they've all known Drew and Baylor to be all along deserve a bit of a rebuke when the original information is revealed to be completely false. The car rumor was on the Baylorfans.com thread and nowhere else, so it certainly looks like the person that told you about it got it from there or fed it to them.

The ESPN article mentions that all of this took place before Jones was at Baylor, that Jones knew nothing about it, that Baylor knew nothing about it, that the AAU coach has no link to Baylor, and that the sudden declaration of eligibility goes against precedent.

Does any of this mean that Baylor and Drew aren't dirty? Nope, but it certainly means that a lot of asshurt Big 12 fans who think they're always entitled to be good and that Baylor's always required to suck should get their facts right. Aplogies that you were the catalyst for some of that, particularly if my post came across as overly harsh, but the whole situation is a bit frustrating. I'm glad Baylor was underachieving so badly this year that Perry's suspension gave them the excuse they needed to fold up the tents and go home, but that doesn't make the suspension just.

If Baylor are breaking the rules to get blue chip athletes, then they're the stupidest school in history and deserve to have the term "institute of higher learning" stripped from their description and the entire athletic program shut down. Until then, I'm still rooting for them. :)

[JMarkJohns]

Thanks... FWIW, my source has the connections through recruiting ties, and isn't the type to feed message boards info. My trust in him says there's something there, but this shit can be exaggerated to the point where whatever is true is overshadowed by the rumor. I broke the news when I was given it, which was hours before an other details emerged. I hate to think I may have contributed to the process. I would not have said it if I thought it was mere speculation. Not my style.

[Obstructed_View]

True, and again, my apologies for being a little harsh with my Michael Irvin "Print the retraction on the front page" rant. :lol

BTW, if your source is in recruiting, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he hates Scott Drew.

[lazerelmo]

PJ3 is coming back... Sick'em Bears.

[JMarkJohns]

Am I gonna have to be the jokester?

Perry didn't want to take the paycut :D

[Kyle Orton]

Why the fuck is Perry Jones going back to school? He won't even be eligible...

[lazerelmo]

5 games suspension and some chump change. He'll be reinstated.

[Axe Murderer]

Good to see him come back to college where he can improve because he definitely has some stuff he needs to work on before making an impact on the NBA.

However, I wonder how much one could improve being around a guy like Scott Drew

[Kyle Orton]

Nobody improves with Scott Drew as his coach.

[brettn]

He definitely has some things in his game he needs to work out. Needs to beef up a little and be more aggressive on the offensive end. Hopefully he'll get that chance without Lace there jacking up terrible shot after terrible shot. Oh and any sort of consistent PG play would help him out as well. Good news for us Baylor fans obviously, hopefully we can rebound next year.

[lazerelmo]

Can I get a witness?


http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/Goodman-early-preseason-Top-25-for-2011-12-042511

"Chemistry — and leadership — will be the key since there will be no shortage of talent on this roster."


http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news;_ylt=Arsw8WzXKdXqK8h4mu.Z0b_evbYF?slug=jn-king_College_hoops_teams_on_rise_042711

"No team in the Big 12 will be able to match Baylor’s talent."

[Kyle Orton]

Yeah, um, what's your point? Baylor's roster is gonna be oozing with talent this year like it is every year? Talent has never been Dew's problem, it's been the fact he's a shitball coach who can't utilize talent to save his life.

[lazerelmo]

Yeah, Hopefully he will under utilize it like he did in '10.

YOU MAD?

[Blake]

I'll be mad if it turns out that Baylor really is as dirty as most of us think they are.

[Kyle Orton]

Yeah, Hopefully he will under utilize it like he did in '10.

YOU MAD?

You're kinda proving my point by using the one season where they actually met (didn't exceed, just met) expectations as your best example.

[lazerelmo]

2010 first Elite 8 appearance in over 50 years. Pretty sure they exceeded some expectations there.

[Axe Murderer]

sons that's pretty gay that Jones is only staying because of his girlfriend

especially considering she's some short pig on the women's basketball team that's not even remotely attractive. black people are so weird

[Kyle Orton]

rofl that'd be hilarious if Jones dating Brittney Grinder :lmao

[Axe Murderer]

rofl that'd be hilarious if Jones dating Brittney Grinder :lmao

tbh I take it back, its not the one i was thinking of. she's not a fat pig but another ugly girl on the basketball team, hard to tell these gorillas apart

lol at turning down millions of dollars to be fucking this thing

http://www.irvingweekly.com/irving_images/stories/odyssey_sims.jpg

[Kyle Orton]

:lmao

[DesignatedT]

tbh I take it back, its not the one i was thinking of. she's not a fat pig but another ugly girl on the basketball team, hard to tell these gorillas apart

lol at turning down millions of dollars to be fucking this thing

http://www.irvingweekly.com/irving_images/stories/odyssey_sims.jpg

:lol

[Blake]

Maybe you all remember the horrible tragedy that Baylor went through just a few short years ago with the Dennehy murder and subsequent uncovering of illegal contributions to recruit and retain players. You might also recall that led to the basketball team virtually being dismantled, placed on probation, and having to forfeit its non-conference schedule for a season.

Well it's taken a couple years, but the Baylor Men's Basketball program has bounced back in a BIG way. Currently the Bears are 15-2, having only lost to Washington State (top 10 team) and Arkansas. It should also be pointed out that they're 3-0 in the Big 12 with wins over Iowa State, OK State, and Nebraska.

Obviously the road to March gets alot steeper from here and the Bears have a long way to go, but I thought it was worth mentioning...given where they've come from in such a short time.

I'm proud to say, as a Baylor Alum, welcome back Baylor Men's Basketball!

Sic 'em Bears!

Solid thread.

Tech is tearing it up right now in bball recruiting. Thank you Baylor for being slimy.