Kidd-to-Mavs rumor

[ludda]

Reported on ESPN, a NJ newspaper and floating around Dallas radio:

"One scenario would have Kidd returning to Dallas, where he started his career, and probably would include another team. The Nets, the source said, would get Devean George, DeSagana Diop and draft picks. Jerry Stackhouse may have to be added to make it work financially, but there likely is more involved."
http://www.northjersey.com/sports/nets/14477137.html?c=y&page=1

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3219395
Legler talks about same deal ^



Seems like BS to me, but the rumor is catching wind. Kidd for Spares??

[monosylab1k]

gotta be bullshit. did someone tap into mark cuban's wet dream?

[Findog]

You couldn't post this here?

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85790&page=1&pp=20

So we give up a good interior defender and only roll with Damp at center to bring back a 35 yr old PG making a lot of money and who can't play defense anymore. I would be shocked if this happens. The Mavs are always mentioned as a destination because of C Cuban's wheeler-dealer past when he first took over the team and because the Mavs are an elite team.

[Findog]

From the article:


One scenario would have Kidd returning to Dallas, where he started his career, and probably would include another team. The Nets, the source said, would get Devean George, DeSagana Diop and draft picks. Jerry Stackhouse may have to be added to make it work financially, but there likely is more involved.

And what is the source for this scenario? Did the writer visit RealGM's trade machine checker?

:lol

[u2sarajevo]

I think this is bogus.

[Findog]

Shit, I'd rather they do the KVH option and send that proposed contract to Miami for Shaq. But that would be contigent on Shaq accepting a buyout after the end of the season. I wouldn't want to be saddled with his contract.

[ludda]

Yes I forgot about the other Kidd thread. Oops.

Anyways if you don't do that for Kidd you're crazy. Thats junk for Kidd. And while I think this particular trade is far-fetched, I believe that the Mavs are one of the teams in talks with the Nets, haven't they been always interested in Kidd/ And if you're not even giving up your top 3 players.

[baseline bum]

Devean George and Diop? :lmao

I think Kidd's really overrated and all, but damn.

[Xylus]

Why would the Nets do this?

[Findog]

Yes I forgot about the other Kidd thread. Oops.

Anyways if you don't do that for Kidd you're crazy. Thats junk for Kidd. And while I think this particular trade is far-fetched, I believe that the Mavs are one of the teams in talks with the Nets, haven't they been always interested in Kidd/ And if you're not even giving up your top 3 players.

We don't get enough points from our centers, but they give us good defense. Without Diop/Damp, we're Phoenix. I would love to be rid of Stack's contract, but that's too much for just Kidd. He doesn't play defense anymore and he can't shoot from the outside. Plus there's his contract. I'd want Antoine Wright or Sean Williams thrown in too, but I don't know if that can work under the cap.

[itzsoweezee]

We don't get enough points from our centers, but they give us good defense. Without Diop/Damp, we're Phoenix. I would love to be rid of Stack's contract, but that's too much for just Kidd. He doesn't play defense anymore and he can't shoot from the outside. Plus there's his contract. I'd want Antoine Wright or Sean Williams thrown in too, but I don't know if that can work under the cap.

you must live in fairytale land

[DazedAndConfused]

I think Dallas has enough PGs, I dunno why they'd give up some valuable depth at the C spot to get another PG.

[ludda]

The PGs on the Mavs are more shoot-first, Terry and Harris. Kidd can dish the ball make life easier. It's not like he will be expected to be a scoring option on whichever team he goes to.

Maybe Terry is involved in the deal, don't see why they would want Stack. Even then, its robbery.

[Findog]

you must live in fairytale land

I think it's fairy-tale land to think the Mavs are going to trade away three rotation players for Jason Kidd when Devin Harris will be back in three weeks. We don't need Kidd -- Devin is a better defender and a better outside shooter. The only thing Kidd has on him is his passing skills and court vision. That's extremely important in a PG, but the financial ramifications and Kidd's age is why this isn't going to happen.

You tell me who is daydreaming.

[monosylab1k]

If this is a serious deal, then the Nets are goddamn fucking idiots.

And the Mavericks should do it in a fucking heartbeat.

this is JASON FUCKING KIDD. We're giving up spare parts and a center that has regressed beyond comprehension and is sucking so bad that I ACTUALLY PREFER SEEING ERICK DAMPIER IN THE GAME THESE DAYS. for one of the best pass-first point guards in NBA HISTORY. and we still keep Devin Harris and Josh Howard!!!!!! how the hell can any Mavs fan argue against this trade???!?!?!?!?!

[monosylab1k]

The only thing Kidd has on him is his passing skills.
and that's exactly what the Mavericks need. Along with Dirk pussing out, Terry playing like shit, no post presence, and so on, the biggest weakness the Mavericks have is that they don't move the ball nearly enough and rely way too much on iso plays. They won't win in the postseason unless they can get some ball movement going, and they have a chance to get one of the ultimate players at that skill.

[Findog]

Diop hasn't regressed, he's just in Avery's doghouse for whatever reason, just like Marquis was. 11 rebounds and 2 blocked shots yesterday against Denver. We're not getting 2002 Jason Kidd, and he makes way too much money.

[monosylab1k]

I'm sorry but didn't the Mavs pass on Shaq 3 years ago because he was "too old" and we'd be able to win a championship faster without some old guy with a bad contract? How did that one turn out?

And we would have had to trade DIRK in that scenario! In this one, all we do is give up some bullshit we don't even need!!!!!

[Findog]

He'll want an extension and he's 35 years old. I would only do it if there was some way to get Antoine Wright or Sean Williams as well. Offensive efficiency hasn't been a problem for us this year, our defense has regressed, and that's even with Diop. Take him away and we're Phoenix. This trade would solve one problem and create two others.

If you've got an idea to keep us from downgrading our interior D while still getting Kidd, then I'm all ears. Phoenix has a great distributing point guard and nobody who can defend on the low-blocks. That shit doesn't work in the postseason either.

[monosylab1k]

If you've got an idea to keep us from downgrading our interior D while still getting Kidd, then I'm all ears.
We'll still have Dampier, and I think Bass is more than capable of playing some minutes at center as well.

[monosylab1k]

but this trade is a pipe dream and will never happen.

[Findog]

I look at it this way: Our core has gotten us up 2.75 games to none in the Finals, and they fall short again, changes will be made in the offseason. Mono has been arguing for a shakeup and he'll get one if the Mavs finish short of a title this year. Given Kidd's age, the fact that he can't guard Nash, Baron, Parker or Deron, his improved distribution skills over Devin is not enough for me to make this trade. Diop is a limited, one-dimensional player, but he can defend opposing bigs, and that's huge. There's too much risk. The only upside for me is being rid of Stack's contract, but that's cancelled out by taking on Kidd. And if you have to throw in draft picks, forget it.

[ludda]

Nuggets are said to be very interested in Kidd as well. They (or the Lakers) could probably offer something more attractive if that really is the mavs deal.

[Findog]

Our PG situation isn't so bad that we NEED to make this deal. My wishlist includes another low-post back to the basket scorer, or an athletic swingman that would make Stack expendable.

[da_suns_fan]

I haven't seen a scenario where this even comes close to working under the salary cap. There would have to be another 13 million coming from the Mavs to make it work.

Am I missing something?

[Findog]

I haven't seen a scenario where this even comes close to working under the salary cap. There would have to be another 13 million coming from the Mavs to make it work.

Am I missing something?

The Mavs have Keith Van Horn's Bird Rights and can sign him to an expiring contract. He'd do it because he could make $$$ without leaving his couch and reporting to a new team, and that new team would have an expiring contract coming off the books.

[da_suns_fan]

The Mavs have Keith Van Horn's Bird Rights and can sign him to an expiring contract. He'd do it because he could make $$$ without leaving his couch and reporting to a new team, and that new team would have an expiring contract coming off the books.

I see.

[da_suns_fan]

Are you sure about that Findog? How long can a player be retired before losing his bird rights?

[Findog]

Are you sure about that Findog? How long can a player be retired before losing his bird rights?

http://dallasbasketballdotcom.yuku.com/reply/100848/t/Re-KVH-Expirer-details.html


I believe this is the first article where my invented term "Artificial Expiring Contract" was first used, and where the concept was explained. http://www.dallasbasketball.com/fullArchiveColumn.php?id=28

This is the article where the concept of specifically using KVH to invent that expiring contract as filler for a KG deal was mentioned.
http://www.dallasbasketball.com/fullArchiveColumn.php?id=2506

Now let me answer and clarify some of what has been said in the posts above.

1. HOW DOES IT WORK?

You take a player without a contract and send him in a sign-and-trade as filler to satisfy the trade-matching rules. Only one year has to be guaranteed, so the instant the ink is dry on the contract, it is an "instant expiring" and in its last year. In other words, it's perfect filler - especially when you can write the contract for the exact dollar amount (and no more) needed to satisfy the mandates of the trade rules.

Finding the right player? Ah, there's the catch. It's not as easy as it looks to find the (potential) guy like KVH.

2. IS IT LEGAL? (What about the rules saying "no circumvention" of the cap?)

The idea that this could in any way constitute "circumvention" of the cap rules arises from a misunderstanding of what the NBA means by circumvention. Circumvention is acting OUTSIDE the rules (particularly the cap rule) so that they don't apply. However, the rules are written in very strict legalese with the idea that as long as teams operate within the rules, they are free to use whatever wiggle room is given to them.

Signing KVH to an artificial expiring would be using some of that wiggle room. There is no cap avoidance - clearly Cuban would ramp up his cap and tax numbers considerably, if he chose to do such a thing, and the rules are written to dampen spending but never to forbid it. So if the teams want to spend their money in this fashion, it is permissible.

In addition, you see clear confirmation that this is very legal, because it has occurred and been approved in the past. The Mavs themselves used artificial expiring contract filler in the past, as filler in the Jamison-to-Dallas deal.

But there is one ultimate piece of evidence that this is not forbidden: such a trade concept was anticipated and rules written to govern it within the CBA!! The rule mandating that a sign-and-trade must be for 3 years with at least the first year guaranteed is an implicit recognition that teams will want to (and are allowed to) create contracts like these merely for trade purposes. As long as they follow those rules, there is no problem.

3. HOW DOES IT WORK WITH KVH?

KVH is relaxing with his family and has no Mavs contract. But technically, he is merely a player without a contract, eligible to be signed at any time. The Mavs, as his last team, happen to have Bird rights, which would allow them to go over the cap and sign him to any contract up to the max allowable amount for him. (See particulars in the link noted above.)

Therefore, if he is interested, the Mavs could sign him to a contract in a sign-and-trade, as filler for a deal. If he signs such a deal, he would be obligated to play for that team if they wanted him to, for the duration of the contract. But as noted above, it could be written in such a way where he has a pretty strong assurance he won't ever have to show up and will be getting a paycheck merely for signing. He'd also want to make sure it's a big enough financial package that if he has to get off his couch for a few months and actually play, it's still worth it to him.

4. WHY DON'T WE SE THIS HAPPENING ALL THE TIME? CAN'T ANY TEAM DO IT WITH ALMOST ANY EX-PLAYER?

Interestingly, there are far fewer ideal candidates for this than you'd think. The reasons are many ...
a If your last team doesn't have Bird rights (or Early Bird) on you, then it isn't a useful possibility because your old team can't sign-and-trade you for any deal bigger than the minimum.
b. Most players "retire" and thereby become ineligible to then be used like KVH is (in theory).
c. Base year restrictions can make a player unusable for such a deal.
Few players go straight from "big contract" to "not playing" - and instead go from big money to medium to small to no deal. Base year issues (where the new contract is more than a 20% raise over the last year of the last contract) change the dynamic and feasibility if they apply..
d. Some also get bought out from their big or their last deal. Others are waived. If a player was waived (a buyout is just a fancy form of a waiver) from his last deal, there is no "old team" that can use him this way.
e. If you are player like KVH where the last deal is huge, this sort of opportunity may be a windfall in excess of $10M and therefore you wouldn't mind being forced to go attend practices and games without playing. But if you're coming off a much smaller deal, you might have better deals awaiting (including an actual chance to play) by getting a contract with a new team and playing there.
f. Few players are willing to sit at home and turn down deals in hopes of being used in an artificial expiring that may never happen.

By the time you go down the list of who can't be used, you're not left with very many who can.

In addition, there is an even greater impediment to this practice than a mere lack of candidates. The problem is, it raises payroll. The artificial expiring typically would adds that much x 125% to a team's cap, because the owner has taken someone costing him 0 (for example, KVH) and signed him to a the smallest amount possible that will match up to 25% more payroll coming back from another team. With tax hitting so many teams, and so many more close to the tax line, few are in position to be open to adding more.

It takes the right team PLUS that team must have just the right player sitting at home. And then they have to be interested in a deal where they need filler, rather than having players already on their roster to send away.

5. CURRENT POSSIBILITIES

The KVH idea has now been mentioned in enough places that you'll see him mentioned regularly as one of the Mavs potential trade assets. (I think the discussion has even been repeated to the point where some writers and readers are thinking of him as a "player" who could fit in trade rather than as merely contractual filler.) Another player that could be used by their team in this fashion is PJ Brown.

There may be more, but those are the best two I can think of.

[Findog]

Apparently Van Horn never "officially" retired or submitted his papers to the League. Cuban told him to sit at home and there might be a payday waiting for him.

[TDMVPDPOY]

i think they should do the deal

then trade kvh to miami for shaq

mavs team outlook

snaq
dirk
josh
terry
kidd
dampier
flopper
scrubs

for the heat?
they get rid of snaqs contract, KVH contract has to be expiring, heat ends up with capspace....offer deng the max? wades team will end up like the team pre-shaq with odom/butler>deng/davis

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

And of course the Nets would be falling over themselves to give up Kidd for Diop and George, and some late draft picks. :lol

[ludda]

IMO: if mavs part with Harris+stuff, they are the favorites to get Kidd. If they do something around Terry/Diop/picks/whatever, they have a slim chance. I can't possibly see why Nets would take on Stackhouse. In the end, Kidd will probaby remain a Net.

[Findog]

If the Mavs hang on to Dirk/Howard/Harris, then their title window stays open for another 3 years after this one. That doesn't preclude moving Terry, Dampier or whomever else in an attempt to get better, if they can rid themselves of those contracts, but they're taking an awfully big gamble on bringing in Kidd. Diop is a limited, one-dimensional player, but he's important to us, and he'd have no value whatsoever to a rebuilding Nets team. Devin would have to be included in the deal to get Kidd, but he's BYC so it would take a lot more salary to match the $19 million Kidd gets. Stackhouse has a bad contract that I'd love to shed after this season is over, but he's come on strong after a bad start. You get rid of him too, and now we're missing needed scoring off the bench. And he's just like Diop in this equation: he's important to us right now, but what does New Jersey want with him?

We've been searching for a legitimate PG since Nash left,and Devin seems to have finally emerged. Kidd's salary comes off the books next year, and while there's no doubt he'd be reinvigorated in the short term by coming to Dallas, what happens next year if the Mavs refuse to extend him? This isn't a slam dunk that guarantees a title, so I'm not doing it if I'm Donnie.

[JamStone]

The "no circumvention" rule is also attached to Commissioner Stern and the NBA league office actually approving trades before they become official. If any of you believe that Stern would approve a trade involving paying KVH $10-15 million to sit on his ass for not retiring are just crazy. And, why would the Nets pay KVH $10-15 million to not play for them? That's just as crazy. Stern would still have to approve the trade. He wouldn't.

It's not just about whether it's legal or not. The League/Stern have discretionary power to approve trades.

[Findog]

And, why would the Nets pay KVH $10-15 million to not play for them? .

Because they wouldn't have to pay Kidd another $21 million next year? I'm pretty sure that Stern would never allow anything that benefits Dallas, but the whole point of the KVH thing is that it creates an expiring contract for a team trying to get cap space.

[Findog]

And here is how I feel about David Stern and how much integrity he has: to do this, the Mavs would have to sign KVH to a 3-year contract, but they would only have to guarantee the first year. Suppose they were able to write the contract up and do the trade in way that conforms with the way the CBA and the salary cap is written. You know Stern would reject the trade/contract on the grounds that it violates the spirit of the cap if not the letter and is thus an attempt to circumvent the cap. But if it were the Cavs or the Heat, and they attempted to do the same thing, you know he'd sign off on it.

[JamStone]

They'd still be paying KVH for nothing. They'd be paying Kidd $21 million next year for actually playing. Not every team owner is like Cuban and Dolan and willing to throw away money for the hell of it.

And, not approving the deal would have nothing to do with it benefiting Dallas. It would have everything to do with it essentially trying to circumvent the principles of the CBA. If it were a feasibly loophole, it would have been done by now.

[JamStone]

But if it were the Cavs or the Heat, and they attempted to do the same thing, you know he'd sign off on it.


No he wouldn't. The whole notion is obnoxiously opposed to the entire fabric of the CBA and what it's set out to do in terms of preventing these exact type of things from happening.

[Findog]

They'd still be paying KVH for nothing. They'd be paying Kidd $21 million next year for actually playing. Not every team owner is like Cuban and Dolan and willing to throw away money for the hell of it.

And, not approving the deal would have nothing to do with it benefiting Dallas. It would have everything to do with it essentially trying to circumvent the principles of the CBA. If it were a feasibly loophole, it would have been done by now.

I don't know how it would play out if the Mavs attempted to do it, but from the article:



The idea that this could in any way constitute "circumvention" of the cap rules arises from a misunderstanding of what the NBA means by circumvention. Circumvention is acting OUTSIDE the rules (particularly the cap rule) so that they don't apply. However, the rules are written in very strict legalese with the idea that as long as teams operate within the rules, they are free to use whatever wiggle room is given to them.

Signing KVH to an artificial expiring would be using some of that wiggle room. There is no cap avoidance - clearly Cuban would ramp up his cap and tax numbers considerably, if he chose to do such a thing, and the rules are written to dampen spending but never to forbid it. So if the teams want to spend their money in this fashion, it is permissible.

In addition, you see clear confirmation that this is very legal, because it has occurred and been approved in the past. The Mavs themselves used artificial expiring contract filler in the past, as filler in the Jamison-to-Dallas deal.

But there is one ultimate piece of evidence that this is not forbidden: such a trade concept was anticipated and rules written to govern it within the CBA!! The rule mandating that a sign-and-trade must be for 3 years with at least the first year guaranteed is an implicit recognition that teams will want to (and are allowed to) create contracts like these merely for trade purposes. As long as they follow those rules, there is no problem.


Maybe FromWayDowntown or somebody else could chime in, I am not a cap guru by any means.

[sribb43]

You couldn't post this here?

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85790&page=1&pp=20

So we give up a good interior defender and only roll with Damp at center to bring back a 35 yr old PG making a lot of money and who can't play defense anymore. I would be shocked if this happens. The Mavs are always mentioned as a destination because of C Cuban's wheeler-dealer past when he first took over the team and because the Mavs are an elite team.


are you kidding me...you wouldnt want to acquire Kidd bc you dont want to give up Diop :lmao

Diop is a nice piece on the mavs but its JASON KIDD..mavs can find a spare center on waivers or acquire a serviceable back up via trade. you dont say no to J Kidd especially when Diops in the deal

thats like the spurs saying no to Kidd bc they didnt want to give up oberto

[stretch]

I'm sorry but didn't the Mavs pass on Shaq 3 years ago because he was "too old" and we'd be able to win a championship faster without some old guy with a bad contract? How did that one turn out?

And we would have had to trade DIRK in that scenario! In this one, all we do is give up some bullshit we don't even need!!!!!
The difference is that Shaq played alongside another superstar in Miami. If he came to Dallas, there would have been no other superstar.

[monosylab1k]

The difference is that Shaq played alongside another superstar in Miami. If he came to Dallas, there would have been no other superstar.
No, we would have kept Nash if we traded Dirk for Shaq.

[stretch]

No, we would have kept Nash if we traded Dirk for Shaq.
Dude, they were asking for both Dirk and Nash. That's when Cuban backed out, and then Nash left for more money.

[monosylab1k]

Dude, they were asking for both Dirk and Nash. That's when Cuban backed out, and then Nash left for more money.
no, it was Dirk+filler for Shaq.

and we still could have kept Jamison if we wanted to.

[stretch]

That's how it started, but then at the last minute, they changed it to Dirk + Nash.

And Jamison + Shaq would not have been enough to win a title.

[nkdlunch]

because a PG is what Dallas needs :rolleyes

[baseline bum]

The "no circumvention" rule is also attached to Commissioner Stern and the NBA league office actually approving trades before they become official. If any of you believe that Stern would approve a trade involving paying KVH $10-15 million to sit on his ass for not retiring are just crazy. And, why would the Nets pay KVH $10-15 million to not play for them? That's just as crazy. Stern would still have to approve the trade. He wouldn't.

It's not just about whether it's legal or not. The League/Stern have discretionary power to approve trades.

Wouldn't Van Horn be ineligible to be traded for 90 days after signing that contract, unless he is traded by himself immediately? Don't see Kidd for Van Horn, straight up, going through. :lol

[Findog]

are you kidding me...you wouldnt want to acquire Kidd bc you dont want to give up Diop :lmao

Diop is a nice piece on the mavs but its JASON KIDD..mavs can find a spare center on waivers or acquire a serviceable back up via trade. you dont say no to J Kidd especially when Diops in the deal

thats like the spurs saying no to Kidd bc they didnt want to give up oberto


We wouldn't be getting 2002 Jason Kidd. We'd be getting a 35 year old Jason Kidd that can't shoot, not that he ever could, can't defend like he used to, is due $19 this year and $21 next year, and would probably want an extension. Sure, he might pick up his play in the short-term after a trade, but what happens if the Mavs refuse to extend him? He wants out of Jersey bc they won't extend him, not bc he wants one last shot at a ring. Given the way Devin has played this year, PG is not a problem. Kidd is still probably an upgrade over Devin, but not at the risk of downgrading our interior d. It isn't worth giving up Devin, and I don't know what kind of depth we'd be left with if we had to send four players to Jersey just to make the salaries match. There's no slam-dunk deal here.

[stretch]

is due $19 this year and $21 next year
Only 19 bucks? Sounds like a bargain to me... :smokin

[ludda]

"Privately, Kidd is telling friends that he wants to go to Dallas. He desperately wanted the Lakers’ trade to happen at last season’s deadline, but Thorn wouldn’t do it without prying away Andrew Bynum. This season, Kidd pushed to play with LeBron, but the Cavs don’t have enough to offer. Yes, Dallas makes the most sense for Kidd. He knows they need his leadership. He knows Cuban will absorb his contract. He knows that they’re the best chance he has to get out of Jersey and get a championship before he retires."

Now, the Nets are on a nine-game spiral, the franchise is unraveling and Kidd is getting louder about wanting out. The possibility? The Nets were telling people it was just 25 percent Monday, but the team is a dysfunctional mess. With the Feb. 21 trade deadline nearing, the Nets and Dallas Mavericks have exchanged several proposals, but it always comes back to the realization that they need a third team to make this happen. Dallas owner Mark Cuban refuses to part with Josh Howard. The Nets want a package that includes a good young player, an expiring contract, draft picks and cash.

Denver is intrigued with Kidd, too, and recently tossed out Allen Iverson’s name. The Nets aren’t going there with AI, and Nuggets executives are telling confidants that they’re out of the bidding for now because the Nets are asking too steep a price. Cleveland has offered every possible package, but so far there’s no scenario where Kidd could join LeBron James.

Back in the summer, Kidd considered it disrespectful that the Nets invested $61.8 million to keep Vince Carter without offering him his own contract extension. Kidd’s max-out contract expires at the end of the 2008-09 season and friction between him and management started when his request for a one-year, $13 million extension was rebuffed.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Aoj4ju36_p_Jw0dLsXSxFbW8vLYF?slug=aw-kidd012808&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

[Findog]

Can we stop the Kidd to Dallas bullshit?

http://www.mavsmoneyball.com/story/2008/1/29/173127/128


Stan McNeal of the Sporting News put together an idea for a Jason Kidd-to-Dallas trade that made sense to him:

To make the salaries match, the Mavs could offer Devin Harris, Jerry Stackhouse, DeSagana Diop, Juwan Howard and Devean George. The latter three all have expiring contracts, which would clear about about $5 million off the Nets' books this summer, free them of paying Kidd $21-plus million next season and give them a pair of solid guards in Harris and Stackhouse.

McNeal emailed Mark Cuban for his response, which was priceless:

"Step away from your crack dealer."

[Findog]

Here, let's throw some more cold water/common sense on the Kidd to Dallas talk:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=Sleepers-080129&campaign=rss&source=NBAHeadlines&univLogin02=stateChanged&action=upsell&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2finsider%2fcolumns%2fstory%3fcolumnist%3dholling er_john%26page%3dSleepers-080129%26campaign%3drss%26source%3dNBAHeadlines%26 univLogin02%3dstateChanged


Harris is out for the next couple of weeks with a bone bruise on his ankle, but he has put together a strong season as the Dallas point man, scoring 18.9 points per 40 minutes on a 59.2 TS%.

His play has been strong enough, in fact, that I'd like to throw out a heretical thought for you Mavs fans contemplating a Harris-and-change-for-Kidd trade: What makes you think having Kidd would be better?

Harris has a much better PER this season and wasn't much behind Kidd in 2005-06 (last season Kidd had a sizable edge, though). While Kidd is a great defender against big guards, Harris is vastly superior against the quick guards -- Tony Parker, Chris Paul, Steve Nash, Allen Iverson, etc. -- the Mavs are likely to be matching up against in the playoffs. Additionally, Kidd shoots 36.9 percent from the floor and 34.3 percent from 3, while Harris is at 48.3 percent and 35.7 percent from 3 … so whom would you rather have spacing the floor for Dirk Nowitzki and Josh Howard?

Kidd's major advantage over Harris is that he's an awesome defensive rebounder, but the Mavs already rank eighth in defensive rebound rate -- how much can he really improve that number? And to get those rebounds, they're giving up the whopping 6.8 points per 40 minutes advantage Harris has, not to mention picking up some extra turnovers (Kidd has been wildly turnover-prone, in what is one of the season's most underreported stories). And finally, remember that Dallas is one of the league's slowest-paced teams … so whom would Kidd be running with?

If I were Dallas, I'd make sure I remembered I'm not trading for what Kidd did over the past decade, but what he'll give me in the next three months … which I'm not convinced exceeds what Harris will do.

Everybody that wants this keeps saying "IT'S JASON KIDD!" Newsflash: It's 2008, not 2002.

[TDMVPDPOY]

dont forget his statpadding triple doubles are overrated that sometimes dont amount to wins.....

[Rip-Hamilton32]

dont forget his statpadding triple doubles are overrated that sometimes dont amount to wins.....
lol how can you say that its overrated just cause the rest of the team doesn't show up, there are alot centers in the league don't average 10 rebounds a game never mind a guard

[endrity]

It's true that one of our main weaknesses is ball momevement but there has been work with that this year. Devin's development is helping, especially since he can get into the lane so easily and then kick it back to open shooters.

However our main problem is shooting. We don't space the floor very well because we don't have shooters. Dirk is not allowed by Avery and only shoots from 15feet in. Jet has lost his touch a bit since going to the bench and everybody else is jut not very reliable.

I would love for us to try to get Redd. He has been said to be on the move. Dallas already signed him 4 years ago as a restricted FA but the Bucks matched, and they still have showed interest in him over the years. Redd would be the best addition we could do. I would like the idea of Artest as well. I know he is crazy and all, but good locker rooms have shown to influence these kind of people the right way. And Dallas has a good one. KVH's contract is a huge asset. Every team needs cap space. And the Kings might deal Bibby and K.Thomas to the Cavs soon, so they would be clearing quite a bit of space for this year and next. With Martin, Salmons, Udrih they have already guys who to build around.

[ludda]

More crazy Kidd rumors...

The Nets are discussing a complicated three-team scenario with the Mavericks and Blazers in which Kidd would go to Dallas, league sources said.

In return, the Nets would get back young players (Jarrett Jack and Travis Outlaw), expiring contracts (Devean George, DeSagana Diop), Jerry Stackhouse, draft picks and cash. More players, including other Nets, would be involved.

There are other willing trade partners and possibilities as the Lakers, Cavaliers, Nuggets, Spurs and Suns also would like to be in the Kidd sweepstakes.
http://www.northjersey.com/sports/nets/14896561.html

Vaughn for Kidd :smokin

[Findog]

How does it benefit Dallas to give up 4 players off our roster if Kidd is the only guy coming back? What kind of depth does that leave us with? Aside from a Kurt Thomas type, our biggest need would be for a 2-guard that can score - Avery has rolled out Eddie Jones, Devean George, Trenton Hassell and Maurice Ager at the 2 and none of them have been able to win the job other than Jones by default.

[ludda]

Would mavs really miss Stackhouse? I think they're doing fine without him now. George barely plays. (Doesn't he have to agree to the trade or something, not sure). Diop you can make a case for since Erica would be all you have at C. But Kidd is worth it. Other players are involved, I'm assuming Net scrubs. I don't see what benefit Portland gets out of this though.

In the end, I could see Kidd going to the Cavs. Lebron's pushing hard for that and they might put something around Gibson and whoever.

[Findog]

[QUOTE=ludda]Would mavs really miss Stackhouse?

I think he can help us come playoff time, but if the opportunity arose, I would get rid of that contract. Why New Jersey would take it on though, I don't know.

[KidCongo]

Nets get Gooden, Snow, Shannon Brown, Ira Newble, Damon Jones and 1st rounder

Cavs get Kidd and Magloire/filler

I mean Jersey aren't getting close to finals any-time soon, all of that Salary comes off within the next 2 off-seasons. They need to blow up and Gooden can score down-low for them even if he is a dumbass.

[KidCongo]

and this is a pipe dream of mine..

[JamStone]

Nets get Gooden, Snow, Shannon Brown, Ira Newble, Damon Jones and 1st rounder

Cavs get Kidd and Magloire/filler

I mean Jersey aren't getting close to finals any-time soon, all of that Salary comes off within the next 2 off-seasons. They need to blow up and Gooden can score down-low for them even if he is a dumbass.


So the Nets are supposed to trade Kidd for essentially a late first round draft pick? Yeah, that's appealing. :rolleyes

Kidd's contract expires the same time as Gooden, Snow, and Jones. So, the Nets save exactly $2.5 million in cap relief. Wow! Give up a $20 million contract and save 10% of it in cap relief????

Even if they liked Shannon Brown, they wouldn't have his Bird Rights because the Cavs waived those rights.

Your deal is basically Kidd for Drew Gooden for one and a half seasons and a late first round draft pick.

Good one.

[ratm1221]

I'll be so pissed if Kidd comes to Dallas.

[monosylab1k]

What kind of depth does that leave us with?
And just how important is our depth, really? Every year we say "our bench is so deep!" and come playoff time every year our tune changes to "what the fuck is wrong with the bench?????". depth is important only to spell guys during the regular season, but once it's playoff time, we're rolling with a 7 man rotation just like Phoenix is.

[BUMP]

i say we go ahead and do it. Stackhouse is valuable but he wont be around forever just like Kidd. the only risk im worried about is losing Diop, but i think that low post offensive skills are what this team desperately needs, and we arent losing much if any, if Diop leaves. i would do it.

[stretch]

Nets get Gooden, Snow, Shannon Brown, Ira Newble, Damon Jones and 1st rounder

Cavs get Kidd and Magloire/filler

I mean Jersey aren't getting close to finals any-time soon, all of that Salary comes off within the next 2 off-seasons. They need to blow up and Gooden can score down-low for them even if he is a dumbass.
I would love it if Dallas could make a move to get both Magliore and Kidd.

[sribb43]

I would love it if Dallas could make a move to get both Magliore and Kidd.

I can understand Kidd but Magliore, come on...it should tell you something if he cant get playing time on the Nets, a team that lacks size..heck even Jason Collins gets more clock than Magliore

[SenorSpur]

I'll be so pissed if Kidd comes to Dallas.

Why?

[monosylab1k]

I can understand Kidd but Magliore, come on...it should tell you something if he cant get playing time on the Nets, a team that lacks size..heck even Jason Collins gets more clock than Magliore
Brandon Bass couldn't break into the rotation for a mediocre team last year, and he's doing great for us. It all depends on the situation. Not saying they should go after Magloire, but just cuz he isn't doing anything for NJ doesn't mean he won't make an impact here.

[monosylab1k]

is there any fanbase more homeristic and delusional about their players than the Mavs fanbase? Only here can we pay a shit ton of money to Dampier and rationalize it by saying "he's an offensive rebounding specialist of course we need him!!!!!!!!!!!!". No wonder the majority of Mavs fans think Jason Kidd is a step down from Devin Harris for this season.

3 years from now Harris will unquestionably be better than Kidd. But what the hell does it matter if our window for a title is shut? WIN NOW.

[sribb43]

Brandon Bass couldn't break into the rotation for a mediocre team last year, and he's doing great for us. It all depends on the situation. Not saying they should go after Magloire, but just cuz he isn't doing anything for NJ doesn't mean he won't make an impact here.

Bass was in his 2nd year....Magliore has been in the league 10+ years, there is no upside

[sribb43]

is there any fanbase more homeristic and delusional about their players than the Mavs fanbase? Only here can we pay a shit ton of money to Dampier and rationalize it by saying "he's an offensive rebounding specialist of course we need him!!!!!!!!!!!!". No wonder the majority of Mavs fans think Jason Kidd is a step down from Devin Harris for this season.

3 years from now Harris will unquestionably be better than Kidd. But what the hell does it matter if our window for a title is shut? WIN NOW.


you want to win now you get Kidd..you want to win 55-60 games the next 3 or 4 years w/ no title dont acquire Kidd

[monosylab1k]

Bass was in his 2nd year....Magliore has been in the league 10+ years, there is no upside
But if we're losing Diop in the trade, getting Magloire will be tremendous. He has no upside, i agree, and he won't be anything special, but he'll fill that void at backup C.

[sribb43]

But if we're losing Diop in the trade, getting Magloire will be tremendous. He has no upside, i agree, and he won't be anything special, but he'll fill that void at backup C.

just to let you know, Magloire is one of the worst defensive centers in the league today

[sribb43]

forgot that Kiki now works for the Nets in the front office as a special assistant to Rod Thorn, maybe he would be doing the mavs a favor, much like Mchale did for Ainge in Boston

[monosylab1k]

you want to win now you get Kidd..you want to win 55-60 games the next 3 or 4 years w/ no title dont acquire Kidd
agreed. i know people will say "there's still no guarantee of a title with Kidd" which is absolutely true, but we're CLOSER. and we're closer RIGHT NOW.

Dirk is on the downside of his prime. I'd say he's got 2 more years to be a dominant player before he starts sliding. Not saying he'll ever be a bad player, just he won't be playing at the level he has for the past 3 years.

Howard is right at his prime. He won't be getting any better.

Other than Devin Harris & Bass, there really is zero upside on this team. This is about as good as this unit is going to get. And at their best, they've failed. Adding Jason Kidd can only make this unit better right now.

I'm sick of the playoff flameouts. Absolutely fucking sick of em. Call me crazy, but there's times where I almost prefer the 90's when they were awful. At least when they sucked, I didn't get a giant emotional stomach punch in May.

I'd rather mortgage the future for one final go-for-broke charge at a title, instead of watching more flameouts for the next 3 or 4 years.

[monosylab1k]

just to let you know, Magloire is one of the worst defensive centers in the league today
i understand that, but he's a big body that can play center. that's all i'm really looking for here. he won't get minutes in the playoffs, but it doesn't matter because we're going with a 7 man rotation regardless. all this talk of "depth" is way overrated. like i said, depth is advantageous only to spell your starters in the regular season - depth is meaningless come playoff time.

[stretch]

I can understand Kidd but Magliore, come on...it should tell you something if he cant get playing time on the Nets, a team that lacks size..heck even Jason Collins gets more clock than Magliore
Magliore has shown that he is capable of giving effective minutes, and if we were to lose Diop, I would at least want some kind of big man in return.

[stretch]

Bass was in his 2nd year....Magliore has been in the league 10+ years, there is no upside
Actually, this is his 8th season, and he has already actually proven himself to be a capable player. He even made the all-star team one year (although it was in a weak East, he still played pretty well)

[ludda]

On NBA fastbreak, they mentioned Harris in the deal (the 3 way with Portland). So Mavs would be giving up: Harris, Stack, George, Diop. THe trade works out with Harris going to Portland and Outlaw/Jack/Diop going to Nets. Anyways I didn't really listen but that's the main points.

But this is the same deal that Cuban reportedly said "step away from your crack dealer" to as Findog posted, so no Kidd to Dallas. I'm sure the trade is pending on if Mavs are willing to give up Harris. IMO Harris + Diop + Stack is quite a lot for Kidd.

[ludda]

Kidd with his BFF Lebron would be fun to watch, but too bad the Cavs don't have anything the Nets want.

[Findog]

Harris is not worth giving up Kidd period. Maybe all these Kidd knobgobblers should realize they're not getting vintage 2002 Jason Kidd, but the 2008 model with another 50,000 miles on the odometer. And most of the scenarios have Dallas sending 4 players to Jersey but getting only Kidd back. That would leave Jersey with 17 players on their roster, meaning they'd have to cut two guys but still pay them. Does that shit make sense? And you can forget about including Devean George in the deal. He gets to approve any trade involving him - doubt he'd rather play for NJ than an elite team in the West. Or the scenario sending Harris to Portland - we want to send our good young PG to a conference rival that already has Aldridge, Oden and Roy and deal with that for the next ten years?

Harris is not worth giving up for Kidd, this year or down the line. At this point in his career, I'd only want Kidd here if we can get a bargain for him. All of the vociferous Donnie/Cuban/AJ critics will get their roster shakeup wish if the Mavs have another playoff exit. Point guard has not been a weakness for us this year.

A 2-guard that is an upgrade over Hassell/Jones/Ager/George is our biggest need. Wrecking your cap situation and doing a major roster shakeup (necessary to match salaries) in mid-season in order to go from a Honda Civic (Devin) to a Honda Accord (Kidd) is nuts to me. When you're a team like the Mavs that has a decent chance to win a title AS IS, this seems like a major risk, at least the scenarios that have been posited.

:rolleyes

[monosylab1k]

All of the vociferous Donnie/Cuban/AJ critics will get their roster shakeup wish if the Mavs have another playoff exit.
By then will it be too late? With the emergence of Chris Paul and Gred Oden looming, the "we can shake things up later" theory might end up being too little, too late.

[da_suns_fan]

On NBA fastbreak, they mentioned Harris in the deal (the 3 way with Portland). So Mavs would be giving up: Harris, Stack, George, Diop. THe trade works out with Harris going to Portland and Outlaw/Jack/Diop going to Nets. Anyways I didn't really listen but that's the main points.

But this is the same deal that Cuban reportedly said "step away from your crack dealer" to as Findog posted, so no Kidd to Dallas. I'm sure the trade is pending on if Mavs are willing to give up Harris. IMO Harris + Diop + Stack is quite a lot for Kidd.

I would rather face Kidd than Jerry Stackhouse!

Stackhouse AND Harris?!!!

No way in hell that happens.

I have a little rule of thumb: If youre hearing about a trade rumor, there's no way its true.

99% of the trades that happen are the ones we never even heard of.

[monosylab1k]

This past summer Kidd was playing on a team of All-Stars and was arguably the best of the bunch. That's a guy who is over the hill?

[da_suns_fan]

I find it interesting that Kidd wants to be traded.

Some people blame the CBA and luxury tax for making it so hard to make trades these days. What about the players? Kidd wanted 20 mil a year? Fine. But he needs to realize that its damn near impossible to trade him unless its the final year of that deal.

[Findog]

He wants to be traded because Rod Thorn wouldn't extend him. He'll be 36 years old and his $21 million salary comes off the books after 08-09. That's why he wants out, not because he wants one last shot at a ring. What happens when the Mavs don't extend him? Does he half-ass it after the novelty of playing for Dallas wears off?

[da_suns_fan]

He wants to be traded because Rod Thorn wouldn't extend him. He'll be 36 years old and his $21 million salary comes off the books after 08-09. That's why he wants out, not because he wants one last shot at a ring. What happens when the Mavs don't extend him? Does he half-ass it after the novelty of playing for Dallas wears off?

I don't think Kidd ever "half-asses" it. EVER! He's almost averaging a triple double.

[ludda]

I would rather face Kidd than Jerry Stackhouse!

Stackhouse AND Harris?!!!

No way in hell that happens.

I have a little rule of thumb: If youre hearing about a trade rumor, there's no way its true.

99% of the trades that happen are the ones we never even heard of.

Did I say "OMG GUYS, Kidd is going to the Mavs!!!!"
No I just reported the rumors going around and the mavs are heavily involved in all of those. Almost every sports site has the Mavs involved in a 3 way trade to get Kidd. Just adding that in for discussion and seeing what other fans think.

[ludda]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3223513
Stein's update on Mavs-Nets-Blazers trade.

Now they say mavs will give up Harris, Diop or Bass +scrubs. Portland doesn't want to give up Outlaw (as I had said). Trades are stalled for now, would either happen soon or probably never.


HAHA Cuban is an idiot.

[monosylab1k]

IF the Mavs flame out again, I want all fellow Mavs fans to remember these two things - we could have had Kobe, and we could have had Kidd. The inability to part with Devin Harris appears to be what killed/will kill both of these trade scenarios.

I'm hoping the Mavs can do it all with their current roster, but I just don't see it happening. If it could have happened with them, it already would have.

But everyone praising the half a good season of Devin Harris like he's the second coming of Kevin Johnson better be prepared to eat massive shitloads of crow if the Mavs flame out again.

We could have had Kobe, we could have had Kidd.

[RonMexico]

That would be more lopsided than the KG deal.

[RonMexico]

But, but JET is such a clutch shooter!!

[ludda]

IF the Mavs flame out again, I want all fellow Mavs fans to remember these two things - we could have had Kobe, and we could have had Kidd. The inability to part with Devin Harris appears to be what killed/will kill both of these trade scenarios.

I'm hoping the Mavs can do it all with their current roster, but I just don't see it happening. If it could have happened with them, it already would have.

But everyone praising the half a good season of Devin Harris like he's the second coming of Kevin Johnson better be prepared to eat massive shitloads of crow if the Mavs flame out again.

We could have had Kobe, we could have had Kidd.

what makes you think Kidd will guarantee you a ring, if you're losing 3 key guys on your team. Kobe I can understand, Kidd ain't all that shit IMO. And then you have even less time to win it all.

Also you really think the Lakers were going to send Kobe to play with Dirk in the West for only Howard and Harris?? :smokin

[TDMVPDPOY]

cuban is going to give kidd the 20m extention the nets arent willing to give him which goes through 09/10