Change is in the air...

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Last year at the same time the Spurs were 30-13 but coming off a 97-93L at Utah (!). This was about the time that Pop benched Beno permanently, brought Jacque Vaughn into the rotation, and gave a speech to the effect that there would be no trade - the team would either sink or swim as constituted.

The Rodeo road trip was an inconclusive 4-4 against mediocre opposition, but it seemed to bring the team together for their 20-3 dash after all-star break, and we all know what happened after that…

However, this year does not feel the same as last year. The team has been beset by injuries which has broken their beautiful early rhythm into shards of Spursball, interspersed with long periods of stagnancy on offense and lacklustre defence. It looks as if father Time has finally caught up with this team. Pop is unusually calm and quiet on the bench as if confused about what to do next, but something needs to change if this team is to contend.

In this post I do not pretend to know better than those who run our beloved team. They know their stuff and have proven that time and again. But I have some ideas, and I'm sure you do too, and I think we should throw them out all out there.

1. sign Stoudamire and bench Parker whenever his heel is hurting.

Yes, we are talking about the guard who said that the Spurs would never win with Avery Johnson as point guard. Yes, I hate Mighty Mouse as much as the next man. However, he is the best available cheap point guard out there, and we have trade exceptions that he will probably bite on because he wants to win a ring. If Brent Barry wasn't injured, we wouldn't need another point guard as he/Manu/JV could take over the reins, but Barry's injury has really screwed the team’s balance.

Another alternative would be to put together some sort of package and have a go at trading for one of the good point guards available at the moment (Miller, Bibby, etc), but they are all paid far too much, and all we need here is a stopgap option to take some pressure off Parker.

2. offer Francisco Elson (and a second-round pick or cash if necessary) to Golden State for Mikael Pietrus.

The trade works monetarily and for both teams - the Spurs get a promising bench player, a three who can shoot from long-range and defend, and the Warriors get an up-tempo backup centre who can run the floor in their offense. At the moment all they have is Biedrins and Harrington, so Elson may be attractive to them. He is also an expiring contract if they want to let him go. http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=234~2173&teams=9~24&te=&cash=

That leaves us a little short on bigs, and maybe that means picking up a cheap FA (someone who can bang and rebound for 10 minutes a game), like Dale Davis or PJ Brown, for the minimum, or bringing in Mahinmi, and if so, so be it.

Pietrus will add scoring to the second unit in place of my next move which leaves Manu as the only scorer on the second unit.

3. move Udoka to the starting lineup and Bowen to the bench.

Now I know that this is going to cause many people consternation, but please read on. I am NOT saying that Bowen shouldn't play 20-30 minutes a night (he currently averages 30) - he should continue to do exactly that. However, the offensive doldrums that the team is suffering in most first quarters is largely to do with the fact that at the moment they are playing 3.5 on 5 due to Parker's injury and Bowen's complete shooting ineptitude. It has gotten so bad that other players will not pass him the ball any more unless they absolutely have to.

I would suggest that Udoka play the first six minutes of the game, in an attempt to get the team off to a good start, and then for the rest of the game he should come in as needed, with the starters or the second team (it doesn't matter). Udoka should play a minimum of 30 minutes a game as he is a good defender, a great rebound for his size, and tough as nails. More than that, he can hit the three and jump shots off the curl, and he gets offensive rebounds.

The reason I would not bench Finley instead of Bowen is that past experience has shown that his production evaporates when he is on the bench.

Finally, Bruce should continue to play at least half a game and rotate onto the hottest player on the other team. Hopefully, he can find his stroke again and be moved back to starting. Right now, he is killing us.

4. settle on a rotation!

All this musical chairs is not helping the players find any sort of rhythm. It's time to start cutting down from an 11 or 12 man rotation to 10 players. I would go with the following:

Oberto
Duncan
Udoka
Finley
Parker/Stoudamire (depending on Parker's heel on the day)

Ginobili
Bowen
Vaughn
Pietrus
Bonner


The only change would be to continue to play Horry for Oberto/Bonner sometimes during the road trip to see if he has anything left in the tank. If he continues to show nothing as he has been, he becomes insurance only.

I think 1 and 3 will happen (although it will probably be Finley or Oberto going to the bench for Udoka, depending on the team we are playing and whether small ball makes sense to Pop). 2 is unlikely given that at the very least Elson knows of the system, even if he doesn't use it very well. 4 has to happen, but the uncertainty about Horry is making it difficult.

Thoughts?

[lefty]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3221245

Source: Stoudamire to talk with Spurs, Suns as Celtics fade
By Chris Sheridan

The Boston Celtics were fading fast Tuesday as a possible next destination for soon-to-be free agent point guard Damon Stoudamire, ESPN.com has learned.




Stoudamire

Stoudamire, who would like to decide Wednesday where he'll spend the rest of the season, was expected to speak by telephone Tuesday with San Antonio Spurs coach Gregg Popovich and Phoenix Suns coach Mike D'Antoni, a source close to the situation told ESPN.com.



The Toronto Raptors also remained in the picture, the source said.



Although Stoudamire would seem to be the perfect fit for a Boston team needing an experienced playmaker behind second-year point guard Rajon Rondo, Celtics president Danny Ainge has expressed misgivings about tinkering with his team's chemistry.



Stoudamire has apparently taken that as a signal that the Celtics are not as interested in him as he had believed just a few days ago.



In San Antonio, Stoudamire would supplant Jacque Vaughn as a backup behind Tony Parker. In Phoenix, he would play behind Steve Nash and allow the Suns to move Leandro Barbosa to shooting guard from point guard when Nash is on the bench, and in Toronto he would give the Raptors some insurance behind Jose Calderon in case T.J. Ford is unable to return this season from his neck injury.



Stoudamire will be free to sign with any NBA team after he clears waivers at 6 p.m. ET Wednesday.



Chris Sheridan pretends to cover the NBA for ESPN Insider.

[Mr. Body]

Boston passing on Stoudamire seems foolhardy.

[ChumpDumper]

I missed the precise dates when Pietrus and Udoka became offensive juggernauts.

[MaNu4Tres]

For one,

Warriors just signed Chris Webber. I highly highly doubt they would trade one of their wings that are in the rotation for a big guy now that would ride the bench.

Secondly, the last thing Spurs need is to trade a Big for a wing. With Bowen Manu Finley Udoka and Barry theres only 96 minutes to go around at the position. You figure Manu gets his 31-33, Bowen gets his 28-30 that leaves another 27-30 minutes for Udoka Finley Barry. You can also add another 15-20 minutes to that thirty if they decide to go small for a portion of the game. Pietrus would not see the court over any of those players under Pop's obsession and trust in his veterans. So that trade would only make our depth of big men extremely thin. I really am appalled on how everyone is a Elson hater. The man gets the least opportunity than any of the big men. If your going to dog Elson you better damn well dogg Oberto, Horry and Bonner.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I was aware of the impending signing, and it makes good sense for us to give Parker more rest, but I thought I'd amalgamate all of the changes I'd make to the team into one post.

[ducks]

Boston passing on Stoudamire seems foolhardy.
why ?
if spurs are healthy they will kick boston's balls

they started hot and are not playing great anymore

[Ghost Writer]

I endorse everything that RuffnReadyOzStyle suggested in this thread.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I missed the precise dates when Pietrus and Udoka became offensive juggernauts.

They're not, but we don't need "juggernauts", we need guys who the rest of the team will pass to. Right now Bowen is a non-entity on offense because no-one trusts him enough to give him the ball, let alone shoot it.

The idea is to improve the poor starts by having Ime out there (he's shot 50% during January), and Pietrus can do similar things to Ime for the second team.

If Barry was around, Pietrus would be moot, but Barry's injury seems recurrent so Pietrus would be useful now and insurance for the future. What exactly is Fran offering???

[MaNu4Tres]

Even if Pietrus would be a better option than most of our wings. You as well as I know, when it comes down to playoff time, Pop will live and die with his veterans and give them the PT and benefit of the doubt before he puts the season in the hands of a Pietrus.

[Joe Schmoogins]

My Plan To Repeat

-get everyone healthy
-set the rotation

everything will fall in place

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

For one,

Warriors just signed Chris Webber. I highly highly doubt they would trade one of their wings that are in the rotation for a big guy now that would ride the bench.

Secondly, the last thing Spurs need is to trade a Big for a wing. With Bowen Manu Finley Udoka and Barry theres only 96 minutes to go around at the position. You figure Manu gets his 31-33, Bowen gets his 28-30 that leaves another 27-30 minutes for Udoka Finley Barry. You can also add another 15-20 minutes to that thirty if they decide to go small for a portion of the game. Pietrus would not see the court over any of those players under Pop's obsession and trust in his veterans. So that trade would only make our depth of big men extremely thin. I really am appalled on how everyone is a Elson hater. The man gets the least opportunity than any of the big men. If your going to dog Elson you better damn well dogg Oberto, Horry and Bonner.

Webber will be a be a bust in GS. He can hardly move, so how is he going to keep up with that team? However, you are correct that the Webber signing does reduce the likelihood of them wanting Elson.

As for your calculations of the swingman minutes, reduce Bowen's to 20 (but when he is on the court he goes full out), Finley plays 15 and Udoka 25. You also omit the small ball power forward minutes.

Horry has been horrible (personally, I think he's done as an NBA player), but I'll take Oberto and Bonner over Elson any day. Elson plays great in garbage time, but makes far too many mistakes to be a rotation player. Enthusiasm only gets you so far.

As I said in the OP, the Elson for Pietrus idea is unlikely to happen. However, it is also a move that looks ahead to next year and beyond - Elson is definitely gone (Splitter and Mahinmi will come in), so why not bring in a player who could be a part of next year's swing rotation (given that Finley and Barry will be gone, and Bowen on his last legs)?

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I endorse everything that RuffnReadyOzStyle suggested in this thread.

Thanks Casper, that makes me all warm inside... :lol :D

[ChumpDumper]

Right now Bowen is a non-entity on offense because no-one trusts him enough to give him the ball, let alone shoot it.So Bowen will never shoot well again? If we think he's that done, waive him.

Also I just don't see any reason for GS to get rid of Pietrus for Elson. They play Pietrus and they already have three big men who don't play for them.

But sure, try anything at this point. We're desperate.

[baseline bum]

I'd love Pietrus, but he would veto a trade here, since he would lose Bird rights in the deal (to a team with no capspace). Benching Bowen is a bad idea too. What's his use if he's locking down scrubs off the bench who aren't going to impact the game one way or the other?

I'd put Ginobili back in the starting lineup, because the team is getting killed to start games. This team moreso than any other in recent memory plays well from ahead and can't get over the hump when they get behind early. I'd also start Oberto, since he's the closest we have to a center right now. Platoon Elson and Bonner in the primary backup role, playing whoever did better in his first stint, and move Rob to the Steve Kerr role. He obviously doesn't have enough left in the tank to be a major rotation player, but he can still be very useful for short stretches. That, and say 100 Hail Mary's every day that Tony can be healthy enough and in shape for a deep playoff run.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

So Bowen will never shoot well again? If we think he's that done, waive him.

Also I just don't see any reason for GS to get rid of Pietrus for Elson. They play Pietrus and they already have three big men who don't play for them.

But sure, try anything at this point. We're desperate.

When did you stop reading what people posted?

"Finally, Bruce should continue to play at least half a game and rotate onto the hottest player on the other team. Hopefully, he can find his stroke again and be moved back to starting. Right now, he is killing us."

[Kori Ellis]

You are really overrating Udoka. Udoka has had a few good games but he's not worthy of playing 30 minutes a night on the Spurs. He isn't that good.

And it makes absolutely no sense to have Bowen not start. The best offensive player starts. You have to have your best defensive player in when the opponent's best offensive players. Bowen is still lightyears ahead of Udoka defensively.

If you aren't going to start Bowen, you shouldn't use him at all. He'd be useless off the bench. You might as well trade him.


Right now, he is killing us.

No, Bowen's shooting slump isn't the reason the Spurs are losing.

[Kori Ellis]

no-one trusts him enough to give him the ball, let alone shoot it.

False. He's averages just under 5 shots a game. Pretty much the same as he always has.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

False. He's averages just under 5 shots a game. Pretty much the same as he always has.

For the season, Kori, but recently he's hardly touching the ball. Shots for last 6 games: 4, 5, 6, 2, 2, 1. However, that's not an accurate representation of touches either. I've been watching closely and other players are thinking twice before passing to him in the last few games.

As I've already said, moving Bowen to "the bench" is more about the first Q than anything. He can play with the starters the rest of the game, just sit him for the first 4-6mins and put someone out there who can nail a jumper. Udoka can do that - he's shooting 50% this month. Also, he's a better rebounder than Bruce.

I concede that a lot of the slow starts are also down to TP's troubles, but we have to try something, and if you sit Finley you'll probably lose anything he has to offer.

The team is in a real bind. Like you, I really hope Bruce can at least find his corner 3 and offer the team something on O.

You think the D is what's losing games?

[ChumpDumper]

When did you stop reading what people posted?

"Finally, Bruce should continue to play at least half a game and rotate onto the hottest player on the other team. Hopefully, he can find his stroke again and be moved back to starting. Right now, he is killing us."So take Bowen out of the starting lineup just because of a temporary shooting slump?

Udoka is 0-4 so far this game and Bruce's +11 is the best on the team.

[Kori Ellis]

. I've been watching closely and other players are thinking twice before passing to him in the last few games.

I think you are seeing things.


As I've already said, moving Bowen to "the bench" is more about the first Q than anything.

Look for every star player to put up 15-20 in the first Q. :lol

It's just bad theory all around. You might as well trade Bowen if you aren't going to start him.

Anyway Udoka's 0-for-4 tonight so far. We'll see how it goes.

[SequSpur]

Whatever, this topic is a P E.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

So take Bowen out of the starting lineup just because of a temporary shooting slump?

Udoka is 0-4 so far this game and Bruce's +11 is the best on the team.

Come on CD, you're better than that. You can't judge it on one game - we're talking about a month here.

Sit him at the start of games to give the team a shot not to put themselves in a hole, then play him with the starters after that.

[ChumpDumper]

Come on CD, you're better than that. You can't judge it on one game - we're talking about a month here.

Sit him at the start of games to give the team a shot not to put themselves in a hole, then play him with the starters after that.So if Bowen is perfect from the field tonight with the highest +/- on the team and Udoka gets an 0fer, bench Bowen.

[lefty]

My Plan To Repeat

-get everyone healthy
-set the rotation

everything will fall in place

:tu

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

As I said in the OP, these are just ideas... maybe they're bad ideas, but I just don't think that standing pat is going to get us anywhere this year. Horry and Finley are really showing their age, Elson and Bonner have never adjusted to the system as we hoped they would, Tim doesn't get any calls any more, and Bruce is in a shocking shooting slump, not to mention injuries to TP and Barry.

Here's another idea:

5. pray, cross your fingers, slaughter some chickens and wallow in their entrails, do whatever you do when you rely on faith to get you through a tough situation, because without some sort of change that's exactly what we're relying on...

[ChumpDumper]

Bruce's shooting slump isn't shocking. It's just a slump.

Just propose a Bowen trade and get it over with.

[Kori Ellis]

I just don't get why you are so shocked by Bruce's shooting slump. I believe his shooting slump last season was two months. This season, he shot 48% (that's very good, by the way) from 3 in the month's of November and December. His slump has basically only been 12 games or so in January.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

So if Bowen is perfect from the field tonight with the highest +/- on the team and Udoka gets an 0fer, bench Bowen.

Should have happened five games ago, after the Bobcats game.

I am still saying he should play 24+ minutes, but maybe the change will do him good, and I still think he should play most of the game against the opponent's starters, just not those crucial minutes right at the start of the game when the team keeps putting themselves down by 8+ points.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Bruce's shooting slump isn't shocking. It's just a slump.

Just propose a Bowen trade and get it over with.

I'm not proposing a Bowen trade because I don't believe we should trade him. I think he will return to some sort of form. I'm operating on the theory that the change might help him, and he'll be back to starting after the all-star game.

Jeez, you are acting like I'm a Bowen-hater! I'm not in any way, shape or form, hell, he's in my avatar! I just think a minor shakeup might help him and the team.

[ChumpDumper]

If we want real scoring get a real scorer. Udoka is not that guy.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Kori, I know he shot very well to start the season (and you know that I know that 48% is exceptional).

Anyway, it's unlikely to happen so we may as well drop it.

The broader point is that standing pat is not only get us anywhere this year, so please tell me what you would do to give this team the jolt it needs to find some form - you too CD. After all, that was the point of this thread.

[ChumpDumper]

Trade two or three expiring contracts for a big man Pop will actually play regular minutes.

[Kori Ellis]

Kori, I know he shot very well to start the season (and you know that I know that 48% is exceptional).

Anyway, it's unlikely to happen so we may as well drop it.

The broader point is that standing pat is not only get us anywhere this year, so please tell me what you would do to give this team the jolt it needs to find some form - you too CD. After all, that was the point of this thread.

Standing pat would be perfectly fine if Tony Parker were healthy. The Spurs are going to get the jolt they need if he gets healthy. If he doesn't get healthy, they likely won't win a Championship. Unless the Spurs are signing a player that averages 20/6 and shoots 50%+ in 35 mpg.

Spurs games won - Parker 20.7 points - 52% from the field.
Spurs games lost - Parker 15.8 points - 42% from the field.

[Kori Ellis]

Trade two or three expiring contracts for a big man Pop will actually play regular minutes.

That would definitely help.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

If we want real scoring get a real scorer. Udoka is not that guy.

I never said he was - you behave like I don't watch the game or understand the game. Udoka can hit the three, and otherwise is a good standstill jumper shooter, and a garbage basket guy, just like Bowen is at his best.

The point was not that we need a "real scorer", but we do need to be playing five on five on offense to start the game so that the hole isn't too big to crawl out of. In his last 12 games, Bruce has scored 0 3 times, 1, 2 3 times, 3 twice, 6 twice and 7, which would be fine if he was playing any sort of a role in the offence, which right now he is not. He needs to be able to drill that corner three with some sort of regularity to be of any use to the team at the offensive end, and right now he's not even shooting it because he's so down on confidence.

Anyway, Bruce will continue to start because Pop trusts that he will break out of this slump, and I really hope that he's right. I'd switch things up for a few games, but what do I know?

[timmy21_4rings]

I missed the precise dates when Pietrus and Udoka became offensive juggernauts.

No you did not miss because they never came. He is talking about the offensive skills of Pietrus and Udoka vs Elson and Bowen. Hope you understand now

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Standing pat would be perfectly fine if Tony Parker were healthy. The Spurs are going to get the jolt they need if he gets healthy. If he doesn't get healthy, they likely won't win a Championship. Unless the Spurs are signing a player that averages 20/6 and shoots 50%+ in 35 mpg.

Spurs games won - Parker 20.7 points - 52% from the field.
Spurs games lost - Parker 15.8 points - 42% from the field.

I totally agree with that. But what do we do in the interim? Sign Mighty Mouse and hope for the best I guess...

[ChumpDumper]

No you did not miss because they never came. He is talking about the offensive skills of Pietrus and Udoka vs Elson and Bowen. Hope you understand nowI understand they aren't that good.

[Kori Ellis]

I totally agree with that. But what do we do in the interim? Sign Mighty Mouse and hope for the best I guess...

Tony might only be out a week or two (hopefully).

[timmy21_4rings]

I understand they aren't that good.

I understand Pietrus and Udoka are better than Elson and Bowen..

[ChumpDumper]

I understand Pietrus and Udoka are better than Elson and Bowen..Not really, but I understand people think they are 20ppg scorers. Oh, I meant have the skill set of 20ppg scorers.

[1Parker1]

I just don't get why you are so shocked by Bruce's shooting slump. I believe his shooting slump last season was two months. This season, he shot 48% (that's very good, by the way) from 3 in the month's of November and December. His slump has basically only been 12 games or so in January.


It's not so much that I'm shocked by Bruce's shooting slump, it's the fact that unlike last season his shooting slump seems to be disrupting and affecting the Spurs offense directly. Too often than not, I've seen Bruce pass on a wide open 3 pointer, attempt to drive it in the lane for a jumpshot which is not his forte and miss. I'd rather him pass the ball immediately if he's that hestitant to shoot from his fav spot. Combined with Finley's inconsistent shooting and Barry's injuries, the Spurs offense looks even more stagnant and one dimensional than I can recall in recent years.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Trade two or three expiring contracts for a big man Pop will actually play regular minutes.

Not really feasible though, because you still have to fill those roster spots.

Elson/Barry for Kurt Thomas? I think Barry is crucial to this team though... and what's in it for the Sonics?

[ChumpDumper]

Not really feasible though, because you still have to fill those roster spots.If that big man plays - who cares about filling the other spots? Call up a couple of Toros.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

It's not so much that I'm shocked by Bruce's shooting slump, it's the fact that unlike last season his shooting slump seems to be disrupting and affecting the Spurs offense directly. Too often than not, I've seen Bruce pass on a wide open 3 pointer, attempt to drive it in the lane for a jumpshot which is not his forte and miss. I'd rather him pass the ball immediately if he's that hestitant to shoot from his fav spot. Combined with Finley's inconsistent shooting and Barry's injuries, the Spurs offense looks even more stagnant and one dimensional than I can recall in recent years.

Exactly! Maybe I haven't been saying it well, but that's exactly what I'm talking about and have been saying the same thing in game threads all month.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

If that big man plays - who cares about filling the other spots? Call up a couple of Toros.

Fair enough, who should we trade for and who goes with Elson?


Not really, but I understand people think they are 20ppg scorers. Oh, I meant have the skill set of 20ppg scorers.

Who thinks that? Not me. I stipulated Udoka's offensive skill set in the OP - 3s, jumpers of the curl or standing still, O boards. He's basically a catch and shoot guy, but he does it well from mid-range too, unlike Bruce.

[ChumpDumper]

Fair enough, who should we trade for and who goes with Elson?I don't care which one they trade. None of those guys are worth keeping if it means getting back a decent big man.




Who thinks that? Not me. I stipulated Udoka's offensive skill set in the OP - 3s, jumpers of the curl or standing still, O boards. He's basically a catch and shoot guy, but he does it well from mid-range too, unlike Bruce.I didn't see him hit anything tonight.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I don't care which one they trade. None of those guys are worth keeping if it means getting back a decent big man.

So which big are you going after is what I'm asking?


I didn't see him hit anything tonight.

Why are you using dumbshit lowblow arguments with me, mate? Udoka's 38-74 or 51% in January. You can't judge anyone on one game and you know that as well as I do.

[ChumpDumper]

So which big are you going after is what I'm asking?Haven't really looked. My grand total of called Spur trades stands at two-thirds.




Why are you using dumbshit lowblow arguments with me, mate? Udoka's 38-74 or 51% in January. You can't judge anyone on one game and you know that as well as I do.38-78. So you do want to reward him for the 0fer and bench Bowen for having the best +/- tonight. That's fine. Why not? Bowen was absolutely the problem tonight. It was so obvious.

[timmy21_4rings]

Elson/Barry for Kurt Thomas?

Our defense will improve..Almost equal money...We will be missing Barry and his shooting...This trade can happen since our guy is in Seattle FO.

[baseline bum]

It's not so much that I'm shocked by Bruce's shooting slump, it's the fact that unlike last season his shooting slump seems to be disrupting and affecting the Spurs offense directly. Too often than not, I've seen Bruce pass on a wide open 3 pointer, attempt to drive it in the lane for a jumpshot which is not his forte and miss. I'd rather him pass the ball immediately if he's that hestitant to shoot from his fav spot. Combined with Finley's inconsistent shooting and Barry's injuries, the Spurs offense looks even more stagnant and one dimensional than I can recall in recent years.

I disagree. Bruce has worked hard on developing that pull-up jumper off the dribble, and it has been good to him the last 2-3 years.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Haven't really looked. My grand total of called Spur trades stands at two-thirds.

38-78. So you do want to reward him for the 0fer and bench Bowen for having the best +/- tonight. That's fine. Why not? Bowen was absolutely the problem tonight. It was so obvious.

Oh fer fucksake, stop venting on me because I don't deserve it. And stop putting words in my mouth that I never said. That really pisses me off.

I've been calling for Udoka to supplant Bowen since the Bobcats game and now he lays one egg and you're all over me for it. YOU CAN'T JUDGE ON ONE GAME. LOOK AT THE MONTH, as I have already said over and over and over.

And while you're at it, make some suggestions as to what the team should do, THE PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD, or STFU and find someone else to take your shit out on.

[ChumpDumper]

Oh fer fucksake, stop venting on me because I don't deserve it. And stop putting words in my mouth that I never said. That really pisses me off.

I've been calling for Udoka to supplant Bowen since the Bobcats game and now he lays one egg and you're all over me for it. YOU CAN'T JUDGE ON ONE GAME. LOOK AT THE MONTH, as I have already said over and over and over.

And while you're at it, make some suggestions as to what the team should do, THE PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD, or STFU and find someone else to take your shit out on.You mad?

I'm not venting.

Udoka sucked tonight and Bruce should have played more. Plain and simple.

[baseline bum]

Trade two or three expiring contracts for a big man Pop will actually play regular minutes.

I can't see Holt signing off on that. Who would you want that's realistically available for some combination of Elson/Barry/Finley/Horry?

[ChumpDumper]

I can't see Holt signing off on that.I think if there is any season in which he would sign of on such a deal, this would be it. There is a possibility of saving some money in a trade if the salaries are right, and the Spurs will be safely under the tax threshold for the next couple of seasons before the next big cap space push.
Who would you want that's realistically available for some combination of Elson/Barry/Finley/Horry?Kurt Thomas' name was floated and is someone I had in mind, but I'm not terribly motivated to look at the salary lists right now.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

So you do want to reward him for the 0fer and bench Bowen for having the best +/- tonight. That's fine. Why not? Bowen was absolutely the problem tonight. It was so obvious.

This thread started before tonight's game and is premised on observation over the month of January, so I don't appreciate your ridicule about one game which wasn't even in the sample under study.

As you know, usually I appreciate you, but you've been unreasonable today.

I said Elson/Barry for Thomas, and it would work under the cap. I'd do it, but would Seattle? We might really miss Barry's shooting, so maybe Elson/Horry - that also works, but why would Seattle do it?

[baseline bum]

Thomas is an expiring contract too, so I don't see Seattle that intent on moving him (makes it even more puzzling as to why Phoenix would give him up this season).

[baseline bum]

Bowen has earned the right to play through slumps. We're not talking Barry, Finley, Bonner, or Elson here.

[ChumpDumper]

This thread started before tonight's game and is premised on observation over the month of January, so I don't appreciate your ridicule about one game which wasn't even in the sample under study.Pietrus was 0-5 tonight too.


As you know, usually I appreciate you, but you've been unreasonable today.Probably.

[MannyIsGod]

I'm not going to read this thread because moving Bowen to the bench is foolish and an insanely bad idea. And Spurs fans proposing trades are always pipe dreams.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Thomas is an expiring contract too, so I don't see Seattle that intent on moving him (makes it even more puzzling as to why Phoenix would give him up this season).

Elson/Barry/Horry/Finley are all expiring too, so it wouldn't harm their cap. If they'd take Elson/Horry, 2nd rounder and cash we should do it as a last throw of the dice...

[ChumpDumper]

Thomas is an expiring contract too, so I don't see Seattle that intent on moving him (makes it even more puzzling as to why Phoenix would give him up this season).Phoenix gave him up because of money, and i doubt the Sonics' ownership group would turn down some thrown-in cash to help with the move.

[spurs_analyst210]

As a Spurs fan I have to say this has been one of the most aggravating months of the Spurs season. When you're used to winning as the Spurs are complacency is inevitable. Pop seems to have been taking anger management courses or the wifey has been on his case about his high blood pressure, because I have not seen the same fire in him as I did last season. This attitude that this team is a veteran team and doesn't need to be told what they are doing wrong has got to stop. A fire must be lit under these guys or making it out of the first round of the playoffs will not be the problem. I read a recent article stating that given the Spurs remaining games they have a one in four chance of making the playoffs. Now I know statistically the Spurs seem to gel during the rodeo road trip, but for some reason I just don't see them moving forward. A change is badly needed. I'm begging the Spurs organization, please sign that little shit mighty mouse.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I'm not going to read this thread because moving Bowen to the bench is foolish and an insanely bad idea. And Spurs fans proposing trades are always pipe dreams.

Fantastic. Great contribution.

Why don't you actually add something? Any ideas about how to stop the slide into mediocrity?

[T Park]

If they'd take Elson/Horry, 2nd rounder and cash we should do it as a last throw of the dice...

Trade a guy that turned down the Mavericks to stay and for less money?

Great move for future Free agents.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

As a Spurs fan I have to say this has been one of the most aggravating months of the Spurs season. When you're used to winning as the Spurs are complacency is inevitable. Pop seems to have been taking anger management courses or the wifey has been on his case about his high blood pressure, because I have not seen the same fire in him as I did last season. This attitude that this team is a veteran team and doesn't need to be told what they are doing wrong has got to stop. A fire must be lit under these guys or making it out of the first round of the playoffs will not be the problem. I read a recent article stating that given the Spurs remaining games they have a one in four chance of making the playoffs. Now I know statistically the Spurs seem to gel during the rodeo road trip, but for some reason I just don't see them moving forward. A change is badly needed. I'm begging the Spurs organization, please sign that little shit mighty mouse.

That was a Hollinger article, and it gave the Spurs a 3/4 chance of making the playoffs, 1/4 of missing them:

"Moreover, the Spurs were projected by our Playoff Odds to have only a 75.9 percent chance of making the playoffs, compared to Utah's 94.4 percent."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-080129

Better practice those comprehension skills.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Trade a guy that turned down the Mavericks to stay and for less money?

Great move for future Free agents.

Okay, Elson/Barry or Elson/Finley then. Take your pick.

I will always respect Rob for what he's done in the NBA, but he's done. He's a step slow and it's not just "waiting for playoff-itis".

[MannyIsGod]

Fantastic. Great contribution.

Why don't you actually add something? Any ideas about how to stop the slide into mediocrity?What exactly do you want to add? I'm an observer. I can add all I want but it doesn't make it any closer to being a reality. I might as well say Start Ian and sign Jordan becasue those are about as likely to happen as your lineup "suggestions" and trade ideas.

[T Park]

I will always respect Rob for what he's done in the NBA, but he's done. He's a step slow and it's not just "waiting for playoff-itis".

yeah just like Bruce Bowen is done.

get out of here with that BS.


Horry looked great last night vs the Jazz, had you watched the game without your ihatebowenhorry glasses you would see that.

your so damn set in your bowen and horry are done you fail to see when they play well.

[SenorSpur]

These slow annual starts by the Spurs are the equivalent of not going to class until mid-terms and then expecting to ace the rest of the semester and the Final Exam.

[RC's Boss]

I can play pretty good. Can't dunk since I got my knee scoped, but still pretty good. Any of you paranoid fans want me to suit up and don the silver -n- black?

[baseline bum]

Elson/Barry/Horry/Finley are all expiring too, so it wouldn't harm their cap. If they'd take Elson/Horry, 2nd rounder and cash we should do it as a last throw of the dice...

I wouldn't trade Rob out of loyalty, but he's clearly done. My feelings are mixed on Finley, but I'd probably trade him if something really nice came around. Barry was signed to a market value deal and one has to wonder if he'll be healthy enough to contribute at all again in a Spurs jersey, and he has the biggest contract of the expiring deals, so I would trade him in a second to improve the team. Same with Elson (just replace Barry's name with Elson and the words "be healthy enough to" with "ever" in the previous sentence). :lol

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

yeah just like Bruce Bowen is done.

get out of here with that BS.

Horry looked great last night vs the Jazz, had you watched the game without your ihatebowenhorry glasses you would see that.

your so damn set in your bowen and horry are done you fail to see when they play well.

Yeah, I'm a noted Bowen and Horry hater, I'm well known for that... :rolleyes

Horry is done. No offence to him, but he's been awful for the vast majority of the minutes he's played this season.

Bowen is in no way done, and I NEVER SAID HE WAS, but I think he needs a change, in the short term, as does the team. If you'd bothered to read the thread you'd know that's what I said, not that "he's done".

STFU, please.

[Holt's Cat]

Kurt Thomas would start in SA. But I don't see the Spurs taking on such a commitment.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I wouldn't trade Rob out of loyalty, but he's clearly done. My feelings are mixed on Finley, but I'd probably trade him if something really nice came around. Barry was signed to a market value deal and one has to wonder if he'll be healthy enough to contribute at all again in a Spurs jersey, and he has the biggest contract of the expiring deals, so I would trade him in a second to improve the team. Same with Elson (just replace Barry's name with Elson and the words "be healthy enough to" with "ever" in the previous sentence). :lol

:tu

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Kurt Thomas would start in SA. But I don't see the Spurs taking on such a commitment.

What, an expiring contract? WTF are you talking about?

[T Park]

but he's been awful for the vast majority of the minutes he's played this season

rewatch the Jazz game again.

He was vintage Horry.

Once again, that won't suit your agenda.



Yeah, I'm a noted Bowen and Horry hater, I'm well known for that

For the last week or so you've been wanting to bench Bowen and Horry.

Once again in this thread you advocate benching Bowen, after EVERYONE tells you that won't work, nor happen, and all of your "observations" concerning Bowen have been blown out of the water.

Yeah you don't have anything against either one.

[Holt's Cat]

What, an expiring contract? WTF are you talking about?

His ends in '09.

[ChumpDumper]

His ends in '09.Operation Cap Space III is set for the summer of 2010.

[SenorSpur]

Kurt Thomas would start in SA. But I don't see the Spurs taking on such a commitment.

Thomas would have made sense 3 seasons ago. He is now 35 years old. If you're looking for a half-season, stop-gap - OK. But, you're gonna have to give up something in return. Personally, I'd rather we move past signing the next old guy on the market.

[baseline bum]

His ends in '09.

Hoopshype lists his deal as ending this year.

http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/seattle.htm

[T Park]

Thomas IMO would be fine to bring in.

Splitter Mahinmi move in, Oberto and Thomas would prove the defensive veteran experience.


I would be 100% for a trade for Kurt Thomas.

It won't happen, but I'd be 100% for it.

[hsxvvd]

It seems to me that we are really missing a blue collar big. PJ Brown is still looking for work, if only for the year it seems like he'd fit in nice. He's smart, he hits open mid-range shots, he rebounds, he has heart.

Elson seems to have gone the Beno route with Pop, and Oberto isn't really the hustle type. Duncan's our main guy, he shouldn't have to be doing the dirty work too.

[baseline bum]

I'd like to get Kurt Thomas just to see the look on Sarver's face when the Spurs knock them out of the playoffs again, with him in our colors.

[T Park]

[/QUOTE]

Oberto isn't really the hustle type

huh?



I'd like to get Kurt Thomas just to see the look on Sarver's face when the Spurs knock them out of the playoffs again, with him in our colors.


Thats enough of a reason to trade for him right there.

[hsxvvd]

Oberto doesn't bring a great deal of energy to the floor, he doesn't get great rebounding numbers, barely blocks or intimidates shots. He fits well into the offence and flops around a bit, but we need a high energy big player.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

His ends in '09.

Nope, expiring this year. that's why Seattle took it on - capspace next year.

[genomefreak13]

First of all, I would like to commend RuffnReadyOzstyle for thinking of the team's best interest. It's not likely that you have a fan that would suggest things to make his team better.

Noble may it seems but not all ideas are appreciated by others. That is why opinions are subjective. For my part, I agree to some of his suggestion and disagree on the others.

I agree that signing stoudamire at this time would probably help the spurs survive these trying times. With parker out, he could provide the necessary point guard work we lack. Plus, he's the only rational choice the spurs can have. All other offers comes with strings or with high cost (against the team chemistry).

I disagreee with the Elson-pietrus trade. First and foremost, it's possibility is next to impossible. Second, the reason for trading given by Ruffin is not too good. Thinking of next season today is too early. To make changes now, based on what we want to achieve next year , is unlikely to help our present situation.

What the FO must do is to address the team's short term problems. If we remove elson and replace him with a small forward, that would further cause us problems. . We would be lacking another bigman to defend the post, and we would have too many players playing the small forward. One of them is doomed to reduced playing time. That would be another problem. What we can do- again - is sign another free agent. Might not be long term but is definitely a wiser solution.

I somehow agree on his suggestion of putting Udoka in the starting 5 for the first 5-6 minutes. I thnk , it has some essence. If we could maximize the playing time as well as their impact on the game. I think we could experiment on it for the first 3 or 4 games of the Rodeo trip. The present llineup is not responding effectively anyway (maybe because of the injuries). So why not try something else. Besides, what else can happen? were already losing.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Thomas would have made sense 3 seasons ago. He is now 35 years old. If you're looking for a half-season, stop-gap - OK. But, you're gonna have to give up something in return. Personally, I'd rather we move past signing the next old guy on the market.

The only way it could happen is for our own expiring contracts, so no worries about "taking on more old guys" beyond the end of this season.

With Presti and Carlisimo over there, I give this deal a 2% chance. Problem is Pop would never shaft one of his vets like that.

[Kori Ellis]

Nope, expiring this year. that's why Seattle took it on - capspace next year.


This is from the NBA media site from last time he got extended:

"The Knicks signed Kurt Thomas to a 4 year, $30.9 million contract extension. He is now signed through the 2008-09 season."

So I'm not sure which is right and which is wrong.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

First of all, I would like to commend RuffnReadyOzstyle for thinking of the team's best interest. It's not likely that you have a fan that would suggest things to make his team better.

Noble may it seems but not all ideas are appreciated by others. That is why opinions are subjective. For my part, I agree to some of his suggestion and disagree on the others.

I agree that signing stoudamire at this time would probably help the spurs survive these trying times. With parker out, he could provide the necessary point guard work we lack. Plus, he's the only rational choice the spurs can have. All other offers comes with strings or with high cost (against the team chemistry).

I disagreee with the Elson-pietrus trade. First and foremost, it's possibility is next to impossible. Second, the reason for trading given by Ruffin is not too good. Thinking of next season today is too early. To make changes now, based on what we want to achieve next year , is unlikely to help our present situation.

What the FO must do is to address the team's short term problems. If we remove elson and replace him with a small forward, that would further cause us problems. . We would be lacking another bigman to defend the post, and we would have too many players playing the small forward. One of them is doomed to reduced playing time. That would be another problem. What we can do- again - is sign another free agent. Might not be long term but is definitely a wiser solution.

I somehow agree on his suggestion of putting Udoka in the starting 5 for the first 5-6 minutes. I thnk , it has some essence. If we could maximize the playing time as well as their impact on the game. I think we could experiment on it for the first 3 or 4 games of the Rodeo trip. The present llineup is not responding effectively anyway (maybe because of the injuries). So why not try something else. Besides, what else can happen? were already losing.

Thanks for the reasoned reply. :tu

As for Pietrus, I think CD made the point that we really need a big Pop has confidence in more than anything, and he's right. I really like the idea of Elson+Horry(/Barry/Finley)+pick+cash for Kurt Thomas, doubt it gets done though. The Pietrus idea was more about getting some more bench scoring while Ime was starting, and secondly looking to next year (using this season as a "try out"), but it's basically been killed by the Webber signing anyway.

[freemeat]

This thread has "DENIAL" written all over it.

You have a problem. See a doctor.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

This is from the NBA media site from last time he got extended:

"The Knicks signed Kurt Thomas to a 4 year, $30.9 million contract extension. He is now signed through the 2008-09 season."

So I'm not sure which is right and which is wrong.

All that talk when he was traded was about how he'd come off the books at the end of this season.

Maybe there was a player option that he has since signed?

ESPN reckons he's expiring:

"Thomas comes at the price the rebuilding Sonics were seeking. He has one season left on a contract that will pay him $8.1 million next season."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2943588

[timvp]

I haven't read the whole thread yet but I'll respond to the first post ...


1. sign Stoudamire and bench Parker whenever his heel is hurting.If you meant to say ...

1. sign Stoudamire and bench Parker until his ankle/heel is 100%.

... then I agree with you. It shouldn't be a thing where Pop has to ask Parker on a continual basis how his ankle/heel is doing. Just keep him out until it's 95%+.


2. offer Francisco Elson (and a second-round pick or cash if necessary) to Golden State for Mikael Pietrus.Sorry bro but Pietrus fvcking sucks. I've watched him a lot over the years because he's long been rumored to come to the Spurs but he'd be an absolutely horrible fit. He'd basically be like Elson the small forward version.

His basketball IQ might be non-existent. He's just a good athlete. That's it. He'd suck on the Spurs.


3. move Udoka to the starting lineup and Bowen to the bench.:rolleyes

I pointed to Udoka as the person I wanted the Spurs to sign before the regular season started but no way do I want to see this happen. It'd be the most panic move I've ever seen out of the Spurs. Udoka is a nice player but he shouldn't start in place of Bowen.

Bowen was playing great until Parker got injured. After Parker got injured, Bowen's open looks plummeted and Bowen has responded by trying to create his own shots. That has been horrible to watch.

That said, once Parker is back in action and playing like he can play, Bowen will once again be effective again offensively. Defensively, Bowen has been fine ... it's just his offense that has fallen off.

If you want to have more offense in the starting lineup, put Manu back in the starting lineup. If you want more scoring overall, play Bonner more.

Benching Bowen is something you do one year at the beginning of training camp. You don't do it as a panic move in the middle of a season. That'd be a horrible decision ... especially when he'll return to normal once Parker returns. And if Parker doesn't return, it won't matter anyways because the Spurs won't be winning a championship.

Bowen over the years has earned the trust of fans. Hell, he's upped his three-point percentage in every single playoff run. Okay, he's struggle in January. So what? He'll hit the shots when it matters -- like he always does.

Oh and championships are won with defense. Bowen is the player who sets the tone defensively. You F with his role, you F with a proven formula.


4. settle on a rotation!Agreed. The lack of a quality and consistent rotation has been hurting the Spurs as much as anything outside of injuries.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

This thread has "DENIAL" written all over it.

You have a problem. See a doctor.

Yup, let's shoot ourselves in the head instead of discussing ways we might get better.

Where are we again? Oh, that's right, SPURSTALK, a place to talk about the Spurs... :rolleyes

[genomefreak13]

I also think we can be better with another bigman in the roster. I was wondering abourt the status of Danny Fortson. I know he's a free agent, but I don't know if he has any strings attached with the other teams.

If we could have him, I think that will help us defensively. He rebounds better than Elson will be, plus he's physical inside.

[Kori Ellis]

According to the NBA site in 2004, he had another year left on his contract (the 04-05 season) and at that point, he signed a 4 year extension on top of that contract. So that would take him through 08-09. But for all I know, the 08-09 season could be an option (team or player). It doesn't say anything about that.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I haven't read the whole thread yet but I'll respond to the first post ...

If you meant to say ...

1. sign Stoudamire and bench Parker until his ankle/heel is 100%.

... then I agree with you. It shouldn't be a thing where Pop has to ask Parker on a continual basis how his ankle/heel is doing. Just keep him out until it's 95%+.

Sorry bro but Pietrus fvcking sucks. I've watched him a lot over the years because he's long been rumored to come to the Spurs but he'd be an absolutely horrible fit. He'd basically be like Elson the small forward version.

His basketball IQ might be non-existent. He's just a good athlete. That's it. He'd suck on the Spurs.

:rolleyes

I pointed to Udoka as the person I wanted the Spurs to sign before the regular season started but no way do I want to see this happen. It'd be the most panic move I've ever seen out of the Spurs. Udoka is a nice player but he shouldn't start in place of Bowen.

Bowen was playing great until Parker got injured. After Parker got injured, Bowen's open looks plummeted and Bowen has responded by trying to create his own shots. That has been horrible to watch.

That said, once Parker is back in action and playing like he can play, Bowen will once again be effective again offensively. Defensively, Bowen has been fine ... it's just his offense that has fallen off.

If you want to have more offense in the starting lineup, put Manu back in the starting lineup. If you want more scoring overall, play Bonner more.

Benching Bowen is something you do one year at the beginning of training camp. You don't do it as a panic move in the middle of a season. That'd be a horrible decision ... especially when he'll return to normal once Parker returns. And if Parker doesn't return, it won't matter anyways because the Spurs won't be winning a championship.

Bowen over the years has earned the trust of fans. Hell, he's upped his three-point percentage in every single playoff run. Okay, he's struggle in January. So what? He'll hit the shots when it matters -- like he always does.

Oh and championships are won with defense. Bowen is the player who sets the tone defensively. You F with his role, you F with a proven formula.

Agreed. The lack of a quality and consistent rotation has been hurting the Spurs as much as anything outside of injuries.

Fair commentary, LJ.

1. I said what I said because I was assuming that bone spurs don't just go away by themselves, and thus that Parker will have to manage the injury for the rest of the season until he can get proper rest in the off-season. I hope I'm wrong.

2. The Pietrus idea was always speculative, and chumpdumper is right that what we really need is a big to play beside Duncan that Pop trusts. Now that I've thought about it, Kurt Thomas for Elson+an old guy+2nd rounder+cash makes more sense. This thread was all about throwing ideas out there and stimulating new ones.

3. I knew that some people would object to the idea of benching Bruce, but I don't see it as benching so much as rearranging his minutes so that we have more offence at the start of the game. Anyway, it seems pretty unpopular, and maybe it would be better to throw Udoka in for Finley, who is only playing well occasionally himself.

4. The problem with our rotation is that we have too many players with very specific skills. If only we could combine each of Horry+Bonner/Elson+Oberto/Finley+Udoka into one player, the rotation wouldn't be a problem. As it is, we have too many players who expose glaring weaknesses on the court, and then Pop switches to cover those weaknesses with other players and their weaknesses are quickly exposed. So much for the depth that we thought we had when we started the season.

When it all comes down to it, this is the season that the Spurs are showing their age. I guess there's not much we can do about that at all… :depressed

[genomefreak13]

If ever. I hope the spurs take a look at him. I'm pretty deserate for a bigman right now.

[TDMVPDPOY]

how about jeff foster, i brought him up on koris ranting thread i believe, dude earns 6.5m this season and a player option of 7.125m

his player option, maybe we can give him a 3yr extention ending end of 09/10 season...

[baseline bum]

Freaking Hoopshype. All the more reason for Seattle to trade Thomas.

[genomefreak13]

I think any bigman that can defend the post will do..as long as they are rebounding.

[timvp]

1. I said what I said because I was assuming that bone spurs don't just go away by themselves, and thus that Parker will have to manage the injury for the rest of the season until he can get proper rest in the off-season. I hope I'm wrong.I hope you're wrong too. If Parker has to manage it the rest of the season, the season is already over.


2. The Pietrus idea was always speculative, and chumpdumper is right that what we really need is a big to play beside Duncan that Pop trusts. Now that I've thought about it, Kurt Thomas for Elson+an old guy+2nd rounder+cash makes more sense. This thread was all about throwing ideas out there and stimulating new ones.Eh, I don't think the Spurs need a big. Oberto will come around once the playoffs roll around. If Horry doesn't join him, Bonner will be decent enough. I don't think the Spurs have a problem as far as not having good enough bigs next to Duncan.

Plus Kurt Thomas and Tim Duncan would form a frontline that is too immobile. If a team went small against the Spurs, the Spurs would get killed. Oberto, Bonner, Horry and even Elson work well next to Duncan because they are mobile and are able to step out on the perimeter if needed. Thomas couldn't and then he's not able to take advantage of small defenders.

If this were 1998, then yeah Duncan and Thomas would be a nice frontline. But it's 2008 and with the rules how they currently are, teams will go small and destroy that pairing.


3. I knew that some people would object to the idea of benching Bruce, but I don't see it as benching so much as rearranging his minutes so that we have more offence at the start of the game. Anyway, it seems pretty unpopular, and maybe it would be better to throw Udoka in for Finley, who is only playing well occasionally himself.Finley is more of an offensive player than Udoka. If Parker can return and go back to opening up shots for three-point shooters, then the starting lineup will be fine. If Parker is hobbled for the rest of the year, you have to start Manu and pray that the bench is good enough.


4. The problem with our rotation is that we have too many players with very specific skills. If only we could combine each of Horry+Bonner/Elson+Oberto/Finley+Udoka into one player, the rotation wouldn't be a problem. As it is, we have too many players who expose glaring weaknesses on the court, and then Pop switches to cover those weaknesses with other players and their weaknesses are quickly exposed. So much for the depth that we thought we had when we started the season.I just think it's a matter of picking players and playing them. Go back to a nine-man rotation and get this thing rolling. Pick one backup big, one backup points, one main backup swingman and then another swingman for spot minutes. The Spurs have the players, Pop just has to pick which ones he wants to use.


When it all comes down to it, this is the season that the Spurs are showing their age. I guess there's not much we can do about that at all… :depressedI know you disagree but I truly think the Spurs looked older and worse last year. And last year they actually had reason to play hard because of the way the Mavs beat them in 2006. This year they are looking pretty bad but they aren't looking as soft and as flawed as they appeared to be at this time last year.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Another good reply LJ. Good points all. :tu

I am intrigued by Duncan/Thomas because that gives you two great low post defenders who are also good help defenders, Twin Towers-lite, and Thomas could operate at the FT-line for 15fters and dump-downs on O (something Oberto should do more of)... however, you are right - teams would go small and kill that lineup.

Which 9 would you go with? I'm guessing you'd say starters plus Manu, JV, Udoka, Bonner? It seems that you aren't yet convinced that Horry is done like I am?

TP is the key that starts this engine, apparently. Barry's passing and energy may have been able to cover him for a while, but with TP and Barry out the only creator we have is Manu. So, effectively, the season is in the lap of the Gods...

[ChumpDumper]

Don't teams go small on us and kill us anyway? Or stay big and kill us? If mobility is an issue, Elson is the only useful big man we have. If we are going to play a slow big man, let's have one who can be counted upon to get boards and defend. We don't have that now.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Don't teams go small on us and kill us anyway? Or stay big and kill us? If mobility is an issue, Elson is the only useful big man we have. If we are going to play a slow big man, let's have one who can be counted upon to get boards and defend. We don't have that now.

Also a good point.

Doesn't that sum up the current predicament - this team is really not sure what it is, and in trying to cover all the bases it's spread too weak.

Maybe it is time to go back to ultra-slowdown mode and grind people out with two big guys...

I dunno. I have to go away and not think about this shit. My brain is mush.

G'night.

[MaNu4Tres]

Don't teams go small on us and kill us anyway? Or stay big and kill us? If mobility is an issue, Elson is the only useful big man we have. If we are going to play a slow big man, let's have one who can be counted upon to get boards and defend. We don't have that now.


Agreed 100 percent.

[genomefreak13]

Playig snall ball really depends upon the opponent . If the only way we can be a team is to run them to the ground then I prefer to have the small (and faster team), Never mind the rebound, think about running and scoring.

[MaNu4Tres]

Transition points start from the defensive end, unless you wanna take the suns route and inbound passes 40 feet and take the first shot off the screen and roll you see. Suns can do that because they have the talented players that we don't have outside the big 3.

[timvp]

Don't teams go small on us and kill us anyway? Or stay big and kill us? If mobility is an issue, Elson is the only useful big man we have. If we are going to play a slow big man, let's have one who can be counted upon to get boards and defend. We don't have that now.There is Oberto and Bonner slow. And then there is Kurt Thomas sloooooooooooooooooooooow. Oberto and Bonner seem like Allen Iverson and Deion Sanders when compared to Thomas.

[genomefreak13]

That why I said it depends on the opponent. If you think we can't defend that well on a particular team then don't use it. We used the small lineup against the lakers and we won. But I don't see that being done with the suns or houston. It's basically a coaching decision. We just need to play our pieces right.

[ChumpDumper]

There is Oberto and Bonner slow. And then there is Kurt Thomas sloooooooooooooooooooooow. Oberto and Bonner seem like Allen Iverson and Deion Sanders when compared to Thomas.Not that much difference that I see. We still don't use our big men with any consistency. And we get worked on the boards whether we go big or small. And none of them can block a shot.

Our mobile big is Michael Finley.

[genomefreak13]

The best fast lineup the we got is oberto playing the 5. Duncan 4 bowen/udoka 3 , ginobili and parker 1. Thomas, isn't the popular guy for me. I'd rather have fortson. If left with no choice however, I'd use him for physical teams (only) not on faster teams. Thomas' days in starting fives are done - if he desides to join the spurs (which is unlikely). But just for the sake of argument, made a proposition. What the heck...

[timvp]

Not that much difference that I see.You think Thomas could go out on the perimeter and guard anybody? Oberto and Bonner can at least get a hand up. Thomas wouldn't be able to do that. Great post defender, however he has no mobility anymore.


We still don't use our big men with any consistency. And we get worked on the boards whether we go big or small.Pop used small ball a lot last year too during the regular season but was pretty smart during the playoffs about not going small against teams that can dominate small ball (Nuggets, Jazz and Cavs).

Oh and the Spurs are the best defensive rebounding team in the NBA. They are much improved over last season in that category. Losses this year that can be blamed on rebounding can be counted on one hand. I've actually been pleasantly surprised by how well this team has rebounded this season, considering all the small ball that has been played.

Actually, the Spurs currently are one of the best defensive rebounding teams in NBA history. I can't find a team in recent years who comes close. Not bad for getting "worked on the boards".


And none of them can block a shot.Kurt Thomas is a shotblocker? Horry is better shotblocker than Thomas. Even this fat, slow version of Horry we see today.


Our mobile big is Michael Finley.Everyone on the team is mobile compared to Kurt Thomas.

[MaNu4Tres]

You think Thomas could go out on the perimeter and guard anybody? Oberto and Bonner can at least get a hand up. Thomas wouldn't be able to do that. Great post defender, however he has no mobility anymore.




Kurt Thomas is a shotblocker? Horry is better shotblocker than Thomas. Even this fat, slow version of Horry we see today.

Everyone on the team is mobile compared to Kurt Thomas.


Oberto and Bonner are the worst at defending the paint. All they are is a step ladder for an And 1 for opposing wings who penetrate. Those two shuffle their feet away and pat the penetrators on the back as they score. It's disgusting to watch. Interior Defense would help. As i said before, Something that can improve the offense is having a big NOT named Oberto next to Tim getting consistant minutes, helping triggering fast breaks and creating easy transition buckets by standing their ground inside, blocking, and contesting shots around the rim. Something Oberto is very very very inferior at.

Our transition game has been non-existent the past month and a half. Half of that is because of Parker's injury but the other half of it comes from the lack of interior defense. That's why I'm so against Oberto, but y'all claim he's solid when he gets dimed for easy wide open lay ups, sets screens, and tips a ball out or two. Any big can make an open layup and set a good screen and most grab rebounds not tip them. We win with defense, always have always will and thats my point about Oberto. He brings zero defensively.

If anything I'd like to trade a couple of expendable players with expiring contracts for a defensive big man. Why do you think PJ Carlismo was going after Oberto and won the game. Thats our weakness.


Kurt Thomas might not have the athletism of a Dalembert or Amare. But the man is smart enough defensively to avg. 3 times more blocks than Oberto a game.

Kurt Thomas is as or more mobile than Oberto and is definatley a better presence defensively.

[ChumpDumper]

So we're the best 10th place rebounding differential team in NBA history.

Ok.


Oberto and Bonner can at least get a hand up.If they can be bothered to, It's not like they won't be on the team anymore if their catlike lightning mobility is needed.
HorryOh, that guy who is shooting 18% this season? He's actually not that much better a blocker this season. But he's mobile. I'll give you that.

[ChumpDumper]

But, I defer to you. Everything will be fine if Parker heals up. I'm overreacting to the mounting losses.

[timvp]

Oberto and Bonner are the worst at defending the paint. All they are is a step ladder for an And 1 for opposing wings who penetrate. Those two shuffle their feet away and pat the penetrators on the back as they score. It's disgusting to watch. Interior Defense would help. As i said before, Something that can improve the offense is having a big NOT named Oberto next to Tim getting consistant minutes, helping triggering fast breaks and creating easy transition buckets by standing their ground inside, blocking, and contesting shots around the rim. Something Oberto is very very very inferior at.Duncan is the Spurs' interior post defender. In the modern day NBA, you don't need two interior post defenders. While Oberto and Bonner do suck at protecting the rim, so does Thomas. Thomas is a post defender, not a help defender who can cover other people's mistakes.


Our transition game has been non-existent the past month and a half. Half of that is because of Parker's injury but the other half of it comes from the lack of interior defense. That's why I'm so against Oberto, but y'all claim he's solid when he gets dimed for easy wide open lay ups, sets screens, and tips a ball out or two. Any big can make an open layup and set a good screen and most grab rebounds not tip them. We win with defense, always have always will and thats my point about Oberto. He brings zero defensively. Oberto was enough last year. Once Duncan gets into playoff defensive mode, Oberto's shotblocking weakness isn't as noticeable. I don't think a Duncan/Oberto frontline is a bad matchup against any team in the NBA except the Mavs. But against the Mavs, Thomas would be an even worse matchup than Oberto.

ROFL @ the thought of Thomas guarding Dirk.


If anything I'd like to trade a couple of expendable players with expiring contracts for a defensive big man. Why do you think PJ Carlismo was going after Oberto and won the game. Thats our weakness. I'll take Wilcox shooting fade away 15-footers all night. If you want a defensive big, that's great. But the big should be a shotblocker or a guy who can defend on the perimeter adequately. Not a guy who just replicates the same defensive skills Duncan brings minus shotblocking.


Kurt Thomas might not have the athletism of a Dalembert or Amare. But the man is smart enough defensively to avg. 3 times more blocks than Oberto a game. Thomas gets blocks against players he's guarding. He doesn't block shots when playing help defense. If you are going for a shotblocker, you want a weakside shotblocker to play next to Duncan.

And again, Thomas is no shotblocker. Horry is more of a shotblocker.


Kurt Thomas is as or more mobile than ObertoMaybe four years ago.


and is definatley a better presence defensively.Agreed. But not in the areas that would help the Spurs.

[timvp]

So we're the best 10th place rebounding differential team in NBA history.Rebounding differential? That stat still exists? The Spurs mathematically are at a disadvantage in that stat because 1) they have a slow pace 2) they don't even try to get offensive rebounds.


If they can be bothered to, It's not like they won't be on the team anymore if their catlike lightning mobility is needed.The days of having two post defenders died when the NBA outlawed handchecking.


Oh, that guy who is shooting 18% this season? He's actually not that much better a blocker this season. But he's mobile. I'll give you that.Horry is at least a weakside shotblocker. Thomas gets blocks because when playing post defense.


But, I defer to you. Everything will be fine if Parker heals up. I'm overreacting to the mounting losses.We're either all overreacting or all underreacting.

I can't tell.

[ChumpDumper]

Rebounding differential? That stat still exists?I didn't get the memo that getting more rebounds than your opponent is no longer considered good. Sorry.

I've been told not to worry, so I won't. It's easier this way.

[MaNu4Tres]

Oberto was enough last year. So was the whole team. But to me Horry showing up defensively helped more than Oberto.And by the looks of it, I don't like putting all of our eggs in the basket of this 07/08 Horry. I think it would be nice to have a different option inside to defend the paint. But in order for us to have enough to win it again this year, our Big 3 have to be firing on all cylinders and healthy ( which isn't looking good with Parker's bone spur). Two of our other wings ( Bowen, Finley, Barry, Udoka) have to be on fire and hitting just about every open three they see. If those things don't happen again we won't get past the second round.

[MI21]

Nice thread, Ruff.

I won't reply to anything specifically but I will just throw a few points out there about random stuff talked about in this thread.

1- I think I like the Stoudamire acquisition, whether or not it is due to Parker being out an extended time or not. I have no problem with Jacque Vaughn, but since the Spurs don't have a top tier backup PG, I like the idea of having variety in the backups. The team needs firing up, needs someone to energize the defense, hustle around the court and be responsible with the ball, then bring in Jacque. A low risk - low reward type. If the team needs an offensive spark, someone to get in the key a little, someone who won't be afraid to shoot the ball and can score 10 points in a quarter, then bring on Stoudamire. It can be quite easy to pickup what the team needs at any given time, so having a variety of styles in the backups is never a bad thing. I don't like redundancy in backups, because in the NBA there is so many different styles thrown at you that it's nice to have an answer or even the ability to cause your own matchup problems for the opposition.

2- Benching Bowen is a big no-no for me. First off, I like how he sets the tone for the team defensively, and the versatilty he shows when switching off onto different starter quality players early in the game. He protects the bigs in a way by staying in front of his man very well, the last thing the Spurs need is more slashing players going at Duncan early in the game causing foul trouble because of the weaker defensive unit starting the game out. I also think that benching Bowen takes away one of his great strengths, and that's getting in the head of players early in the game. Forcing them to take bad shots, ruining there confidence and basically being annoying. This leads to players taking themselves out of the whole, just because of some good defense early on. It's asking way to much of Bruce to be a defensive fire extinguisher of sorts, coming on to slow down guys that are already on fire, that's just not possible in the NBA, players like Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Arenas, Pierce, Redd, McGrady, Carmelo, Iverson etc etc are just to good to stop once they get the ball rolling. Plus, Udoka isn't ready to start yet. Offensively, with Parker healthy, and the team playing cohesively like it generally does later on in the season, Bowen is certainly not a liability on the offensive, He is always good for 2-3 15-20pt games during the playoffs, and the Spurs always win when he performs like that. He knows the system, and when everybody is healthy, he is a vital cog even offensively to everything being spaced correctly and generally running smoothly. Bowen should not be benched this season, maybe next season sure, but not now in a panic move, no way.

3- I don't think Horry is done yet. I know he looks useless right now, and even during the season he shows more than this normally. But I'm not ready to say he is done, I still think when push comes to shove, final 2 minutes of a big game, Horry will be the 2nd big on the floor with Duncan. I'm all for Bonner getting more minutes as well, I'm still unsure why he lost minutes whilst playing well, which leads me to the next point....

Rotation! Settle on one please Pop. Once everyone is healthy, stop fucking around and give players a chance to get some rhythm in lineups. It's a big help to have complimentary lineups on the floor, it stops these fucking scoring droughts happening, and keeps players confidence up. Manu and Oberto should be on at the same times. Parker with Finley and Bowen is a good match. If Vaughn is on, please don't have Bowen and Elson on with him. I've seen far to many whack lineups this season, and I know there has been injury probs and that you have to try out different lineups etc, but the time is coming up where Pop needs to decide what is best and stick with it so the guys can get some chemistry together. The 2nd unit is killing the Spurs at the moment, and the first unit isn't much better.

4- This team is good enough to win the championship. They don't need a trade, they don't need Stoudamire, but if they do make a trade or sign Damon then it could help. If the players can start playing a bit more motivated, get some chemistry behind them and stay healthy, this team is still incredibly hard to beat in a 7 game series. But this slump isn't to be just tossed under the rug, there really could be problems. I think its obvious the Spurs need an energetic big (perhaps mahinmi, splitter) who can play 10-20mpg and also an athletic guard that can create his own shot. But the Spurs needed this last season, and they still won, so it can be done. They just need to play some Spur basketball, because I'm not seeing much of that lately. What I am seeing is a mixture of shit basketball, players that aren't comfortable in there roles or are pressing, injuries, boredom and some very unmotivated and uncommitted defensive efforts all around. I think it may take just one thing, one play, one game to make these guys remember what they are about, and I still won't bet against a Parker, Ginobili, Bowen, Horry, Duncan lineup in the final 5 minutes of a playoff game.

[genomefreak13]

I think Pop thinks it's too early to settle down on his rotation. I don't agree with this, but usually he uses the first half of the season to do his experimentations -specially with the different lineups he could use in the floor. The second half of the season is where the real thing starts. If I'm right, there should be a regular lineup that he would play each game during the rodeo trip. I hope he gets to it soon. Losses are starting to pile up.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

i stopped caring about the part of the spurs season before the all star break a long time ago. they have always pulled their shit together the last half of the season or so.

[SenorSpur]

4- This team is good enough to win the championship.

Under normal conditions and circumstances, this team SHOULD be good enough to win a champtionship. We all hope so. However, the jury is still waaaay out on this one.



They don't need a trade, they don't need Stoudamire, but if they do make a trade or sign Damon then it could help. If the players can start playing a bit more motivated, get some chemistry behind them and stay healthy, this team is still incredibly hard to beat in a 7 game series.

The fear we all live with is perhaps they've reached that delicate threshold where age and skill levels with some of the older players have begun to diminish from last season. At the same time, it seems that nearly every team in the conference (save for a few losers) have "closed the gap" on them. That said, I disagree that they don't need to make a trade. There's no question this team needs some stop-gap help to shore up the scoring, rebounding, and post-defense deficiencies. However, you can't do it all before the trade deadline.



But this slump isn't to be just tossed under the rug, there really could be problems. I think its obvious the Spurs need an energetic big (perhaps mahinmi, splitter) who can play 10-20mpg and also an athletic guard that can create his own shot. But the Spurs needed this last season, and they still won, so it can be done. They just need to play some Spur basketball, because I'm not seeing much of that lately.

Don't discount the fortunate breaks the Spurs realized along their epic playoff run. Perhaps the biggest one was NOT having the play the Mavs. I'm confident a series against them would have exposed other flaws that perhaps we're just starting to notice.

You're right in that the Spurs needed some position upgrades last year, yet chose to sit still. They took the same approach over the offseason. It could be that thing I call organizational arrogance creeping in again. Just because the Spurs won the title last year DOES NOT mean the team was flawless. Sure, they were healthy and got hot at the right time, but they weren't perfect. It also doesn't mean they should have rested on their laurels.

You're right. They're not playing Spurs basketball from a physical standpoint. However, they're also not playing Spurs basketball from a mental standpoint. Poor execution, turnovers, defensive breakdowns in key momemts, second chance give-up points, complacency, etc. Unless the mindset and motivation to defend their title are improved, it wont matter how healthy they are.

[genomefreak13]

You're right. They're not playing Spurs basketball from a physical standpoint. However, they're also not playing Spurs basketball from a mental standpoint. Poor execution, turnovers, defensive breakdowns in key momemts, second chance give-up points, complacency, etc. Unless the mindset and motivation to defend their title are improved, it wont matter how healthy they are.

I think you're right on this one. The spurs' losses are usually the close ones (except for the New orleans game). As I championship team, I think it's fair to expect that the spurs would show a little more mental toughness. Udoka's ejection is understandable, since he was never part of the team when it won it all. But the failure to execute and all the other stuff is simply frustrating.

[SAGambler]

Poor execution, turnovers, defensive breakdowns in key momemts, second chance give-up points, complacency, etc. Unless the mindset and motivation to defend their title are improved, it wont matter how healthy they are.

It's crazy the way they will run an offensive play, with the ball zipping around until they find the open man and score, and then next time down, looks like they have no idea in hell as to what they are trying to do.

I think at the moment the big killer is the turnovers. 20 to the Jazz that gave them 22 points, I think it was. And most of them are silly turnovers that could easily have been avoided.

Time to get over the "it's only a regular game in Jan" syndrome, and start playing Spurs type ball.

[SenorSpur]

It's crazy the way they will run an offensive play, with the ball zipping around until they find the open man and score, and then next time down, looks like they have no idea in hell as to what they are trying to do.

I think at the moment the big killer is the turnovers. 20 to the Jazz that gave them 22 points, I think it was. And most of them are silly turnovers that could easily have been avoided.

Time to get over the "it's only a regular game in Jan" syndrome, and start playing Spurs type ball.

Yeah man. How many times do we see someone throw a pass to a spot where no one is (like a timing route in football)? Or how about seeing Manu or Tim lag back to question, what they feel is a missed call by an official, only to have the opposition run a transition break up their ass on the other end?

[lefty]

2007-2008 Spurs remind me of the 94-95 Rockets.

As the defending Champs, they had a great start, then they sucked, and traded for Drexler during the season, then repeated.

Spurs had a nice start as the defending Champs, they are sucking right now and they may add Damon Stoudamire.

Of course, Damon is no Drexler, we all agree on that, but he might be a good addition.

[Budkin]

2007-2008 Spurs remind me of the 94-95 Rockets.

As the defending Champs, they had a great start, then they sucked, and traded for Drexler during the season, then repeated.

Spurs had a nice start as the defending Champs, they are sucking right now and they may add Damon Stoudamire.

Of course, Damon is no Drexler, we all agree on that, but he might be a good addition.

That's a pretty good comparison actually. They were really bad for a stretch there that season and ended up with the 6th seed or something. Let's hope our season ends the way theirs did.