Trade Proposals

[MaNu4Tres]

Here's a few trade proposals I'd consider...Tell me what you think


Barry/ Elson for Kurt Thomas ...why would sonics do it? I heard on Mark Stein tonight on ESPN say that the Sonics are pleased with the work he has done for them, and would consider trading him to a contender out of respect. As long as it doesn't hurt them financially in the coming years as they try to rebuild ( as long as they get back expiring contracts). Yes trading Barry might be tough to let go, but he has become expendable with Udoka's play as of late.

Barry and a pick for Brendon Haywood .. Just a thought. Haywood has 2 years left after this year for roughly 11 million. Therefore it wouldn't effect the 2010 plan. If we were too trade Barry's contract alone for a big man. I would consider Elson being dealt for insurance on the wing.

Barry and Elson and a pick for Jeff Foster Shawne Williams and Oriene Greene. Not sure if Pacers are desperate to clear 8 million off their cap. But they could be.

Barry and 2nd rounder for Mikki Moore. Both have expiring contracts. I highly doubt Kings are willing to resign Mikki Moore after this year with the contracts of Abdur-Rahim, Kenny Thomas, and Brad Miller exceeding 25 million next year. Again after a deal like this I'd send Elson for a 5th wing.

Barry and Elson for Mark Blount and Smush Parker. Why? Heat are desperate to shave off cap space ASAP. Then again they might have second thoughts. The way I see it even with Mark Blount's 2 more years for 15 million. Spurs are only going to be able to sign players this offseason with the MLE anyway even with all the expiring contracts and this wouldn't effect the 2010 plan.

Elson and a 1st round pick for Joakim Noah. We all know the chemistry issues this rookie has stirred in Chicago. You never know.

Barry Elson and 1st round pick for Chris Wilcox. They are in rebuilding mode and refused to give Wilcox a long-term deal. Mine as well get an extra 1st round pick for a rental for another year.

Barry and a 1st round pick for Joe Smith. Pretty sure he's making his last run and isn't in Chicago's future financial plans with Deng and Gordon's desired paychecks.

[tav1]

I can see Kurt Thomas and potentially Jeff Foster, but not the rest.

Does Bonner have any trade value?

[vander]

so you're not a big Barry fan then

[MaNu4Tres]

so you're not a big Barry fan then


The way I see it, Finley and Horry took paycuts and came here. Out of loyalty I just don't realistically seeing us trading either of them. Realistically I see us trading Barry or Elson more than anyone. I like Barry I just think he is expendable as a 5th wing. We need to get Duncan some help inside.

[genomefreak13]

Elson and a 1st round pick for Joakim Noah. We all know the chemistry issues this rookie has stirred in Chicago. You never know.

This works for me. It's a quick fix and it would help the team get younger. I don't think though, that the bulls would let go of Noah that easy

[vander]

The way I see it, Finley and Horry took paycuts and came here. Out of loyalty I just don't realistically seeing us trading either of them. Realistically I see us trading Barry or Elson more than anyone. I like Barry I just think he is expendable as a 5th wing. We need to get Duncan some help inside.

I think Barry took less than market value to come here too

[TDMVPDPOY]

teh washington wizards current problem atm

i read on hoopshype, jamison is expiring contract of 16m, and then the fiasco of resignin ARENAS, if both are not resigned wizards have 33m payroll only....would they want to shed payroll with BRENDAS contract of 11m/2 yrs...

problem with PACERS, if they can get rid of JOs contract, i can see them rebuilding this summer, but for the pieces we want from them, is highly unlikely GREEN and WILLIAMS is added to the piece, we should go back to the drawing board, and see what was the original offer when they were interested in BARRY and fillers for FOSTER...his the only player i would like to be on the spurs....

Mikki Moore is underrated, he has his good games sometimes, and lookn at getting paid, anthing more than the MLE is overpayin for his services. I think the KINGS will resign him since he and beno are the reason why they were winning games when BIBBY and MARTINS was out....KINGS could be in for some trades also since they are trying to get rid of ARTEST and BIBBY if the right deal comes along

A trade with the HEAT? gtfo only bigs i want on that team is probably haslem who is on a real cheap contract

a trade to chicago for joe smith for barry and first round pick is just to much to give up for IMO....

[MaNu4Tres]

If I remember correctly Barry got the MLE. Kings offered him one more year, not more money. It was the Spurs or the Kings. He chose us for 4 years instead of 5 with the kings. Like I said I like Barry and his commercials, I just think realistically if we are going to make a trade Barry and or Elson will be involved. Thats why they were in every one.

[JamStone]

Kings signed Mikki Moore to a three year deal.

And, Seattle would ask for much more for Chris Wilcox.

[MaNu4Tres]

Kings signed Mikki Moore to a three year deal.

And, Seattle would ask for much more for Chris Wilcox.


Hoopshype has him on a one year deal. My mistake even if it was a 3 year deal I'd consider it. It's not like we are going to have more than the MLE to spend the for the next two summers anyway.

[TDMVPDPOY]

i think this trade makes sense with the HAWKS

barry or whatever
for
zaza pachulia 4m this season and 4m 08/09 remaining,
sheldon williams whose on a rookie contract with 3m next season and a team option in 09/10, player option 10/11

sheldon williams a 250lbs 6'9 PF/C who probably can help us when there is small ball lineups against us, even though his foul prone, he blocks shots and rebs well

pachulia 263lbs 6'11 C

[MaNu4Tres]

i think this trade makes sense with the HAWKS

barry or whatever
for
zaza pachulia 4m this season and 4m 08/09 remaining,
sheldon williams whose on a rookie contract with 3m next season and a team option in 09/10, player option 10/11

sheldon williams a 250lbs 6'9 PF/C who probably can help us when there is small ball lineups against us, even though his foul prone, he blocks shots and rebs well

pachulia 263lbs 6'11 C


There's no way they include Sheldon Williams for nothing to show for it in 08/09. And for Pachulia, he brings what Oberto brings( has average at best post defense, horrible at defending the paint and the bucket), and he doesn't have a clue on the difference between a good shot and a bad one. In other words he's more a chucker than anything in a big mans body.

[timvp]

If the Spurs are going to make a trade, it'd be a trade that flipped an expiring contract for a younger player with a longer contract on a team wanting to clear cap space. For example, the Spurs made a run at Kyle Korver ... who'd fit exactly into this scenario.

Trades that make sense to me:

Barry plus a pick for Shane Battier -- Battier has mostly need a disappointment for the Rockets this year. Adelman would probably welcome a move that got more time for Bonzi Wells. This could become more likely if the Rockets fall out of the playoff picture and want to shed some salary.

Barry, Elson and picks for Udonis Haslem and Smush Parker -- Heat get to dump salary. Spurs get a mobile big that could make a living next to Duncan.

Barry for Jason Kapono - The Spurs went after another one dimensional shooter with a bad contract (Korver), so why not his twin brother? Kapono lost his starting job and the Raptors may want to open up more consistent time for players like Moon and Delfino.

Barry, Elson plus picks for Andre Miller - If Parker is going to be hobbled for the rest of the year, Miller is probably the best point guard available who might be had in a salary dump.

[MagnusKrauss]

Barry plus a pick for Shane Battier -- Battier has mostly need a disappointment for the Rockets this year. Adelman would probably welcome a move that got more time for Bonzi Wells. This could become more likely if the Rockets fall out of the playoff picture and want to shed some salary.

Barry for Jason Kapono - The Spurs went after another one dimensional shooter with a bad contract (Korver), so why not his twin brother? Kapono lost his starting job and the Raptors may want to open up more consistent time for players like Moon and Delfino.

Barry, Elson plus picks for Andre Miller - If Parker is going to be hobbled for the rest of the year, Miller is probably the best point guard available who might be had in a salary dump.

barry -> shane : but who will our 3rd string pg be?

barry -> j.kap : why not delfino?

barry -> miller : hmm.....maybe, maybe....i like barry better.

do any of you think it's possible to get hermann?

[MaNu4Tres]

If the Spurs are going to make a trade, it'd be a trade that flipped an expiring contract for a younger player with a longer contract on a team wanting to clear cap space. For example, the Spurs made a run at Kyle Korver ... who'd fit exactly into this scenario.

Trades that make sense to me:

Barry plus a pick for Shane Battier -- Battier has mostly need a disappointment for the Rockets this year. Adelman would probably welcome a move that got more time for Bonzi Wells. This could become more likely if the Rockets fall out of the playoff picture and want to shed some salary.

Barry, Elson and picks for Udonis Haslem and Smush Parker -- Heat get to dump salary. Spurs get a mobile big that could make a living next to Duncan.

Barry for Jason Kapono - The Spurs went after another one dimensional shooter with a bad contract (Korver), so why not his twin brother? Kapono lost his starting job and the Raptors may want to open up more consistent time for players like Moon and Delfino.

Barry, Elson plus picks for Andre Miller - If Parker is going to be hobbled for the rest of the year, Miller is probably the best point guard available who might be had in a salary dump.



I was thinking of realistic trades.

I've always liked Battier. But in reality I really don't see Rockets giving up anyone except for Mike James/ Kirk Snyder/ or CHuck Hayes with the emergence of Carl Landry. Just my opinion Rockets could get a lot more better offers for Battier.

If the Heat were unwilling to part with Haslem to get Mike Bibby what makes you think they would part with Haslem for Barry and Elson?

and If those last two scenarios did go through who's minutes would they take?

[MaNu4Tres]

I'd kill for Haslem by the way.

[freemeat]

Email the league:

"We are keeping the Big Three. Everyone else is expendable. Make an offer."

[THE SIXTH MAN]

Barry, Elson plus picks for Andre Miller - If Parker is going to be hobbled for the rest of the year, Miller is probably the best point guard available who might be had in a salary dump.
Out of all those scenarios this one would help the most. I like our wings and bigs as is. This trade or the Smush and Udonis trade would both benefit the Spurs.

[Dingle Barry]

Vaughn and Finley for a DQ Hunger Buster

[TDMVPDPOY]

barry -> shane : but who will our 3rd string pg be?

barry -> j.kap : why not delfino?

barry -> miller : hmm.....maybe, maybe....i like barry better.

do any of you think it's possible to get hermann?

i dont think we need to pull another trade with the rockets

barry for delfino is a huge downgrade, a guy who cant get into the raptors rotation, what next? whine on teh spurs his not gettin minutes?

herman? fabio v.2 no thanks

only trade now that makes sense is to strike a deal with the bulls for nocioni + a big maybe noah or griffin/gray either one would do, for our expirings and draft picks

they shed payroll to sign the extentions 2 most overhype players who didnt deliver this season ben gordan and deng

[genomefreak13]

If the Spurs are going to make a trade, it'd be a trade that flipped an expiring contract for a younger player with a longer contract on a team wanting to clear cap space. For example, the Spurs made a run at Kyle Korver ... who'd fit exactly into this scenario.

Trades that make sense to me:

Barry plus a pick for Shane Battier -- Battier has mostly need a disappointment for the Rockets this year. Adelman would probably welcome a move that got more time for Bonzi Wells. This could become more likely if the Rockets fall out of the playoff picture and want to shed some salary.

Barry, Elson and picks for Udonis Haslem and Smush Parker -- Heat get to dump salary. Spurs get a mobile big that could make a living next to Duncan.

Barry for Jason Kapono - The Spurs went after another one dimensional shooter with a bad contract (Korver), so why not his twin brother? Kapono lost his starting job and the Raptors may want to open up more consistent time for players like Moon and Delfino.

Barry, Elson plus picks for Andre Miller - If Parker is going to be hobbled for the rest of the year, Miller is probably the best point guard available who might be had in a salary dump.

I go for the battier trade. I always wanted shane in the spurs. He's a young bruce bowen in my books. But I don't see the light of day on this one. The rockets rely heavily on shane on so many things (like defense and 3pt shooting). He would be welcome though, if ever he wanna ride with us.

[mountainballer]

Here's a few trade proposals I'd consider...Tell me what you think


Barry/ Elson for Kurt Thomas ...why would sonics do it? I heard on Mark Stein tonight on ESPN say that the Sonics are pleased with the work he has done for them, and would consider trading him to a contender out of respect. As long as it doesn't hurt them financially in the coming years as they try to rebuild ( as long as they get back expiring contracts). Yes trading Barry might be tough to let go, but he has become expendable with Udoka's play as of late.

Barry and a pick for Brendon Haywood .. Just a thought. Haywood has 2 years left after this year for roughly 11 million. Therefore it wouldn't effect the 2010 plan. If we were too trade Barry's contract alone for a big man. I would consider Elson being dealt for insurance on the wing.

Barry and Elson and a pick for Jeff Foster Shawne Williams and Oriene Greene. Not sure if Pacers are desperate to clear 8 million off their cap. But they could be.

Barry and 2nd rounder for Mikki Moore. Both have expiring contracts. I highly doubt Kings are willing to resign Mikki Moore after this year with the contracts of Abdur-Rahim, Kenny Thomas, and Brad Miller exceeding 25 million next year. Again after a deal like this I'd send Elson for a 5th wing.

Barry and Elson for Mark Blount and Smush Parker. Why? Heat are desperate to shave off cap space ASAP. Then again they might have second thoughts. The way I see it even with Mark Blount's 2 more years for 15 million. Spurs are only going to be able to sign players this offseason with the MLE anyway even with all the expiring contracts and this wouldn't effect the 2010 plan.

Elson and a 1st round pick for Joakim Noah. We all know the chemistry issues this rookie has stirred in Chicago. You never know.

Barry Elson and 1st round pick for Chris Wilcox. They are in rebuilding mode and refused to give Wilcox a long-term deal. Mine as well get an extra 1st round pick for a rental for another year.

Barry and a 1st round pick for Joe Smith. Pretty sure he's making his last run and isn't in Chicago's future financial plans with Deng and Gordon's desired paychecks.


sorry, but is there a special benefit for a team if it trades with the Spurs??
yes, all the mentioned players are probably availabe. but if this players are put on the market, other team can (and will) offer better packages.
Noah for Elson plus a pick (which as usual isn't a very good one). what a crap.
and if you didn't notice: Noah has seen his minutes doubled in the last two weeks.

Foster for Barry is somehow realistic, but you think the Pacers just trow in a young promising talent on a cheap rookie contract????? jezzzz

[THE SIXTH MAN]

barry -> shane : but who will our 3rd string pg be?

barry -> j.kap : why not delfino?

barry -> miller : hmm.....maybe, maybe....i like barry better.

do any of you think it's possible to get hermann?
:lol How are you going to dog on those players and then ask if getting Hermann is possible! :rollin

Also I dont think the Spurs should deal with the rockets anymore. :pctoss

[MaNu4Tres]

Out of all those scenarios this one would help the most. I like our wings and bigs as is. This trade or the Smush and Udonis trade would both benefit the Spurs.


Well duh those are better scenarios, I was thinking realistically. Hell what about these scenarios

..Barry Elson for Nocioni and Noah..

or what about Barry and Elson for Josh Smith and Zaza Pachulia..

or even Barry and Elson for Andrew Bogut and Charlie Bell...

Just my opinion on the realistic side of those proposals.

[timvp]

Just my opinion Rockets could get a lot more better offers for Battier.Is there really a market for a role playing defender who gets paid a lot of money for a lot of years? What types of teams would be going after him? I don't think his trade value is that high this year considering his offense has fallen off.


If the Heat were unwilling to part with Haslem to get Mike Bibby what makes you think they would part with Haslem for Barry and Elson?Because Bibby isn't an expiring contract. Riley has talked about opening up salary cap room this summer. To do so they'd have to trade Haslem for expiring contracts. Although it's likely the Heat would hold out until they found someone to take Haslem and Blount for expiring contracts.


and If those last two scenarios did go through who's minutes would they take?Kapono would play the Barry role and if you would read what I said next to the Miller trade, you'd see that I was talking about a scenario where the Spurs needed to replace a hobbled Parker.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Foster for Barry is somehow realistic, but you think the Pacers just trow in a young promising talent on a cheap rookie contract????? jezzzz

You never know, i read that JO was spotted in NJ for a house, so maybe a trade is on teh block soon, so if the pacers are rebuilding, might as well clear the roster and get watever they can in return

[THE SIXTH MAN]

Well duh those are better scenarios, I was thinking realistically. Hell what about these scenarios

..Barry Elson for Nocioni and Noah..

or what about Barry and Elson for Josh Smith and Zaza Pachulia..

or even Barry and Elson for Andrew Bogut and Charlie Bell...

Just my opinion on the realistic side of those proposals.
:jack GTFO of here with your "realistic" proposals then.

Matter fact just close this thread now.

Given the Spurs past there not making a trade before the deadline. :rolleyes

[objective]

sorry, but is there a special benefit for a team if it trades with the Spurs??
yes, all the mentioned players are probably availabe. but if this players are put on the market, other team can (and will) offer better packages.
Noah for Elson plus a pick (which as usual isn't a very good one). what a crap.
and if you didn't notice: Noah has seen his minutes doubled in the last two weeks.

Foster for Barry is somehow realistic, but you think the Pacers just trow in a young promising talent on a cheap rookie contract????? jezzzz

correct.

Some overrating of the Spurs' chips in these scenarios. Brendan Haywood? He's having close to an all-star caliber season (for the east that is).

Barry + Elson plus future first(s) (in the 20s no doubt) aren't worth much. People should be thinking more in the realm of Melvin Ely last year when Eric Williams' expiring contract plus a second rounder got us an out of the rotation never developed end of contract Ely.

Maybe if the rights to Splitter are thrown in that might make a tiny difference, but considering that draftpicks were for sale where Splitter was available and no one bit to take him who can say if that will even get the Spurs anywhere.

Maybe Stromile Swift could be had for Barry + Splitter. And who honestly wants that?

[MaNu4Tres]

sorry, but is there a special benefit for a team if it trades with the Spurs??
yes, all the mentioned players are probably availabe. but if this players are put on the market, other team can (and will) offer better packages.
Noah for Elson plus a pick (which as usual isn't a very good one). what a crap.
and if you didn't notice: Noah has seen his minutes doubled in the last two weeks.

Foster for Barry is somehow realistic, but you think the Pacers just trow in
a young promising talent on a cheap rookie contract????? jezzzz


Your making Shawne Williams out like I said Danny Granger lol. Shawne Williams has some value, but so does a first round pick and 8 million off the books. Especially with the emergence of Mike Dunleavy and Granger at his position Shawne Williams could be expendable.


In my opinion picks and 8 million off the books to me is valuable enough for the players I mentioned.

I have my opinions you have yours. I was just throwing ideas out there.

[MagnusKrauss]

i just thought that since the rockets would probably hold onto battier, the bulls would keep nocioni, we might as well get hermann. so he's no good? no problem.

so, are there any players (who are available) who can play SF-SG-PG out there?

btw, i don't see Andre Miller playing much, as i have only enough free time to watch Spurs games. can he shoot three's reliably? i know that he has a good post game, and he's bigger than the average guard...right?

[THE SIXTH MAN]

i just thought that since the rockets would probably hold onto battier, the bulls would keep nocioni, we might as well get hermann. so he's no good? no problem.

so, are there any players (who are available) who can play SF-SG-PG out there?

btw, i don't see Andre Miller playing much, as i have only enough free time to watch Spurs games. can he shoot three's reliably? i know that he has a good post game, and he's bigger than the average guard...right?
:toast Ha ha no problem.

Actually I understand where timvp is coming from with the Andre Miller trade. If the Spurs are going to sign Stoudmire, Miller would be a better option then him at point.

[MaNu4Tres]

I just don't think its worth bringing in another wing, unless he can break the playoff 8 man rotation and can make a big impact come April May and June. To do that we would have to package Finley, Barry, Elson and picks. With trading just Barry and or Elson we won't get a wing or a point guard that will really really contribute come April May and June. Realisticaly. That's another reason why a move for a big man that can contribute makes more sense to me. The play of the 4 bigs outside of Duncan has been horrendous.

[MagnusKrauss]

i doubt pop would trade fin.

maybe finley has some photos of pop drinking beer or tequila.

elson, on the other hand, would be good trade material.

poor brent. he's been on the trading block since we went after maggette.

[MaNu4Tres]

[QUOTE=MagnusKrauss]i doubt pop would trade fin.QUOTE]


Thats my point. I highly doubt Pop trades Fin. At the same time, I highly doubt we would be able to get a wing for Barry and Elson that would be good enough to break the 8-9 man playoff rotation and make an actual impact, unless we were to include Finley and more picks, which I realistically don't see happening. A defensive big man makes more sense to me.

[mountainballer]

If the Spurs are going to make a trade, it'd be a trade that flipped an expiring contract for a younger player with a longer contract on a team wanting to clear cap space. For example, the Spurs made a run at Kyle Korver ... who'd fit exactly into this scenario.

Trades that make sense to me:

Barry plus a pick for Shane Battier -- Battier has mostly need a disappointment for the Rockets this year. Adelman would probably welcome a move that got more time for Bonzi Wells. This could become more likely if the Rockets fall out of the playoff picture and want to shed some salary.

Barry, Elson and picks for Udonis Haslem and Smush Parker -- Heat get to dump salary. Spurs get a mobile big that could make a living next to Duncan.

Barry for Jason Kapono - The Spurs went after another one dimensional shooter with a bad contract (Korver), so why not his twin brother? Kapono lost his starting job and the Raptors may want to open up more consistent time for players like Moon and Delfino.

Barry, Elson plus picks for Andre Miller - If Parker is going to be hobbled for the rest of the year, Miller is probably the best point guard available who might be had in a salary dump.


again, I can see that all of this players are available for the right price, but the price you mention will easily outbid by many other teams.
Battier doesn't play his best season, but calling him a disappointment is a bit harsh. did he see his minutes reduced? no. he still is a very important part of the team. they once sacrificed Gay for him. now they want to dump him for cap relieve and a (likely low) pick?

Kapono? yes, the Raptors overpayed for him. but are they willing to weaken the team by dumping him for (an injured) Barry? can't see Colangelo do this. not him.
btw. Kapono didn't lose minutes to Delfino and Moon. the reason was the red hot shooting of Calderon and Parker, they got more minutes and those minutes came from Kapono.

Elson plus Barry for Haslem and Parker makes the most sense and might be realistic.
my guess is, the Spurs will have to sweeten the deal with at least a pick. just because if the Heat put this package on the market, they will get better offers than just the expiring contracts. think Lakers. they could offer Brown's contract plus a talent like Farmer or Crittenton who fill Heats future needs. and Lakers will make a run for Haslem.

[objective]

btw, i don't see Andre Miller playing much, as i have only enough free time to watch Spurs games. can he shoot three's reliably? i know that he has a good post game, and he's bigger than the average guard...right?

Andre Miller is one of if not the best lob passer in the NBA.

Which wouldn't mean much on a team like the Spurs with alley-oop possibilities like Duncan, Oberto, Bonner and Horry.

[objective]

---------

I think Toronto could make a deal for expirings so they could clear lux-tax room to re-sign Calderon, who might be getting sizable offers this summer. Then again, as an RFA, he might get stuck in limbo with regards to offers like players this past summer, resulting in Toronto keeping him for relatively cheap.

---------------

I don't see Haslem as a realistic possibility. He's not tremendously overpaid, he's still young, he's still producing and statistically having his best season for points and rebounds, nearly a double double.

[ChumpDumper]

The only thing Miami has to do to create cap space is buy out Shaq.

[TDMVPDPOY]

how about a trade to charlotte for okafor who is under utilise?

i throw in splitters right if had to...and get rid of the 09/10 FA plan

[mountainballer]

The only thing Miami has to do to create cap space is buy out Shaq.

?
a buy out still counts against the cap, or do you really see Shaq take a buy out much less than his salary?
(jesus, can't wait for all the new threads claiming that Shaq then will sign with the Spurs for the vet. minimum, because he's desperate for a ring)

[mountainballer]

poor brent. he's been on the trading block since we went after maggette.

he's been on the block since the 2005/06 season, when only a paper work mistake prevented him from being traded.

[Streakyshooter08]

Well, if you look at it there are not a lot of players the Spurs would want to trade.

TD/Manu/TP ... no way
Horry/Finley/Bruce/Oberto... very unlikely, unless you get a really good player in return
Udoka/Vaughn have really small contracts and will stay

That leaves Barry, Elson, Mahinmi and Bonner. If they do trade it should be a big for a big or a wing for a wing. It would not make sense to trade big for small or vice versa at the moment.

Out of those players Barry probably has the most value. He is a solid role player with an expireing contract. Neither Elson nor Bonner would bring good value back in a trade.

The biggest problem I see is that there are not too many players available that would really help the Spurs right now without giving too much. The most likely scenario is that they sign Stoudamire and hope that TP is not that hurt. If they are healthy their chance off winning it all is still good.

[timvp]

again, I can see that all of this players are available for the right price, but the price you mention will easily outbid by many other teams.
Battier doesn't play his best season, but calling him a disappointment is a bit harsh. did he see his minutes reduced? no. he still is a very important part of the team. they once sacrificed Gay for him. now they want to dump him for cap relieve and a (likely low) pick? If the Rockets could do it over again, they would have never trade Gay for Battier. That was a horrible trade.

And Battier was brought on board because he fit the Jeff Van Gundy's schemes. And yeah, he has been a disappointment. He has scored less points per minutes than Jacque Vaughn. On a team that has been without McGrady for much of the first half of the season, that's shockingly pathetic.

Now that I think about it more, I think that trade is unfair to the Spurs. San Antonio already has enough perimeter players that can't score. Scratch that trade idea.


Kapono didn't lose minutes to Delfino and Moon. the reason was the red hot shooting of Calderon and Parker, they got more minutes and those minutes came from Kapono.:lol What the hell are you talking about? Calderon is the team's point guard. Calderon is playing more because TJ Ford is out. That has nothing to do with Kapono.

Kapono was supposed to start for the Raptors at small forward. Moon beat him out for that job. Now even Delfino is eating away minutes at the small forward position.

And Anthony Parker is a shooting guard. He too has very little to do with the Kapono situation. I wouldn't especially like the Spurs trading for Kapono but if they are going to go after Korver, Kapono is basically the same player with the same contract. And Sam Mitchell doesn't seem to like Kapono all that much.


Elson plus Barry for Haslem and Parker makes the most sense and might be realistic.
my guess is, the Spurs will have to sweeten the deal with at least a pick. just because if the Heat put this package on the market, they will get better offers than just the expiring contracts. think Lakers. they could offer Brown's contract plus a talent like Farmer or Crittenton who fill Heats future needs. and Lakers will make a run for Haslem.I think that Haslem deal is highly unlikely. It would have to take the perfect storm of the Heat wanting to open up cap room with no other teams willing to eat Miami's contracts.

[doldrums]

Battier cannot be judged by points, that is not his role. As a fantasy player ,he is great: consistently getting blocks, rebounds, assists and steals. Yes folks there is more to judging talent than points per game. Now should they have traded Gay for him -hell no!

[pad300]

If the Rockets could do it over again, they would have never trade Gay for Battier. That was a horrible trade.

And Battier was brought on board because he fit the Jeff Van Gundy's schemes. And yeah, he has been a disappointment. He has scored less points per minutes than Jacque Vaughn. On a team that has been without McGrady for much of the first half of the season, that's shockingly pathetic.

Now that I think about it more, I think that trade is unfair to the Spurs. San Antonio already has enough perimeter players that can't score. Scratch that trade idea.

:lol What the hell are you talking about? Calderon is the team's point guard. Calderon is playing more because TJ Ford is out. That has nothing to do with Kapono.

Kapono was supposed to start for the Raptors at small forward. Moon beat him out for that job. Now even Delfino is eating away minutes at the small forward position.

And Anthony Parker is a shooting guard. He too has very little to do with the Kapono situation. I wouldn't especially like the Spurs trading for Kapono but if they are going to go after Korver, Kapono is basically the same player with the same contract. And Sam Mitchell doesn't seem to like Kapono all that much.

I think that Haslem deal is highly unlikely. It would have to take the perfect storm of the Heat wanting to open up cap room with no other teams willing to eat Miami's contracts.

Some Numbers
Barry, Net PER as an SF +3.8, EFG% 0.630
Battier, Net PER as an SF -1.8, EFG% 0.539
Kapono, Net PER as an SF -1.3, EFG% 0.572

We underrate Barry badly on this board. He's better than a lot of people think, particularly as a lubricant in our offense.

If I was going to trade with Houston, I would ask for Battier and Hayes. Hayes might not have much PT this season, what with Scola showing up, but he could earn quite a bit with us; he's got a real talent for rebounding. I would likely do such a trade, as Battier is not completely encompassed by statistical measures.

I would not trade for Kapono. Unlike Battier, he doesn't bring more than the box score, and Barry is simply a better player, as well as being on an expiring contract, with us holding his Bird rights...He might very well re-sign with us for the vet min next year.

Finally, the I agree with TIMVP, the Haslem deal is exceedingly unlikely.

[angel_luv]

Barry for Jason Kapono - The Spurs went after another one dimensional shooter with a bad contract (Korver), so why not his twin brother? Kapono lost his starting job and the Raptors may want to open up more consistent time for players like Moon and Delfino.

Brent is one of my favorites, but if he has to be traded, then this is the one I would like to see.

[tomcat]

Not to bust your bubble, but Orien Greene was waived by the Pacers then signed by Sacramento and cut before they got Beno.............. :rolleyes

More research please.

Mikki Moore signed a multiyear deal with Sacramento. :rolleyes

[AFBlue]

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_8109739


The truth is, the only deal the Nuggets are likely to make before the trade deadline is one that would ship J.R. Smith out of town. And any player the Nuggets would get in return probably wouldn't impact their season.

Looks like JR Smith's trade value is at its lowest since being with the Hornets when the Spurs almost pulled of that trade for him.

Elson for Smith and Wafer

[Big P]

Mikki Moore will not put us over the top. I would rather have Barry's shooting ability during the playoffs.

[urunobili]

to be brought: Haslem would be a dream... very unlikely thought... Kapono would fit nicely but i still believe Pop will respect Barry's last year...
to get rid of: Bonner, Elson, Oberto

[MoSpur]

Horry and Elson for Wilcox. Or Horry and Oberto for Wilcox

[timmy21_4rings]

so you're not a big Barry fan then

The reason I like any trade involving Barry is that it is not easy to get a good/ok level players without including Barry's salary. He has got nice expiring contract.

You might not get good/ok level players easily for let us say 2 million. That is why it is hard to get a decent return on trade by involving players like Finley (getting around 1.5 and 2 million). Interestingly the opposite of it also true. So Barry's salary is kind of at the right place.

[yavozerb]

Elson for antoine wright and marcus williams(pg) from NJ

[Mr. Body]

Elson for antoine wright and marcus williams(pg) from NJ

And New Jersey will ask for a screwdriver up the ass!

[ChumpDumper]

?
a buy out still counts against the cap, or do you really see Shaq take a buy out much less than his salary?
out of sheer embarrassment, yes.

[da_suns_fan]

Here's a few trade proposals I'd consider...Tell me what you think


Barry/ Elson for Kurt Thomas ...why would sonics do it? I heard on Mark Stein tonight on ESPN say that the Sonics are pleased with the work he has done for them, and would consider trading him to a contender out of respect. As long as it doesn't hurt them financially in the coming years as they try to rebuild ( as long as they get back expiring contracts). Yes trading Barry might be tough to let go, but he has become expendable with Udoka's play as of late.

Barry and a pick for Brendon Haywood .. Just a thought. Haywood has 2 years left after this year for roughly 11 million. Therefore it wouldn't effect the 2010 plan. If we were too trade Barry's contract alone for a big man. I would consider Elson being dealt for insurance on the wing.

Barry and Elson and a pick for Jeff Foster Shawne Williams and Oriene Greene. Not sure if Pacers are desperate to clear 8 million off their cap. But they could be.

Barry and 2nd rounder for Mikki Moore. Both have expiring contracts. I highly doubt Kings are willing to resign Mikki Moore after this year with the contracts of Abdur-Rahim, Kenny Thomas, and Brad Miller exceeding 25 million next year. Again after a deal like this I'd send Elson for a 5th wing.

Barry and Elson for Mark Blount and Smush Parker. Why? Heat are desperate to shave off cap space ASAP. Then again they might have second thoughts. The way I see it even with Mark Blount's 2 more years for 15 million. Spurs are only going to be able to sign players this offseason with the MLE anyway even with all the expiring contracts and this wouldn't effect the 2010 plan.

Elson and a 1st round pick for Joakim Noah. We all know the chemistry issues this rookie has stirred in Chicago. You never know.

Barry Elson and 1st round pick for Chris Wilcox. They are in rebuilding mode and refused to give Wilcox a long-term deal. Mine as well get an extra 1st round pick for a rental for another year.

Barry and a 1st round pick for Joe Smith. Pretty sure he's making his last run and isn't in Chicago's future financial plans with Deng and Gordon's desired paychecks.

1. Possibly. Expiring contract for expiring contracts.

2. Pipe dream! If the Wiz want cap space, they'll just let Atwan Jamison come off the books. Not to mention how productive Haywood has been and how GREAT his contract is. Dream on.

3. No way. Only way this could happen is if the Pacers were DESPERATE to cut payroll. Even if that were true, why would they want to get rid of their GOOD contracts? Im sure they're much more willing to part with Murphy or Dunleavy than those guys.

4. Miki Moore has been the Kings' most productive big man he has the GOOD contract! You want a King? Brad Miller's a better possibility.

5. This one's possible.

6. Elson and pick for Noah? Are you serious? :lol If the Bulls want to trade Noah, Im sure they can get MUCH better offers than Elson and a Spurs pick. Don't think anyone else wants a 7 foot rookie who can rebound like no other and plays with intensity?

7. No.

8. No.

[tav1]

I didn't think it was a legit idea this morning, but the Battier trade would make a lot of sense for Houston. The more I've thought about this, the more logical it seems. And I like the idea because Battier for Barry works straight up. That would still allow us to shop Elson and/or Bonner for another big.

But I think Houston will try to move T-Mac first and then, based on the pieces they get back, evaluate Battier.

[Mr. Body]

Rockets'd be nuts to give up Battier. Nuts.

[timvp]

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_8109739



Looks like JR Smith's trade value is at its lowest since being with the Hornets when the Spurs almost pulled of that trade for him.

Elson for Smith and WaferJR Smith is freakin' crazy. He's a kid who grew up rich that tries to pretend he's Tupac reincarnate. Unless he turns his life around, he could be dead within five years.





















That said, I'd take him in a heart beat. He's an athlete who can shoot the ball. He's been around long enough that it's not unreasonable that he could help right away. His skillset is exactly the type that could jump start this team -- and his stock is at an all-time low.

[tav1]

The truth is Battier is not at all a good fit in Adelman's system. His numbers are down across the board. And he's on the hook for 4 years... I'd shed the cap, and create time for Wells, Landry, Hayes and Scola. There is a case to be made for moving him for an expiring cap and a pick.

As a Spurs fan, I think he's overpaid and overextended for our cap projections. But desperate times call for desperate measures. And we'd still need to bring in another big (aside from Mahinmi and Splitter) another point and, perhaps, another 2 this offseason.

[da_suns_fan]

LMAO!

The Rockets are going to trade Battier to a division rival for Brent Barry?

"Dream on.....Dream on"

- Steven Tyler

[da_suns_fan]

Here's a thought, no one in the western conference is going to trade any player with an upside to the Spurs.

Especially not for Brent Barry or Francisco Elson.

Unless you guys want Marcus Banks? We'll trade ya him straight up for Elson!

[nkdlunch]

I agree some ppl need to get back to reality

[PhxDog]

Bonner for Scola, maybe?

[tav1]

The only way I'd want J.R. Smith is if we could unload Bonner's dead weight contract in the process, which I doubt. Otherwise, I pass.

[cheguevara]

Latrell Sprewel. Get it done

[MoSpur]

There are rumors that the Bucks want to trade Charlie Villanueva. He has a lot of upside.

[MoSpur]

I'm sure the Bucks would like to clear cap space. A guy like Elson who is coming off the books might be someone they'd be interested in.

[spursjustice]

agreed... the Bulls used a pretty high draft pick on him... I don't think they'll let him go that easily...



This works for me. It's a quick fix and it would help the team get younger. I don't think though, that the bulls would let go of Noah that easy

[MaNu4Tres]

There are rumors that the Bucks want to trade Charlie Villanueva. He has a lot of upside.



That would be nice. Realistically we'd have to include 2-3 future first round picks and Elson and maybe even more picks. Last year Villanueva was traded for TJ Ford straight up. We definately don't have even half the value TJ ford had last year.

[MoSpur]

Villanueva's trade value is not that high right now. I think they'd be fine with Elson and a pick.

[AFBlue]

There are rumors that the Bucks want to trade Charlie Villanueva. He has a lot of upside.

They also want to trade Dan Gadzuric and Bobby Simmons who are on big, long-term contracts relative to their talent-level.

I'm sure they can get someone to bite on taking one of those contracts if they dangle Villanueva along with him.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

JR Smith. Trade for him, the Spurs must.

[AFBlue]

JR Smith. Trade for him, the Spurs must.


Agreed...

http://swg.stratics.com/content/lore/personas/images/yoda.gif

DO IT, POP MUST!

[MaNu4Tres]

Villanueva's trade value is not that high right now. I think they'd be fine with Elson and a pick.



Villanueva is their 5th best player. He only makes 2.7 million this year, what makes you think his value has gone down? Yes his scoring averages has dipped down from 11.8 to 9.3, but he only gets paid 2.7 million and is one of the few players in the league that can play the 5, 4, and 3. I like the idea I just don't think its reasonable trading a young player with a high ceiling just so you can save 3 million. They could get a lot better offers if he was on the block. I have yet to see rumors where it says Bucks are listening to offers for Villanueva. I'd imagine they would try to use him to get rid of Gadzuric and Simmons ridiculous contracts. Something Spurs can't afford to do.

[AFBlue]

Villanueva is their 5th best player. He only makes 2.7 million this year, what makes you think his value has gone down? Yes his scoring averages has dipped down from 11.8 to 9.3, but he only gets paid 2.7 million and is one of the few players in the league that can play the 5, 4, and 3. I like the idea I just don't think its reasonable trading a young player with a high ceiling just so you can save 3 million. They could get a lot better offers if he was on the block. I have yet to see rumors where it says Bucks are listening to offers for Villanueva. I'd imagine they would try to use him to get rid of Gadzuric and Simmons ridiculous contracts. Something Spurs can't afford to do.


You guys have a difference of opinion and I doubt either of you will convince the other.

But I haven't seen a single thing that makes me believe the Spurs would go after yet another three-point shooting PF....they have two already. So to me, the point of his relative trade value is moot.

[td4mvp21]

We need a better big man....and a wing player that will FUCKING HIT HIS SHOTS!!!!!

[ss1986v2]

But I haven't seen a single thing that makes me believe the Spurs would go after yet another three-point shooting PF....they have two already. So to me, the point of his relative trade value is moot.
agreed. his skill set is very similar to bonner, except he cant shoot (but thinks he can), but has a higher upside overall. im not saying bonner > CV, but why add more redundancy to the rotation?

ive swung my support behind a barry+elson+pick for kurt thomas trade. he gives us some interior defense, rebounding, and can knock down the 15ft jump shot with good consistency.

[tav1]

Villanueva's trade value is not that high right now. I think they'd be fine with Elson and a pick.

The Bucks want to use Villanueva as a sweetener. Gadzuric and Vil is probably what they are shopping, but I doubt anyone is that sweet on Vil. Milwaukee basically wants to blow it up and build around the Chinese Cash Cow. Vil affects his minutes. Vil must go. They're are also shopping Redd.

I've advocated for Villanueva on other threads--my reasoning is basically this: he's cheap, he's locked up for another season; he's an ***effective*** 3 point shooting 4 (as opposed to Horry and Bonner); he has something of a post game; he can put the ball on the floor; he's not too shabby on the boards (again, better than Bonner and Horry); he would allow the Spurs to move Bonner this summer, or before. And, in general, he's help our scoring problems. If we can move Elson and a pick for him, he'd be a steal.

[MaNu4Tres]

The Bucks want to use Villanueva as a sweetener. Gadzuric and Vil is probably what they are shopping, but I doubt anyone is that sweet on Vil. Milwaukee basically wants to blow it up and build around the Chinese Cash Cow. Vil affects his minutes. Vil must go. They're are also shopping Redd.

I've advocated for Villanueva on other threads--my reasoning is basically this: he's cheap, he's locked up for another season; he's an ***effective*** 3 point shooting 4 (as opposed to Horry and Bonner); he has something of a post game; he can put the ball on the floor; he's not too shabby on the boards (again, better than Bonner and Horry); he would allow the Spurs to move Bonner this summer, or before. And, in general, he's help our scoring problems. If we can move Elson and a pick for him, he'd be a steal.


There's no way we can get Villanueva at his price 2.7 million straight up for any of our players Bonner Finley Elson. NO WAY that will happen. The only way we get Villanueva is if we send 2 -3 first round picks( which won't happen) or take on Gadzuric's contract. I'm tired of hearing all these unrealistic trades. Elson and a pick for Villanueva won't and never will happen. Bucks would laugh at that trade proposal. Their priority is to get rid of Simmons Gadzuric's contracts. Clearing 2.7 million off their books isn't necessarily clearly cap space to sign free agents that can make a bigger difference than Villanueva.


And for the love and obsession of trading Elson and a pick for JR Smith..

What the hell is that going to do. Yes trade a big man ( something we are very thin at) for a wing that is just as good as our 5th wing and won't see but 10 minutes a game IF he's lucky.You guys act like theres 180 minutes to hand out at the 2 and 3 positions. There's only 96 minutes to go around at the wing. You figure Manu's 35, Bowen's typical 30 thats already 65. Then you have 30 more minutes for Finley Barry Udoka.The only way I see us trading for a wing is if he's worthy enough to break the 8 man playoff rotation and make an immediate and big impact. In order for that to happen we'd have to include finley barry and elson and maybe 2 picks to get someone GOOD enough to actually STEAL minutes from our proven veterans in Bowen Manu Finley Udoka and Barry. If we traded Elson for a wing the best thing we would get back is a garbage time wing. To me thats not worth making our weak frontcourt even weaker and thinner.

[Chucho]

Yes trade a big man ( something we are very thin at)
Horry, Bonner, Elson, Oberto. That's not thin at all. You have the definitions of thin and inefficient terribly mixed up. Oberto can't stay out of foul trouble long enough to contribute, Elson plain out sucks, Bonner is hit and miss as much as anyone in the League and Bobs is just plain old and neither of them or a combination of the two can score and rebound reliably and with consistency. Our bigs lineup isn't thin when it goes four deep outside Tim, it's just terribly inefficient or old. Getting rid of any two of them for a wing and another big can't be any worse than what we have now.

[tav1]

Villanueva only plays 19 minutes a game and has a PER of 13. There is no GM in the league that would give up more than one mid to late 1st round pick for him. He'd be a nice addition, but he's never making an All Star team. He'll never compete for a 6th man. Why do you think he has so much value? And it's not just the 2.7 million the Bucks clear, it's the floor time for Yi that is most important. If Larry Harris can't package him with a bogus contract, then an expiring contract and a pick is doing o.k.

[MaNu4Tres]

Horry, Bonner, Elson, Oberto. That's not thin at all. You have the definitions of thin and inefficient terribly mixed up. Oberto can't stay out of foul trouble long enough to contribute, Elson plain out sucks, Bonner is hit and miss as much as anyone in the League and Bobs is just plain old and neither of them or a combination of the two can score and rebound reliably and with consistency. Our bigs lineup isn't thin when it goes four deep outside Tim, it's just terribly inefficient or old. Getting rid of any two of them for a wing and another big can't be any worse than what we have now.


So pick a sentence I said and exploit it lol. The way i see it is this. Trading Elson and even a pick won't get us a wing that will see minutes when it counts. So getting rid of a one of the 2 big mans that can actually jump and contest the rim to some extent for a wing that rides the bench doesn't make sense to me. Our big's production outside of Tim is highly inferrior especially defensively and off of production our front court is THIN. Oberto does nothing for us defensively except provide a ladder for an and 1 for opposing wings who penetrate. Bonner is the same. Last year Horry played his ass off defensively, which I think was more critical than Oberto making wide open lay ups and setting decent screens. To me it would be very nice to have a defensive big man to come in and help instead putting all our eggs in Horry's basket again. Just the safe way to go.

[MaNu4Tres]

Villanueva only plays 19 minutes a game and has a PER of 13. There is no GM in the league that would give up more than one mid to late 1st round pick for him. He'd be a nice addition, but he's never making an All Star team. He'll never compete for a 6th man. Why do you think he has so much value? And it's not just the 2.7 million the Bucks clear, it's the floor time for Yi that is most important. If Larry Harris can't package him with a bogus contract, then an expiring contract and a pick is doing o.k.



That's your opinion, I have mine. I just don't think we can trade Elson and a pick to get Villanueva. Hell the only thing we got for beno was a protected 2nd round pick. Same with Scola. What makes you think a very late first rounder and a big who never plays will be enough to get Villanueva, I'm not even putting Villanueva on a pedastool either. Just my opinion.

[tav1]

So pick a sentence I said and exploit it lol. The way i see it is this. Trading Elson and even a pick won't get us a wing that will see minutes when it counts. So getting rid of a one of the 2 big mans that can actually jump and contest the rim to some extent for a wing that rides the bench doesn't make sense to me. Our big's production outside of Tim is highly inferrior especially defensively and off of production our front court is THIN. Oberto does nothing for us defensively except provide a ladder for an and 1 for opposing wings who penetrate. Bonner is the same. Last year Horry played his ass off defensively, which I think was more critical than Oberto making wide open lay ups and setting decent screens. To me it would be very nice to have a defensive big man to come in and help instead putting all our eggs in Horry's basket again. Just the safe way to go.

I basically agree with this. I think we should put the wing thing to rest until the offseason.

If we do trade for a traditional big, it ought to be for a vet with a decent basketball iq. And for someone with a defined talent, like a gnack for rebounding or shot blocking. I think Kurt Thomas and Jeff Foster make a whole lot of sense but their price is steep relative to our roster. A young guy like Channing Frye might help, but that's debatable. PJ Brown is probably too out of shape. So that leaves guys like Adonal Foyle and Joe Smith.

Foyle is not a great big by any stretch, but he can rebound and shot block. He's high character, high intelligence. And at 1.2 million we could use a trade exception or possibly Bonner's BYC number.

[pku47]

Barry plus a pick for Shane Battier -- Battier has mostly need a disappointment for the Rockets this year. Adelman would probably welcome a move that got more time for Bonzi Wells. This could become more likely if the Rockets fall out of the playoff picture and want to shed some salary.
I would be happy to see this happens.

but I believe a CHINESE company wont allow Battier to leave Houston
the company gave extra money to Rox during the rumor of R.Lewis & Battier last summer :spin

[Chucho]

I basically agree with this. I think we should put the wing thing to rest until the offseason.

If we do trade for a traditional big, it ought to be for a vet with a decent basketball iq. And for someone with a defined talent, like a gnack for rebounding or shot blocking. I think Kurt Thomas and Jeff Foster make a whole lot of sense but their price is steep relative to our roster. A young guy like Channing Frye might help, but that's debatable. PJ Brown is probably too out of shape. So that leaves guys like Adonal Foyle and Joe Smith.

Foyle is not a great big by any stretch, but he can rebound and shot block. He's high character, high intelligence. And at 1.2 million we could use a trade exception or possibly Bonner's BYC number.

The wing issue is an issue simply because our wings don't do much except jack up open jumpshots and miss. Manu and Ime are the only players on the squad making shots consistently. It's an issue.

"Adonal Foyle is not great by any stretch" is a severe understatement. He's worse than Elson in every statistical category sans he blocks .3 more shots. Why would we want a slower, more useless version of Elson who costs twice more (he makes 6 mil per) simply because he has high character? Pfft...



So pick a sentence I said and exploit it lol. The way i see it is this. Trading Elson and even a pick won't get us a wing that will see minutes when it counts. So getting rid of a one of the 2 big mans that can actually jump and contest the rim to some extent for a wing that rides the bench doesn't make sense to me. Our big's production outside of Tim is highly inferrior especially defensively and off of production our front court is THIN. Oberto does nothing for us defensively except provide a ladder for an and 1 for opposing wings who penetrate. Bonner is the same. Last year Horry played his ass off defensively, which I think was more critical than Oberto making wide open lay ups and setting decent screens. To me it would be very nice to have a defensive big man to come in and help instead putting all our eggs in Horry's basket again. Just the safe way to go.

I didn't exploit anything. I merely pointed out a difference in nomenclature. And all you pointed out is exactly what I pointed out, just in different terms. You just disagree with the need for a scoring wing and I don't see Elson nor Horry contesting anything around the rim. I see the large gaps they leave open and how fast teams can blow by them for easy lay ups. Our bigs are inefficient and I do agree a defensive big is the cure as is a wing who can score with efficiency because Ime can do what Bruce does, maybe better since his legs are fresher and Finley and Barry are done. Done. And its obvious too.

[SenorSpur]

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_8109739



Looks like JR Smith's trade value is at its lowest since being with the Hornets when the Spurs almost pulled of that trade for him.

Elson for Smith and Wafer

Hmmm. Wonder if the Spurs would again be interested?

[tav1]

Here's the deal with Foyle: he's much brighter than Elson and would probably figure out the rotations yet this season. It's nearly two years on and Elson is still clueless. I think Foyle, however laughable it sounds, would be a sharp upgrade. This is an example when the numbers won't really help.

[MaNu4Tres]

I find this post hilarious