NBA: Ginobili's playing time a fine line for Spurs

[THE SIXTH MAN]

NBA: Ginobili's playing time a fine line for Spurs

Pop's hand forced concerning Manu's minutes.

Web Posted: 02/04/2008 11:32 PM CST

Jeff McDonald
Express-News Staff Writer

INDIANAPOLIS — Almost from the day he first joined the Spurs, Manu Ginobili has been persistent in one polite request of coach Gregg Popovich.

More minutes, please.

Lately, with point guard Tony Parker out and Popovich all but forced to increase Ginobili's workload, the Argentine guard has been reminded of one of life's most frequent lessons. Be careful what you wish for.

"When I play 28, 30 (minutes), I'm always upset and want to play more," Ginobili said. "When I play 40, I say, 'I never play 40, I'm tired, I need to play less.'"

The moral of the story, as Ginobili sees it?

"Players are never happy," he said with a chuckle.

Coaches seldom are either, which is why Popovich is eager to return Ginobili to a more restful role as the six-game, eastern leg of the Spurs' rodeo road trip kicks off tonight at Indiana.

Typically a reserve off-guard, Ginobili started in Parker's place at the point in each of the Spurs' past two games — a loss at Seattle and a victory at Phoenix. He played around 40 minutes in both contests, bumping his season average to more than 30 per game for the first time this year.

That number sends up all kinds of red flags for Popovich, who is perpetually wary of wearying his full-throttle guard. If Ginobili were a race car, he would have finished both those games in the red.

"His minutes might go up a bit, but we're trying not to," Popovich said. "I don't want to overplay him to the point where he runs out of gas."

With Parker expected to miss the entire trip to come, that could be easier said than done. The Spurs will have to fight the temptation to overuse Ginobili, their second-leading scorer at 19.5 points per game.

The subject of Ginobili's minutes always has been a touchy one among Spurs faithful.

Popovich is adamant that he needs to keep them in check in order to maintain Ginobili's freshness and effectiveness. Fans — especially those from Ginobili's home country of Argentina — wonder why he can't play more.

By most measures, Ginobili is the NBA's most efficient player, the only one in the league to average at least 19 points and less than 31 minutes. But that efficiency seems to wane when he takes on too many minutes for too many games in a row.

Ginobili approaches every second on the floor with a pedal-to-the-metal mentality. His battery can drain rapidly if he is overworked.

With the Spurs set to play six games over the next nine days, Popovich will attempt to massage Ginobili's minutes as best he can.

"We've got to find that fine line," Popovich said.

Ginobili has never averaged more than 30 minutes per game in any NBA season. In the past two, he has logged a tad less than 28 per game.

No doubt the Spurs would like to keep his workload in that ballpark.

Assisting Popovich in the quest to ration Ginobili's time: Damon Stoudamire.

The 12-year veteran, who signed with the Spurs on Sunday, gives the team another option at point guard. Ginobili is expected to start at point again tonight against the Pacers, but Stoudamire can help alleviate the need for him to spend too much time there as the game progresses.

A starter in 93 percent of his 833 career games, Stoudamire is unaccustomed to life as a reserve. But he says he's willing to give it a shot.

"I feel like (my role is) coming off the bench, giving the team a spark, coming in and knocking down open shots," Stoudamire said. "Trying to maintain the pace of the game, that's what I'm going to bring. Going out there and not having a fall-off."

Ginobili, keen on giving his time at point guard a rest, will welcome Stoudamire with open arms.

"Now," Ginobili said, "everything can go back to normal."

Perhaps, if all goes to plan, Ginobili can even return to his favorite pastime: Politely pestering Popovich for more playing time.

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link (http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA020508.BKN_spurs-pacers_manu.en.37ea0ad.html)

[timvp]

Popovich is adamant that he needs to keep them in check in order to maintain Ginobili's freshness and effectiveness. Fans — especially those from Ginobili's home country of Argentina — wonder why he can't play more.

By most measures, Ginobili is the NBA's most efficient player, the only one in the league to average at least 19 points and less than 31 minutes. But that efficiency seems to wane when he takes on too many minutes for too many games in a row.

Ginobili approaches every second on the floor with a pedal-to-the-metal mentality. His battery can drain rapidly if he is overworked.This is a point that many Spurs fans either don't understand or refuse to acknowledge. Ginobili is a great basketball player. His one limitation is can't log major minutes. A lot of Spurs fans try to say that Pop is holding back Ginobili but the truth is Ginobili just isn't built to play more the 28 or 29 minutes per night.

Part of what makes Ginobili such a great player is he plays hard every second he's on the court. With his style, he can't play big minutes on a consistent basis. Even in recent game where he's played big minutes, by the fourth quarter you can really see him slowed and not moving well offensively or defensively.

Pop's discipline over the years about not overplaying Ginobili has been a huge key to the last two championships. He has monitored Ginobili's minutes masterfully over the years. If Pop had been playing Ginobili 35 to 37 minutes per night over three or four seasons, not only would the Spurs likely not have any championships in that time but Ginobili's career would likely be ending sooner rather than later.

Hopefully Pop will be able to keep Ginobili's minutes down while Parker is out. I'd rather take a few losses now than to have Ginobili run out of gas in February.

[ShoogarBear]

Oh, no, Manu would be a 38 MPG Superstar carrying another team!

/CoM

[Nikos]

My question is how much better would the Spurs be if Manu could play 34-35mpg?

Is he the reason the team isn't as good as it should be on paper? He might be the best offensive player on the team so far this year even playing LESS minutes, but if he can't influence the Spur team for 4-5mpg extra like Duncan and Parker can then he simply isn't nearly as valuable as his PER or championship qualities seem to indicate.

Lets say you use PER as an example of offensive production + block/steals -- is Manu playing any better than Ray Allen for the Celtics?

Ginobili 24.8 PER @ 30mpg
Ray 16.2PER @ 38mpg

Who is the more valuable 2nd/3rd guy for their team? Given KG plays 35mpg, is Ray more valuable to the Celtics than Manu to the Spurs? Is he having a 'better' season?

Just how much would Manu's PER or effectiveness would drop off if he played 35+mpg (lets assume for a moment this stat isn't meaningless)?

I think this is an important question, and might be a huge reason why the Spurs never seem to be as good in the playoffs as they should be many times. Perhaps Manu's inability to play 35mpg+ on both ends might be a big weakness for the Spurs. Because aside from Timmy and Tony, the Spurs offense is horrible, and their defense isn't nearly as good as in the past despite not having a huge drop off in defensive talent.

Aside from Manu's 05 playoffs, could Manu be a distant third from Tony Parker even since coming into his own in 2004-05? Maybe Manu is in fact overrated to a large degree?

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

This is a point that many Spurs fans either don't understand or refuse to acknowledge. Ginobili is a great basketball player. His one limitation is can't log major minutes. A lot of Spurs fans try to say that Pop is holding back Ginobili but the truth is Ginobili just isn't built to play more the 28 or 29 minutes per night.

Part of what makes Ginobili such a great player is he plays hard every second he's on the court. With his style, he can't play big minutes on a consistent basis. Even in recent game where he's played big minutes, by the fourth quarter you can really see him slowed and not moving well offensively or defensively.

Pop's discipline over the years about not overplaying Ginobili has been a huge key to the last two championships. He has monitored Ginobili's minutes masterfully over the years. If Pop had been playing Ginobili 35 to 37 minutes per night over three or four seasons, not only would the Spurs likely not have any championships in that time but Ginobili's career would likely be ending sooner rather than later.

Hopefully Pop will be able to keep Ginobili's minutes down while Parker is out. I'd rather take a few losses now than to have Ginobili run out of gas in February.

:tu

As for you Nikos, I don't agree with your thesis at all. Manu is Manu - he plays extremely well for 30 minutes a game so you limit him to that (the coach's job is to manage the idiosyncrasies of his players) and use him as best you can. Bottom line, he wins games, and he's fantastic to watch. Clutch as hell. Why describe him as "overrated"? Manu is what he is - a freak of basketball nature!

[diego]

My question is how much better would the Spurs be if Manu could play 34-35mpg?

Is he the reason the team isn't as good as it should be on paper?

Lets say you use PER as an example of offensive production + block/steals -- is Manu playing any better than Ray Allen for the Celtics?

Ginobili 24.8 PER @ 30mpg
Ray 16.2PER @ 38mpg

Who is the more valuable 2nd/3rd guy for their team? Given KG plays 35mpg, is Ray more valuable to the Celtics than Manu to the Spurs? Is he having a 'better' season?

Just how much would Manu's PER or effectiveness would drop off if he played 35+mpg (lets assume for a moment this stat isn't meaningless)?


but manu does play +4-5 minutes in tight games. and there is generally a correlation in that increase in his production- see the games where tony's been out, where timmy's been out, or the close-out games in close series.

as far as ray allen, you've got to be kidding me. at this point ray is a shooter with nice handles but no vocation to drive whatsoever. he's extremely solid, but manu provides the spurs with a lot more than ray does the celtics. playing 8 extra minutes doesnt change the fact that manu is doing everything better except for his FT%. and manu can at least gets himself to the line! If you're going to compare manu to a celtic, compare him to pierce who at least has a more similar skill set.

would manu's effectiveness decrease if he averaged 35mpg? of course. it would also decrease if he played a ray allen, screen & spot shooter game. i'd much rather manu play "hell bent for leather" as pop likes to say, for 30 mpg, than have manu play passive, prudent basketball for 38mpg.

duncan and parker only play 34 mpg. but when the playoffs come and things get difficult they play 38. manu goes from 30 to 34. i'd say that system has worked out pretty damn well. The offense doesnt hinge on manu going 1 on 1. Our offense, at least when its working, is like the chicken and the egg- is it the big 3 hammering the paint that gives the 3 point shooters looks, or is the 3 pt shooters that give them space to operate? there is a reason half the spurs roster is 3 pt shooters.

bottomline, the defense and the 3 pt shooting is whats keeping this team down right now, not whether manu can go from 34 minutes to 38.

[Slippy]

At the moment it still the big 2 out of the 3. Just having Manu out there standing pat and feeding it to Duncan on the post makes a big diiference on spacing and the focus he receives.. It looked like Pop took advantage of that in the Suns game where Manu was used soley to feed Duncan. Manu doesn't have to play at full throttle and the team benifits. For a few extra mins untill Tone comes back i dont think it hurts . Although 40mins is too much.

[SenorSpur]

This is a point that many Spurs fans either don't understand or refuse to acknowledge. Ginobili is a great basketball player. His one limitation is can't log major minutes. A lot of Spurs fans try to say that Pop is holding back Ginobili but the truth is Ginobili just isn't built to play more the 28 or 29 minutes per night.

Part of what makes Ginobili such a great player is he plays hard every second he's on the court. With his style, he can't play big minutes on a consistent basis. Even in recent game where he's played big minutes, by the fourth quarter you can really see him slowed and not moving well offensively or defensively.

Pop's discipline over the years about not overplaying Ginobili has been a huge key to the last two championships. He has monitored Ginobili's minutes masterfully over the years. If Pop had been playing Ginobili 35 to 37 minutes per night over three or four seasons, not only would the Spurs likely not have any championships in that time but Ginobili's career would likely be ending sooner rather than later.

Hopefully Pop will be able to keep Ginobili's minutes down while Parker is out. I'd rather take a few losses now than to have Ginobili run out of gas in February.

This is a great point. A similar analogy can be found in the Dallas Cowboys running back Marion Barber. Like Ginobili, he plays his sport at a break-neck pace and his style is very aggressive. In the process, he absorbs a great deal of punishment, much like Ginobili. So much so that it doesn't lend itself toward him playing heavy minutes, as he wears down over the course of a game. THe one occasion he was given extended minutes in the playoffs, it produced diminishing returns.

[carina_gino20]

My question is how much better would the Spurs be if Manu could play 34-35mpg?

Is he the reason the team isn't as good as it should be on paper? He might be the best offensive player on the team so far this year even playing LESS minutes, but if he can't influence the Spur team for 4-5mpg extra like Duncan and Parker can then he simply isn't nearly as valuable as his PER or championship qualities seem to indicate.

Lets say you use PER as an example of offensive production + block/steals -- is Manu playing any better than Ray Allen for the Celtics?

Ginobili 24.8 PER @ 30mpg
Ray 16.2PER @ 38mpg

Who is the more valuable 2nd/3rd guy for their team? Given KG plays 35mpg, is Ray more valuable to the Celtics than Manu to the Spurs? Is he having a 'better' season?

Just how much would Manu's PER or effectiveness would drop off if he played 35+mpg (lets assume for a moment this stat isn't meaningless)?

I think this is an important question, and might be a huge reason why the Spurs never seem to be as good in the playoffs as they should be many times. Perhaps Manu's inability to play 35mpg+ on both ends might be a big weakness for the Spurs. Because aside from Timmy and Tony, the Spurs offense is horrible, and their defense isn't nearly as good as in the past despite not having a huge drop off in defensive talent.

Aside from Manu's 05 playoffs, could Manu be a distant third from Tony Parker even since coming into his own in 2004-05? Maybe Manu is in fact overrated to a large degree?

That's one way to look at it. And yet you also have Manu's intangibles, which, I don't think are still not fully captured with PER (we don't even know exactly how it is calculated). As Ruff has said, Manu has accomplished so much that it is difficult to say that he is overrated.

[SAGambler]

At the moment it still the big 2 out of the 3. Just having Manu out there standing pat and feeding it to Duncan on the post makes a big diiference on spacing and the focus he receives.. It looked like Pop took advantage of that in the Suns game where Manu was used soley to feed Duncan. Manu doesn't have to play at full throttle and the team benifits. For a few extra mins untill Tone comes back i dont think it hurts . Although 40mins is too much.

But it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. Manu is akin to the 100 meter sprinter. He doesn't make a good marathon runner, or even a good miler. Because he only knows one thing, and that is balls to the wall all the time. That is just how Manu plays. He only knows one gear. And that would be hard to change. Trying to talk Manu into "slowing it down" a little, so he could maybe play more minutes, would be like talking to a fence post. Manu doesn't know how to "slow it down", "take off for a few plays", not give it 110% the entire time he is on the floor. It is just foreign to him. And if you start trying to make a guy do things he isn't comfortable doing, you may even screw him up.

Let Manu play the way he does. And do it for 30 minutes a game. I think you get more out of him that way, than if you try to change his game to get an extra 4 or 5 minutes a game out him.

[Nikos]

I just think with the talent and chemistry the team has they should be performing better. There is no reason they should be a slightly above average offensive team while NOT being by far the best defensive unit in the league like they had in the past.

Manu not being able to play 35mpg+ in the regular season I think hurts the team in the win column. Even in the playoffs he should be able to play 37mpg+. It has to be considered a weakness when as a player you tire easy and cannot play heavy minutes.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Barry being out has affected Manu's minutes as much or moreso than Parker being out.

[Indazone]

Offseason just bring in Vspan. Problem solved. ;)

[ducks]

about time
anyone with a brain would know by now manu is effective only playing 30 minutes a night on a regular basic
he loses his magic if he plays more on a regular basic

[Duff McCartney]

I'd rather take a few losses now than to have Ginobili run out of gas in February.

It is February.

[timvp]

It is February.Exactly.

Thanks, Duff McCalendar :tu

[timvp]

My question is how much better would the Spurs be if Manu could play 34-35mpg?

Is he the reason the team isn't as good as it should be on paper? He might be the best offensive player on the team so far this year even playing LESS minutes, but if he can't influence the Spur team for 4-5mpg extra like Duncan and Parker can then he simply isn't nearly as valuable as his PER or championship qualities seem to indicate.

Lets say you use PER as an example of offensive production + block/steals -- is Manu playing any better than Ray Allen for the Celtics?

Ginobili 24.8 PER @ 30mpg
Ray 16.2PER @ 38mpg

Who is the more valuable 2nd/3rd guy for their team? Given KG plays 35mpg, is Ray more valuable to the Celtics than Manu to the Spurs? Is he having a 'better' season?

Just how much would Manu's PER or effectiveness would drop off if he played 35+mpg (lets assume for a moment this stat isn't meaningless)?

I think this is an important question, and might be a huge reason why the Spurs never seem to be as good in the playoffs as they should be many times. Perhaps Manu's inability to play 35mpg+ on both ends might be a big weakness for the Spurs. Because aside from Timmy and Tony, the Spurs offense is horrible, and their defense isn't nearly as good as in the past despite not having a huge drop off in defensive talent.

Aside from Manu's 05 playoffs, could Manu be a distant third from Tony Parker even since coming into his own in 2004-05? Maybe Manu is in fact overrated to a large degree?I've always said you can't use a per-minute stat like PER to really judge a player like Manu Ginobili. It's not fair to the rest of the team or the rest of the league.

Every player has a weakness. Manu's weakness just happens to be that he needs relatively limited playing time. PER doesn't account for Manu's weakness and instead turns his weakness into a statistical strength. PER assumes Manu can play as many minutes as anyone else in the league, which is simply not the case.

Manu has been in the top five in PER most of the season. Is he a top five player in the league in terms of helping his team win regular season games? No, because while other players play about 80% of the available minutes, Ginobili can only play about 60% of the minutes. The math just doesn't add up.

However, that said, I think your comments went to far. Manu is no doubt a great player. Outside a few Manu homers and a few people who don't know how to interpret stats such as PER, I don't think anyone in the basketball universe overrates him. If anything, he's underrated in the general basketball community.

Per minute I'd say he's a top ten player in the league. If you want to win championships, he's definitely a player you want to have on your team. Despite his lower than usual shooting numbers this season, it's pretty obvious that Manu is having his best regular season. I think he deserved a spot on the All-Star team.

I don't think it's fair to ask how good the Spurs would be if Manu could play more minutes. Players have weaknesses ... fatigue just happens to be Manu's weakness. That's like asking how good would the Spurs be if Tony Parker could shoot like Larry Bird or how good would the Spurs be if Duncan could jump as high as James White.

[diego]

I just think with the talent and chemistry the team has they should be performing better. There is no reason they should be a slightly above average offensive team while NOT being by far the best defensive unit in the league like they had in the past.


how is playing manu another 8 minutes going to make the spurs the best defensive unit in the league and an above averge offense? that certainly wasnt what made us better in those areas in the past.

talent and chemistry are one thing, execution- and health- are another. a big part of the problem right now IMO is that horry, bonner, and elson are not performing near their ability (this especially bad in the case of elson, who has little ability to begin with!)

[Slippy]

But it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. Manu is akin to the 100 meter sprinter. He doesn't make a good marathon runner, or even a good miler. Because he only knows one thing, and that is balls to the wall all the time. That is just how Manu plays. He only knows one gear. And that would be hard to change. Trying to talk Manu into "slowing it down" a little, so he could maybe play more minutes, would be like talking to a fence post. Manu doesn't know how to "slow it down", "take off for a few plays", not give it 110% the entire time he is on the floor. It is just foreign to him. And if you start trying to make a guy do things he isn't comfortable doing, you may even screw him up.

Let Manu play the way he does. And do it for 30 minutes a game. I think you get more out of him that way, than if you try to change his game to get an extra 4 or 5 minutes a game out him.

True that it might not be best for Manu but it is very effective in getting Tim some freedom and making up for some-one like Vaughn. For a few extra mins, having him either stand pat or roll to the basket after feeding Tim just like Tony does benifits the team as a whole. If the Spurs can squeeze some extra mins out of him by doing just that.. then im all for it until the others get back.

Pop's doing it out necessity not because he want's to . As Ed pointed out, not having Barry there make's it even harder to limit Manu's mins. Hopefully with Stoudamire on board , things might change.

[greens]

By the way, here is the audio to Manu's interview...he talks about his minutes and playing time near the end of the audio:

http://radio.woai.com/cc-common/mediaplayer/player.html?redir=yes&mps=WOAIDefault.php&mid=http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/23633/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/23633/1229/richmedia/MANU_PRACTICE_2-3.mp3?CCOMRRMID=10875534&CPROG=RICHMEDIA&MARKET=SANANTONIO-TX&NG_FORMAT=newstalk&NG_ID=woai1200am&OR_NEWSFORMAT=&OWNER=1229&SERVER_NAME=radio.woai.com&SITE_ID=1229&STATION_ID=WOAI-AM&TRACK=Manu_practice_2-3



If you listen to it, I think his other point is that he is now so used to playing 29-30 minutes per game, that it's unusual for him to play like 40 minutes, hence, he gets tired...

I just think that at this point, it's not that he can't exactly play for longer, it's that he has been playing about 27/28 minutes the past 6 years basically, that's he's gotten so used to it...hence, if you add up the time, it's becomes foreign to him at this point.

For instance, if suddenly Pop starts to play Manu for like 36 minutes per each game, at first he's going to be exhausted/not accostumed to it. But if he does that for a whole year, I think it's in his character to get used to it...to playing for that much extra time. Good players adjust to the situation...always.

But I think the main thing remains is that there is really no need to change anything...considering it has worked for the Spurs for the past few years. Pop knows how to manage Manu's time pretty well...So I guess stick to the usual.

[Nikos]

Per minute I'd say he's a top ten player in the league. If you want to win championships, he's definitely a player you want to have on your team. Despite his lower than usual shooting numbers this season, it's pretty obvious that Manu is having his best regular season. I think he deserved a spot on the All-Star team.

This is a comment that I think can apply to many other above average swingmen players. I don't think Manu is the only non all star that could step in and help the team stay elite in the regular season and even contribute to a championship. The beauty is Manu DID actually help and step up big, especially in 2005. But can you honestly say that several other guards couldn't have possibly replaced Manu in 2007 without the Spurs missing out on the title?

Manu hasn't been that great in the playoffs the past two seasons, and didn't exactly step up big in Game 4 (Pre Amare suspension). I guess its just my personal expectations -- but Manu wasn't even close to his 2005 playoff form. His PER was astronomically higher than Tony's (despite both being of similar value in the regular season) and I actually think he was more effective on offense than Duncan (even with all the attention Duncan draws from the defense).

Its obvious I am a huge Manu fan, but I think I got spoiled by his 2005 playoff form and expected too much out of him. Since that playoff he has been excellent in the regular season -- but he hasn't nearly matched that playoff success he did in the 05 playoffs.







I don't think it's fair to ask how good the Spurs would be if Manu could play more minutes. Players have weaknesses ... fatigue just happens to be Manu's weakness. That's like asking how good would the Spurs be if Tony Parker could shoot like Larry Bird or how good would the Spurs be if Duncan could jump as high as James White.


Actually this statement makes me think less of Manu for some reason. Manu not being able to play 35+ in the playoffs is a weakness. Maybe a bigger weakness than first anticipated. Maybe his intangibles are overrated?

Anyhow just as a rough guess, lets assume PER is an excellent indicator of statistical production -- what would Manu's be if he played 35mpg for a season and managed to get real lucky and stay healthy? Maybe 18-20 range?

[Nikos]

how is playing manu another 8 minutes going to make the spurs the best defensive unit in the league and an above averge offense? that certainly wasnt what made us better in those areas in the past.

talent and chemistry are one thing, execution- and health- are another. a big part of the problem right now IMO is that horry, bonner, and elson are not performing near their ability (this especially bad in the case of elson, who has little ability to begin with!)

8 more minutes of excellent offensive execution makes their offense better and even gives the team more energy to focus on defense. Especially since Manu might be the most valuable overall defensive swingman on the team besides Bruce. (Even though Finley might be a better man defender for post players).

Little things like that can make big differences.

[diego]

look at it this way: in the past 4 or 5 seasons the spurs were top 3 nba defense right? and in those seasons, how many minutes did manu play? the issue isnt manu's minutes, its other little things, like the play of the role players.

and yes, you are expecting too much out of him. duncan is considered by many to be the best player on the planet, without having mindboggling stats, or playing 35mpg. intangibles are important.

and manu has led the spurs in +/- in the 05 and 07 playoffs (IIRC!), and in 06 he came alive from injury to make the game 7 debacle possible (remember we were 20 pts down that game). he may not have been 05 level good, but its not like he played like shit the past two seasons either.

[TMTTRIO]

Ok so trade him. I bet there would be a bunch of teams on our door trying to snatch him up. I think any team would still love to have him on their roster. I'm not saying he's a franchise player but Manu just seems to find ways to win even if he doesn't play many minutes. What's amazing is they said he's the only player to average 19 points in less than 30 minutes. That's quite amazing since some players don't average that with a lot more minutes in a game. Also Manu seems to know when to take over and is usually huge in the 4th quarter when it counts not only with scoring but making huge steals, rebounds, and making huge free throws.