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View Full Version : Good article fron Espn (yes, really, I pinched myself to death) on the Shaq trade



lefty
02-06-2008, 07:12 PM
So, I checked over and over again, and it seems it hasn't been posted yet.

Sorry if it's the case.

So long, Suns, it's been fun

The disappointment isn't because Phoenix failed to win a championship with small ball. It's because the Suns stopped trying.

Trading Shawn Marion and Marcus Banks for Shaquille O'Neal might be a full-scale (albeit bizarre) attempt to grab a ring, but it also is an admission of failure for their way of basketball. They just sided with the skeptics and said, "You're right, we can't run our way to the Finals."

I'd rather see them go out like Tom Hanks in "Saving Private Ryan," pulling out his pistol and firing away at the German tank in a last desperate effort to save the bridge. Or show some of that same defiance as Denzel Washington in "American Gangster," making one last trip to Asia to import more heroin even though everybody's telling him the game is over.

Instead the Suns conformed.

I had a teacher who used to say revolution is impossible in a capitalistic society because any countercultural idea will quickly get bought up and mass-marketed and next thing you know Che Guevara t-shirts are going for $8.99.

The same goes for the NBA. They have widened the lane, brought in the 3-point shot, made it illegal to hand-check speedy guards … and it's still as much a big man's game as it was in the days of George Mikan.

The object is to get the best shot possible, and tall men dunking will always be the best option. If you wanted to win, that was the way to go. Michael Jordan ruled the 1990s, but the further we get away from that time the more of an aberration it seems and the more we can put to rest any comparisons to him. He won six rings with Bill Cartwright and Luc Longley at center. There's no other like him.

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Doug Pensinger/Getty Images

In the half-court, Amare Stoudemire and Steve Nash will compete with Shaq for touches.
For all others, the way to a championship is through the low post. Shaq and Tim Duncan have won eight of the past nine championships. Even when Magic and Bird were racking up rings they still had Hall of Fame centers in the paint.

The inside game is not as fun, it's not as entertaining, but it's effective. In football, you win with defense and running; in baseball, you win with pitching. In life, you'd better eat your vegetables.

Kobe Bryant and the Lakers tried to fight these essential truths, and it ended about as happily as Othello. When Shaq was in L.A., the Lakers were better when the ball went through O'Neal, even if they were more boring. Besides, O'Neal provided plenty of entertainment before the cameras in the locker room. (He hasn't lost that touch, as he showed in a tribute to his alma mater before the BCS championship game.)

It might have been hard to admit for the franchise that brought us Showtime, but no team was ever going to get another ultimate point guard like Magic Johnson surrounded by finishers such as James Worthy, Byron Scott and Michael Cooper. But the circus couldn't have gone on without Kareem Abdul-Jabbar keeping the tent up. When things slowed down, they could always go inside to the greatest scorer in the history of the game.

Other teams (most notably Doug Moe's Denver Nuggets) tried to run without a true big man, but the Suns were our first viable alternative. Nutritious cotton candy. Maybe, just maybe, they could outrun everybody to the ring. Even this season, with some nagging injuries and lingering chemistry issues, they still had the best record in the Western Conference before they pulled the trigger on the trade.

Perhaps it was the double-whammy of losing a home game to the depleted Spurs followed by the Lakers' acquisition of Pau Gasol the next day that spooked Suns GM Steve Kerr into action. The Suns got desperate. One involved party member called it "a last-ditch play."


All you need to know about this deal is that it doesn't fit the Headline Rule. That in itself should raise more red flags than a NASCAR race at Martinsville.

The Headline Rule dictates that the NBA team that gets the player in the headline automatically wins the trade. It was "Lakers Get Gasol," not "Kwame Traded to Grizzlies." Clear advantage: Lakers.

In this case, the news was Shaq got traded. But the people who think the Suns are better off for this move are in the minority. The more common reaction was: What were they thinking?

O'Neal doesn't fit the Suns' style or their payroll plans.

Some argue that Shaq can play the role of ex-Sun Kurt Thomas: rebounding and guarding the likes of Tim Duncan. If that's the case then why didn't they just keep Kurt Thomas at $8 million a year instead of taking on Shaq's contract at $20 million per through 2010?

And that way it wouldn't have cost them Marion. As much as anyone, Marion enabled the Suns to be the Suns. He could defend a variety of positions, he could start and finish fast breaks and he could hit open three-pointers. Everything they needed and wanted to do, he could provide. While Steve Nash got the acclaim and Amare Stoudemire got the dunks, Marion got the critical offensive rebounds.

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Barry Gossage/NBAE via Getty Images

Along with Nash's vision, Marion's all-around prowess provided the Suns their unique identity.
No, Marion can't guard Duncan. But at the rate Shaq has picked up fouls this season, he might last only 20 minutes against the Quiet Storm. That's assuming O'Neal can get on the court. He played in only four games last month. He'll turn 36 next month.

Some speculate the trade will motivate and rejuvenate him the way his exile from L.A. did in 2004. Surely the chance to squash Kobe's championship dreams should be good for a few extra reps in the weight room. But maybe his body can't keep up with his ego anymore. In this case the fall could goeth before pride.

But even if he's slower, even if he can't jump as high, he's still 7-foot-1. You don't need to scheme or create a special offense for 7-foot-1.

Even Don Nelson, the ultimate oddball, took a nod toward tradition when he brought back Chris Webber. Like Shaq with the Suns, Webber's slower game doesn't appear to fit with the Warriors' style. But perhaps Golden State decided it need more passes to and from the post than threes being launched from the hash mark.

If the Suns really wanted to take things to the extreme they would have signed Earl Boykins and set him loose in the backcourt with Leandro Barbosa. Instead they've gone the other way, toward the norm, toward the pack.

La revolución está muerta.

Spurminator
02-06-2008, 07:15 PM
I think the eulogies to the Suns up-tempo basketball are very premature. It's not like the Suns run a 5-man fast break.

Did they run with Kurt Thomas on the floor?

WalterBenitez
02-06-2008, 07:18 PM
WTF is going on, everyone is coming to the West? is it a gold fever or what?

mojorizen7
02-06-2008, 07:31 PM
The SUNS had no choice but to make a move. High risk. High reward to be sure.
Small ball/run & gun/D'Antonis 3 ring circus regular season offense wasn't going to win anything.
SPURS fan's know this as well as anyone.

Xylus
02-06-2008, 07:41 PM
It was a good article, but anyone who thinks the Suns' run-and-gun style is dead is a damned fool. Last I checked, this team is still coached by Mike D'Antoni and still spearheaded by Steve Nash. Shaq will have to adjust.

Herschel Walker
02-06-2008, 07:45 PM
thhis is Kerr's way of telling D'Antoni to pack his bags.

adidas11
02-06-2008, 07:48 PM
If anything, having Shaq on your team will allow the Suns to run even MORE. The biggest key to being a running team is you must dominate the paint (on the defensive end) and get rebounds. With Shaq and Amare on the court, they can use those two to get key rebounds and start their fast break (with Amare joining the break)

And when the game slows down (which it will) in the playoffs, then the Suns can opt to go to Shaq more often in the half-court on offense. Even with his fading athletic ability, Shaq is still an excellent passer in the half court.

Cry Havoc
02-06-2008, 07:49 PM
The NBA isn't ruled by big men.

It's ruled by big men surrounded by teams who can play defense. Honestly, how many teams SUCK because they play with only big men who have no skill?

Jordan won so many rings because he was the GoaT, but also because they had players around him who could PLAY DEFENSE.

If the Pistons had a dominant scorer, they would merit comparisons to those Bulls teams of the 90s.

The Spurs are great because they have players that can play both ways on every single play of the game over a 7 game stretch. Parker, Manu, Bowen, Duncan, Fabs -- every single one of those guys can stop their man when the need is dire.

lefty
02-06-2008, 07:53 PM
Shaq will have to adjust.

There lies the problem

lefty
02-06-2008, 07:55 PM
Another problem is the Suns perimeter D.

If talented G/F's go to the rim, Shaq will be late and be forced to make fouls because of it

Russ
02-06-2008, 08:08 PM
It was a good article, but anyone who thinks the Suns' run-and-gun style is dead is a damned fool. Last I checked, this team is still coached by Mike D'Antoni and still spearheaded by Steve Nash. Shaq will have to adjust.
That's right. What people forget is that a fast break starts with a rebound and outlet pass. (No running by the rebounder required.)

Shaq can do that.

exstatic
02-06-2008, 08:17 PM
I think the eulogies to the Suns up-tempo basketball are very premature. It's not like the Suns run a 5-man fast break.

Did they run with Kurt Thomas on the floor?

Nash - reluctant 3 point shooter
Barbosa/Bell - 3 point shooters
Marion - 3 point shooter/finisher
KT - Jump shooter
Amare - finisher

Nash -reluctant 3 point shooter
Barbosa/Bell - 3 point shooters
Hill - 2 point jumpshooter/finisher
Amare - finisher
Shaq - won't make it past half court

Not even close. You used to have to defend three or maybe four 3 point shooters on the break. Now it's 2, unless Nash pulls up, which he almost never does.

m33p0
02-06-2008, 08:52 PM
the Quiet Storm
like that nick for timmy.

BonnerDynasty
02-06-2008, 09:03 PM
Their run'n'gun style is only dead when they play the Spurs :lmao

ploto
02-06-2008, 10:12 PM
That's right. What people forget is that a fast break starts with a rebound and outlet pass. (No running by the rebounder required.)

Shaq can do that.
Amen.

lefty
02-06-2008, 10:24 PM
That's right. What people forget is that a fast break starts with a rebound and outlet pass. (No running by the rebounder required.)

Shaq can do that.

Shaq can reboud.

But his outlet passes are...ahem

z0sa
02-06-2008, 10:27 PM
this trade could go both ways --

but will shaq stay healthy? doubt it.

Avitus1
02-06-2008, 10:36 PM
If they think 2007s playoffs sucked...

Capt Bringdown
02-06-2008, 10:48 PM
Or show some of that same defiance as Denzel Washington in "American Gangster," making one last trip to Asia to import more heroin even though everybody's telling him the game is over.


This is just dumb, silly, bad writing. Comparing a NBA team's strategy with a depiction of a heroin dealer...WTF?

ambchang
02-06-2008, 10:53 PM
That's right. What people forget is that a fast break starts with a rebound and outlet pass. (No running by the rebounder required.)

Shaq can do that.

Problem is, Shaq is averaging 6.1 DRB/36 minutes this year, Marion is at 7.9.
Another thing is, long rebounds get better fast breaks, Shaq doesn't get long rebounds.

lrrr
02-06-2008, 11:19 PM
When Amare played C, the Suns had 5 people who would beat you up the court. now it will only be 4. they will still run, but their fast break became at least 20% less potent.

Whenever Kurt Thomas was on the floor, it slowed down their offense. It was the price they paid for having someone who could remotely guard TD. Imagine how much slower it will be with Shaq.

Spuradicator
02-06-2008, 11:37 PM
The problem for the suns remains the same, with our without Shaq.

The Spurs.

lefty
02-06-2008, 11:39 PM
It was a good article, but anyone who thinks the Suns' run-and-gun style is dead is a damned fool. Last I checked, this team is still coached by Mike D'Antoni and still spearheaded by Steve Nash. Shaq will have to adjust.

You just identified the 2 major problems

Xylus
02-07-2008, 12:57 AM
I agree with you that D'Antoni is a major problem.

batboy
02-07-2008, 01:56 AM
I like Quiet Storm.

It's no Stone Buddha, but it's a hell of a lot better than Big Fundamental.

DazedAndConfused
02-07-2008, 02:49 AM
The Suns needed a big-man like Andres Biedrens who would not slow down their running game. Instead they got the furthest thing from that.

Mister Sinister
02-07-2008, 03:57 AM
I like Quiet Storm.

It's no Stone Buddha, but it's a hell of a lot better than Big Fundamental.
I'd suggest Black Bolt, but I'm afraid the comic book reference would be lost on too many people.

ATRAIN
02-07-2008, 09:20 AM
I think the eulogies to the Suns up-tempo basketball are very premature. It's not like the Suns run a 5-man fast break.

Did they run with Kurt Thomas on the floor?


This was on the article under the picture as well and as far as I remember from the handful of games I have seen it was usually the case.

"While Steve Nash did the dishing, it was usually Shawn Marion out front on the Phoenix fast break"

LakeShow
02-07-2008, 12:58 PM
It should be a Vbookie on how long it will be before Shaq says that, "He doesn't get the ball enough?"

Things to watch,

I can see this getting worse than Marions whining. If the Suns are winning with Shaq starting the break, everything may be ok BUT the minute they lose some games, I can see Shaq holding the ball and slowing it up so he can get down court. He's not going to like those quick shots if he's working hard on Defense.

How long before Shaq gets the coach fired? I think this is inevitable. The suns coach is not the coach for Shaq. He wont like him.

I wanted Shaq to retire because he was a shell of hisself. I hated to see him embarrass hisself. He was looking quite pathetic most of the season. Now? Let him play out his contract in Phoenix, no need to retire, get the money Shaq! :fro

dbreiden83080
02-07-2008, 02:07 PM
A part of me feels Shaq is almost underserving of this one last shot at a ring. I will never deny his all time great status but this is a guy that has showed no loyalty whatsoever to any team he has ever played for. Orlando was not Hollywood enough for him so as soon as he could he fled to the glamour of LA and the Lakers. He wins his rings in LA and is part of a huge run and then he decides he hates Kobe and wants insane money to stay in LA when he is on the decline of his career. Gets shipped to Miami, plays well wins another ring but now that things have all gone downhill he whines and complains about management and makes it easy for the HEAT to trade him. He has bounced around so much, who the hell is ever retiring his jersey to the rafters?? Certainly not Bus and the Lakers with that fractured relationship. It is not a secret that he is a tough guy to coach, as you had better be a coach with rings if you want him to pay attention to you. I just don't like the guy and find him underserving of this oppurtunity.

Strike
02-07-2008, 02:24 PM
The SUNS had no choice but to make a move. High risk. High reward to be sure.
Small ball/run & gun/D'Antonis 3 ring circus regular season offense wasn't going to win anything.
SPURS fan's know this as well as anyone.

I get the high risk part. But where's the high reward?

Maybe I'm blind but I just don't see it. This isn't the Shaq that carried the Lakers to a 3-peat. This isn't even the Shaq that gravy trained Dwayne Wade (and the refs) in '06! He's older, slower, less durable, and just as arrogant.

If he can stay healthy and actually WORK, then yes I can see the reward. But the risk in this case far outweighs it.

remingtonbo2001
02-07-2008, 02:29 PM
If anything, having Shaq on your team will allow the Suns to run even MORE. The biggest key to being a running team is you must dominate the paint (on the defensive end) and get rebounds. With Shaq and Amare on the court, they can use those two to get key rebounds and start their fast break (with Amare joining the break)

And when the game slows down (which it will) in the playoffs, then the Suns can opt to go to Shaq more often in the half-court on offense. Even with his fading athletic ability, Shaq is still an excellent passer in the half court.

Good point. I'm really not sure how this trade will work out. The obvious question is Shaq's health. If he's healthy I can't imagine him not being productive in some manner. I'm curious exactly how D'Antoni will use him. Where will his spot in the rotation be? How many minutes a night?

mardigan
02-07-2008, 02:33 PM
If anything, having Shaq on your team will allow the Suns to run even MORE. The biggest key to being a running team is you must dominate the paint (on the defensive end) and get rebounds. With Shaq and Amare on the court, they can use those two to get key rebounds and start their fast break (with Amare joining the break)

And when the game slows down (which it will) in the playoffs, then the Suns can opt to go to Shaq more often in the half-court on offense. Even with his fading athletic ability, Shaq is still an excellent passer in the half court.
Great post

DazedAndConfused
02-07-2008, 02:40 PM
If Shaq is healthy.

How many people here honestly think Shaq will be able to keep up in PHX's system for the entire playoffs?

ApolloCreed
02-07-2008, 03:57 PM
If Shaq is healthy.

How many people here honestly think Shaq will be able to keep up in PHX's system for the entire playoffs?

I believe. This is his whole life here. He's gotta want it more!

Eye of the tiger!

dbreiden83080
02-07-2008, 04:25 PM
I believe. This is his whole life here. He's gotta want it more!

Eye of the tiger!

Giving us a little Rocky 3 and 4 i see. :p: