Thank You Steve Kerr, BFF

[ManuTastic]

Just wanted to start an official "Thank You" thread for Steve Kerr, our new BFF. He just removed PHX from the list of playoff problems for all of us in the West. Now and for the next few years, since Snaq's giant contract will cripple the franchise going forward.

Yeah yeah, I know, Marion was unhappy, but THIS is the best they could do?

A toast! :drunk

[johngateswhiteley]

i don't think the trade is that big a deal. frankly, i am surprised at how many bball fans think this removes or hurts the suns chances of winning a title. i just don't see it that way...i think it improves it slightly.

1) its not like their running offense was ever going to beat the Spurs
2) marion was almost always shut down when the suns faced the Spurs in the playoffs

...its unlikely this team is worse off with shaq, keep dreaming people. that being said, the Spurs are still better, imo.

[ManuTastic]

How does Shaq improve their chances, even slightly?

[Jimcs50]

Phoenox was never a problem for the Spurs before the trade, the Spurs owned the Suns 75% of the time. Phoenix made this trade so they can be a problem for the Spurs. This trade was made for only one reason, and that is to have a better chance to beat the Spurs....period.

[ManuTastic]

This trade was made for only one reason, and that is to have a better chance to beat the Spurs....period.

Theoretically, yes. Maybe 3-4 years ago it would have done that. But now? Shaq is old, slow, injury-prone, and a liability on defense because now he's gone from unwilling to defend the pick and roll to completely physically unable to do so.

I repeat, a toast to Steve Kerr!

[JamStone]

It doesn't put them over the top, but it wasn't a horrible trade for the Suns either. And, Shaq's contract won't cripple the the Suns going forward. It's two more years and they have everyone else pretty much locked up, including Diaw and Barbosa. With Nash 34, their window is about those two years remaining on Shaq's contract. Maybe it doesn't get them past the Spurs, maybe not even the Lakers. But, neither was keeping Marion. At least now, they can do a better job of keeping Amare out of serious foul trouble and defend guys like Duncan, Boozer, and now Bynum one on one in the post. Shaq can't stop them, but guarantee he'll do a better job than what Marion would do against those guys.

[hater]

yeah, Marion never hurt the spurs so Suns missing him won't really change the rivalry. Having Shaq might hurt it a little but not significantly but it could also help suns minimally again.

how it could help? it's a big body the Suns can throw in the middle whenever they want too. and this big body does have plenty playoff experience. Shaq might give the Suns some nuts as well.

so it's not a trade that took Suns out of contention. come on :rolleyes

[spurscenter]

shaq with a team that has confidence like the suns will make him a better player ala Gasol

[41times]

Here here, a toast to Steve Kerr.

I don't think the trade effected the Spurs one way or another. Ya'll have the Suns number no matter what. But it dang sure helped the Mavs!

The only guy that could slow down Dirk was Marion and now he is gone!
And they replaced him with an Old, out of shape, poor defender, poor free throw shooting Shaq! Ha!

Can you imagine Shaq playing in last night's Phx vs. N.O. game? where Phx's top 6 guys played 40 minutes or more? Shaq would have been pronounced dead at the end of that game!

Thanks again S.K.

[m33p0]

yeah, Marion never hurt the spurs so Suns missing him won't really change the rivalry. Having Shaq might hurt it a little but not significantly but it could also help suns minimally again.

how it could help? it's a big body the Suns can throw in the middle whenever they want too. and this big body does have plenty playoff experience. Shaq might give the Suns some nuts as well.

so it's not a trade that took Suns out of contention. come on :rolleyes
remains to be seen. like how will the entry of o'neal affect the overall performance of a fastbreaking team. do they get faster because of a better rebounder in o'neal or they get slower because of him? there's chemistry issues as well especially with stat wanting more touches. how's that gonna go NOW with shaq?

one positive note spurs can take comfort in is that the suns are out of the free agency market for a few years unless they break up the team. (i think)

[m33p0]

err... there seem to be a total lack of suns fans to argue for this trade.

[DallasFan]

What I like about this trade (and what Suns fans should worry about) is the style adjustment this team will have to make. They are a run-and-gun type of team, and I can't possibly see that with Shaq out there. They won't be patient enough with him in there and he can't get from one end to the other as they are accustomed to doing.

They will basically have to change the way they play at mid-season and hope it gels by playoff time. I don't see it...but who knows.

[ancestron]

worst trade ever.
Anyone else see Shaq in the lux box at the Phoenix game last night, chowin down on some chicken wings or something.

[Bruno]

The idea of Marion doing nothing against Spurs is just wrong.

During last playoffs, Marion has averaged 16 ppg with a 53% FG%, 10.5 rpg and 2.3 bpg against Spurs. He also played quite good defense against Parker.

Losing Marion will definitely hurt Suns what ever is their opponent.

[JamStone]

What I like about this trade (and what Suns fans should worry about) is the style adjustment this team will have to make. They are a run-and-gun type of team, and I can't possibly see that with Shaq out there. They won't be patient enough with him in there and he can't get from one end to the other as they are accustomed to doing.

They will basically have to change the way they play at mid-season and hope it gels by playoff time. I don't see it...but who knows.


See late 1980s LA Lakers with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar playing on a "Showtime" fast break team.

[m33p0]

See late 1980s LA Lakers with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar playing on a "Showtime" fast break team.
problem: shaq is no jabbar. by a mile, maybe 2 miles, at this point of their respective careers.

[lefty]

his largeness

They'll have to add 2 seats to the Suns bench

[JamStone]

problem: shaq is no jabbar. by a mile, maybe 2 miles, at this point of their respective careers.


Well try comparing him to an older Kareem then, when Kareem was 38-39. You must not recall the Showtime Lakers last two championship seasons then. See 1986-87 Lakers and 1987-88 Lakers.

[hater]

remains to be seen. like how will the entry of o'neal affect the overall performance of a fastbreaking team. do they get faster because of a better rebounder in o'neal or they get slower because of him? there's chemistry issues as well especially with stat wanting more touches. how's that gonna go NOW with shaq?

one positive note spurs can take comfort in is that the suns are out of the free agency market for a few years unless they break up the team. (i think)

they are obviously going to get way slower when Shaq is on the floor. They will obviously play or try to play halfcourt when shaq is in and they will have shaq in the paint on defense. Again. you don't need 5 guys to run the fast break, so that won't be affected.

when shaq is sitting they can play as the old suns. so they gained the ability to play 2 different ways. again, I doubt that will ba a huge advantage for them anyway. but it does not hurt.

and they will definetely miss marion.

[sribb43]

thank you steve kerr for getting rid of your best defensive player and the only guy on the suns that had any chance of containing Dirk in the playoffs

[BonnerDynasty]

Jinx Thread.

Thanks A-hole.

:lol:

[ManuTastic]

No probs!

[ManuTastic]

It doesn't put them over the top, but it wasn't a horrible trade for the Suns either. And, Shaq's contract won't cripple the the Suns going forward. It's two more years and they have everyone else pretty much locked up, including Diaw and Barbosa. With Nash 34, their window is about those two years remaining on Shaq's contract. Maybe it doesn't get them past the Spurs, maybe not even the Lakers. But, neither was keeping Marion. At least now, they can do a better job of keeping Amare out of serious foul trouble and defend guys like Duncan, Boozer, and now Bynum one on one in the post. Shaq can't stop them, but guarantee he'll do a better job than what Marion would do against those guys.

Shaq can't guard Tim at all. Never could.

[JamStone]

Who said Shaq could guard Tim? I said Shaq can't stop him. But, guaranteed he'll do a better job guarding Shaq than Shawn Marion if Amare is in foul trouble and doesn't want to foul out.

[CarefreeAZ]

How does Shaq improve their chances, even slightly?

It's no secret that we have been getting killed on the offensive rebounding/second chance points which is limiting the suns from running the fast break this year anyway.

Steve Kerr on the radio this morning: looking at all the playoff contenders in the west, Utah with Boozer, Lakers with Bynum, Possibly Houston with Yao and even Dallas with Dampier, San Antonio with Duncan he could not see the Suns making it through these teams in a sustained playoff run without having to use double team defense most of the time.

[CarefreeAZ]

they are obviously going to get way slower when Shaq is on the floor. They will obviously play or try to play halfcourt when shaq is in and they will have shaq in the paint on defense. Again. you don't need 5 guys to run the fast break, so that won't be affected.

when shaq is sitting they can play as the old suns. so they gained the ability to play 2 different ways. again, I doubt that will ba a huge advantage for them anyway. but it does not hurt.

and they will definetely miss marion.

Totally disagree. You don't have to have 5 guys running the break, they don't even do that now. Alot of times Marion, Barbosa, Diaw, Hill usually had to stay back to help with the rebounding since we give up so many second chance opportunities.

[RonMexico]

Just wanted to start an official "Thank You" thread for Steve Kerr, our new BFF. He just removed PHX from the list of playoff problems for all of us in the West. Now and for the next few years, since Snaq's giant contract will cripple the franchise going forward.

Yeah yeah, I know, Marion was unhappy, but THIS is the best they could do?

A toast! :drunk

Yeah, now Marion can score 6 points per game in a series against the Spurs while sitting at home on his couch in Miami.

[2centsworth]

this posses a problem for the spurs down low. However, Steve Nash will allow TP to go for 30 a game so the spurs should be ok.

[Holt's Cat]

You guys are getting a tad bit cocky. We can kid ourselves but the Suns with Kurt Thomas were in a very good position to knock the Spurs off in last year's playoffs before Stoudemire's stupidity.

[urunobili]

so it's not a trade that took Suns out of contention. come on :rolleyes
:tu

[CarefreeAZ]

The Suns still need a back up point guard too.. Barbasa aint cutting it!

DJ Strawberry has been mixing in the rotation over the past couple months so that Barbosa can play the 2 guard position. There are alot of times where the line-up consist of Nash and Barbosa at guards which works pretty good.

[Holt's Cat]

Every team can knock off another team in the playoffs. We would have lost the 2005 finals if it wasn't for Horry's 3 pointer in game 5.

We were 1 overtime away to going finals in 2006!

If Finley didn't get hot against Denver we could have lost the Denver series

If Fisher didn't make that shot we would probably beaten the Lakers in 2004

If Elliot didn't make that Miracle 3 pointer against Portland we would probably lost the Blazers in 1999

So..shit happens it's part of the game!


?

So we can always count on Stoudemire getting suspended? Not the same.

[O-Factor]

Well try comparing him to an older Kareem then, when Kareem was 38-39. You must not recall the Showtime Lakers last two championship seasons then. See 1986-87 Lakers and 1987-88 Lakers.

Shaq was too lazy to come up with a signature shot in his younger years so he has nothing to help him now--Kareem had the skyhook way into his 40s. No lift means no dunking. The dude can't even make a decent lay-up, it's pathetic. I think the Phoenix brass is hoping that Shaq was simply "dogging it" in Miami; that maybe there is some of the Diesel left that he chose not to show. That's a big gamble. For their sake I hope that they're right. Otherwise they let go of a great player for NOTHING.

[O-Factor]

Shaq can't guard Tim at all. Never could.

He's not going to slow duncan Down? Duncans gonna go past shaq like crap through a goose!

[CarefreeAZ]

Well of course it works well because you have Nash out there with Barbosa. Nash can make anyone better the problem is when goes to the bench and Barbosa is suppose to run the offense.

That is why I stated they are using DJ Strawberry. Barbosa can be a great offensive firepower off the bench but he sometimes becomes a black hole. Playing the shooting guard position is a better fit. They tried Marcus Banks but it never seemed to click

[mardigan]

Totally disagree. You don't have to have 5 guys running the break, they don't even do that now. Alot of times Marion, Barbosa, Diaw, Hill usually had to stay back to help with the rebounding since we give up so many second chance opportunities.
Exactly, Shaq just needs to make the oultet pass, which he's great at, and off they go. They will still run a bunch, but now, when they play a team like the SPurs, they can slow it down as well.
And like the other poster said, if this team with Kurt Thomas gave us trouble, Shaq def will.
Marion is so overated here I cant believe it.

[ManuTastic]

Duncan's always been too quick for Shaq, and that's doubly true now. Like crap through a goose is about right.

And all those who think Shaq will be happy rebounding and starting the break, remember how the 'big dog' has to be 'fed' to be happy? Shaq has never been happy just doing the low post dirty work and letting other guys take the shots. He'd probably still be in LA if he was that kind of player.

[CarefreeAZ]

Duncan's always been too quick for Shaq, and that's doubly true now. Like crap through a goose is about right.

And all those who think Shaq will be happy rebounding and starting the break, remember how the 'big dog' has to be 'fed' to be happy? Shaq has never been happy just doing the low post dirty work and letting other guys take the shots. He'd probably still be in LA if he was that kind of player.

Nash isn't selfish like Kobe - he always has that pass/assist first mentality.

[O-Factor]

How do you rebound now with bad knees, hips, oh and please dont forget that sore BIG TOE!!!!
Sorry Suns fans...you're not getting the shaq you hope for. He's done.

[Holt's Cat]

Spurs fans are projecting too much of their wishes on this trade. Shaq can commit himself to doing what it takes to winning a championship and letting someone else get the glory (ie Miami). If Shaq wins a title with the Suns that will have been 3 different teams he's accomplished that on as well as 4 different teams he helped take to the NBA Finals. His legacy is already pretty stout but going back to the Finals with yet another team this year would be ridiculous. Don't think he isn't aware of that. Plus going through the West and knocking off the Lakers who took Kobe over him as well as the Champion Spurs is no small motivation.

[Strike]

They'll have to add 2 seats to the Suns bench

:lmao

[BillsCarnage]

Theoretically, yes. Maybe 3-4 years ago it would have done that. But now? Shaq is old, slow, injury-prone, and a liability on defense because now he's gone from unwilling to defend the pick and roll to completely physically unable to do so.

I repeat, a toast to Steve Kerr!

You really get more idiotic with each post. While i'm still out on this trade, do you think a franchise would invest almost $50mil into a player if they didn't think there was something left??? This is why you're a fan and Kerr is the GM. He has the medical staff (one of the best in the NBA) and other experts to determine if Shaq can work.

Yes, this is a huge gamble, but the potential rewards are incredibly high. As Kerr said, he'll either look like a genius or moron in a year or two.

[ATXSPUR]

I am shocked that there are not more suns fans on here defending this trade. THey usually litter every other thread.

[JamStone]

Shaq was too lazy to come up with a signature shot in his younger years so he has nothing to help him now--Kareem had the skyhook way into his 40s. No lift means no dunking. The dude can't even make a decent lay-up, it's pathetic. I think the Phoenix brass is hoping that Shaq was simply "dogging it" in Miami; that maybe there is some of the Diesel left that he chose not to show. That's a big gamble. For their sake I hope that they're right. Otherwise they let go of a great player for NOTHING.

Signature move? What was David Robinson's signature move that allowed him to play well into his late 30s? What was Wilt Chamberlain's move that allowed him to play well into his late 30s? What was Karl Malone's signature move that allowed him to play until he was 40? What the hell does having a signature move have to do with anything I said anyway? Kareem with the Showtime Lakers in the late 1980s was still slow and plodding. It didn't prevent the Lakers from running an uptempo fast break style. How does not having or not having a signature move refute that? Kareem didn't shoot the sky hook in transition, genius.

They were going to lose that "great player" for nothing anyway this summer when he opted out. And, even if they get nothing, they get rid of a player that didn't want to be there, demanded a trade, was clashing with management, coaching, and teammates, was jealous of his teammates, and was overrated anyway. So even if they get nothing for him, at least they get rid of the headache and have a "gambler's chance" of getting past teams with great low post presences.

[JamStone]

How do you rebound now with bad knees, hips, oh and please dont forget that sore BIG TOE!!!!
Sorry Suns fans...you're not getting the shaq you hope for. He's done.

As long as he puts a body on the biggest guy on the other team, he doesn't need to. Amare will do the rebounding against smaller and less athletic bigs.

People automatically assume because Shaq is no longer athletic that he can't be effective. No, he's not going to produce like a 25 year old Shaq. But, he needs to be accounted for. Amare no longer has to be the only big man to defend and rebound. Shaq in the low post at both ends of the court is still better than a 6-7, 230 pound Shawn Marion playing power forward. It just is.

[Shred]

I am shocked that there are not more suns fans on here defending this trade. THey usually litter every other thread.

Spur fan's obsession with the Suns has the posts coming so fast & furious we can't keep up.

*

[Herschel Walker]

Spurs fans are projecting too much of their wishes on this trade. Shaq can commit himself to doing what it takes to winning a championship and letting someone else get the glory (ie Miami). If Shaq wins a title with the Suns that will have been 3 different teams he's accomplished that on as well as 4 different teams he helped take to the NBA Finals. His legacy is already pretty stout but going back to the Finals with yet another team this year would be ridiculous. Don't think he isn't aware of that. Plus going through the West and knocking off the Lakers who took Kobe over him as well as the Champion Spurs is no small motivation.
Shaq should have some motivation, but it remains to be seen if his body can get it done anymore. Its too early to tell if this trade is good or not, but Shaq has to get on the floor and test his body before any determination can be made. Given his recent struggles I'd say he has to prove his body can still get it done.

[mardigan]

He was really funny in his press conference, and he seemed super excited to be on the team. "This team's great with or without me, I just want to fit in and help make everyone better".

[T Park]

Yeah the worst thing that could happen happened.

Shaq has reportedly lost weight and is in good shape.

Spurs HAVE to get a PJ Brown or Kurt Thomas to compete vs the Suns now...

[BillsCarnage]

The Suns still need a back up point guard too.. Barbasa aint cutting it!

BUT, they don't need a backup PG like they have in the past because whoever brings the ball down will toss it in to Shaq and he'll kick it out. Between Nash, Diaw, Hill and Shaq the Suns don't need to worry about passing the ball.

What so many ppl don't seem to realize is how this should reduce the opponent offensive rebounds - hopefully significantly. As the team was, once Amare was boxed out the rest of the players were under sized and Marion was the only one would could sky to get a rebound. Blocks should go down as well because teams won't be able to run freely in the paint anymore.

Once/If Shaq is integrated and playing I'd look for those two stats to be reduced by half.

Teams out rebound the Suns simply by the offensive end. Defensive is usually fairly close.

[CaptainLate]

Shaq should have some motivation, but it remains to be seen if his body can get it done anymore....Given his recent struggles I'd say he has to prove his body can still get it done.

I'm betting "it" can't and the guy ends up retiring. Kerr's gamble will get him fired after the season. :bang

Bottom line: Suns felt the "pressure", as Pop hinted in his recent comments. The pressure came from the Spurs...and now the Flakers. Suns screwed up, plain and simple. :elephant

Dyke for Prez: http://devvy.net/candidates/hillary_final.html

[JamStone]

Marcus Banks wasn't really playing anyway even when they had him. Grant Hill and Boris Diaw will share point guard responsibilities with Barbosa when Nash rests.

[mardigan]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-080207


2. Mike D'Antoni was the first Suns voter to push for the deal … and Kerr was actually the last one to sign off.

This will be recorded as Kerr's first major move since assuming control of the Suns' front office and maybe the biggest trade he'll ever make. He knows he's "on the line" with how it turns out.

"If it works, I'm a genius," Kerr said. "If it doesn't, I'm a moron, I guess."

Maybe that's why Kerr was the hardest to convince.

It was easy to assume that this deal was somewhat forced on D'Antoni; welcoming Shaq could be saying goodbye to a fair bit of the speed and abandon that has defined the Suns since D'Antoni and Nash hooked up for the 2004-05 season. But Phoenix privately insists -- and Kerr alluded to it publicly as well -- that D'Antoni was actually ready to make the trade as soon as it was presented to him.

It appears that Kerr was the apprehensive one, having closely followed the loud skepticism all season about how much O'Neal has left. That's why he insisted that O'Neal subject himself to a lengthy evaluation Wednesday afternoon with the Suns' doctors and training staff before the deal went through, during which those experts convinced Kerr that they can indeed nurse Shaq back to a healthy place like they've maintained with Nash and Hill.

"I wasn't going to do this," Kerr said, "unless I felt really good about it from a medical standpoint."

Said D'Antoni: "The question mark was, 'Does he have any gas left in the tank?' And I think you guys have debated it now for 24 hours and come up with 'no.' And I think you're wrong.

"I do find it kind of funny … first we can't win without a big man and once we get a big man, now we can't win with a big man. I do think he's not going to come to Phoenix and lay an egg."

[Whisky Dog]

I'm not saying Shaq will be a complete bust with the Suns, but that article Mardigan just posted sounds more like the Suns' brass is trying to convince themselves that Shaq has something left. Truth is that nobody knows what he can do or if he can be healthy, and everyone involved with the Suns is going to spin this in their favor until it's proven one way or the other on the court.

[BonnerDynasty]

I do not buy this bullshit about D'Antonio being the one who made this happen.

D'Antoni kept saying his system worked and we all know Kerr saw the Spurs beat them last week and had enough.

Also D'Antonio was on Mike and Mike and his story was completely different from the above article!

Hmmmmmmm

[Strike]

I do not buy this bullshit about D'Antonio being the one who made this happen.

D'Antoni kept saying his system worked and we all know Kerr saw the Spurs beat them last week and had enough.

Also D'Antonio was on Mike and Mike and his story was completely different from the above article!

Hmmmmmmm

Could this season in Phoenix be the last for D'antownedi?

[ManuTastic]

You really get more idiotic with each post. While i'm still out on this trade, do you think a franchise would invest almost $50mil into a player if they didn't think there was something left??? This is why you're a fan and Kerr is the GM. He has the medical staff (one of the best in the NBA) and other experts to determine if Shaq can work.

So I'm an idiot because the Phx FO "thinks" there's "something left" in Shaq's tank? Wow, you're so right, no GM has ever gambled and lost on a big trade before. What was I smoking?

Next...

[mardigan]

So I'm an idiot because the Phx FO "thinks" there's "something left" in Shaq's tank? Wow, you're so right, no GM has ever gambled and lost on a big trade before. What was I smoking?

Next...
No your an idiot because you think you know more on the shape of Shaq than the Suns front office, which makes you a giant idiot.

[T Park]

That ESPN Article Mardigan posted is scary.

If you were laughing at the trade and didn't believe before, that article will change your mind.

If it doesn't your being plaing Naive.

[Whisky Dog]

That ESPN Article Mardigan posted is scary.

If you were laughing at the trade and didn't believe before, that article will change your mind.

If it doesn't your being plaing Naive.

You should wait to see the guy play to see if he can still even play worth a damn before you go getting scared. If you just have to have something to be scared of I'd suggest looking at the Lakers, who have a possible perfect storm brewing with the genius of Phil Jackson leading Kobe, Gasol, Bynum, and a pretty decent surrounding cast.

[Bruno]

Shaq is being worse and worse each year. It comes to the point where he was very average this year.
You can use the "motivated" or "healthy" card as much as you want but the most likely case is just that his age is catching him up.

This trade has the upside to be scary for Spurs if a miracle happens and Shaq rejuvenates. Miracle usually doesn't happen and this trade will make Suns worse, even against Spurs.

[Xylus]

I am shocked that there are not more suns fans on here defending this trade. THey usually litter every other thread.
It's a difficult trade to defend because it's so bizarre. I considered many trade scenarios involving Marion, all Suns fans did once he announced he wanted out, but Shaquille O'Neal was never a part of any of those considerations. On the surface, he seems like a bad fit, but it's very possible he is the missing piece.

I'm optimistic about the trade, but it's no sure thing. This is a prime example of a "wait-and-see" trade.

[T Park]

Kerr said on an interview with mike Tirico that the doctors in Phoenix figured out "his lift and jump problems"

Yeah lets not get worried.

[Kori Ellis]

This is written by me elsewhere.

http://www.steamysports.com/shaq-to-the-suns-brilliant-trade


A lot of the national media is whining about how the Phoenix Suns trading for Shaquille O’Neal. They say that trading Shawn Marion was too much to give up for Shaq. They say that the Suns should have stuck to their guns.

And I say the people who are questioning the trade are crazy. This is Shaquille Freakin’ O’Neal we are talking about. I don’t care that he’s 35 going on 36. He’s one of the best players of all-time and even at his advanced age he’s still the biggest and strongest player in the league.

It’s no accident that in eight of the last nine seasons, either Shaq or Tim Duncan has won the NBA championship. Dominating post players win championships. That has been proven over and over again. Unless you have Michael Jordan on your team, you need a superstar bigman.

Sure, there are injury concerns with Shaq. But that was a risk the Suns had to take. They weren’t going to win a championship trotting out Steve Nash and a bunch of athletes. The Suns have attempted that route a number of times already and the result has always been the same.

Anyone who had watched the Suns this year could see the team wasn’t even as good as last year’s Suns team. The chemistry had gotten worse. Nash had gotten another year old and another year slower. If the Suns couldn’t win a championship any of the last three seasons, they weren’t going to win a championship this season.

Instead of being happy with another good regular season and a flameout in the playoffs, Suns’ general manager Steve Kerr made a bold trade to get a proven championship player. He could have easily been happy with status quo, however he decided to make a gutsy move that will either blow up in his face or be the best trade he ever made. Only time will tell.

The bottomline is Shaq gives the Suns a chance. Before he arrived in town, the Suns were a gimmick regular season team that had no chance at a championship. Now, if Shaq gets healthy and the team can gain some momentum heading into the playoffs, no team in the NBA will want to face this new look Phoenix squad.

That trade was crazy, alright. Crazy like a fox.

[T Park]

People laughing about the trade should only point to the Chise's comments about it.

"If healthy its a concern"

Or something along those lines.

[JamStone]

Shaq is being worse and worse each year. It comes to the point where he was very average this year.
You can use the "motivated" or "healthy" card as much as you want but the most likely case is just that his age is catching him up.

This trade has the upside to be scary for Spurs if a miracle happens and Shaq rejuvenates. Miracle usually doesn't happen and this trade will make Suns worse, even against Spurs.


Thing is what is more valuable? An average center still capable of dominating at times on a team that has no center or a top 5 (being generous now) small forward who has to play power forward because the power forward is playing center on a team that has multiple players that can also play small forward?

There are few even average centers in the league. Athletic 6-7 small forwards with intangibles are not rare.

Of course it will take time to see if it works. And of course Shaq's health is a huge issue. And of course there will be some adjusting that needs to take place from all sides. But, strictly from a roster balance perspective considering the teams the Suns have to go through in the West, the trade makes plenty of sense.

And, yes, bottom line is we'll have to wait and see if it works out.

[1Parker1]

This helps the Suns match up much better to a lot of the Western Conference teams I think...also I think the addition of a healthy Grant Hill made Marion more easily expendable to them.

If healthy, Shaq can still give you a good 14-15 ppg on 50% shooting. And he gives you rebounds and a presence in the middle...no matter if he's a good defender or not. Not only that, Suns needed a leader/personality like him on their team. Nash is not a vocal leader and basically D'Antoni was the voice of that team...and not a good one at that. He's now the toughest guy on that team, IMO.

This is why I also think the Mavs need a player like Kidd...they need that type of leader/personality. Avery Johnson is their voice, and he's clearly not getting to them when it counts the most. They need a tough minded guy like Kidd to get over their playoff fear.

[temujin]

After the McHale-Garnett and West-Gasol "deals".
I had called the Spurs FO to activate one of their men around the NBA.
I even mentioned Presti.

They activated Kerr, rather.

Good job Kerr.

He basically sent Marion to Miami for nothing.

Miami is too bad even with Marion, and even next year.

[Bruno]

There are few even average centers in the league. Athletic 6-7 small forwards with intangibles are not rare.


The fact that they are fewer average center in the league that 6'7" SF doesn't mean than an average center will help Suns more than an athletic 6'7" SF.

Marion was Phoenix glue guy. Despite all his whining, he was really important to them on the court. Shaq will need to play better than what he has done this year if he wants to match what Marion brought to Suns.



But, strictly from a roster balance perspective considering the teams the Suns have to go through in the West, the trade makes plenty of sense.

Shaq solve some of Suns troubles but he will create other ones.

How Shaq will mesh with the run and gun ?
How Shaq and Stoudamire will play together on the offensive end ?
Will Shaq interior presence be enough to compensate Marion perimeter defense ?
Is Shaq still mobile enough to be good on the defensive end ?

When I look at all these questions and when I look at what has done lately, I'm pessimistic about chances that this trade will improve Suns.

[Rummpd]

5 teams can win West that is the truth.

[JamStone]

The fact that they are fewer average center in the league that 6'7" SF doesn't mean than an average center will help Suns more than an athletic 6'7" SF.

Not that there are few average centers in the league by itself. The fact that there are few average centers in the league and the Suns main competition to get out of the West are teams like the Spurs and the Lakers who have above average centers (labeling Duncan as center). When Amare is the only low post presence at both ends, teams like the Spurs and the Lakers can take advantage of that. At least with Shaq, he brings another big body. Now say what you will about his decline and lack of defense, you still would rather have Shaq defending Duncan and Bynum than Shawn Marion.



Marion was Phoenix glue guy. Despite all his whining, he was really important to them on the court. Shaq will need to play better than what he has done this year if he wants to match what Marion brought to Suns.

A glue guy that alienated his teammates, coaches, and management because of that constant whining demanding respect, demanding attention, demanding a trade. It's a given Shaq has to not only be healthy but play better than he has this year. But, he will also not be counted on to be the number 1 or number 2 option and won't have to play 30+ minutes a game.



Shaq solve some of Suns troubles but he will create other ones.

How Shaq will mesh with the run and gun ?
How Shaq and Stoudamire will play together on the offensive end ?
Will Shaq interior presence be enough to compensate Marion perimeter defense ?
Is Shaq still mobile enough to be good on the defensive end ?

1. He won't. He'll start it with rebounding and an outlet pass. Most times he'll stay back. It's not like the Suns can't finish a fast break without him. Earlier in this thread, I mentioned Kareem with the Showtime Lakers when Kareem was old and slow. It will be a similar situation.

2. It will take time and adjustments no doubt. But, with the Nash-Amare pick and roll, there's no way a help defender can roll over to contest Amare or Shaq gets a wide open dunk. It will take practice, good spacing, and patience, but Amare is more than capable of playing the high post.

3. Marion's perimeter defense was often off set by the Phoenix run and gun style. What did Marion's perimeter defense really matter most of the time when both teams were scoring in the 110s and 120s? When was Marion's perimeter defense a key in winning a playoff series? How huge of a drop-off are Grant Hill and Boris Diaw?

4. Shaq's value at the defense won't be in his mobility or lack thereof. It will be his ability to defend the post one on one adequately. Not be a defensive wall. Just be there against teams with low post threats. That in itself will allow Amare not to get into foul trouble. And, guaranteed, his presence will help prevent at least a few more guard drives to the basket.


I think there were more serious questions on how a Suns team with Marion and without Shaq defeating teams in the western conference that had legit and productive low post big men in a playoff series than there are now. Not that there aren't questions and issues. There absolutely are. But, there's a give and take. And, we'll just have to see.

[jacobdrj]

Nice one JamStone.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

JamStone :tu

[Bruno]

At least with Shaq, he brings another big body. Now say what you will about his decline and lack of defense, you still would rather have Shaq defending Duncan and Bynum than Shawn Marion.

I still would rather have Marion defending Parker than Nash.




A glue guy that alienated his teammates, coaches, and management because of that constant whining demanding respect, demanding attention, demanding a trade.

Off the court things. On the court, Marion was really important to Phoenix.



But, he will also not be counted on to be the number 1 or number 2 option and won't have to play 30+ minutes a game.

So it's great that Suns trade for a player who won't play a lot and won't get a lot the ball on the offensive end ?




He won't. He'll start it with rebounding and an outlet pass. Most times he'll stay back. It's not like the Suns can't finish a fast break without him. Earlier in this thread, I mentioned Kareem with the Showtime Lakers when Kareem was old and slow. It will be a similar situation.

Are you seriously comparing the NBA of the 80's to today's NBA ?
Run and gun is the most efficient when you have players who can outrun their opponents. With Shaq at C and Stoudamire at PF, Suns' run and gun will be way less efficient than before.



When was Marion's perimeter defense a key in winning a playoff series? How huge of a drop-off are Grant Hill and Boris Diaw?

Marion is a way better perimeter defender than Hill or Diaw. Marion and bell are the reason why Phoenix defense wasn't horrible.



Shaq's value at the defense won't be in his mobility or lack thereof. It will be his ability to defend the post one on one adequately. Not be a defensive wall. Just be there against teams with low post threats.

I just don't see Shaq able to do a decent job in the post against player like Duncan, Boozer or Gasol.

[JamStone]

Quoting makes the post so much longer ... responses in the same order as yours:


1. Marion guarding Parker ultimately didn't lead to the Suns winning a playoff series against the Spurs. Grant Hill and Barbosa will have to somehow contain Parker as well as they can. When Amare is in foul trouble, I'd rather have Shaq's big body against a Duncan in the post rather than Marion or Diaw.

2. Of the court issues caused problems for the team. On the court, Marion absolutely fit the Phoenix style. Off the court issues can leak to performance on the court, especially for Marion had he stayed.

3. I didn't say the trade was great. But, in the eyes of the Suns coaching staff and management, they thought it made their team better. And, it's good when a team that lacks an inside presence trades for a player that provides inside presence.

4. I didn't compare today's NBA with the 80s NBA. I compared an uptempo transition team with an old and slow center with an uptempo transition team with an old and slow center. Eras have nothing to do with it. Showtime was a productive and efficient fast break team with an old and slow center. Phoenix can be a productive and efficient fast break team with an old and slow center. Has nothing to do with comparing eras. It has everything to do with comparing teams with similar styles and similar personnel.

5. Phoenix defense was still horrible. Diaw is actually a very good defender. How often did Phoenix win games based on Marion shutting someone down? I'm guessing rarely. What good is Marion's defense on Parker if Duncan is dropping 35 and 15 on Amare and getting Amare in foul trouble? Marion is a good defender. He was a good defender when the Suns were a lottery team. He'll be a good defender on another lottery team. His defense was not the difference between Suns being a lottery team and the Suns being a title contender.

6. Shaq doesn't have to be great in the post. He has to make players work for their baskets, play straight up with no double team help, deliver a few very hard fouls when beat, and keep Amare Stoudemire out of foul trouble. If Shaq fouls out but made Duncan or Boozer or Bynum or Gasol earn their points at the free throw line and allow Amare to not get into deep foul trouble, that is an improvement over the alternative ... when Amare is in foul trouble, put Boris Diaw or Brian Skinner or Shawn Marion on those guys.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

I'm still thinking how this trade is going to help the Suns other than making a move to try stopping Duncan and maybe adding a guy who has won something before and then the experience factor/plus.

Is it confirmed this was Steve Kerr's idea, not Dantoni's?

I can't imagine what's Dantoni going to do now in order to make their entire team continue playing at that pace - can you imagine Shaq with his 350 pound running to the other side of the court for an easy basket? If there was anyone in this team who had the ability to read Dantoni's style of play, that was Marion, and now he's gone.

If it was Dantoni's idea then I guess he's finally accepting his style of play doesn't = rings so he's focusing on D a little bit more and slowing the tempo.

I saw that Steve Nash was happy with the trade though. He's missing Dirk so much.

[T Park]

D'Antoni accepting that run and gun wasn't working and deciding to focus on defense and running good half court offense is a bad sign as well.

What he does with it is another story though.

[T Park]

4. Shaq's value at the defense won't be in his mobility or lack thereof. It will be his ability to defend the post one on one adequately. Not be a defensive wall. Just be there against teams with low post threats. That in itself will allow Amare not to get into foul trouble. And, guaranteed, his presence will help prevent at least a few more guard drives to the basket.



Yup.

The Spurs don't have another big offensively that could get Amare in foul trouble.

Oberto could, but doubtfull hed get calls on the offensive end.

[Bruno]

JamStone, there isn't a lot more to say about Shaq/Marion except that we disagree.
You think that Shaq will help more Suns than Marion and I think the opposite.

Only future will tell who was right and who was wrong.

[sprrs]

4. I didn't compare today's NBA with the 80s NBA. I compared an uptempo transition team with an old and slow center with an uptempo transition team with an old and slow center. Eras have nothing to do with it. Showtime was a productive and efficient fast break team with an old and slow center. Phoenix can be a productive and efficient fast break team with an old and slow center. Has nothing to do with comparing eras. It has everything to do with comparing teams with similar styles and similar personnel.


Except Marion was one of their best finishers on the break. They'll still be a fast break team, but do you think they'll be just as, if not more effective than without Marion?

[JamStone]

One of the best finishers on the break, not the only.


Bruno, agreed. Good discussion.

[johngateswhiteley]

The idea of Marion doing nothing against Spurs is just wrong.

During last playoffs, Marion has averaged 16 ppg with a 53% FG%, 10.5 rpg and 2.3 bpg against Spurs. He also played quite good defense against Parker.

Losing Marion will definitely hurt Suns what ever is their opponent.

2007 playoffs:

game 1: 16 points 6 boards
game 2: 5 points 10 boards
game 3: 26 points 7 boards
game 4: 12 points 12 boards
game 5: 24 points 17 boards
game 6: 11 points 11 boards

...inconsistent and an average of 15.67ppg and 10.5rpg with a fg% of 52. this after his regular season average of 17.5ppg and 9.8rpg and a fg% of 52.4, so not bad. but this was his best series by far.

2003 playoffs:

game 1: 24 points 12 boards (42.1 fg%)
game 2: 6 points 12 boards (21.4 fg%)
game 3: 18 points 8 boards (40 fg%)
game 4: 17 points 14 boards (38.8 fg%)
game 5: 22 points 9 boards (35 fg%)
game 6: 24 points 15 boards (42.8 fg%)

...averages of 18.5 ppg and 11.67 bpg with a fg% of 37.3. season averages that year were 21.2ppg and 9.5rpg with 45.2 fg%.

2005 playoffs:

game 1: 3 points 9 boards (16.67 fg%)
game 2: 11 points 12 boards (45.45 fg%)
game 3: 6 points 9 boards (33.33 fg %)
game 4: 11 points 14 boards (41.67 fg%)
game 5: 8 points 10 boards (50% fg%)

...averages of 7.8ppg and 10.8 rpg and a fg% of 39.1. season averages that year were 19.4ppg and 11.3rpg with 47.6 fg%.

Marion played his best in the 2007 series, before that he either couldn't get his shot up or when he did he shot a pathetic % vs. his regular season average. i stand by my original statements.

[T Park]

Before last year was all Bruce Bowen.

Last year I think Bowen played Nash alot more and Parker switched over to Bell.

[johngateswhiteley]

Before last year was all Bruce Bowen.

Last year I think Bowen played Nash alot more and Parker switched over to Bell.

i think you're right. marion has shooting problems against good defenders, what else is new. i think the trade helps phoenix, but that doesn't mean they win a title.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

A healthy Shaq is obviously great for the Suns. I'm not sure how healthy he can be at this point in his career though.

An unhealthy Shaq will just eat up $20M of salary space the next two years and will effectively nail the Suns championship window shut.

Steve Kerr put it all on the line and you have to respect him for that. This move will make or break this team. He basically stole a page from Danny Ainge who saw that you have to just go for it all when you can. People will always remember that you won a championship. 20 years from now no one will remember today's teams that spent 8 years with a top 3 seed always coming up a little short.

[Bruno]

Marion played his best in the 2007 series, before that he either couldn't get his shot up or when he did he shot a pathetic % vs. his regular season average. i stand by my original statements.

What is more relevant ? What Marion did in 2003, 2005 or 2007 ?

[johngateswhiteley]

What is more relevant ? What Marion did in 2003, 2005 or 2007 ?

you can backtrack or spin it all you want...bottom line, marion does not usually play well against the spurs...he is not hard to shut down. this trade makes the suns a little better, provided shaq plays.

[Bruno]

you can backtrack or spin it all you want...bottom line, marion does not usually play well against the spurs...he is not hard to shut down. this trade makes the suns a little better, provided shaq plays.

No, bottom line is that Marion played well against Spurs last playoffs and his loss will hurt them even against Spurs.
Hill and Shaq will have to compensate what Marion Kurt Thomas brought last year against Spurs. We will see if they will be able to do it.

And it's funny that you say that I'm spinning things. I'm not the one who post 2003 stats when Suns were playing with Marbury.

[mojorizen7]

Marion had become a black hole in the playoffs with the slower tempo.
He can't take the man in front of him off the dribble, he can't create a good shot with the clock winding down, he can't post up anybody, & his 3 pt shot is streaky.
We'll miss his energy & hustle which is a big loss, but this deal had to made IMO.
Not to mention the tension in the locker room.
You guys are still the champs, & the SUNS weren't going to win anything before this trade so KERR rolled the dice & the effects may not be known till April.
The SUNS medical staff has done wonders at times with the likes of A.McDyess,G.Hill,S.Nash, & even A.Stoudemire so it's not so far fetched to think that they can't get O'Neil's body to perform at a higher level.
You guys are the model franchise as to how to get it done.
I believe this deal has gotten us much closer(health permitting) to a realistic goal of being the last team standing in May.
Having said that, we still have the mis-fortune of having D'Antoni as a head coach.

[johngateswhiteley]

No, bottom line is that Marion played well against Spurs last playoffs and his loss will hurt them even against Spurs.
Hill and Shaq will have to compensate what Marion Kurt Thomas brought last year against Spurs. We will see if they will be able to do it.

And it's funny that you say that I'm spinning things. I'm not the one who post 2003 stats when Suns were playing with Marbury.

marion did play well last year, but that was an aberration. he is not a thorn in the Spurs side, he doesn't hurt us, he isn't that good.

who cares if he was playing with marbury in 2003, the spurs had to guard him and in 2005 when they had nash he played even worse. whats your point? he pretty much stinks it up against the spurs. the Spurs OWN him, period.

...i just remembered why i hardly ever come in this forum. does losing Marion hurt phoenix against other teams?...maybe, but not against the Spurs, whom are the reigning champions and still the best in the west. i'm done.

[johngateswhiteley]

Marion had become a black hole in the playoffs with the slower tempo.
He can't take the man in front of him off the dribble, he can't create a good shot with the clock winding down, he can't post up anybody, & his 3 pt shot is streaky.
We'll miss his energy & hustle which is a big loss, but this deal had to made IMO.
Not to mention the tension in the locker room.
You guys are still the champs, & the SUNS weren't going to win anything before this trade so KERR rolled the dice & the effects may not be known till April.
The SUNS medical staff has done wonders at times with the likes of A.McDyess,G.Hill,S.Nash, & even A.Stoudemire so it's not so far fetched to think that they can't get O'Neil's body to perform at a higher level.
You guys are the model franchise as to how to get it done.
I believe this deal has gotten us much closer(health permitting) to a realistic goal of being the last team standing in May.
Having said that, we still have the mis-fortune of having D'Antoni as a head coach.

:tu i agree.

[sprrs]

One of the best finishers on the break, not the only.


Bruno, agreed. Good discussion.

But it won't suffer even slightly?

[Spurminator]

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Suns throw Bell at Parker down the stretch and take their chances with Hill or Diaw on Manu.

[callo1]

Just wanted to start an official "Thank You" thread for Steve Kerr, our new BFF. He just removed PHX from the list of playoff problems for all of us in the West. Now and for the next few years, since Snaq's giant contract will cripple the franchise going forward.

Yeah yeah, I know, Marion was unhappy, but THIS is the best they could do?

A toast! :drunk


Phoenix a playoff problem ?!?!?!?!?!

The Suns don't even qualify as a rivalry...you know the formula for a rivalry, they have to win something to be considered one.