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Supreme_Being

02-07-2008, 10:11 AM

HoopsHype.com NBA Blogs - Eddie Johnson

Why Phoenix made the deal for Shaq

February 7, 2008 @ 9:17 am · Filed under Dallas Mavericks, San Antonio Spurs, Phoenix Suns, Los Angeles Lakers, Shawn Marion, Shaquille O'Neal, Pau Gasol

A few weeks ago I heard about a potential deal the Suns might be involved in, but I brushed it off because around this time of year we hear all kinds of rumors. Then when the Lakers acquired Pau Gasol, my mind started to wonder and mainly because there are two teams that the Suns view as huge hurdles to the finals: the Lakers and the Spurs.

I again started to worry because it meant more Shawn Marion trade rumors and one more round of those rumors could really destroy any progress the Suns made since the Garnett discussions last summer with regards to the Matrix.

Well, here we are again and this time it’s a done deal.

Let’s get one thing straight before I talk about the value of this trade and give my five reasons why the Suns had to make a deal for Shaq and my five reasons why it could work… Shawn Marion is one the best people and players I have ever had the pleasure of watching and the Miami Heat will find out what working hard for 48 minutes is all about when the Matrix arrives in South Beach.

Marion leaves as one of the most consistent and popular Sun players ever and he will definitely be a candidate for the Suns Ring of Honor when he retires. Shawn is the best combination rebounder and defender in this league since Dennis Rodman and the Suns will have to find a combination of players to replace what Marion brought to the table every night in those hustle categories.

I also know Shawn well enough to say that he will indeed miss Phoenix, but he understands that being traded virtually head up for the most dominant player that has probably played is nothing to be embarrassed about.

Although the Matrix factor will be missed, the Suns had to do something. Yes, they have the best record in the Western Conference. But something was not right. The dominance that we were used to see was not there on a consistent basis. We did not see the blowout games or the 20 to 4 runs that this team has spoiled us with over the last three years. The games seemed to be a grind and it wore on the fans and critics and caused us to think that maybe the Suns were becoming vulnerable. That, combined with the improvement of the Hornets, Nuggets, Trail Blazers and Warriors at the bottom of the pack, made a trip to the Finals look hazy and difficult.

So we also must assume the Suns front office and coaching staff had some of the same anxiety because they are extremely giddy at having the opportunity to put Shaq in a Suns uniform.

Here are five reasons why the Suns had to make this move for Shaquille O’Neal:

Steve Nash’s window of opportunity is closing

As each year passes, the Suns cannot expect Nash to continue to create offensively for everyone. Pushing the ball on the fast break is one thing, but having to run the two-man game 40 possessions every night against physical defenses will eventually take its toll. Nash deserves a chance to add a title to his two MVP trophies.

Spurs have never won back-to-back championships

The last time this scenario came to bear, the Dallas Mavericks used a physical combination of Erick Dampier and DeSagana Diop to wear down the Amare-less Suns to move on to the Finals against Shaq and the Heat. The Spurs have showed signs of wear and tear and the Suns do not want to miss out again on this opportunity.

Lakers add Pau Gasol factor

The Lakers could have said we traded for Pau Gasol on Halloween because it scared everyone in the Western Conference. I don’t even play anymore and it scared me. Imagine the frontline of Lamar Odom, Andrew Bynum and Gasol. Then combine it with the athleticism and shooting of Kobe Bryant and it’s obvious how every team is saying, “Why is Phil Jackson so darn lucky and why can’t he suffer for long?”

Throw in Trevor Ariza, Jordan Farmar, Derek Fisher and Ronny Turiaf. The Lakers look like a championship team this year.

Suns are 2-6 against the top teams in the West

The Suns have beaten the Lakers without Bynum and they beat the Spurs early in the season. They are 0-2 against the Hornets, lost twice to the Lakers with Bynum and got beaten by the Mavericks. The major reason for the losses has been an inability to defend the paint and the lack of defensive rebounding. Proof lays in the stats of the teams interior players when they play the Suns. Bynum averages 21 and 12. Duncan averages 27 and 17. Chandler averages 15 and 15. All above their season averages. And if you want to look further, Al Jefferson, who plays on arguably the worst team in the league, averages 32 and 16 in two Timberwolves wins this season against the Suns.

Combine this with the foul trouble of the Suns best offensive player, Amare Stoudemire, and we see why the Suns chose to pursue Shaq.

The Portland Trail Blazers and the Greg Oden factor

The Blazers are the team of the future. If Greg Oden lives up to his promise and LaMarcus Aldridge and All-Star Brandon Roy continue to grow, the Suns will have another couple of big bodies to deal with over the next few years.

So now that I have given you why the Suns made the move, here are five reasons why it could work:

First let me say this… I have heard the comment about Shaq is a shell of himself so on and so forth. Give me a break. I predicted the Heat would struggle this year and it was not because of Shaq. It was because of the players Pat Riley surrounded him with. Riley basically signed and drafted players that can’t throw the ball into the post and most importantly did not strike fear in teams with their jump shooting ability. This can ruin any big man that is a threat to post up and be productive in this league, including one of the most dominant ever.

So it’s absurd to judge Shaq on what he has done this year. He deserves to be judged on what he can bring to the Suns.

Suns rise immediately to one of the most physical teams

Shaquille O’Neal is a wall. The most overhyped stat is blocked shot. What about deterrence and altering decisions with the ball? The Suns are at the top of the league in blocked shots, but are viewed as a weak defensive team. The reason they blocked shots is because they got a ton of opportunities. Now that statistic will go down, but the opposition’s in-the-paint scoring will too. That means teams will take more jump shots and the Suns are better at that game than anyone in the league and now they also have the interior scoring of Amare and Shaq to boot.

The Suns are the worst defensive rebounding team in the league because they could not command space. Shaq will allow Amare, Grant Hill, Raja Bell, Boris Diaw, etcetera, to be better rebounders because he will eat up space and punish offensive rebounders with long outlet passes – thus allowing Nash and Leandro Barbosa to leak out.

Finally, Shaq will protect Steve Nash and Amare Stoudemire from physical play. Players are physically afraid of him and he will punish you if you take shots at his teammates. I would love to see Robert Horry throw Nash to the floor with Shaq around to punish Parker or Duncan.

Three players that command serious defensive attention

Shaq, Steve Nash and Amare Stoudemire will cause teams to change their defensive philosophy during the course of the game, which is extremely difficult to do.

Case in point. How will teams defend the Suns when they run the high pick-and-roll with Amare? Normally teams will rotate the weak side big defender over to challenge him. Well, if that occurs you have Shaq on the weak block flashing in for a pass from Nash or a guard trying to block him out. If teams get silly enough to rotate a small player to Amare, then they allow Raja Bell or Leandro Barbosa to have wide open three-point shots on the weak side.

Mike D’Antoni can use his full playbook now with the back-to-the-basket dominance of Shaq.

Improve the running game

The biggest fallacy about the Suns and their running game is that Shaq will slow them down. I believe it will speed them up and give them more opportunities to run. I have already talked about possessions and the physicality Shaq brings to the Suns.

Now couple that with better confidence with your defensive rebounding – thus allowing Nash, Barbosa, Hill and Bell to run out earlier. The Suns could be even more potent. Also throw in Amare running more because of not having to fight and box out big centers.

I never saw Kareem Abdul-Jabbar running the lanes for the Lakers, but I did see him igniting it with rebounding and long outlet passes, and then coming down on the block with commanding presence.

Amare will become more dominant

Because of the matchup nightmare Shaq would bring, Amare Stoudemire will benefit the most.

Foul trouble should decrease and scoring and rebounding should go up. Also watch for his weak side defense to produce more blocked shots and steals. We have never seen what Shaq could do with a young dominant power forward beside him and he has one of the best in Stoudemire, who should be ecstatic at the chance to stop battling centers every night.

Nash can play without dominating ball

This might be the most important cause of the Shaq trade and here is why.

D’Antoni would love to keep Nash on the floor and use him off the ball, but he knows the offense would stall. The addition of Shaq and his great passing out of the post will allow the NBA’s best three-point shooter to spot up for periods during the game and punish defenses for doubling.

Case in point. Grant Hill throws it in to Shaq with Nash and either Barbosa or Bell on the weak side and Amare on the elbow waiting for the short jumpshot or the run to the basket if they double off of him.

This will destroy any defense and if Shaq stays healthy the Suns will be the team to beat come playoff time.

http://hoopshype.com/blogs/johnson/index.php/2008/02/07/why-phoenix-made-the-deal-for-shaq/

adidas11

02-07-2008, 10:18 AM

The biggest fallacy about the Suns and their running game is that Shaq will slow them down. I believe it will speed them up and give them more opportunities to run. I have already talked about possessions and the physicality Shaq brings to the Suns.

Now couple that with better confidence with your defensive rebounding – thus allowing Nash, Barbosa, Hill and Bell to run out earlier. The Suns could be even more potent. Also throw in Amare running more because of not having to fight and box out big centers.

I never saw Kareem Abdul-Jabbar running the lanes for the Lakers, but I did see him igniting it with rebounding and long outlet passes, and then coming down on the block with commanding presence.

A point that I brought up in another thread. Having Shaq on the Suns may actually allow them to run MORE, not less.

m33p0

02-07-2008, 10:20 AM

gotta admit, this might be the case.

VaSpursFan

02-07-2008, 10:27 AM

sound logic and reasoning...it'll be interesting to see how this plays out. i'm still waiting on dallas to make their panic trade :lol

JamStone

02-07-2008, 10:29 AM

Eddie Johnson might want to stop sucking Shawn Marion's dick now that he's not a Sun anymore. You'd think Marion impregnated him or something.

BillsCarnage

02-07-2008, 10:36 AM

Hey, EJ is a Suns homer, so know that first. That being said he has one of the highest basketball IQ's I've listened to.

The one thing in the presso yesterday i was curious to hear about was what the medical staff though of Shaq and evidently he's in pretty good shape. The Suns' medical staff is considered one of the best in the league and based on what they've done with Hill, Nash and Amare i have no doubt they can get Shaq back into decent playing shape.

I expect them to spend most of Feb working w/ Shaq - maybe even playing .500 ball. But, they don't care about the regular season now; it's all about getting Shaq ready for the PO's.

sribb43

02-07-2008, 10:42 AM

sribb43

02-07-2008, 10:43 AM

Shred

02-07-2008, 11:10 AM

it not so much about him getting in shape, its the fact that he has a jacked up hip that when he seems to play on it, automatically aggrevates it

"Jacked up?" Don't go throwing medical terms around here. Hey, where did you complete your fellowship in orthopedic surgery? Do you know my doctor?

sribb43, ca. 2006: "Amare will never play like he used to after microfracture surgery aggrevates [sic] his jacked up knee."

ancestron

02-07-2008, 11:14 AM

....we need a plan....

bonesinaz

02-07-2008, 11:17 AM

Eddie Johnson is so ridiculous that I would never take this seriously.

DazedAndConfused

02-07-2008, 11:21 AM

One thing I know about Pat Riley is that he knows the value of a big man. He's won all his rings off the backs of HOF centers. He would not trade Shaq unless he knew there was nothing left in the tank.

I applaud PHX for having the balls to make this move, but think about this. They could have signed Kurt Thomas for $8 million a year, a guy who IMHO plays better defense than Shaq and can rebound equally as well, AND kept Marion in the process. Instead they cut Thomas, sell their draft picks, and now are taking on Shaq's inflated contract. Horrible horrible decision making by the PHX FO.

Cry Havoc

02-07-2008, 11:32 AM

The one thing in the presso yesterday i was curious to hear about was what the medical staff though of Shaq and evidently he's in pretty good shape.

I've never questioned how "in shape" Shaq is. My thoughts on him are that he's older now, and regardless of how many calisthenics you do, you cannot gear an old frame to withstand the kind of weight that Shaq has now. The speed and pace and grind of an NBA schedule is too much.

EVEN if Shaq is healthy, how many minutes a game can he play? 25? 28, at the most? Marion was averaging close to 37. So that's 10 minutes per game, ideally, that you have empty space on the floor for Phoenix where an all-star used to be.

And this is all assuming Shaq doesn't get hurt in the rugged, pounding Western Conference.

boutons_

02-07-2008, 11:34 AM

Shaq is done.

fat (but down from peak obesity), outta shape, badly foul prone, injury prone, but these clowns make him out to be still the 30PT/12RB Shaq of 2000-2003.

conqueso

02-07-2008, 11:37 AM

i hate watching suns broadcast bc of EJ's homerism...atleast Tommy H. over with the C's is somewhat funny but EJ praises the suns as if they are the greatest thing on earth and its sickening. He by himself almost ruined a great game that i was watching between the suns/hornets. The way he was talking about shaq, youd think they had acquired the 24 yrs Orlando Magic Shaq

It's not his homerism that bothers me, but instead his inveterate retardation. I also find it unbelievable that people think his points are "logical," when they are anything but.

Here's the deal with Shaq. It would be a stretch for Shaq to play more than 24 mpg for the Suns even when healthy because of all the running, which means they're going to have to rely on Diaw and his $9 million (!) contract and Brian Skinner and his multi-colored goatie for most of the remaining 24 mpg. Marion was averaging 36.5 mpg, so that means an extra 12 minutes per game of either Skinner or Diaw, which should be a terrifying prospect for Suns fans.

But even when Shaq is in the game, he doesn't make them that much better. Yes, Shaq and Amare create matchup problems for the Spurs and Mavs and Lakers (until Bynum returns). The Rockets--who matchup up very well with them since Yao can bitch Shaq and Scola performed well against Gasol in international play--aren't an elite team with any chance of going deep into the playoffs. But which one is Dirk going to guard? Which one is Duncan going to guard? That's kind of a pick-your-poison deal, since even though Shaq is like 40 years old, he still weighs ten times his age and is still strong as shit, and banging with him will wear out whoever has to guard him.

Here's the thing though: the Suns have two paths they can follow with Shaq. Either they can try to make him fit in with the Suns' system (which is like the ultimate square peg in a round hole as Hollinger pointed out), or they can change the whole way their team approaches the game to accommodate Shaq. With the first option, Shaq will be pretty much useless, since it takes him :07 Seconds or MORE just to run down to the offensive end of the court...the Suns will have already shot the ball by the time his fat ass joins the play.

With the second option, the Suns do what everyone has been telling them they need to do to push it to a championship next level: slow the tempo down and commit to defense. No doubt this was Kerr's motivation for trading for Shaq; create matchup problems and slow everything WAY the fuck down. While this is a compelling move that is probably a good strategy generally, you would need to do more than trade Marion for Shaq to mold a team committed to defense. First, you would have to give Amare a brain transplant, since his ego won't allow him to play defense if it won't result in a highlight reel dunk. Second, you would need to just bench Nash, because he's a shitty defender to his core. And third and finally, you'd have to fire D'Antoni, because he just couldn't bring himself to grind everything down to a more reasonable, "boring," championship-winning pace.

But if the Suns do try to play more ugly ball with Shaq to utilize his strengths more, they just won't be the same team. For one thing, you don't have to double Shaq anymore because he's old and crippled, and so many of the threes taken by the Suns are wide-open in transition. If they slow down the break, all of those dry up. For another thing, changing the team to suit Shaq's skills moves the team away from a style that suits Nash's skills. He is not a spectacular half court point guard. In fact, he's probably not even one of the top 5 point guards in the league in the half court game. He's a full court, fast-breaking point guard, which is why he went from kinda-All-Star to fucking ridiculous MVP overnight when he moved from Dallas to Phoenix. Even though that Nellie Ball he was playing in Dallas was still fast-paced, it was nothing like the :07 Second or Less Suns, and his effectiveness reflected that.

If Phoenix is content to trade their MVP's domination for MAYBE 16 and 7 out of Shaq, then they should go ahead with this trade. But I don't think they've thought through all the "chemistry" issues thoroughly if they think replacing a whiny Marion with fucking Shaq is going to actually make their team run more smoothly, either on or off the court.

As for this idiot's specific points, I hear the point that better defensive rebounding could speed up the Suns, but it's not like you're getting a big improvement with Shaq in there: Marion averages 10 rpg this year (8.1 defensive rebounds per game), while Shaq only averages 7.8 rpg this year (4.8 defensive rebounds per game). Last year he averaged only 7.4 with 5 defensive boards. Plus, Marion was fast enough and athletic enough to do what DRob did way back in the day, which is grab a defensive board, outlet, and then run the floor so he could be involved in the finish. Shaq cannot do that. So with Shaq, you're getting a guy who's a worse defensive rebounder and much worse fast break runner,

While it's true that it doesn't take 5 guys to fast break, that's truly a retarded comment to make. Marion was, without a doubt, their best fast break finisher. They have given that away in return for someone who absolutely cannot be a part of the primary break, and might not even be a part of the secondary break. So while the Suns can still possibly fast break because "it doesn't take 5 guys to fast break," their fast break just got a LOT worse because they lost their best fast break finisher and didn't get anyone who can't effect anything except the rebound at the very start of the break. So not only have the Suns picked up a worse defensive rebounder and a much worse fast break runner, they've given up their best fast break finisher too.

And this is supposed to "improve their running game?" Is this what passes for insightful journalism these days? Shit.

I agree that they're a more physical team now. BFD. Horry didn't win that series last summer for the Spurs, Timmy D and Amare's ego did. So what if he can't shoulder check Nash for fear of the Big Gorilla's retaliation? And even though Shaq may help clog the paint and make interior scoring more difficult, the next step in his logical chain ignores the fact that the Suns have replaced one of their best jump shooters with a guy who can't make a shot from further than 5 feet out: "That means teams will take more jump shots and the Suns are better at that game than anyone in the league." Is it fair to just assume that the Suns will still be the best in the league at the jump shooting game now that their speed on the break has taken a huge hit and they've lost one of their best jump shooters? Christ, who the fuck decided to give this fool a blog?

I agree with him that teams will have to change the way they guard Amare on the high pick and roll, which is not going to cause some massive upheaval in the league. So they can't double off of Shaq...so what? They'll double off of Barbosa or Bell, which is just about as bad as doubling off of Marion from a three point perspective, so it's not like teams can't apply the same strategy. They just need to add a minor tweak.

As one last point, I think Amare might find it a little more difficult to score in the post with a huge blob like Shaq taking up so much space. Before, with Marion out wide, he had lots of room to work and space to use his athleticism to break free of his defender for a dunk. Now he's got to share that space with the basketball equivalent of the Titanic. And Amare's supposed to become more dominant? WTF?

BillsCarnage

02-07-2008, 11:41 AM

I applaud PHX for having the balls to make this move, but think about this. They could have signed Kurt Thomas for $8 million a year, a guy who IMHO plays better defense than Shaq and can rebound equally as well, AND kept Marion in the process. Instead they cut Thomas, sell their draft picks, and now are taking on Shaq's inflated contract. Horrible horrible decision making by the PHX FO.

But they would be in bad lux tax territory. KT was a salary dump plain and simple. This trade still keeps them with a relatively low tax.

EVEN if Shaq is healthy, how many minutes a game can he play? 25? 28, at the most? Marion was averaging close to 37. So that's 10 minutes per game, ideally, that you have empty space on the floor for Phoenix where an all-star used to be.

Evidently you didn't see Boris start last night - sans his idiotic play at the end. Shaq's not going to play more than 25, maybe 30 a game. I'm surprised soo many ppl think the Suns are going to run him out there 35, 40+ min a game. that's why those ppl are fans and not GM's or coaches.

And this is all assuming Shaq doesn't get hurt in the rugged, pounding Western Conference.

Time will tell, but i have to give kudos to Kerr and Sarver for having the cajones to make this trade. It's probably the biggest gamble in NBA history that could pay high rewards or make them look like complete bafoons.

This could be the best team that Shaq has ever played on and the Suns aren't relying on him to be the main go-to guy.

AZLouis

02-07-2008, 11:44 AM

Bill, the same was said about Grant Hill and his PT. We all know how that is going.

mardigan

02-07-2008, 11:48 AM

He would not trade Shaq unless he knew there was nothing left in the tank.
Or he realized his team sucked ass, had no players, had no cap room, and had an aging center with a big contract who he didnt want to see go out like that.

41times

02-07-2008, 11:57 AM

K-State Spur

02-07-2008, 12:17 PM

A point that I brought up in another thread. Having Shaq on the Suns may actually allow them to run MORE, not less.

I'm not buying it (not to say that I think Shaq will slow them down much either). A lot of people are talking about the rebounding he brings them. Well, at this state of their careers, Marion was an equal rebounder to Shaq. In addition, Marion - at the 4 - is really one of the best bigs playing in space in the league. Whether Phoenix likes it or not, when Shaq is on the floor, there will be one less player available for the easy buckets that they have become accustomed to.

BillsCarnage

02-07-2008, 12:30 PM

Bill, the same was said about Grant Hill and his PT. We all know how that is going.

and what ill effects has Hill showed, Lou? The same was said about Hill by the fans.

BonnerDynasty

02-07-2008, 12:36 PM

Yes, they have the best record in the Western Conference. But something was not right. The dominance that we were used to see was not there on a consistent basis. We did not see the blowout games or the 20 to 4 runs that this team has spoiled us with over the last three years.

Dominated? Spoiled?

They haven't given ya'll shit.

I see KJ is the Entertainment-over-Substance side of Suns Fan.

Cry Havoc

02-07-2008, 12:53 PM

and what ill effects has Hill showed, Lou? The same was said about Hill by the fans.

They're completely different types of injuries. Hill's injuries are genetic and can be overcome with a little luck. There is no luck left in Diesel. He's going to be hurt, consistently, for the rest of his career, because his body is too much for his frame to endure. As a regular person, he would probably have no such issues. However, playing at the NBA level completely exacerbates any kind of ailment you may have, especially due to weight.

As one last point, I think Amare might find it a little more difficult to score in the post with a huge blob like Shaq taking up so much space. Before, with Marion out wide, he had lots of room to work and space to use his athleticism to break free of his defender for a dunk. Now he's got to share that space with the basketball equivalent of the Titanic. And Amare's supposed to become more dominant? WTF?

That's precisely the point I made in another thread immediately after hearing the trade. Defenders are now going to easily be able to play over on Amare or Shaq as necessary because both of them play very close to the hoop.

I'm not hating on the Suns with this, either. I don't envy them for getting Shaq. I think they gave up a fantastic player who's extremely underrated because he isn't with the "balla" mentality of breaking ankles to get the first step. Marion on defense is great. Rebounding he's great. Making plays he's great. Shooting he's pretty darn good too.

The one thing he can't do is create his own shot. And now many Suns fans are calling him overrated? It just doesn't add up to me, and seems like cognitive dissonance more than anything else. You're attempting to rationalize this in your minds why this happened so you're casting off Marion as a no-talent malcontent to feel better about the situation. Of course, I agree, he doesn't have the best attitude, but neither does Amare. And at least Marion plays defense.

mardigan

02-07-2008, 12:55 PM

Eddie Johnson is a Suns Tool.

Those reason all are flawed.

Wouldn't Shaq have to be in shape enough to actually "Play" to do all those things?
I guess for 25 minutes per game he can do some stuff?

But really, are the Suns now all of the sudden one of the better defending teams in the league? please.

And are then now going to slow down their game to play more low post? No

The suns lost a great shooter, good defender, excellent athlete. And in return they got a Tired, Old, Slow, injured, 35 year old guy who can't run the court, can't shoot Free Throws, Can't shoot a 15 foot jumper and can't stay healthy.

Nice Try Eddie but we ain't buying what you are selling!
People said the same thing about Hill, would he be healthy enough, but phoenix has a badass medical staff, and thats worked out well.

The Suns werent trying to move from worst to first in the defensive catagory, they were giving up 103 points a game already, but now at least they have a big body under the basket that allows Amare to defend his natural position, stay out of fould trouble, and be a better weak side shot blocker, which he is much better at.

People can laugh all they want about Shaq, but he still demands a double, and if you really think he cant give Tim just as much trouble as Kurt Thomas, your a fool. Guys like Tony and Manu also will want nothing to do with driving a Shaq filled lane either. Shaq had no reason to motivated in Miami, he does now.

And jesus already, would you fuckers stop overating Marion? As Spur fans, how many games in the playoffs have we watched were marion completely disappeared? Did he ever truly scare anyone when the Suns played the Spurs?
Dude is about to turn 30, it's not like he is some badass young dude with tons of potential. Shit, he was only averaging 1 more point and 2 more freakin rebounds in 8 more minutes, big freakin loss. Suns werent going anywhere with Marion, Kerr had nothing to lose in this deal.

And :lol at Cry Havoc for claiming that Hill's fucking up his ankles is genetic.

T Park

02-07-2008, 01:01 PM

That being said he has one of the highest basketball IQ's I've listened to

Is this the same Eddie Johnson who said Manu Ginobili is "overrated and I don't see what all the fuss is about" during a game against the Suns back in 05?

mavsluva

02-07-2008, 01:01 PM

It appears that Shaq should have participated in his little "Fat Camp" TV show that aired last year. Apparently he missed his own personal message that he was attempting to send to the obese kids in North America.

mardigan

02-07-2008, 01:04 PM

T Park

02-07-2008, 01:12 PM

mardigan

02-07-2008, 01:14 PM

Yeah, if the Spurs don't acquire an athletic big or a big bruiser Thomas or Brown type, they are gonna have to pray that Elson is enough of a hack or body to body him up. Wich, in its self, is the most frightening thing I've ever typed.
For sure, it's terrifying to me thinking of a motivated Shaq in the playoffs being guarded by Elson and Oberto. They would be in foul trouble in 5 minutes, then what? Bonner and Horry on Shaq or Bonner and Horry on Amare?

sribb43

02-07-2008, 01:37 PM

Actually, the Suns staff says he has already lost some weight and says what ails him will be easy for them to fix, they say he will be fine.

And it already seems that he has rejuvinated the entire team and city, so he is already having an effect without playing.

what else are they going to say, he is fat and out of shape, has bad hip/knees, etc. Of course they are going to try and make themselves look good when talking about the deal....all i can say that if shaq was dogging it in MIA and wasnt as hurt as he claimed, then that would be just sorry bc DWade is bustin his ass playing with that sore knee and shoulder among other nagging injuries

sribb43

02-07-2008, 01:40 PM

"Jacked up?" Don't go throwing medical terms around here. Hey, where did you complete your fellowship in orthopedic surgery? Do you know my doctor?

sribb43, ca. 2006: "Amare will never play like he used to after microfracture surgery aggrevates [sic] his jacked up knee."

um, ok...... :donkey

mardigan

02-07-2008, 01:40 PM

what else are they going to say, he is fat and out of shape, has bad hip/knees, etc. Of course they are going to try and make themselves look good when talking about the deal....all i can say that if shaq was dogging it in MIA and wasnt as hurt as he claimed, then that would be just sorry bc DWade is bustin his ass playing with that sore knee and shoulder among other nagging injuries
Ok your right, the medical staff (who are arguably the best in the NBA) looked at him, saw he couldnt play, told Kerr that, Kerr said fuck that, whats 40 mill to Sarver?, and did the trade anyway.
Dont be a idiot, thats why teams give physicals.
And Wade isnt 36, its a lot easier to run around and bust your ass on a shitty team when your young and take all the shots in an offense.

Xylus

02-07-2008, 01:42 PM

I don't think the Suns would have traded Shawn Marion for Shaq if they didn't believe that Shaq was in good shape and that the medical staff could improve his health by the playoffs.

sribb43

02-07-2008, 01:42 PM

Ok your right, the medical staff looked at him, saw he couldnt play, told Kerr that, Kerr said fuck that, whats 40 mill to Sarver?, and did the trade anyway.
Dont be a idiot, thats why teams give physicals.
And Wade isnt 36, its a lot easier to run around and bust your ass on a shitty team when your young and take all the shots in an offense.

im just saying he has been hurt all year and the past few seasons...for him to all of a sudden start playing well and be heathly would be kind of shaddy, but thats just my opinion

wildchild

02-07-2008, 01:46 PM

For sure, it's terrifying to me thinking of a motivated Shaq in the playoffs being guarded by Elson and Oberto. They would be in foul trouble in 5 minutes, then what? Bonner and Horry on Shaq or Bonner and Horry on Amare?

You should have more confidence in our guys. Oberto played so well against Shaq when we visited Miami last year and Elson played very well against Shaq in the game 1 this season.

Don't worry. Shaq isn't the key. I'm sorry for the Suns fans but he is done.

mardigan

02-07-2008, 01:46 PM

im just saying he has been hurt all year and the past few seasons...for him to all of a sudden start playing well and be heathly would be kind of shaddy, but thats just my opinion
Its a lot easier to play hard when you have an actual team around you. Its not Shaq's fault that the stupid ass Heat didnt address his aging by putting players around him to tale the pressure off. Its kind of hard to want to play hard and come back from injury quickly when your offense consists of running down the court to watch Jason Williams or Ricky Davis jack up a shot and have to run back.
Jason fucking Williams
Its easy to disregard Shaq, but the guy can still play when healthy, and his averages are still overall better than 70% of the centers in the league.

whottt

02-07-2008, 01:47 PM

Where on earth are people getting this idea that Elson can guard Shaq?

Elscon can't guard him...and neither can Horry. Shaq will demolish them. They are too light to defend him.

Duncan is the only guy on this team with the mass to do it....Bonner might the only other guy with a build to pull minutes on Shaq, but even he's really too light to do it.

The ugliest site I have ever seen was watching Horry try and defend Shaq VS LA in 04....you are asking too much of Horry when you ask him to do that.

The guy puffed himself up to the max just to be able to defend a guy Duncan's size. Shaq is out of his league...and Elson is lighter than Horry is.

Elson may resemble Drob physically but Drob went 250+ and had sick upperbody strength that was probably close to Shaq's....Elson weighs about 230.

Go out and try and guard a semi truck on the highway...then you'll have some kind of idea of what you are expecting of Elson.

mardigan

02-07-2008, 01:49 PM

You should have more confidence in our guys. Oberto played so well against Shaq when we visited Miami last year and Elson played very well against Shaq in the game 1 this season.

Don't worry. Shaq isn't the key. I'm sorry for the Suns fans but he is done.
Not to talk shit, but Oberto has never played well against Shaq. All he does is get in foul trouble and try to flop, I think he might actually be scared of Shaq.
I love my Spurs, but Im not going to pretend that the the centers they have on their rosters can hold up even against the corpse of Shaq.

K-State Spur

02-07-2008, 01:59 PM

Cry Havoc

02-07-2008, 02:18 PM

Not to talk shit, but Oberto has never played well against Shaq. All he does is get in foul trouble and try to flop, I think he might actually be scared of Shaq.
I love my Spurs, but Im not going to pretend that the the centers they have on their rosters can hold up even against the corpse of Shaq.

Yes, because Shaq has been SO dominant against lesser players this year and last season.

Wtf? He's THAT dominant but he's averaging 15 and 7-8 in the shit-filled Eastern Conference? Do you really think Shaq is going to go from coasting and gaining weight to ROAR APE-ZILLA 300 pounds flat Shaq that scores 47 and 25 a game on us? You CANNOT loaf for two years and then all of a sudden dominate the NBA. Shaq's reactions are slowed. He's not nearly as mobile. He doesn't have any lift, and he doesn't have NEARLY the quickness that allowed him to spin past other defenders when he was giving the Spurs fits during the Lakers title run. Shaq almost set the record for consecutive foul-outs this year because he's a walking charge. He does not have the ability to get by defenders, so he goes over them. Why would a Spurs defense that's tops in the league every year be scared of THAT?

Yeah, right, Shaq can just kick it in anytime he feels like it. That's why the Heat got swept by the Bulls last year in the playoffs. He said he was going to dominate then, too, if memory serves.

What's he going to do against the Spurs in 24 minutes? What's he going to do hurt? What's he going to do standing at one end of the court while the Suns try to run with him?

Who are the Suns going to send out to guard Manu, Parker, Barry now? They have NO defensive answers for a team that already SUCKED on defense.

And as for Marion being overrated. Well, let's see. He's averaging 16/10 and 2 assists to go with 2 steals and 1.5 blocks this year. He drains the three and is the Suns best fast-break weapon. Yeah, you're right, SO overrated for the 3rd option on the team. And... oh yes, he plays defense as well. Because I said he deserves the MVP, right? :lol

I can't believe many fans on this site have forgotten that defense doesn't always show up on a stat column, and therefore think Marion is overrated. It's incredible. He's THE hustle player for the Suns.

I think the Spurs should sign George Gervin. I mean, he's torched the Lakers in their meetings every year, so how the hell would they guard him? He can hit any shot he wants and he's got an amazing repertoire of shots. It makes perfect sense that there are maybe 2 players in the league that could even hope of containing him. While we're at it, let's bring D-Rob back. He scored 71 in a SINGLE GAME. Who's going to stop him? Let's sign Hakeem too -- then we'd have the best frontcourt in NBA history!

But keep on talking shit to us, Mardigan. You are a Spurs fan, aren't you?

mardigan

02-07-2008, 02:27 PM

Yes, because Shaq has been SO dominant against lesser players this year and last season.

Wtf? He's THAT dominant but he's averaging 15 and 7-8 in the shit-filled Eastern Conference? Do you really think Shaq is going to go from coasting and gaining weight to ROAR APE-ZILLA 300 pounds flat Shaq that scores 47 and 25 a game on us? You CANNOT loaf for two years and then all of a sudden dominate the NBA. Shaq's reactions are slowed. He's not nearly as mobile. He doesn't have any lift, and he doesn't have NEARLY the quickness that allowed him to spin past other defenders when he was giving the Spurs fits during the Lakers title run.

Yeah, right, Shaq can just kick it in anytime he feels like it. That's why the Heat got swept by the Bulls last year in the playoffs. He said he was going to dominate then, too, if memory serves.

What's he going to do against the Spurs in 24 minutes? What's he going to do hurt? What's he going to do standing at one end of the court while the Suns try to run with him?

Who are the Suns going to send out to guard Manu, Parker, Barry now? They have NO defense answers.

But keep on talking shit to us, Mardigan. You are a Spurs fan, aren't you?
Dont be such a little bitch, who have I talked shit to?

About his scoring, why dont you do me a favor and go look at his shot attempts. A player averaging 14 points on 58% shooting probably should get more than 10 shot attempts a game.

And as I stated previously, 19 and 9 in the PO's last year with a hurt Wade and no point guard was obviously Shaq's fault for getting swept.

You dont need five guys to run a fast break either. 4 is good enough.

His skills are declining, but I think he can still put enough effort to make one more run with the best point guard he's ever played with.

Am I a Spurs fan? :lol

The final act of a man with shit arguments, question his loyalty right? I'm just not a blind homer like 80 percent of this board is.

Ask Yao if he can still ball, as he was dominated by Shaq pretty easily earlier this year.

T Park

02-07-2008, 02:29 PM

Yeah Shaq has game and with Kerr saying the doctors figured out his lift and jump problems, that pretty much seals the Spurs needing to get a big big guy to guard him.

Or at least, attempt to...

BillsCarnage

02-07-2008, 03:27 PM

im just saying he has been hurt all year and the past few seasons...for him to all of a sudden start playing well and be heathly would be kind of shaddy, but thats just my opinion

Hmmm, many ppl - especially this board - said the same about Hill.

whottt

02-07-2008, 03:30 PM

this isn't 2004 shaq. he can't dunk over the top of people anymore. just stay between him and the hoop, and his lack of touch around the hoop is escalated.

that said, i don't love the match-up of elson or horry on shaq. but there are worse or lighter defenders than those two who have had some success against shaq the last couple years.

Um...Shaq is still a bull, he can still knock them out of the way just by shrugging....and do it so effortlessly he won't get called for a foul while doing it. In fact he's probably better at that now.

And for a guy who can't score at a hight PCT worth a shit he sure is shooting at a nice PCT....his FG% is 58!%. That would seem to indicate he's still pretty effective around the basket.

Indazone

02-07-2008, 03:32 PM

BillsCarnage

02-07-2008, 03:36 PM

Miami Heat blows their team up. Suns make an idiot trade. Everyone in the West is going to beat on them now. Utah, Rockets, Lakers, Spurs, Warriors. Suns are going to get beatdown so bad it isn't even funny.

This post reminds me of...

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f301/flippy70/elephant20shit.jpg

Cry Havoc

02-07-2008, 04:37 PM

Dont be such a little bitch, who have I talked shit to?

Well, let's see here:

Not to talk shit....

And then there's:

Dont be a idiot,

And the ever classy:

And jesus already, would you fuckers stop overating Marion?

Yep. Man. You sure do respect other people enough to have civilized discourse with them. :rolleyes

Am I a Spurs fan? :lol

The final act of a man with shit arguments, question his loyalty right? I'm just not a blind homer like 80 percent of this board is.

Ask Yao if he can still ball, as he was dominated by Shaq pretty easily earlier this year.

My comment had nothing to do with the arguments being presented. Be a little more condescending in your arguments, kay? Thaaanks.

The Suns will still make a run, but they will NOT win the title (IMO). They match up horribly on defense with the Spurs now. If Shaq doesn't rekindle his 03-04 self with a lot of mobility, they are going to have zero post rotation defense. A slow Shaq and an invisible Amare to stop penetration? What are the Suns going to do to limit the Spurs in the open court now? They have no one to get back and guard.

There is no evidence to suggest that Shaq will be a success in Phoenix. A training team declaring he is fit is light-years away from a player stepping into a completely unfamiliar system which has traditionally not emphasized his style, fitting in, gelling with the players, and producing numbers in extremely limited time. And this is all assuming he's 100% healthy from here on out. Yeah, good luck with that.

Joe Schmoogins

02-07-2008, 05:38 PM

The addition of Shaq and his great passing out of the post will allow the NBA’s best three-point shooter to spot up for periods during the game and punish defenses for doubling.

http://hoopshype.com/blogs/johnson/index.php/2008/02/07/why-phoenix-made-the-deal-for-shaq/

Please quit disrespecting my man BARRY!

Also, EJ had a lot of REALLY lame points...

SpurOutofTownFan

02-07-2008, 05:51 PM

Cry Havoc

02-07-2008, 06:03 PM

Not only could they have signed Thomas, but they could have still traded Marion to get another 3 like AK-47. Or traded him for a couple of great position players.

Xylus

02-07-2008, 06:04 PM

Trading Kurt Thomas was one of the dumbest things the Suns have ever done. Ever.

Joe Schmoogins

02-07-2008, 06:11 PM

Spurs have never won back-to-back championships

The last time this scenario came to bear, the Dallas Mavericks used a physical combination of Erick Dampier and DeSagana Diop to wear down the Amare-less Suns to move on to the Finals against Shaq and the Heat. The Spurs have showed signs of wear and tear and the Suns do not want to miss out again on this opportunity.

Operation:Fly Under Radar is now in full effect

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd73/skwix99/dr.jpg
"Throw me a friggin bone here"

diego

02-07-2008, 06:34 PM

of course there are advantages to gaining shaq, anybody who questions that is silly. the problem for the suns is the disadvantages of losing marion- namely, rebounding, 3pt shooting, and minutes (for all the deficencies in marion's game, he was quite the ironman, while shaq has been hampered by injuries for at least 5 years now). the nash/amare/shaq pick and roll will be deadly, but on defense they are going to get burned by the p&r too. shaq was never really so much a good defender, but more of an intimidator. and we have two guys who are not afraid of him in the least in TD and manu.

the main issue though is health and how much he'll be able to play for them. it will be very interesting to see how all this plays out. i'll be surprised to see shaq play more than 30mpg.

T Park

02-07-2008, 06:49 PM

Trading Kurt Thomas was one of the dumbest things the Suns have ever done. Ever.

Can't argue with that :lol

conqueso

02-07-2008, 07:09 PM

You dont need five guys to run a fast break either. 4 is good enough.

While it's true that it doesn't take 5 guys to fast break, that's truly a retarded comment to make. Marion was, without a doubt, their best fast break finisher. They have given that away in return for someone who absolutely cannot be a part of the primary break, and might not even be a part of the secondary break. So while the Suns can still possibly fast break because "it doesn't take 5 guys to fast break," their fast break just got a LOT worse because they lost their best fast break finisher and didn't get anyone who can effect anything except the rebound at the very start of the break. So not only have the Suns picked up a worse defensive rebounder and a much worse fast break runner, they've given up their best fast break finisher too.

And this is supposed to "improve their running game?" Is this what passes for insightful journalism these days? Shit.

Just admit that you're wrong so we can all move on.

exstatic

02-07-2008, 07:37 PM

It's not his homerism that bothers me, but instead his inveterate retardation. I also find it unbelievable that people think his points are "logical," when they are anything but.

Here's the deal with Shaq. It would be a stretch for Shaq to play more than 24 mpg for the Suns even when healthy because of all the running, which means they're going to have to rely on Diaw and his $9 million (!) contract and Brian Skinner and his multi-colored goatie for most of the remaining 24 mpg. Marion was averaging 36.5 mpg, so that means an extra 12 minutes per game of either Skinner or Diaw, which should be a terrifying prospect for Suns fans.

But even when Shaq is in the game, he doesn't make them that much better. Yes, Shaq and Amare create matchup problems for the Spurs and Mavs and Lakers (until Bynum returns). The Rockets--who matchup up very well with them since Yao can bitch Shaq and Scola performed well against Gasol in international play--aren't an elite team with any chance of going deep into the playoffs. But which one is Dirk going to guard? Which one is Duncan going to guard? That's kind of a pick-your-poison deal, since even though Shaq is like 40 years old, he still weighs ten times his age and is still strong as shit, and banging with him will wear out whoever has to guard him.

Here's the thing though: the Suns have two paths they can follow with Shaq. Either they can try to make him fit in with the Suns' system (which is like the ultimate square peg in a round hole as Hollinger pointed out), or they can change the whole way their team approaches the game to accommodate Shaq. With the first option, Shaq will be pretty much useless, since it takes him :07 Seconds or MORE just to run down to the offensive end of the court...the Suns will have already shot the ball by the time his fat ass joins the play.

With the second option, the Suns do what everyone has been telling them they need to do to push it to a championship next level: slow the tempo down and commit to defense. No doubt this was Kerr's motivation for trading for Shaq; create matchup problems and slow everything WAY the fuck down. While this is a compelling move that is probably a good strategy generally, you would need to do more than trade Marion for Shaq to mold a team committed to defense. First, you would have to give Amare a brain transplant, since his ego won't allow him to play defense if it won't result in a highlight reel dunk. Second, you would need to just bench Nash, because he's a shitty defender to his core. And third and finally, you'd have to fire D'Antoni, because he just couldn't bring himself to grind everything down to a more reasonable, "boring," championship-winning pace.

But if the Suns do try to play more ugly ball with Shaq to utilize his strengths more, they just won't be the same team. For one thing, you don't have to double Shaq anymore because he's old and crippled, and so many of the threes taken by the Suns are wide-open in transition. If they slow down the break, all of those dry up. For another thing, changing the team to suit Shaq's skills moves the team away from a style that suits Nash's skills. He is not a spectacular half court point guard. In fact, he's probably not even one of the top 5 point guards in the league in the half court game. He's a full court, fast-breaking point guard, which is why he went from kinda-All-Star to fucking ridiculous MVP overnight when he moved from Dallas to Phoenix. Even though that Nellie Ball he was playing in Dallas was still fast-paced, it was nothing like the :07 Second or Less Suns, and his effectiveness reflected that.

If Phoenix is content to trade their MVP's domination for MAYBE 16 and 7 out of Shaq, then they should go ahead with this trade. But I don't think they've thought through all the "chemistry" issues thoroughly if they think replacing a whiny Marion with fucking Shaq is going to actually make their team run more smoothly, either on or off the court.

As for this idiot's specific points, I hear the point that better defensive rebounding could speed up the Suns, but it's not like you're getting a big improvement with Shaq in there: Marion averages 10 rpg this year (8.1 defensive rebounds per game), while Shaq only averages 7.8 rpg this year (4.8 defensive rebounds per game). Last year he averaged only 7.4 with 5 defensive boards. Plus, Marion was fast enough and athletic enough to do what DRob did way back in the day, which is grab a defensive board, outlet, and then run the floor so he could be involved in the finish. Shaq cannot do that. So with Shaq, you're getting a guy who's a worse defensive rebounder and much worse fast break runner,

While it's true that it doesn't take 5 guys to fast break, that's truly a retarded comment to make. Marion was, without a doubt, their best fast break finisher. They have given that away in return for someone who absolutely cannot be a part of the primary break, and might not even be a part of the secondary break. So while the Suns can still possibly fast break because "it doesn't take 5 guys to fast break," their fast break just got a LOT worse because they lost their best fast break finisher and didn't get anyone who can't effect anything except the rebound at the very start of the break. So not only have the Suns picked up a worse defensive rebounder and a much worse fast break runner, they've given up their best fast break finisher too.

And this is supposed to "improve their running game?" Is this what passes for insightful journalism these days? Shit.

I agree that they're a more physical team now. BFD. Horry didn't win that series last summer for the Spurs, Timmy D and Amare's ego did. So what if he can't shoulder check Nash for fear of the Big Gorilla's retaliation? And even though Shaq may help clog the paint and make interior scoring more difficult, the next step in his logical chain ignores the fact that the Suns have replaced one of their best jump shooters with a guy who can't make a shot from further than 5 feet out: "That means teams will take more jump shots and the Suns are better at that game than anyone in the league." Is it fair to just assume that the Suns will still be the best in the league at the jump shooting game now that their speed on the break has taken a huge hit and they've lost one of their best jump shooters? Christ, who the fuck decided to give this fool a blog?

I agree with him that teams will have to change the way they guard Amare on the high pick and roll, which is not going to cause some massive upheaval in the league. So they can't double off of Shaq...so what? They'll double off of Barbosa or Bell, which is just about as bad as doubling off of Marion from a three point perspective, so it's not like teams can't apply the same strategy. They just need to add a minor tweak.

As one last point, I think Amare might find it a little more difficult to score in the post with a huge blob like Shaq taking up so much space. Before, with Marion out wide, he had lots of room to work and space to use his athleticism to break free of his defender for a dunk. Now he's got to share that space with the basketball equivalent of the Titanic. And Amare's supposed to become more dominant? WTF?
+1

Cry Havoc

02-07-2008, 07:40 PM

Just admit that you're wrong so we can all move on.

+2

Your summation, though lengthy, is absolutely spot-on.

Still, I can't fault Phoenix for taking a shot. I just think there had to be better out there than Shaq.

callo1

02-07-2008, 09:18 PM

The dominance that we were used to see was not there on a consistent basis.

.../perplexed

What is the definition of dominance now days. How does ZERO Finals appearances equate to dominance.

usckk

02-07-2008, 09:40 PM

I'm still perplexed by the Suns’ trade. High-octane offense requires premium unleaded, not DIESEL. Now, black smoke will engulf us when the Spurs burn them later.

mardigan

02-07-2008, 11:09 PM

Just admit that you're wrong so we can all move on.
Who ever said he would improve their running game? That would be a stupid thing to say. All I said is they would still be able to run, and despite your long informative reply, I'm still pretty sure they will be able to run.

LaMarcus Bryant

02-07-2008, 11:18 PM

I'd be interested to see a list of acquisitions made by teams holding the lead in their conference at the date of the trade during the last 20 seasons.

FromWayDowntown, I'm looking in your direction. :smchode:

T Park

02-07-2008, 11:45 PM

Now, black smoke will engulf us when the Spurs burn them later.

Or if hes on a diet he could be like Bio Diesel and run clean.

Louie Vega

02-08-2008, 01:54 AM

Kerr just following the blueprint from the Spurs. Twin towers part 2. Let Stoudemire have all the glory and let Shaq sit back and play defense.

SirChaz

02-08-2008, 03:10 AM

It's not his homerism that bothers me, but instead his inveterate retardation. I also find it unbelievable that people think his points are "logical," when they are anything but.

Nice ad hominem attack.

Here's the deal with Shaq. It would be a stretch for Shaq to play more than 24 mpg for the Suns even when healthy because of all the running, which means they're going to have to rely on Diaw and his $9 million (!) contract and Brian Skinner and his multi-colored goatie for most of the remaining 24 mpg. Marion was averaging 36.5 mpg, so that means an extra 12 minutes per game of either Skinner or Diaw, which should be a terrifying prospect for Suns fans.

False premise. Shaq does not need to run out on the fast break. 5 man fast breaks are rare. There is no problem with him trailing the play. Plus who is to say Diaw or Skinner has to fill in the remaining minutes Marion played? Marion didn't play center anyway so wouldn't other wing players get a big portion of those minutes?

But even when Shaq is in the game, he doesn't make them that much better. Yes, Shaq and Amare create matchup problems for the Spurs and Mavs and Lakers (until Bynum returns). The Rockets--who matchup up very well with them since Yao can bitch Shaq and Scola performed well against Gasol in international play--aren't an elite team with any chance of going deep into the playoffs. But which one is Dirk going to guard? Which one is Duncan going to guard? That's kind of a pick-your-poison deal, since even though Shaq is like 40 years old, he still weighs ten times his age and is still strong as shit, and banging with him will wear out whoever has to guard him.

Shaq creates space and draws attention on offense and he is a good passer. The Suns space the floor as well as anyone and Shaq helps in that regard.

Here's the thing though: the Suns have two paths they can follow with Shaq. Either they can try to make him fit in with the Suns' system (which is like the ultimate square peg in a round hole as Hollinger pointed out), or they can change the whole way their team approaches the game to accommodate Shaq. With the first option, Shaq will be pretty much useless, since it takes him :07 Seconds or MORE just to run down to the offensive end of the court...the Suns will have already shot the ball by the time his fat ass joins the play.

The Suns have been running much less already this season. They also shoot less trees in transition than they did in previous years. The Suns "style" is already changing and slowing down before Shaq even gets here. They clearly will lose Marion's leak-outs and steals that get them easy baskets but Hill and Barbosa run very well so I expect the fast break to continue when they have opportunities.

If it takes Shaq more than :07 to get down the floor and the Suns score quicker than that then Shaq is running less than anyone on the team and therefore the concerns about him being not being able to run are moot. If they don't score in :07 then they run a set with Shaq in the half court mix. Where is the conflict here?

With the second option, the Suns do what everyone has been telling them they need to do to push it to a championship next level: slow the tempo down and commit to defense. No doubt this was Kerr's motivation for trading for Shaq; create matchup problems and slow everything WAY the fuck down. While this is a compelling move that is probably a good strategy generally, you would need to do more than trade Marion for Shaq to mold a team committed to defense. First, you would have to give Amare a brain transplant, since his ego won't allow him to play defense if it won't result in a highlight reel dunk. Second, you would need to just bench Nash, because he's a shitty defender to his core. And third and finally, you'd have to fire D'Antoni, because he just couldn't bring himself to grind everything down to a more reasonable, "boring," championship-winning pace.

The Suns biggest problem has generally been offensive rebounding. They give up too many second and third shot opportunities. When Kurt Thomas was collecting defensive rebounds, holding teams to one and done, they are an average to decent defensive team. With Shaq boxing out they should be able to improve the defensive rebounding and they should be able to protect the lane better when he is in there. I don't think the issue is slowing the game down because that clearly happens in the playoffs (or anytime they play the Spurs), it is about executing on both sides of the floor. Executing at a fast or slow pace is just as effective even though the Suns prefer the faster pace because other teams don't and they like to attack before the opponent can set the defense.

But if the Suns do try to play more ugly ball with Shaq to utilize his strengths more, they just won't be the same team. For one thing, you don't have to double Shaq anymore because he's old and crippled, and so many of the threes taken by the Suns are wide-open in transition. If they slow down the break, all of those dry up. For another thing, changing the team to suit Shaq's skills moves the team away from a style that suits Nash's skills. He is not a spectacular half court point guard. In fact, he's probably not even one of the top 5 point guards in the league in the half court game. He's a full court, fast-breaking point guard, which is why he went from kinda-All-Star to fucking ridiculous MVP overnight when he moved from Dallas to Phoenix. Even though that Nellie Ball he was playing in Dallas was still fast-paced, it was nothing like the :07 Second or Less Suns, and his effectiveness reflected that.

As I mentioned before the transition threes have pretty much dried up anyway. Mostly because teams have adjusted to them. The Suns will still take open threes if available but they need more options. Are you saying that Nash can't run a half court offense? How about this for a riddle: How many fast break baskets do the suns have on average and what percentage of their points does that comprise?
I don't think the Suns would be the highest scoring team in the league if they couldn't play the half court offense.

If Phoenix is content to trade their MVP's domination for MAYBE 16 and 7 out of Shaq, then they should go ahead with this trade. But I don't think they've thought through all the "chemistry" issues thoroughly if they think replacing a whiny Marion with fucking Shaq is going to actually make their team run more smoothly, either on or off the court.

I don't think you really understand their chemistry issues. Surely not as well as people that are there with the team all the time like the coach and GM and Eddie Johnson are. Eddie Johnson plays poker with the guys on the plane between road games. I think he understands the chemistry of the team better than you.

As for this idiot's specific points, I hear the point that better defensive rebounding could speed up the Suns, but it's not like you're getting a big improvement with Shaq in there: Marion averages 10 rpg this year (8.1 defensive rebounds per game), while Shaq only averages 7.8 rpg this year (4.8 defensive rebounds per game). Last year he averaged only 7.4 with 5 defensive boards. Plus, Marion was fast enough and athletic enough to do what DRob did way back in the day, which is grab a defensive board, outlet, and then run the floor so he could be involved in the finish. Shaq cannot do that. So with Shaq, you're getting a guy who's a worse defensive rebounder and much worse fast break runner,

While it's true that it doesn't take 5 guys to fast break, that's truly a retarded comment to make. Marion was, without a doubt, their best fast break finisher. They have given that away in return for someone who absolutely cannot be a part of the primary break, and might not even be a part of the secondary break. So while the Suns can still possibly fast break because "it doesn't take 5 guys to fast break," their fast break just got a LOT worse because they lost their best fast break finisher and didn't get anyone who can't effect anything except the rebound at the very start of the break. So not only have the Suns picked up a worse defensive rebounder and a much worse fast break runner, they've given up their best fast break finisher too.

No the fast break is not improved by getting rid of Marion but you can't run if you don't have the ball. While Marion was a good rebounder for his size he is not able to keep legitimate centers off the offensive glass and that is probably the single biggest problem the Suns have faced the last few years as I mentioned.

And this is supposed to "improve their running game?" Is this what passes for insightful journalism these days? Shit.

No it will not improve the quality of the running game but it should give them more opportunities.

I agree that they're a more physical team now. BFD. Horry didn't win that series last summer for the Spurs, Timmy D and Amare's ego did. So what if he can't shoulder check Nash for fear of the Big Gorilla's retaliation? And even though Shaq may help clog the paint and make interior scoring more difficult, the next step in his logical chain ignores the fact that the Suns have replaced one of their best jump shooters with a guy who can't make a shot from further than 5 feet out: "That means teams will take more jump shots and the Suns are better at that game than anyone in the league." Is it fair to just assume that the Suns will still be the best in the league at the jump shooting game now that their speed on the break has taken a huge hit and they've lost one of their best jump shooters? Christ, who the fuck decided to give this fool a blog?

Marion was not one of the Suns best jump shooters. He was one of the most inconsistent and unreliable jump shooters on the team. A lot of Marion's points are on offensive rebounds and lob feeds. He can get hot from the corners but I cringe every time he takes a three from the full distance at the top of the 3pt line.

I agree with him that teams will have to change the way they guard Amare on the high pick and roll, which is not going to cause some massive upheaval in the league. So they can't double off of Shaq...so what? They'll double off of Barbosa or Bell, which is just about as bad as doubling off of Marion from a three point perspective, so it's not like teams can't apply the same strategy. They just need to add a minor tweak.

Doubling off the shooters is what the Suns want and Bell and Barbosa are MUCH better percentage outside shooters than Marion.

As one last point, I think Amare might find it a little more difficult to score in the post with a huge blob like Shaq taking up so much space. Before, with Marion out wide, he had lots of room to work and space to use his athleticism to break free of his defender for a dunk. Now he's got to share that space with the basketball equivalent of the Titanic. And Amare's supposed to become more dominant? WTF?

Yes Amare might have less space to operate in the lane but he could have more opportunities to score because of the attention Shaq will draw under the basket. Amare is a very good finisher around the basket and shooter out to 15ft and Shaq is a very good passer.

I will miss Marion's energy and effort but EJ makes some solid points about how this move will benefit the Suns.

Keep telling yourself this is a bad deal for the Suns and EJ is an idiot for saying otherwise. Time will tell.

conqueso

02-08-2008, 09:38 AM

Who ever said he would improve their running game? That would be a stupid thing to say. All I said is they would still be able to run, and despite your long informative reply, I'm still pretty sure they will be able to run.

If your point was merely that they would still be able to run, then it was an inane point. Using that logic, they could trade Barbosa, Amare, and Bell for three old, slow, overweight, injured has-beens, keep Steve Nash, and "still be able to run." Hey, it doesn't take 5 people to run, one person can do it just fine.

But no, I give you more credit than that. You did not make a point so inane. Instead, claiming that "it doesn't take 5 guys to run a fast break," in this context, could only mean that adding Shaq and subtracting Marion will not change the character of the team or prevent them from fast breaking all the time.

My response pointed out that Shaq instead of Marion makes it harder to start the break, harder to continue the break, and harder to finish the break. Now, I'm sure Phoenix will still try to fast break since that's all their players and coach know how to do, but I think that, with Shaq in the game, what once came so easy will now be extremely difficult to execute. The result will be that the Suns will be forced to slow the pace of their offense way down and almost completely abandon 7-seconds-or-less. In other words, I think people (including you) are undervaluing Marion's importance to Phoenix's style of play.

SAGambler

02-08-2008, 11:00 AM

And for a guy who can't score at a hight PCT worth a shit he sure is shooting at a nice PCT....his FG% is 58!%. That would seem to indicate he's still pretty effective around the basket.

Also while only playing in 32 games, he still managed to lead the team in personal fouls. Which tells me the refs aren't letting him get away with bowling people over like they have in the past.

But two of the biggest things I keep seeing is: If he gets healthy and when he is healthy enough to play. I know the med staff has said they can fix him, but it still remains to be seen if in fact they can.

And if they are only planning to get 25 minutes a game out of him, they are paying a hell of a price for a guy that is pretty slow and only good for half a game.

I look for the Suns to sour on him, like the Bulls have on Big Ben.

conqueso

02-08-2008, 11:23 AM

It's not his homerism that bothers me, but instead his inveterate retardation. I also find it unbelievable that people think his points are "logical," when they are anything but.

Nice ad hominem attack.

Oh please. This would only be a valid criticism if I hadn't gone on to provide a 1300 word logical annihilation of his points. If I was basing my argument on the ad hominem, then it would be worth your time pointing out that my response was fallacious. Absent that, you're just diverting attention away from the argument by focusing on a comment that was obviously made for humorous effect.

Here's the deal with Shaq. It would be a stretch for Shaq to play more than 24 mpg for the Suns even when healthy because of all the running, which means they're going to have to rely on Diaw and his $9 million (!) contract and Brian Skinner and his multi-colored goatie for most of the remaining 24 mpg. Marion was averaging 36.5 mpg, so that means an extra 12 minutes per game of either Skinner or Diaw, which should be a terrifying prospect for Suns fans.

False premise. Shaq does not need to run out on the fast break. 5 man fast breaks are rare. There is no problem with him trailing the play. Plus who is to say Diaw or Skinner has to fill in the remaining minutes Marion played? Marion didn't play center anyway so wouldn't other wing players get a big portion of those minutes?

I'm not talking about Shaq running on the fast break; I'm talking about Shaq running at all. When I say that it would be tough for Shaq to play more than 24 minutes "because of all the running," I'm not saying that he would be fast-breaking along with Nash and Amare. The Suns' up tempo game includes more than just the break: they in-bound the ball quickly after every made FG, always push the ball past half court before 21 on the shot, shoot the ball quickly in the half court, and, along with GSW and DEN, have the most possessions per game of any team in the league (average of 96 per game). Even if they didn't fast break once in an entire game, they run at a feverish pace all night. So even if there were no fast breaks for Shaq to participate in, he would still be running far more than he did in Miami, or even in L.A.

Your view on the game and Suns offense is too limited. You fail to consider all the ramifications of playing an up-tempo game, not just the fast break.

And as for Skinner and Diaw, the Suns are 8 deep: the 5 starters, then Barbosa, Diaw and Skinner. Barbosa certainly isn't going to spell Shaq at the 5, and the only players left to do so are Skinner and Diaw. Since Amare can't play 3, and Hill can't play more than ~32-33 per game and stay healthy, Diaw will play more time at the three and Skinner's minutes will increase substantially. Even if Shaq plays 30 per game (which is a HUGE stretch, you must admit), that's still 6 discrepant minutes that someone has to pick up. And whoever it is will clearly be less effective than Marion was in those 6 minutes.

But even when Shaq is in the game, he doesn't make them that much better. Yes, Shaq and Amare create matchup problems for the Spurs and Mavs and Lakers (until Bynum returns). The Rockets--who matchup up very well with them since Yao can bitch Shaq and Scola performed well against Gasol in international play--aren't an elite team with any chance of going deep into the playoffs. But which one is Dirk going to guard? Which one is Duncan going to guard? That's kind of a pick-your-poison deal, since even though Shaq is like 40 years old, he still weighs ten times his age and is still strong as shit, and banging with him will wear out whoever has to guard him.

Shaq creates space and draws attention on offense and he is a good passer. The Suns space the floor as well as anyone and Shaq helps in that regard.

Agreed.

Here's the thing though: the Suns have two paths they can follow with Shaq. Either they can try to make him fit in with the Suns' system (which is like the ultimate square peg in a round hole as Hollinger pointed out), or they can change the whole way their team approaches the game to accommodate Shaq. With the first option, Shaq will be pretty much useless, since it takes him :07 Seconds or MORE just to run down to the offensive end of the court...the Suns will have already shot the ball by the time his fat ass joins the play.

The Suns have been running much less already this season. They also shoot less t[h]rees in transition than they did in previous years. The Suns "style" is already changing and slowing down before Shaq even gets here. They clearly will lose Marion's leak-outs and steals that get them easy baskets but Hill and Barbosa run very well so I expect the fast break to continue when they have opportunities.

If it takes Shaq more than :07 to get down the floor and the Suns score quicker than that then Shaq is running less than anyone on the team and therefore the concerns about him being not being able to run are moot. If they don't score in :07 then they run a set with Shaq in the half court mix. Where is the conflict here?

I agree that the Suns have slowed things down this year, but they haven't fundamentally changed their style of play. They still play the most up-tempo game of any team in the league, and still try to beat teams by scoring as many points as they possibly can, not by trying to hold the other team to as few points as they possibly can. While they're less reckless than they have been in the past, they are still fundamentally using the same strategy, which is to get the most opportunities to score the most points, and they accomplish this by pushing the ball every possession, fast-breaking whenever they can, and shooting with between 20-12 seconds left on the shot.

Comparing Barbosa and Grant fucking Hill's fast-breaking skills with Marion's is absolutely absurd. Barbosa can run the break (as in lead it by dribbling the ball), and Hill can finish okay I guess when he's the third or fourth pass on the break, but neither one of them can lead or finish as well as Marion.

As for the :07, if Shaq doesn't make it down by the time they score, you're right, it's moot. But what if they shoot but don't score in those first few seconds of the possession while Shaq is still trudging his way up the court? With Marion, they had a guy in there who could possibly pull down an offensive board (even though he didn't do that all that often), another guy who the defense had to block out in order to get the defensive rebound. With Shaq slowly trailing and not a part of the play when the shot goes up in seven seconds or less, then there's one less guy to grab an offensive board, one less guy for the defense to worry about (making it harder for Amare or anyone else to grab an offensive board), and one less guy to pester the other team when they get the defensive board and outlet in the back half of the court.

In the other situation when they don't get the shot off in :07 or less, the amount of time it takes for Shaq to get up the court becomes a problem (especially when he's old, out-of-shape, maybe with a nagging little injury, and after he's had to run up and down far more frequently each game than he's ever had to in his career). Phoenix doesn't run an extremely effective half-court offense. Now, it's tough to predict what offense they will eventually end up running in the half-court now that Shaq is in the mix, but it will definitely be a huge break from the style they have always played.

Consider a situation like this: how many times have you seen the Suns make 7 passes in the half-court on one possession, running the clock down to 3 seconds, finding the best open shot to take? The Spurs do this pretty regularly (a couple of times per game), but the Suns hardly ever do it. That's because their discipline and patience in the half-court is not very refined. That's not to say that they couldn't possibly do it, that's just to say that they don't, and there's no reason to believe that they could do it very well. With Shaq in there in the situations you are talking about, that discipline and patience are required for the offense to run effectively, especially since Shaq is no longer so dominant in the post. The Suns have never in the Nash era run an inside-out half-court offense, but Shaq's skill set demands that you run that type of offense. The way the Suns are composed and coached, I don't think this type of offense suits their abilities.

With the second option, the Suns do what everyone has been telling them they need to do to push it to a championship next level: slow the tempo down and commit to defense. No doubt this was Kerr's motivation for trading for Shaq; create matchup problems and slow everything WAY the fuck down. While this is a compelling move that is probably a good strategy generally, you would need to do more than trade Marion for Shaq to mold a team committed to defense. First, you would have to give Amare a brain transplant, since his ego won't allow him to play defense if it won't result in a highlight reel dunk. Second, you would need to just bench Nash, because he's a shitty defender to his core. And third and finally, you'd have to fire D'Antoni, because he just couldn't bring himself to grind everything down to a more reasonable, "boring," championship-winning pace.

The Suns biggest problem has generally been offensive rebounding. They give up too many second and third shot opportunities. When Kurt Thomas was collecting defensive rebounds, holding teams to one and done, they are an average to decent defensive team. With Shaq boxing out they should be able to improve the defensive rebounding and they should be able to protect the lane better when he is in there. I don't think the issue is slowing the game down because that clearly happens in the playoffs (or anytime they play the Spurs), it is about executing on both sides of the floor. Executing at a fast or slow pace is just as effective even though the Suns prefer the faster pace because other teams don't and they like to attack before the opponent can set the defense.

I agree with most of this comment, except that part about "executing at a fast or slow pace is just as effective," because the Suns do not execute better at a slow pace, hence why they beat the shit out of everyone in the league except the teams that either play fast better than they do (e.g. Spurs in '05) or force them to play slow (Spurs in '07).

And with Shaq, it's not just about "slowing the pace down," because you're right, when KT was in the game or during the playoffs, the pace does slow down. With Shaq though, the pace doesn't just slow down, it grinds to a halt, unless the Suns are willing to play 4-on-5 in the :07 or less paradigm. This is a tough thought to describe, but with Shaq in this second option, it's not just like the Suns' usual fundamental style of play is turned down a notch or two, it's like they're playing a completely different fundamental style of play.

But if the Suns do try to play more ugly ball with Shaq to utilize his strengths more, they just won't be the same team. For one thing, you don't have to double Shaq anymore because he's old and crippled, and so many of the threes taken by the Suns are wide-open in transition. If they slow down the break, all of those dry up. For another thing, changing the team to suit Shaq's skills moves the team away from a style that suits Nash's skills. He is not a spectacular half court point guard. In fact, he's probably not even one of the top 5 point guards in the league in the half court game. He's a full court, fast-breaking point guard, which is why he went from kinda-All-Star to fucking ridiculous MVP overnight when he moved from Dallas to Phoenix. Even though that Nellie Ball he was playing in Dallas was still fast-paced, it was nothing like the :07 Second or Less Suns, and his effectiveness reflected that.

As I mentioned before the transition threes have pretty much dried up anyway. Mostly because teams have adjusted to them. The Suns will still take open threes if available but they need more options. Are you saying that Nash can't run a half court offense? How about this for a riddle: How many fast break baskets do the suns have on average and what percentage of their points does that comprise?
I don't think the Suns would be the highest scoring team in the league if they couldn't play the half court offense.

I wouldn't say the transition threes have pretty much dried up. They probably don't take as many as Golden State does, but in the games I've seen this season, they still do it, enough to make Spurs fans cringe (since we've all been brainwashed by Pop to view transition threes as evil).

And yes, I'm saying that Nash isn't all that great of a point guard in the half-court offense. Not that he can't run it at all or that he's useless, just that he's not the best point guard in the game when it comes to that facet of being a point guard. In fact, not even top 5 in the league in that category.

And here's the answer to your riddle: The teams with the most fast-break points per game score the most points per game. Take last year for instance. The teams with the top PPG were, in order: Phoenix, Golden State and Denver. The teams with the top fast break PPG were, in order: Golden State, Phoenix, and Denver (see http://www.82games.com/fastbreakpoints.htm). That same year, the Suns outscored the other team 51 out of 64 times when they scored more fast break points than the other team. So it appears as if there is a direct correlation, at least for the Suns, between fast break points and total points.

SHAZAM!!!!

If Phoenix is content to trade their MVP's domination for MAYBE 16 and 7 out of Shaq, then they should go ahead with this trade. But I don't think they've thought through all the "chemistry" issues thoroughly if they think replacing a whiny Marion with fucking Shaq is going to actually make their team run more smoothly, either on or off the court.

I don't think you really understand their chemistry issues. Surely not as well as people that are there with the team all the time like the coach and GM and Eddie Johnson are. Eddie Johnson plays poker with the guys on the plane between road games. I think he understands the chemistry of the team better than you.

Since you're so keen on trying to point out my logical "fallacies," here's one for you: appeal to authority. As if Eddie Johnson and the coach and GM are necessarily better able to determine what is better for their chemistry than I am! They certainly have more information, but information is not directly correlated to correctness, especially when it's in the hands of a clearly intellectually inferior journalist, a one-trick-pony coach, and a first year untested and unproven GM.

As for this idiot's specific points, I hear the point that better defensive rebounding could speed up the Suns, but it's not like you're getting a big improvement with Shaq in there: Marion averages 10 rpg this year (8.1 defensive rebounds per game), while Shaq only averages 7.8 rpg this year (4.8 defensive rebounds per game). Last year he averaged only 7.4 with 5 defensive boards. Plus, Marion was fast enough and athletic enough to do what DRob did way back in the day, which is grab a defensive board, outlet, and then run the floor so he could be involved in the finish. Shaq cannot do that. So with Shaq, you're getting a guy who's a worse defensive rebounder and much worse fast break runner,

While it's true that it doesn't take 5 guys to fast break, that's truly a retarded comment to make. Marion was, without a doubt, their best fast break finisher. They have given that away in return for someone who absolutely cannot be a part of the primary break, and might not even be a part of the secondary break. So while the Suns can still possibly fast break because "it doesn't take 5 guys to fast break," their fast break just got a LOT worse because they lost their best fast break finisher and didn't get anyone who can't effect anything except the rebound at the very start of the break. So not only have the Suns picked up a worse defensive rebounder and a much worse fast break runner, they've given up their best fast break finisher too.

No the fast break is not improved by getting rid of Marion but you can't run if you don't have the ball. While Marion was a good rebounder for his size he is not able to keep legitimate centers off the offensive glass and that is probably the single biggest problem the Suns have faced the last few years as I mentioned.

Well, the stats I pulled out show that Shaq is a worse defensive rebounder and a worse overall rebounder than Marion was, while playing for a team where his cohort in the post got fewer rebounds than Amare does. So even if Shaq can keep "legitimate centers" off the offensive glass, Marion doesn't guard centers (for one), Marion is a better defensive rebounder than Shaq statistically (for two), and Marion is a better overall rebounder than Shaq (for three!).

I agree that they're a more physical team now. BFD. Horry didn't win that series last summer for the Spurs, Timmy D and Amare's ego did. So what if he can't shoulder check Nash for fear of the Big Gorilla's retaliation? And even though Shaq may help clog the paint and make interior scoring more difficult, the next step in his logical chain ignores the fact that the Suns have replaced one of their best jump shooters with a guy who can't make a shot from further than 5 feet out: "That means teams will take more jump shots and the Suns are better at that game than anyone in the league." Is it fair to just assume that the Suns will still be the best in the league at the jump shooting game now that their speed on the break has taken a huge hit and they've lost one of their best jump shooters? Christ, who the fuck decided to give this fool a blog?

Marion was not one of the Suns best jump shooters. He was one of the most inconsistent and unreliable jump shooters on the team. A lot of Marion's points are on offensive rebounds and lob feeds. He can get hot from the corners but I cringe every time he takes a three from the full distance at the top of the 3pt line.

Agreed on Marion in part. Go here (http://www.nba.com/hotzones/popup.html) and select Marion from last season and you can see that he shot .678 around the basket, and took 51% of his total shots from inside 4 feet (547 of 1071). However, to say that he's not a good jump shooter in general is going a little too far. He was 91-199 (.457) from 4-15 feet, which, when compared to Shaq's 19-65 (.292) from 4-15 feet, illustrates the point I was trying to make. I agree that Marion is an inconsistent long-range shooter, but as far as all around jump-shooting, he's not that bad.

I agree with him that teams will have to change the way they guard Amare on the high pick and roll, which is not going to cause some massive upheaval in the league. So they can't double off of Shaq...so what? They'll double off of Barbosa or Bell, which is just about as bad as doubling off of Marion from a three point perspective, so it's not like teams can't apply the same strategy. They just need to add a minor tweak.

Doubling off the shooters is what the Suns want and Bell and Barbosa are MUCH better percentage outside shooters than Marion.

I don't think I made my point clear. Obviously Bell and Barbosa are statistically better 3P shooters than Marion. In the past, teams would double off of Marion on three point line when he was ball-side. Now, they will rotate the double team to Amare, leaving Hill or Barbosa or Bell open, whoever is on the weak side. I see an open weak side Hill/Barbosa/Bell as about as threatening when Amare is rolling to the hoop as an open ball side Marion, especially with a great big Shaq in between Amare and the open shooter. But that's up for debate.

As one last point, I think Amare might find it a little more difficult to score in the post with a huge blob like Shaq taking up so much space. Before, with Marion out wide, he had lots of room to work and space to use his athleticism to break free of his defender for a dunk. Now he's got to share that space with the basketball equivalent of the Titanic. And Amare's supposed to become more dominant? WTF?

Yes Amare might have less space to operate in the lane but he could have more opportunities to score because of the attention Shaq will draw under the basket. Amare is a very good finisher around the basket and shooter out to 15ft and Shaq is a very good passer.

Regardless of whether Amare is a very good finisher, my argument is specifically commenting on the fact that he might not be able to use his finishing skills (which are predicated on having room to use his athleticism to out-maneuver his defender) when there's a big fat dump in the lane next to him.

And regardless of whether Shaq is a good passer, his passing will be for naught if he can't command a double team, which he really can't anymore.

I will miss Marion's energy and effort but EJ makes some solid points about how this move will benefit the Suns.

Barely any of the points he made were solid, definitely not enough to make his argument correct by a preponderance of the points.

Keep telling yourself this is a bad deal for the Suns and EJ is an idiot for saying otherwise. Time will tell.

Keep telling yourself that your team didn't just make one of the most illogical and ill-conceived trades in the history of the NBA, especially considering how nasty they were with Marion and how Shaq's health is a ticking time bomb. And you're right, only time will tell.

mathbzh

02-08-2008, 11:27 AM

I really don't know what to expect from Shaq... He looked old, hurt, not motivated...
But is still able to put 26pt/14rbds on Yao and 20/6 on Howard in two back to back games in november. When motivated he his still effective and now he will be surrounded with great shooters and a dominant inside scorer if he is healthy enough and if the Suns can find some chemistry (2 big if), it could still be very effective.

The suns loss in Marion an inconsistent shooter who can't create is shot and an overrated defender who was almost useless against the Spurs (not even capable of guarding Parker).

A colateral effect of the trade is to make room from Diaw. If he can co back anywhere near the level he played the 2006 PO, The suns will not miss Marion too much.

Only question I have is who will guard Parker? Nash?

tmtcsc

02-08-2008, 12:06 PM

....we need a plan....

Here's a plan:

Projected Playoffs -

1.Spurs
2.Lakers
3.Jazz
4.Mavs
5.Hornets
6.Suns
7.Warriors
8.Nuggets

Spurs/Nuggets - Spurs

Mavs/Hornets- Hornets

Spurs/Hornets - Spurs

Lakers/Warriors - Lakers

Jazz/Suns - Jazz

Jazz/Lakers - Jazz

Spurs/Jazz - SPURS (WC Champs)

mardigan

02-08-2008, 01:18 PM

If your point was merely that they would still be able to run, then it was an inane point. Using that logic, they could trade Barbosa, Amare, and Bell for three old, slow, overweight, injured has-beens, keep Steve Nash, and "still be able to run." Hey, it doesn't take 5 people to run, one person can do it just fine.

But no, I give you more credit than that. You did not make a point so inane. Instead, claiming that "it doesn't take 5 guys to run a fast break," in this context, could only mean that adding Shaq and subtracting Marion will not change the character of the team or prevent them from fast breaking all the time.

My response pointed out that Shaq instead of Marion makes it harder to start the break, harder to continue the break, and harder to finish the break. Now, I'm sure Phoenix will still try to fast break since that's all their players and coach know how to do, but I think that, with Shaq in the game, what once came so easy will now be extremely difficult to execute. The result will be that the Suns will be forced to slow the pace of their offense way down and almost completely abandon 7-seconds-or-less. In other words, I think people (including you) are undervaluing Marion's importance to Phoenix's style of play.
And I think everyone on this board is overating one of the most overated players in NBA history.

Rummpd

02-08-2008, 01:20 PM

Peter D. Rumm MD Said,
February 8, 2008 @ 1:17 pm

So the Spurs have never won back to back championships - big friggin deal, they are still by far the most complete and savy team in the W and can play any style.

They did not repeat in 2000 due only to loss of Duncan and had the sublime 0.4 shot by Fisher. They also had to face Shaq and Kobe together for several years and no one in West as strong as that combo when Shaq was truly Shaq.

Spurs per Burns of SI still the creme of crop in West and the gap may be greater than a lot of analysts think and next year have 13 million coming off cap and add a great defending big man in Tiago Splitter - better for their system than Gasol.

mavs>spurs2

02-08-2008, 01:27 PM

Shaq is done.

fat (but down from peak obesity), outta shape, badly foul prone, injury prone, but these clowns make him out to be still the 30PT/12RB Shaq of 2000-2003.

When was Shaq ever obese? When I hear obese, I think of your average 5ft 2 300 pound Mexican woman from San Antonio. Shaq could ideally lose 10-15 pounds to take a load off his knees, but comon the guy's a world class athlete I don't follow on all the "fat" comments.

conqueso

02-08-2008, 02:01 PM

And I think everyone on this board is overating one of the most overated players in NBA history.

I have to agree with you that Shawn Marion as a player with his skills is overrated, but I still think his importance to the way the Suns play is extremely undervalued. It's like Steve Nash: I think his skills as a player are very overrated, but his importance to the way the Suns play is immeasurable, but unlike Marion, is universally recognized.

Cry Havoc

02-08-2008, 02:19 PM

And I think everyone on this board is overating one of the most overated players in NBA history.

This was the guy you Suns fans were bragging about because you finally found a player on your roster that could guard Tony Parker. I never heard anything about him being so overrated until the day you traded him.

conqueso

02-08-2008, 02:40 PM

txstr1986

02-08-2008, 02:57 PM

I love how he mentions the perception that the "suns are becoming vulnerable". Last I saw they never won a championship so they were always "vulnerable".

m33p0

02-08-2008, 03:04 PM

Here's a plan:

Projected Playoffs -

1.Spurs
2.Lakers
3.Jazz
4.Mavs
5.Hornets
6.Suns
7.Warriors
8.Nuggets

Spurs/Nuggets - Spurs

Mavs/Hornets- Hornets

Spurs/Hornets - Spurs

Lakers/Warriors - Lakers

Jazz/Suns - Jazz

Jazz/Lakers - Jazz

Spurs/Jazz - SPURS (WC Champs)

Spurs/whoever - SPURS (NBA Champs)

hmmm.... i like that plan. :toast

Slomo

02-08-2008, 04:18 PM

http://www.cikava.com/gallery/albums/Photoshop_madness/Classroom.jpg

mathbzh

02-08-2008, 04:42 PM

This was the guy you Suns fans were bragging about because you finally found a player on your roster that could guard Tony Parker. I never heard anything about him being so overrated until the day you traded him.

Marion forced to guard TP for Nash is worthless on defense was maybe the best thing that happened to the Spurs.
Marion is a decent defender at any position... but he should never guard an ultra quick PG.

Cry Havoc

02-08-2008, 05:10 PM

Marion forced to guard TP for Nash is worthless on defense was maybe the best thing that happened to the Spurs.
Marion is a decent defender at any position... but he should never guard an ultra quick PG.

That's precisely my point. Their defenders are SO bad that they have to revert to guarding him with their SF/PF?

Well, now what? Marion has been traded. Who the heck are they going to slow down Parker with? It's already been demonstrated that Bell cannot guard him. Are they just planning to let Tony penetrate whenever he wants? If so, the Suns better rotate quickly on defe-HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, sorry, I couldn't keep that going there.

Yuixafun

02-08-2008, 08:23 PM

Or he realized his team sucked ass, had no players, had no cap room, and had an aging center with a big contract who he didnt want to see go out like that.

I concur.

The frustration of losing constantly with no light at the end of the tunnel obviously caused friction between Riley and Shaq. There have been reports of their relationship deteriorating but I feel it had more to do with the teams current freel fall more than anything personal between the two.

The arrival of Shaq two years ago plus the superlative play of D. Wade and the supporting cast of 15 strong is the reason why the Heat won their first championship. Miami will be grateful for what Shaq was able to bring for many years.

But it was a faustian bargain, and the Heat were paying the price for it this year.

Yet somehow, the moon and the stars and the Phoenix Suns aligned, and the Heat pulled a Houdini.

It's remarkable how things have played out. They bought Shaq's services for 2 and half years, won a championship, then get a one of a kind talent in Marion back while slipping Shaq's albatross contract from their neck.

And even though this was a masterful stroke by Riley he did Shaq right. He sent him to a team where he could be succesful. Where he has one more chance to be the guy that pushes a team to a title.

I'm hearing a lot of chatter about what the hell were they thinking, this trade will never work etc etc. when what they need to do is appreciate that shit is going down this year trade wise, sit back and enjoy.

We watch basketball to be entertained. And are you not entertained/elated/excited/intrigued etc?? After all the preseason scandal/off the court issues with players (damn night clubs).. We start the year off with the Celtics scorching start with Garnett/Pierce/Allen making a run at the Bulls record of wins, the Magic's hot start and Dwight Howards nasty manifesting, the Blazers going off despite losing Oden before he even plays one regular season game.. Chris Paul and the Hornets, Lebron, Miami's descent, Detriot's rebirth, the Spur's repeat?

And then an innocent, albeit shrewd trade... the Jazz pick up Kyle Korver.. and the arms race in the West erupts. The Lakers get Pau Gasol for table scraps, the Suns unplug from the Matrix and toss the die with Shaq. Lol.. The Spurs pick up Mighty Mouse. This feels so weird, and maybe a little orchestrated. Like some plot twist thrown at us to set up a suprise ending.. this flurry of high profile players being dealt.. and I still have the nagging suspicion Dallas will pull the trigger on a trade before long.

conqueso

02-08-2008, 08:33 PM

I concur.

The frustration of losing constantly with no light at the end of the tunnel obviously caused friction between Riley and Shaq. There have been reports of their relationship deteriorating but I feel it had more to do with the teams current freel fall more than anything personal between the two.

The arrival of Shaq two years ago plus the superlative play of D. Wade and the supporting cast of 15 strong is the reason why the Heat won their first championship. Miami will be grateful for what Shaq was able to bring for many years.

But it was a faustian bargain, and the Heat were paying the price for it this year.

Yet somehow, the moon and the stars and the Phoenix Suns aligned, and the Heat pulled a Houdini.

It's remarkable how things have played out. They bought Shaq's services for 2 and half years, won a championship, then get a one of a kind talent in Marion back while slipping Shaq's albatross contract from their neck.

And even though this was a masterful stroke by Riley he did Shaq right. He sent him to a team where he could be succesful. Where he has one more chance to be the guy that pushes a team to a title.

I'm hearing a lot of chatter about what the hell were they thinking, this trade will never work etc etc. when what they need to do is appreciate that shit is going down this year trade wise, sit back and enjoy.

We watch basketball to be entertained. And are you not entertained/elated/excited/intrigued etc?? After all the preseason scandal/off the court issues with players (damn night clubs).. We start the year off with the Celtics scorching start with Garnett/Pierce/Allen making a run at the Bulls record of wins, the Magic's hot start and Dwight Howards nasty manifesting[?], the Blazers going off despite losing Oden before he even plays one regular season game.. Chris Paul and the Hornets, Lebron, Miami's descent, Detriot's rebirth, the Spur's repeat?

And then an innocent, albeit shrewd trade... the Jazz pick up Kyle Korver.. and the arms race in the West erupts. The Lakers get Pau Gasol for table scraps, the Suns unplug from the Matrix and toss the die with Shaq. Lol.. The Spurs pick up Mighty Mouse. This feels so weird, and maybe a little orchestrated. Like some plot twist thrown at us to set up a suprise ending.. this flurry of high profile players being dealt.. and I still have the nagging suspicion Dallas will pull the trigger on a trade before long.

Jesus, I don't think I've ever read so many cliches in one post in my entire life. *It's like I'm drowning in a sea of cliches!* :dramaquee

Are you, like, trying to be a bard or something?

Yuixafun

02-08-2008, 08:46 PM

I did get a little indulgent there. I have a love affair with the english language.

ChumpDumper

02-08-2008, 11:50 PM

Why the hell did Shaq not play tonight?

td4mvp3

02-09-2008, 12:38 PM

maybe they're convinced that parker won't be the same this year, so why not go for it? hobbled parker doesn't cause as many issues so nash can hang with him a bit more? maybe?

coopdogg3

02-09-2008, 12:51 PM

maybe they're convinced that parker won't be the same this year, so why not go for it? hobbled parker doesn't cause as many issues so nash can hang with him a bit more? maybe?

I know that scares the hell out of me. Spurs really need Parker to be 100%, and penetrating at will. Even if Parker isn't fully healthy, he could still make Nash look silly though.

Cry Havoc

02-09-2008, 02:08 PM

Why the hell did Shaq not play tonight?

I heard that he got into it with Nash before the game about who's going to be the MVP on the Suns for the rest of the season.