Whats happened to the 4down

[LilMissSPURfect]

Dont get me wrong...I love this new and improved *Pick Your Poison SPURS TEAM* I just miss seeing TIMMEE's Dominate Stat LINE!

Is there any cause for concern? :blah

[SLOVENIAN 8]

No!

[boutons]

The less 4down isolation, the better.

It's a losing tactic vs The Right Spurs Way team basketball.

[Solid D]

LilMissSPURfect - They still run 4-down. Timmy may not be scoring as often against certain defenses but that's okay. No, you shouldn't be concerned.

It's true the Spurs don't seem to run it as much as they used to (Chump-dumper's namesake) but the Spurs now have better players to run a 5-man motion offense. They also seem to be very productive with the high and side screen/rolls with TP and Tim, and it's how Tony gets a lot of his points when he's playing aggressively.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The only cause for concern would be if we see it used extensively in any game that matters.

4down is the bane of the Spurs offense. Defense + motion offense = championships.

[johnny00]

4 down was an overused play that would eventually bog down the offense, and result in opponents catching up or beating the Spurs in close games. Not that it doesn't have an obvious upside but too much of anything is bad, the motion/pick'n'roll/give and go offense is much more excitng and requires more player involvement.

[ChumpDumper]

Too much of a good thing is bad of course, and the only thing really bad about 4-down itself is if Tim waits too long for the double team. It's still there though, and still generates a good deal of Tim's points and assists.

[Solid D]

Good point. Offenses like the Princeton, Triangle, 4-out/1-in motion, etc. all benefit with a good passing center or post player. Nothing wrong with hub-and-spoke, as Chump says as long as the ball keeps moving.

[Jimcs50]

Flush down the 4 down!!!

Motion offense and pick and roll is all they need.

[timvp]

4Down wins championships. Motion offense wins preseason games in December.

Truth.

[boutons]

"4Down wins championships"

JFC!! not last May. "Tim is just another option" gave us a championship-level 17-game SPAM win streak in April/May, but 4down for 4games sent us gone fishin.

[ShoogarBear]

timvp is right.

Motion offense is nice, but you MUST have a reliable post game to win in crunch time in the playoffs.

Motion offense exclusively will get you exactly the same place as 4-down exclusively: watching someone else win the WCF.

Somehow, some people seem to have the notion that 21 is no longer our best player.

[Kori Ellis]

"4Down wins championships"

JFC!! not last May. "Tim is just another option" gave us a championship-level 17-game SPAM win streak in April/May, but 4down for 4games sent us gone fishin.

Part of 4-down is that the shooters have to knock down perimeter shots. They didn't.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

4down has gotten us beat by LA three times now, I think I'll pass.

BTW, if it comes down to us vs. Miami, 4down would be completely assenine whenever Shaq is in the game. To beat the Deisel you involve him in the pick and roll until you're blue in the face, then you do it some more.

[Solid D]

As said before...the Spurs still run 4-down. They ran it last night.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I don't have a problem with us running it from time to time, just not for the whole freakin' quarter (and it's usually the fourth).

[Rick Von Braun]

I don't mind running 4-down. It might be an effective play, in particular having Tim Duncan in the post. When the play is effective, the Spurs must continue running it.

Having said that, when 4-down is shown to be completely ineffective in a particular game, sometimes the Spurs continue running it over and over, falling into a dead trap. 4-down has been the debacle in almost all Spurs losses, specially playoff losses.

There are many reasons why 4-down might be ineffective:

- Tim having a bad night
- Tim being swarmed by defenders
- Outside shooters failing to knock down shots

What I hate of this team is when 4-down is NOT working, sometimes in pressure situations they continue beating a dead horse over and over and over. This was very clear in almost all losses vs. the Lakers in the last playoffs.

I also find really interesting that in most crucial playoff games during the 2003 Championship run, in the clutch of crucial games we won (6th game), we didn't exclusively run 4-down.

In the series vs the Suns, we won the 6th game thanks to the Hi-Lo between Tim and David, and exterior shooting from the perimeter, not as a result from 4-down and Tim kicking it out, but from rotation of the ball and/or transition 3-pointers (2 treys by Manu and SJax each in the 4th quarter).

In the 6th game vs the Lakers, we increased the lead in the 4th by penetration and layups or dunks, penetration and dish, putbacks, fast-breaks, you name it. I don't think we run 4-down once in the entire quarter. Wonderful movement without the ball... it was a thing of beauty.

In the 6th game vs the Mavericks, we were being destroyed by running 4-down almost all game and it all changed in the 4th. We run pick and roll, screen and roll, penetration and dish. We run a little 4-down in two of Kerr's treys, but not in the other 4 treys by SJax, Manu and Kerr.

Finally, in the Finals' 6th game, we did run more 4-down, but it was effective due to the 3 SJax treys. We also had people cutting to the basket, getting the layup or the foul, and penetration and dish.

I think it is very telling that in the clutch of all crucial playoff games, the Spurs were always successful when they mixed up a little, and they didn't just stand around Tim waiting for him to do something.

This year we are so deep that it would be a shame not using a rich set of offense styles. When the Spurs do that (including 4-down), but in particular when they move with purpose, they are very difficult to beat.