Game Thoughts: Spurs @ Celtics Feb. 10

[timvp]

Coming into the game against the Celtics, I thought Boston had the clear advantage over the Spurs. The new-look Celtics wanted to prove they’re for real and what better way to do so than beat the reigning NBA champs in a nationally televised game? Not to mention the fact that the Spurs always seem to play lethargically in early games.

Even though I thought a win was a long shot going into the game, the way it played out was frustrating. The Spurs played poorly on both ends of the court. Specifically, the offensive execution and the defensive energy were pathetic. With a slightly better showing, the Spurs could have won the game. Instead, they lost 98-90 to the Celtics, who improved to 16-0 against Western Conference teams.

A lot of credit goes to the Celtics who proved they were legit championship contenders. Their defensive play was extremely impressive. They were not only extremely active but they were great at rotating. It’s no surprise that they are statistically ranked as the best defensive team in the league. They are playing defense in each game with playoff-like intensity. Offensively, with Paul Pierce and Ray Allen on the court, they don’t have much trouble getting good looks.

What’s scary for the Spurs is the Celtics looked very good and it was without both Kevin Garnett and their starting center Kendrick Perkins. The Spurs, who were once again without Tony Parker and Brent Barry, do not match up against Boston well at all. Next to the Dallas Mavericks, the Celtics are perhaps the worst matchup in the league for the Spurs.

Overall, even though the Spurs struggled, they had a chance to win the game. If a late game Michael Finley three-pointer didn’t rattle out, the game would have been tied and the Spurs would have had a great shot to pull out the victory. However, the ball rattled out and the Celtics earned their win.

-Although Tim Duncan’s stats look good, I wasn’t happy with how he played. Going against a team whose tallest player was the 6-foot-9 Brian Scalabrine, Duncan should have dominated. Instead, he let the smaller players of the Celtics push him around. He wasn’t fighting for position and when he did get the ball, Duncan didn’t use his size to his advantage. It was surprising because Duncan usually destroys short defenders. This game, however, was different. Whether it was Glen Davis or Leon Powe, Duncan simply didn’t have the type of game the Spurs needed. He finished with 22 points, 14 rebounds, six assists and two blocks, while hitting half of his 20 field goal attempts. Like I said, the stats look good. But in this situation, the Spurs needed Duncan to take more advantage of the mismatches.

-Like Duncan, Manu Ginobili appeared to have a good game if you look at the stats. He totaled 21 points, four rebounds, four assists, two steals and a blocked shot, while shooting 7-for-15 from the field. In reality, Ginobili had a poor outing. Defensively, he was a disaster for the Spurs. To begin the game, Ginobili was assigned to Pierce. Pierce responded by scoring 13 points in the first five minutes and twenty seconds of the game. Pop then put Ginobili on Rajon Rondo and Rondo went Jason Kidd against the Spurs – finishing with five points, 12 assists and 11 rebounds. When the Celtics put together their team this summer, I was worried because I didn’t see a player in their starting lineup that Ginobili could guard. My fears were verified quickly after the game began. Ginobili, who isn’t a very good one-on-one defender against big time scorers or players he has to chase around screens, just doesn’t matchup well with any of the starting Celtics. The worst part is Doc Rivers and the Celtics know this. Whoever Ginobili was guarding became option number one for the Celtics. Offensively, Ginobili was draining his three-pointers but otherwise he was relatively quiet. He was 2-for-4 on two-pointers and had a team-high six turnovers. The Spurs have now lost five straight games in which Ginobili has scored more than 20 points.

-Bruce Bowen had one of his worst games I’ve seen him play as a Spur. It’s like he missed the flight to Boston. In 31 minutes, he hit 1-of-4 three-pointers and had three fouls. That’s all he did. No rebounds, assists, steals or blocks. Most damning, Bowen’s defensive effort was very poor. I’ve rarely seen him have such little impact defensively. In his defense, by the time he was switched off onto Pierce full time, Pierce was already scorching. Although, Bowen’s defense even prior to the switch was sub par. This performance is especially disappointing because of how Bowen dominated the last ten minutes of the victory against the Knicks on Friday.

-In a somewhat surprising change, Jacque Vaughn was back in the starting lineup. The energy was there from Vaughn, but the execution was lacking. He had eight points on 2-for-6 shooting and did little else in his 25 minutes of action. His effort against Allen defensively was high but Allen had too much size on him. It’s difficult to get too angry with Vaughn now because it’s obvious what you can and can’t do. He can’t score consistently and he can’t make plays for others consistently, however he gives consistent effort.

-Fabricio Oberto was another major problem as far as not taking advantage of the lack of size on the court for the Celtics. Oberto had shorter defenders on him all day long and he failed to take advantage. He finished with four points, four rebounds and three assists in 20 minutes of play. If Oberto would have played as well as he played in the last three games, the Spurs likely could have pulled out a victory. Instead, he too got pushed around and Pop had to look elsewhere for production.

-Michael Finley was the only Spur who brought his A game to Boston. Not only was his shot falling, but he was also playing relatively good defense. Without Finley, the Spurs wouldn’t have been anywhere close to winning. In 32 minutes, Finley finished with 19 points, four rebounds and two assists, while connecting on 8-of-13 shots from the field. He had a look at a late game three-pointer that could have tied the game. Unlike the shot against the Knicks, this one rattled out.

-Like many others, Ime Udoka’s defense wasn’t up to par. When he was put on Pierce, Pierce had no trouble either scoring or drawing a foul. In 24 minutes, Udoka had five points and six rebounds before fouling out. One aspect of Udoka’s game that doesn’t bode well for the playoffs is clutch shooting. In tight games late in the fourth quarter, Udoka is shooting less than 30% on the season. Udoka against the Celtics missed a wide open three-pointer late that could have changed the momentum.

-Damon Stoudamire came off the bench for the first time as a Spur and responded with a poor showing. In 23 minutes, he had eight points, three assists and two rebounds, while shooting 3-for-11 from the field. Stoudamire missed his share of wide open looks from beyond the arc as he finished just 1-for-6 on three-pointers. Defensively, he got lit up by Eddie House and whoever else he was assigned to defend. The problem with Stoudamire’s defense is more his lack of size than his lack of understanding of the concepts.

-Robert Horry played seven minutes in the first half but didn’t get any meaningful minutes in the second half. Horry was actually effective while he was on the court, finishing with four rebounds and two assists. With Pop going to small ball in the second half, Horry’s minutes in the rotation were taken by smaller players.

-If possible, it appears that Francisco Elson and Matt Bonner have ventured deeper into Pop’s doghouse. Elson usually gets a look when the Spurs are struggling on the boards. He got zero minutes on Sunday even though the Spurs were outrebounded 46-37. Bonner usually gets minutes when the Spurs were as flat as they were on Sunday. He got zero minutes on Sunday. I thought Pop should have played Bonner ... if only for comedic purposes. With Scalabrine playing 16 minutes for the Celtics, Bonner could have gone against his evil twin brother who not only look like him but also plays like him – if you take away Bonner’s shooting ability, rebounding ability, basketball playing ability and made him slower and more awkward.

-Pop made a whole lot of questionable coaching decision today. I’m not even sure where to start. I guess first of all, I don’t agree with starting Vaughn over Stoudamire. Even when Stoudamire is missing his shots, he’s a much better playmaker and his ability to stretch the floor is needed to keep players away from Duncan and Ginobili. Vaughn is best as a spark plug off the bench who can muck up the game until the starters return. By starting Vaughn, the offense was mucked up for the starters and then the Celtics bench was able to take advantage of Stoudamire’s defense without Duncan behind him.

I’m also not sure in what universe Pop thinks starting Ginobili on Pierce is a good move. Not only is Ginobili unable to defend Pierce, Ginobili even trying to defend Pierce wastes precious energy for Ginobili. If Pop wanted to put Ginobili on a scorer, at least put him on Allen and hope Allen misses shots.

I thought Pop also should have put Ginobili in positions to where he could be the playmaker. With Parker out, Ginobili has to pick up the playmaking slack or else the role players will struggle as they did today. With both Ginobili and Duncan concentrating on scoring, the Spurs become too easy to defend with Parker out.

40 minutes for Duncan and 38 minutes for Ginobili is just too much. I know the Spurs need their two best players in the game but Pop has to find ways to rest his stars. It's hard enough making a late game push but to make a late game push with exhausted players is much tougher.

As far as the small ball lineups, I didn’t have a huge problem with that strategy. The Celtics were playing with a bunch of midgets on the court and if the Duncan and Oberto combination wasn’t going to take advantage of the situation, Pop had to look for other options. It also gave the Spurs a better chance to defend Pierce and Allen because the team can switch defensively easier with their small ball lineup on the court.

This would have been a really, really nice win. Instead, it turned out to be a disappointing loss. Without Garnett and Parker in the game, you can’t really use this game to predict how the two teams will matchup. That said, there appeared to be several mismatches in favor of the Celtics. Hopefully those mismatches could be overcome with better defensive energy, execution and game planning if these two teams face off in more important games at some point in the future.

The bottomline is the Spurs lost a very winnable game. The Spurs also had a few flaws exposed. But with a 4-3 record on the Rodeo Road Trip, the Spurs have two more games to make this a successful trip. At the least, the Spurs need to win one of the last two games. Monday the Spurs take on the Raptors and will be looking to avenge a blowout loss at home they suffered earlier this season.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

:tu
Pop better start getting Serbian on them.

[whottt]

:tu
Pop better start getting Croatian Shaman on them.


Fixed :tu

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I'm also worried about the excessive minutes, especially ginobili.

will be interesting to see how much gas he has in the tank for tomorrow's game

[T Park]

The Spurs also had a few flaws exposed

What flaws exactly?

I was too nonchalant about the game to care and see.

[T Park]

:lmao @ Whottt

[Spurs Dynasty 21]

I'm also worried about the excessive minutes, especially ginobili.

will be interesting to see how much gas he has in the tank for tomorrow's game




Spurs won't make it past the 2nd round unless Manu is on his game, even if it means losing some games, Manu needs to sit

[timvp]

What flaws exactly?Their inability to defend two perimeter scorers at the same time. The Spurs were able to slow down the Nuggets but the Spurs were able to put Ginobili on Steve Blake or Linas Kleiza. The Celtics don't have a Blake or Kleiza to hide against.

Plus the pick-and-roll defense when the Spurs are in their small ball lineups was exposed. The Celtics would involved Duncan in the pick-and-roll and the basket would then be left uncovered.

Gotta give Doc Rivers credit. He went to the Dallas Mavericks school of playing against the Spurs and pulled it off well.

[T Park]

So Udoka as the power forward isn't gonna work.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

So Udoka as the power forward isn't gonna work.

aw man, so much for those hopes, eh?

[Staff Sgt. Dignam]

I thought it was a good game for the C's. But I gots to say that lace curtain mother fucker Kevin Garnett better get back on the floor soon. An abdominal strain wouldn't keep me from doing my job this long.

[td4mvp21]

We really, really need a better frontcourt. We can get by without having a tall slasher, but in this year's playoffs, we cannot get by with a frontcourt of Oberto and Elson. We just can't. The Suns, the Lakers, the Jazz, the Mavericks, the Rockets, the Pistons, and the Celtics will abuse the fuck out of our frontcourt in the playoffs. (All of this sans Duncan, of course). Duncan can't do everything. I really think we need to make a move...

[bigfundamental21]

Great thoughts, as usual, timvp.

I too, thought this was a winable game. Too many defensive lapses and the lack of movement on offense hurt us.

The other blaring disparity was the amount of free throws that each team shot. The Celtics got 23 points on 34 free throw attempts, while the Spurs only got 9 points on 13 attempts.

And, as you said, the Celtics threw a team of midgets on us and we still lost the rebounding battle. Unacceptable. Duncan had the most rebounds with 14, but the next closest Spur was Udoka with only 6. We definitely did not take advantage of the size.

[DannyT]

fab was ineffective because he could hold on to the fucking ball today...every pass he got he lost...its was like watching nazi all over again minus the pump fakes

[ShoogarBear]

An abdominal strain wouldn't keep me from doing my job this long.You must be the other guy.

[SouthernFried]

Flaws were clutch rebounding. That prolly got under most of our skins more than anything. Still, we had a chance to win this game. Fins late shot was in and out...we had a chance.

And that's what I'm taking from this game. As poor as a lot of our effort/execution was...we had a chance to win it.

I feel good about this game. It was only disappointing because we could have won it. I really wasn't sure the Spurs would even get close enough to Boston to have that much of a chance. But, we did.

Get Bowen playing his normal D, not killing Manu with scoring and playmaking responsibilities with excessive on-court minutes...add Parker to the mix...and I feel good about our chances against this team in a 7 game series.

After all the crappy wins we've had against lowly teams such as the knicks, I feel pretty good about this loss against the Celts.

We need another rebounder tho...seriously.

[Supreme_Being]

Why am I getting the feeling that Pop wanted to lose this game on purpose?

[baseline bum]

:lmao @ Whottt.

[J.T.]

This would have been a good game for Pop to get tossed in.

[T Park]

Im seriously suprised Pop didn't drop the soft card.

[remingtonbo2001]

Why am I getting the feeling that Pop wanted to lose this game on purpose?

I was wondering if that would be a good statagy. You don't wanna lay your hand down too soon.

But I figured with Parker already out, our recent outing versus the Knicks, it wouldn't take much for us to loose in the first place.

[ducks]

duncan hates early games

but manu completly sucked on d on paul to begin the game
manu can not guard him period and bowen can only guard him or ray

[Capt Bringdown]

Gotta give Doc Rivers credit. He went to the Dallas Mavericks school of playing against the Spurs and pulled it off well.

The trouble is the Spurs seemingly don't have an answer for this, save for "hope we get lucky and don't have to play them."

[duncan228]

Im seriously suprised Pop didn't drop the soft card.

I think he's getting ready to. This time about offense.
From the Express News:

At one point in the third quarter, Popovich lambasted his team, calling its offensive execution “the worst I’ve ever seen in my life” and threatening to begin calling plays on every possession, according to the ABC telecast.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA021008.EN.BKNspurs.early.gamer.ac09318f.html

EDIT: A thread on the story has already been posted, sorry:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86833

[ducks]

spurs miss tp

[BonnerDynasty]

Such Bullshit that Pop didn't play Bonner.

Bonner would have torn up Scalabrine. There can be only one!

[ShoogarBear]

Scalabrine was doing a damn good job tearing himself up.

[wildchild]

Thanks timvp. I appreciate what are you doing every game.

Fabricio Oberto was another major problem as far as not taking advantage of the lack of size on the court for the Celtics. Oberto had shorter defenders on him all day long and he failed to take advantage. He finished with four points, four rebounds and three assists in 20 minutes of play. If Oberto would have played as well as he played in the last three games, the Spurs likely could have pulled out a victory. Instead, he too got pushed around and Pop had to look elsewhere for production.
Why against shorter defender took the ball only 4 times in the game? He wasn't playing good enough but I think Pop doesn't trust in Oberto's offensive. Doesn't count on his help and I don't know why.
The guy is effective and he has four double-digit scoring games in the last six (except in NY with 8p).

On pg.I don't dislike Damon and Jacques, quite the contrary but if the center with limited minutes like Oberto finish with more asist than pg really I miss Tony. :cry

[wildchild]

Such Bullshit that Pop didn't play Bonner.

Bonner would have torn up Scalabrine. There can be only one!


Scalabrine was doing a damn good job tearing himself up

He played only 15 minutes what's the matter? 2p and totally unnoticed.

[wildbill2u]

We lost this game because of turnovers caused by their defense. The refs may have let them get away with some fouls, but we didn't--or couldn't-- really contest their defense with good execution and deserved to lose.

[Indazone]

LOL only one slow red headed white baller on the court at a time?

[T Park]

So Timvp is that a no on it being a good idea to play Udoka at the 4 vs like Dallas? :lol

[BonnerDynasty]

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/8454/96152558sz6.jpg


Guest ref:

http://iamatvjunkie.typepad.com/i_am_a_tv_junkie_a_blog_f/images/michael_rapaport.jpg

[J.T.]

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/8454/96152558sz6.jpg

Bizarro Matt Bonner!

[mystargtr34]

Scalabrine was doing a damn good job tearing himself up.
:lol

Im gonna throw something out here... what do you guys think of going after Ron Artest? His contract is up at the end of the season and its highly unlikely he will re-sign with the Kings anyway. Artest basically owns Pierce, probably the only guy that can stay in front of him and match up with him strength wise. This would be huge against the Mavs also with J-Ho and Dirk. Just a though.... i think it could work here in this environment.

Perhaps a Barry + Elson and a second rounder.

[T Park]

I'd rather lose for 10 years and be in the lottery, than have Ron Artest on my team and win.

[duncan228]

One Ron Artest conversation:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86227

And another one:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84027

[hsxvvd]

Missed the game, but reading your thoughts leads me to this question/proposal?

Is there any reason why we couldn't have gone big?

Ginobili/Bowen/Udoka/Oberto/Duncan?

Ginobili has the ball in his hands when he needs it, Bowen on Pierce, Udoka on Allen, and Size mismatches on the Wee-Celtics.

I know Rondo can be a nightmare for back-up gaurds, but Manu could surely handle it.

[MagnusKrauss]

sure did see a lot of fouls that went the Celts way.

what really bothered me was all the turnovers, i mean, were their minds even in the game?

the only good that came out of this game was pop telling the team that the offense sucked. the defense sucked too but i'm not sure if he included that.

thanks for the thoughts timvp!

:flag:

[Amuseddaysleeper]

What I wanna see is not even just the spurs in general attacking the basket more (I'm scared to lookup where they rank in FT attempts per game) but Michael Finley to attack the rim more. While he's up there in age, Finley can still dunk it better than most Spurs, and I wouldn't mind seeing him take it to the hoop more as he is also a very good FT shooter.

I am sometimes puzzled with his decent athleticism (for his age) that he settles for mostly jumpers

[sabar]

What I wanna see is not even just the spurs in general attacking the basket more (I'm scared to lookup where they rank in FT attempts per game) but Michael Finley to attack the rim more. While he's up there in age, Finley can still dunk it better than most Spurs, and I wouldn't mind seeing him take it to the hoop more as he is also a very good FT shooter.

I am sometimes puzzled with his decent athleticism (for his age) that he settles for mostly jumpersAgreed, he had no problems dunking in 2006 on Dallas. I mean, when Tim dunks he sometimes limps away like he pulled something http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif, Finley should be able to, but he seems to really settle for jumpers, even if there is an open path.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

exactly, I was mostly thinking about some his big dunks (the one on dampier comes to mind) from the 2006 series.

I don't mind Finley as a jumpshooter, but I would love to see this team cut to the basket far more, especially when their 3's aren't falling

[SouthernFried]

Finley can dunk it...he just can't get by anyone to do it. Only people who can get to the rim on a regular basis are Manu and Tony, period...and TP's not here. JV does his best, but...

Turnovers are a function of bad passing generally. Spurs (especially Manu) rely on the baseball pass more than the bounce pass. Baseball passes are much easier to deflect. Easier to just reach out, or up, to deflect a baseball pass. Bounce passes are much harder to deflect, most people don't like to reach down to deflect that type of pass, but use their feet and kick the pass instead. Why Bounce passes generally get through over a baseball pass...and even if kicked, you get the ball back.

Manu's passing would improve if he focused on this more, imho.

And fer chrissakes...stop all this stupid cross-court passing!

[mathbzh]

So without our startin PG and with our 2 best players playing poorly we had a close loss against a team without his best player and his starting C. I wonder if this game means something. Time will tell.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/8454/96152558sz6.jpg


:lol

If Spurs and Celtics make it to the finals, that will only add to the entertainment factor.

Then again I don't want to see Bonner get many key minutes if we make it to the finals.

I'm all for key Scalabrine minutes though!

[AFBlue]

My thoughts....

- I feel bad for Duncan. Yes he should have dominated moreso than he did, but I felt like he wasn't getting the normal respect for the refs that he usually does. Whether it's right or not, Duncan will normally draw a few ticky-tacky fouls in the post, then finish with ease. IIRC, going into the 4th quarter Duncan had attempted one free throw.

I actually thought he was plenty aggressive, but that he wasn't getting help....either by the refs or by his open teammates that didn't hit their shots.

- Small-ball isn't such a bad strategy and wasn't to blame for this loss. Guys like Ime and Manu actually rebound pretty well for their size, but rebounding is about will/intensity, and the Spurs just didn't have it yesterday.

Having said that, if the Spurs' other bigs (Elson and Bonner) aren't going to be trusted to play, then the Spurs should REALLY look to add a frontcourt player for the homestretch. Spurs simply can't play small-ball against everyone and expect to win.

- While I didn't like Vaughn starting, I agree with the Vaugh/Ginobili pairing in the backcourt. To me, the best starting 5 combination for this squad is Damon, Fin, Bowen, Duncan, Oberto. Key reserves are Vaughn, Ginobili, Udoka, and Horry. It's a similar formula to the one the Spurs have when they're playing with Tony...starting out with a "scoring" PG and bringing Manu off the bench.

I think that's what this road trip is all about, though. Trying different rotations and seeing what works best.

- To that end, however, I don't know that the Spurs are learning much about themselves on this trip....other than how unmotivated and out-of-focus they are to this point. Of course it doesn't help that they're one-time leading scorer and key piece to last year's finals is out. Still, it's tough to see how this road trip is turning out as a positive for the team.

Sorry to be a debbie downer...

But it looks like the Spurs will face another tough challenge (Bosh & Co.) tonight in Toronto.

[vanvannen]

I think Horry should have had more minutes. Rebounding was a key factor to the loss. On the oter hand, although I agree with Timvp about Ginobili's horrible pairing with any of the Celts starters, he will mostly go against the second unit. When he is on the court with the starters he should definitely go against Allen, and if Allen beats him off the dribble there is always TD waiting for him at the rim.

By the way, ugly loss. It is really scary how Spurs manage to loose against most quality teams.

[SAGambler]

The bottomline is the Spurs lost a very winnable game. The Spurs also had a few flaws exposed. But with a 4-3 record on the Rodeo Road Trip, the Spurs have two more games to make this a successful trip. At the least, the Spurs need to win one of the last two games. Monday the Spurs take on the Raptors and will be looking to avenge a blowout loss at home they suffered earlier this season.

Actually, I wasn't too disappointed. Seeing as how it was a Sunday noon start, which the Spurs never seem ready to play, and that Fin had a good shot to tie it with seconds left, this game was a lot closer than the final score seems. Add into that the group Pop was playing in and out, and actually I was surprised the Spurs still had a shot at the end to win it.

Rebounding was our undoing. Simple.

I was most disappointed in Duncan. He made Big Baby Ds year. A guy he should have used and abused, got the best of the matchup. Un friggin believeable.

[Spurminator]

Is Brian Scalabrine really a "Boston fan favorite" as Mike Breen kept insisting yesterday? I could have sworn I heard booing after a few of his plays.

For a player like Brian Scalabrine to be a fan favorite in a city with such a rich history of great basketball players is unthinkable. He's clumsy and awkward; he doesn't compensate for his lack of athleticism with any notable basketball IQ; and it's not like he isn't well-compensated.

I know Boston loves their pasty white guys but I can't believe they'd celebrate such a wreckless oaf wearing the uniform of Russell, Havlicek and Bird.

[E20]

Pretty simple way to win against Boston with or without KG. Tony Parker.

Parker comes in and ass rapes the Celtics PG's (They have none.........) Celtics have to focus more on stopping Parker's drives, then the paint is a much more easier place for TD to operate in and with the Celts focused on TP and Duncan, Manu is free to be Manu.

Tim Duncan should have a field day against Boston. They will never let KG play Duncan on D and with the Celtics C/PF's, as Timvp said, Duncan should utterly dominate. The only question is containing the Celts on the offensive end.

[Indazone]

PG is the most important member of any team. The guy is responsible for setting up the team and running the plays. He handles the ball and distributes it. In Parker's case, he is called on to also drive, penetrate and score.

Losing Parker is a huge loss for the Spurs.

[Harry Callahan]

No fast break points yesterday. None.

It's funny that the Fox Sports Basketball "Expert" Charley Rosen did not even mention the name of Tony Parker or Brent Barry in his so-called analysis of the game. That is really impressive work. I would have Emailed him but you have to join something on the Fox Sports site. I did not want to go to that much trouble.

An all-star player and finals MVP not even mentioned but KG and Kendrick Perkins are in the first sentence of Rosen's story. What a hack.

Tony Parker, at less than 100%, means no repeat. Period. He has made this team much more dangerous over the last 2-3 years.

[loveforthegame]

I wonder why they don't use that play where Finley runs like he's going to curl around the screen but cuts right back towards the basket and they (usually Parker) pass him the ball for the easy layup? I've only seen Parker do that play where Duncan is passing the ball instead this year. It would work for anyone really but Finley had much success with that his first year here but they only used it a few times last year.

Finley isn't going to drive anymore unless he has a clear open lane. Although he did have that nice baseline drive yesterday to get the reverse layup. I was like where did that come from. It's not his strength anymore despite having the athleticism to get nasty dunks still.

[SenorSpur]

By the way, much props to TimVP for his always-excellent game reviews. The work he puts into this cannot be appreciated enough.

That said, here are some game thoughts from someone who attended the game.

First off, if anyone doesn't believe the Celtics are for real - BELIEVE IT. This team is talented, they play hard and they play together. They play outstanding defense and their commitment on that end is very noticable. Even though KG is not playing, you can still see the difference in defensive attitude that HE is largely responsible for and that is now a staple of how they play as a unit. Whenever Ray Allen pulls up his shorts and assumes a defensive posture, that's a clear indication of a new appreciation for defense.

By the time I sat down, got my bearings and looked up at the 1st quarter score, it was Manu 11, Celtics 10. Manu was all over the place, as usual. He was hot early, and kept suckering the Celtics by his pump fakes - which they never seemed to catch on. He rebounded the ball very well for the game. Unfortunately, he shot the ball poorly in the 4th quarter, taking several ill-advised shots and making some bad decisons down the stretch with the ball. We all love Manu's aggressiveness, but he spent way too much time trying to draw fouls and looking around for "bail-out" calls, while the Celtics were sprinting the other way with the ball. I thought he should have tried setting up others (especially Finley, who was on a roll) when his shot wasn't falling. Defensively, he should have never had the task of guarding Pierce. It took too much out of him.

Duncan had a decent game, but he could've been more dominant that he was. He did rebound the ball well and changed several shots by the C's. On the offensive end, he made difficult shots at very weird angles. However too many times, the Celtics defense forced him into chucking up bad shots. The result of which was him sprawling to the floor and, like Manu, looking at the refs for calls that never came. Looks like Tim has retired the concept of using his left hand.

Oberto did have smaller defenders on him a good portion of the game, yet never sought to take advantage. We know he's not a good rebounder, more of a tap-out kinda guy. I hate that. Overall, he was a non-factor.

Finley had an outstanding shooting performance. So much so, the crowd started to gasp, in horror, whenever he caught the ball for wide open looks. I really thought the Spurs should've rode his "hot hand" down the stretch. For those wanting see him drive the ball more, it's a good idea. I'd like to see him do more of that too, but I think his days of doing that are pretty much over. He even pulls the ball back out even is semi-transition opportunities.

Outside of hitting one 3-pt shot, Bowen was virtually invisible. I thought he should've spent more time guarding Pierce. Of course neither he, Manu or Udoka were able to slow down Pierce. Bowen and Manu committed a couple of very dumb fouls in the 4th quarter that helped put the Spurs in the penalty early.

Vaughn struggled offensively and didn't provide much in terms of playmaking. Other than his on-ball defense and his hustle, games like this make you wonder where his net value is - especially when neither he nor Stoudamire were big enough or physical enough to stop Rondo. Rondo didn't have a good scoring game, but he did affect the game by netting 11 rebs and 12 assists. Despite Vaughn's obvious deficiencies, Pop seems to have unwavewring trust in him.

Stoudamire never got into any rhythm. Don't know if this was becaue he came off the bench. Missed a an inordinate number of wide-open looks.

Udoka played a physical defensive game, but got into foul trouble and later fouled out.

An APB needs to go out on Robert Horry because he was missing without action. Only played 7 minutes? Are you kidding me?

I still don't get why Pop feels compelled to play "small ball" for long stretches. I certainly didn't agree with him benching Stoudamire in favor of Vaughn - especially when that lineup has been succesful. This was mentioned earlier, but I also didn't agree with Pop playing Duncan and Ginobili for 40 and 38 mins, respectively. By now, it's obvious that when these two play too many minutes, it generates diminishing returns.

As many have accurately stated, despite their shortcomings, this WAS a winnable game for the Spurs.

A few trivial items from the game:

Big Baby is an underrated post defender. Strong base and didn't give way much position to Duncan. Also, he is clearly a fan favorite.

Brian Scalabrine is a douche who often gets jeers from the crowd for either dribbling too much, taking ill-advised shots or doing something clearly not within his skill set. Don't pay any attention to what the national media says about him. He's not a fan favorite.

James Posey can really play suffocating defense

Eddie House is a shooter, not a PG

Ray Allen and Paul Pierce are still studs

Rondo is a more effective PG that he's given credit for

I was reminded of what a TERRIBLE dresser Pop is. The Johnny Carson look aint makin' it for him. Especially when I looked down the other end and saw Doc Rivers in his expnesive, finely-tailored brown suit. I guess Pop is way more interested in buying wine than clothes. :lol

The Spurs are 0-3 in road games that I've attended over the past 3 seasons. Maybe I'm the jinx.

[polandprzem]

Coming into the game against the Celtics, I thought Boston had the clear advantage over the Spurs. The new-look Celtics wanted to prove they’re for real and what better way to do so than beat the reigning NBA champs in a nationally televised game? Not to mention the fact that the Spurs always seem to play lethargically in early games.

Even though I thought a win was a long shot going into the game, the way it played out was frustrating. The Spurs played poorly on both ends of the court. Specifically, the offensive execution and the defensive energy were pathetic. With a slightly better showing, the Spurs could have won the game. Instead, they lost 98-90 to the Celtics, who improved to 16-0 against Western Conference teams.

A lot of credit goes to the Celtics who proved they were legit championship contenders. Their defensive play was extremely impressive. They were not only extremely active but they were great at rotating. It’s no surprise that they are statistically ranked as the best defensive team in the league. They are playing defense in each game with playoff-like intensity. Offensively, with Paul Pierce and Ray Allen on the court, they don’t have much trouble getting good looks.

What’s scary for the Spurs is the Celtics looked very good and it was without both Kevin Garnett and their starting center Kendrick Perkins. The Spurs, who were once again without Tony Parker and Brent Barry, do not match up against Boston well at all. Next to the Dallas Mavericks, the Celtics are perhaps the worst matchup in the league for the Spurs.

Overall, even though the Spurs struggled, they had a chance to win the game. If a late game Michael Finley three-pointer didn’t rattle out, the game would have been tied and the Spurs would have had a great shot to pull out the victory. However, the ball rattled out and the Celtics earned their win.

-Although Tim Duncan’s stats look good, I wasn’t happy with how he played. Going against a team whose tallest player was the 6-foot-9 Brian Scalabrine, Duncan should have dominated. Instead, he let the smaller players of the Celtics push him around. He wasn’t fighting for position and when he did get the ball, Duncan didn’t use his size to his advantage. It was surprising because Duncan usually destroys short defenders. This game, however, was different. Whether it was Glen Davis or Leon Powe, Duncan simply didn’t have the type of game the Spurs needed. He finished with 22 points, 14 rebounds, six assists and two blocks, while hitting half of his 20 field goal attempts. Like I said, the stats look good. But in this situation, the Spurs needed Duncan to take more advantage of the mismatches.

-Like Duncan, Manu Ginobili appeared to have a good game if you look at the stats. He totaled 21 points, four rebounds, four assists, two steals and a blocked shot, while shooting 7-for-15 from the field. In reality, Ginobili had a poor outing. Defensively, he was a disaster for the Spurs. To begin the game, Ginobili was assigned to Pierce. Pierce responded by scoring 13 points in the first five minutes and twenty seconds of the game. Pop then put Ginobili on Rajon Rondo and Rondo went Jason Kidd against the Spurs – finishing with five points, 12 assists and 11 rebounds. When the Celtics put together their team this summer, I was worried because I didn’t see a player in their starting lineup that Ginobili could guard. My fears were verified quickly after the game began. Ginobili, who isn’t a very good one-on-one defender against big time scorers or players he has to chase around screens, just doesn’t matchup well with any of the starting Celtics. The worst part is Doc Rivers and the Celtics know this. Whoever Ginobili was guarding became option number one for the Celtics. Offensively, Ginobili was draining his three-pointers but otherwise he was relatively quiet. He was 2-for-4 on two-pointers and had a team-high six turnovers. The Spurs have now lost five straight games in which Ginobili has scored more than 20 points.

-Bruce Bowen had one of his worst games I’ve seen him play as a Spur. It’s like he missed the flight to Boston. In 31 minutes, he hit 1-of-4 three-pointers and had three fouls. That’s all he did. No rebounds, assists, steals or blocks. Most damning, Bowen’s defensive effort was very poor. I’ve rarely seen him have such little impact defensively. In his defense, by the time he was switched off onto Pierce full time, Pierce was already scorching. Although, Bowen’s defense even prior to the switch was sub par. This performance is especially disappointing because of how Bowen dominated the last ten minutes of the victory against the Knicks on Friday.

-In a somewhat surprising change, Jacque Vaughn was back in the starting lineup. The energy was there from Vaughn, but the execution was lacking. He had eight points on 2-for-6 shooting and did little else in his 25 minutes of action. His effort against Allen defensively was high but Allen had too much size on him. It’s difficult to get too angry with Vaughn now because it’s obvious what you can and can’t do. He can’t score consistently and he can’t make plays for others consistently, however he gives consistent effort.

-Fabricio Oberto was another major problem as far as not taking advantage of the lack of size on the court for the Celtics. Oberto had shorter defenders on him all day long and he failed to take advantage. He finished with four points, four rebounds and three assists in 20 minutes of play. If Oberto would have played as well as he played in the last three games, the Spurs likely could have pulled out a victory. Instead, he too got pushed around and Pop had to look elsewhere for production.

-Michael Finley was the only Spur who brought his A game to Boston. Not only was his shot falling, but he was also playing relatively good defense. Without Finley, the Spurs wouldn’t have been anywhere close to winning. In 32 minutes, Finley finished with 19 points, four rebounds and two assists, while connecting on 8-of-13 shots from the field. He had a look at a late game three-pointer that could have tied the game. Unlike the shot against the Knicks, this one rattled out.

-Like many others, Ime Udoka’s defense wasn’t up to par. When he was put on Pierce, Pierce had no trouble either scoring or drawing a foul. In 24 minutes, Udoka had five points and six rebounds before fouling out. One aspect of Udoka’s game that doesn’t bode well for the playoffs is clutch shooting. In tight games late in the fourth quarter, Udoka is shooting less than 30% on the season. Udoka against the Celtics missed a wide open three-pointer late that could have changed the momentum.

-Damon Stoudamire came off the bench for the first time as a Spur and responded with a poor showing. In 23 minutes, he had eight points, three assists and two rebounds, while shooting 3-for-11 from the field. Stoudamire missed his share of wide open looks from beyond the arc as he finished just 1-for-6 on three-pointers. Defensively, he got lit up by Eddie House and whoever else he was assigned to defend. The problem with Stoudamire’s defense is more his lack of size than his lack of understanding of the concepts.

-Robert Horry played seven minutes in the first half but didn’t get any meaningful minutes in the second half. Horry was actually effective while he was on the court, finishing with four rebounds and two assists. With Pop going to small ball in the second half, Horry’s minutes in the rotation were taken by smaller players.

-If possible, it appears that Francisco Elson and Matt Bonner have ventured deeper into Pop’s doghouse. Elson usually gets a look when the Spurs are struggling on the boards. He got zero minutes on Sunday even though the Spurs were outrebounded 46-37. Bonner usually gets minutes when the Spurs were as flat as they were on Sunday. He got zero minutes on Sunday. I thought Pop should have played Bonner ... if only for comedic purposes. With Scalabrine playing 16 minutes for the Celtics, Bonner could have gone against his evil twin brother who not only look like him but also plays like him – if you take away Bonner’s shooting ability, rebounding ability, basketball playing ability and made him slower and more awkward.

-Pop made a whole lot of questionable coaching decision today. I’m not even sure where to start. I guess first of all, I don’t agree with starting Vaughn over Stoudamire. Even when Stoudamire is missing his shots, he’s a much better playmaker and his ability to stretch the floor is needed to keep players away from Duncan and Ginobili. Vaughn is best as a spark plug off the bench who can muck up the game until the starters return. By starting Vaughn, the offense was mucked up for the starters and then the Celtics bench was able to take advantage of Stoudamire’s defense without Duncan behind him.

I’m also not sure in what universe Pop thinks starting Ginobili on Pierce is a good move. Not only is Ginobili unable to defend Pierce, Ginobili even trying to defend Pierce wastes precious energy for Ginobili. If Pop wanted to put Ginobili on a scorer, at least put him on Allen and hope Allen misses shots.

I thought Pop also should have put Ginobili in positions to where he could be the playmaker. With Parker out, Ginobili has to pick up the playmaking slack or else the role players will struggle as they did today. With both Ginobili and Duncan concentrating on scoring, the Spurs become too easy to defend with Parker out.

40 minutes for Duncan and 38 minutes for Ginobili is just too much. I know the Spurs need their two best players in the game but Pop has to find ways to rest his stars. It's hard enough making a late game push but to make a late game push with exhausted players is much tougher.

As far as the small ball lineups, I didn’t have a huge problem with that strategy. The Celtics were playing with a bunch of midgets on the court and if the Duncan and Oberto combination wasn’t going to take advantage of the situation, Pop had to look for other options. It also gave the Spurs a better chance to defend Pierce and Allen because the team can switch defensively easier with their small ball lineup on the court.

This would have been a really, really nice win. Instead, it turned out to be a disappointing loss. Without Garnett and Parker in the game, you can’t really use this game to predict how the two teams will matchup. That said, there appeared to be several mismatches in favor of the Celtics. Hopefully those mismatches could be overcome with better defensive energy, execution and game planning if these two teams face off in more important games at some point in the future.

The bottomline is the Spurs lost a very winnable game. The Spurs also had a few flaws exposed. But with a 4-3 record on the Rodeo Road Trip, the Spurs have two more games to make this a successful trip. At the least, the Spurs need to win one of the last two games. Monday the Spurs take on the Raptors and will be looking to avenge a blowout loss at home they suffered earlier this season.


First of all Celtics are so superb it's insaine. Just like Dallas were last year.
And Doc rivers is a great coach when he have players which are commited to his coaching philosophy. Hustling, with no pressure. That how he earned COTY.

As for Duncan - He got double teams all night long. Or fake double teams which are the most effective IMO. No spur player had an open look as the permiter guys were fast in coming back to the spurs guards. Even when Tim found somebody still that guy had a tough situation hitting the basket. Plus Tim was outmuscled and get no star treatment from the refs.

I'm nopt agree with Horry. HE had bad game once again. Those rebounds were not in the traffic or won in a battle. I could get those rebs.

Bwen - allen - maybe it worked in seattle but this time. Doc find a way to make Bowen unproductive. he was closing him on two screens (Bruce in not great defensor on screens), and then Allen could ho eithr way make a jumpshot or do a short pick and roll and was passing to the slashing screener.

Gino was making stupid decisions mostly. But it was also not easy cause he most of the time met a help defender coming toward him. That's when those TO came from.

All in all Spurs have no adventage on permieter as they don't have inside.
Big problem -rebounds - either in the paint or the long ones. Spurs were killed. And there is nobody who could help them.
If Pop decides to play small ball it's over. Although Udoka was looking for those rebs. he lacks of size. And now imagine Kedrick and KG out there. KG is also superb in long rebs. So they will have a big adventage next time we meet them.

Oberto is not a good option when it comes to phisical play.
Well we have nobody outbthere.
having just Duncan it's not enough. All game long we had no inside presents.
That's the biggest problem of all. No wonder Pop was pissed LA got even stronger inside.


.... I gotta go for a moment

[SenorSpur]

Whenever Ginobili is forced to shoulder more of the load than normal, he has shown a tendency to try to do too much and thus makes many mistakes and bad decisions.

[1Parker1]

Here's a important question Timvp:

Pop's decision to rest Parker in order to have him healthy for the playoffs, while on the surface seems like the smart decision...is keeping him out this long and relying so heavily on Duncan/Ginobili having the opposite affect on them? Meaning, right now Ginobili is playing heavy minutes in Parker's absence, has to assume a large part of the offensive and PG role, and is clearly expending a lot of energy trying to be the Spurs backcourt all by his lonesome self.

My biggest fear is in resting Parker for so long, Duncan and Ginobili may be tanked by the time playoffs come around....

[1Parker1]

Ricardo (London, Ontario): Good afternoon Chris, When are the Spurs going to push the "panic" button? I know they're a team who turns it up a notch in the last month of the season, but they're just beating themselves up (duncan and ginobili are going to wear out), and getting a 5th seed or lower may haunt them in the end, don't you think?

Chris Broussard: (1:12 PM ET ) Ricardo,

I don't think the Spurs will push the panic button, though they would certainly love to improve before the trade deadline. But I agree with you - I don't think this is the typically "Spurs don't care about the regular season'' slumber. I think age has finally caught up with them. Don't get me wrong, they're still a top-flight team. But I don't think they're winning the West this year. Bruce Bowen, Robert Horry and Michael Finley are all showing their age, and honestly, so is Tim Duncan. Duncan is still an awesome player, one of the league's best, but I don't think he's as dominant as he was just a year ago. They'll be a tough out, but in my opinion, they're definitely going out.


ESPN Chat take on the Spurs... :(

[1Parker1]

This year, I think Bowen, Horry, Barry and company have really shown their age. Finley still looks to have it on a given night, Duncan is still Duncan IMO. But the role players are showing their age.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

1Parker1, you bring up an interesting question, but I'm hoping the ASG break does everyone some good. I'd rather TD be resting more during the break, but at least Manu can get an entire week off, so hopefully the team can come back re-energized

[SenorSpur]

This year, I think Bowen, Horry, Barry and company have really shown their age. Finley still looks to have it on a given night, Duncan is still Duncan IMO. But the role players are showing their age.

IMO the Spurs winning the title last year and not having to go through the Mavs or Pistons, and on top of that, remaining virtually injury-free were all very fortunate events. From that accomplishment, the FO felt justified keeping the roster intact, which is a dangerous risk considering the age, health and declining skills currently on this roster. It was always my hope that the Spurs FO would avoid a dip in team performance by proactively upgrading the roster.

While other teams have gotten better, the Spurs have virtually remained the same. There's going to come a point where the annual title of "oldest roster in the league" will be a detriment and produce diminished results. I just hope that point wasn't last summer.

If for whatever reason the Spurs do not repeat, remember we'll all hark back to last summer's "keep it intact" philosophy as a mistake.

[T Park]

I'm still wondering who these players they should've acquired that would've made them "younger"

[polandprzem]

IMO the Spurs winning the title last year and not having to go through the Mavs or Pistons, and on top of that, remaining virtually injury-free were all very fortunate events. From that accomplishment, the FO felt justified keeping the roster intact, which is a dangerous risk considering the age, health and declining skills currently on this roster. It was always my hope that the Spurs FO would avoid a dip in team performance by proactively upgrading the roster.

While other teams have gotten better, the Spurs have virtually remained the same. There's going to come a point where the annual title of "oldest roster in the league" will be a detriment and produce diminished results. I just hope that point wasn't last summer.

If for whatever reason the Spurs do not repeat, remember we'll all hark back to last summer's "keep it intact" philosophy as a mistake.

That was more then risky.
The other teams got better in off-season... and season.

This offseason will be the refreshing one, but we still have to play this year with the old roster.

Most important "missings" -
froncourt (rebounds)
young legs
addopt to NBA recent style

[T Park]

Oberto is not a good option when it comes to phisical play

Uh, what do you base THAT false statement on.

[J.T.]

Nobody got the Bizarro Matt Bonner reference :depressed

[polandprzem]

Uh, what do you base THAT false statement on.

On his play


thank you

[Rummpd]

Bad refs.

Bad Pop.

Bad bounces on key boards and Spurs outhustled as well.

That about sums up this stinking loss.

[T Park]

On his play


thank you


Seeing as Oberto is a physical big your as usual 100% wrong.

Quit while your ahead.

[T Park]

Bad refs.

Bad Pop.

Bad bounces on key boards and Spurs outhustled as well.

That about sums up this stinking loss.

Bad defense at critical times as well.

But you summed it up quite nicely as usual doc :tu

[polandprzem]

Seeing as Oberto is a physical big your as usual 100% wrong.

Quit while your ahead.

Yes I know - you are right as usual. Also I agree that I'm ahead.


Yours Sincierly, fuckface

[td4mvp21]

The age thing isn't going to improve anytime soon-Pop doesn't play young players! They make one mistake and they go in the doghouse for the rest of the season. He has absolutely no trust in young players. I can't see the age problem getting better with that in consideration. And that's not to say that makes Pop a bad coach, but that is a factor as to why most of our players are old.

[SenorSpur]

The age thing isn't going to improve anytime soon-Pop doesn't play young players! They make one mistake and they go in the doghouse for the rest of the season. He has absolutely no trust in young players. I can't see the age problem getting better with that in consideration. And that's not to say that makes Pop a bad coach, but that is a factor as to why most of our players are old.

Yeah, that's a point that has been fairly obvious. He's much like Larry Brown (his mentor) in that regard. It's a wonder that he ever played Tony Parker as a rook, much less given him the starting job. I still question the release of Darius Washington.

There's no question that Pop is a great coach. A HOF-level coach. I just wish he were more flexible. As much as he values defense, he should know it's far more difficult for older players to keep younger, quicker guys in front of them on the defensive end. I wonder Pop ever gets tired of seeing his players routinely get outrebounded, outhustled and lose possessions because they're not as quick to the ball. This is not to mention the fact that they're getting little to no transition points since TP's absence.

[roycrikside]

-Like Duncan, Manu Ginobili appeared to have a good game if you look at the stats. He totaled 21 points, four rebounds, four assists, two steals and a blocked shot, while shooting 7-for-15 from the field. In reality, Ginobili had a poor outing. Defensively, he was a disaster for the Spurs. To begin the game, Ginobili was assigned to Pierce. Pierce responded by scoring 13 points in the first five minutes and twenty seconds of the game. Pop then put Ginobili on Rajon Rondo and Rondo went Jason Kidd against the Spurs – finishing with five points, 12 assists and 11 rebounds. When the Celtics put together their team this summer, I was worried because I didn’t see a player in their starting lineup that Ginobili could guard. My fears were verified quickly after the game began. Ginobili, who isn’t a very good one-on-one defender against big time scorers or players he has to chase around screens, just doesn’t matchup well with any of the starting Celtics. The worst part is Doc Rivers and the Celtics know this. Whoever Ginobili was guarding became option number one for the Celtics. Offensively, Ginobili was draining his three-pointers but otherwise he was relatively quiet. He was 2-for-4 on two-pointers and had a team-high six turnovers. The Spurs have now lost five straight games in which Ginobili has scored more than 20 points.



Oh geez here we go. You have this obsession with picking on Ginobili's defense, even though he doesn't get scored upon anymore than any other shooting guard in the league. I swear, TimVP, you are a total hypocrite when it comes to Ginobili's defense and Bowen's defense. When Bruce shuts down his guy for the first time in five games, you immediately forget about the past four crappy performances and laud him for being the best defender in the league who's still got plenty in the tank. When Ginobili has one subpar defensive game after four great outings, you blast him as a defensive liability.

Granted, Bowen draws tougher defensive match-ups than Manu night in and night out, but it's without question that Ginobili has been the more consistent defender, in terms of effort and performance, this season. Bowen has been completely hit or miss and that's why his minutes fluctuate so much.

[timvp]

Oh geez here we go. You have this obsession with picking on Ginobili's defense, even though he doesn't get scored upon anymore than any other shooting guard in the league. I swear, TimVP, you are a total hypocrite when it comes to Ginobili's defense and Bowen's defense. When Bruce shuts down his guy for the first time in five games, you immediately forget about the past four crappy performances and laud him for being the best defender in the league who's still got plenty in the tank. When Ginobili has one subpar defensive game after four great outings, you blast him as a defensive liability.

Granted, Bowen draws tougher defensive match-ups than Manu night in and night out, but it's without question that Ginobili has been the more consistent defender, in terms of effort and performance, this season. Bowen has been completely hit or miss and that's why his minutes fluctuate so much.Wow. I needed a laugh. This post delivered. Thanks :tu

I don't even know where to begin. I guess first of all, any Spurs fan worth their salt knows that Ginobili isn't a very good one-on-one defender. I mean, when Jacque Vaughn switches to Ray Allen so Ginobili can attempt to hide against Rajon Rondo, that should clue in the most stubborn of Ginobili homers.

Every game, Ginobili is put against the weakest offensive player possible. The reason is twofold: first he's not a one-on-one defensive stopper by any stretch of the imagination and secondly he's a great help defender. If you put Manu on a scrub, he can single handedly disrupt the opponent's entire offensive flow.

This has been the case with Ginobili his entire time with the Spurs. Pop plays to his defensive strengths and covers his weaknesses. Pop does the same with every player.

And Ginobili a more consistent defender than Bowen? That's hysterical. Ginobili himself would say you are crazy for making that statement. Bowen has had some bad games this year -- just like he's had every year. You can't shut down superstar scorers every night but Bowen does a good job of trying.

Oh and regarding Bowen, his minutes aren't fluctuating any more than they have in recent years. In fact, he's averaging more minutes this year than he did last year. Bowen's minutes, like always, depend highly on matchups. In games like tonight against a team without a perimeter scorer, Bowen doesn't need to play too much. It's not a matter of Bowen not playing good defense and getting benched, it's a matter of matchups.

Overall, Ginobili's defense this year has been decent to good. He went through a stretch where he wasn't playing very good defense but has stepped it up for the most part -- particularly on the Rodeo Road Trip (outside of the Boston game). However, I'd challenge you to name some players who he has shut down. It's easy for a Ginobili fan to talk trash about Bowen when Ginobili is almost always guarding non-scoring threats.

I'd like you to name some players Ginobili has shut down recently. I'd also like you to list the recent games that Bowen has been benched due to defensive inconsistency or whatever you want to call it. If you are going to have a meltdown, at least bring some facts and examples to the table.

Thanks again.

[urunobili]

Every game, Ginobili is put against the weakest offensive player possible. The reason is twofold: first he's not a one-on-one defensive stopper by any stretch of the imagination and secondly he's a great help defender. If you put Manu on a scrub, he can single handedly disrupt the opponent's entire offensive flow.

This has been the case with Ginobili his entire time with the Spurs. Pop plays to his defensive strengths and covers his weaknesses. Pop does the same with every player.

how quickly we forget about who is Bruce's replacement assignment on Lebron and Kobe... Udoka just came in this year... :reading

[roycrikside]

Bowen got benched against Kobe, he sucked that game. He was none too good against Pierce either. In fact, we had a stretch a couple weeks back where he didn't play over 26 minutes like four of five games. Why? Because when he was in there, he wasn't doing the job. Peja lit him up, Kirilenko, Durant...

Face it, he just hasn't had a very good season, and at 36 he could be just about done. I never said Manu was doing a better defensive job than him this year, I just said more consistent. I can't accept that Bruce is allowed to have "off" games against some guys. Screw that. Defense is his ONLY job. It's why he's on the roster. Manu can have a bad defensive game and make it up on the other end, or have a bad shooting night but have a bunch of assists and steals or whatever (like the LA game). Bruce has one damn thing to worry about, so not being focused is inexcusable. Bowen has quite the luxury of being an NBA player where the coaches don't give a shit if he never scores a single point. Not many players get such freedom. The least he can do is earn his minutes. If you want to analyze why the Spurs are giving up a higher shooting % this year than last, look no further than #12.

[timvp]

Bowen got benched against Kobe, he sucked that game.You might want to be more specific. :lol

Bowen dominated Kobe in their first matchup. In their second matchup, Bowen outplayed him again. In fact, Bowen would have led the Spurs to victory if Manu would have shown up that game.

In their last matchup, Bowen played 23 minutes in the win and had a +/- of +11. Let's pretend he "sucked", though. So in three games against Kobe this season, Bowen has dominated him once, outplayed him a second time and "sucked" a third time. That looks like a good season so far to me. Unless you have a suggestion of who to go out and replace Bowen with who will be able to dominate Kobe each and every night out.

I'm all ears if you have such a suggestion.



He was none too good against Pierce either.As opposed to defensive superstar Manu who shut Pierce down.

Good call.


In fact, we had a stretch a couple weeks back where he didn't play over 26 minutes like four of five games.He also had a stretch of games a couple weeks ago where he played 34+ minutes in six out of seven games.



Why? Because when he was in there, he wasn't doing the job. Peja lit him up, Kirilenko, Durant...He had a bad game against Peja but Kirilenko and Durant was mostly against Manu. And the reason Bowen wasn't playing more was because that was a stretch of games that the Spurs offense was horrible and Pop was trying to get more offense onto the court.


Face it, he just hasn't had a very good season,On a whole, Bowen has played his role well this season. He's had some games where he wasn't successful in slowing down the superstar he's going against, but that happens to every defensive stopper. If there's a defensive stopper out there who shuts down his opponent every night out, again I'm all ears. The Spurs need to get that guy on their team.


and at 36 he could be just about done.There's no "could" about it. At 36, Bowen is almost done. I don't think his play has dropped off yet but it will within the next year or two.


I never said Manu was doing a better defensive job than him this year, I just said more consistent.More consistent how? When placed on non-scorers and the non-scorers don't score, is that a victory that counts towards his consistent total? Ginobili wasn't playing defense for a couple week stretch earlier in the season but few Spurs fans noticed because he wasn't guarding anyone of note.


I can't accept that Bruce is allowed to have "off" games against some guys. Screw that. Defense is his ONLY job. It's why he's on the roster. :lmao :lmao

So defensive perimeter stoppers who go against the best player on the other team every night aren't allowed to have any "off" games? That's the funniest point I've ever seen anyone try to make in SpursTalk history.

I guess defensive stoppers are supposed to shut down their opponent every night out. I'm sure if Ginobili got to defend superstars every night out that he'd shut those superstars down nightly. Right?

Of course.


Manu can have a bad defensive game and make it up on the other end, or have a bad shooting night but have a bunch of assists and steals or whatever (like the LA game).Yes, obviously Manu never has a bad game. He's God's gift to the Spurs. Unlike that freeloader Bowen.

Good call.


Bruce has one damn thing to worry about, so not being focused is inexcusable. Bowen has quite the luxury of being an NBA player where the coaches don't give a shit if he never scores a single point. Not many players get such freedom. The least he can do is earn his minutes.Exactly. That scrub Bowen should never let his man score a point. That's his only job. He should just give all his championship rings to Manu AKA The True Champion.

Another simply marvelous point.


If you want to analyze why the Spurs are giving up a higher shooting % this year than last, look no further than #12.Bowen's defense hasn't fallen off, especially compared to last season. You act like there's a player in NBA history who stops their man every night out. The offensive superstars who Bowen routinely guard *gasp* sometimes play like offensive superstars. You know, like how Pierce played in the first five minutes of the game the other night.

Oh and where's the list of players that defensively consistent Manu has defended well against recently? Notice how you conveniently left that list out of your post :rollin

Also notice how convenient it is that a Manu Fan comes crawling out of the closet after Ginobili explodes a game later. Where was this lame rant after the Celtics game? It's easy for Manu Fan to come out of the closet after Ginobili has a monster game against the Raptors.

It's so amazingly lame when Manu Fan tries to crap all over Bowen's play and legacy on a whole. Bowen has allowed Ginobili to defend nobodies 99% of his NBA life and Manu Fan pays tribute by crapping on Bowen? Brilliant.

Manu Fan is always quick to claim that Manu could do anything Bowen can do ... and then the one game Manu has to guard someone, Pierce destroys him. Pop then switches Manu off onto Rondo and Rondo has a career game. Yet it was all Bowen's fault. Just how last year in the playoffs when the Spurs went against the AI and Carmelo duo and the defensive superstar Manu ended up guarding Steve freakin' Blake. That was obviously another case of Bowen being overrated and Pop not knowing how good Ginobili is defensively, right?

Obviously.

[T Park]

Roycrikside giving a bad name to Manu fans.

Give it up Roy you lost this thing hands down.


BTW, Ginobili has never made a defensive first or second team.

Whos been on the defensive first teams for how many years?

Goodnight Now.

[icem]

no way we should have lost this game without KG AND PERKINS being out. their two starting big men were out, they never had anyone in the game above 6'8 down low, and we couldn't dominate them inside when we have tim duncan ? that is pathetic. i dont give a damn if tony parker is out, the spurs just didnt bring it, especially on defense.

[ShoogarBear]

The CoM always oversteps its bounds when it starts talking about Manu's defense.

[T Park]

Yes I know - you are right as usual. Also I agree that I'm ahead.


Yours Sincierly, fuckface

Don't be so darn testy.

I'm not saying I'm right, its just your point of Oberto NOT being physical has no merit. Oberto is a very physical center.