If the Mavs need Harris this badly, they aren't a contender [Archive]

monosylab1k

02-11-2008, 10:32 PM

If we're going to make a move for this season, Kidd is the way to go. Even if we give up 4 guys for him, our basketball IQ quadruples. I'm really starting to believe we're the dumbest team in the NBA. Nobody plays "smart" on this team, and I think the reason Avery has such a simplistic isolation offense is because they just don't have the brainpower to run anything more complex.

But we either say "fuck it, let's go for a title right now" and get Kidd, or we just suffer with this shit until the offseason and blow it all up. Making a move for a backup PG just isn't going to cut it. Mike Miller is nice but does he put us over the top? He's another shooter, and while he has some ability to get to the basket, it's doubtful he'll have much of a chance to do that here.

Findog

02-11-2008, 10:35 PM

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2159/2258187513_e98984a869_o.jpg

Spurs fans would love this.

Findog

02-11-2008, 10:37 PM

I tried doing one with Josh AND Devin + matching salaries, just to see if it works under the cap, but Devin has a PPP, so I couldn't do it. That's the most feasible option, and I don't know why the Nets take Terry and Stack off our hands. Kidd isn't worth that.

Kidd simply isn't a realistic option, not for us or Jersey.

Shank

02-11-2008, 10:37 PM

They either make a big move before the deadline or they ride into the playoffs based solely on their potential to beat some of the better teams and bow out in the 2nd round. Then what? Trot this same shit out next year so we can be duped again? The fanbase will not stand for it. Isn't the point to win a title? How can you say that this current build of the Mavericks is suited to do just that? There's no heart, no fire, no balls and no sense of urgency to get anything done. Either do what it's going to take to get to the promised land, or we're all doing nothing but jerking off on each other.

Now, I say this and watch them turn around and win against Portland and Phoenix in a B2B this week.

What a fucking headache these guys are.

lurker

02-11-2008, 10:40 PM

Good lord. You guys are starting to sound like the Spurs fans who turn suicidal after every loss.

Findog

02-11-2008, 10:42 PM

They either make a big move before the deadline or they ride into the playoffs based solely on their potential to beat some of the better teams and bow out in the 2nd round. Then what? Trot this same shit out next year so we can be duped again?

I highly doubt they stand pat in the offseason after a third straight flameout.

The fanbase will not stand for it.

I guarantee you Cuban won't either.

Isn't the point to win a title?

Nobody is a bigger Kidd fan than me. I've only come close once to throwing in the towel on being a Mavs fan and it was the day he was traded. I don't think losing those four guys for him makes us better. Bringing in Kidd for what it would take solves one problem, it creates two or three others. Kidd wants an extension too, if we don't give him one, does he half-ass it like he does now in Jersey? Does bringing in Kidd in exchange for our starting point, our 6th man, our promising power forward and Stack equal a slam dunk like Rasheed to the Pistons? No, it doesn't.

How can you say that this current build of the Mavericks is suited to do just that?

Just about every Western team is flawed. I'm not holding my breath, but I don't see what's feasible right now that makes us better.

Findog

02-11-2008, 10:43 PM

Good lord. You guys are starting to sound like the Spurs fans who turn suicidal after every loss.

I'm not the one advocating a Kidd trade. We lost on the second night of a b2b without Stack, Damp, Devin and Josh in the fourth. BFD.

ElNono

02-11-2008, 11:01 PM

As it's been said plenty of times, you guys just need a leader out there.
Sam Casell will be available soon, and if you can pry it out of Boston's hands, you might be able to get an experienced leader on the court.

td4mvp21

02-11-2008, 11:07 PM

Holmes_Fans

02-11-2008, 11:20 PM

If this was later in the season I would be freaking out. Devin, Stack and Damp are all out right now, and Howard went out with a back problem in the game today.

BonnerDynasty

02-11-2008, 11:21 PM

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2159/2258187513_e98984a869_o.jpg

Spurs fans would love this.

Pull the trigger!

Doooooo it.

san antonio spurs

02-11-2008, 11:37 PM

If the Mavs make 13 games winning streak mavs fans will be back to normal. You have a good team and don't need major move at all.

BillsCarnage

02-11-2008, 11:42 PM

Good lord. You guys are starting to sound like the Spurs fans who turn suicidal after every loss.

Very true. However, just like the Suns, the Mavs' season ended on a rather sour note last year. Neither team seems to have that edge or moxy they had last season.

LakeShow

02-12-2008, 12:04 AM

I have to agree with you guys. I know it's the regular season and I know it doesn't mean much but you still have to play the game. Laying down is a bad habit to get into. I'm not saying the Mavs laid down and I didn't see the game but it is no way in hell the Mavs should be missing Harris so much when you have Dirk and Howard. It's no excuse! I hate to say it but that Mavs team is shot! It's time for the Mavs to make a big time move or they'll join the lower echelon of teams in the NBA.

Findog

02-12-2008, 12:07 AM

I have to agree with you guys. I know it's the regular season and I know it doesn't mean much but you still have to play the game. Laying down is a bad habit to get into. I'm not saying the Mavs laid down and I didn't see the game but it is no way in hell the Mavs should be missing Harris so much when you have Dirk and Howard.

Stack and Dampier were also out, and Josh went out early in the fourth with a back injury when the game was still in doubt. Crunch time was Dirk, Terry, Barea, Eddie Jones and Diop.

LakeShow

02-12-2008, 12:09 AM

Stack and Dampier were also out, and Josh went out early in the fourth with a back injury when the game was still in doubt. Crunch time was Dirk, Terry, Barea, Eddie Jones and Diop.

Oh ok, I take that back. That's 3 starters! That's nothing to be concerned with but I still think they should make a move.

Findog

02-12-2008, 12:14 AM

Oh ok, I take that back. That's 3 starters! That's nothing to be concerned with but I still think they should make a move.

I agree, they could use a backup PG as injury insurance for Devin, hope against hope that Cassell gets bought out, or if not, swing something for his backup Brevin Knight. Otherwise, go after Mike Miller, Wally S or Kurt Thomas. This team could use an actual legitimate two or another interior big. Kidd isn't worth what it would cost. I wouldn't "blow it up" until the offseason. I feel this team has earned "one more chance." I'm not overly optimistic, but I don't see a clear frontrunner in the West, other than San Antonio by default. Each team has its flaws.

LakeShow

02-12-2008, 12:27 AM

I agree, they could use a backup PG as injury insurance for Devin, hope against hope that Cassell gets bought out, or if not, swing something for his backup Brevin Knight. Otherwise, go after Mike Miller, Wally S or Kurt Thomas. This team could use an actual legitimate two or another interior big. Kidd isn't worth what it would cost. I wouldn't "blow it up" until the offseason. I feel this team has earned "one more chance." I'm not overly optimistic, but I don't see a clear frontrunner in the West, other than San Antonio by default. Each team has its flaws.

I don't know what the fascination is with Jason Kidd at that price. It's not worth it, imo. If the Mavs got Kidd, who do you have that can run with him? You don't have a high flyier and those are the players that work best with Kidd. So I really don't see the reasoning in that. I personally think the Mavs are going to need a Big. Someone that will play the low post all the time. I really don't know what Dirk is doing now a days but I know he won't play the post in the playoffs.

Findog

02-12-2008, 12:30 AM

I don't know what the fascination is with Jason Kidd at that price. It's not worth it, imo. If the Mavs got Kidd, who do you have that can run with him? You don't have a high flyier and those are the players that work best with Kidd. So I really don't see the reasoning in that. I personally think the Mavs are going to need a Big. Someone that will play the low post all the time. I really don't know what Dirk is doing now a days but I know he won't play the post in the playoffs.

I really like Kurt Thomas and I can't see how he fits into Seattle's plans long-term. Not only will Dirk not play the post in the playoffs, but he shouldn't be baited into posting up smaller guys when the helpside defender will always rotate over to block his path to the basket. It isn't about him lacking physical courage or an unwillingness to go to the basket, he has very mediocre post moves. He's at his best when he gets the ball on the wing and takes a two-step pull-up jumper before the defense has a chance to converge on him. He's a two in a four's body and the Mavs need to take advantage of that. Tim Duncan has a decent jumper, but you won't see him on the elbow or the high post in the playoffs.

Findog

02-12-2008, 12:32 AM

Oh, and Wally S makes 12 million a year, so fuck that. And I don't know how we can get Kurt Thomas either since he makes $8 million and his deal comes off the book this summer. We just don't have the assets rebuilding teams want or need.

LakeShow

02-12-2008, 12:44 AM

Findog

02-12-2008, 12:47 AM

Wally's not the answer. Tell the mental midget (Cuban) to fork over some dollars! :)

People complain about how lopsided the Gasol to Lakers trade was, but an expiring contract like Kwame Brown is a valuable asset in a trade. It's obvious Dallas doesn't have much in the way of options because they have nothing like that to offer other teams.

ludda

02-12-2008, 12:50 AM

Findog

02-12-2008, 12:51 AM

OT and has nothing to do with this game, but why does Josh Howard always play only half a game? I read on article on his huge dropoff in stats from the 1st to the 2nd half. Mavs still too dependent on Dirk, not a good sign since teams are better at defending him now.

Still trying to figure that one out myself. The Mavs always go to him early, he's always the #1 option in the first quarter, so maybe it's just a huge disparity because they over-rely on him in the first half.

Findog

02-12-2008, 12:53 AM

Mavs still too dependent on Dirk, not a good sign since teams are better at defending him now.

Well, they've been trying to not use him as predictably, since the Warriors simply denied him where he liked the ball best:

http://www.mavsmoneyball.com/story/2008/2/11/23739/2689

A subtle change to the Mavericks offense this year has been how Dirk has been positioned on offense. One of the keys to his MVP season was how the Mavericks offense ran picks and isolations for Dirk at the elbows and around the area of the free throw line. His incredible shooting touch over smaller defenders and ability to drive past bigger men led to his amazing season. Unfortunately, the consistency in the Mavs offense also made it easier to disrupt Dirk's game for aggressive defenses. Let's take a look at how the Mavs have made adjustments to Dirk's positioning to counter the "Golden State" defense.

First of all, let's look at the offensive area from the free throw line to the elbows. Is this truly Dirk's comfort zone? Well, outside of layups and dunks, the single spot on the court where Dirk took the most attempts last season was the right elbow, and he made an amazing 51% of his shots from there. In fact, the whole zone from right elbow to left elbow accounted for over 1 out of every 4 shots Dirk took during the 2006-2007 season. With layups and dunks accounting for another 24% of his attempts, it wouldn't take a genius to come up with the following defensive scheme: Keep Dirk out of the free throw line extended area and keep him out of the paint. Doing so cuts out roughly the best 50% of Dirk's game.

While this is a simplification, the above is what Golden State did last year by denying Dirk the entry pass at the elbow and doubling him when he did get the ball so he couldn't drive the lane.

Fast forward to this year, and let's look at how the positioning of Dirk's shot attempts have changed. Learning from Golden State, a logical goal would be to move Dirk around the floor, varying his point of attack so that Golden State's defense would have been ineffective. We should also note that by asking more of Dirk, it is possible we would cut down on his effectiveness, but we would theoretically be okay with that if it led to our offense being tougher to shut down overall.

So far this year, the area of attack that has seen the biggest drop in shot attempts has been--you guessed it--the free throw line extended, which is exactly as we would expect from a team learning from its mistakes. Overall, Dirk's attempts from this former comfort zone have dropped roughly 5%. Interestingly, the percentage of dunks and layups hasn't changed much (23.6% last year, 23.3% this year), which indicates this is more of a systemic change than Dirk being more aggressive at driving off the dribble.

So where are those former shots from the elbow coming from? Interestingly, they are coming from the baseline. Dirk's shots from each baseline have gone up 5.3%, which accounts for the decrease from the elbow and more. In other words, Dirk's game is moving deeper into the half court, even though it is not necessarily moving him closer to the paint. This is a big indicator that Dirk hasn't been asked to develop a post game over the first half of the year--he was asked to work on varying his point of attack and improving his passing out of double teams.

It will remain to be seen if this and other subtle changes to the Dallas offense will make them more formidable in the playoffs, but one thing can't be denied: The Mavs staff realized that part of the problem in the 2007 playoffs was Dirk's predictable game, and they are making changes to address that in 2008.

Findog

02-12-2008, 01:01 AM

The Mavs best shot at adding somebody before the deadline is to get the original team to buy that player out, then the Mavs sign them to their full MLE to ease the original team's salary cap burden:

http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/story/413486.html

Findog

02-12-2008, 02:46 AM

I don't understand why you guys are always so down on the Mavericks? They beat the good teams, they are 15-10 against .500+ teams. Better than my Spurs' 11-14. They play defense and have a bunch of weapons. Devin is a lot to the Mavs, I can see that more now than ever. I don't think you guys should worry too much, I still (unfortunately) see the Mavs making it to the Western Conference Finals. The only questionable teams against them are the Lakers and the Spurs, IMO. They have weaknesses just like every other good team in the West.

Well, mono has a very good point about how night and day it is with Devin out of the lineup. I think he means it as a slight against Devin, while I think he's having a breakout year and it's obvious how good he's become. The main thing is that throughout his career he has been injury-prone and our chances of doing something in the playoffs now hinge on his health from April to June.

This team has had only a few stretches where it has looked like the team from the past two years, so I know they have it in them. It's easy to lose perspective over a loss like this when you're missing three starters and one of your top reserves. But I think one thing is made clear: we do need another scorer, or a backup for Devin if he gets injured again.

mavsfan1000

02-12-2008, 07:13 AM

I say it's not as much how good Harris is as how bad Terry has become. Harris is needed for this team to have a chance. Terry should not be starting.

stretch

02-12-2008, 09:43 AM

It would definitely be nice to make a move or something to get someone here like Mike Miller, Corey Maggette, Brevin Knight, or Sam Cassell. If we could make a move to get both Knight and Maggette, I would be happy as can be.

monosylab1k

02-12-2008, 10:02 AM

This team needs leadership. They obviously aren't getting that from Dirk. He's playing the "team player" card to a fault, and I'm starting to think that he just doesn't have it in him. 2006 was a flash in the pan, and we're never going to see that Dirk again.

It's time to make a move. I don't give a flying fuck that we didn't have Harris or Stackhouse or fucking Dampier. If we have Dirk we should have a shot, especially against a shit team like Philadelphia.

It's time for Mavs fans to wake up. Dirk is not a leader, Avery is a "rah-rah" coach who has little to offer as far as strategy, and this team is in SERIOUS TROUBLE. We're skating by on talent, but that won't work in the playoffs.

Jason Kidd provides leadership and intelligence, and this team can rally around him. The pressure will be off Dirk completely. Avery can go back to his "rah-rah" ways (of which he is excellent at), and Kidd can run the offense. I realize Findog will continue to post his graphic showing the worst trade scenario possible, but a deal can be made for Kidd and it doesn't have to be that.

It just depends. Do we want to go for a title this year, or are we content with getting our ass beat by the Lakers in the 2nd round?

stretch

02-12-2008, 10:13 AM

How about...

Clippers get - Ager, Fazekas, Terry, Jones, draft picks

Mavericks get - Maggette, Cassell

works too.

m33p0

02-12-2008, 10:28 AM

if you're giving away brandon bass, could we have him? we'll give you elson for him if you want. :D

stretch

02-12-2008, 10:31 AM

if you're giving away brandon bass, could we have him? we'll give you elson for him if you want. :D
haha, Bass was definitley one of the better FA steals this year. I always liked him back when he was in college and always wondered why he never played much in NO. I'm glad he finally got his chance. I see him as being a 10-15 ppg 8 rpg player in the years to come.

monosylab1k

02-12-2008, 10:33 AM

Harris, Dampier, George, & picks for Kidd works. They get a promising PG, expiring contract, and a true center. We get a player with some balls.

fitzgerald

02-12-2008, 11:32 AM

This team needs a shakeup. If they think they can turn it on during the playoffs, they will be sadly mistaken. Spurs can do it because they are proven winners and champions. Mavs are just confused. This is Avery's last chance. He will not be here next year if they fail again. I guarantee it.

ratm1221

02-12-2008, 11:47 AM

monosylab1k

02-12-2008, 11:54 AM

Dude, STFU.

Mavs are 34-17 and the 3rd seed even with all of the injuries this year. If there is anyone we need to trade it's you.

Mav's lose in Finals against underdog Miami.
Mav's exit first round to underdog Goldenstate after a 67 win season.
Patriots lose to underdog Giants after going 18-0.

Common factor: Mono as a fan.

Do us a favor and go root for the Celtics.
This guy really knows his sports. "all of the injuries"? oh you mean the injuries to Harris and Dampier and Stackhouse and every other ROLE PLAYER on the team.

Are the Lakers saying "aw shit we are FUCKED! Ronny Turiaf is gonna be out for two weeks!!!!! How in the fuck can we expect to beat the Philadelphia 76ers without Ronny Fucking Turiaf??!?!?!?!?!?!?!" No.

So take your weak shit about "injuries" and shove em right up your fucking ass you idiot. Unless it's Dirk or Howard, injuries are no excuse.

If getting raped by Detroit, New Jersey, & Philadelphia in a little over a week is good enough for you, then have fun in your pom-pom waving dumbass bliss. I expect a little better, as does any good Mavs fan out there.

Do us all a favor and stick to making threads in the NFL forum that nobody cares about, it's what you do best.

ratm1221

02-12-2008, 12:00 PM

This guy really knows his sports. "all of the injuries"? oh you mean the injuries to Harris and Dampier and Stackhouse and every other ROLE PLAYER on the team.

Are the Lakers saying "aw shit we are FUCKED! Ronny Turiaf is gonna be out for two weeks!!!!!" No.

So take your weak shit about "injuries" and shove em right up your fucking ass you idiot. Unless it's Dirk or Howard, injuries are no excuse.

If getting raped by Detroit, New Jersey, & Philadelphia in a little over a week is good enough for you, then have fun in your pom-pom waving dumbass bliss. I expect a little better.

Good point. No, the Lakers aren't saying shit and they have the EXACT SAME RECORD AS US. Do you see them whining like a big pussy over 34-17? Stop being such a cry baby. Shit. Like I said, go jump on the the Boston Celtics bandwagon, you piece of shit. Go jinx them this year.

monosylab1k

02-12-2008, 12:01 PM

Good point. No, the Lakers aren't saying shit and they have the EXACT SAME RECORD AS US. Do you see them whining like a big pussy over 34-17?
No, they just decided to make a trade for Pau Gasol. Nice one fuckhead.

Purple & Gold

02-12-2008, 12:03 PM

Mavs need a center. Someone that can score in the post.

ratm1221

02-12-2008, 12:09 PM

No, they just decided to make a trade for Pau Gasol. Nice one fuckhead.

But you didn't see any fair-weather fans like you jumping ship before they made the trade. Dumbass.

Jason Kidd is old as dirt and Nets want too much for him. Only way he's going to another team is after his contract expires with the Nets. But keep wishing away. Maybe if you keep crying enough it will come true. :cry

I wonder how swollen your face is after crying about the Pats loss, and now crying about this stupid shit. I thought you said you were done with sports for a while? Go away.

monosylab1k

02-12-2008, 12:16 PM

But you didn't see any fair-weather fans like you jumping ship before they made the trade. Dumbass.

Jason Kidd is old as dirt and Nets want too much for him. Only way he's going to another team is after his contract expires with the Nets. But keep wishing away. Maybe if you keep crying enough it will come true. :cry

I wonder how swollen your face is after crying about the Pats loss, and now crying about this stupid shit. I thought you said you were done with sports for a while? Go away.
Great analysis of the Mavs current situation. You really know your sports.

Seriously, if you're going to show everybody that you're a shit for brains with no clue what the fuck you're talking about, just do us all a favor and don't post here. Post at your pom-pom waving, take it up the ass from Dirk Mavs Forum where dissenting opinions are prohibited. Over there they'd love your "This team rulez!!!! I know nothing about what's going on, so I'll just talk shit about fans!!!! GO Devean George we could never trade that guy he rulez!!!!!"

thispego

02-12-2008, 12:20 PM

Devin Harris isn't so great of a player that a championship-level team should ever be lost without him.

I'm starting to drink the SpursDynasty Kool-Aid. The Mavs aren't true contenders, plain and simple. When you play with such low basketball IQ at all times, and insist on jacking up jumpers all night, you aren't a contender.

So either we make some moves to put us into contender status, or just blow this team the fuck up.
agree 110%

ElNono

02-12-2008, 12:55 PM

But you didn't see any fair-weather fans like you jumping ship before they made the trade. Dumbass.

Do you honestly think the Lakers thought they had a shot at a championship before that trade?

himat

02-12-2008, 01:01 PM

This is the same group that reached the 06 Finals and knocked of the Spurs on the way. The Mavs are contenders only if they listen to their coach. Avery Johnson is the only one who has one a championship in that group and he is the only tough guy on that team.

ratm1221

02-12-2008, 01:28 PM

Great analysis of the Mavs current situation. You really know your sports.

Seriously, if you're going to show everybody that you're a shit for brains with no clue what the fuck you're talking about, just do us all a favor and don't post here. Post at your pom-pom waving, take it up the ass from Dirk Mavs Forum where dissenting opinions are prohibited. Over there they'd love your "This team rulez!!!! I know nothing about what's going on, so I'll just talk shit about fans!!!! GO Devean George we could never trade that guy he rulez!!!!!"

I love how Mono always says "You know nothing about sports", followed by the stupidest shit-posts I've ever heard. You need to get that sand out of your vagina. Didn't you tell me I knew nothing about sports when I said that Giants have a shot a beating the Pats? :blah

I'll make you eat your words if the Mavs tear through the playoffs with this team without making trades just like I said I'd make you eat your words when the Giants beat the Pats.

monosylab1k

02-12-2008, 01:36 PM

Didn't you tell me I knew nothing about sports when I said that Giants have a shot a beating the Pats?
No, I said that after you compared the one-and-done Cowboys to the Patriots. Again, you have no clue what the fuck you're talking about.

Again, great job backing up your take on the Mavs. Is shit-talking all you do? I love talking shit, but at least I can back my shit up with some informed opinions every so often. My entire posting history isn't just "Choke on a dick Spurs fans!" over and over.

Now go get your fucking shinebox and quit making an ass of yourself. The next time you have something worthwhile to say about the Mavericks will be the first time. And no, sorry, but "Dirk rulez! Damp rulez! We're the best ever like Romo! Eat shit SpursDynasty!" isn't worthwhile.

monosylab1k

02-12-2008, 01:38 PM

I love how Mono always says "You know nothing about sports", followed by the stupidest shit-posts I've ever heard.
Didn't realize this forum was equipped with audio. Are you fuckin retarded?

ratm1221

02-12-2008, 02:00 PM

No, I said that after you compared the one-and-done Cowboys to the Patriots. Again, you have no clue what the fuck you're talking about.

Again, great job backing up your take on the Mavs. Is shit-talking all you do? I love talking shit, but at least I can back my shit up with some informed opinions every so often. My entire posting history isn't just "Choke on a dick Spurs fans!" over and over.

Now go get your fucking shinebox and quit making an ass of yourself. The next time you have something worthwhile to say about the Mavericks will be the first time. And no, sorry, but "Dirk rulez! Damp rulez! We're the best ever like Romo! Eat shit SpursDynasty!" isn't worthwhile.

You are beyond a dumbass.

This is the same team that made it to the Finals in 06 and won 67 games in 07 with the addition of Brandon Bass which is a big improvement to our team and a couple of defensive players. Harris is better this year than he has ever been. If you can't see that your blind. The Mavericks haven't all been healthy and although you think that the only thing that effects a professional basketball team is the superstars being healthy, I don't agree. If you knew anything about sports you would know that every piece matters. It's like a finely tuned machine. If any piece is not functioning properly, it throws the whole thing out of whack. If that wasn't the case they'd just keep Dirk and Josh and surround the team with homeless people off the street. You don't give Damp credit and if anyone tries to say anything to you they "think he's an allstar". He does a lot of dirty work that you don't pay attention to. Harris for Kidd is just plain dumb. Harris is a rising superstar at the beginning of his career and Kidd is a 35 year old at the end of his career. The team is fine, and I'm tired of your jump-ship mentality when everything isn't going perfect. You're the same dumbass that said trade Dirk after the 1st round exit last year. So this BS your talking will go away when the Mavs start playing good again, just like your trade Dirk BS did. Hence, you are a fair-weather fan. You only back the team when they are winning every game.

ElNono

02-12-2008, 02:03 PM

This is the same team that choked in the Finals in 06 and won 67 games in 07 and choked in the first round

There, I fixed it for you.

ratm1221

02-12-2008, 02:08 PM

There, I fixed it for you.

Then what does that make the Spurs for getting eliminated by some chokers?

ratm1221

02-12-2008, 02:10 PM

Then what does that make the Spurs for getting eliminated by some chokers?

Actually let me answer that for you and save you some time.

"4 time world champions" :rolleyes

ElNono

02-12-2008, 02:17 PM

Then what does that make the Spurs for getting eliminated by some chokers?

Maybe it was not our year to win it all. It has happened before.
I'll say we recovered pretty well. We actually have a leader or two in our team that know what it takes to go all the way.
See, that's where the difference is. Maybe we won't win it this year, but we know the core can takes us all the way. With Dallas, you know you'll make the playoffs, but do you have a leader to take you all the way? I assert that you do not. And I think that's what your team needs the most (I'm not necessarily saying you need JKidd. A Casell might be enough).

ratm1221

02-12-2008, 02:22 PM

Maybe it was not our year to win it all. It has happened before.
I'll say we recovered pretty well. We actually have a leader or two in our team that know what it takes to go all the way.
See, that's where the difference is. Maybe we won't win it this year, but we know the core can takes us all the way. With Dallas, you know you'll make the playoffs, but do you have a leader to take you all the way? I assert that you do not. And I think that's what your team needs the most (I'm not necessarily saying you need JKidd. A Casell might be enough).

Fair enough, but I still wouldn't give up Harris. Terry and/or Stackhouse maybe, but not Harris.

ElNono

02-12-2008, 02:23 PM

Actually let me answer that for you and save you some time.

"4 time world champions" :rolleyes

Listen, I could pull the championship card, but it's just not what this thread is about. Your current team leaders are Dirk and Howard. Howard has turned into a nice, well rounded player, but I think he's still young and not battle-tested enough to provide leadership. Dirk is another great talent, but he's not a leader, even though Avery really tried hard last year to make him that. Dirk just has a mental block on that.
Now, I don't think Dallas is a horrible team or anything like that. I actually think they need a minor leadership tweak and they'll be contenders. But if you think everything is peachy with your team as it is, I honestly think you're setting yourself up for another disappointment in the playoffs.

stretch

02-12-2008, 02:24 PM

You are beyond a dumbass.

This is the same team that made it to the Finals in 06 and won 67 games in 07 with the addition of Brandon Bass which is a big improvement to our team and a couple of defensive players. Harris is better this year than he has ever been. If you can't see that your blind. The Mavericks haven't all been healthy and although you think that the only thing that effects a professional basketball team is the superstars being healthy, I don't agree. If you knew anything about sports you would know that every piece matters. It's like a finely tuned machine. If any piece is not functioning properly, it throws the whole thing out of whack. If that wasn't the case they'd just keep Dirk and Josh and surround the team with homeless people off the street. You don't give Damp credit and if anyone tries to say anything to you they "think he's an allstar". He does a lot of dirty work that you don't pay attention to. Harris for Kidd is just plain dumb. Harris is a rising superstar at the beginning of his career and Kidd is a 35 year old at the end of his career. The team is fine, and I'm tired of your jump-ship mentality when everything isn't going perfect. You're the same dumbass that said trade Dirk after the 1st round exit last year. So this BS your talking will go away when the Mavs start playing good again, just like your trade Dirk BS did. Hence, you are a fair-weather fan. You only back the team when they are winning every game.

While I think that this team on paper is better than previous squads, i think the mentality of this team has been somewhat damaged by the two choke jobs, and that other teams around the league have improved much more than the Mavs have improved. I still think that the Mavs will be just fine come playoff time, and will make it at least to the WCF. They seem to play a lot more motivated against the better teams around the league, while they just sit back and do nothing but shoot jumpers against teams that they already know they aren't going to face in the playoffs. But against teams like San Antonio and Phoenix, they attack a LOT more. As long as they make a high seed, and perform well against the playoff teams, I think they will be fine. I would definitely like to see a move though. I would LOVE to make a trade to get Cassell and Maggette in here, or Mike Miller. I'd hate to see Terry go, as he would likely be a part of either trade, but I think that while he has done lots of great things for this team, he has done lots of BAD things for this team as well with his low IQ play.

Findog

02-12-2008, 02:30 PM

Listen, I could pull the championship card, but it's just not what this thread is about. Your current team leaders are Dirk and Howard. Howard has turned into a nice, well rounded player, but I think he's still young and not battle-tested enough to provide leadership. Dirk is another great talent, but he's not a leader, even though Avery really tried hard last year to make him that. Dirk just has a mental block on that.
Now, I don't think Dallas is a horrible team or anything like that. I actually think they need a minor leadership tweak and they'll be contenders. But if you think everything is peachy with your team as it is, I honestly think you're setting yourself up for another disappointment in the playoffs.

What is this amorphous "leadership" crap? Because he doesn't make Knute Rockne speeches, the Mavs can't win a title? Get the fuck out of here. You can't do what the Mavs have done without some form of "leadership" qualities. I can't stand this Dr. Phil pop psychology, it's not the reason the Mavs lost their last two series in the fashion that they did.

The series against Miami featured three games that were won by the Heat by a total of six points. A couple different bounces of the basketball or one less atrocious whistle by Bennett Salvatore and the Mavs are champs. Dirk was awesome in the final two games of that series when he needed to be. Did you know Dirk is 5-0 in Game Sevens? Against Golden State, our starting center was out with a torn rotator cuff and Dirk was hobbled by bone spurs. I bet you won't play the leadership card against Tony Parker for shutting it down with bone spurs, but since his team had no chance to do anything without him, Dirk played on those bone spurs, wasn't as effective, his team was eliminated and he was crucified for it. Manning up because it's the postseason and his team needs him, that's not leadership? That's not setting an example for his teammates? "Leadership" is not why Dallas was eliminated the last two times out.

Findog

02-12-2008, 02:34 PM

Mavs need a center. Someone that can score in the post.

Just a comment on your sig: Since when does Tracy Morgan play for the Lakers? When is he expected back from that knee injury?

monosylab1k

02-12-2008, 02:36 PM

There's teams that grab it by the balls and go win, and there's teams that make excuses for their failures.

Why don't all of you Mavs Homers tell ME which one the Mavs look like right now?

himat

02-12-2008, 02:40 PM

There's teams that grab it by the balls and go win, and there's teams that make excuses for their failures.

Why don't all of you Mavs Homers tell ME which one the Mavs look like right now?

The problem with the Mavs is that there coach is the tough guy. That only works for so long. When there is no tough player the coach gets tuned out.

When the Spurs played Boston the commentators were talking about that. The Spurs don't only have Pop they also have Duncan. The Celtics don't only have Doc Rivers they also have KG. They hold all the players accountable, but I don't see a player like that on the Mavs.

Findog

02-12-2008, 02:41 PM

There's teams that grab it by the balls and go win, and there's teams that make excuses for their failures.

Why don't all of you Mavs Homers tell ME which one the Mavs look like right now?

I'd like to give them one more chance before we make a terrible trade, wreck our cap situation and close our window for a title. I don't know who can possibly argue that that was a title team on display last night, but maybe the results are different if we have three of our starters and one of our top reserves in the fourth quarter.

Cuban made a play for Shaq and you can bet he's trying to improve the team now. "We like our team" is posturing so other clubs don't try to rape us. You want other clubs to know you don't NEED to make a move.

Did you expect to beat the Spurs and Suns two years ago? The Spurs looked like shit at this time last year. Who predicted the Giants would catch fire like they did and roll four straight times in the playoffs? I feel like they've earned one last shot to get it done based on having already beaten a defending champ and made a finals, and having one of the all-time great stretches of basketball the following year. They have it in them. If they fail again, you'll get your wish. There's no shortage of guys who look at the Mavs as a first-class organization and want to play here. And there's no guarantee that Portland, Cleveland, or any of these other teams are going to suddenly dominate the NBA. Dallas itself was proclaimed to be the team of the nineties and look how that turned out.

monosylab1k

02-12-2008, 02:42 PM

I love how Dirk develops "bone spurs" in the Golden State series and that's a valid excuse, but then every Mavs fan scoffs at Spurs fans who say anything about plantar fasciitis.

Sorry but the proof is in the pudding. The Mavs have choked & flamed out two years in a row....say what you will, but they were in prime position to make a title run each time, and failed. Excuses ensue.

Either the Mavs as an organization change this culture of excuse-making or we'll never see a championship here.

monosylab1k

02-12-2008, 02:49 PM

This is the same team that made it to the Finals in 06 and won 67 games in 07 with the addition of Brandon Bass which is a big improvement to our team and a couple of defensive players. Harris is better this year than he has ever been. If you can't see that your blind. The Mavericks haven't all been healthy and although you think that the only thing that effects a professional basketball team is the superstars being healthy, I don't agree. If you knew anything about sports you would know that every piece matters. It's like a finely tuned machine. If any piece is not functioning properly, it throws the whole thing out of whack. If that wasn't the case they'd just keep Dirk and Josh and surround the team with homeless people off the street. You don't give Damp credit and if anyone tries to say anything to you they "think he's an allstar". He does a lot of dirty work that you don't pay attention to. Harris for Kidd is just plain dumb. Harris is a rising superstar at the beginning of his career and Kidd is a 35 year old at the end of his career. The team is fine, and I'm tired of your jump-ship mentality when everything isn't going perfect. You're the same dumbass that said trade Dirk after the 1st round exit last year. So this BS your talking will go away when the Mavs start playing good again, just like your trade Dirk BS did. Hence, you are a fair-weather fan. You only back the team when they are winning every game.

Get back to me when Dirk's cock isn't being shoved into your earhole.

Harris is a superstar? And you fucking for real? What a stupid fuck.

And if "every piece matters" like you claim, then NO THIS IS NOT THE SAME TEAM THAT MADE IT TO THE FINALS. Last I checked, Marquis Daniels, Adrian Griffin, and Keith Van Horn aren't on the team anymore. Every piece matters.

Findog

02-12-2008, 02:50 PM

The bone spurs happened against Milwaukee a month before the season ended. He was never the same after that. They DNP'ed him three times before the season ended to rest him. PF is no joke either.

What is your alternative? Trade for Kidd and gut the roster? The only contracts we have to make it work is Terry and Stack, if you're Rod Thorn, do you take those contracts back?

They ARE trying to make a move, but they're not going to be blabbing about it constantly. "We like our team" is just posturing so they don't cultivate an air of desperation. Don't be surprised if they use their full MLE for somebody who gets bought out.

monosylab1k

02-12-2008, 03:00 PM

What is your alternative? Trade for Kidd and gut the roster? The only contracts we have to make it work is Terry and Stack, if you're Rod Thorn, do you take those contracts back?
There's more options than just Kidd. A lot of trade possibilities can work if we give up Devin Harris. And somehow Harris, after half a good season, has skyrocketed from "potential bust" to "untouchable".............REALLY???? THAT QUICK?????

So we're going to pass on many potential trades for a guy that, not six months ago, we were all bitching that he may never pan out? In half a season he is now too valuable to trade? are you fucking kidding me?

Findog

02-12-2008, 03:06 PM

There's more options than just Kidd. A lot of trade possibilities can work if we give up Devin Harris. And somehow Harris, after half a good season, has skyrocketed from "potential bust" to "untouchable".............REALLY???? THAT QUICK?????

So we're going to pass on many potential trades for a guy that, not six months ago, we were all bitching that he may never pan out? In half a season he is now too valuable to trade? are you fucking kidding me?

I don't think this team is as good as it was the past two years, and it's frustrating to watch the Lakers get better with Gasol and the Suns go in an interesting direction and make a huge splash with Shaq, but no, I don't think Harris is worth giving up for Kidd. Who do you want guarding the Pauls, Nashes, Iversons, Parkers and Williamses in the playoffs, Kidd or Harris? You can't deny he's a very good perimeter defender, his outside shooting is much better, and he creates major pressure on a defense with his ability to get to the rim. There's no surprise in my mind that we're struggling without him. It's on Donnie and Avery to find a competent backup for him. I don't think any player is untouchable, Dirk, Josh, Devin, or all the way down to Nick Van Fazekas, but IMO Kidd is not worth giving up Devin. Six months ago was six months ago. It's a little silly to call him a "superstar" or "All Star" but PG is not a problem for this team. Backup PG is.

ElNono

02-12-2008, 03:10 PM

What is this amorphous "leadership" crap? Because he doesn't make Knute Rockne speeches, the Mavs can't win a title? Get the fuck out of here. You can't do what the Mavs have done without some form of "leadership" qualities. I can't stand this Dr. Phil pop psychology, it's not the reason the Mavs lost their last two series in the fashion that they did.

What have they done? I mean, really? They reached the Finals once. That's all they've done. They've been in the WCF before with Nash and Nellie.

Leaders lead by example. They ask for and get the ball and make things happen. They provide the best when the best is needed.
They have balls to take your team through thick and thin.
Dirk has come a long way since he got into the league, and even though Avery (an actual leader, who unfortunately cannot play) has tried hard to make him into a leader, he just doesn't have it in him. I mean, if you want to see one more flameout before you're convinced, that's fine by me.

The series against Miami featured three games that were won by the Heat by a total of six points. A couple different bounces of the basketball or one less atrocious whistle by Bennett Salvatore and the Mavs are champs. Dirk was awesome in the final two games of that series when he needed to be. Did you know Dirk is 5-0 in Game Sevens? Against Golden State, our starting center was out with a torn rotator cuff and Dirk was hobbled by bone spurs. I bet you won't play the leadership card against Tony Parker for shutting it down with bone spurs, but since his team had no chance to do anything without him, Dirk played on those bone spurs, wasn't as effective, his team was eliminated and he was crucified for it. Manning up because it's the postseason and his team needs him, that's not leadership? That's not setting an example for his teammates? "Leadership" is not why Dallas was eliminated the last two times out.

A couple of different bounces or one less atrocious whistle by some other ref and the Spurs are in the Finals, not Dallas. Excuses don't work. Either you deliver or you don't.

pussyface

02-12-2008, 03:12 PM

check yourself mono.
this team is a threat to beat anyone when healthy.

missing 3 of the top 7 players (starting pg/c) isnt a reason to play shitty in the dog days of a long season? I don't agree.

im all for tweaking, but using the phrase "blow it up" is a knee-jerk of comical proportions.

Findog

02-12-2008, 03:15 PM

What have they done? I mean, really? They reached the Finals once. That's all they've done. They've been in the WCF before with Nash and Nellie.

That's more than most teams. Keep in mind, I'm not arguing Dirk is as good as Duncan, or the Mavs are as accomplished as the Spurs, but the idea is that the Mavs need to wreck their cap situation and gut their roster because of some amorphous leadership deficit that Dirk supposedly has.

Leaders lead by example. They ask for and get the ball and make things happen.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1278/567468012_dbb3572384_m.jpg

They provide the best when the best is needed.

http://www.nba.com/games/20060618/DALMIA/boxscore.html

PLAY-BY-PLAY
(0:00) End Period
(0:00) [DAL] Team Rebound
(0:00) [DAL] Harris Jump Shot: Missed
(0:01) [MIA 101-100] Wade Free Throw 2 of 2 (43 PTS)
(0:01) [DAL] Team Timeout: Regular
(0:01) [MIA 100-100] Wade Free Throw 1 of 2 (42 PTS)
(0:01) [DAL] Nowitzki Foul: Shooting (4 PF) Call by Bennett Salvatore
(0:09) [MIA] Team Timeout: Regular
(0:09) [DAL 100-99] Nowitzki Fade Away: Made (20 PTS)
(0:29) [DAL] Team Timeout: Regular
(0:29) [MIA 99-98] Payton Driving Layup: Made (8 PTS)
(0:36) [MIA] Team Timeout: Regular
(0:52) [MIA] Posey Rebound (Off:2 Def:4)
(0:54) [DAL] Howard Free Throw 2 of 2 missed
(0:54) [DAL] Team Rebound

http://www.nba.com/games/20060620/MIADAL/boxscore.html

Dirk Nowitzki: 29 points, 15 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 blocked shot on 10-22 shooting. But it was his fault they lost. :rolleyes

A couple of different bounces or one less atrocious whistle by some other ref and the Spurs are in the Finals, not Dallas. Excuses don't work. Either you deliver or you don't.

Terry keeps his hands off Finley's junk and there never even is a Game Seven. Mavs were decisively better head to head against the Spurs that year.

monosylab1k

02-12-2008, 03:19 PM

missing 3 of the top 7 players (starting pg/c) isnt a reason to play shitty in the dog days of a long season? I don't agree.
In a year where the 1-seed and the 8-seed are separated by five games, I do think it's inexcusable to lay that egg in Philly.

If this bad week turns into a bad two or three weeks, the Mavs could easily find themselves fighting it out with GS, Portland, Houston, etc, for the 7/8 seed.

The Mavs are obviously a very good team, but they were a very good team 5 years ago. I'm not satisfied with very good anymore.

Findog

02-12-2008, 03:21 PM

34-17 projects out to 55-27, 56-26. I can't imagine that isn't good enough to make the playoffs. Plus, we're like what, 22-6 against the West? Good thing we won't face a shitty East team in the Finals should we make it that far, since crap eastern teams on the road seems to be our kryptonite this year.

monosylab1k

02-12-2008, 03:27 PM

34-17 projects out to 55-27, 56-26. I can't imagine that isn't good enough to make the playoffs.
I'm not saying they're in danger of missing the playoffs. I'm just saying that the West is so competitive this year that mid-season games against NJ & PHI are more significant this year than in years past. And what happens if Harris aggravates his injury and is out for another month? And this team starts tanking again? If a couple lower seeds make a big run right as we slip, we could wind up a 6 seed or worse.

Playoff positioning isn't everything, but I'd much rather play the Lakers or Suns at home in a Game 7.

Findog

02-12-2008, 03:29 PM

If the West stays this tight, there won't be much qualitative difference between a 3 and 6 seed. HCA is nice, but title teams don't need it. If that's the expectation for this club, then they can win just fine without it.

ElNono

02-12-2008, 03:36 PM

That's more than most teams. Keep in mind, I'm not arguing Dirk is as good as Duncan, or the Mavs are as accomplished as the Spurs, but the idea is that the Mavs need to wreck their cap situation and gut their roster because of some amorphous leadership deficit that Dirk supposedly has.

Who said that? I said you guys need to sign up a guy like Cassell who has the balls that Dirk lacks. I don't think you need to blow up your roster for that?

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1278/567468012_dbb3572384_m.jpg

http://www.dubfrequency.com/blog/archives/ManuGold.jpg http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PHO/aagr058_b~Manu-Ginobili-2005-NBA-Championship-With-Trophy-Composite-12-Posters.jpg http://z.about.com/d/sanantonio/1/0/x/I/-/-/manu-ginobili-championship-trophy.jpg

http://www.nba.com/games/20060618/DALMIA/boxscore.html

PLAY-BY-PLAY
(0:00) End Period
(0:00) [DAL] Team Rebound
(0:00) [DAL] Harris Jump Shot: Missed
(0:01) [MIA 101-100] Wade Free Throw 2 of 2 (43 PTS)
(0:01) [DAL] Team Timeout: Regular
(0:01) [MIA 100-100] Wade Free Throw 1 of 2 (42 PTS)
(0:01) [DAL] Nowitzki Foul: Shooting (4 PF) Call by Bennett Salvatore
(0:09) [MIA] Team Timeout: Regular
(0:09) [DAL 100-99] Nowitzki Fade Away: Made (20 PTS)
(0:29) [DAL] Team Timeout: Regular
(0:29) [MIA 99-98] Payton Driving Layup: Made (8 PTS)
(0:36) [MIA] Team Timeout: Regular
(0:52) [MIA] Posey Rebound (Off:2 Def:4)
(0:54) [DAL] Howard Free Throw 2 of 2 missed
(0:54) [DAL] Team Rebound

Now look at his line for the game. 20 pts/8 boards in 49 mins. Pretty average for Dirk. This is the NBA Finals. This is where you step up your game (if you know what leadership is)

Terry keeps his hands off Finley's junk and there never even is a Game Seven. Mavs were decisively better head to head against the Spurs that year.

That's why I don't get into if(s) and but(s). They're excuses.
The Spurs know that too. Next year they came out, were healthy and went all way. No excuses.

ratm1221

02-12-2008, 03:39 PM

In a year where the 1-seed and the 8-seed are separated by five games, I do think it's inexcusable to lay that egg in Philly.

If this bad week turns into a bad two or three weeks, the Mavs could easily find themselves fighting it out with GS, Portland, Houston, etc, for the 7/8 seed.

The Mavs are obviously a very good team, but they were a very good team 5 years ago. I'm not satisfied with very good anymore.

The seeds will space out by the end of the season.

Findog

02-12-2008, 03:40 PM

Who said that? I said you guys need to sign up a guy like Cassell who has the balls that Dirk lacks. I don't think you need to blow up your roster for that?

I'm fine with Cassell too.

Now look at his line for the game. 20 pts/8 boards in 49 mins. Pretty average for Dirk. This is the NBA Finals. This is where you step up your game (if you know what leadership is)

29 and 15 when your team is facing elimination isn't stepping your game up? Mavs played five on eight in Game Five, I don't have any problem with what they did in that game.

ratm1221

02-12-2008, 03:44 PM

I always like Findog's posts. They are usually dead-on.

stretch

02-12-2008, 03:46 PM

http://www.dubfrequency.com/blog/archives/ManuGold.jpg http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PHO/aagr058_b~Manu-Ginobili-2005-NBA-Championship-With-Trophy-Composite-12-Posters.jpg http://z.about.com/d/sanantonio/1/0/x/I/-/-/manu-ginobili-championship-trophy.jpg

I love how some of these oversensitive Spurs fans think that anytime the Dirk picture is posted, its an immediate insult to Manu Ginobili, when that isn't even the case at all.

:dizzy

stretch

02-12-2008, 03:50 PM

Now look at his line for the game. 20 pts/8 boards in 49 mins. Pretty average for Dirk. This is the NBA Finals. This is where you step up your game (if you know what leadership is)

To be fair, he really didn't need to score a lot all game, as Terry was on fire, so the team was more focused on feeding Terry. But when the game was on the line (and it was) Dirk made plenty of big plays in that game. He had several key rebounds, shots, and a big assist to Damp.

Findog

02-12-2008, 03:53 PM

I love how some of these oversensitive Spurs fans think that anytime the Dirk picture is posted, its an immediate insult to Manu Ginobili, when that isn't even the case at all.

:dizzy

Ginobili is awesome, but how can you compare the two? Dirk is a Batman, Manu is a Robin. A team with Dirk as its best player will win around 60 games every year and is a threat to go deep in the playoffs. A team with Manu as its best player will be a .500 team. He's better off posting pics of Duncan.

I don't care about the Olympics or FIBA.

ElNono

02-12-2008, 03:54 PM

29 and 15 when your team is facing elimination isn't stepping your game up? Mavs played five on eight in Game Five, I don't have any problem with what they did in that game.

Here's another elimination game:

http://www.nba.com/games/20070503/DALGSW/boxscore.html

8 pts - 10 boards? Is that who you call your leader? The NBA MVP?

Findog

02-12-2008, 03:57 PM

Here's another elimination game:

http://www.nba.com/games/20070503/DALGSW/boxscore.html

8 pts - 10 boards? Is that who you call your leader? The NBA MVP?

At least he was out there. I doubt you have any problem with Tony Parker resting those bone spurs. Like I said, the man had bone spurs, it was the playoffs, so rest wasn't an option. And he gets raked over the coals for it. That game counts, but Game Seven against San Antonio, Games Five and Six against Phoenix don't. I've never argued Dirk is the game's best closer ala Kobe or MJ, but the "Dirk is a leaderless, soft pussy choker" is way overblown. Why can't people judge him by his entire body of work instead of cherrypicking his failures?

monosylab1k

02-12-2008, 03:58 PM

Dirk is a Batman, Manu is a Robin.
Are we really sure about Dirk? Is he really a Batman, or is he a Robin who temporarily acheived Batman status in 06?

Findog

02-12-2008, 04:00 PM

Are we really sure about Dirk? Is he really a Batman, or is he a Robin who temporarily acheived Batman status in 06?

What active "Batman" players have a better playoff resume than Dirk? Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Wade, Billups (or is it Sheed? Can't decide who is the "Man" on the Pistons) Kidd maybe. Yeah, I think he's a Batman.

stretch

02-12-2008, 04:04 PM

Here's another elimination game:

http://www.nba.com/games/20070503/DALGSW/boxscore.html

8 pts - 10 boards? Is that who you call your leader? The NBA MVP?
Yea, we will just use the BS excuse that all Spurs fans use for losing the series to Dallas... a nearly non-existant foot injury.

stretch

02-12-2008, 04:05 PM

I've never argued Dirk is the game's best closer ala Kobe or MJ

Kobe = Overrated "closer"

Give me Tim Duncan, Steve Nash, or Lebron James for closing games. They choose high percentage shots, as opposed to Kobe, resorting to nothing but off-balance threes.

Findog

02-12-2008, 04:08 PM

Yea, we will just use the BS excuse that all Spurs fans use for losing the series to Dallas... a nearly non-existant foot injury.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=270328006

Spurs are shutting Parker down right now because of bone spurs, but Dirk played on his. And that makes him not a leader? WTF?

Shank

02-12-2008, 04:09 PM

"With the game tied at 103, Terry penetrated and was fouled and made the second free throw."

Weird. Someone keep that boxscore handy. That may have been the last time that happened.

Findog

02-12-2008, 04:11 PM

"With the game tied at 103, Terry penetrated and was fouled and made the second free throw."

Weird. Someone keep that boxscore handy. That may have been the last time that happened.

haha. Seriously, he has sucked this year.

monosylab1k

02-12-2008, 04:13 PM

On ESPN they're saying that any trade involving Mike Miller means taking on Brian Cardinal as well.

monosylab1k

02-12-2008, 04:15 PM

This trade works

Dallas sends Stack/Diop/George/Jones/Juwan to Memphis for Miller/Cardinal.

Other than Stackhouse, Memphis gets a promising true center and a bunch of short/expiring contracts. We can throw in some 1st rounders too.

Think they'd go for it? Considering the horse shit they traded Gasol for.

It doesn't help out our backup-PG need, but if we're gonna live or die as a jump shot team, we might as well get another great shooter in the mix, and get rid of some worthless chuckers along the way.

stretch

02-12-2008, 04:15 PM

Are we really sure about Dirk? Is he really a Batman, or is he a Robin who temporarily acheived Batman status in 06?
Dirk played very well in previous playoffs as well. In the years where we were constantly battling Sacramento, he played his butt off in the playoffs. Even in his first playoff go-around, he had some amazing performances against Utah and the Spurs, including a 42 point, 18 rebound, 6 steal effort against the Spurs.

It was just a bad playoff series (Golden State), a bad overtime showing in a game that should never have went to OT to begin with (Phoenix) and losing in the finals, and suddenly everyone classifies Dirk as a total choker. However, he has had FAR more good series' than bad series'. And even in series where his shot was not falling, he found other ways to contribute and get involved, such as the Phoenix and Houston series'

I'm not saying Dirk is total dynamite in the playoffs, but he's not the choker everyone makes him out to be either, and he gets a lot of unfair criticism.

Findog

02-12-2008, 04:15 PM

On ESPN they're saying that any trade involving Mike Miller means taking on Brian Cardinal as well.

I'm willing to do that. Miller make $8 million a year and Cardinal makes $5 million. No surprise they want out from under the Cardinal contract, it's worth it to get Miller. He's the scorer we need to complement Dirk and Josh. I'd prefer to send JET back their way but I don't know why they'd want his contract.

Findog

02-12-2008, 04:22 PM

Findog

02-12-2008, 04:22 PM

Whether it's Juwan Howard sitting on the bench or Brian Cardinal, who cares? Cardinal's bad contract shouldn't deter us from getting Mike Miller.

Shank

02-12-2008, 04:25 PM

monosylab1k

02-12-2008, 04:29 PM

Mbenga also got that epic block on Kobe.

stretch

02-12-2008, 04:31 PM

Keep in mind that 19 and 10 when you're facing double and triple teams is hardly terrible. It's no surprise his scoring would drop when the Warriors would employ the strategies that they did. What killed the Mavs was the 38% FG percentage.
I agree completely. If Jason Terry was out there hitting his shots that he normally makes, Dirk would not have had to face NEAR the amount of double and triple teams.

I have always said it, and will never back off of it, that Jason Terry is the reason we lost that series. Not Dirk. There are only a few players EVER who could consistently beat double and triple teams throughout an entire playoff series, such as Jordan, Shaq in his prime... and thats about it (not going to talk about Bill Russell or Wilt because they played in a league where the league was loaded with 6'3, 6'4 unathletic white guys. Kobe had Shaq drawing double/triple teams, Magic and Kareem had each other, Bird had McHale/Parish, and it goes on...)

It is totally unfair the amount of criticism that Dirk gets for not being able to handle non-stop double teams. Let's see how good Dirk would be playing alongside another superstar, such as Kobe, or Shaq, or Dwight Howard. It would be absolutely amazing what he would be able to do then.

big3bigD

02-12-2008, 04:32 PM

Jesus...Juwan Howard. What a mistake. As bad as Mbenga was, I'd have prefer to have him in there for his sheer size and willingness to foul out in 3 minutes. Instead, we get to watch Juwan Howard trot out there and put up the "3 trillion" on the stat sheet.

you would rather see MBenga have to come in during the playoffs than Howard?
personally, I would hope that neither one ever sees court time, but I would much prefer Howard's IQ out there on the court to MBenga's athleticism.

stretch

02-12-2008, 04:34 PM

you would rather see MBenga have to come in during the playoffs than Howard?
personally, I would hope that neither one ever sees court time, but I would much prefer Howard's IQ out there on the court to MBenga's athleticism.
Howard will never be able to use his IQ because he is too busy trying to run up court just to catch up with everyone, only to be out of position on both ends of the court.

I really thought Howard would contribute more on the floor. I'm very disappointed in that aspect with him. But he seems like a good guy to have in the lockerroom, which is why I don't mind him being on the team.

Second of all, if you are planning on playing Mbenga much at all in the playoffs, then you have a serious issue at the C position.

mavsfan1000

02-12-2008, 04:34 PM

Harris, Dampier, George, & picks for Kidd works. They get a promising PG, expiring contract, and a true center. We get a player with some balls.
That's a horrible trade. 3 starters for one used to be great player who can't shoot.

monosylab1k

02-12-2008, 04:40 PM

As long as George approves the trade, we could even do Stack/Diop/George/Howard/draft picks for Miller/Cardinal. It works under the cap, we can keep Jones as insurance, and they get nothing but expiring contracts with the exception of Stack.

That would leave us with a lineup of -

Dampier
Nowitzki
Howard
Miller
Harris

Terry
Bass
Jones
Hassell
Cardinal
etc.

Considering we only go 7 deep come playoff time, that works okay for me. We'd need to find a backup C as insurance tho.

And IIRC, Miller did run point for a while in Orlando, so we could even move him to point and let Terry play 2-guard when Harris is on the bench.

monosylab1k

02-12-2008, 04:41 PM

That's a horrible trade. 3 starters for one used to be great player who can't shoot.
I didn't realize we were relying on Devean George as a starter come playoff time. Dampier is barely a starter, and Harris has had half a good season. You're an idiot if you think Harris is untouchable.

big3bigD

02-12-2008, 04:42 PM

Howard will never be able to use his IQ because he is too busy trying to run up court just to catch up with everyone, only to be out of position on both ends of the court.

I really thought Howard would contribute more on the floor. I'm very disappointed in that aspect with him. But he seems like a good guy to have in the lockerroom, which is why I don't mind him being on the team.

Second of all, if you are planning on playing Mbenga much at all in the playoffs, then you have a serious issue at the C position.

exactly. i would rater not see either one, but of the two, i think that Howard is more valuable in a playoff game. putting MBenga on the floor is an automatic 2-4 trips to the line for the other team. obviously, these players would only see court time if there is an injury of foul trouble, but injury and foul trouble happen to the Mavs with great frequency.

Shank

02-12-2008, 04:44 PM

Want a bright spot?

Records since January 1:
Dallas 14-6
Boston 13-6
San Antonio 12-9
Detroit 13-6
Phoenix 14-6
Lakers 15-6
Denver 13-7

Utah 16-3
Houston 16-4

big3bigD

02-12-2008, 04:47 PM

I didn't realize we were relying on Devean George as a starter come playoff time. Dampier is barely a starter, and Harris has had half a good season. You're an idiot if you think Harris is untouchable.

Harris isn't untouchable, but pretty damn close. it would be difficult to find a more talented available young point guard once Cassell or Kidd is done in a couple of years.

Getting rid of Damp would be a mistake. he may not be worth his contract, but he is still a valuable piece. Trade Damp and the 5 becomes an issue again.

stretch

02-12-2008, 04:49 PM

Harris isn't untouchable, but pretty damn close. it would be difficult to find a more talented available young point guard once Cassell or Kidd is done in a couple of years.

Getting rid of Damp would be a mistake. he may not be worth his contract, but he is still a valuable piece. Trade Damp and the 5 becomes an issue again.
I agree that it would be better to try to keep those two guys. I'd much rather part with Terry or Stackhouse.

ratm1221

02-12-2008, 04:50 PM

Want a bright spot?

Records since January 1:
Dallas 14-6
Boston 13-6
San Antonio 12-9
Detroit 13-6
Phoenix 14-6
Lakers 15-6
Denver 13-7

Utah 16-3
Houston 16-4

Sweet.

monosylab1k

02-12-2008, 04:51 PM

mavsfan1000

02-12-2008, 04:53 PM

I didn't realize we were relying on Devean George as a starter come playoff time. Dampier is barely a starter, and Harris has had half a good season. You're an idiot if you think Harris is untouchable.
So quick to dismiss Harris yet once he gets injured, this team falls to shit. That is proof enough on how valuable Harris on this team is. Terry can't run the point like Harris and Terry can't play defense. It looks like you don't understand how valuable role players are to a team. Without them, our defense would be shit just like it used to be. Devean George and Dampier are probably our best defenders.

monosylab1k

02-12-2008, 04:53 PM

Want a bright spot?

Records since January 1:
Dallas 14-6
Boston 13-6
San Antonio 12-9
Detroit 13-6
Phoenix 14-6
Lakers 15-6
Denver 13-7

Utah 16-3
Houston 16-4
That's actually a pleasant surprise to see, but at the same time you could have posted updates like these all last season and Dallas would have been on top. It didn't matter come playoff time.

I just don't think this team is capable of playoff success anymore as it's currently constructed.

big3bigD

02-12-2008, 04:57 PM

I agree that it would be better to try to keep those two guys. I'd much rather part with Terry or Stackhouse.

right. Terry, Stack, George, Jones, Hassell, Howard or KVH's contract should be shopped around.
Might have to throw in Bass on something, but i would prefer to see the Mavs keep him as well.
I hope the Mavs are looking at Miller, Cassell, or re-visiting the Magette deal, other than those, I would not want to see a move made.
How do you fell about Artest, Stretch? any place for him on the Mavericks?

stretch

02-12-2008, 04:57 PM

Hey I'd love to part with just Terry or Stack too. But you gotta give up something to get something in return.

The best I could see without losing Harris is my proposed Mike Miller trade.

If we want anything better than Mike Miller, sorry but Harris probably has to go. Again, we're seriously going to put Harris in the league of "untouchable" or even pretty close to that after half a good season????????????
I never said he's untouchable or anything like that, but he is a rare talent, and if he develops, he can easily be a top PG in the league, and bring an ability to drive and score that not many players in the NBA has.

And we really don't need to make that huge of a move. Miller or Maggette should both be achievable without moving Harris.

stretch

02-12-2008, 04:58 PM

right. Terry, Stack, George, Jones, Hassell, Howard or KVH's contract should be shopped around.
Might have to throw in Bass on something, but i would prefer to see the Mavs keep him as well.
I hope the Mavs are looking at Miller, Cassell, or re-visiting the Magette deal, other than those, I would not want to see a move made.
How do you fell about Artest, Stretch? any place for him on the Mavericks?
He would be nice to have, but I don't think he gives the Mavs what they need.

monosylab1k

02-12-2008, 04:59 PM

So quick to dismiss Harris yet once he gets injured, this team falls to shit. That is proof enough on how valuable Harris on this team is. Terry can't run the point like Harris and Terry can't play defense. It looks like you don't understand how valuable role players are to a team. Without them, our defense would be shit just like it used to be. Devean George and Dampier are probably our best defenders.
I'm glad all it takes is half of one good season to convince someone as weak-minded as you.

Where was that great Devin Harris defense on Baron Davis last year? Where was that great Devean George defense on Stephen Jackson or Jason Richardson last year? Where was Dampier at all? Oh yeah he was "hurt". Great.

Looks like you don't understand the concept of playoff basketball - you ride your best players to the title, and your role players chip in when they need to. You don't rely on your role players to step up just as much as your go-to guys, otherwise you end up with Dallas-GS.

We need someone that can step in there with Dirk & Howard. Not someone who sits in with the ranks of George & Dampier. I think Devin Harris is somewhere in between those two areas, and that means he can be moved if the right trade comes along.

mavsfan1000

02-12-2008, 05:09 PM

I'm glad all it takes is half of one good season to convince someone as weak-minded as you.

Where was that great Devin Harris defense on Baron Davis last year? Where was that great Devean George defense on Stephen Jackson or Jason Richardson last year? Where was Dampier at all? Oh yeah he was "hurt". Great.

Looks like you don't understand the concept of playoff basketball - you ride your best players to the title, and your role players chip in when they need to. You don't rely on your role players to step up just as much as your go-to guys, otherwise you end up with Dallas-GS.

We need someone that can step in there with Dirk & Howard. Not someone who sits in with the ranks of George & Dampier. I think Devin Harris is somewhere in between those two areas, and that means he can be moved if the right trade comes along.
Unfortunately our best players are weak on defense except for Harris. Baron Davis is a one of those type of point guards that give Harris problems due to his size. I'm not interested in changing our whole lineup just because of Baron Davis. Harris is best against quicker players like Nash, Parker, Iverson, and etc. Therefore Devean George and Dampier are crucial for this team as they cover up defensive weaknesses from Josh Howard, Terry, and Dirk Nowitzki. Yes I think Howard is a poor defender.

stretch

02-12-2008, 05:14 PM

Yes I think Howard is a poor defender.
What makes you draw that conclusion?

monosylab1k

02-12-2008, 05:17 PM

What makes you draw that conclusion?
Howard isn't a poor defender, but his defensive ability was severely overrated early on. He's above average but that's about it. However, 4 years ago "above average" meant he was the best defender on the team.

Mark Cuban really was the one who started the "Josh Howard is one of the top defensive players in the league" idea. It's just not true.

mavsfan1000

02-12-2008, 05:21 PM

What makes you draw that conclusion?
He can't guard superstars. T-Mac, Kobe, Wade, and etc. exploded against us. Even Stojakovic. He just gets overrated on defense by many but really George and Griffin have covered up his liabilities pretty well the last 2 years. I guess when he is focused he can play good defense but he seems to find scoring a higher priority these days.

Warlord23

02-12-2008, 05:23 PM

This is a classic catch-22. The current Mavs team was constructed with the primary objective of countering the Spurs. Devin Harris is the perfect Parker defender.

If you trade Harris, you lose a key piece of the puzzle in countering the Spurs. Harris, however, will get used by physically stronger guards (Baron, Deron, Billups) or by PGs that can play methodical half-court pick-n-roll while having the range to knock down the long ball (Nash, CP3, Deron, Billups). If you get Kidd, he won't get bullied around in the half-court. But then Parker will have a field day in running a one-man fast-break if you put old man Kidd on him.

So it depends on which matchup is more crucial to win a playoff series. Do you think it is more critical to keep Parker in check while playing the Spurs? Or do you think stopping Davis or Deron is more important while playing the GSW/Jazz?

stretch

02-12-2008, 05:34 PM

Howard isn't a poor defender, but his defensive ability was severely overrated early on. He's above average but that's about it. However, 4 years ago "above average" meant he was the best defender on the team.

Mark Cuban really was the one who started the "Josh Howard is one of the top defensive players in the league" idea. It's just not true.
I dunno. He has been able to give guys like Kobe troubles plenty of times. I think that his defensive ability is very very good, but his tendency to pick up stupid fouls is what kills him and does not allow him to play all out on D many times and ends up letting guys like Wade and Kobe, who get calls left and right over minimal contact, get more easy buckets.

monosylab1k

02-12-2008, 05:38 PM

1Parker1

02-12-2008, 05:41 PM

I dunno. He has been able to give guys like Kobe troubles plenty of times. I think that his defensive ability is very very good, but his tendency to pick up stupid fouls is what kills him and does not allow him to play all out on D many times and ends up letting guys like Wade and Kobe, who get calls left and right over minimal contact, get more easy buckets.

Dude, playoffs haven't started yet and you're already bitching about potential calls??? Get over it.

I've see Dirk get plenty of those same ticky-tack fouls. Superstars like Wade and Kobe will get foul calls because they are aggresive and know how to take it to the basket...something which if Dirk learned to do more of he'd get more calls.

ratm1221

02-12-2008, 05:45 PM

I can agree with that, but also, in order to be a great defender you have to play smart, something Howard knows nothing of.

Is there anyone you like on the Mavericks besides Brandon Bass? :lol

stretch

02-12-2008, 05:46 PM

Dude, playoffs haven't started yet and you're already bitching about potential calls??? Get over it.

I've see Dirk get plenty of those same ticky-tack fouls. Superstars like Wade and Kobe will get foul calls because they are aggresive and know how to take it to the basket...something which if Dirk learned to do more of he'd get more calls.
What the fuck are you talking about? I never once mentioned the playoffs when talking about Josh Howard's defensive ability. I just said that he has a tendency to pick up dumb fouls early, and thus when playing against superstar players who get calls more easily, he has to play even lighter defense to stay out of foul trouble.

Pull your head out of your ass, spurs fan.

Findog

02-12-2008, 05:47 PM

stretch

02-12-2008, 05:47 PM

I can agree with that, but also, in order to be a great defender you have to play smart, something Howard knows nothing of.
I agree. I'm just talking about pure defensive ability, he is definitley one of the better defenders in the league. If he started playing smarter, he could be among the top 10 perimeter defenders in the league with ease, maybe even top 5.

monosylab1k

02-12-2008, 05:50 PM

Is there anyone you like on the Mavericks besides Brandon Bass? :lol
Is there anyone on the Mavs who you aren't actively trying to suck off 24/7? Everyone on the Mavs is a perfect player, right?

Findog

02-12-2008, 05:57 PM

I always like Findog's posts. They are usually dead-on.

Thanks.

ElNono

02-12-2008, 05:58 PM

Ginobili is awesome, but how can you compare the two? Dirk is a Batman, Manu is a Robin. A team with Dirk as its best player will win around 60 games every year and is a threat to go deep in the playoffs. A team with Manu as its best player will be a .500 team. He's better off posting pics of Duncan.

I don't care about the Olympics or FIBA.

Well, that's convenient. That you don't care doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Plus Dirk is such a Robin that the whole reason Dallas needs to upgrade is to bring some sort of Batman with balls so he can provide what Dirk lacks.
I understand you're a Dirk homer, and you won't agree with me. There's nothing wrong with that.

One other thing I don't get is why people here are clamoring for Miller? He's just another shooter. I agree with you in that you would be better served with a big that has some kind of post game.

monosylab1k

02-12-2008, 06:02 PM

One other thing I don't get is why people here are clamoring for Miller? He's just another shooter.
Not that I endorse it, but it appears that this team insists on being jump shooters. They refuse to attack the basket with consistency. We've been waiting for a change for 3 years now and it hasn't happened. It will never happen. Dirk will tell us every year about how he'll work on a post game, and the next year he will still have no post game. It is what it is.

My philosophy is that if they are what they are, and they refuse to make a move for Kidd, then we might as well load up on as many great shooters as possible. Get rid of low percentage chuckers (Stackhouse), and if we're gonna try to shoot our way to a title, then do it with the best personnel possible. Mike Miller is the best shooter available, so we might as well get him, since that doesn't mean gutting out roster.

Findog

02-12-2008, 06:04 PM

Well, that's convenient. That you don't care doesn't mean it didn't happen.

FIBA rules are a lot different from NBA rules. Tim Duncan isn't as effective in international play. I guarantee you if they played the Olympics under NBA rules, the US would slaughter all comers. Ginobili is a fine player, but Dirk is a franchise player while Manu is not.

Plus Dirk is such a Robin that the whole reason Dallas needs to upgrade is to bring some sort of Batman with balls so he can provide what Dirk lacks.

Dallas lacks size and scoring at the two and another interior defender. I'm no homer, there are plenty of flaws and holes in Dirk's game. If he was the pussy you say he is, the Mavs would not have been one of the elite teams in the league that past several years.

One other thing I don't get is why people here are clamoring for Miller?

Because when teams collapse on Dirk in the playoffs and he swings the ball outside to a open shooter like Miller, a few makes and the opposition will have to rethink doubling Dirk. Terry is a two in a one's body. Look at what Korver has done for the Jazz: he gives Boozer and Williams more freedom to operate when he's in the game because you have to stay with him and not let him have an open look. They've taken off since that trade. Miller would have a similar effect on Dallas.

Findog

02-12-2008, 06:11 PM

As long as George approves the trade,

And why would he do that? "Hey Devean, help us out and go to Memphis or New Jersey."

monosylab1k

02-12-2008, 06:13 PM

And why would he do that? "Hey Devean, help us out and go to Memphis or New Jersey."
If he really wants out of here as much as he says he does then he will. Plus he'll get more playing time at either of those places, meaning a better chance to showcase his "skills" and dupe somebody else into giving him a contract.

Findog

02-12-2008, 06:17 PM

If he really wants out of here as much as he says he does then he will. Plus he'll get more playing time at either of those places, meaning a better chance to showcase his "skills" and dupe somebody else into giving him a contract.

Maybe. Plus he's got three rings so that motivation might not necessarily be there.

ludda

02-12-2008, 06:31 PM

Mavs have noone to make teams pay when they play aggressive and double up Dirk and take away his game. Really simple as that.

Asking Dirk to become a dominant post player is a pipe dream. Its not his game. Just like shooting fadeaway Js is not Shaqs.
That's why I said earlier, Mavs are still too dependent on Dirk and until they get another star or other players that make them a more versatile team besides all being soft jumpershooters, I don't see them going very far.

ElNono

02-12-2008, 06:33 PM

FIBA rules are a lot different from NBA rules. Tim Duncan isn't as effective in international play. I guarantee you if they played the Olympics under NBA rules, the US would slaughter all comers. Ginobili is a fine player, but Dirk is a franchise player while Manu is not.

Correction. Cuban wants Dirk to be a franchise player. So far it hasn't worked.
We will never know how good or not Manu would have been if somebody would have tried to make him a franchise player (or he decided he wanted to be, like Stephen Jackson). That's a plus for us Spurs fans, and I don't see how you can hold it against him. Plus without Manu we flat out do not win, at the very least, the 2005 championship. You can ask any Spurs fan that and you will get the same response.

Dallas lacks size and scoring at the two and another interior defender. I'm no homer, there are plenty of flaws and holes in Dirk's game. If he was the pussy you say he is, the Mavs would not have been one of the elite teams in the league that past several years.

Do they give you a trophy for being an 'elite team'? If you don't win it all, does it matter? The Suns have been an 'elite team' also since Dirk's been made the franchise player in Dallas. Who cares? Like mono said, going from a good team to a very good team is great, but at some point 'very good' doesn't cut it anymore.

Because when teams collapse on Dirk in the playoffs and he swings the ball outside to a open shooter like Miller, a few makes and the opposition will have to rethink doubling Dirk. Terry is a two in a one's body. Look at what Korver has done for the Jazz: he gives Boozer and Williams more freedom to operate when he's in the game because you have to stay with him and not let him have an open look. They've taken off since that trade. Miller would have a similar effect on Dallas.

The Jazz actually have a post game and a very good post player. Just like the Spurs they can play an inside-out game.
I don't see the same inside presence in Dallas. Even if they double Dirk, a 3pt shot is a very low percentage shot (40% tops?) Do you want to keep jump shooting?

lurker

02-12-2008, 06:40 PM

Devean has been getting the playing time he wanted and some nice words from Avery ever since he said he'd be okay with a trade. I think he's happy now.

Findog

02-12-2008, 06:48 PM

Correction. Cuban wants Dirk to be a franchise player. So far it hasn't worked.

Well, I guess you can't be a "franchise" guy if you don't win a title, then? So LeBron James isn't a franchise player? Steve Nash? Chris Paul? Carmelo Anthony? Jason Kidd? Baron Davis? Kevin Garnett? I guess it so far hasn't worked for those guys either being a #1 guy.

You can ask any Spurs fan that and you will get the same response.

And Josh Howard is just as important to us as Manu is to the Spurs. We don't beat San Antonio without Josh.

Do they give you a trophy for being an 'elite team'? If you don't win it all, does it matter?

29 teams "fail" every year. The argument isn't whether or not the Mavs have accomplished as much as the Spurs or Pistons, it's whether or not to "blow it up" and if Dirk lacks some sort of "toughness" gene. Considering he plays hurt, considering what he's accomplished in his career, and what this Mavs team has done, I think he has it in him, and I think they deserve one more chance before a major roster overhaul. Does that mean I think they're going to do it? I don't know, but I like our chances as much as anybody outside of Boston and San Antonio. There will be plenty of time in the summer to go in a different direction.

The Jazz actually have a post game and a very good post player. Just like the Spurs they can play an inside-out game.
I don't see the same inside presence in Dallas. Even if they double Dirk, a 3pt shot is a very low percentage shot (40% tops?) Do you want to keep jump shooting?

That's what they got Bass for. This team is very different when they're missing 3 starters and Stack.

ElNono

02-12-2008, 07:15 PM

Well, I guess you can't be a "franchise" guy if you don't win a title, then? So LeBron James isn't a franchise player? Steve Nash? Chris Paul? Carmelo Anthony? Jason Kidd? Baron Davis? Kevin Garnett? I guess it so far hasn't worked for those guys either being a #1 guy.

No, what I'm trying to point out is that using the term 'franchise player' to rate a talented player against another means absolutely nothing.
KG in Wolvesland was THE franchise player. How did that work out?
TMac has been a franchise player forever, he still has to get past the first round.
VC is a franchise player, also always choking in the playoffs (even when playing with another franchise player).
Philly got tired of waiting for AI, the franchise player, to deliver.
There's countless examples of that. Eventually, the GM realizes the 'franchise player' can't deliver and moves on.

29 teams "fail" every year. The argument isn't whether or not the Mavs have accomplished as much as the Spurs or Pistons, it's whether or not to "blow it up" and if Dirk lacks some sort of "toughness" gene. Considering he plays hurt, considering what he's accomplished in his career, and what this Mavs team has done, I think he has it in him, and I think they deserve one more chance before a major roster overhaul. Does that mean I think they're going to do it? I don't know, but I like our chances as much as anybody outside of Boston and San Antonio. There will be plenty of time in the summer to go in a different direction.

Actually, the only argument is whether or not to blow up the team. And I don't think you do. Dallas is not like the Suns or Spurs whose talented guy is old and needs to win now. Still, I think they need an upgrade, balls wise.

That's what they got Bass for. This team is very different when they're missing 3 starters and Stack.

Bass, the rookie, is your plan for post play in the playoffs? Good luck with that.

Findog

02-12-2008, 07:19 PM

Bass, the rookie, is your plan for post play in the playoffs? Good luck with that.

He's a third-year player, not a rookie. He was brought in because we couldn't punish small-ball teams like Phoenix or Golden State. I like what a healthy Dirk and Bass have done against Golden State this year.

Shank

02-12-2008, 07:20 PM

I'm interested in knowing the definition of "balls" and how a team goes about acquiring said "balls".

Findog

02-12-2008, 07:27 PM

I'm interested in knowing the definition of "balls" and how a team goes about acquiring said "balls".

I thought Dirk had two of them, but what do I know? All this time our starting PF was a eunuch?

ElNono

02-12-2008, 07:42 PM

I'm interested in knowing the definition of "balls" and how a team goes about acquiring said "balls".

From Dictionary.com:

ball /bɔl/ Pronunciation Key
–noun
1. a spherical or approximately spherical body or shape; sphere: He rolled the piece of paper into a ball.
2. a round or roundish body, of various sizes and materials, either hollow or solid, for use in games, as baseball, football, tennis, or golf.
3. a game played with a ball, esp. baseball: The boys are out playing ball.
4. Baseball. a pitched ball, not swung at by the batter, that does not pass over home plate between the batter's shoulders and knees.
5. Military.
a. a solid, usually spherical projectile for a cannon, rifle, pistol, etc., as distinguished from a shell.
b. projectiles, esp. bullets, collectively.
6. any part of a thing, esp. of the human body, that is rounded or protuberant: the ball of the thumb.
7. a round mass of food, as of chopped meat, dough, or candy.
8. Slang: Vulgar. a testis.
9. balls, Slang: Vulgar.

a. boldness; courage; brashness.
b. nonsense (often used as an interjection).
10. bolus (def. 1).

As far as how you go about acquiring them, you get a player with those qualities...

Shank

02-12-2008, 07:45 PM

I'm interested in knowing who has "balls" on the other contenders around the league and what constitutes their boldness. And then, who's to say these same qualities aren't found on any player on the Mavs roster?

ElNono

02-12-2008, 08:06 PM

I'm interested in knowing who has "balls" on the other contenders around the league and what constitutes their boldness.

Off the top of my head: Cassell, Billups, Kobe, Duncan...

I already described previously on this thread what the qualities of a leader are.

And then, who's to say these same qualities aren't found on any player on the Mavs roster?

The proof is in the pudding...

Findog

02-12-2008, 09:17 PM

The proof is in the pudding...

And one in the hand is worth two in the bush

You dance with the ones who brung you

When the going gets tough, the tough get going

You either have what it takes or you don't

You can't win if you don't try

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link

You just have to take it one step at a time

It all comes to making shots and getting stops

monosylab1k

03-10-2010, 02:32 AM

I was just looking at some old threads, admiring my visionary genius.

I may decide to go back to the numerous threads where I threw out a controversial opinion, everybody talked shit to me about how I was an idiot, and it turns out I gave almost a picture perfect crystal ball look into the future. And believe me, these threads are numerous.

Thankfully Donnie and Cuban saw my line of thinking and changed the culture of this team. Took you fucks long enough.

The only thing in this thread I was wrong about was my confidence that Devean George wouldn't poopoo a trade to New Jersey :lol even a genius can be wrong once in a while.

monosylab1k

03-10-2010, 02:59 AM

If we're going to make a move for this season, Kidd is the way to go. Even if we give up 4 guys for him, our basketball IQ quadruples. I'm really starting to believe we're the dumbest team in the NBA.

:tu

Kidd simply isn't a realistic option, not for us or Jersey.

:lol

Jason Kidd provides leadership and intelligence, and this team can rally around him.

:tu

Dude, STFU.

Mavs are 34-17 and the 3rd seed even with all of the injuries this year.

:lol

Jason Kidd is old as dirt and Nets want too much for him. Only way he's going to another team is after his contract expires with the Nets. But keep wishing away.

:lmao

This is the same group that reached the 06 Finals and knocked of the Spurs on the way. The Mavs are contenders only if they listen to their coach. Avery Johnson is the only one who has one a championship in that group and he is the only tough guy on that team.

:lmao

This is the same team that made it to the Finals in 06 and won 67 games in 07

:lol

There's teams that grab it by the balls and go win, and there's teams that make excuses for their failures.

Why don't all of you Mavs Homers tell ME which one the Mavs look like right now?

:tu

Either the Mavs as an organization change this culture of excuse-making or we'll never see a championship here.

:tu

check yourself mono.
this team is a threat to beat anyone when healthy.

:lmao :lmao

In a year where the 1-seed and the 8-seed are separated by five games, I do think it's inexcusable to lay that egg in Philly.

If this bad week turns into a bad two or three weeks, the Mavs could easily find themselves fighting it out with GS, Portland, Houston, etc, for the 7/8 seed.

:tu just a stroke of visionary genius. but some disagree...

34-17 projects out to 55-27, 56-26

:lol

I'm not saying they're in danger of missing the playoffs. I'm just saying that the West is so competitive this year that mid-season games against NJ & PHI are more significant this year than in years past

:tu

If the West stays this tight, there won't be much qualitative difference between a 3 and 6 seed. HCA is nice, but title teams don't need it. If that's the expectation for this club, then they can win just fine without it.

whoops

The seeds will space out by the end of the season.

:lmao

That's a horrible trade. 3 starters for one used to be great player who can't shoot.

:lol

Harris has had half a good season. You're an idiot if you think Harris is untouchable.

:tu

Harris isn't untouchable, but pretty damn close.

:lol

Again, we're seriously going to put Harris in the league of "untouchable" or even pretty close to that after half a good season????????????

:tu

Howard isn't a poor defender, but his defensive ability was severely overrated early on. He's above average but that's about it. However, 4 years ago "above average" meant he was the best defender on the team.

Mark Cuban really was the one who started the "Josh Howard is one of the top defensive players in the league" idea. It's just not true.

:tu

damn, i'm good.