Clemens Congressional Hearing

[to21]

Jus started at 9:00 am:

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?&brand=null&videoId=3243081&n8pe6c=1

[FromWayDowntown]

Sounds like they've concluded that Clemens is the liar.

[greenroom]

You know its bad when the wives are brought in this matter.

Clemens is done..

[clambake]

who would of thought that clemens legacy would equal pathetic?

[maxpower]

I am not a great baseball fan ...but this is a bit cringe-inducing. Clemens and McNamee are seated at the same table separated by one person. Both took turns giving opening statements which means one is lying. Now Clemens is being questioned by the panel.
He seems to be unable to call Pettite a liar and is giving some roundabout answer. It is not looking good for Clemens at this point.

[to21]

The congressmen keeps asking the same damn question.....twenty different ways.

Clemens has already said Petite was mistaken (or he was lying).

[Extra Stout]

Clemens is absolutely going to dominate the baseball league in the federal pen.

[clambake]

he should have hired bonds trainer.

[Kermit]

Clemens is absolutely going to dominate the baseball league in the federal pen.

Not if Barry is in there with him...

[clambake]

dan burton must have made a backroom deal with clemens.

[Flight3107]

Dan Burton sucking Rogers dick.


Go dig a hole and die in it you old fuck.

[Kermit]

He kissed major ass, BUT did what he set out to do...McNamee is in the eyes of a lot of people a habitual liar thanks to Burton.

[clambake]

He kissed major ass, BUT did what he set out to do...McNamee is in the eyes of a lot of people a habitual liar thanks to Burton.
yes, but at least he has the guts to admit he's a liar. it would be foolish to believe clemens.

[FromWayDowntown]

I could actually see a way that Clemens could say that the 2005 conversation referred to in Pettitte's affidavit is entirely consistent with Clemens' story and that it demonstrates that Pettitte had simply mis-remembered the first conversation about using HGH or steroids. Unfortunately for him, I don't think Clemens is nimble enough to really make that argument in this setting. And, frankly, I don't think his lawyers have given enough thought to any of this.

[Kermit]

Is it me, or has this turned into a Yankee lovefest?

[maxpower]

The congressmen keeps asking the same damn question.....twenty different ways.

Clemens has already said Petite was mistaken (or he was lying).


He kept asking the same question because Clemens would not answer it without a roundabout answer.

The question was "Was Pettitte lying?"
Clemens would not say he was lying.
He kept saying he was mistaken.
If Clemens was so positive he did not take steroids he should have said "Pettitte was lying."

[Soul_Patch]

Why the hell do they waste congressman time and tax dollars on this bullshit.


Why is this being investigated by congress? I never understood this.

This is a baseball league...made to enterain fans...what does congress have to do with anything?

[T Park]

Why the hell do they waste congressman time and tax dollars on this bullshit

Because they can.

[to21]

He kept asking the same question because Clemens would not answer it without a roundabout answer.

The question was "Was Pettitte lying?"
Clemens would not say he was lying.
He kept saying he was mistaken.
If Clemens was so positive he did not take steroids he should have said "Pettitte was lying."I understand that.

However, he's not a crack-shot DA trying to get Clemens to walk himself into a lie. Besides, I think he didn't want to come out and call his good friend a liar.

His answer was, "I think Andy was mistaken."

[maxpower]

I understand that.

However, he's not a crack-shot DA trying to get Clemens to walk himself into a lie.

And that is the funny thing because quite a few of the questions to both guys feel like they are being cross-examined.

Prior to the break, one of the congressman was doing the exact same thing to McNamee. Asking if he initially lied, which McNamee admitted to and having the rep end it by saying something to the effect of "well if you lied then...."

[Heath Ledger]

Clemens is getting pWned right now i love it! He's gonna do some time over this.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Nice questions:

Golly gee, Roger, what uniform are you going to choose for the HOF?

Playing out like a badly written B-movie.

[Heath Ledger]

Too many things lean towards Clemens using the stuff,

His improved stats very late in his career,
Mcnamees testimony
Petite Testimony, Petite's wifes testimony.

The fat lady is singing....

[whottt]

Hmmmm...exactly why did Clemens do steroids?


Did he suddenly pick up a couple of MPH on his fastball after 1998?

No he didn't. In fact he lost some velocity.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Whott, you assume that steroids make you play/pitch better. No evidence of this being true or proven. A lot of players have said they've taken them because they THOUGHT they it would improve performance. Doesn't mean it did.

[Pistons_In_7]

Hilarious hes tellng the children that steroids are bad, the funny thing is HGH is not steroids and he didnt say shit about HGH being bad for the kiddies.

[Pistons_In_7]

Again guys HGH is not a fucking steroid.

[whottt]

Whott, you assume that steroids make you play/pitch better.
Um...they do make you hit a ball further...they do make you run faster.


Did Clemens start throwing harder? No he didn't.




No evidence of this being true or proven.

I think there is ample evidence. That they do improve performance, they make you bigger, stronger, faster...none of those things really happened to Clemens.



A lot of players have said they've taken them because they THOUGHT they it would improve performance. Doesn't mean it did.

My point is that even if he did do them...how much did they help him? Probably not at all...

He didn't start throwing the ball harder...he used to have a 100 MPH fastball...he hasn't had that in 15 years. And he had that 100 MPH fastball way back in college. His velocity was more or less declining a little every year.

[Jelly]

I think McNamee is still lying... at least partially. I believe he did inject Clemens with HGH and steroids, but he's still hiding stuff. He ought to just come completely clean.

[whottt]

Again guys HGH is not a fucking steroid.

It pretty much is...it's just not an anabolic steroid. It enables you to build muscle more easily...just like steroids.

[whottt]

Too many things lean towards Clemens using the stuff,

His improved stats very late in his career,



What stats were those?


Did his strike out/ strike out ratio improve?



No it didn't.


About the only thing that improved was the amount of walks he was allowing....that has nothing to do with throwing the ball harder.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

They may have just improved his ability to stay healthy or to recover from injury at a faster rate.

[whottt]

They may have just improved his ability to stay healthy or to recover from injury at a faster rate.



So basically...the stuff that doctors will prescribe them for :tu

[whottt]

They may have just improved his ability to stay healthy or to recover from injury at a faster rate.


It's not like he was a catcher that all of a sudden jacked 35 HR , scored a +100R, +100RBI and stole a buttload of bases and won an MVP or anything...

[whottt]

"The only reason we had this hearing today is because Roger Clemens insisted upon it"


I'm not saying Roger didn't do it...but damned if his approach isn't a good one...


That Roger...he aint going down like all the rest :smokin

He's Roger Fucking Clemens bitches.


He's also going to teach that cocksucker Mcnamee a lesson about squealing...because you don't fucking squeal. Mcnamee is going to pay for breaking the code.

[degenerate_gambler]

that's what's known as a mexican standoff...


neither side will be able to prove the other side is lying.


government oversight committee....nice job of overstepping your authority you bunch of narcissists.

[ATRAIN]

this shit was a total waste of time and our tax dollars.

[dbreiden83080]

Whott, you assume that steroids make you play/pitch better. No evidence of this being true or proven. A lot of players have said they've taken them because they THOUGHT they it would improve performance. Doesn't mean it did.

Steroids have been banned in the Olympics forever, althetes have been stripped of their medals for using them. It is a matter of fact that they improve performance any scientist that has knowledge of their effects will tell you this. Big Mac did not hit 70 HR's because he is just that good.

[clambake]

everybody used to bitch about the east germans.

my, how times have changed.

[to21]

God given talent/ability + steroids = some performance

MAC didn't hit 70 homers JUST because he was juicing.

[dbreiden83080]

God given talent/ability + steroids = some performance

MAC didn't hit 70 homers JUST because he was juicing.

No kidding but he was probbaly juicing his whole career and would not have hit nearly as many HR's had he not been. Remember Ben Johnson who got his Olympic gold taken away from him in the Olympics?? Not a coincendence that he could not beat Carl Lewis until he took steroids.

[Pistons_In_7]

If you read about HGH you will learn that among other things the biggest benefit can be in recovery time after working out or pitching performances. It allows you to be right back in top form in a relatively fast period. Traditionally good pitchers start out pitching great for about the first half of the season and slowly their body breaks down, injuries occur or their performance drops off. HGH allows them fast recovery so they do not have that major drop off and less risk of inury. So from that perspective it does help a pitcher, also clemens head as drasticly increased in size just like Bonds did, which is another sign/symptom of using HGH.

For the doubters if you think his butt buddy Petite would just make up a lie about Clemens i ask you why? Why would he snitch on his best friend or make up a lie? He was covering his own ass thats why, he was told to tell the truth so he doesnt go to prison, which is what appear to be a possibility for the rocket.

[FromWayDowntown]

It's not like he was a catcher that all of a sudden jacked 35 HR , scored a +100R, +100RBI and stole a buttload of bases and won an MVP or ...

. . . Rafael Palmeiro. :p:

[dbreiden83080]

For the doubters if you think his butt buddy Petite would just make up a lie about Clemens i ask you why? Why would he snitch on his best friend or make up a lie? He was covering his own ass thats why, he was told to tell the truth so he doesnt go to prison, which is what appear to be a possibility for the rocket.

Andy for sure did not lie. This was all about Clemens putting on a song and dance trying to save his legacy. He had the most to lose in this whole mess. He is regarded as one of the best pitchers of all time and was going to the hall of fame. He was trying anything he could to keep that intact and not end up like Bonds, who will never be seen as anything more than a disgrace, as Rose who for other reasons is seen as a disgrace. Clemens is not going to clear his name, he is dead buried in terms of his legacy. I don't know if he will go to jail because i am sure his lawyers schooled him like crazy as to what not to say to avoid prosecution but the hall of fame and his legacy are DONE!!

[degenerate_gambler]

. . . Rafael Palmeiro. :p:


Brady Anderson came to mind as well..

[johngateswhiteley]

...its quite obvious clemens used HGH or steroids, you can't make a good argument against it. and its obvious it helped him, saying otherwise is uninformed and reaching. dude cheated and is a liar...period.

[dbreiden83080]

...its quite obvious clemens used HGH or steroids, you can't make a good argument against it. and its obvious it helped him, saying otherwise is uninformed and reaching. dude cheated and is a liar...period.

Yep, i am a Yankees fan and i knew all along that Pettitte was going to bury him once he admitted to HGH use. Pettitte being a Texan as kid worshipped the ground Clemens walked on before he joined the Yankees. Once Clemens came to the Yanks and they hit it off, Andy completely overhauled his training routine to that of Roger's. Clemens in interviews used to arrogantly state how "Other pitchers can't hang with Andy and me in our workouts together". Once telling a story of how Ted Lilly, who used to pitch for the Yanks, tried to work out with them one day and couldn't "Keep his lunch down". Everyone knew how good a friends they were off the field as Clemens retired and then followed Andy to Houston and kept pitching. You would have to be a complete moron to believe that Andy was the only one that took HGH. That he and Roger never talked about it and Roger was totally in the dark about everything. Especially since Mcnamee was his DAMN trainer who, says he injected Clemens before he even came to the Yankees.

It's a shame but BYE BYE Hall of fame Rocket.

[HighLowLobForBig-50]

man he's so screwed

[Vinnie_Johnson]

Just measure the guys head it's huge yes he took roids just freaking admit it and stop looking stupid.

[Pistons_In_7]

He'll be taking something else in the ass very soon at a prison near you....

[whottt]

. . . Rafael Palmeiro. :p:



You know the funny thing is...Palmeiro said he got it from using one of Tejada's syringes...and Tejada has now now been popped for using steroids.


So what if Raffy was telling the truth?

[florige]

You know the funny thing is...Palmeiro said he got it from using one of Tejada's syringes...and Tejada has now now been popped for using steroids.


So what if Raffy was telling the truth?



Man all these bastards knew what they were doing simple as that. And I'm saying this being a lifetime Palmeiro fan.

[fyatuk]

Andy for sure did not lie.

The problem is, as far as I can tell, Andy's entire story is that at some point Clemons told him he used HGH (as it relates to Clemons). He didn't claim to see it happen, etc.

That's not very damning when the person denies saying it, and fits in perfectly with Clemon's claim that Andy "misheard" or whatever. Clemons never claimed his friend lied, so the trustworthiness of Petite doesn't really reflect upon the claim.

It comes down to how reliable Andy's memory is, and any policeman will tell you that memory is extremely unreliable.

Not that I believe Clemons, but I don't see how any of this will lead to any charges. McNamee is a proven liar, and the evidence from Andy is heresay. Clemons loses his reputation, but that's it.

[dbreiden83080]

The problem is, as far as I can tell, Andy's entire story is that at some point Clemons told him he used HGH (as it relates to Clemons). He didn't claim to see it happen, etc.

That's not very damning when the person denies saying it, and fits in perfectly with Clemon's claim that Andy "misheard" or whatever. Clemons never claimed his friend lied, so the trustworthiness of Petite doesn't really reflect upon the claim.

It comes down to how reliable Andy's memory is, and any policeman will tell you that memory is extremely unreliable.

Not that I believe Clemons, but I don't see how any of this will lead to any charges. McNamee is a proven liar, and the evidence from Andy is heresay. Clemons loses his reputation, but that's it.

We didn't hear everything that was in Andy's testimony but given his close relationship to Clemens, the fact they were training partners and the fact that Mcnamee was Clemen's trainer first, it is just a huge stretch to believe that Roger and Andy did not have a conversation about HGH. Andy testified to this and he his wife did the same based on a conversation she had with Andy. You really think Andy would have his wife swear to the same unless he was 100% sure of the nature of this conversation he had with Roger?? Plus Roger was changing his story multiple times yesterday. On 60 min he said that his lawyers told him not to talk to Mitchell when he was invited to do so. Then yesterday he said he had no idea Mitchell wanted to talk to him at all. He blamed his agents for the whole thing. He also tried to make the committe believe that Mcnamee actually injected his wife with HGH, in their home without his knowledge. Which is just ludicrous beyond words that he would think anyone would buy that garbage.

[Fabbs]

What stats were those?


Did his strike out/ strike out ratio improve?



No it didn't.


About the only thing that improved was the amount of walks he was allowing....that has nothing to do with throwing the ball harder.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3239471
Seems like the 4 University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School stat professsors who took a critical look at the Roger Clemens Report were not out to "get" poor Roger.
OTOH Clemons lawyers would definitely lie twist and spin for a buck.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=bryant_howard&id=3244584

[fyatuk]

We didn't hear everything that was in Andy's testimony but given his close relationship to Clemens, the fact they were training partners and the fact that Mcnamee was Clemen's trainer first, it is just a huge stretch to believe that Roger and Andy did not have a conversation about HGH. Andy testified to this and he his wife did the same based on a conversation she had with Andy. You really think Andy would have his wife swear to the same unless he was 100% sure of the nature of this conversation he had with Roger?? Plus Roger was changing his story multiple times yesterday. On 60 min he said that his lawyers told him not to talk to Mitchell when he was invited to do so. Then yesterday he said he had no idea Mitchell wanted to talk to him at all. He blamed his agents for the whole thing. He also tried to make the committe believe that Mcnamee actually injected his wife with HGH, in their home without his knowledge. Which is just ludicrous beyond words that he would think anyone would buy that garbage.

No we didn't, but we have heard that his deposition was all over the place (the rumored reason he was excused from the hearing was because he wouldn't be a good witness because of how he bounced around), and this is what people are choosing to focus on, so it's probably a safe assumption that this remembered conversation is the closest thing to something damning about Clemens. His wife swore that Petite told her about the conversation. If Petite originally heard wrong, it doesn't make a difference. Honestly, if that's the most damning thing about Clemens in Petite's deposition, it's completely useless in terms of trying to pin something on Clemens.

As has been brought up with McNamee, differences in stories told to media and stories told to the hearing are irrelevent, at least in terms of perjury charges, and it's doubtful any actual drug charges will be brought against anyone (and it'd be McNamee if anyone).

That's all I'm saying. No charges are going to appear based on this hearing or the depositions.

[clambake]

if the almighty, legendary pitcher known as roger clemens tells me he uses hgh, then that is something that could never be "misheard".

[Spurminator]

I have a pretty high standard for giving the accused the benefit of the doubt until solid proof is provided, but given Andy Pettitte's testimony combined with the assertion that Clemens' wife took HGH (without him knowing!?!?) I've pretty much made up my mind that Clemens is a liar, with the mindset that if he never admits it, it means it never happened.

[Heath Ledger]

He'll be taking something else in the ass very soon at a prison near you....

[dbreiden83080]

I have a pretty high standard for giving the accused the benefit of the doubt until solid proof is provided, but given Andy Pettitte's testimony combined with the assertion that Clemens' wife took HGH (without him knowing!?!?) I've pretty much made up my mind that Clemens is a liar, with the mindset that if he never admits it, it means it never happened.

Not that this means much to some people but i saw a body language expert on ESPN First Take this morning and she said that Clemens was 100% consistant start to finish with someone who was lying like crazy the entire hearing.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Pettite's testimony, if anyone wants to read it:

Deposition - February 4th

http://oversight.house.gov/documents/20080213144942.pdf

Affidavit - February 8th

http://oversight.house.gov/documents/20080213150024.pdf

[mikejones99]

roger is a rich fucker and rich fux dont usually go to jail

[whottt]

Boy, I sure hope you guys are never sitting on my jury when I'm innocent.

"My ass says guilty, so he must be".

[whottt]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3239471
Seems like the 4 University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School stat professsors who took a critical look at the Roger Clemens Report were not out to "get" poor Roger.
OTOH Clemons lawyers would definitely lie twist and spin for a buck.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=bryant_howard&id=3244584


I see...and how many Cy Youngs do those guys have?




Thanks for playing.

[whottt]

I have a pretty high standard for giving the accused the benefit of the doubt until solid proof is provided, but given Andy Pettitte's testimony combined with the assertion that Clemens' wife took HGH (without him knowing!?!?) I've pretty much made up my mind that Clemens is a liar, with the mindset that if he never admits it, it means it never happened.



I didn't hear you complaining when he was leading your team to the World Series...


And I love the wife logic...so if man's wife kills someone, he killed someone too?


Insightful...


So tell me...what you do think about newfangled dunking pool method? I know it's not as cutting edge as burning at the stake...but still, it's pretty sophisticated.

[Spurminator]

How does his wife get HGH from his trainer without him knowing? In what world would that ever happen?

[Spurminator]

I don't even care if anything happens to Clemens. I'd still put him in the HOF. But the more he lies the more this thing drags on and the more I have to hear about it, and it's annoying.

And didn't you convict Palmiero right after Canseco's book came out? :lol

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

I don't care about steroids in baseball, but this is great theater.

[dbreiden83080]

No we didn't, but we have heard that his deposition was all over the place (the rumored reason he was excused from the hearing was because he wouldn't be a good witness because of how he bounced around), and this is what people are choosing to focus on, so it's probably a safe assumption that this remembered conversation is the closest thing to something damning about Clemens. His wife swore that Petite told her about the conversation. If Petite originally heard wrong, it doesn't make a difference. Honestly, if that's the most damning thing about Clemens in Petite's deposition, it's completely useless in terms of trying to pin something on Clemens.


Pettitte also said that he talked with Mcnamee about Roger and his HGH use and Mcnamee became very angry and told him "that was supposed to be confidential", surely he did not misunderstand that conversation. I know Clemens is not likely to go to jail here, i just believe what Andy is saying as the truth. That Clemens is just in desperate spin mode here, clinging to anything he can grab a hold of.

[mikejones99]

Clemens gets the last laugh, the Yankees paid him close to 20 million $$$$ for about half a season.

[clambake]

so, mrs. clemens is getting hgh injections and roger knows nothing about it, and is outraged to find out about it, and is not stomping the guts out of macnamee....sure.

[mikejones99]

mrs. clemens should get half the punishment

[FromWayDowntown]

I don't even care if anything happens to Clemens. I'd still put him in the HOF. But the more he lies the more this thing drags on and the more I have to hear about it, and it's annoying.

And didn't you convict Palmiero right after Canseco's book came out? :lol

Acutally, if I remember correctly, I think whottt was the last man standing in the Palmeiro defense and gave up only when the failed test was made public.

And Clemens might want to consult with that all-time hits leader in baseball history about a denial strategy. If he didn't do it, then denial is the best thing that Clemens can do. But it seems unlikely, at this point, that he didn't do it.

[fyatuk]

Pettitte also said that he talked with Mcnamee about Roger and his HGH use and Mcnamee became very angry and told him "that was supposed to be confidential", surely he did not misunderstand that conversation. I know Clemens is not likely to go to jail here, i just believe what Andy is saying as the truth. That Clemens is just in desperate spin mode here, clinging to anything he can grab a hold of.

I believe Petite as well. I was just trying to make the point to the people cracking jokes about jail time that that wasn't really a possibility.

You can't convict one heresay like that.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Wouldn't matter, Bush would just pardon him.

[Spurminator]

Acutally, if I remember correctly, I think whottt was the last man standing in the Palmeiro defense and gave up only when the failed test was made public.



I don't know, I remember when the book came out and implicated all of those Rangers, Whottt's reaction was something along the lines of "Crap, that has to be right." I was surprised that someone would be that willing to believe such claims about his favorite player in a book written by Jose Canseco. Of course, it ended up being right.

[whottt]

I mentioned him before his name was ever mentioned by Canseco as one fo the examples of a guy who didn't do steroids and he was probably my favorite player in baseball at that time. I was defending his HOF worthiness based on his numbers....that's what most of the heated arguments you remember were about...his HOF worthiness based on his cumulative totals as opposed to secondary PCT derived stats like OPS.

I did think Canseco's book was pretty incriminating though...I wasn't really defending him from the accusations in Canseco's book...but I wasn't passing judgement either....and I noted that there could be something to what Canseco was saying.


After ummm...he testified before congress under oath I did defend him :lmao


Hey guys...the way I look at it...it's better to think a guilty man is innocent than an innocent one guilty, and it's better to be wrong about a guilty man being innocent than an innocent one being guilty....it is about justice and all that. And if there's no proof...



And you know what...Palmeiro did say it could have happened because of Tejada...and Tejada was one of the names mentioned in the Mitchell Report...


So what if Palmeiro was telling the truth?


I know, I know...to convince ya'll he's innocent he'd need to be more indiginant about the accusations and vociferous in mounting his own defense...like Roger....