Around the Horn: The Spurs and their trade needs

[jag]

On ATH about a min and thirty seconds ago they talked about whether the Spurs should stay as is, or make a trade.

3/4 panelists said the Spurs are 1 game ahead of their pace last year and should rely on their vets to make plays. Plaschke said that he considers the Spurs to be the best team in the NBA in the last 5 min of a game.

Think the Spurs are good: Bill Plaschke
Jay Mariotti
Kevin Blackistone

1/4 panelists think that the Spurs need to make a deal for either Ron Artest or Ben Wallace to be able to match what other teams were doing. His reasoning was only to counter other teams moves

Think the Spurs need a trade: Woody Paige



I think if the Spurs make a trade it needs to be one that suites them not only for the rest of this season but also helps them in later seasons. I dont think they should ever trade based solely upon other teams moves.

Looking at teams like Miami we can see what happens when a team makes a deal that only prepares them for 1 or 2 future seasons. Sure Shaq got them a Title, but that team is now worse off then they were before the trade.

[T Park]

Thats why trading for Kurt Thomas makes so much sense.

[jag]

Thats why trading for Kurt Thomas makes so much sense.

I can agree that it makes sense to get KT...but i dont know who they would ask for, and i know that both Barry and Finley have proved to be good for spreading the floor in the playoffs.

[T Park]

Barry is proving hes good for handing out gatorade right now and will more than likely not play again for the rest of the year or be the same.

Kurt Thomas gives you someone to guard Shaq and Bynum.

As stated in the "Trade for Kurt Thomas" thread.

[jag]

Why would they want a busted Barry then?

[T Park]

Cap space, and give more PT to Swift Petro without having to bench a good veteran roleplayer.

[T Park]

Zeke is in New York.

Thomas is in Seattle.

[remingtonbo2001]

Barry is proving hes good for handing out gatorade right now and will more than likely not play again for the rest of the year or be the same.

Was Barry's injury updated? I assumed he would be back by March.
Was it classified as season ending?

[jag]

Zeke is in New York.

Thomas is in Seattle.

haha my bad...wasnt thinking

i guess the thing with this trade is we seem to think that other teams would love elson...i dont think they see him too much different than we do.

this is assuming that barry and elson would be packaged in a trade.

[BradLohaus]

Trading for Ben Wallace would be about the dumbest move the Spurs could make.

Woody Paige is such an idiot.

[T Park]

Was Barry's injury updated? I assumed he would be back by March.
Was it classified as season ending?


He will but hes mid 30s and has injured the calf muscle pretty good twice.

Common sense tells you that hes not gonna be the same when gets back.

[ChumpDumper]

Have they not noticed that Ben Wallace sucks ass?

Artest? I wouldn't have too much of a problem with it, but I think Petrie would would want quite a bit for him.

[T Park]

i guess the thing with this trade is we seem to think that other teams would love elson...i dont think they see him too much different than we do.


I don't think Memphis likes Kwame Brown. They like the 9 million in cap space he creates. Same with elson, they may not like him (they may, some teams are dumb) they like the 3 mill in cap space he creates or adds onto though.

[T Park]

Artest? I wouldn't have too much of a problem with it, but I think Petrie would would want quite a bit for him

If Petrie wouldn't mind sucking down Bonner's contract, I think Elson, Bonner, Barry would get it done.

THinking about it, I wouldn't like it, but I wouldn't complain too much. IE signing Glenn Robinson.

[ChumpDumper]

I think it would only take Barry and one of the others to make the salaries work, but what else would Petrie want?

I imagine if he could get rid of Kenny Thomas at the same time he would do it. That would almost be worth it.

[T Park]

I think it would only take Barry and one of the others to make the salaries work, but what else would Petrie want?

I imagine if he could get rid of Kenny Thomas at the same time he would do it. That would almost be worth it.

I could think of worse 4th bigs to have than Kenny Thomas.

[pad300]

I could think of worse 4th bigs to have than Kenny Thomas.

No thanks to Artest from my end. Also, with regards to a Kenny Thomas/Artest package, read this http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=761664 to understand how ugly the Thomas contract is...

[T Park]

I'll wait till people on this site confirm the contract before listening to those goofs.

"Stephen Jackson was a late season rental" sigh :rolleyes

[ChumpDumper]

Thomas' contract is ugly, but it fits the cap plan. If there was a way to get Artest to take his option for next year as a condition of the trade, I would definitely consider it.

[T Park]

Agreed, it fits "Project 2010"

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Woody Paige is a fucking idiot.

[T Park]

Goes without saying.

Guess we could create a new acronym. GWS.

[remingtonbo2001]

He will but hes mid 30s and has injured the calf muscle pretty good twice.

Common sense tells you that hes not gonna be the same when gets back.


Common sense tells me Deikembe Mutombo should have retired 8 years ago.

Common sense also tells me the NY Knicks should have never made Isiah Thomas as their GM, but they did anyways.

Common sense tells me the Spurs should have never recieved 2 HOF post players from the draft within a 10 year period. Fortunately for us, God is a Spurs fan. :)

[Mr. Body]

Artest or especially Wallace would be disastrous.

A trade is a good idea. I fully advocate trading Barry at this point; it's not likely he'll play for us this year again. We should not expect him to.

[T Park]

Injuries are different from what your talking about though my friend.

[lrrr]

Anyone who thinks that a little more motivation is all it needs to rejuvenate Ben Wallace is kidding themselves. No amount of motivation can compensate for the loss of ability caused by AGE. Ben can no longer do the things he used to, his body just won't allow it.


And no thanks to looney tunes. Artest has never shown he can contribute as a winner.

[remingtonbo2001]

Injuries are different from what your talking about though my friend.

Didn't Tedy Bruschi suffer a pretty serious injury.

Common sense tells me he shouldn't be playing football anymore.

But guess what, he is.


Point is, I still think Brent is more than capable of contributing this year.

Let him go out a champion.

[T Park]

I've got some ocean front property to sell ya remintonbo, PM me.

[Phenomanul]

He will but hes mid 30s and has injured the calf muscle pretty good twice.

Common sense tells you that hes not gonna be the same when gets back.


Barry is a shooter, and he's getting some valuable rest. When he comes back (after having had ample time to properly heal) he will need only 5-10 games to regain his rhythm.

Being 'older' just means his injuries take a longer time to heal - and we're not talking about an exponential curve here... it doesn't mean that he won't heal at all. Based on the report released after his MRI he should be back by mid to late March. Why would you claim that Barry is done?

I think he was rushed back into playing after his first injury, either by his own initiative or a lack of restraint from the Spurs' medical staff or coaching staff. Other than jammed fingers, and twisted ankles - the commonplace injury in basketball... this is Barry's first extended injury not confined to the above group. You act like his age has made him more injury prone. These are professional athletes we're talking about here; athletes who have the benefit of being provided with excellent and expedited healthcare, treatments, first aid etc...

Besides, why is everyone so eager to trade Barry for players who will likely not learn the Spurs system by the time the playoffs roll around? And for players that likely won't help the Spurs retain their title, no less? You don't deal away his experience simply because his contract is a desirable trade commodity unless you are getting immediate help for this season and flexibility or talent for the future.

Furthermore, the Spurs have typically needed at least five players with acceptable 3pt point accuracy on the squad to flourish offensively (Horry, Manu, Finley, Bowen, ?). Particulary because with that many deep threats the likelyhood that all of them have an off game the same night is much lower. If the Spurs trade Barry's expiring contract, can they count on Damon and Udoka to fill a 40+ 3pt% void?

[MannyIsGod]

]Barry is proving hes good for handing out gatorade right now and will more than likely not play again for the rest of the year or be the same.[/b]

Kurt Thomas gives you someone to guard Shaq and Bynum.

As stated in the "Trade for Kurt Thomas" thread.Wow dude - you're on a roll pulling shit out of your ass lately.

[batboy]

There was some talk on PTI too, via Jason Kidd. After Mike "Asterisk" Wilbon was reminded that the Spurs exist, he differed with Kornheiser in thinking that the Spurs need something push them past LAL and PHX.

[batboy]

BTW these clips are available on ESPN video.

[Cloud786]

Imagine a small ball lineup of Duncan-Artest-Udoka-Bowen-Ginobili while Parker is out.. How sick would our defense be?

[Holt's Cat]

As long as Artest doesn't forget to take his meds.

[remingtonbo2001]

I've got some ocean front property to sell ya remintonbo, PM me.

:lol

If it's along the northern Californa coast......

[jag]

Imagine a small ball lineup of Duncan-Artest-Udoka-Bowen-Ginobili while Parker is out.. How sick would our defense be?

Wouldnt be too hot when Gasol manhandles Artest in the Post for 30 min a game.

And since when was "Small ball" the goal here? Fuck small ball.

[batboy]

Imagine a small ball lineup of Duncan-Artest-Udoka-Bowen-Ginobili while Parker is out.. How sick would our defense be?

Small Ball AND Artest? This suggestion is really firing on all cylinders of fail.

[T Park]

Wow dude - you're on a roll pulling shit out of your ass lately.

It happens once every 5 years.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

You take a shit only once every 5 years??

[T Park]

Small Ball AND Artest? This suggestion is really firing on all cylinders of fail.

A big well rebounding small forward that can guard nowitki and gasol or whatever?

It has the suggestion of firing on all cylinders of success.

[T Park]

You take a shit only once every 5 years??

Gets painfull.

[Holt's Cat]

3ECdhVp8mMQ

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

You take a shit only once every 5 years??
You know how much money he saves on not buying toilet paper???

[T Park]

nobody in that audience had a clue who Jack Benny nor Phil Harris was.

[SScarrJ]

Why do you guys want to hold on to Berry so bad? I would understand if we didnt bring in D. Stoudamire but since we did Berry is expendable. Stoudamire is a shooter who can put it on the floor and create for others just like Berry.

Kurt gives us a solid 3rd big in our rotation and 20 -30 good minutes of low post defense on the opposing teams best big. I think he would be especially good vs a guy like Gasol.

With Kurt were able to match up great vs every team we play in the playoffs.

[jag]

A big well rebounding small forward that can guard nowitki and gasol or whatever?

It has the suggestion of firing on all cylinders of success.

You really think Artest could guard Gasol in the post?

[m33p0]

trading away a legitimate 3 pointer shooter and stop-gap point guard in barry?

elson and bonner should be our trade pieces. don't care if noone wants them. don't trade away barry.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Paige is a DENVER columnist - of course he wants us to make a stupid trade like Wallace or Artest. On Artest, he is the ultimate CANCER, and more than that just fuggedaboutit - Pop acquires players with character, team guys, and that is not Artest. I would be extremely surprised if Pop traded for Artest - in fact, he simply WON'T.

I don't think there will be a major trade after such a successful RRT without Tony. I think the "we're doing it with this group" speech will come out the day after the trade deadline. If anything, we might see Elson and a 2nd rounder swapped for a 6 foul low-post defender type like one of the Collins brothers.

I hope Barry does come back after the ASB. His shooting, passing and energy change the nature of the second team. He is an important cog.


Besides, why is everyone so eager to trade Barry for players who will likely not learn the Spurs system by the time the playoffs roll around? And for players that likely won't help the Spurs retain their title, no less? You don't deal away his experience simply because his contract is a desirable trade commodity unless you are getting immediate help for this season and flexibility or talent for the future.

:tu

[Phenomanul]

Why do you guys want to hold on to Berry so bad? I would understand if we didnt bring in D. Stoudamire but since we did Berry is expendable. Stoudamire is a shooter who can put it on the floor and create for others just like Berry.

Kurt gives us a solid 3rd big in our rotation and 20 -30 good minutes of low post defense on the opposing teams best big. I think he would be especially good vs a guy like Gasol.

With Kurt were able to match up great vs every team we play in the playoffs.


Damon hasn't really learned our offensive sets yet....

Barry is a much better passer in the open court than Damon is or ever was.... Other than Ginobili, Barry is the one other guy who can consistently get our center(s) easy points - in particular Oberto.

Think about it; Tony gets most of his assists by dishing it out to the Spurs' spot up shooters, but rarely gets points for our centers (not named Duncan). Ironically, Tim probably works the inverted pick'n'roll with Tony more often than the traditional one.

Also, Kurt Thomas is more likely to get hurt than Barry.

[T Park]

You really think Artest could guard Gasol in the post?


Heck yeah. Gasol is a softie and can be pushed out quite easily.

[T Park]

Also, Kurt Thomas is more likely to get hurt than Barry

Whos playing and who isn't?

[Phenomanul]

Whos playing and who isn't?

Thomas has knee issues...

Small muscular tears like Barry's would heal even if he were 60 years old...

Cartilage problems can be more limiting.

[BonnerDynasty]

Whatever happened to guys needing to "learn our system". The system that supposedly takes 2 seasons to fully understand.

I guess we are suppose to bring in noobs in March and hope for that ring? Fuck that. And fuck next year and the year after next year.

Go in with what we have and get that repeat. If Barry won't be back at all this year, trade his ass. If he is coming back for playoffs healthy. Keep him, he is finally BARRY.

[T Park]

Thomas has knee issues...

Small muscular tears like Barry's would heal even if he were 60 years old...

Cartilage problems can be more limiting.


Brent Barry can't guard Shaq and Bynum now can he.

[T Park]

And fuck next year and the year after next year

That worked out great for the Miami Heat.

[Phenomanul]

Brent Barry can't guard Shaq and Bynum now can he.


That's a red herring argument.

Barry wasn't brought in to do that. Barry has filled his role exceptionally well this season. Why would we go into panic mode over what the other teams have done, and trade him now that he is finally doing what we thought he could do? You're premise of "let's trade Barry's expiring contract because he is injured and likely done..." is kind of rash.

Besides, Shaq is still a roll of the dice at this point, and who knows whether or not Bynum can return to his pre-injury level before the playoffs roll around because 1) he's coming back from a knee injury, 2) he still has to mesh with Pau, and 3) Oberto seems to have gotten in his head.

[td4mvp21]

The thing that is weakest right now is the interior D. I have faith in our perimeter D, its the interior D that isn't great. We aren't as good as we have been in the past because once we lock down the perimeter, the players just do pick and rolls, draw Duncan out, and then attack the rim with NO shot blocker there. We NEED someone besides Duncan that can be a defensive force. Kurt Thomas would provide that, he did a damn good job of it last year, although I never would have admitted that during the series :lol

[Phenomanul]

The thing that is weakest right now is the interior D. I have faith in our perimeter D, its the interior D that isn't great. We aren't as good as we have been in the past because once we lock down the perimeter, the players just do pick and rolls, draw Duncan out, and then attack the rim with NO shot blocker there. We NEED someone besides Duncan that can be a defensive force. Kurt Thomas would provide that, he did a damn good job of it last year, although I never would have admitted that during the series :lol


Bring in Ian Mahinmi....

[td4mvp21]

Bring in Ian Mahinmi....

Yeah, right. Pop won't even let him sniff the court in the playoffs. Not to mention he is FAR from ready. Don't get me wrong, I want young talent, but you can't bring them in after them spending the majority of the season in and out of the D-League, lacking significant REGULAR SEASON experience. It just doesn't work. And judging from others' posts on here and from what I saw with the little time he played, I don't think he's ready.

[Joe Schmoogins]

The thing that is weakest right now is the interior D. I have faith in our perimeter D, its the interior D that isn't great. We aren't as good as we have been in the past because once we lock down the perimeter, the players just do pick and rolls, draw Duncan out, and then attack the rim with NO shot blocker there. We NEED someone besides Duncan that can be a defensive force. Kurt Thomas would provide that, he did a damn good job of it last year, although I never would have admitted that during the series :lol


Tim ate him alive during the playoffs last year.

[td4mvp21]

Tim ate him alive during the playoffs last year.

That's because he's Tim fucking Duncan. He's the greatest power forward of all time. Thomas made him work, nothing came easy for Duncan in that series. He's just that fucking good. Thomas isn't some amazing player that's the Michael Jordan of power forwards, but he can guard people. He can make them work. I want him to make Shaq work. I want him to make Gasol/Bynum work. I want him to make Garnett work. That's the best way to try and stop the best, is to make them work. He's a good, smart, veteran defender too. He's not the best shot blocker but he can block shots more than Oberto. He's an excellent rebounder too.

[T Park]

Tim ate him alive during the playoffs last year.

Watch game 4 again.
Watch game 2 again.
Watch game 5 again


Thomas was a stud in that series.

[SScarrJ]

is it a crime to get dominated by the best player at that position? Is bowen a bad defender because Kobe goes off on him?

[remingtonbo2001]

Thomas has knee issues...

Small muscular tears like Barry's would heal even if he were 60 years old...

Cartilage problems can be more limiting.

:tu TPark...Are you listening.

I've had a calf tear. It feels like a charlie horse. It remains sore for maybe 1 to 2 weeks. From what I was told, it isn't a very serious injury. You just need time to recover. With bad knees, that's entirely different. Joint issues are usually long-term.

I could definitely see an aurgument of Thomas being more injury prone than Barry. There have got to be better deals out there than trading Barry/Elson for Thomas. If not, then I would seriously suggest standing pat, bringing in D-Rob and hopefully some of that einstien IQ will rub off on Elson.

[DuelDouble]

They despirately need to make a big trade. a HUGE trade!

[SAGambler]

Trading for Ben Wallace would be about the dumbest move the Spurs could make.

Woody Paige is such an idiot.

A fuckin MEN...


Looking at teams like Miami we can see what happens when a team makes a deal that only prepares them for 1 or 2 future seasons. Sure Shaq got them a Title, but that team is now worse off then they were before the trade.

No he didn't.... The Mavericks gave them a title. By Choking Big Time. The reality is that Shaq should have left Miami without fulfilling his promise to bring a championship to the franchise.

[BlackSwordsMan]

Sup jag

[td4mvp3]

3ECdhVp8mMQ
my god that was funny.

[Joe Schmoogins]

Thomas was a stud in that series.

TIM was a STUD in that series... Don't confuse it. Thomas was ok. He played solid D, but nothing AMAZING like you all seem to remember. Check the stats...

2007 Western Conference semifinals:

Tim's stats

Game 1
12-24, 16 rebs, 3 blks, 33 points.

Game 2
12-20, 11 rebs, 2 blks, 29 points.

Game 3
12-19, 19 rebs, 3 blks, 33 points.

Game 4
9-14, 11 rebs, 3 blks, 21 points.

Game 5
7-14, 12 rebs, 5 blks, 21 points.

Game 6
11-19, 13 rebs, 9 blks, 24 points.

AVERAGES:
per game: 57% shooting, 13.66 rebs, 4.16 blks, 26.8 pts



Kurt Thomas (not a stud)

Game 1
2 rebs, 1 stl, 0 blks

Game 2
4 rebs, 3 stl, 0 blks

Game 3
12 rebs, 1 stl, 3 blks

Game 4
5 reb, 0 stl, 2 blk

Game 5
12 reb, 0stl, 2 blk

Game 6
3 reb, 0 stl, 0 blk

AVERAGES:
per game: 6.33 reb, .833 stl, 1.16 blks


I watched every minute of that series... Kurt played alright, but nothing to be worshiping him about. He was no stud by any means. I even remember listening to the announcers spout the bs all series long, and it was making me sick...

[T Park]

He was able to guard Duncan with no help keeping Stoudamire out of foul trouble.

But keep hating on a good defensive center.

I don't know why you think hes better than Francisco freakin Elson.

[Joe Schmoogins]

I never said elson was better...
and I gave him as much props as he deserves... he did alright.

I just don't think HE helps us as much as a healthy Barry can... All things considered.

I'd rather take our chances with Fab and Francisco, while sticking to our guns, keeping our chemistry intact, and using Barry to be that other offensive spark off the bench then taking our chances with Kurt Thomas and the question marks involved in that trade.

Will he learn our defensive scheme in time?
Will he mesh with Duncan?
Is he worth the cash, and another draft pick?
Will we miss Barry's spark and sharp shooting?

I don't know... you don't know either. I'd rather stick with what we've got.

[Joe Schmoogins]

He was able to guard Duncan with no help keeping Stoudamire out of foul trouble.


Interestingly enough... 2 of the four games where thomas played over 26 minutes... amare WAS in foul trouble (games 3 and 4). One of those four games Amare didn't play (game 5).

So he actually only helped keep amare out of foul trouble in one game.
(game 2)

[Bob Lanier]

I want him to make Shaq work. I want him to make Gasol/Bynum work. I want him to make Garnett work. That's the best way to try and stop the best, is to make them work. He's a good, smart, veteran defender too. He's not the best shot blocker but he can block shots more than Oberto. He's an excellent rebounder too.

http://www.kwamebrown.org/images/kwame-pic-lakers.jpg