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George Gervin's Afro
02-15-2008, 10:38 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,330778,00.html

U.S. Officials Defend Plan to Shoot Down Satellite
Friday, February 15, 2008

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U.S. Air Force


The Delta II rocket carrying spy satellite USA-193/NRO L-21 launches Dec. 14, 2006, from Vandenberg Air Force Base in California.
WASHINGTON — Taking a page from Hollywood science fiction, the Pentagon said Thursday it will try to shoot down a dying, bus-size U.S. spy satellite loaded with toxic fuel on a collision course with the Earth.

The military hopes to smash the satellite as soon as next week — just before it enters Earth's atmosphere — with a single missile fired from a Navy cruiser in the northern Pacific Ocean.

The dramatic maneuver may well trigger international concerns, and U.S. officials have begun notifying other countries of the plan — stressing that it does not signal the start of a new American anti-satellite weapons program.

• Click here to visit FOXNews.com's Space Center.

Military and administration officials said the satellite is carrying fuel called hydrazine that could injure or even kill people who are near it when it hits the ground.

That reason alone, they said, persuaded President Bush to order the shoot-down.

"That is the only thing that breaks it out, that is worthy of taking extraordinary measures," said Gen. James Cartwright, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, during a Pentagon briefing.

RelatedStories
Astronauts Make Final Spacewalk of Shuttle Mission Pentagon Plans to Shoot Down Failing Satellite U.S. Military Prepares to Handle Crashing Spy Satellite Dead Spy Satellite Could Hit Earth Within a Month, Officials Say He predicted a fairly high chance — as much as 80 percent — of hitting the satellite, which will be about 150 miles up when the shot is fired.

The window of opportunity for taking the satellite down, Cartwright said, opens in three or four days and lasts for about seven or eight days.

"We'll take one shot and assess," he said. "This is the first time we've used a tactical missile to engage a spacecraft."

Deputy National Security Adviser James Jeffrey discounted comparisons to an anti-satellite test conducted by the Chinese last year that triggered criticism from the U.S. and other countries.

"This is all about trying to reduce the danger to human beings," Jeffrey said. "Specifically, there was enough of a risk for the president to be quite concerned about human life."

There might also be unstated military aims, some outside the administration suggested.

Similar spacecraft re-enter the atmosphere regularly and break up into pieces, said Ivan Oelrich, vice president for strategic security programs at the Federation of American Scientists.

He said, "One could be forgiven for asking if this is just an excuse to test an anti-satellite weapon."

A key issue when China shot down its defunct weather satellite was that it created an enormous amount of space debris.

"All of the debris from this encounter, as carefully designed as it is, will be down at most within weeks, and most of it will be down within the first couple of orbits afterward," said Jeffrey. "There's an enormous difference to spacefaring nations in ... those two things."

He and others dismissed suggestions that this was simply an attempt by the U.S. to flex its muscles, and that officials were overstating the toxic fuel threat.

Left alone, the satellite would be expected to hit Earth during the first week of March. About half of the 5,000-pound spacecraft would be expected to survive its blazing descent through the atmosphere and would scatter debris over several hundred miles.

If the missile shot is successful, officials said, much of the debris would burn up as it fell. They said they could not estimate how much would make it through the atmosphere.

They said the largest piece that would survive re-entry would be the spherical fuel tank, which is about 40 inches wide — assuming it is not hit directly by the missile.

The goal, however, is to hit the fuel tank in order to minimize the amount of fuel that returns to Earth, Cartwright said.

A Navy missile known as Standard Missile 3 would be fired at the spy satellite in an attempt to intercept it just before it re-enters Earth's atmosphere.

It would be "next to impossible" to hit the satellite after that because of atmospheric disturbances, he said.

Known by its military designation US 193, the satellite was launched in December 2006. It lost power and its central computer failed almost immediately afterward, leaving it uncontrollable. It carried a sophisticated and secret imaging sensor.

Software associated with the Standard Missile 3 has been modified to enhance the chances of the missile's sensors recognizing that the satellite is its target. The missile's designed mission is to shoot down ballistic missiles, not satellites.

Other officials said the missile's maximum range, while a classified figure, is not great enough to hit a satellite operating in normal orbits.

"It's a one-time deal," Cartwright said when asked whether the modified Standard Missile 3 should be considered a new U.S. anti-satellite technology.

He said that if an initial shoot-down attempt fails, the military would have about two days to reassess and decide whether to take a second shot.

NASA Administrator Michael Griffin told reporters that analysis shows the hydrazine tank would survive a fall to Earth under normal circumstances, much as one did when the space shuttle Columbia crashed.

"The hydrazine which is in it is frozen solid, as it is now. Not all of it will melt," he said.

If the tank hits the ground it will have been breached because the fuel lines will have broken off and hydrazine will vent out, he said.

Jeffrey said members of Congress were briefed on the plan earlier Thursday and that diplomatic notifications to other countries were being made by the end of the day.

"It should be understood by all, at home and abroad, that this is an exceptional circumstance and should not be perceived as the standard U.S. policy for dealing with errant satellites," said House Armed Services Chairman Ike Skelton.



Does anyone else find this odd? I may be way off base but I am beginning to wonder if we are getting ready to show the world (China) that we can shoot down satellites. Of course the only way to show this without causing WWIII is to have a reason to do it. I'm ok with it.. It's good to let China know that we are still watching them..

JoeChalupa
02-15-2008, 10:41 AM
I don't think the US is the only country capable of shooting down a satellite.

xrayzebra
02-15-2008, 10:49 AM
I don't think the US is the only country capable of shooting down a satellite.

I think China would agree with that statement. Since they
have done just that.

fyatuk
02-15-2008, 11:30 AM
I have no idea about the health hazards of the fuel, but I can imagine not wanting the "sophisticated and secret imaging sensor" to fall into other hands. Normally you can just direct it to fall where you want and be the first one there to salvage, but since this one is uncontrollable...

xrayzebra
02-15-2008, 11:34 AM
I have no idea about the health hazards of the fuel, but I can imagine not wanting the "sophisticated and secret imaging sensor" to fall into other hands. Normally you can just direct it to fall where you want and be the first one there to salvage, but since this one is uncontrollable...

I just hope the Navy doesn't screw up and miss. Egg on
face would not even begin to cover a miss.

DarkReign
02-15-2008, 01:07 PM
I just hope the Navy doesn't screw up and miss. Egg on
face would not even begin to cover a miss.

I wouldnt blame the Navy if they missed if the missle theyre using is as "temporary" as they make it sound.

Personally, I dont buy the bullshit about the missle. I bet its a new type and this is its field test.

But I have nothing to back that up. A missle that can bring down a satellite in orbit can only be tested one way, and its very very public to any country with their eye to the sky. So you better have a cover story...

1369
02-15-2008, 01:15 PM
I don't see what the big deal is, the USAF has had the capability to "shoot down" satellites utilizing F-15's since the '80's.

inconvertible
02-15-2008, 01:26 PM
Does anyone else find this odd? I may be way off base but I am beginning to wonder if we are getting ready to show the world (China) that we can shoot down satellites. Of course the only way to show this without causing WWIII is to have a reason to do it. I'm ok with it.. It's good to let China know that we are still watching them..


shooting down an incoming satellite at the speed of an incoming ICBM or an incoming Columbia.....would be impressive, and imposing.

Spurminator
02-15-2008, 01:46 PM
Violence is not the answer.

boutons_
02-15-2008, 03:09 PM
China already demonstrated a couple years ago that they can shoot down satellites, and really shocked the US NatSec people.

Russia is putting lots of pressure in E.Euro countries not permit installation of US missiles aimed at ... Russia.

duh, what's the matter, Putin, haven't bought into dubya's "all fear all the time"? Relax pull down your pants, bend over, dubya's EXCELLENT at fucking people over gratuitously.

xrayzebra
02-15-2008, 03:13 PM
boutons, get up to speed if you are going to post.

101A
02-15-2008, 03:40 PM
China already demonstrated a couple years ago that they can shoot down satellites, and really shocked the US NatSec people.

Russia is putting lots of pressure in E.Euro countries not permit installation of US missiles aimed at ... Russia.

duh, what's the matter, Putin, haven't bought into dubya's "all fear all the time"? Relax pull down your pants, bend over, dubya's EXCELLENT at fucking people over gratuitously.Putin > Bush

Got it.

101A
02-15-2008, 03:41 PM
Violence is not the answer.The only problem with pacifists throughout the ages, is that they always get killed by the aggressors.

MannyIsGod
02-15-2008, 05:01 PM
I don't see what the big deal is, the USAF has had the capability to "shoot down" satellites utilizing F-15's since the '80's.God damn man - I thought everyone who read Tom Clancy knew that!

:lol in all seriousness yeah. Its all a matter of physics that really aren't that hard by today's standards. ABM is much harder than ASAT.

Aggie Hoopsfan
02-15-2008, 09:07 PM
China already demonstrated a couple years ago that they can shoot down satellites, and really shocked the US NatSec people.

Russia is putting lots of pressure in E.Euro countries not permit installation of US missiles aimed at ... Russia.

duh, what's the matter, Putin, haven't bought into dubya's "all fear all the time"? Relax pull down your pants, bend over, dubya's EXCELLENT at fucking people over gratuitously.

You are such a fucking sheep.

Obviously we should let this thing come down wherever, the hell with the possibility it could land in a city or whatever and kill some people.

If we can shoot it down and not worry about it having to land on someone's head, what's the big deal?

Oh that's right, you're the whiniest cunt on the board and have to bitch about it.

1369
02-15-2008, 09:16 PM
God damn man - I thought everyone who read Tom Clancy knew that!

:lol in all seriousness yeah. Its all a matter of physics that really aren't that hard by today's standards. ABM is much harder than ASAT.

I don't remember the exact year, but the USAF killed on old weather satellite with a missle but shelved the program over concerns about treaties. I'm on my phone, but there's an account of it on Global Security. My guess is that is posturing to show the advanced naval capabilities.

spurster
02-15-2008, 09:53 PM
Sure, why not fill up space with more junk to dodge.

The US complained mightily about China's satellite hit for this reason, and now, the US is going to do the same thing?

LaMarcus Bryant
02-15-2008, 10:02 PM
Does anyone else find this odd? I may be way off base but I am beginning to wonder if we are getting ready to show the world (China) that we can shoot down satellites. Of course the only way to show this without causing WWIII is to have a reason to do it. I'm ok with it.. It's good to let China know that we are still watching them..


I was thinking the same exact thing today. DarkReign sheds even more light on it.

They have known this moment would come since the satellite went into orbit years ago, IIRC. And we just heard news a couple weeks ago that Iran plans to send a satellite into orbit very soon. I don't think its coincidence, and its convenient for the government to use the plausible health hazard excuse to knock it down. This isn't to show off to China or Russia, but probably for Iran. DarkReign may be onto something, I wouldn't doubt they are knocking down two birds with one stone and testing a new anti satellite missile.

BonnerDynasty
02-15-2008, 10:04 PM
I heard Dick gets to pull the trigger!

Wild Cobra
02-16-2008, 12:02 AM
I have no idea about the health hazards of the fuel, but I can imagine not wanting the "sophisticated and secret imaging sensor" to fall into other hands. Normally you can just direct it to fall where you want and be the first one there to salvage, but since this one is uncontrollable...
I think that's one problem with it. I believe they cannot control the thrusters!

Wild Cobra
02-16-2008, 12:06 AM
I heard Dick gets to pull the trigger!
Is he going to ride the missile up amd take his shotgun?

possessed
02-16-2008, 12:15 AM
Is he going to ride the missile up amd take his shotgun?
That would be f'n sweet. He'd be a bigger hero than Rambo.

Wild Cobra
02-16-2008, 12:22 AM
Shows how serious I take the politics and spin behind this.

I trust the officials in this case to shoot it down. I don't care about any politics behind this. Just tell me when the mission is accomplished, or failed, and if it fails, where it may fall.

Otherwise, this is a waste of cyberspace.

Clandestino
02-16-2008, 08:25 AM
Sure, why not fill up space with more junk to dodge.

The US complained mightily about China's satellite hit for this reason, and now, the US is going to do the same thing?

no, us is going to shoot it closer down so more of it burns up.

boutons_
02-16-2008, 11:05 AM
"The US complained mightily about China's satellite hit for this reason, and now, the US is going to do the same thing?"

USA has one set of rules fo USA (USA can fuckover everybody else), and another set of rules for everybody else (frown at us and we'll bomb your ass).

The USA installing missiles on Russia's doorstep is OK.

But if Russia began sailing surface-surface missile cruisers continuously just outside USA's territorial waters, the USA would go nuts.

inconvertible
02-16-2008, 01:28 PM
China already demonstrated a couple years ago that they can shoot down satellites, and really shocked the US NatSec people.

Russia is putting lots of pressure in E.Euro countries not permit installation of US missiles aimed at ... Russia.

duh, what's the matter, Putin, haven't bought into dubya's "all fear all the time"? Relax pull down your pants, bend over, dubya's EXCELLENT at fucking people over gratuitously.


I forgot about that. we are just returning the favor. and trying to make it seem like the "safe" thing to do. :rolleyes


sheeple are so stupid.

Aggie Hoopsfan
02-16-2008, 02:31 PM
Death to Amerika

boutons_
02-16-2008, 02:36 PM
"this is a waste of cyberspace."

your prick-ful, condescending, conceited contribution to this thread is ... wasted. tsk tsk.

Hey Aggie, can't refute my dissent, so boutons in anti-Amerika. yawn

Clandestino
02-16-2008, 09:14 PM
what china did and the u.s. is going to do are different... boutons, where do you live for real?... tell us which taliban cave you're posting from...

boutons_
02-16-2008, 11:07 PM
Clanny, go fuck yourself

LaMarcus Bryant
02-16-2008, 11:36 PM
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSL1645129720080216


Russia says U.S. may use satellite blast as test

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia's Defence Ministry said on Saturday a U.S. plan to shoot down an ailing spy satellite could be used as a cover to test a new space weapon.

The ministry said there was insufficient proof that Washington's decision to fire a missile at the disabled satellite was to prevent a potentially deadly leak of toxic gas as it re-entered Earth's atmosphere.

"In our opinion, the decision to destroy the U.S. satellite is not as harmless as it is being presented. Especially as the United States has been avoiding talks on restricting a space arms race for quite a long time," the ministry's information department said in a statement.

"Under cover of discussions about the danger posed by the satellite, preparation is going ahead for tests of an anti-satellite weapon. Such tests mean in essence the creation of a new strategic weapon."

U.S. officials said on Thursday that President George W. Bush had decided to have the Navy shoot the 5,000-pound (2,270 kg) satellite with a modified tactical missile after security advisers suggested its re-entry could lead to a loss of life.

Some space and security experts have said they did not believe Washington's justification for the plans and argued the Pentagon was more likely testing its ability to target other states' satellites.

This suggestion is rejected by U.S. officials.

It will be the first time the United States has conducted an anti-satellite operation since the 1980s. Russia also has not conducted anti-satellite activities in 20 years.

(Reporting by Tanya Mosolova)

Looks like some of us may have been on the right track.

Aggie Hoopsfan
02-17-2008, 12:15 AM
"this is a waste of cyberspace."

your prick-ful, condescending, conceited contribution to this thread is ... wasted. tsk tsk.

Hey Aggie, can't refute my dissent, so boutons in anti-Amerika. yawn

How can I refute your dissent? You're an idiot.

Aggie Hoopsfan
02-17-2008, 12:16 AM
Lamarcus:



U.S. officials said on Thursday that President George W. Bush had decided to have the Navy shoot the 5,000-pound (2,270 kg) satellite with a modified tactical missile after security advisers suggested its re-entry could lead to a loss of life.


The ministry said there was insufficient proof that Washington's decision to fire a missile at the disabled satellite was to prevent a potentially deadly leak of toxic gas as it re-entered Earth's atmosphere.

What is so hard to understand about this? If it falls in a civilized area, you're going to have to worry about the debris killing people, on top of any chemicals on board.

Who really gives a shit if Russia is doing some cold war style grandstanding about it? Fuck 'em.

LaMarcus Bryant
02-17-2008, 12:22 AM
Lamarcus:





What is so hard to understand about this? If it falls in a civilized area, you're going to have to worry about the debris killing people, on top of any chemicals on board.

Who really gives a shit if Russia is doing some cold war style grandstanding about it? Fuck 'em.


Dude I never doubted the validity of the official reason for doing this, not sincerely anyways, but I am totally buying that they're using this to kill two birds with one stone.

From my understanding of it, the hydrozine can burn up in the atmosphere, possibly without blowing the thing up. I also believe they don't wanna leave any moderately intact pieces for others to find.....
So I guess its three birds with one stone.

The "coldwar style grandstanding" is moderately interesting to watch unfold. Really, especially in the context of this thread, this article was quite predictable, don't you think?

LaMarcus Bryant
02-17-2008, 12:29 AM
I'm not boutons_____ing out and saying "fucking shrub and this stupid country america blowing up that stupid satellite just to show off"

I'm saying its a potential threat, health wise and national security wise, but really, if you were in charge, why wouldn't you use this opportunity to try out a new weapon?

I think destroying this in some grand fashion would send Iran a message. Stay out of space, fuckers.
Make that four birds with one stone.

sabar
02-17-2008, 02:35 AM
Of course they are testing a new weapon, the government would be stupid not to. In the event that we ever are in conflict with a developed country, anti-satellite weaponry would be an extremely easy way to obliterate huge amounts of infrastructure at a low cost.

It's sad that space for peace is coming to a close, but humanity is violent. Look at all the nukes the world still has.

Aggie Hoopsfan
02-17-2008, 03:56 AM
Of course they are testing a new weapon, the government would be stupid not to. In the event that we ever are in conflict with a developed country, anti-satellite weaponry would be an extremely easy way to obliterate huge amounts of infrastructure at a low cost.

It's sad that space for peace is coming to a close, but humanity is violent. Look at all the nukes the world still has.

Yeah, it's gotta be something new, as we already have proven the ability to shoot down satellites with air launched missiles.

boutons_
02-17-2008, 09:18 AM
"why wouldn't you use this opportunity to try out a new weapon?"

estimated cost to shoot: $60M, probably more like $100M due to overrun. You never know with the military, they have infinite funds available through debt financing and scare-mongering.

estimated chance of not landing in the ocean: infinitesimal.

This a political ploy, show-boating by the WH, NOT a concern for human safety (unless there was risk of coming down in US oil supplier's country)

It would be a huge joke, 100s of Late Night jokes, if dubya missed. I'm sure there are some sleepless nights by the boys and girls of the MDA, Missile Defense Agency, who have had way more public shoot-down failures not offset by successes. Missile shield is one of the Repugs ideological Holy Grails.

"Having the US government spend millions of dollars to destroy a billion-dollar failure to save zero lives is comedic gold."


Experts Scoff at Sat Shoot-Down Rationale

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/02/fishy-rationale.html

inconvertible
02-17-2008, 09:53 AM
Does anyone else find this odd? I may be way off base but I am beginning to wonder if we are getting ready to show the world (China) that we can shoot down satellites. Of course the only way to show this without causing WWIII is to have a reason to do it. I'm ok with it.. It's good to let China know that we are still watching them..


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080216/ap_on_re_eu/russia_dead_satellite


nice call. :toast

Cant_Be_Faded
02-17-2008, 02:37 PM
What is also funny is that both China and Russia have been pushing for a new treaty on weapons in outer space.

Aggie Hoopsfan
02-17-2008, 03:35 PM
"why wouldn't you use this opportunity to try out a new weapon?"

estimated cost to shoot: $60M, probably more like $100M due to overrun. You never know with the military, they have infinite funds available through debt financing and scare-mongering.

estimated chance of not landing in the ocean: infinitesimal.

This a political ploy, show-boating by the WH, NOT a concern for human safety (unless there was risk of coming down in US oil supplier's country)

It would be a huge joke, 100s of Late Night jokes, if dubya missed. I'm sure there are some sleepless nights by the boys and girls of the MDA, Missile Defense Agency, who have had way more public shoot-down failures not offset by successes. Missile shield is one of the Repugs ideological Holy Grails.

"Having the US government spend millions of dollars to destroy a billion-dollar failure to save zero lives is comedic gold."


Experts Scoff at Sat Shoot-Down Rationale

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/02/fishy-rationale.html (http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/02/fishy-rationale.h

tml)

A blogger <> expert. :lol

LMAO at your talking about scare mongering, that's all you do on this board.

boutons_
02-17-2008, 04:27 PM
The scare-mongering is coming from dubya, not from me.

The chance of any person getting hit by this satellite are one in a trillion, vs. 1 in less than 2 million for getting struck by lightening in the USA.

Keep believing whatever dubya and his military brown-nosing career-padders tell ya, they've never lied to us.

BonnerDynasty
02-17-2008, 05:34 PM
http://cool-tee-shirts.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/bt-finderskeepers-featured-2407.jpg

Wild Cobra
02-17-2008, 08:25 PM
I don't care what the governments real reason is. It isn't anything that will harm America. Anyone who is arguing against our nation on this one is a fucking enemy of the US in my view.

Fucking traitors. Move to a country that embraces you views.

Aggie Hoopsfan
02-17-2008, 10:54 PM
The scare-mongering is coming from dubya, not from me.

The chance of any person getting hit by this satellite are one in a trillion, vs. 1 in less than 2 million for getting struck by lightening in the USA.

Keep believing whatever dubya and his military brown-nosing career-padders tell ya, they've never lied to us.

The difference is, the government can't do anything to prevent you or me from getting hit by lightning.

They can (and are planning to) prevent this thing from falling on our heads.

You really are dumb, you know that? I could care less what Bush and Co. are saying about why they are doing this. The facts are that thing is up there, it's coming down, there's a chance it could land in a civilized area, the U.S. can prevent that from becoming a reality (and is).

Everything else is mindless partisan bitching.

Cant_Be_Faded
02-17-2008, 11:21 PM
according to the boutons school of thought, dubya is making all decisions regarding this issue, and will also be firing the missile himself.

Holt's Cat
02-17-2008, 11:47 PM
http://www.davidstuff.com/usa/lincoln/bush-helmet.jpg

DarkReign
02-17-2008, 11:58 PM
http://www.davidstuff.com/usa/lincoln/bush-helmet.jpg

:lmao

For a guy who spent the better part of his young life avoiding military duty, this picture is irony personified.