Kidd to Dallas is inevitable

[Findog]

It just looks like what's holding it up is a few million in cash. One of these teams is going to blink.

http://www.nj.com/nets/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-1/1203226551272060.xml&coll=1

After four days, innumerable conversations, several detours, a few counteroffers, and an ongoing stare down, the status of Jason Kidd and Devin Harris essentially boils down to this today: Which side is more eager to finish the deal this weekend, and who is willing to pay the larger price to get it done?

The Nets and Dallas Mavericks can make a deal that is very similar to the original trade they agreed upon last Wednesday, if one team agrees to absorb a bigger financial hit.

"They're still working at it," one team official said last night, requesting anonymity because he is not authorized to speak for the Nets. "It's just that there aren't a lot of possibilities to choose from. Both parties want to come out of this weekend with a deal done."

The refusal by Mavs forward Devean George to be part of the deal -- which is his right, as he would be relinquishing his flexibility when he become a free agent this summer -- has sent both sides back to the drawing board, but the options have become fairly clear.

The Nets want Dallas to substitute Keith Van Horn for George, which would make the trade virtually identical to the original. But Dallas owner Mark Cuban does not want to use the semi-retired forward, because it would make him absorb another $2 million tax hit this summer by virtue of keeping George on his payroll.

The Mavericks want to include Trenton Hassell in the deal, which would force the Nets to include Antoine Wright as a part of the package to make the numbers add up. But Nets president Rod Thorn wants no part of Hassell, because he (unlike George or Van Horn, whose contracts would expire this summer) has two years left on his deal, at $4.3 million for each season.

One side wants to do it one way, the other side wants to do it the other way, and there may not be a modus vivendi.

Not even the man of honor knows how it is going to turn out, and he spoke with Thorn personally Friday night.

"All I can say is that they're still talking," Kidd said yesterday, after the Eastern Conference practice for today's All-Star Game. "Only two people who really know the whole situation, and that's Rod and Cuban. I'm sure I'll hear from Rod today. I'm in the dark just like everybody else."

Eventually, one side could blink, but both sides have a legitimate reason to wait out the other.

The Nets believe Dallas should take the hit, because the Mavs have bungled the deal from the start by agreeing to the deal last Wednesday without knowing George's intentions. Moreover, Dallas has a delicate team chemistry to consider, because the status quo is likely to cause problems in the Mavs' locker room, if you listen to Dirk Nowitzki.

"As a team, we have to make the best of it, stay focused and keep the group together," the Mavs' All-Star forward said. "That's all you can do. Once everyone starts going in a different direction, then the chemistry will get messed up. Once the locker room gets separated, there's no way we'll reach our goal."

The Mavs, meanwhile, believe the Nets are just as desperate to finish the deal, because Kidd has already punched out mentally on their team, and it makes little sense to prolong the inevitable bust-up. Additionally, the Nets were making out better financially in the first place: The original deal sliced $11 million off their cap next season, and the inclusion of Hassell still makes it a $7 million gain -- well under the luxury tax.

[mavsfan1000]

If the Nets don't give in, DON'T DO THE DEAL. I didn't like the deal to start with but if Dallas can keep DG and Diop and send Hassel, I'm for it than.

[Findog]

I can't believe this isn't getting done because of an additional $4 million in cost to Dallas or New Jersey. Cuban is willing to spend that to upgrade his team, and New Jersey is still going to get cap relief.

[ludda]

Would KVH agree to this? Is the league going to be more strict on that sort of thing? Those are two major issues.

And how about Stackhouse? Is he included or not?

If it doesnt happen, it would probably fuck up the mavs even more in terms of their mentality. Especially since Dirk seems to want this to happen and Terry and Stackhouse were already celebrating it. Haha, a mess typical of the mavs.

[Findog]

Would KVH agree to this? Is the league going to be more strict on that sort of thing? Those are two major issues.

And how about Stackhouse? Is he included or not?

If it doesnt happen, it would probably fuck up the mavs even more in terms of their mentality. Especially since Dirk seems to want this to happen and Terry and Stackhouse were already celebrating it. Haha, a mess typical of the mavs.

Yes, Stack would be included. The sticking point is that the Nets want to sub in KVH for George, while the Mavs want to sub in Trenton Hassell and then the Nets throw in Antoine Wright. Originally, Wright was coming to Dallas in a side deal, but now he'd be thrown into the main one. Based on the way I'm reading it, there's about another $4 million in costs to do it without George, and it's down to which team is going to get stuck with that additional cost. I imagine they compromise some way.

[ludda]

Are the mavs willing to risk trading Stack and then having to deal with the league? There is the possibility he wouldnt/couldnt return.

If the article is true, it's singing a different tune from the one on ESPN which seemed to imply the trade wasn't going to happen before the deadline.

[mavsfan1000]

Yes, Stack would be included. The sticking point is that the Nets want to sub in KVH for George, while the Mavs want to sub in Trenton Hassell and then the Nets throw in Antoine Wright. Originally, Wright was coming to Dallas in a side deal, but now he'd be thrown into the main one. Based on the way I'm reading it, there's about another $4 million in costs to do it without George, and it's down to which team is going to get stuck with that additional cost. I imagine they compromise some way.
I don't since it sounds like the Nets GM is wanting too much.

[Bob Lanier]

http://www.mattbeals.com/images/otay.jpg

[Findog]

Are the mavs willing to risk trading Stack and then having to deal with the league? There is the possibility he wouldnt/couldnt return.


Yes, because David Stern himself has come out and said that there is nothing wrong with Stack waiting out the 30 days and coming back to Dallas, the only problem was if there had been some sort of binding side deal arranged as part of the trade itself, and there's not one shred of evidence that there was.



If the article is true, it's singing a different tune from the one on ESPN which seemed to imply the trade wasn't going to happen before the deadline.

ESPN is such a piss-poor fucking outlet, it's sad. They drummed up the "Stack talked himself out of the trade" angle when there was nothing of substance to that line of reasoning.

[Findog]

I don't since it sounds like the Nets GM is wanting too much.

If it comes down to an extra $4 million in luxury tax, Cuban will do it if he has to to. This is more about who is going to assume those costs. Obviously, each side prefers the other absorb it. I'm now more optimistic that this happens.

[mavsfan1000]

If it comes down to an extra $4 million in luxury tax, Cuban will do it if he has to to. This is more about who is going to assume those costs. Obviously, each side prefers the other absorb it. I'm now more optimistic that this happens.
Dallas is already giving up too much. It is New Jerseys time to make up for the bad deal which the public knows. Much harder to get a steal now for the nets GM. Harris is more valuable than what this deal portrays.

[Findog]

Dallas is already giving up too much. It is New Jerseys time to make up for the bad deal which the public knows. Much harder to get a steal now for the nets GM. Harris is more valuable than what this deal portrays.

Since we're getting Stack back, it's basically Devin and two scrubs, plus two first-round picks that will most likely be in the twenties. That's not too bad.

[mavsfan1000]

Since we're getting Stack back, it's basically Devin and two scrubs, plus two first-round picks that will most likely be in the twenties. That's not too bad.
Diop is not a scrub. He is a key player to our run as he will be needed against big men. I'd feel much better about this deal if Diop was left out.

[Findog]

Diop is not a scrub. He is a key player to our run as he will be needed against big men. I'd feel much better about this deal if Diop was left out.

Since Avery refuses to use him, it's a moot point. I don't see why Diop has been in the doghouse all year long, but even at his best, he is not a threat on offense. He does us no good, whether he's sitting on the bench or wearing a Nets uniform.

[mavsfan1000]

Since Avery refuses to use him, it's a moot point. I don't see why Diop has been in the doghouse all year long, but even at his best, he is not a threat on offense. He does us no good, whether he's sitting on the bench or wearing a Nets uniform.
Against Duncan, Yao and Shaq, we will need him. Those are 3 key teams we will need him as Dampier can't play heavy minutes. Bass is horrible at center.

[Findog]

Against Duncan, Yao and Shaq, we will need him. Those are 3 key teams we will need him as Dampier can't play heavy minutes. Bass is horrible at center.

Tell it to Avery. I figured the Mavs had a backup plan in place if they dealt Diop away, like cooing sweet nothings in PJ Brown's ear.

[mavsfan1000]

Tell it to Avery. I figured the Mavs had a backup plan in place if they dealt Diop away, like cooing sweet nothings in PJ Brown's ear.
Yep if Avery keeps doing Bass as backup center, we are screwed. Bass equals A. Walker at center. Bass is Avery's new lover boy along with Stackhouse being there for 3 years now. I think our problem is we need a new coach that understands the importance of a defensive prescence at Center.

[some_user86]

Yep if Avery keeps doing Bass as backup center, we are screwed. Bass equals A. Walker at center. Bass is Avery's new lover boy along with Stackhouse being there for 3 years now. I think our problem is we need a new coach that understands the importance of a defensive prescence at Center.

I don't understand how Avery can not know that given he played next to David and Tim for so many years. I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just failing to comprehend how AJ can't understand this.

[mavsfan1000]

I don't understand how Avery can not know that given he played next to David and Tim for so many years. I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just failing to comprehend how AJ can't understand this.
Well I'm just going by what I'm seeing on the court. It's hard to read what Avery's trying to do. Sometimes he is making sense and other times he's not. Like leaving Stackhouse in the game despite horrible shooting or leaving Bass in the game while Dallas gets exploited defensively. Also he is so quick to take Harris out of the game while he lets Terry play through his mistakes.

[m33p0]

just be glad, mav fans, that the deal hadn't gone through when loudmouth talked. otherwise mavs would have been severely depleted.

[Cry Havoc]

Wow. Is anyone else wondering if this will be the best and most watched Conference playoffs since Michael and the Celtics/Lakers? Argue all you want about logistics, but people are excited about the NBA again and there is a slew of young talent to go crazy for.

[monosylab1k]

"As a team, we have to make the best of it, stay focused and keep the group together," the Mavs' All-Star forward said. "That's all you can do. Once everyone starts going in a different direction, then the chemistry will get messed up. Once the locker room gets separated, there's no way we'll reach our goal."

THIS is the reason this team won't win unless we get a guy like Kidd.

THIS IS OUR LEADER and he has such give-up and quit in his attitude. These guys don't believe in themselves anymore, end of story.

It's time for a new leader. At this point, Dallas NEEDS Jason Kidd.

[monosylab1k]

I think our problem is we need a new coach that understands the importance of a defensive prescence at Center.
If that's the case then there's about 28 NBA teams in need of new coaches.

[Findog]

THIS is the reason this team won't win unless we get a guy like Kidd.

THIS IS OUR LEADER and he has such give-up and quit in his attitude. These guys don't believe in themselves anymore, end of story.

That's not what he's saying and you know it. That message is directed at those guys included in the trade proposal who might still be Mavericks after the trade deadline. He's telling them they need to get over any huwt fweewings and suck it up. And he's right, a team can have all the talent in the world, but if the chemistry sucks, they're not going to do anything when the playoffs roll around.

[nsrammstein]

watching the Mavs - PHX game I was so glad to see the old dirk and terry back. I think that Dirk and the rest of the team is tired of just sitting back and watching the Devin & Josh fast break. With Kidd in dallas everyone will be a threat even dampier.

[Bruno]

I think that the trade must be done. It is in the interest of both teams.
Trading Kidd, an old player with a big salary, isn't an easy thing to do. Nets had a quite good deal for him,it's a great opportunity for them.
This trade has damaged Mavs' chemistry. If the trade isn't made, Mavs will be a worse team than before even if the roster is the same.

[Jeremy]

Against Duncan, Yao and Shaq, we will need him. Those are 3 key teams we will need him as Dampier can't play heavy minutes. Bass is horrible at center.

And even if Dampier was able to play the whole game and guard Shaq, who would guard Amare? The more I think about it, the more I'm liking this trade, if just for the simple fact that Dampier would be your only center, and he would have to guard BOTH Shaq AND Amare (who usually gets him into foul trouble, and whom he can't guard very well usually). Sounds good to me. :lol

[td4mvp21]

I don't know why Cuban even considered this trade. It seems the Mavs chemistry is going to be hurt a bit either way-if there is no trade, it's not like Devin Harris is going to be all happy-go-lucky. The Mavs are fine the way they are-if anything, they need a low post presence. Kidd doesn't give them that and I don't know why they would trade for an aging point guard, hoping he'll carry them to a title.

[YoMamaIsCallin]

How much did Cuban save by not matching Steve Nash's deal with Phoenix back before the 2004 series?

I wonder how it compares to what he's going to have to shell out for this deal.

He certainly seems to nickel-and-dime it at exactly the wrong time.

[Bruno]

And even if Dampier was able to play the whole game and guard Shaq, who would guard Amare? The more I think about it, the more I'm liking this trade, if just for the simple fact that Dampier would be your only center, and he would have to guard BOTH Shaq AND Amare (who usually gets him into foul trouble, and whom he can't guard very well usually). Sounds good to me. :lol

And who would guard Dirk ? Amare ?

You have two sides on a court and I think Dirk will be able to score more on Stoudamire than the opposite.

[Amarelooms]

And who would guard Dirk ? Amare ?

You have two sides on a court and I think Dirk will be able to score more on Stoudamire than the opposite.

Not so sure...Amare scores INSIDE with DUNKS...Dirk has to work for his and hope his jumper is on :elephant

[stretch]

And even if Dampier was able to play the whole game and guard Shaq, who would guard Amare? The more I think about it, the more I'm liking this trade, if just for the simple fact that Dampier would be your only center, and he would have to guard BOTH Shaq AND Amare (who usually gets him into foul trouble, and whom he can't guard very well usually). Sounds good to me. :lol
The question isn't who will guard Amare and Shaq. The question is who will Amare and Shaq guard? Neither of them play defense.

[td4mvp21]

Not so sure...Amare scores INSIDE with DUNKS...Dirk has to work for his and hope his jumper is on :elephant

His jumper is on most of the time...what hurts him is when that's the only shot he shoots during a game. He needs to mix it up and drive some, which is usually when he has his better games, no?

[td4mvp21]

The question isn't who will guard Amare and Shaq. The question is who will Amare and Shaq guard? Neither of them play defense.

:tu Neither of them can guard Duncan or Dirk.

[monosylab1k]

sun fan is also assuming shaq can stay healthy. if he's constantly hurt like he has been for the better part of the past 5 years, what makes you think he'll be at all effective in a fast paced offense? he'll never get into good enough playing shape for that.

[mavsfan1000]

If Dallas makes this deal, I think Phoenix and San Antonio beats. If not, I think we beat both. Yes Harris and Diop are that important to the matchups against those teams. Kidd is not the answer.

[monosylab1k]

If Dallas makes this deal, I think Phoenix and San Antonio beats. If not, I think we beat both. Yes Harris and Diop are that important to the matchups against those teams. Kidd is not the answer.
And what happens when we play Golden State? Or the Lakers? Or the Jazz? Or the Hornets? Or hell, the Celtics?

Designing a team to beat just one team wasn't smart, as it's left us vulnerable against alot of others. It makes alot more sense to design a team capable of beating the majority of other teams, and then if we play SA, we take our chances with what we have. There's no guarantee we play either SA or PHX in the playoffs anyways.

[hater]

please make it happen.

[Findog]

please make it happen.

We're all getting our wish:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87444

[mavsfan1000]

And what happens when we play Golden State? Or the Lakers? Or the Jazz? Or the Hornets? Or hell, the Celtics?

Designing a team to beat just one team wasn't smart, as it's left us vulnerable against alot of others. It makes alot more sense to design a team capable of beating the majority of other teams, and then if we play SA, we take our chances with what we have. There's no guarantee we play either SA or PHX in the playoffs anyways.
Phoenix and San Antonio not enough? Those are probably the 2 best teams in the West. The lakers have Pau Gasol as well. You need those big defenders to hide Dirk's vulnerabilities on defense. I don't think we beat Celtics no matter what lineup. They are stacked. So why waste the future on this if it's not going to get a title anyways?

[DubMcDub]

And even if Dampier was able to play the whole game and guard Shaq, who would guard Amare? The more I think about it, the more I'm liking this trade, if just for the simple fact that Dampier would be your only center, and he would have to guard BOTH Shaq AND Amare (who usually gets him into foul trouble, and whom he can't guard very well usually). Sounds good to me. :lol

Bass. He's not gonna shut down Amare but he'll hold his own. Amare abuses Diop and Dampier anyway--there's no way Bass can do worse.

[mavsfan1000]

Bass. He's not gonna shut down Amare but he'll hold his own. Amare abuses Diop and Dampier anyway--there's no way Bass can do worse.
Well Bass will be guarding Shaq. :rolleyes

[Findog]

We traded him away when he was a 3rd-year player and now we're getting him back at the tail end of his career. Just like the Mavs to settle for the bun and not the patty.

[mavsfan1000]

We traded him away when he was a 3rd-year player and now we're getting him back at the tail end of his career. Just like the Mavs to settle for the bun and not the patty.
Yep Kidd is done. Way to go Mark Cuban. Screwing this team over with your lack of understanding of Basketball.

[ludda]

And you guys had Nash...

[Findog]

And you guys had Nash...

There was a limit to what a team could achieve defensively with him and Dirk in the starting lineup together. People forget we got better without him.

[Findog]

Yep Kidd is done. Way to go Mark Cuban. Screwing this team over with your lack of understanding of Basketball.

I wouldn't go that far. It's universally acknowledged he's been dogging it in New Jersey and yet he's still damn near averaging a triple double. And he was arguably the best player for Team USA at the Olympic Qualifers last summer.

[mavsfan1000]

And you guys had Nash...
Yep Cuban lets Nash go at 29 since he is too old and pick up a 35 year old Kidd at a way higher price. Great job Cuban.

[Findog]

Yep Cuban lets Nash go at 29 since he is too old and pick up a 35 year old Kidd at a way higher price. Great job Cuban.

Hindsight is 20/20. Kidd comes off the books after next year. At the time, Nash was a guy with a history of not being very durable and he tended to break down in the playoffs and get outplayed by Mike Bibby and Tony Parker. Other than the injuries and durability, what has changed? How on earth did we ever get better without Nash?
:rolleyes

[mavsfan1000]

Hindsight is 20/20. Kidd comes off the books after next year. At the time, Nash was a guy with a history of not being very durable and he tended to break down in the playoffs and get outplayed by Mike Bibby and Tony Parker. Other than the injuries and durability, what has changed? How on earth did we ever get better without Nash?
:rolleyes
We got better without Nash cause we were stacked offensively but didn't have any defense. What made us better is getting bigs that could shot block and rebound, Harris, and Howard developing.

[Findog]

We got better without Nash cause we were stacked offensively but didn't have any defense. What made us better is getting bigs that could shot block and rebound, Harris, and Howard developing.

You forget Dampier from that equation. Grossly overpaid? Sure. Improved interior defense? Absolutely.

[ludda]

Kidd on TNT: has a gut feeling he'll be in Dallas.

[mavsfan1000]

You forget Dampier from that equation. Grossly overpaid? Sure. Improved interior defense? Absolutely.
Dampier is really needed though as he covers up Dirk's vulnerabilities. We are relying a lot heavier on Dampier now as he has no backup.

[ludda]

I agree with what Kenny said: Kidd makes Mavs in contention. They werent before.

Us spurs fans may like this trade, but I think in general people are quick to dismiss Kidd just lke they dismiss Shaq.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Kidd on TNT: has a gut feeling he'll be in Dallas.
:lol I know someone told him about the ESPN article. He's just trying to make it dramatic. :lol

[Findog]

So this looks like our roster now:

Starting lineup:

PG: Jason Kidd
SG: Eddie Jones
SF: Josh Howard
PF: Dirk Nowitzki
C: Erick Dampier

6th Man: Jason Terry
Rotation: Jerry Stackhouse
Rotation: Brandon Bass

Bench: Devean George, Antoine Wright, Juwan Howard, Darrell Armstrong

Non-Active Roster: Jose Juan Barea, Malik Allen

[mavsfan1000]

So this looks like our roster now:

Starting lineup:

PG: Jason Kidd
SG: Eddie Jones
SF: Josh Howard
PF: Dirk Nowitzki
C: Erick Dampier

6th Man: Jason Terry
Rotation: Jerry Stackhouse
Rotation: Brandon Bass

Bench: Devean George, Antoine Wright, Juwan Howard, Darrell Armstrong

Non-Active Roster: Jose Juan Barea, Malik Allen
I believe George has been outplaying Eddie Jones. I think Eddie Jones is the 9th man. How is Darrell Armstrong on the team?

[Findog]

I believe George has been outplaying Eddie Jones. I think Eddie Jones is the 9th man. How is Darrell Armstrong on the team?

Supposedly he's coming too. I think, I'm not totally sure on that.

[monosylab1k]

I believe George has been outplaying Eddie Jones
You're fucking retarded. Eddie Jones has been a solid team defender all year and even if he isn't shooting great, he's not jacking up any 0-11 nights. And Avery has purposely been scaling back Jones because he wants him fresh for the playoffs.

In fact, this new trade is WORSE IMO because Hassell is more valuable to this team than Dick Breath.