Hollinger: New and improved Kidd trade is still risky

[YoMamaIsCallin]

from ESPN Insider:

It's funny how things work out sometimes. Thanks to the loose lips of Jerry Stackhouse and the unwillingness of Devean George to be sent to New Jersey, the Mavs find themselves consummating a better version of the Jason Kidd trade than the one they originally tried to make, if the new version of the trade goes through.

No longer will they risk losing Stackhouse to a rival Western Conference team or, at best, be without his services during a key 30-day span while the team positions itself for the playoffs. And instead of giving up a quasi-useful role player in George, the Mavs will be trading the less effective Trenton Hassell along with the semiretired Keith Van Horn. Sure, the new deal takes a bigger chunk out of Mark Cuban's wallet, but that's his problem. If I'm a Mav or a Mavs fan, I like this trade better than the previous one.

That said, the whiff of panic that accompanied the original version of this trade hasn't dissipated. As with Phoenix's acquisition of Shaquille O'Neal, this feels more like a knee-jerk response to the Lakers' acquisition of Pau Gasol than the Mavs actually filling a huge need.

Though the price is less than it was in the original deal, it's still large. Dallas will send Devin Harris, DeSagana Diop, Hassell, Maurice Ager, a signed-and-traded Van Horn, $3 million cash and two first-round picks to New Jersey for Kidd, Antoine Wright, Malik Allen and a second-rounder. (Technically it would be two trades, with Wright for a No. 2 as a side deal in order to meet league roster requirements; also, Dallas has to waive a player, most likely Nick Fazekas, in order to sign Van Horn.)

Obviously, the two protagonists are Kidd and Harris. So let me ask you a provocative question that I brought up when the three-way version of this deal was kicked around: Would you trade Harris for Kidd, straight up?

Based on notoriety alone, most people would offer a quick "yes." But shine that light a little closer. Kidd's PER this season is 16.06, while Harris is way ahead at 18.72. This may shock some people who have seen only the reports of his triple-doubles, but Kidd is scoring at a much lower rate this season, he's shooting a hideous 36.6 percent from the field, and his turnover rate has skyrocketed.

While he's far from the only culprit, his decline is one reason the Nets are 25th in Offensive Efficiency. The Mavs, in contrast, were second with Harris as quarterback, until injured his ankle on Jan. 27; since then, they've dropped to fifth.

Per 40 minutes, Harris averages nearly seven points more than Kidd, which is huge. He also gets to the line more than twice as often and shoots a far better percentage from the field. His true shooting percentage of 59.2 dwarfs Kidd's 48.3. Think about that difference for a second -- for every nine shots they take (including free throws), Harris has a one-point advantage.

Finally, Harris is a major asset at the defensive end; he has the quickness to defend the Parkers, Pauls and Nashes of the West and was second in the league in offensive fouls drawn last season, according to 82games.com. By my methods, he was the best defensive point guard in the league in 2006-07. Unfortunately, the one guy he struggled against was Baron Davis, a fact that may be seared in the Mavs' memories given how last season ended.

Kidd's two big advantages are passing and rebounding, and the differences in those categories are gargantuan, make no mistake. But if you break it down, it seems his numbers in those two categories might decline in Dallas' system.

As far as assists go, the Mavs are one of the league's most isolation-heavy teams and annually have among the league's lowest rates of assisted baskets; the Nets are the opposite and are annually among the highest. It's possible Dallas changes some of that to take advantage of Kidd, of course. Still, I imagine the high-post isos for Dirk Nowitzki and Josh Howard will remain the bread-and-butter of the offense.

Additionally, Kidd's passing skills are most lethal in transition, but the Mavs run infrequently. While some still imagine Dallas as a Wild West Don Nelson outfit, the Mavs have been one of the league's slowest-paced teams since Avery Johnson took over.

On the rebounds, New Jersey's frontcourt rebounding was historically bad for the first two months of this season, as I mentioned in another piece -- leaving a ton of boards available for Kidd to grab. In fact, Kidd's rebound rate has declined quite a bit since Josh Boone took over for Jason Collins; fewer caroms have been left over for the guards. Similarly, he won't have as many boards available for him to snag in Dallas, where the Mavs are already eighth in the league in defensive rebound rate (nearly all of Kidd's boards are defensive).

OK, so he won't score as much as Harris and he might lose a bit on his rate of rebounds and assists. One can still come up with some offsetting positives. For starters, Kidd is a leader in a locker room that appears in need of one. Dallas' testicular fortitude has been questioned in the past two postseasons, so perhaps he can make a difference there. And it's possible he'll be more motivated in Big D than he was in New Jersey; at the very least, I suspect he'll suffer from fewer headaches.

In addition, Kidd is a good defender against bigger guards, which means Dallas might be able to play him and Jason Terry together for 40 minutes in place of the 30 scoreless minutes they were getting each night from the Eddie Jones-Hassell combo.

But before you get too excited, look into the future. Kidd is 10 years older and costs five times as much as Harris. Even after Harris' extension kicks in Kidd will be triple the cost. Which player would you rather have in 2008-09? What about in 2009-10, presuming the Mavs extend Kidd, when he'll be 36 and Harris is 26?

I know, I know -- this move was made primarily with this season in mind. So let's say after all that, you still like Kidd better than Harris. Do you like him so much better that you're willing to include your best defensive big man and two first-round draft choices?

Diop was Dallas' best low-post defender. (Side note: guess that Shaq trade had them real worried, huh?) With Diop's departure, Erick Dampier is the only true center remaining in Dallas, meaning he'll be forced to play more than his current 22.8 minutes per game, unless the Mavs are about to make another trade.

The Mavs are 5-5 since Harris went out. It's not a good 5-5 either. Of the wins, two were against Memphis and one came against Milwaukee; the losses included one-sided setbacks against Detroit, New Jersey and Philadelphia. In fact, the irony of this trade is that a big reason for Dallas' recent struggles is that Harris has been injured.

That takes us to an aspect of this trade nobody is paying any attention to: Harris' huge impact on the Mavs' success over the past two seasons. In 2006-07, when Dallas won 67 games, guess who had the biggest on-court/off-court point differential? Hint: It wasn't the MVP. According to 82games.com, Dallas was a whopping plus-14.2 points per 48 minutes with Harris on the court. Moreover, the Harris-Nowitzki combo was the single most effective player combination in the league.

This season, the Harris-Terry-Howard-Nowitzki-Dampier unit has played 164 minutes together and outscored opponents by 43 points (that's a whopping 12.6 points per 48 minutes). The four most common Harris-Terry arrangements all have massively positive point differentials, adding up to an advantage of plus-20.7 points per 48 minutes(!). So much for the idea that you can't play two small guards together.

In the final analysis, it seems Dallas gave up two first-rounders and its best interior defender for what is, even with the most rose-colored glasses, a marginal short-term upgrade at the point and a certain long-term downgrade.

It's possible that this trade will work, but my issue with this deal is that the risk and reward seem out of line. Much like Phoenix with the Shaq deal, I can't help but wonder if the Mavs are fixated on what Kidd was 18 months ago rather than what he'll be during the next 18 months.

Let me repeat that I'm not nearly not as down on this trade as I am on the Suns' acquisition of O'Neal, and I'm less down on this version than the past one. But even with Hassell and Van Horn in the deal instead of George and Stackhouse, I think it puts Dallas further from a title the next few seasons, rather than closer.

[1Parker1]

I know it was only the All Star game, but after watching Dirk get bullied around in the 4th quarter of that, I am convinced that there's no way the Mavs can be considered contenders with their current roster. They're in the same boat as the Suns. They weren't going anywhere with their current roster make-up. Shaking things up, arguably for a player who is at the end of the career may or may not work. But at least it gives them a chance. They each also got a player in return who helps them in the area they are most lacking. So it's not like they traded for just any player.

[1Parker1]

Oh and I'm getting tired of Hollinger using these bogus stats to help make his point. How about pointing out what Harris's stats are in close 4th quarter games? How about how his execution and playmaking are in the playoffs? Who would any team pick to have the ball in their hands down 2 points with 24 sec left in a playoff situation? Would you rather rely on Devin Harris to make the right play, or Jason Kidd? How about making those points Hollinger?! :pctoss

[MoSpur]

I hate the whole Hollinger thing.

[Holt's Cat]

http://www.cothibridgehotel.co.uk/images/cork_pop_250.jpg

[Hemotivo]

Dallas' testicular fortitude has been questioned in the past two postseasons

[NASpurs]

I thought you needed to have testicles in order for your testicular fortitude to be questioned.

[SenorSpur]

I thought you needed to have testicles in order for your testicular fortitude to be questioned.

Ouch!

:lol

[roycrikside]

They need to double Tim every time now and have nobody who can guard Parker. Yeah, great trade Mavs. People who bash Hollinger are like people who bash Gore or Kerry for being "boring" and went with the more plain-spoken folksy guy. There's like a bias against nerds in this country.

I thought Hollinger made an effective argument for both sides of the trade. Pure basketball-wise, I just don't see how it makes them better. Chauncey Billups said the same thing. They'll definitely be a worse defensive team, and it's hard to see them improving offensively with Kidd's horrible shooting and the Mavs' Iso-based offense limiting the effectiveness of Kidd's passing.

Whatever benefits the trade can produce would have to be intangible/leadership based because basketball-wise, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense, especially when you give up Diop and the two first rounders.

[Holt's Cat]

They need to double Tim every time now and have nobody who can guard Parker. Yeah, great trade Mavs. People who bash Hollinger are like people who bash Gore or Kerry for being "boring" and went with the more plain-spoken folksy guy. There's like a bias against nerds in this country.

I thought Hollinger made an effective argument for both sides of the trade. Pure basketball-wise, I just don't see how it makes them better. Chauncey Billups said the same thing. They'll definitely be a worse defensive team, and it's hard to see them improving offensively with Kidd's horrible shooting and the Mavs' Iso-based offense limiting the effectiveness of Kidd's passing.

Whatever benefits the trade can produce would have to be intangible/leadership based because basketball-wise, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense, especially when you give up Diop and the two first rounders.

The only way you can make sense of this trade is that the current crew was broken after the '06 Finals and then the 1st round choke.

[Ghost Writer]

Gee, I thought they just got an All-Star PG for a decent young one and a bunch of sh1t.

The Mavs don't make moves to beat the Spurs.

They make moves to try to get better on their own.

[Findog]

I know it was only the All Star game

You can stop right there if you want to be taken seriously.

[CaptainLate]

Oh and I'm getting tired of Hollinger using these bogus stats to help make his point. How about pointing out what Harris's stats are in close 4th quarter games? How about how his execution and playmaking are in the playoffs? Who would any team pick to have the ball in their hands down 2 points with 24 sec left in a playoff situation? Would you rather rely on Devin Harris to make the right play, or Jason Kidd? How about making those points Hollinger?! :pctoss

The point is, with this trade the Mavs won't be in position to win close games anymore. The game will already be lost by that time (see their recent 5-5 record) :elephant

[Holt's Cat]

Gee, I thought they just got an All-Star PG for a decent young one and a bunch of sh1t.

The Mavs don't make moves to beat the Spurs.

They make moves to try to get better on their own.

And make it easier for the Spurs to beat them. This is precisely why you don't make panic moves, especially when your team just won the title last year and your big 3 aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

[Ghost Writer]

And make it easier for the Spurs to beat them. This is precisely why you don't make panic moves, especially when your team just won the title last year and your big 3 aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
The Mavs lost to an 8 seed in the first round last year.

They've been lacking a true point since losing Steve Nash.

The Mavs make moves to improve, not match up better with the Spurs.

Wake up.

[Holt's Cat]

How many rings do the Mavs have?

Perhaps it is in part due to making moves like this?

[Shank]

They may have been damned with Harris and now they may be damned with Kidd. But the intrigue lies in rolling the ball out with the best possible lineup and seeing it where it gets you. One of three markets (PHX, LA and DAL) are going to play the "dammit - I knew we shouldn't have made a move" card when their team bows out of the playoffs. I'd rather Dallas takes their shot with Kidd running things than bowing out in the early rounds of the playoffs once again this year.

[wildbill2u]

If the trade doesn't work out to mean a championship THIS year, then the trade is going to look worse every year thereafter.

Failure to ever conquer a Championship and Desperation makes you do a lot of strange things.

The Spurs have won enough championships where they can be conservative, know they have potential help for the Big Three coming next year, and redo the roster when the cap clearing contracts of Barry, Horry, etc. expire.

[1Parker1]

Gee, I thought they just got an All-Star PG for a decent young one and a bunch of sh1t.

The Mavs don't make moves to beat the Spurs.

They make moves to try to get better on their own.


:lol :tu Never thought I'd agree with you. Spurs fans think just because the Mavs now don't match up as well with the Spurs, it's the end of the road for them. They match up a lot better against other teams now I think. Especially in big game moments. It's not guaranteed the road to the Finals will go through SA.

[1Parker1]

You can stop right there if you want to be taken seriously.

Well then, let's talk about Dirk in the Mavs last 10 games where they're 5-5. Can I be taken seriously then? :rolleyes

Mav fan has perpetual PMS when it comes to their team. So overly sensitive!

[Ghost Writer]

How many rings do the Mavs have?

Perhaps it is in part due to making moves like this?
How many Duncan and Robinsons were they lucky enough to draft with #1 lottery picks?

They got good the old fashioned way... making it happen.

[Shank]

Well then, let's talk about Dirk in the Mavs last 10 games where they're 5-5. Can I be taken seriously then? :rolleyes

Mav fan has perpetual PMS when it comes to their team. So overly sensitive!

You mean the last 10 games before the All-Star break in the middle of the regular fucking season?

Some may be overly sensitive, but we don't freak out over .500 streaks in February. Let's not overreact.

[Findog]

Well then, let's talk about Dirk in the Mavs last 10 games where they're 5-5. Can I be taken seriously then? :rolleyes

Yeah, let's talk about Dirk's last ten games:

25, 10 and 5 with the awesomeness that is JJ Barea running the offense, along with no Stack, no Devin, no Josh Howard and Erick Dampier for the last 3. Yeah, it's on him that we're sucking.

:rolleyes


Mav fan has perpetual PMS when it comes to their team. So overly sensitive!

Hey, I'm not the one making player evaluations based off of the All-Star Game.

[Findog]

You mean the last 10 games before the All-Star break in the middle of the regular fucking season?

Some may be overly sensitive, but we don't freak out over .500 streaks in February. Let's not overreact.

Dirk has put up 25, 10 and 5 over the last ten. Clearly, he needs to step it up.

[Findog]

How many rings do the Mavs have?

Perhaps it is in part due to making moves like this?

It must be nice to fall into David Robinson and Tim Duncan. How does one get the top pick in the lottery when a once in a generation player comes along? Is that luck, or is there some sort of method to follow?

[Spurminator]

The Mavs' success in the latter part of this decade is primarily a result of players they have drafted.

(I'm counting Dirk as a draft pick)

[coopdogg3]

How many Duncan and Robinsons were they lucky enough to draft with #1 lottery picks?

They got good the old fashioned way... making it happen.


Old fashioned way? Hiring an ex-spur for a coach, and then having the 2nd highest pay-roll = old fashioned way?

[Ghost Writer]

The Mavs' success in the better part of this decade is primarily a result of players they have drafted.

(I'm counting Dirk as a draft pick)
Well, you shouldn't, because that was a trade and you are on crack.

The Mavs biggest contributors over the past 10 years have all came via trade or free agency... Finley, Terry, Nash, Dirk, Stackhouse, Dampier, LaFrentz, etc.

The only draft pick that made a real impact was Howard.

Harris has had a nice half a year.

Try again.

[Spurminator]

Well, you shouldn't, because that was a trade and you are on crack.

The Mavs biggest contributors over the past 10 years have all came via trade or free agency... Finley, Terry, Nash, Dirk, Stackhouse, Dampier, LaFrentz, etc.

The only draft pick that made a real impact was Howard.

Harris has had a nice half a year.

Try again.

Jason Terry, Jerry Stackhouse, Erick Dampier and Raef LaFrentz are peripheral players that are/were no more important to the Mavs than Bruce Bowen, Michael Finley, Brent Barry and Rasho/Nazr... players that were traded for or signed by the Spurs.

Finley and Nash did nothing for the Mavs before Dirk came into his own as the team's best player. And don't play dumb... Dirk was, for all intents and purposes, drafted by the Mavs just as Barbosa was basically drafted by the Suns.

The Mavs would have gone nowhere without their draft picks. Just like the Spurs.

[Findog]

Finley and Nash did nothing for the Mavs before Dirk came into his own as the team's best player.

Nash was hurt and ineffective his first two years in Dallas, but you couldn't be more wrong about Michael Finley. Just because we didn't win doesn't mean he didn't produce for us. People forget just how good he was in his prime, definitely among the top swingmen in the League.

[Spurminator]

Finley put up some good numbers but he was a third option playing top dog.

Since we're talking about how trades have translated into victories, I stand by what I said. The trades for Nash and Finley would not have meant much if they hadn't gotten an MVP-calibur player via the Draft.

[Ghost Writer]

Jason Terry, Jerry Stackhouse, Erick Dampier and Raef LaFrentz are peripheral players that are/were no more important to the Mavs than Bruce Bowen, Michael Finley, Brent Barry and Rasho/Nazr... players that were traded for or signed by the Spurs.

Finley and Nash did nothing for the Mavs before Dirk came into his own as the team's best player. And don't play dumb... Dirk was, for all intents and purposes, drafted by the Mavs just as Barbosa was basically drafted by the Suns.

The Mavs would have gone nowhere without their draft picks. Just like the Spurs.
Wrong.

Dirk was a trade.

Nash and Finley were their 2nd and 3rd best during their rise to prominence. Both were replaced via trades and free agency.

Who besides Josh Howard had a real impact for them via the draft?

[monosylab1k]

Finley put up some good numbers but he was a third option playing top dog.
Finley in his prime was great. It's not his fault he was stuck playing with Eric Strickland and Gary Trent.

[Obstructed_View]

Nash was hurt and ineffective his first two years in Dallas, but you couldn't be more wrong about Michael Finley. Just because we didn't win doesn't mean he didn't produce for us. People forget just how good he was in his prime, definitely among the top swingmen in the League.
+1 Finley was a fucking stud when Jim Cleamons was still the coach.

[monosylab1k]

Dirk was a trade.
Technically, but he was only a trade because Milwaukee wanted Dallas to draft Robert Traylor for them. If not for a deal helping out the Bucks, Dallas would have taken Dirk with that pick.

[Obstructed_View]

Wrong.

Dirk was a trade.

No, the rules prohibit teams from trading draft picks. Dirk was their pick, and they picked Robert Traylor for Milwaukee and got Pat Garrity for their trouble (which they traded for Nash IIRC). If you don't think Dirk was a Donn Nelson scouting find then you are as stupid as your trade suggestions.

[Findog]

+1 Finley was a fucking stud when Jim Cleamons was still the coach.

He definitely helped salvage the original Kidd trade, and he was always a much better dude, character-wise, than Kidd.

[Obstructed_View]

He definitely helped salvage the original Kidd trade, and he was always a much better dude, character-wise, than Kidd.
Yep, he's the reason I was excited about the Kidd trade because of the way he played D on Jordan when he was a rookie. Fin was a hell of a defender once upon a time.

[Findog]

Who besides Josh Howard had a real impact for them via the draft?

Najera was a decent rotation guy for a while. Every team needs a jack of all trades do the dirty work type. I think he could've been better but he's always had durability issues.

[Findog]

Yep, he's the reason I was excited about the Kidd trade because of the way he played D on Jordan when he was a rookie. Fin was a hell of a defender once upon a time.

I HATED the trade initially, I didn't realize how much of an attitude problem Kidd had and how immature he was. All I knew was that Kidd was a HOF talent and you don't trade those guys away lightly. The stories about what a douchebag he was didn't seem to trickle out until later. Roy Tarpley and Quinn Buckner tested my faith as a fan, but that trade was really tough at first. Good thing Fin played his part in turning things around.

[Ghost Writer]

No, the rules prohibit teams from trading draft picks. Dirk was their pick, and they picked Robert Traylor for Milwaukee and got Pat Garrity for their trouble (which they traded for Nash IIRC). If you don't think Dirk was a Donn Nelson scouting find then you are as stupid as your trade suggestions.
No.

Dirk was not their pick.

Nowitzki was drafted ninth overall by the Milwaukee Bucks in the 1998 NBA Draft and was immediately traded to the Mavericks, where he has been playing ever since.

And Josh Howard is the only bonafide draft pick to really contribute to the Mavs success.

[Findog]

And Josh Howard is the only bonafide draft pick to really contribute to the Mavs success.

For a second round pick, we got quite the impact from Najera. He was in our rotation for three years and got valuable minutes even in the playoffs. Not a superstar or anything, but just saying...

[Spurminator]

Wrong.

Dirk was a trade.

Nash and Finley were their 2nd and 3rd best during their rise to prominence. Both were replaced via trades and free agency.

Who besides Josh Howard had a real impact for them via the draft?


Dirk was drafted by the Bucks for the Mavs in a prearranged deal. Without that deal it's very likely the Mavs would have drafted Dirk at number 6.

Don't play dumb.

Nash and Finley were a supporting cast for Dirk in their rise to prominence. The Spurs have had plenty of supporting players who were acquired via trade or free agency. Like the Mavs' moves, they wouldn't have meant anything without a HOF draft pick.

Devin Harris and Marquis Daniels were key players to the Mavs 2006 Finals run. Combined with Dirk and Howard, that means four to the Mavs top six players that year were acquired via the Draft.

[Ghost Writer]

Get a grip.

A trade is a trade.

Don't twist the truth to fit your non-argument.

And to suggest Harris and Daniels have had as much an impact on the Mavs' success as Nash and Finely is just plain wrong.

Give it up.

Outside of Josh Howard, the Mavs build through trades and free agency.

Not two lottery balls, veteran contracts and waivers.

[Spurminator]

And to suggest Harris and Daniels have had as much an impact on the Mavs' success as Nash and Finely is just plain wrong.

How many minutes did Nash and Finley play for the 2006 Western Conference Champion Mavs?



Get a grip.

A trade is a trade.

Don't twist the truth to fit your non-argument.

How does the Dirk "trade" in any way resemble the trades you have been advocating on this board for the last two weeks?

[Ghost Writer]

How about in the first round last year?

Nash and Finely were All-Stars for the Mavs and helped them get to the playoffs all those years.

You aren't serious, are you?

Marquis Daniels?

Devin Harris?

Over Nash and Finley?

How about Terry and Stackhouse?

You are funny.

[Spurminator]

How about in the first round last year?

Nash and Finely were All-Stars for the Mavs and helped them get to the playoffs all those years.

You aren't serious, are you?

Marquis Daniels?

Devin Harris?

Over Nash and Finley?

How about Terry and Stackhouse?

You are funny.

The Nash/Finley Mavericks lost in the first round too. They also missed the Playoffs. What's your point? What was the most successful Mavs team of all time? Were Nash and Finley on that team?

Nnnnnnope. The best Mavs team was built primarily through the Draft. It was four Mavs draft picks plus Terry and Stackhouse. And I'll match your Terry and Stackhouse with the Spurs' Finley and Bowen.

[Spurminator]

Really, if Ghost is going to stick to his definition of a draft day acquisition being a trade, then Devin Harris wouldn't count anyway because he was "technically" drafted by the Wizards.

And to be honest, that was more of a trade than the Dirk deal because it was actually part of a package involving current NBA players.

[Ghost Writer]

Nah, man.

You can't discount the team's rise to prominence for the one year they slip past a crippled Spurs team in a Game 7 OT.

Fvcking Harris and Daniels didn't even start for that team!

And Dirk was not drafted by the Mavericks!

Terry and Stackhouse were trades. No one wanted Bowen and Finley was waived by guess who?

Spurm, do you really think the Mavs owe their success to the fvcking draft?

Unbelievable.

[Spurminator]

Spurm, do you really think the Mavs owe their success to the fvcking draft?

Unbelievable.

Yes, and so do you.

http://www.nba.com/media/act_dirk_nowitzki.jpg

Without the Dirk pick, would the Mavs have ever been among the NBA elite?

[T Park]

That was a complete prearranged pick.

My god how hard is it for him to fucking understand that.

[Ghost Writer]

That was a trade you stubborn fvcks.

[Spurminator]

That was a trade you stubborn fvcks.

:lol He wasn't even scouted by the Bucks.

[Ghost Writer]

Who drafted him?

The fvcking point is that the Mavs make moves to build their team and don't rely on the luck of the draft.

Read that sixteen times so it sinks in.

[Spurminator]

The fvcking point is that the Mavs make moves to build their team and don't rely on the luck of the draft.

Except they did. The Mavs wouldn't have been shit without the Draft.

[Ghost Writer]

Shut the fvck up already:

Days prior to the draft, the Washington Wizards and Dallas Mavericks consummated a deal that involved the Wizards' 5th overall pick going to the Mavs along with Jerry Stackhouse and Christian Laettner in exchange for Antawn Jamison. NBA rules prevented teams from trading draft picks for two consecutive years (in addition to trade kicker details in Laettner's contract[3]) so the deal was momentarily delayed until the actual draft in which Washington selected Devin Harris and subsequently traded him to the Mavericks to complete the deal. The Mavs' plan was to bring Harris along slowly under the tutelage of all-star point guard Steve Nash but Nash ended up leaving the team through free agency and signing with the Phoenix Suns.[4]

[Spurminator]

Too late, I already made that addendum.

We're talking about Dirk. Without Dirk, all of those Mavs moves would have kept them treading water in the 7th or 8th position in the West, at BEST.

You cannot deny this.

[Ghost Writer]

So to conclude after wasting our time, the Mavs only contributor that they drafted is Josh Howard.

Every other fvcking piece came via a trade or free agent signing of some sort.

The Mavs make moves.

The Spurs get #1 lottery picks.

[Ghost Writer]

Too late?

Dude, you're busted!

The argument was whether the Mavs build their team via trades and free agency... "make their own luck."

You're done.

[Ghost Writer]

Dirk came via a trade you fvcking retard.

Just like your boy Harris.

Everyone else via trade or free agent signing.




You have no argument.

[Spurminator]

Too late?

Dude, you're busted!

The argument was whether the Mavs build their team via trades and free agency... "make their own luck."

You're done.


:lol

I already mentioned the Harris trade. You read slow. Scroll back.

Dirk is the centerpiece. He was a Mavs draft pick. The only reason a trade was even involved is because the Mavs were able to get more by letting the Bucks pick him.

You know this.

Anyway... What draft day deal would you like to see the Spurs make before the Feb 21 trade deadline?

[Ghost Writer]

No.

Let's recap... Dirk and Harris aren't on the Mavs unless they trade for them.

I acknowledged Josh Howard.

Everyone else came from free agency or trades.

Marquis Daniels?

Please.

[Ghost Writer]

Daniels was an undrafted guard who emerged as one of the year's prized steals in the 2003 rookie crop.


Whoops.


Wow.

Josh Howard is the only contributer that the Mavs drafted.

We could've saved a lot of time here, Spurm.




Who's got some smelling salts?

[Spurminator]

So is Harris a key contributor or not? Now that you've discovered Harris pick was acquired in a trade he's worth mentioning?

Dirk would have been a Mav without the trade. Nelson and Rick Pitino both scouted Dirk. Do you really think Tractor Traylor was the Mavs' top choice???

el.

oh.

el.


You still have a lot of catching up to do from your time off. Looks like you found a reliable source of information in your research on the Harris draft. I suggest you do a search for Nowitzki, Dirk, and read up on him as well.

[Ghost Writer]

Spurm, not the point.

Was Dirk drafted by the Mavs.

Yes or no?

Who else was drafted by the Mavs that's been a key contributor besides Howard?

[clubalien]

Didn't dallas draft Kidd?

[Spurminator]

Daniels was an undrafted guard who emerged as one of the year's prized steals in the 2003 rookie crop.


Whoops.


Wow.

Josh Howard is the only contributer that the Mavs drafted.

We could've saved a lot of time here, Spurm.




Who's got some smelling salts?


Meh... semantics.


Projected as a second-round pick, Daniels waited for his name to be called. The Mavericks' head coach Don Nelson initially planned on using their 2nd rounder to select Daniels (whom they accidentally discovered while watching game tapes of Josh Howard) but his son Donnie Nelson convinced him to trade the pick to Denver instead and assured his father that they would get him one way or the other.

[Spurminator]

Spurm, not the point.

Was Dirk drafted by the Mavs.

Yes or no?



Basically, yes.

Speaking of point, have you forgotten the point you were trying to make?

The Spurs would never have been as successful as they are without the Draft.

The Mavs would not have gotten Dirk Nowitzki without the Draft.

Both teams could have made all the moves they wanted but neither would have had near the success they've had if they hadn't gotten a top draft pick.

[batboy]

People who bash Hollinger are like people who bash Gore or Kerry for being "boring" and went with the more plain-spoken folksy guy. There's like a bias against nerds in this country.


This article aside, people bash Hollinger because he watches _fanstasy_ basketball and favors stat-padders over proven clutch performers, and random combinations of the former over experienced crews of the latter.

Yes, he's a tool. And he's not a fucking published mathematician or any smarter than any other sportswriter. But then if you consider Al Gore a nerd just because Bush is an ignorant redneck then your standards are already pretty low.

[Ghost Writer]

Basically, yes.

Speaking of point, have you forgotten the point you were trying to make?

The Spurs would never have been as successful as they are without the Draft.

The Mavs would not have gotten Dirk Nowitzki without the Draft.

Both teams could have made all the moves they wanted but neither would have had near the success they've had if they hadn't gotten a top draft pick.
Basically, he was traded on draft day.

And the Mavs are built almost exclusively on trades like this and free agent signings.

It's okay to be wrong.

Not every team depends on ping-pong balls.

[Spurminator]

Not every team depends on ping-pong balls.

Do the Mavs get Dirk Nowitzki without having a high Draft pick?

I'll give you some time to go read.

[Spurminator]

While you're researching, you might also find it interesting how the Mavs used that high Lottery pick to get Steve Nash.

[Spurminator]

For a second round pick, we got quite the impact from Najera. He was in our rotation for three years and got valuable minutes even in the playoffs. Not a superstar or anything, but just saying...


:madrun :madrun He was drafted by the Rockets!! :madrun :madrun

[Findog]

:madrun :madrun He was drafted by the Rockets!! :madrun :madrun


Oh yeah, that's right. Either way, it's a small distinction, when you're talking about trading for a guy's rights soon after the draft.

[Holt's Cat]

Dumbass Ghost gets it wrong again.

[GrandeDavid]

We can talk all we want and read the beat writers' beat offs. But only time will reveal the value of this trade. It could turn out that Kidd gets rejuvinated in Dallas, they start running more, chemistry gets strong and they get hot in the playoffs and make a run at the championship. Or they could flop. Who really knows...but I think that the fact that Dallas did not have to give up Stack to make this deal happen makes it easier to appreciate.

The playoffs this year will be legendary in depth. Its looking pretty wide open right now.

[clubalien]

in 1 season dallas just traded for the player spurs spent 5 years setting up to go after

dallas gets kidd
spurs get rasho

[The Franchise]

The Mavs we're a better team before this trade. I'm a Rockets fan who hates the Mavs,but i feel better about facing them with Kidd than with Harris.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

3 pages of a dumb argument later, and where are we?

Oh yes, the Mav's have developed all of their most important talent, just like the spurs did.... and they didnt have the luxury of two first overall picks.

Ok great, now, does anyone else still think that this trade has fundamentally fucked the Mavericks for years to come? And i hope the spurs go after Diop, if not now than in FA. But, i honestly dont see how this helps the Mavericks, this team doesn't need a 35 year old point guard that can't score-- Jason Kidd is a good player as the focal point of the offense, when he gets to make his team a transition threat, but even in the height of his abilities, the spurs were able to keep JKidd off his game on the fast break, the Nets were forced to play a slow down half court game in 2003.

2008 Jason Kidd is slower, a worse shooter, less healthy, less durable, and less defensively capable. In 2003, there were games when Tony Parker seriously outplayed JKidd.... in 2007, Tony is getting close to his prime, he will easily get around Kidd in ways that Harris has made impossible in the past, and now when our slasher's go the rim they don't have Dallas's top shot blocker and post defender to deal with.

Eric Dampier will foul out within 10 minutes if he's guarding Duncan in the post, meaning Dallas is going to have to go small. I just don't think Dallas has the ability to win that game without a post up threat to counter Duncan-- we can play great inside out ball all day long, and Tony and Manu can wreak havoc in the paint.

How does Kidd make them better against Phoenix, LA? No idea.

[Findog]

You can pretty much sum up the arguments this way:

Trade makes Dallas better:


Kidd has been dogging it in New Jersey and even so, still almost averages a triple-double. He will pick up his play even more in Dallas.
In the playoffs you need to be able to execute in the half-court. For all of Devin's strengths, he is not the quarterback that Kidd is, and Dirk, Josh and Terry will all get better looks and will not have to create as much for themselves anymore. The Mavs have struggled with an over reliance on ISO play.
I personally have always felt the mentally soft chokers thing was overblown and exaggerated, but I'll concede there's a sliver of truth to it. Whatever weaknesses that Dallas has had when it comes to mettle , heart and edge, Kidd addresses those things. For those of you saying Dallas lacked an "alpha dog," they have one now.
DeSagana Diop is a backup center averaging 3 points, 5 rebound and 1 block in 17 minutes per game. This hurts Dallas' depth, but between Juwan Howard and the incoming Malik Allen, they can't possibly replace that? Who is to say they're done tweaking their roster?
Harris' rep as a outstanding perimeter defender is a bit undeserved. He didn't exactly shut down Baron Davis in the playoffs last year, he didn't shut down Dwyane Wade in the Finals, and his presence hasn't stopped Steve Nash from doing whatever he wants against the Mavericks. Yes, the Mavs are going to have some mismatches not in their favor, but who guards Dirk if they play the Suns? Amare? Grant Hill? Who guards Dirk if they play the Lakers? Odom? Gasol?
A lot is being made about how "washed up" and old Kidd is, and there's no question that his acquisition shortens their title window, but the Mavs don't have four titles. Kidd was arguably the best player last summer for Team USA, and Harris is a promising young talent, but you can't put him in the same class as Paul, Deron, Baron, Nash, etc. I think most Mavs fans and even the front office feels like the bargain Miami made to win a title RIGHT FUCKING NOW and pay the mortgage later ended up being worth it. Dirk is about to turn 30, Josh is about to be 28. The Spurs aren't going anywhere anytime soon, neither are the Lakers, and you have teams like Portland and Utah on the rise. It would be nice to have a perennial title contender, but they'll settle for just one.


Trade makes Dallas worse:




With Gasol to the Lakers, Shaq to the Suns to join Amare, and with Duncan still in San Antonio, losing Diop leaves a big hole in the middle that they have yet to address. They solved one problem and potentially created a bigger one.
Harris and Diop together are vital pieces when it comes to matching up with San Antonio, who is likely to be the biggest obstacle for any team seeking to make it out of the West. Dallas is the only team besides Shaq/Kobe and Malone/Stockton to send Tim Duncan home, and some of those X's and O's advantages have been mitigated.
Kidd's acquisition makes it tougher for Dallas to land another interior big that they'll need in the postseason
Harris is probably better suited to defend the quicker guards Dallas likely will see in the playoffs like Paul, Nash, Iverson, Parker, D. Williams, etc.
This moves reeks of desperation in response to the Suns and Lakers acquistions without enough thought to the long-term management of their roster


I was against it, but given the almost certain chemistry problems that would ensue if they were to call it off, they HAVE to go through with it now. The front office and Cuban have repeatedly said they were happy with the team and wanted to give it another shot, and that Harris was their PG. They've just publicly contradicted that stance, and Dirk, Terry and Stackhouse have all reacted with glee to the news of Kidd's acquisition and in a way thrown Devin under the bus.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

You can pretty much sum up the arguments this way:

Trade makes Dallas better:


Kidd has been dogging it in New Jersey and even so, still almost averages a triple-double. He will pick up his play even more in Dallas.
In the playoffs you need to be able to execute in the half-court. For all of Devin's strengths, he is not the quarterback that Kidd is, and Dirk, Josh and Terry will all get better looks and will not have to create as much for themselves anymore. The Mavs have struggled with an over reliance on ISO play.
I personally have always felt the mentally soft chokers thing was overblown and exaggerated, but I'll concede there's a sliver of truth to it. Whatever weaknesses that Dallas has had when it comes to mettle , heart and edge, Kidd addresses those things. For those of you saying Dallas lacked an "alpha dog," they have one now.
DeSagana Diop is a backup center averaging 3 points, 5 rebound and 1 block in 17 minutes per game. This hurts Dallas' depth, but between Juwan Howard and the incoming Malik Allen, they can't possibly replace that? Who is to say they're done tweaking their roster?
Harris' rep as a outstanding perimeter defender is a bit undeserved. He didn't exactly shut down Baron Davis in the playoffs last year, he didn't shut down Dwyane Wade in the Finals, and his presence hasn't stopped Steve Nash from doing whatever he wants against the Mavericks. Yes, the Mavs are going to have some mismatches not in their favor, but who guards Dirk if they play the Suns? Amare? Grant Hill? Who guards Dirk if they play the Lakers? Odom? Gasol?
A lot is being made about how "washed up" and old Kidd is, and there's no question that his acquisition shortens their title window, but the Mavs don't have four titles. Kidd was arguably the best player last summer for Team USA, and Harris is a promising young talent, but you can't put him in the same class as Paul, Deron, Baron, Nash, etc. I think most Mavs fans and even the front office feels like the bargain Miami made to win a title RIGHT FUCKING NOW and pay the mortgage later ended up being worth it. Dirk is about to turn 30, Josh is about to be 28. The Spurs aren't going anywhere anytime soon, neither are the Lakers, and you have teams like Portland and Utah on the rise. It would be nice to have a perennial title contender, but they'll settle for just one.


Trade makes Dallas worse:




With Gasol to the Lakers, Shaq to the Suns to join Amare, and with Duncan still in San Antonio, losing Diop leaves a big hole in the middle that they have yet to address. They solved one problem and potentially created a bigger one.
Harris and Diop together are vital pieces when it comes to matching up with San Antonio, who is likely to be the biggest obstacle for any team seeking to make it out of the West. Dallas is the only team besides Shaq/Kobe and Malone/Stockton to send Tim Duncan home, and some of those X's and O's advantages have been mitigated.
Kidd's acquisition makes it tougher for Dallas to land another interior big that they'll need in the postseason
Harris is probably better suited to defend the quicker guards Dallas likely will see in the playoffs like Paul, Nash, Iverson, Parker, D. Williams, etc.
This moves reeks of desperation in response to the Suns and Lakers acquistions without enough thought to the long-term management of their roster


I was against it, but given the almost certain chemistry problems that would ensue if they were to call it off, they HAVE to go through with it now. The front office and Cuban have repeatedly said they were happy with the team and wanted to give it another shot, and that Harris was their PG. They've just publicly contradicted that stance, and Dirk, Terry and Stackhouse have all reacted with glee to the news of Kidd's acquisition and in a way thrown Devin under the bus.



Did my old buddy Admiral reincarnate as a Mavs fan?










Question.

:cooldevil

[Findog]

Did my old buddy Admiral reincarnate as a Mavs fan?










Question.

:cooldevil

Who is the Admiral? I assume you're referring to a poster here and not DRob.

[TDMVPDPOY]

jason kidd is overrated

his triple doubles, mean nothing if they are loss games

and for his defense? wtf has he ever shut down?

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Who is the Admiral? I assume you're referring to a poster here and not DRob.

Admiral was a very good poster here a few years back who put a lot of thought into his posts much like you do.

[Findog]

Admiral was a very good poster here a few years back who put a lot of thought into his posts much like you do.

Thanks for the compliments.
:toast

[duncan228]

Admiral was a very good poster here a few years back who put a lot of thought into his posts much like you do.

Findog can articulate with the best of them.
He's by far my favorite Mavs fan on the board.

(No offense meant to other Mavs fans. :))

[RobinsontoDuncan]

I used to value Ghost Writer's opinion, but he seems like a less funny Sequ in this thread

[Findog]

Findog can articulate with the best of them.
He's by far my favorite Mavs fan on the board.

(No offense meant to other Mavs fans. :))

thanks. you and ed are among my fave spurs posters as well.

[The Truth #6]

Hollinger makes solid arguments. In this article he used facts, like always, but he also pointed to potential intangibles in coming to his conclusion.

The great irony is that with Dallas' trade and Phoenix's trade, their window just got a lot smaller. Though the Spurs are still old, I think their window is now larger than either Dallas or Phoenix. This year will be tough for everyone in the West, but the Spurs chances for the next few years just got better with Phoenix and Dallas going all in.

If the Spurs can add another piece in a trade this year and not lose Ian and Splitter we'll be doing pretty well looking ahead to next year.

[Findog]

One other point I'd like to add: Harris has been injury-prone and fragile so far during his career, while Kidd has been pretty durable. And there's no question that this team offensively was lost the past two weeks without Harris. I don't think they wanted to hang their title hopes on his continued availability every spring.

The other thing in favor of making this trade despite having to give up a useful big like Diop is this: Despite being one of the elite teams in the League the past several years, the annual 60+ wins and so forth, the last two playoff exits were pretty bitter pills to swallow. And the mentally soft chokers talk was always exaggerated, because these guys swallowed that disappointment last year and curbstomped the League for 6 months. Of course that accomplished was rendered hollow in Oakland, but they didn't sit around and feel sorry for themselves last year, they went to work. And then the Warrior series happened and they had to go throw the exact same process all over again.

Winning teams tend to be happy teams, but having to hear those same questions from reporters all the time, day after day, getting belittled, disrespected and dismissed, there was an atmosphere of joyless negativity that surrounded the team. And I think bringing in Kidd helps fix that too: it will generate some excitement, not just for the fans but for the other players as well, and it'll help make basketball fun again. Our chemistry wasn't all that great before this trade proposal flared up, and it would've been in the toilet if it hadn't been consummated. Kidd is going to help the rest of our guys get jazzed up again about balling instead of dredging through the regular season knowing you won't be judged definitively until the playoffs.

[Findog]

Hollinger makes solid arguments. In this article he used facts, like always, but he also pointed to potential intangibles in coming to his conclusion.

The great irony is that with Dallas' trade and Phoenix's trade, their window just got a lot smaller. Though the Spurs are still old, I think their window is now larger than either Dallas or Phoenix. This year will be tough for everyone in the West, but the Spurs chances for the next few years just got better with Phoenix and Dallas going all in.



Well, Dallas and Phoenix both feel a desperation for that first championship that a franchise like San Antonio doesn't. The Spurs have gotten it done with this roster and have a very good chance to do it again. I wouldn't use the word complacency, because I know they want to put that can't repeat shit to bed, but comparing the Spurs to the Suns and Mavs is pretty much apples to oranges. I can't speak for the ownership or the front office personnel, but as a fan, I'm not greedy. I can accept that the Mavs will never be a dynasty like the Spurs, Lakers, Bulls or Celtics. And I've reached a point in my life where I don't live and die with my sports teams like I used to. That being said, I can't tell you how f'n sweet it would be to finally see the Mavs finish the climb from the dregs of the league to winning it all, and I'm sure the Suns franchise and their fans feel that desperation too. It's hard for me to laugh at how bad the Heat are right now, because I would be willing to make that bargain if it was us that had won that Finals. It's been a long time since the Spurs fans have had to feel that, so I wonder how many of you guys remember what it's like.

[Ghost Writer]

Dumbass Ghost gets it wrong again.
I don't think so, twit.

I said Josh Howard is the only good player that contributed to Dallas' success that the Mavs actually drafted.

I also said that while the Spurs got good via #1 picks in the lottery, the Mavs actually built their team through trades and free agent signings.

I have proven this if you read, retard.

[gmartin02]

The bottom line is this: If the Spurs and/or Lakers are healthy for the playoffs, one of them (probably the Spurs - it will probably take the Lakers one more year to solidify the team chemistry, even though they have D Fish & Kobe that share 3 championship rings) will make it to the finals, not Dallas (or Phoenix).

Only one team has won the championship in recent memory without an established core that has played together at least a couple of years (Miami), and that was only due to the choking ("deer in the headlights") Mavs. No team in recent memory has won the championship without solid defense (which is one of the reasons why the Mavs probably choked) and Dallas still doesn't have that.

Dallas will not win this year and will decline as Kidd gets older, so indeed this was a trade made in desperation. (Also, Phoenix will also not win this year - Shaq is not the same as 3 years ago, and doesn't have a Zo in Phoenix to play in the 4th quarter to prevent "hack a Shaq", and Phoenix will decline even more quickly than Dallas with the "big $20 million out of shape" at center.)

[Holt's Cat]

Dallas' defense (which wasn't that bad, save for against the Warriors) took a hit with this deal.

[CaptainLate]

Josh Howard is the only contributer that the Mavs drafted.

And the Spurs could have had him. Which FO personnel screwed that pick up? :ihit