Question for Mav fans and the Kidd trade

[Amuseddaysleeper]

How do you guys feel about this, assuming it all goes through?

[Findog]

I'll just copy and paste what I wrote in that other thread:

You can pretty much sum up the arguments this way:

Trade makes Dallas better:


Kidd has been dogging it in New Jersey and even so, still almost averages a triple-double. He will pick up his play even more in Dallas.
In the playoffs you need to be able to execute in the half-court. For all of Devin's strengths, he is not the quarterback that Kidd is, and Dirk, Josh and Terry will all get better looks and will not have to create as much for themselves anymore. The Mavs have struggled with an over reliance on ISO play.
I personally have always felt the mentally soft chokers thing was overblown and exaggerated, but I'll concede there's a sliver of truth to it. Whatever weaknesses that Dallas has had when it comes to mettle , heart and edge, Kidd addresses those things. For those of you saying Dallas lacked an "alpha dog," they have one now.
DeSagana Diop is a backup center averaging 3 points, 5 rebound and 1 block in 17 minutes per game. This hurts Dallas' depth, but between Juwan Howard and the incoming Malik Allen, they can't possibly replace that? Who is to say they're done tweaking their roster?
Harris' rep as a outstanding perimeter defender is a bit undeserved. He didn't exactly shut down Baron Davis in the playoffs last year, he didn't shut down Dwyane Wade in the Finals, and his presence hasn't stopped Steve Nash from doing whatever he wants against the Mavericks. Yes, the Mavs are going to have some mismatches not in their favor, but who guards Dirk if they play the Suns? Amare? Grant Hill? Who guards Dirk if they play the Lakers? Odom? Gasol?
A lot is being made about how "washed up" and old Kidd is, and there's no question that his acquisition shortens their title window, but the Mavs don't have four titles. Kidd was arguably the best player last summer for Team USA, and Harris is a promising young talent, but you can't put him in the same class as Paul, Deron, Baron, Nash, etc. I think most Mavs fans and even the front office feels like the bargain Miami made to win a title RIGHT FUCKING NOW and pay the mortgage later ended up being worth it. Dirk is about to turn 30, Josh is about to be 28. The Spurs aren't going anywhere anytime soon, neither are the Lakers, and you have teams like Portland and Utah on the rise. It would be nice to have a perennial title contender, but they'll settle for just one.


Trade makes Dallas worse:




With Gasol to the Lakers, Shaq to the Suns to join Amare, and with Duncan still in San Antonio, losing Diop leaves a big hole in the middle that they have yet to address. They solved one problem and potentially created a bigger one.
Harris and Diop together are vital pieces when it comes to matching up with San Antonio, who is likely to be the biggest obstacle for any team seeking to make it out of the West. Dallas is the only team besides Shaq/Kobe and Malone/Stockton to send Tim Duncan home, and some of those X's and O's advantages have been mitigated.
Kidd's acquisition makes it tougher for Dallas to land another interior big that they'll need in the postseason
Harris is probably better suited to defend the quicker guards Dallas likely will see in the playoffs like Paul, Nash, Iverson, Parker, D. Williams, etc.
This moves reeks of desperation in response to the Suns and Lakers acquistions without enough thought to the long-term management of their roster


I was against it, but given the almost certain chemistry problems that would ensue if they were to call it off, they HAVE to go through with it now. The front office and Cuban have repeatedly said they were happy with the team and wanted to give it another shot, and that Harris was their PG. They've just publicly contradicted that stance, and Dirk, Terry and Stackhouse have all reacted with glee to the news of Kidd's acquisition and in a way thrown Devin under the bus.

[spursRgay]

I'm conflicted...I believe it makes us better now, but not for the future. And I do think that Devin Harris is going to evolve into a very good player. I like the 2nd version much better with Stackhouse staying

[MrChug]

Guys, I think everything you're saying makes PERFECT sense and I haven't seen a stupid Mavs comment yet, but there are 2 objective observations that I subject for argument.

#1. Diop in our series' against one another: No one player in a crucial series has struck more nausea or fear in any fan of Tim Duncan than DeSagana Diop. The guy play...after play...after play has forced Tim into bad decisions, or bad shots (assuming he even got one off and didn't have it shoved back in his face). HE'S GONE. Erick Dampier has been eaten alive by Duncan...hell, he even got eaten alive by Fab a few times.

#2. I don't know the fucking statistics, but Devin Harris kicks our ass. He kicks our ass. Let me repeat...HE KICKS OUR ASS. He's fantastic at making the Spurs look (like what we are)...OLD. But we're good. He makes us look like we're the fucking Knicks. We look like we have NO discipline, NO athletes, and NO defensive scheme whatsoever. Like we have either alzheimers on defense or paraplegia. He even takes the fastest player in the league on offense and turns him into, well I don't ever know if you've watched Phil Jackson, Herman Munster or Bill Walton walk, but you get the idea. HE'S GONE.

Discuss.

[monosylab1k]

Discuss.
Gotta beat more teams than just San Antonio to win a title. What's the point of being built to beat the Spurs if you're also built to get your ass kicked by the Warriors?

[spursRgay]

Guys, I think everything you're saying makes PERFECT sense and I haven't seen a stupid Mavs comment yet, but there are 2 objective observations that I subject for argument.

#1. Diop in our series' against one another: No one player in a crucial series has struck more nausea or fear in any fan of Tim Duncan than DeSagana Diop. The guy play...after play...after play has forced Tim into bad decisions, or bad shots (assuming he even got one off and didn't have it shoved back in his face). HE'S GONE. Erick Dampier has been eaten alive by Duncan...hell, he even got eaten alive by Fab a few times.

#2. I don't know the fucking statistics, but Devin Harris kicks our ass. He kicks our ass. Let me repeat...HE KICKS OUR ASS. He's fantastic at making the Spurs look (like what we are)...OLD. But we're good. He makes us look like we're the fucking Knicks. We look like we have NO discipline, NO athletes, and NO defensive scheme whatsoever. Like we have either alzheimers on defense or paraplegia. He even takes the fastest player in the league on offense and turns him into, well I don't ever know if you've watched Phil Jackson, Herman Munster or Bill Walton walk, but you get the idea. HE'S GONE.

Discuss.

Excellent points...I like the trade because neither Harris nor Kidd can shoot but Kidd is a better distributor. I also like Kidd because he is a leader that the Mavs have never had, or else I hope he is. But you're right in that we are giving up two of our main cogs when we play the Spurs. Devin always played Parker well and Diop was the TimmyStopper. I hope it works :smchode:

[mavsfan1000]

Excellent points...I like the trade because neither Harris nor Kidd can shoot but Kidd is a better distributor. I also like Kidd because he is a leader that the Mavs have never had, or else I hope he is. But you're right in that we are giving up two of our main cogs when we play the Spurs. Devin always played Parker well and Diop was the TimmyStopper. I hope it works :smchode:
The Harris of old can't shoot but this year he can. We are giving up a ton with losing Harris. Better than New Jersey could ever ask for an over the hill Kidd. As you see I'm against the trade. Diop also was a big loss against the bigs in the west.

[spursRgay]

The Harris of old can't shoot but this year he can. We are giving up a ton with losing Harris. Better than New Jersey could ever ask for an over the hill Kidd. As you see I'm against the trade. Diop also was a big loss against the bigs in the west.

True, he is getting better but you still can't trust him to consistently knock down jumpers every night. He and Kidd are both very streaky shooters. Trading Diop does make it imperative that we find an additional big man.

[Humble Billy Hayes]

BRING ON JASON KIDD!

The incredibly bad ass Dallas Fucking Mavericks will plunder the assholes of every other NBA team once we add Jason Kidd and his freaky green alien eyes!

LET'S GO MAVS!
LET'S GO MAVS!
LET'S GO MAVS!
LET'S GO MAVS!
LET'S GO MAVS!
LET'S GO MAVS!
LET'S GO MAVS!

I'm gonna be saying this shit a whole hell of a lot, you better be ready....

Jason Kidd, twoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooo shots!

[spursRgay]

Thanks Billy

[mavsfan1000]

True, he is getting better but you still can't trust him to consistently knock down jumpers every night. He and Kidd are both very streaky shooters. Trading Diop does make it imperative that we find an additional big man.
Harris is considerably a better shooter than Kidd this year.
Harris is shooting 48.3% from the field while Kidd is shooting 36.6% from the field. How much better does Harris need to shoot?

[spursRgay]

Harris is considerably a better shooter than Kidd this year.
Harris is shooting 48.3% from the field while Kidd is shooting 36.6% from the field. How much better does Harris need to shoot?

What percentage of his shots are jump shots? I was referring to the fact that they are both streaky jump shooters.

[Findog]

Guys, I think everything you're saying makes PERFECT sense and I haven't seen a stupid Mavs comment yet, but there are 2 objective observations that I subject for argument.

#1. Diop in our series' against one another: No one player in a crucial series has struck more nausea or fear in any fan of Tim Duncan than DeSagana Diop. The guy play...after play...after play has forced Tim into bad decisions, or bad shots (assuming he even got one off and didn't have it shoved back in his face). HE'S GONE. Erick Dampier has been eaten alive by Duncan...hell, he even got eaten alive by Fab a few times.

#2. I don't know the fucking statistics, but Devin Harris kicks our ass. He kicks our ass. Let me repeat...HE KICKS OUR ASS. He's fantastic at making the Spurs look (like what we are)...OLD. But we're good. He makes us look like we're the fucking Knicks. We look like we have NO discipline, NO athletes, and NO defensive scheme whatsoever. Like we have either alzheimers on defense or paraplegia. He even takes the fastest player in the league on offense and turns him into, well I don't ever know if you've watched Phil Jackson, Herman Munster or Bill Walton walk, but you get the idea. HE'S GONE.

Discuss.

To me, it's a risk the Mavs probably felt that they needed to take. Losing Harris' ability to nullify Parker will hurt, but Dirk owns you guys, and now with Kidd he won't have to work as hard for his shots. When it comes to the playoffs, you need a floor general who can execute in the half court, and we no longer are reliant on ISO play. Devin is not the quarterback that Kidd is.

[Findog]

I will feel A LOT better about this if we can swing a deal for a reliable backup for Dampier. No need to compare Diop to the second coming of Ben Wallace in his prime.

[mavsfan1000]

I will feel A LOT better about this if we can swing a deal for a reliable backup for Dampier. No need to compare Diop to the second coming of Ben Wallace in his prime.
San Antonio would also feel better to have a reliable backup center. There just aren't that many Diops in the nba to be had. Kurt Thomas is the best option available but he is undersized and doesn't block shots. Diop was the perfect fit to cover up the weak interior defense. 5.2 rebounds and 1.2 blocks in 17 minutes is pretty efficient. I have no idea why Avery didn't play him more.

[MrChug]

Jason Kidd historically has been one of the finest one on one defenders ever. Tony has just always been able to blow by him. It's MATCHUPS to give credence to what mono was saying. If the Warriors were better than the Mavs, that would mean that the Jazz were too and subsequently the Cavs were as well.

THEY AREN'T. The Mavs as they sat were among the finest teams we as an organization have ever been lucky enough to beat (most of the time).

Are Artest and Bonzi Wells better than Ray Allen, Vince Carter, and Kobe Bryant? HEEEEEEEeeellllllllllllll naw. But they've had their way with Bruce Bowen on occasion because they were bigger and stronger, not better. Just matchups.

[MrChug]

I will feel A LOT better about this if we can swing a deal for a reliable backup for Dampier. No need to compare Diop to the second coming of Ben Wallace in his prime.

I guess that's my point (in reference to my Carter, Allen, and Bryant reference). Tim wouldn't fear Ben Wallace, never has...and at this point never will.

[Findog]

I guess that's my point (in reference to my Carter, Allen, and Bryant reference). Tim wouldn't fear Ben Wallace, never has...and at this point never will.

After it fell apart so publicly, they had to salvage it. Maybe we would've won a title as is, maybe we'll win a title with Kidd, and maybe the opposite is true and we'll fall short no matter if the trade had happened or not. But our chemistry would've been ruined had we stayed intact.

Our defense hasn't been as good this year with Dampier and Diop. Say what you will about what happened against the Warriors, but during that dominant regular season, the Mavs were a very good/great defensive team. They won all those games because they could lock teams down when they needed to. It's what allowed them to get away with being a jumpshooting team, because the D was good enough to bail them out on off-nights and pull out 85-80 games. This year the defense hasn't been as good, and the fact that this team relies on jumpshots has been more glaring. I think our offense improves now with Kidd, but I'm concerned about interior d, which wasn't that great to begin with. I keep hoping they had a secondary plan in place to deal with the loss of Diop. PJ Brown would fit the bill, but he's probably not inclined to get off his couch.

[ludda]

Most mavs fans seem divided.

For the Spurs this is a great move. From an outsiders perspective, I think it was a move the Mavs needed to make. Can anyone honestly say they could get out of the West with their old team? Same problems: no balls, no toughness, no playmaker. Of course Harris improved, but you have to give to get.

If Lakers didnt get Gasol, Phx didnt get Shaq, I doubt this would have happened. But after the GS series, no one feared the Mavs as they were. It was pretty easy to see how to beat them.

Damn, this season is crazy.

[Findog]

Most mavs fans seem divided.

For the Spurs this is a great move. From an outsiders perspective, I think it was a move the Mavs needed to make. Can anyone honestly say they could get out of the West with their old team? Same problems: no balls, no toughness, no playmaker. Of course Harris improved, but you have to give to get.

If Lakers didnt get Gasol, Phx didnt get Shaq, I doubt this would have happened. But after the GS series, no one feared the Mavs as they were. It was pretty easy to see how to beat them.

Damn, this season is crazy.

It's not like the Mavs owned the Spurs, although we've won something like 9 out of 14. The playoff series was pretty much as even as it could get. Who is to say the Mavs would've beaten the Spurs again? Things aren't static, the Spurs aren't exactly the same team as two years ago and now the Mavs certainly aren't.