Quakers and Mormons

[Wild Cobra]

I am rather familiar with both varieties of Christians. More so than any other. I used to go to a Quaker church myself. I have had good friends both Mormon and Quaker, and have Mormon relatives. As a matter of curiosity, both being so different from other Christian faiths, I was wondering what other people know of them.

Rather than any specific religious belief, I am talking about how the morality of the two differing belief systems are. Nothing to do with the spiritual part. Completely society wise.

What are others views of some key differences? I am thinking of one specifically. As people or values go, I would rather associate with either a Quaker or Mormon rather than any other faith I know of. Still, there is a key difference as to why I would vote for a Mormon Commander in Chief, and not Quaker. Anyone know why?

[PixelPusher]

Because Quaker=Pacifist?

Nixon was a Quaker; that didn't stop him from escalating the Vietnam war.

[mikejones99]

can mormons have 9 wives? and we know the Jazz are good this year

[Mitt Romney]

I don't feel a person's personal religious beliefs should have any bearing on their qualification for Office of the President.

[mikejones99]

but why do you sleep with that undergarment? ^^^

[Mitt Romney]

but why do you sleep with that undergarment? ^^^

I don't know why my personal sleeping habits are any business of yours.

[mikejones99]

ameria wants to know or a mormon will never be prez

[Wild Cobra]

Why are there so many idiot jokers in threads that are clearly serious?

[mikejones99]

why are republicans rascist?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

nuke 'em

get them before they get you

[Mitt Romney]

Why are there so many idiot jokers in threads that are clearly serious?

I would have to say that the title of this thread is a good place to start. You cannot spout such stupidity and then expect the rest of us to take you seriously.

[2centsworth]

I would have to say that the title of this thread is a good place to start. You cannot spout such stupidity and then expect the rest of us to take you seriously.
Quakers and Mormons = Stupidity?

[smeagol]

Are Mormons considered Christians? Their belief system is prretty different from the rest of the Christian denominations.

Don't know much about the Quakers.

[101A]

I am rather familiar with both varieties of Christians. More so than any other. I used to go to a Quaker church myself. I have had good friends both Mormon and Quaker, and have Mormon relatives. As a matter of curiosity, both being so different from other Christian faiths, I was wondering what other people know of them.

Rather than any specific religious belief, I am talking about how the morality of the two differing belief systems are. Nothing to do with the spiritual part. Completely society wise.

What are others views of some key differences? I am thinking of one specifically. As people or values go, I would rather associate with either a Quaker or Mormon rather than any other faith I know of. Still, there is a key difference as to why I would vote for a Mormon Commander in Chief, and not Quaker. Anyone know why?I would NEVER vote for a Mormon for President. Does anybody know why?

[101A]

Are Mormons considered Christians? Their belief system is prretty different from the rest of the Christian denominations.

Don't know much about the Quakers.They call themselves Christians. Most other Christian faiths don't accept them at face value as such

[Extra Stout]

They call themselves Christians. Most other Christian faiths don't accept them at face value as such
Considering Mormonism to be a type of Christianity is like considering Christianity to be a form of Judaism.

[2centsworth]

Considering Mormonism to be a type of Christianity is like considering Christianity to be a form of Judaism.
i'll respectfully disagree with that. It can be argued Mormonism is a cult, we can agree juadiam and christianity are religions.

[ChumpDumper]

I would NEVER vote for a Mormon for President. Does anybody know why?No.

Why?

[101A]

No.

Why?
When a Mormon is excommunicated they CANNOT go to heaven; their family is doomed to incompleteness for eternity. Therefore, other humans determine your salvation (in your own mind).

[2centsworth]

btw, for anyone who wants to learn more about mormonism PBS had a really good two part special.

http://www.pbs.org/mormons/

[ChumpDumper]

When a Mormon is excommunicated they CANNOT go to heaven; their family is doomed to incompleteness for eternity. Therefore, other humans determine your salvation (in your own mind).So, what does that have to do with voting for one?

[Duff McCartney]

Are Mormons considered Christians? Their belief system is prretty different from the rest of the Christian denominations.

I would consider Mormons to be Christians. I personally don't think any of their beliefs are so different from any other Christian beliefs.

I don't know much about Quakers but I do find Mormonsim to be a fascinating and also important religion in the religious sense. Not so much in the intellectual or logical sense considering no religion is important in that sense.

I have watched that documentary on Mormonism and I learned alot. It was a rather interesting piece of journalism.

For me the most interesting part of that documentary is not so much the way the church is...but the revelations and visions that Joseph Smith had.

[Extra Stout]

i'll respectfully disagree with that. It can be argued Mormonism is a cult, we can agree juadiam and christianity are religions.
I think my point was that Christianity is not a form of Judaism, just as LDS is not a form of Christianity. Whether somebody views LDS as a cult is subjective. I don't know too many well-adjusted cult members, but I do know a fair number of well-adjusted Mormon families.

[Extra Stout]

I would consider Mormons to be Christians. I personally don't think any of their beliefs are so different from any other Christian beliefs.

I don't know much about Quakers but I do find Mormonsim to be a fascinating and also important religion in the religious sense. Not so much in the intellectual or logical sense considering no religion is important in that sense.

I have watched that documentary on Mormonism and I learned alot. It was a rather interesting piece of journalism.

For me the most interesting part of that documentary is not so much the way the church is...but the revelations and visions that Joseph Smith had.
The Muslim conception of God is considerably closer to Christianity than the Mormon one is. Either you have not really informed yourself about the tenets of Mormonism at all, or you're one of those who basically view all religions as the same.

[101A]

So, what does that have to do with voting for one?Do YOU want a President beholden to another flesh-and-blood individual for his eternal salvation?

[Extra Stout]

I think my point was that Christianity is not a form of Judaism, just as LDS is not a form of Christianity. Whether somebody views LDS as a cult is subjective. I don't know too many well-adjusted cult members, but I do know a fair number of well-adjusted Mormon families.
Although, I must concede that if one defines cult as a religious society that claims to be part of a mainstream religion while rejecting some of that religion's major tenets, then yes, by that definition, LDS is a cult. It rejects monotheism, for instance.

[boutons_]

Here's a few more weird cults to plump up the thread:

http://www.hellholes.net/2008/02/8-most-bizarre-religions-and-cults.html

[ChumpDumper]

Do YOU want a President beholden to another flesh-and-blood individual for his eternal salvation?Eh, I'm not convinced that someone with the ego to become President is likely to be very much beholden to anyone for eternal salvation.

[101A]

Eh, I'm not convinced that someone with the ego to become President is likely to be very much beholden to anyone for eternal salvation.Just the same, I'm not gonna risk it....especially when the Senate Majority Leader is one, as well.

[johnsmith]

Here's a few more weird cults to plump up the thread:

http://www.hellholes.net/2008/02/8-most-bizarre-religions-and-cults.html


Which one do you belong too?

[Duff McCartney]

The Muslim conception of God is considerably closer to Christianity than the Mormon one is. Either you have not really informed yourself about the tenets of Mormonism at all, or you're one of those who basically view all religions as the same.

Because they are basically all the same. Yes I am one of those who views all religions the same because of the knowledge that I've gained from them. There's no difference to me between muslim and jew, catholic or mormon, or protestant or whatever.

It is all the same. But I do think that Mormonism should be considered Christianity because their basic fundamental principle is about Jesus Christ just like mainstream Christianity.

[101A]

Because they are basically all the same. Yes I am one of those who views all religions the same because of the knowledge that I've gained from them. There's no difference to me between muslim and jew, catholic or mormon, or protestant or whatever.

It is all the same. But I do think that Mormonism should be considered Christianity because their basic fundamental principle is about Jesus Christ just like mainstream Christianity.Thank you.

That explains it.

[Duff McCartney]

Thank you.

That explains it.

Explains what?

[101A]

Explains what?Your views.

They are based on cliche and pseudo-intellectualism.

You confirmed it.

[Duff McCartney]

Your views.

They are based on cliche and pseudo-intellectualism.

You confirmed it.

Okay.

[Wild Cobra]

Wow... we seem to have some bigoted people here...

I could be wrong, but a Mormon can stay with his faith and hold positions like Commander in Chief, without compremise of his faith or oath of office. A Quaker would have to compromise their religious values. A Quaker true to their faith would never accept the reality of being Commander in Chief, or properly do such a job.

Pixil hit it dead on for my longwinded question. I never really though I would see so much disregard for Mormons here. The Mormons do believe in the Bible as written. Like was pointed out, Joseph Smith had what some would say a revelation. It is said he was visited by an angel, and given a scroll of which he translated. The beliefs do not defy Christianity as they are additions to it. The Catholics and any other sect of Christianity do the same things. Add their own interpretations to what cannot be found in the Bible.

Get over it people. Whether Smith really had a divine visit, or is a fraud, doesn't matter. Quite frankly I believe any form of organized religion has been corrupted by someone using God for personal gain. That aside, Mormons are some of the best people you will ever find. Most of them maintain a level or morality that few other people of faith achieve.

At least when you understand the literal words of the oldest forms of the Bible, the Mormon beliefs do not contradict the original Hebrew and Chadean text! Other Christian faiths do!

Interesting links:

wiki: Quaker influences (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Quaker_Businesses)

Well known Mormons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latter-day_Saints)

[Duff McCartney]

Pixil hit it dead on for my longwinded question. I never really though I would see so much disregard for Mormons here. The Mormons do believe in the Bible as written. Like was pointed out, Joseph Smith had what some would say a revelation. It is said he was visited by an angel, and given a scroll of which he translated. The beliefs do not defy Christianity as they are additions to it. The Catholics and any other sect of Christianity do the same things. Add their own interpretations to what cannot be found in the Bible.[/URL]

Technically they were golden tablets. And yes he translated them. But I agree with you that Mormonism is part of Christianity.

I think some people just don't want to accept it because of whatever reason. Maybe it's the polygamist thing.

[xrayzebra]

Can I ask a dumb question. Who really cares? I have a hard time
understanding some folks in my own religion much less someone
from a "different" religion. In my own humble opinion, when
the judgement day arrives I think a lot of people are going to
be greatly surprised when they find people from all faiths there
and passing thru those pearly gates. And yes I truly believe
that.

[Wild Cobra]

Can I ask a dumb question. Who really cares? I have a hard time
understanding some folks in my own religion much less someone
from a "different" religion. In my own humble opinion, when
the judgement day arrives I think a lot of people are going to
be greatly surprised when they find people from all faiths there
and passing thru those pearly gates. And yes I truly believe
that.
Agreed. I see it more as personal spiritaulity rather than any one dogma. I think unless someone follows corrupted values and as long as they try do what they belief is right, the spirit moves up rather than down.

[Duff McCartney]

Can I ask a dumb question. Who really cares? I have a hard time
understanding some folks in my own religion much less someone
from a "different" religion. In my own humble opinion, when
the judgement day arrives I think a lot of people are going to
be greatly surprised when they find people from all faiths there
and passing thru those pearly gates. And yes I truly believe
that.

I agree with you there. When I seldom believe that there is a god, I'm pretty sure it's all the same.

[Extra Stout]

Technically they were golden tablets. And yes he translated them. But I agree with you that Mormonism is part of Christianity.

I think some people just don't want to accept it because of whatever reason. Maybe it's the polygamist thing.
Christianity is a monotheistic religion. Mormonism is polytheistic. Christianity belives in an uncreated and transcendant God. Mormonism believes that gods are created and corporeal. Mormonism believes that human beings can become gods. Christianity does not believe that.

These are major fundamental differences at the core of theology. By your definition, if somebody developed a strain of Pastafarianism that claimed that Jesus Christ was the primary prophet of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, that strain must therefore be Christian because it had become centered around Jesus.

[Extra Stout]

Wow... we seem to have some bigoted people here...

I could be wrong, but a Mormon can stay with his faith and hold positions like Commander in Chief, without compremise of his faith or oath of office. A Quaker would have to compromise their religious values. A Quaker true to their faith would never accept the reality of being Commander in Chief, or properly do such a job.

Pixil hit it dead on for my longwinded question. I never really though I would see so much disregard for Mormons here. The Mormons do believe in the Bible as written. Like was pointed out, Joseph Smith had what some would say a revelation. It is said he was visited by an angel, and given a scroll of which he translated. The beliefs do not defy Christianity as they are additions to it. The Catholics and any other sect of Christianity do the same things. Add their own interpretations to what cannot be found in the Bible.

Get over it people. Whether Smith really had a divine visit, or is a fraud, doesn't matter. Quite frankly I believe any form of organized religion has been corrupted by someone using God for personal gain. That aside, Mormons are some of the best people you will ever find. Most of them maintain a level or morality that few other people of faith achieve.

At least when you understand the literal words of the oldest forms of the Bible, the Mormon beliefs do not contradict the original Hebrew and Chadean text! Other Christian faiths do!

The bigotry against Mormons in the latter part of the 20th century stems from a campaign by the Southern Baptist Convention to villify them. A significant number of Baptists were impressed by the clean lifestyle of Mormons and were apostasizing from Christianity to Mormonism. The SBC responded with a campaign that claimed that not only was LDS deviant from orthodox Protestant Christianity, but that it also was a dangerous cult. This meme spread to other evangelical groups.

Some Christians refuse to vote for a Mormon because they fear his election would lend a higher profile to the LDS faith and cause more people to convert.

My personal position is that I actually affirm the part of the Constitution that says there shall be no religious test for public office, and that my evaluation of a candidate has more to do with the degree his political values agree with mine than whether his religion agrees with mine. On that ground, Romney's religion was a non-issue for me. Somehow, Orrin Hatch and Gordon Smith have managed to serve America well in the Senate without subverting our political process to the whims of the LDS Church.

However, to be clear, Islam is closer to orthodox Christianity than Mormonism is, regardless of whether LDS uses the Bible as part of its scriptures or not. There is no such thing as polytheistic Christianity.

I will concur with your observation about the admirable morality of many Mormon families.

[xrayzebra]

Hey, As a matter of information. The FBI used to recruit from
the Mormons. J. Edgar thought they made the best agents.
Look it up.

I have always respected the young men who went out and
practiced what they preached. You may not like it, but you
sure cant knock it. And one the best neighbors I ever had
was a Mormon. Of course, lemon pie and water wasnt my
choice. But it worked....LOL

[Duff McCartney]

There's nothing polytheistic about Mormonism. The fact that they consider god, jesus, and the holy spirit to be seperate doesn't make it a polytheistic religion.


The Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants both describe God the Father, his Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost as being "one God," though Latter-day Saints generally understand this oneness to be in purpose, desire, and all divine attributes while maintaining their physical and personal distinctness.

I guess you could interpret that as being a polytheistic but I would consider that they believe the "oneness to be in purpose, desire, and all divine attributes" to be a monotheistic belief.


By your definition, if somebody developed a strain of Pastafarianism that claimed that Jesus Christ was the primary prophet of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, that strain must therefore be Christian because it had become centered around Jesus.

Sure. Of course. And who am I to tell them they are wrong...who are you? Nobody.

[2centsworth]

There's nothing polytheistic about Mormonism. The fact that they consider god, jesus, and the holy spirit to be seperate doesn't make it a polytheistic religion.Polytheistic= more than one God.




I guess you could interpret that as being a polytheistic but I would consider that they believe the "oneness to be in purpose, desire, and all divine attributes" to be a monotheistic belief.
how about the fact they can become gods.




Sure. Of course. And who am I to tell them they are wrong...who are you? Nobody.uh..the facts?

[Extra Stout]

There's nothing polytheistic about Mormonism. The fact that they consider god, jesus, and the holy spirit to be seperate doesn't make it a polytheistic religion.

I guess you could interpret that as being a polytheistic but I would consider that they believe the "oneness to be in purpose, desire, and all divine attributes" to be a monotheistic belief.
Mormons believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit comprise the one God of Earth. Every habitated planet has its own separate god. Faithful Mormons upon death become the gods of their own planets which they then populate with their spirit children. There are an innumerable number of gods in the Mormon universe.



Sure. Of course. And who am I to tell them they are wrong...who are you? Nobody.
I actually believe there are things which are propositionally true about my religion. I am not one of these postmodern airheads who think that no shred of truth is really verifiable, that everything is context- and experience-dependent, and that words don't really mean things. In my belief system, certain major beliefs comprise the necessary dogma of the kernel of faith, which if unbelieved by somebody precludes his being a Christian. I don't begrudge anyone's right to believe what he wants if he causes no one harm, but I do not share the communal fellowship of the faithful with him if he does not believe the same things.

[Duff McCartney]

uh..the facts?

I'm not a fact.

I guess what my point of emphasis is that if you don't consider Mormonism to be part of Christianity or whatever, then I must really ask do you believe that Joseph Smith was lying?

I mean really in that documentary a evangelical said he doesn't believe that Joseph Smith was visited by god or jesus, but that he doesn't believe that Joseph Smith was lying about the entire thing.

So it begs the question for alot of people to consider and one of the main reasons why the religious part of my brain has to believe Mormonism to be important, do you think he was lying or made it up?

In the religious sense, I have to believe it happened because it is proof to me that God if there is one, did not stop giving revelation and visions after the events of the Bible. God still can give new revelations even up until the present time. Well as present as 1830 can get.

In the subject of the god of different planets deal I actually find that to be rather interesting in many ways. Because it allows for the concept of their to be life on other planets and as far as I know, Christianity doesn't allow for anything like that. God is the ruler of the universe in Christianity, but it never actually says that life was put on these other planets as well.

[xrayzebra]

Can I ask a question. Is the question about Quakers and Mormons
going to be answered here. Or for that matter is any question
about religion going to ever be answered. Not in my life or yours.
Any religion that "rules" by fear is wrong. And don't start the
"hell fire" and "brimstone" junk. I am talking about where you
have the religious police out checking on the people and
their everyday life.

[smeagol]

Bottom line: One needs to be informed and well prepared to discuss religion with ES .

Duff, you clearly are not.

[DarkReign]

Can I ask a dumb question. Who really cares?

Best post yet.

[Duff McCartney]

Some Christians refuse to vote for a Mormon because they fear his election would lend a higher profile to the LDS faith and cause more people to convert.

From what I saw on a Mormon documentary is that while the LDS has high rates of conversion, it has a hard time keeping people in the faith. Many of the people who convert to Mormonism tend to drop out of the faith within their first year from what I recall.

[angrydude]

Mormons believe that we there is one God (big G). That being said there are other 'gods' (little g) in the sense that they are godlike but not the same as God himself.

That whole business about mormons ruling their own planet is also very speculative doctrine even within mormon circles. For one consider the mormon heaven is actually right here on earth after the end of the world.

[spurster]

This seems like a good list of differences between the LDS and more orthodox Christianity.

http://www.carm.org/lds/lds_doctrines.htm

[Phenomanul]

I'm not a fact.

I guess what my point of emphasis is that if you don't consider Mormonism to be part of Christianity or whatever, then I must really ask do you believe that Joseph Smith was lying?

I mean really in that documentary a evangelical said he doesn't believe that Joseph Smith was visited by god or jesus, but that he doesn't believe that Joseph Smith was lying about the entire thing.

So it begs the question for alot of people to consider and one of the main reasons why the religious part of my brain has to believe Mormonism to be important, do you think he was lying or made it up?

In the religious sense, I have to believe it happened because it is proof to me that God if there is one, did not stop giving revelation and visions after the events of the Bible. God still can give new revelations even up until the present time. Well as present as 1830 can get.

In the subject of the god of different planets deal I actually find that to be rather interesting in many ways. Because it allows for the concept of their to be life on other planets and as far as I know, Christianity doesn't allow for anything like that. God is the ruler of the universe in Christianity, but it never actually says that life was put on these other planets as well.

I believe Joseph Smith lied about many things.

For example; there was a time when a traveling 'museum' passed by Smith's town with old Egyptian artifacts and scrolls. Smith bought the scrolls off of the travelers and claimed that they were the "Lost book of Abraham". He then proceeded to 'decipher' the scrolls. His translation produced new stories, and doctrines. Amazed at his feat, and since no one at that time could interpret the hieroglyphics (to provide counterpoint), his followers' belief that Smith was a prophet was reaffirmed.

It turned out the scrolls were nothing more than common Egyptian death rite passages. Smith lied about the whole thing! The 'Book of Abraham' however, is still considered an integral piece of inspired literature as far as the LDS church is concerned - even though enough evidence exists to discredit the book's origin.

Having said that I would also concur with the notion that many mormons have an admirable code of conduct and sense of morality.

[DarkReign]

As a side note semi-related to the topic...

I never understood modern religions. Though I may not personally believe in anything written by man (supposedly interpreted from God), I can at least *see* why people place their faith in scripture that is quite old.

Yet, the LDS are how old? Scientologists? LDS was founded in 1830 (quick google)...guess people were more gullible then.

Its that part of it I dont understand...some guy gets a wild hair up his ass, claims he has the Word from God, and people follow him like lemmings.

Are people that desperate for direction and meaning to life that they would latch on to any faux-prophet in the general vicinity promising salvation?

Must be a shallow existence. But thats my opinion, anyway.

[dimsah]

Are people that desperate for direction and meaning to life that they would latch on to any faux-prophet in the general vicinity promising salvation?

Must be a shallow existence. But thats my opinion, anyway.
Perhaps existence was so bleak during that time that they craved something new to believe in. Hope can be very powerful.

[Wild Cobra]

Christianity is a monotheistic religion. Mormonism is polytheistic. Christianity belives in an uncreated and transcendant God. Mormonism believes that gods are created and corporeal. Mormonism believes that human beings can become gods. Christianity does not believe that.

You are wrong on those accounts. That is one way in which the English versions of the Bible have been incorrectly interpreted, and today's false prophets teach. The original text never says there is only one God, in fact it acknowledges other God's. Jehovah however told Moses the Hebrew's would worship no other God! It never says that man cannot achieve becoming a God. I think it does imply we can.

[Wild Cobra]

I believe Joseph Smith lied about many things.

For example; there was a time when a traveling 'museum' passed by Smith's town with old Egyptian artifacts and scrolls. Smith bought the scrolls off of the travelers and claimed that they were the "Lost book of Abraham". He then proceeded to 'decipher' the scrolls. His translation produced new stories, and doctrines. Amazed at his feat, and since no one at that time could interpret the hieroglyphics (to provide counterpoint), his followers' belief that Smith was a prophet was reaffirmed.

It turned out the scrolls were nothing more than common Egyptian death rite passages. Smith lied about the whole thing! The 'Book of Abraham' however, is still considered an integral piece of inspired literature as far as the LDS church is concerned - even though enough evidence exists to discredit the book's origin.

Having said that I would also concur with the notion that many mormons have an admirable code of conduct and sense of morality.
This story may or may not be true. Isn't it as likely that the Urban Myth of this story should be questioned for validity?

Any hard evidence?

[angrydude]

People believed Joseph Smith because he was really young and uneducated when The Book of Mormon was produced. That and the revelations he pretty much got on a monthly basis for the next 10 years.

[mikejones99]

HBO has story of Mormons on Real sports

[bendmz]

I've never felt religion as we know it was meant to be complicated.....
Maybe by answering this question, we can understand each other's views better,"You see that MAN over there?"

[Duff McCartney]

This story may or may not be true. Isn't it as likely that the Urban Myth of this story should be questioned for validity?

Any hard evidence?

Yeah I think there is. And I have heard about that. Although he could have mistranslated it, I don't think the was lying about everything.


Yet, the LDS are how old? Scientologists? LDS was founded in 1830 (quick google)...guess people were more gullible then.

Its that part of it I dont understand...some guy gets a wild hair up his ass, claims he has the Word from God, and people follow him like lemmings.

Are people that desperate for direction and meaning to life that they would latch on to any faux-prophet in the general vicinity promising salvation?

I personally believe that for me, the reason I can see why people follow Mormonism or any other new religion is that I have to believe that God still gives revelations. He/she didn't stop after Jesus died. It's impossible. There is just no way that can happen. I think that's why I think some people rally around new religions.

On the subject of disproving religions, I think that if hard evidence existed to disprove aspects of the Bible or Koran, lots of people wouldn't believe it. I think there probably is hard evidence to disprove things in the Bible right now that nobody talks about.

[Extra Stout]

You are wrong on those accounts. That is one way in which the English versions of the Bible have been incorrectly interpreted, and today's false prophets teach. The original text never says there is only one God, in fact it acknowledges other God's. Jehovah however told Moses the Hebrew's would worship no other God! It never says that man cannot achieve becoming a God. I think it does imply we can.
Funny, those Hebrew-speaking Jews don't seem to find multiple gods in the text either.

[Phenomanul]

This story may or may not be true. Isn't it as likely that the Urban Myth of this story should be questioned for validity?

Any hard evidence?


The remnant of the scroll's that Smith's wife kept. They survived a fire. Ironically, I believe they are housed in a museum in Chicago.

[Phenomanul]

You are wrong on those accounts. That is one way in which the English versions of the Bible have been incorrectly interpreted, and today's false prophets teach. The original text never says there is only one God, in fact it acknowledges other God's. Jehovah however told Moses the Hebrew's would worship no other God! It never says that man cannot achieve becoming a God. I think it does imply we can.

What do you think got Adam and Eve kicked out of the Garden of Eden?

Obviously their disobedience... but what were they trying to do, as suggested by Lucifer? They were trying to become GODlike.

Lucifer's downfall, amidst his vainity, was attributed to the same cause.

See a pattern? It's one GOD doesn't like. So why would the LDS church suggest that we as humans can become gods? GOD has already imparted immortality to our spirits - but that was given to us the day GOD created Adam - it is not something that we have to strive to attain. What we do with that immortality is another matter altogether. Besides, the GOD of the traditional biblical canon does not promise us the allure of becoming like Him, He gives us the promise of an eternity with Him - for His glory and not our own.

And yes, other 'gods' do exist, but not in the sense that you're implying - anything that takes the place of the One True GOD, becomes a god to our corruptible hearts. GOD wants to occupy 1st place in our lives and when we reject Him, we have placed 'other gods' before Him. Furthermore, it is not that inconceivable to suggest that certain demons have masqueraded themselves as gods throughout history (Deimos, Dagon, Ra, Baal etc...). Some of them wield massive amounts of supernatural power, and one of their goals is to detract humanity from attaining a relationship with the ONE and ONLY GOD.

[Soul_Patch]

All i know is the Quakers make some damn good oat meal...



AM I RITE?

[DarkReign]

All i know is the Quakers make some damn good oat meal...



AM I RITE?

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/images/smilies/rimshot.gif

[Duff McCartney]

One True GOD[/I], becomes a god to our corruptible hearts. GOD wants to occupy 1st place in our lives and when we reject Him, we have placed 'other gods' before Him. Furthermore, it is not that inconceivable to suggest that certain demons have masqueraded themselves as gods throughout history (Deimos, Dagon, Ra, Baal etc...). Some of them wield massive amounts of supernatural power, and one of their goals is to detract humanity from attaining a relationship with the ONE and ONLY GOD.

Other gods are the same as the one true god. They are all just different manifestations. As someone stated before, religion is a personal thing. That's why there are so many of them. It's impossible that just one is right, so then they are all right.

[Wild Cobra]

One True GOD, becomes a god to our corruptible hearts. GOD wants to occupy 1st place in our lives and when we reject Him, we have placed 'other gods' before Him. Furthermore, it is not that inconceivable to suggest that certain demons have masqueraded themselves as gods throughout history (Deimos, Dagon, Ra, Baal etc...). Some of them wield massive amounts of supernatural power, and one of their goals is to detract humanity from attaining a relationship with the ONE and ONLY GOD.
Other gods are the same as the one true god. They are all just different manifestations. As someone stated before, religion is a personal thing. That's why there are so many of them. It's impossible that just one is right, so then they are all right.
Well, while Duff is preaching today, he doesn't see what we see. I was going to say something rather similar. I'll add that the Judeo-Christian God is simply a different entity than the others. We have no way of knowing who is stronger. I would find it hard to believe that if there was only one true powerful God, that Revelations would speak of "A War in Heaven." There are many theories we could explore, but we simply don't have enough evidence to know the real truth. If you think about mankind as being pieces of an elaborate game of Civilization, with different entities guiding us... Isn't it funny how the nation founded on Christian principles has always allied itself with the nation of Israel? We have the same God! Could there be some divine intervention there?

It is faith that tells someone that Jehovah is the only real God. Zeus, Apollo, Thor, Baal, etc. may have been real God's. Just not a God in many people image. The Bible says God created mankind in his image, so why do we envision him as so much more?

Some of them wield massive amounts of supernatural power, and one of their goals is to detract humanity from attaining a relationship with the ONE and ONLY GOD.
So they aren't Gods?

Do some research of the past old meanings of God in Chaldean or Hebrew There are actually more than 20 forms of the word translated to "God" in our Bible. The most common form in Genesis prior to chapter 6 is the plural form! The word implies levels of powers not understood, but also "exceeding." It also meant someone of powerful wealth and position. There is no absolute description of a God being supernatural. The God's could perform Magic. Astrology was also mentioned. The root of these words in Chaldean if I recall correctly is "science!" With our abilities, we would be God's to civilizations of the past. It is very plausible that the "Chariots of the God's" were spaceships, and that God's are just a more advanced life form.

Now if you study the various religions, you find overlapping stories of things like the creation and the flood. Part of the ancient Sumerian text can be interpreted to explain the "missing link" in mankind. It names God's who came to earth, placed the native humans as slaves, and altered us to be better workers for their needs. This is supposable about 60,000 years ago.

Back to the plural God, and incorrect definitions. In the creation, God did not create Adam and Eve, but the Gods created mankind! The proper names are most often misused until the story of Adam, Eve, Cain, and Able. Before that, Adam means mankind, Eve means Woman (life bringer). When God took a rib from Adam, created Eve and giving her to Adam, the text really describes God taking a "curve" from mankind and giving her to Adam. "Rib" does not come from a curved bone, or and description of any anatomy. Maybe mankind recognized women had curves then too? The word used more clearly means "scoop" and it could really be that simply. God pick a woman (scooped from mankind) for Adam from mankind, bringing her to the garden for Adam.

There are numerous fallacies in our Bible. You cannot rely on the way any English version is written. They all have serious flaws. To understand them, you must do some research on the original texts.

[Extra Stout]

There are numerous fallacies in our Bible. You cannot rely on the way any English version is written. They all have serious flaws. To understand them, you must do some research on the original texts.
And let me guess... the pre-eminent scholars on the ancient Hebrew language in all the world just happen to be predominantly located in Salt Lake City, Utah, right?

[Extra Stout]

I think the mistake the ancient Church fathers made was relying on their faulty English translations.

[Spurminator]

Other gods are the same as the one true god. They are all just different manifestations. As someone stated before, religion is a personal thing. That's why there are so many of them. It's impossible that just one is right, so then they are all right.

So there really IS a Flying Spaghetti Monster??

[Wild Cobra]

And let me guess... the pre-eminent scholars on the ancient Hebrew language in all the world just happen to be predominantly located in Salt Lake City, Utah, right?
Not at all. Consider this. The King James Bible was translated in the 1600's. The scholars of the time didn't have the resources to properly interpret the Bible to English back then. There is likely political and cultural motivations to have swayed the translators. Today's understanding of ancient languages by modern scholars is far more complete than the few people that translated the Bible then, which I believe was nine. On top of that, they translated it from Greek. Only the New Testament was written in Greek. The old testament was in Hebrew and Chaldean. They translated a translation of the original text, which also could have had revisions from the era of Caesars!

[DarkReign]

So there really IS a Flying Spaghetti Monster??

The references to "Gods" being "stronger" than other "Gods" and the other BS being tossed around here like a salad makes me think just how stupid all of this really is.

A bunch of fucking adults arguing which superhero is stronger than the other, only they are dead serious about the implications of the conclusion of such an argument.

This is ridiculous.

But I guess thats religion in a nutshell..."My God can beat up your God!"

And the religious wonder why some people choose not to participate in their mass delusion.

[Wild Cobra]

So there really IS a Flying Spaghetti Monster??
If there is a "Flying Purple People Eater" then I would say likely so.

[Wild Cobra]

The references to "Gods" being "stronger" than other "Gods" and the other BS being tossed around here like a salad makes me think just how stupid all of this really is.

A bunch of fucking adults arguing which superhero is stronger than the other, only they are dead serious about the implications of the conclusion of such an argument.

This is ridiculous.

But I guess thats religion in a nutshell..."My God can beat up your God!"

And the religious wonder why some people choose not to participate in their mass delusion.
I only think the way most people create the image of their God is wrong, and delusional. There is plenty of evidence beyond dogma to show that God's did live here on Earth at one time in history. Spiritually, I have no doubt that we have a spirit that exceeds the bounds of flesh. I can only speculate the depths of that reality.

Back on point. To say that the Mormons are wrong is no more than opinion. There is no evidence that their interpretations are wrong.

If that part of a said scroll does indeed still exist, we still only have limited knowledge of the real context of what it was said to be. Smith may have had his hands on more than one, or the scroll may have contained more than just a burial ceremony. He may have actually had as part of the text, what he claimed to have. To say that a remaining burned piece does not support his claim is ridiculous. He may of in fact had as he claimed, and it could now be destroyed.

I guess I should say that I also believe Joseph Smith was a fraud. I am just open to the possibility he wasn't.

[Extra Stout]

Not at all. Consider this. The King James Bible was translated in the 1600's. The scholars of the time didn't have the resources to properly interpret the Bible to English back then. There is likely political and cultural motivations to have swayed the translators. Today's understanding of ancient languages by modern scholars is far more complete than the few people that translated the Bible then, which I believe was nine. On top of that, they translated it from Greek. Only the New Testament was written in Greek. The old testament was in Hebrew and Chaldean. They translated a translation of the original text, which also could have had revisions from the era of Caesars!
The Masoretic Text is in Greek?

[Extra Stout]

Frankly, I just find it amazing that Christians throughout history have been coming to these conclusions about God by relying on these faulty English translations. That is a real eye-opener.

So, did Jerome translate to Latin from the King James text? That must have made one muddled translation.

If Cyril and Methodius were using the flawed English text when they brought Scripture to the Slavs, why did they use all those goofy-looking characters for their new alphabet? The mind boggles.

[Extra Stout]

So, like, if Luther had used original manuscripts instead of the King James for his German Bible, like, would Mormonism have swept over Europe in the 1500's?

[Wild Cobra]

The Masoretic Text is in Greek?
Let me clarify. I did leave out something. Yes, the Hebrew language Masoretic text was used. However, so was the Septuagint, which is the Greek translated version. The people of the time understood the Greek language far better, so it can be assumed that the words they didn't understand, they fell back on the Septuagint.

[Duff McCartney]

A bunch of fucking adults arguing which superhero is stronger than the other, only they are dead serious about the implications of the conclusion of such an argument.

This is ridiculous.

But I guess thats religion in a nutshell..."My God can beat up your God!"

And the religious wonder why some people choose not to participate in their mass delusion.

I'm with you...my arguement here is not about the definition of Gods or Bible translations, it's merely to the point that everything in every religion is the same. It's all the same god, just different manifestations.

I'm far from being religious and I rarely believe there is a god, but if there is one and he IS as powerful and all knowing and all being as is written, then you have to believe that he can show himself in any form whether it be the Mormon way, the Hindu way, or the Buddhist way.

[Duff McCartney]

So there really IS a Flying Spaghetti Monster??

Why not? God is all and everything..I would assume that god can also manifest itself as a flying spaghetti entity...or would that be assuming too much?

[MannyIsGod]

Can I ask a dumb question. Who really cares? I have a hard time
understanding some folks in my own religion much less someone
from a "different" religion. In my own humble opinion, when
the judgement day arrives I think a lot of people are going to
be greatly surprised when they find people from all faiths there
and passing thru those pearly gates. And yes I truly believe
that.Very, very solid post. Nice job.

[101A]

Let me clarify. I did leave out something. Yes, the Hebrew language Masoretic text was used. However, so was the Septuagint, which is the Greek translated version. The people of the time understood the Greek language far better, so it can be assumed that the words they didn't understand, they fell back on the Septuagint.So, all of these bible passages are incorrectly translated (and why are you focussing on the KJ - the NIV is a modern translation, by modern scholars with a more complete understanding of ancient languages - it certainly doesn't argue for polytheism)?




1. DEUTERONOMY 4:35,39 — Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. (39) Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

2. DEUTERONOMY 6:4 — Hear, O Israel: The LORD thy God is one LORD. [Note in Mark 12:28-34 how Jesus and a Jewish scribe he encountered understood this text.]

3. DEUTERONOMY 32:39 — See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

4. 2 SAMUEL 7:22 — Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

5. 1 KINGS 8:60 — That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.

6. 2 KINGS 5:15 — And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel; now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant.

7. 2 KINGS 19:15 — And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.

8. 1 CHRONICLES 17:20 — O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

9. NEHEMIAH 9:6 — Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou has made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

10. PSALM 18:31 — For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

11. PSALM 86:10 — For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.

12. ISAIAH 37:16,20 — O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou has made heaven and earth. (20) Now therefore, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the LORD, even thou only.

13. ISAIAH 43:10,11 — Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.

14. ISAIAH 44:6,8 — Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Fear ye not, neither be afraid; have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

15. ISAIAH 45:21 — Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time: who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me.

16. ISAIAH 46:9 — For I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.

17. HOSEA 13:4 — Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me; for there is no savior beside me.

18. JOEL 2:27 — And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

19. ZECHARIAH 14:9 — And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

20. MARK 12:29-34 —And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

21. JOHN 17:3 — And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

22. ROMANS 3:30 — Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

23. 1 CORINTHIANS 8:4-6 — As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

24. GALATIANS 3:20 — Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

25. EPHESIANS 4:6 — One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

26. 1 TIMOTHY 1:17 — Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

27. 1 TIMOTHY 2:5 — For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

28. JAMES 2:19 — Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

[Extra Stout]

101A apparently stayed up late.

[101A]

101A apparently stayed up late.101A did.

:smokin

(but not typing that list - that was Google)

[johnsmith]

Bart Simpson: "Easy on the zeal Churchos ... I've got something to say. Don't you get it? It's all Christianity, people! The little stupid differences are nothing next to the big stupid similarities!"

[JoeChalupa]

I just believe.

[ploto]

This all just reminds me of Lewis Black. Hope people have a sense of humor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGrlWOhtj3g

[101A]

This all just reminds me of Lewis Black. Hope people have a sense of humor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGrlWOhtj3glol

[boutons_]

Lewis Black's show is great. I've watched it many times.

[Wild Cobra]

So, all of these bible passages are incorrectly translated (and why are you focussing on the KJ - the NIV is a modern translation, by modern scholars with a more complete understanding of ancient languages - it certainly doesn't argue for polytheism)?

Say what you will about other translation, they too are incorrect. Your quotes do not show that there is only one God. They only show that Jehovah says there is no other God on his team. As for the one that states no God formed before or after him, that simply means that Gods are not created.

I looked most complete into the first five passages you quoted. In all five cases, the words used are incorrectly translated. The word "Lord" should be the proper name Jehovah. "God" is deity in the plural form. "None else" does come from "no other", but is qualified with "beside."

Now I don't like the Young's Literal Translation, but it is the best on-line source I know of. It rarely separates the various unique forms of the word "God" and when a word has multiple implications, it stays with the preconceived notions. I wish it would expand on the various forms when some Chaldean and Hebrew words have multiple meaning. When you see how various passages can be interpreted, you see there is a large margin of possibilities.

A few passages that defy standard preconceptions:


Genesis 1:26
And God saith, `Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness, and let them rule over fish of the sea, and over fowl of the heavens, and over cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that is creeping on the earth.'


Genesis 6:
1 And it cometh to pass that mankind have begun to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters have been born to them,

2 and sons of God see the daughters of men that they [are] fair, and they take to themselves women of all whom they have chosen.

3 And Jehovah saith, `My Spirit doth not strive in man -- to the age; in their erring they [are] flesh:' and his days have been an hundred and twenty years.

4 The fallen ones were in the earth in those days, and even afterwards when sons of God come in unto daughters of men, and they have borne to them -- they [are] the heroes, who, from of old, [are] the men of name.

5 And Jehovah seeth that abundant [is] the wickedness of man in the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart only evil all the day;

6 and Jehovah repenteth that He hath made man in the earth, and He grieveth Himself -- unto His heart.

7 And Jehovah saith, `I wipe away man whom I have prepared from off the face of the ground, from man unto beast, unto creeping thing, and unto fowl of the heavens, for I have repented that I have made them.'

I'm not going to break that down except to state the in these passages too, the word "god" is the plural form of diety. Here is the link for various Bibles:

Bible Gateway dot com (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=1&version=15)

[101A]

Say what you will about other translation, they too are incorrect. Your quotes do not show that there is only one God. They only show that Jehovah says there is no other God on his team. As for the one that states no God formed before or after him, that simply means that Gods are not created.

I looked most complete into the first five passages you quoted. In all five cases, the words used are incorrectly translated. The word "Lord" should be the proper name Jehovah. "God" is deity in the plural form. "None else" does come from "no other", but is qualified with "beside."

Now I don't like the Young's Literal Translation, but it is the best on-line source I know of. It rarely separates the various unique forms of the word "God" and when a word has multiple implications, it stays with the preconceived notions. I wish it would expand on the various forms when some Chaldean and Hebrew words have multiple meaning. When you see how various passages can be interpreted, you see there is a large margin of possibilities.

A few passages that defy standard preconceptions:



I'm not going to break that down except to state the in these passages too, the word "god" is the plural form of diety. Here is the link for various Bibles:

Bible Gateway dot com (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=1&version=15)Just so we are clear.

The point was made by Extra Stout that Christianity is a Monotheistic Religion, and that Mormonism is a Polythesitic Religion; that that was a fundamental difference, and that the two religions are VERY dissimilar, despite Mormons calling themselves "Christian".

It is ridiculous to debate the point on WHETHER the bible supports one, or multiple gods (Gods?) You, obviously, believe in a polytheistic text; I (and ALL of the other Christians) do not. Thank you for reaffirming ES's premise.

[Wild Cobra]

Just so we are clear.

The point was made by Extra Stout that Christianity is a Monotheistic Religion, and that Mormonism is a Polythesitic Religion; that that was a fundamental difference, and that the two religions are VERY dissimilar, despite Mormons calling themselves "Christian".

It is ridiculous to debate the point on WHETHER the bible supports one, or multiple gods (Gods?) You, obviously, believe in a polytheistic text; I (and ALL of the other Christians) do not. Thank you for reaffirming ES's premise.
The test for Christianity is the belief of Jesus. Not if there is more than one God. Being a Christian doesn't mean you only believe in one God, but that you only follow and worship Jehovah. That is the only point of which a single God must be acknowledged in Christianity.

You are not a Christian if you worship a God other than Jehovah.

[ChumpDumper]

Hope people have a sense of humor."Croation Shaman"

[101A]

The test for Christianity is the belief of Jesus. Not if there is more than one God. Being a Christian doesn't mean you only believe in one God, but that you only follow and worship Jehovah. That is the only point of which a single God must be acknowledged in Christianity.

You are not a Christian if you worship a God other than Jehovah.OK.

I believe there is only One God. I believe that is very clearly explained in the bible. Every single person I know that is not a Mormon, but calls themselves a Christian, agrees with me.

You Don't.

Got it.

[johnsmith]

Sweet, another argument about religion on spurstalk.com.............these always conclude with convincing the other that he/she is wrong and you are right.

[101A]

Sweet, another argument about religion on spurstalk.com.............these always conclude with convincing the other that he/she is wrong and you are right.Just to be on record: my past two posts have attempted to end the debate by "agreeing to disagree".

[ploto]

"Croation Shaman"
That wasn't a joke- a joke is intentional and intelligent. That was someone showing her ignorance and geographic stupidity.

[spurster]

Actually, one of Islam's criticisms of Christianity is that Christianity is polytheistic (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

[Yonivore]

Actually, one of Islam's criticisms of Christianity is that Christianity is polytheistic (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).
A triune God isn't polytheistic.

[ChumpDumper]

That wasn't a joke- a joke is intentional and intelligent. That was someone showing her ignorance and geographic stupidity.Now it's a joke, dumbass.

[Phenomanul]

The test for Christianity is the belief of Jesus's redemptive act for humanity...

FIXED

JESUS is more than "just a good person" or a "prophet" as the LDS church suggests.

JESUS is GOD incarnate.
JESUS existed uncreated. He has no beginning and no end.
Acceptance of JESUS' sacrifice, and repentance from sin is the only path to GOD the Father.

Those are some of the core tenets of those who profess to be 'Christians'.

[Phenomanul]

In short Mormonism is not a branch of Christianity.

And that's that. There's no point to continuing this argument.

[smeagol]

In short Mormonism is not a branch of Christianity.

And that's that. There's no point to continuing this argument.

If Mormons are Christians, so are Jehova's Witnesses, 7th Day Adventists and Christian Scientists.

The truth is, these four groups are far away from any brand of Christianity: Cathilicism, Protestantism, Eastern Orthodox, etc . . .