The Phoenix Suns are Fucked

[Xylus]

Or... "The Phoenix Suns, Phucking Suck."

Since trading away Shawn Marion for Shaquille O'Neal, the Suns are 2-3. In those losses, the Lakers have dropped 130 points on them, the Pistons dropped 116 on them, and the New Orleans Hornets ripped our heads off and shat down our throats for the 4th straight time. In the two wins, they only managed to score 85 points against an extremely lethargic Celtics squad, and they allowed the Memphis Grizzlies to make it a close game.

In the last 8 or 9 months since the Spurs eliminated the Suns in what could have been a 7-game series (had Amare and Diaw been a little smarter), our front office has traded away 3 of our 4 best defenders. First, James Jones was shipped to Portland. Now, Jones wasn't a great player--we brought him in to shoot 3's, and he had a terrible season last year. But he was a solid defender and decent rebounder, who gave us a solid contribution off the bench, even if it wasn't on the offensive end. Now he's in Portland shooting lights out from 3 (48% on 120 attempts).

Second, we traded away Kurt Thomas, which I've gone on record as saying was the worst mistake the Suns have ever, EVER made. I can't stress this enough--news of the Kurt Thomas trade hurt as badly as the news of Amare Stoudemire's microfracture surgery...which, coincidentally, occurred in an even-numbered year when we had a great shot at the title. The FO saw that they would have to pay quite a bit of money to keep Thomas, so they simply gave him to Seattle for virtually nothing. Our only player with the ability to competently guard Tim Duncan and a few other worthy bigs in the West... Gone. For what? So Sarver could save some money.

As a result of the Kurt Thomas trade, the Suns discovered at the beginning of 2008 that we can't defend a post player to save our life, we can't rebound worth shit, and Amare is meant to be played at PF, not C. So as a panic move, they traded Shawn Marion in his prime, for an aging, slow, once-dominant center with health problems. Our perimeter defense was decent with Raja Bell and Shawn Marion holding things down, but now our perimeter defense is shot. It's completely and utterly non-existent. Guards and small forwards are raping us routinely, and there's nothing we can do about it. Our post defense has improved slightly, as has our rebounding, but these things mean little when you can't stop your smaller opponents from scoring at will.

I don't blame Shaq for any of this. Since arriving in Phoenix, he has put up good stats, better than most people expected out of him. For the most part, he's hustled, allowed Amare to dominate at the PF position, and overnight turned us from the worst rebounding team in the league, to arguably one of the best.

Like Jack White says, you can't take the effect and make it the cause. You don't lay the blame at the feet of the Big Saguaro when it seems like he's genuinely trying to fit in. The blame lies squarely at the foot of Robert Sarver, who has taken our chances of winning a title and defenestrated them. Subsequently, the Suns now have no chance of winning the championship this season, especially since Kurt Thomas is now in San Antonio, and Pau Gasol was giftwrapped and given to the Lakers for approximately the same worth that we got in return for Kurt.

Fucking A.

[Xylus]

Oh, and don't get me started on Mike Fucking D'Antoni.

[lurker]

If it makes you feel any better, so are the Mavericks.

[RonMexico]

You know that Mike would have benched you after the 2nd paragraph.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

What sucks harder about it is that even though I think the Suns were F'ed in the A largely by D'Antoni's uselessness (I was saying he was a piece of shit back when he won the COY award, and it wasn't just sour grapes) it will probably be Kerr who will end up with his neck in a noose if they don't get it done this year.

[ancestron]

I think the Suns will get it together man. There is too much talent on that team. Once they learn how to utilize Shaq more effectively, they will be fine. They are going through an adjustment period and while they may drop a bit in the standings, they will get it together. Those three losses were to elite western conference teams who are beating almost everyone lately, and one of the victories was against the best team in the East. Its too soon to throw in the towel if you ask me. But I can understand how this would be discouraging.

[monosylab1k]

If it makes you feel any better, so are the Mavericks.
you're a fucking idiot.

[monosylab1k]

as far as the Suns go, it's not looking good, but you can't expect instant chemistry out of this group. It may still take a few more weeks.

[Xylus]

I'm not giving up my Suns fandom or defecting to another team or anything like that, but I've lost faith in the idea that the Suns are a championship caliber team. You can't win if your defense is as atrocious as it's been in many years, but that's what happens when you trade away all your best defenders and draft picks.

The biggest problem isn't that the Suns won't win this year--what I'm truly concerned about is the future. The Suns have failed to make any solid draft picks since Barbosa (which was like 5 or 6 years ago, I can't remember), in favor of trading them away for cash. We have Shaq's $20-mil contract on the books for another two years, as well as Diaw's ridiculous $9-mil contract for even longer. We won't have the ability to contend until at least 2010, or longer.

[Xylus]

Not to mention the fact that Steve Nash is 34, Shaq is turning 36, Grant Hill is 35, Raja Bell is 31, and Amare's prime years will likely be wasted in this era.

[sribb43]

If it makes you feel any better, so are the Mavericks.

explain.....

[Jeremy]

I think the Suns will get it together man. There is too much talent on that team. Once they learn how to utilize Shaq more effectively, they will be fine.

I would agree, but the only thing that worries me is I don't know if D'antoni will figure out how to use Shaq more effectively. In fact, he's trying to make him change his game instead of letting him play the way he has in the past that has helped teams win championships.

[ancestron]

Nash still has a good 2-3 years don't you think? Shaq not so much....
Amare is still very young. Bottom line- need a new coach. The D'Antoni philosophy just doesn't work. Get someone in there to teach the guys HOW to defend, not just say...ok, now play better defense.

[mavsfan1000]

If it makes you feel any better, so are the Mavericks.
Please go back to lurking.

[Xylus]

Nash still has a good 2-3 years don't you think? Shaq not so much....
Amare is still very young. Bottom line- need a new coach. The D'Antoni philosophy just doesn't work. Get someone in there to teach the guys HOW to defend, not just say...ok, now play better defense.
Who would you suggest? I'm all for firing Mike D'Antoni right this instance, but I'm not sure who would be a suitable replacement.

[ancestron]

Larry Brown maybe?

[sribb43]

I would love to see JVG coach the suns and make them into a 85ppg team

[ancestron]

I would agree, but the only thing that worries me is I don't know if D'antoni will figure out how to use Shaq more effectively. In fact, he's trying to make him change his game instead of letting him play the way he has in the past that has helped teams win championships.

Thats true. D'Antoni is one stubborn ass mofo.

[Killakobe81]

I agree it's early but valid points are made. Rebounding the SUNS have become Much better and post defense i would say is better as well, (if someone chooses to bang with SHAQ) ...but no way if im the Spurs, JAzz, Lakers and dont get me started on GState or Hornets would I bang with Shaq ...i would run him ragged. Like we did, the hornets did and the Pistons. Shaq has played well but he is not mobile ...hell even LAST year the bulls ran him off the floor in the first round ... no way they win more than 1 round in the playoffs in this WEST ...

[mardigan]

I still think they just need time. They will get it figured out by the playoffs.
As far as Mike goes though, him playing Shaq over 30 minutes a game is truly making him look like the worst coach in the NBA. This team really needs to cut his minutes in half and give some other guys those minutes.

[Xylus]

I just don't think time will play much of a factor in ameliorating their defensive deficiencies, particularly on the perimeter.

[ThomasGranger]

Who would you suggest? I'm all for firing Mike D'Antoni right this instance, but I'm not sure who would be a suitable replacement.

Furious George will probably be looking for work after this season.

[TheNextGen]

Time wont do anything....these role players the suns have became "somebody's" because of the run and gun offense DAntoni had. They were able to take easy shots all day. Now that Shaq slows down the offense and clogs up the lane...the role players are back to being scrubs.

[mardigan]

Larry Brown wants back in the NBA. The Suns should make a run at him.

[mavsfan1000]

It's not so much as Shaq not fitting in as Phoenix lost their second best player. Amare only plays on one side of the court. Also Amare relies on the lane being open and Marion allowed for that to happen. Less fastbreak points as well since Marion liked to take off early for easy points. Diaw isn't a good enough shooter to replace Marion.

[stretch]

Rebounding the SUNS have become Much better

No it's not. Shaq is not that great of a rebounder, especially in comparison to Marion. Also, a lot of their rebounds were long rebounds that Marion would snag, that Shaq has no chance at.

[ancestron]

Jeff Van Gundy would probably fit well. He's a defense-first coach.

[Xylus]

It's not so much as Shaq not fitting in as Phoenix lost their second best player. Amare only plays on one side of the court. Also Amare relies on the lane being open and Marion allowed for that to happen. Less fastbreak points as well since Marion liked to take off early for easy points. Diaw isn't a good enough shooter to replace Marion.
The problem isn't Amare. He's averaging 30.6 pts, 9.0 reb, and 2.2 blk in the first 5 games of Shaq's career in Phoenix. What's missing is Marion's hustle, and his effort on the defensive end.

[mardigan]

No it's not. Shaq is not that great of a rebounder, especially in comparison to Marion. Also, a lot of their rebounds were long rebounds that Marion would snag, that Shaq has no chance at.
They have moved up like 9 spots in the rebounding ranks since they got Shaq, so he is helping them there.

[Xylus]

No it's not. Shaq is not that great of a rebounder, especially in comparison to Marion. Also, a lot of their rebounds were long rebounds that Marion would snag, that Shaq has no chance at.
Statistically, the Suns have improved greatly on the boards since Shaq arrived.

[Radiosparks]

You can't win if your defense is as atrocious as it's been in many years

Exactly, if you look at the Nuggets who up until a month ago were in a good position and climbing. Now, there non-existence defense has them falling out and may miss the playoffs.

[baseline bum]

D'Antoni is awful and should be fired immediately. Rick Carlisle would be my first choice if I was running the Suns.

[TheNextGen]

The problem isn't Amare. He's averaging 30.6 pts, 9.0 reb, and 2.2 blk in the first 5 games of Shaq's career in Phoenix. What's missing is Marion's hustle, and his effort on the defensive end.

I think it is Amare...every PF is getting isolations on Amare. He cant defend...he thinks scoring more makes up for his lack defense.

[ducks]

the one good think is steve kerr can blame the coach and fire him this year.............

[Findog]

http://www.mavsmoneyball.com/story/2008/2/27/234914/751

Keep in mind the Suns have played 4 out of 5 games against elite teams since Shaq resumed playing, while the Mavericks have played 3 out of 4 games against the dregs of the League:



While it is still very early to measure the impact of Jason Kidd on the Mavericks and Shaquille O'Neil on the Suns, it is certainly not too soon to see if there are any early trends to pick up on. Two of the most important to use in gauging progress are offensive and defensive efficiency. Let's take a look at how the teams have changed using these broad but important measures.

By the way, I'm not a statistician, so I couldn't find any splits for efficiency pre- and post-trade, so let's just look at a less accurate but still relevant comparison: The efficiency stats to date (including Shaq's and Kidd's games) versus a general average of their efficiency since the new players joined each team. Stats are courtesy knickerblogger.com.

Offense

Phoenix already had a dominant offense before Shaq arrived, so it is not at all a problem if their offense hasn't improved with him in the line-up. In fact, their offense is so dominant that the Suns would probably have welcomed a slight decrease in their offensive production for a big improvement in their defense. So what happened?

Their offensive efficiency this year is 114.9, which ranks them No. 1 in the NBA by a wide margin. In the games since Shaq joined the team, the Suns efficiency looks like this: 122.8, 89.5, 90.5, 128.3, 104.0. So we have two very good games, a poor game, and two very poor games. This averages out to 107, which is a significant drop off in offensive performance.

Again, it is early, but the Suns offense certainly is looking like it took a hit with the departure of Shawn Marion and the arrival of Shaq.

The Mavericks offense for the year has been good, but not at all in Phoenix's class. In terms of efficiency, the Mavericks have a 112.5 efficiency, good for eighth in the league. But how have they been since Kidd arrived? Here are the numbers: 102.2, 106.5, 110.0, 102.0. The average over these games is 105.2.

So in what is probably a surprise to most people, the Mavs offense has gotten worse with Kidd in the line-up to a degree almost as much as the Suns offense has gotten worse with Shaq in the line-up. There are a lot of reasons for this, from the absolutely wretched performance of Josh Howard to the turnovers, but the bottom line may be tough to accept at this point, but it is true: Up to this point, the Mavericks with Kidd in the line-up are simply not as good on offense as they were when Harris was in the line-up. By the way, this certainly lends credence to Wes' point in an earlier post that Dirk's not getting easier shots, he's simply more focused.

Defense

Of course offense is only half the game. I am certain that coach Avery Johnson would gladly sacrifice some offense for a significant improvement in his team's defense, which has been mediocre at best this year. Has Kidd (and Shaq) sparked an improvement on the defensive side of the ball?

For Phoenix this is a critical question. Their athletic team has been able to overcome systemic defensive shortcomings in the past, but they just traded away their single best (and athletic) defender. Will Shaq's presence in the paint more than make up for this? Well, Suns fans, I'm afraid not.

Currently, the Suns defensive efficiency stands at 108.2, which is No. 15 in the NBA. The defense since Shaq has started playing has been absolutely dismal. Here are the numbers (lower is better): 128.7, 81.1, 122.1, 114.1, 121.2. Outside of the Celtics game, the Suns defense has been dramatically worse.

To put this in perspective, the average over those games is 113.4. The worst defense in the NBA belongs to the Knicks with a defensive efficiency of 113.1, and the Suns are worse than that.

It is a spectacularly different story in Dallas. In what I consider a surprise of monumental proportions, Kidd's impact on the team has been overwhelmingly on the defensive side. For the year, the Mavericks defensive efficiency stands at 107.0, around tenth in the league, and about as good as they've done for the season. How has the defense looked with Kidd on the team? Here are the numbers: 114.3, 90.2, 92.2, 94.0.

Outside of Kidd's debut against New Orleans, the Mavericks defense has been spectacular. Their efficiency with Kidd, even including New Orleans, is roughly 97.7. To put this in perspective, the best defense in the league currently belongs to Boston with an efficiency of 100.1. The defense with Kidd is a magnitude better than that.

The Bottom Line

So the real story with Kidd is that his presence has created a more fluid but significantly less efficient offense but has also led to a completely dominant defense. Somehow, I think Avery Johnson feels this is a welcome trade-off. For the Suns, they face the rather depressing situation where Shaq has significantly hurt their offense and absolutely cratered their defense.

[ElNono]

The team is built for outscoring opponents. Not to match them up. That's the coach philosophy aswell. Nash can't guard anybody. Amare can't guard the elite bigs in the league. The basic premise is that they're both going to offset the defensive side with what they produce on offense. But then Amare gets loaded with fouls, and thus can't produce on the other end, and it all goes down from there. Marion used to make up a bit from that, being able to run and being so athletic. But with Shaq, that's gone.
And the biggest hurdle is that the coach still wants the play the same way. He won't go to Shaq on the post on a regular basis. He wants Shaq to play pick and roll with Nash to free Amare. Works for Amare, but the rest of the team is dead cold. Plus if Shaq happens to get the ball anywhere near the rim, they foul him, since he's such an atrocious free throw shooter.
I think the real solution to this team is to let D'Antoni go. Find somebody a bit more defensive minded. The pieces are there: Raja Bell is a good perimeter defender, and Grant Hill has shown he can play some defense too. Make people responsible for missing defensive assignments. Play the game inside-out.
I just think D'Antoni still believes in the whole 'saving the NBA' bullcrap and he won't give in.

[mardigan]

The team is built for outscoring opponents. Not to match them up. That's the coach philosophy aswell. Nash can't guard anybody. Amare can't guard the elite bigs in the league. The basic premise is that they're both going to offset the defensive side with what they produce on offense. But then Amare gets loaded with fouls, and thus can't produce on the other end, and it all goes down from there. Marion used to make up a bit from that, being able to run and being so athletic. But with Shaq, that's gone.
And the biggest hurdle is that the coach still wants the play the same way. He won't go to Shaq on the post on a regular basis. He wants Shaq to play pick and roll with Nash to free Amare. Works for Amare, but the rest of the team is dead cold. Plus if Shaq happens to get the ball anywhere near the rim, they foul him, since he's such an atrocious free throw shooter.
I think the real solution to this team is to let D'Antoni go. Find somebody a bit more defensive minded. The pieces are there: Raja Bell is a good perimeter defender, and Grant Hill has shown he can play some defense too. Make people responsible for missing defensive assignments. Play the game inside-out.
I just think D'Antoni still believes in the whole 'saving the NBA' bullcrap and he won't give in.
I completely agree with you, D'Antoni is a horrible coach who doesnt know how to adapt or adjust.

[sribb43]

http://www.mavsmoneyball.com/story/2008/2/27/234914/751

Keep in mind the Suns have played 4 out of 5 games against elite teams since Shaq resumed playing, while the Mavericks have played 3 out of 4 games against the dregs of the League:

well there is one defensive comparison that we can make between the two teams...

Suns gave up 113 points to the Grizz (Gay 14-27 fg, 36 pts)
Mavs gave up 83 points to the Grizz (Gay 5-15 fg, 18 points)

thats 30 less points

[Jeremy]

Well, Mike D'antoni kept saying earlier this year that Marion was able to guard five players. I guess maybe he really did guard five players. Heh.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Xylus, you were always one of the classiest Suns fans on this board and I feel bad for you because I'm sure you guys have been itching for a ring for years and stuff like this must really kill you.


Is it just me or is nobody doubling Shaq anymore? I think this is a much bigger issue than the Suns trying to play more in a half court. I would assume Kerr was trading Marion for Shaq because he hoped Shaq would continue to demand double teams to open the floor up for the outside shooters a la' Duncan.

This hasn't seemed to be happening. I also give Xylus props on not blaming Shaq for all the Suns problems, because like he said, Shaq is making a genuine effort, and his stats are about as good as you could hope for a 36 year old center.

I just think talks about the suns roster with marion and banks was so far off from making a serious title run that they had to sacrifice one of their biggest assets for an over the hill shaq.

Even if Marion was to leave in the offseason, you're trying to tell me no serious FA would wanna come play with Nash and the Suns in what is probably the most exciting offense in the league? Hell, Brent Barry nearly went to the Suns based on the "fun factor" alone.

Last year, without the suspensions, who knows what would've happened. The Spurs usually have the Suns number, but it wasn't like we swept them or anything.

2005 the Suns were the #1 seed, but in fairness to them, Joe Johnson was out for most of the WCF.

2006, they had no Amare.


I just think the make up of the Suns team pre-Shaq wasn't perfect by any means, but they definitely weren't going to get swept in the first round or anything.

The Kurt Thomas trade onward definitely was the beginning of a series of mis management.


And yeah, I haven't even gotten started on Mike D either.

[td4mvp21]

well there is one defensive comparison that we can make between the two teams...

Suns gave up 113 points to the Grizz (Gay 14-27 fg, 36 pts)
Mavs gave up 83 points to the Grizz (Gay 5-15 fg, 18 points)

thats 30 less points

The Mavs are 10 X better on defense than the Suns, not too surprising.

[ancestron]

Shaq's free throw ineptitude is really killing them, I will agree with that.

[ChumpDumper]

Props on the use of "defenestrated."

[san antonio spurs]

Unlike some, I still consider Kerr to be a spurs' legend. He's always been a clutch spur and obviously he still is. He was sent over by Pop to destruct the Suns hope and he's doing quite a good job. :lol

Now if only Avery could learn from Kerr, Ferry and presti. :pctoss

[Purple & Gold]

You guys were fucked with or without this trade. At least you can rebound the ball now. Raja needs to step up and do something offensively, the offense doesn't work without that 3 point threat. And wtf with D'antoni putting Shaq in the high post all the time. It's just stupid he's a horrible coach. As for Nash as good as he is offensively, he is horrible on defense. I love seeing every team just take it to Nash everytime. Just run your offense through whoever he's guarding. They might have to think about running a zone or something, that's how terrible their defense is. Nash definitely needs to stay in front of his man. No way they can do anything, with him allowing his man to go the hole everytime.

[Cry Havoc]

The Suns should start running a zone defense NOW. There is NO reason not to.

[RonMexico]

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/articles/0225coachroundtable.html

[Cry Havoc]

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/articles/0225coachroundtable.html

Q: What's been your best coaching moment?

D'Antoni: "Every team has something that you're really proud of. But when you get a team that really plays well together, whether you win or lose, that's what you're most proud of. They're unselfish, and they're playing basketball the way you think it should be played."

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao :lmao:lmao:lmao

Great moment, D'Antoni. How about the time you said, "Let's go get 'em!"?

[RonMexico]

You play to win the game, Mike.

[Purple & Gold]

The Suns should start running a zone defense NOW. There is NO reason not to.

I agree. They will go back to getting crushed on the boards again, but at least they can get some offensive boards now. They really have no choice. Their defense is that bad.

[Jeremy]

Is it just me or is nobody doubling Shaq anymore? I think this is a much bigger issue than the Suns trying to play more in a half court. I would assume Kerr was trading Marion for Shaq because he hoped Shaq would continue to demand double teams to open the floor up for the outside shooters a la' Duncan.

This hasn't seemed to be happening.

That's because stubborn D'antoni won't let Shaq play in the low post. Who's gonna double him far away from the hoop?


Even if Marion was to leave in the offseason, you're trying to tell me no serious FA would wanna come play with Nash and the Suns in what is probably the most exciting offense in the league?

Yes, of course they would. But if Marion had walked away in the offseason, the Suns still would have been right around the Salary Cap--we would not have been able to sign any big Free Agents. That's how much we are above the salary cap, even without Kurt Thomas' contract. So if Marion had walked, we would have been left with nothing--except whoever would have been willing to come here for the MLE.

[K-State Spur]

I would agree, but the only thing that worries me is I don't know if D'antoni will figure out how to use Shaq more effectively. In fact, he's trying to make him change his game instead of letting him play the way he has in the past that has helped teams win championships.

Part of that is that Shaq is no longer capable of playing the way he did that won championships. People think its amazing that he is blowing all these lay-ups of late - well he's always struggled with his touch around the hoop, but he used to just dunk over the top everybody, so it didn't matter.

[rAm]

the suns were good with their way of style, but they reached their max potential with that type of game plan. Now by changing that game plan by adding one piece hurt them exponentially because no they are a lesser version of their old style and not enough defense to make up for it.

They are lost somewhere in between and it will not translate into a championship.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

That's because stubborn D'antoni won't let Shaq play in the low post. Who's gonna double him far away from the hoop?



Yes, of course they would. But if Marion had walked away in the offseason, the Suns still would have been right around the Salary Cap--we would not have been able to sign any big Free Agents. That's how much we are above the salary cap, even without Kurt Thomas' contract. So if Marion had walked, we would have been left with nothing--except whoever would have been willing to come here for the MLE.


thanks for clarifying, I figured with Marion coming off the books after this season they would've had a lot more money to play around with, but apparently not.

[Extra Stout]

But when you get a team that really plays well together, whether you win or lose, that's what you're most proud of. They're unselfish, and they're playing basketball the way you think it should be played."
Now, playing basketball the way he thinks it should be played might be a colossal failure in terms of outscoring opponents in the playoffs, but at least it suits his effeminate sense of aesthetics. Hands on those hips, Mikey!

[21_Blessings]

If it makes you feel any better, so are the Mavericks.

If it makes you feel any better, so are the Spurs once they see the Lakers in a playoff series.

[BillsCarnage]

Or... "The Phoenix Suns, Phucking Suck."

Xylus, you gotta get up pretty early to trump the Carnage..

I've been saying that since Dec buddy!. Prior to the Shaq trade.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83981&highlight=F-U-C-K-E-D

Now they're just the "Great Unknown".. :lol :lol

[ATRAIN]

Da_suns_fan has been MIA hahaha, what a loser!!

[2centsworth]

If it makes you feel any better, so are the Spurs once they see the Lakers in a playoff series.
that's our easiest matchup. Kurt will manhandle Gasol, Duncan wil dominate Bynum, Kobe will need 40 shots to score 30, and Manu and Tony will go buck wild.

That's sweep city and it's not even close.

[BonnerDynasty]

Not to mention the fact that Steve Nash is 34, Shaq is turning 36, Grant Hill is 35, Raja Bell is 31, and Amare's prime years will likely be wasted in this era.

Yet the media is still on your jock.

For Spurs, that would be old and slow.

Amazing how all of these teams finally realized they need vets and the media thinks its a sudden amazing revelation out of the blue. :nope

[Supergirl]

It is very interesting to me that Shaq has, as he said he would, made Amare a "better player" - but only offensively. Since Shaq's arrival Amare has played wonderfully on offense, yet the Suns are only 2-3. You wouldn't think a game where Amare scores 37 points would be a game the Suns would lose, except that - I think Shaq's presence has actually made the Suns WORSE offensively. He's notoriously lazy on defense, and as much as he brings some swagger in the locker room, that has an impact, too. And Amare was ALREADY on his way to being a lazy defender. So just because Shaq has made Amare better offensively, the Suns are now allowing their opponents to score more, and the loss of Marion means they don't have anyone who can really bother the other team's best scorer.

[mardigan]

How much has Marion helped the Heat btw?
Most overated played in the NBA

[sribb43]

explain.....

let me answer my own question.....

Because Avery Johnson is the coach

[ancestron]

How much has Marion helped the Heat btw?
Most overated played in the NBA

Remember the 05 west finals? Shawn Marion was practically invisible that whole series. With Joe Johnson hurt, the Suns really needed him, and instead he disappeared, especially defensively. Way to step it up there Shawn. I've always thought he was over-rated, not to mention selfish.

[SAGambler]

When the Grizz put up 113 on you, it is obvious there is no Defense to be found. Wasn't Shaq supposed to stop this? It appears to me that the one thing Shaq has been good at is slowing Amare down. He's become Shaqs walking buddy as they amble back to the defensive end of the court.

I was really hoping the Spurs would get the chance to take em out again, but it's beginning to look more and more like the Suns could struggle just to stay in the playoff picture.

And if they somehow manage to slip that far, Kerr will be looking for a job next year.

[Xylus]

When the Grizz put up 113 on you, it is obvious there is no Defense to be found. Wasn't Shaq supposed to stop this? It appears to me that the one thing Shaq has been good at is slowing Amare down. He's become Shaqs walking buddy as they amble back to the defensive end of the court.

I was really hoping the Spurs would get the chance to take em out again, but it's beginning to look more and more like the Suns could struggle just to stay in the playoff picture.

And if they somehow manage to slip that far, Kerr will be looking for a job next year.
Shaq was supposed to bolster our interior defense, taking some of the slack off of Amare when facing opponents like Yao, Bynum, Duncan, etc. So far, it appears that he's done that. Like I said, it's the perimeter defense that's taken a hit. The opponent's backcourt is having their way with us, because we can no longer hide Steve Nash on D.

[baseline bum]

Remember the 05 west finals? Shawn Marion was practically invisible that whole series. With Joe Johnson hurt, the Suns really needed him, and instead he disappeared, especially defensively. Way to step it up there Shawn. I've always thought he was over-rated, not to mention selfish.

It's not like it happened for no reason. Without Bowen, he prob goes nuts on us the way he always did on Dallas.

[td4mvp21]

Shaq was supposed to bolster our interior defense, taking some of the slack off of Amare when facing opponents like Yao, Bynum, Duncan, etc. So far, it appears that he's done that. Like I said, it's the perimeter defense that's taken a hit. The opponent's backcourt is having their way with us, because we can no longer hide Steve Nash on D.

Parker and Ginobili should love that :hungry:

[Xylus]

Parker and Ginobili should love that :hungry:
With Marion gone, I think Bell will be guarding Parker, while Hill will guard Ginobili. I'm not quite sure if Bell is quick enough to guard Parker, but Hill should do a decent job on Ginobili (as decent as one can against a beast like Ginobili).

But yeah, with Marion gone, Ginobili and Parker might have their way with us.

[whottt]

you're a fucking idiot.


The first step to getting better is admitting you have a problem. While denial is a completely natural human response to tragedy, and shock is the ID's way of coping with the uncopable, and while both of these functions of the human brain can alleviate the pain and frustration of being faced with an utterly hopeless situation, eventually these psychological constructs will have to be faced and overcome for Mav fan to properly
















REALIZE IT"S FUCKING OVER


and move on to other aspects of their life.



Because their basketball team isn't going to be doing JACK SHIT for a while.

[Xylus]

The first step to getting better is admitting you have a problem. While denial is a completely natural human response to tragedy, and shock is the ID's way of coping with the uncopable, and while both of these functions of the human brain can alleviate the pain and frustration of being faced with an utterly hopeless situation, eventually these psychological constructs will have to be faced and overcome for Mav fan to properly
















REALIZE IT"S FUCKING OVER


and move on to other aspects of their life.



Because their basketball team isn't going to be doing JACK SHIT for a while.
Your team won by a FG. At home.

Get over yourself.

[td4mvp21]

With Marion gone, I think Bell will be guarding Parker, while Hill will guard Ginobili. I'm not quite sure if Bell is quick enough to guard Parker, but Hill should do a decent job on Ginobili (as decent as one can against a beast like Ginobili).

But yeah, with Marion gone, Ginobili and Parker might have their way with us.

Hopefully Bell won't closeline him.


In all seriousness, if Parker will have Bell on him, he should opt not to shoot midrange jumpers and attack the paint. Ginobili should be ok against Hill, won't necessarily torch him but won't get shutdown against him either.

[Xylus]

Hopefully Bell won't closeline him.


In all seriousness, if Parker will have Bell on him, he should opt not to shoot midrange jumpers and attack the paint. Ginobili should be ok against Hill, won't necessarily torch him but won't get shutdown against him either.
Those are my thoughts, as well.

As for clotheslining, I'd like to see Bell take Phil Jackson down.

[Agloco]

That's because stubborn D'antoni won't let Shaq play in the low post. Who's gonna double him far away from the hoop?

Yes, of course they would. But if Marion had walked away in the offseason, the Suns still would have been right around the Salary Cap--we would not have been able to sign any big Free Agents. That's how much we are above the salary cap, even without Kurt Thomas' contract. So if Marion had walked, we would have been left with nothing--except whoever would have been willing to come here for the MLE.


Who's gonna double him at all?

[whottt]

Your team won by a FG. At home.

Get over yourself.


Who are you, his mother?


In any case...shouldn't you be bitching about your own team? I suggest you get back to doing just that so I can get back to helping this Mav fan come to grips with reality.

[Xylus]

Who are you, his mother?


In any case...shouldn't you be bitching about your own team? I suggest you get back to doing just that so I can get back helping this Mav fan come to grips with reality.
I'm not mono's mother, but I'm this thread's daddy, and I'd rather you didn't hijack it with your unjustified trashtalk.

[whottt]

:lol @ you not wanting a thread hijacked at ST


Next guy that pulls that one off will be the first...


Oh, and I don't agree...The Suns aren't fucked, you just don't know shit about basketball.

But by all means...pass summary judgement after 2-3 games all you like.


You hate the loss of your own softness :lol

[E20]

This was pretty much predicted by a number of people here. Shaq on the Suns is like mixing Water with Oil, there is no way it would be a homogenous solution. If Shaq were much younger and had what he had then yes, but a 6464 year old Shaq who has no atheltic ability and calls for the same kind of defensive attention as I do isn't gonna put Phoneix over the top. No matter what Shaq says about motivation.

[Xylus]

:lol @ you not wanting a thread hijacked at ST


Next guy that pulls that one off will be the first...
I'm a trendsetter.



Oh, and I don't agree...The Suns aren't fucked, you just don't know shit about basketball.

But by all means...pass summary judgement after 2 games all you like.
It sounds like you didn't read the original post at all, when I said that the Suns fucked themselves over when they traded Kurt Thomas, which happened more than 60 games ago. I don't think that's a knee-jerk reaction or a rush to judgment; it's more of a culmination of several factors that led me to this conclusion.

[td4mvp21]

Those are my thoughts, as well.

As for clotheslining, I'd like to see Bell take Phil Jackson down.

Now that would be funny :lol

[T Park]

I'm all for clotheslining Phil Jackson.