McCain cannot be president

[Wild Cobra]

I never knew this before, but John McCain likely cannot be president. He is not a "Natural Born Citizen" as called out in Article II of the constitution. Why this hasn't been brought up until today is a mystery to me.

Several law findings conclude that natural born means born in the USA. To me, it is simple. McCain is not a native born citizen. I think in a case like his, it is ridiculous. However, I have a daughter born in an Army hospital in Germany. I was told she could never be president!

This could cause some serious issues. If you are a McCain or republican supporter in general, imagine this. He gets the presidential election, then the democrats bring on a court case and win, making him ineligible. What happens then?

I think in cases like this, the native born should include citizens born in other countries who were there because of military duty of the parents. Still, I will take this technicality is it means Huckabee will become the nominee over McCain. This part of the constitution should be changed. However, it is hard to dispute the black and white of the constitution, and it is the supreme law of the land.

[Nbadan]

TITLE 8 > CHAPTER 12 > SUBCHAPTER III > Part I > § 1403

§ 1403. Persons born in the Canal Zone or Republic of Panama on or after February 26,
1904
(a) Any person born in the Canal Zone on or after February 26, 1904, and whether before or after the effective date of this chapter, whose father or mother or both at the time of the birth of such person was or is a citizen of the United States, is declared to be a citizen of the United States.

(b) Any person born in the Republic of Panama on or after February 26, 1904, and whether before or after the effective date of this chapter, whose father or mother or both at the time of the birth of such person was or is a citizen of the United States employed by the Government of the United States or by the Panama Railroad Company, or its successor in title, is declared to be a citizen of the United States.

Link (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001403----000-.html)

[ChumpDumper]

However, I have a daughter born in an Army hospital in Germany. I was told she could never be president!That's because she's female.

[Wild Cobra]

Chump, why are you being a troll?

Dan, there is a distinction between "natural born citizen" and "citizen". Arnold Schwarzenegger is a citizen, yet he is not natural born to the USA and cannot be elected president without a constitutional change. Law does not supercede the constitution.


Article II section 1 Clause 5:

Qualifications for office

No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

[ChumpDumper]

Nobody raised the question when Mitt's dad ran, so precedent is firmly on McCain's side.
Chump, why are you being a troll? Fuck you, that's why.

[Wild Cobra]

Nobody raised the question when Mitt's dad ran, so precedent is firmly on McCain's side. Fuck you, that's why.
You are such a troublemaker at times, I'm surprised you haven't been banned.

Yes, George Romney and Barry Goldwater both ran for president, and are not natural born US citizens. I fail to understand why this was allowed. Today with modern information systems, it is easily seen. In their days before the internet, it is understandable that it could go unnoticed for Romney and Goldwater.

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah, how could anyone have known Mexico wasn't part of the United States back then? They didn't even have basic cable.

[word]

You are such a troublemaker at times, I'm surprised you haven't been banned.

Yes, George Romney and Barry Goldwater both ran for president, and are not natural born US citizens. I fail to understand why this was allowed. Today with modern information systems, it is easily seen. In their days before the internet, it is understandable that it could go unnoticed for Romney and Goldwater.

It did not go 'unnoticed' for Goldwater. It went to the US Supreme Court and they ruled he was eligible to be president of the US.

[Holt's Cat]

McCain was born by C-section?

[Mr. Peabody]

Mr. McCain is not the first person to find himself in these circumstances. The last Arizona Republican to be a presidential nominee, Barry Goldwater, faced the issue. He was born in the Arizona territory in 1909, three years before it became a state. But Goldwater did not win, and the view at the time was that since he was born in a continental territory that later became a state, he probably met the standard.

It also surfaced in the 1968 candidacy of George Romney, who was born in Mexico, but again was not tested. The former Connecticut politician Lowell P. Weicker Jr., born in Paris, sought a legal analysis when considering the presidency, an aide said, and was assured he was eligible. Franklin D. Roosevelt Jr. was once viewed as a potential successor to his father, but was seen by some as ineligible since he had been born on Campobello Island in Canada. The 21st president, Chester A. Arthur, whose birthplace is Vermont, was rumored to have actually been born in Canada, prompting some to question his eligibility.

Quickly recognizing confusion over the evolving nature of citizenship, the First Congress in 1790 passed a measure that did define children of citizens “born beyond the sea, or out of the limits of the United States to be natural born.” But that law is still seen as potentially unconstitutional and was overtaken by subsequent legislation that omitted the “natural-born” phrase.

Mr. McCain’s citizenship was established by statutes covering the offspring of Americans abroad and laws specific to the Canal Zone as Congress realized that Americans would be living and working in the area for extended periods. But whether he qualifies as natural-born has been a topic of Internet buzz for months, with some declaring him ineligible while others assert that he meets all the basic constitutional qualifications — a natural-born citizen at least 35 years of age with 14 years of residence.

“I don’t think he has any problem whatsoever,” said Mr. Nickles, a McCain supporter. “But I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if somebody is going to try to make an issue out of it. If it goes to court, I think he will win.”

Lawyers who have examined the topic say there is not just confusion about the provision itself, but uncertainty about who would have the legal standing to challenge a candidate on such grounds, what form a challenge could take and whether it would have to wait until after the election or could be made at any time.

In a paper written 20 years ago for the Yale Law Journal on the natural-born enigma, Jill Pryor, now a lawyer in Atlanta, said that any legal challenge to a presidential candidate born outside national boundaries would be “unpredictable and unsatisfactory.”

“If I were on the Supreme Court, I would decide for John McCain,” Ms. Pryor said in a recent interview. “But it is certainly not a frivolous issue.”

[TheProfessor]

McCain was born by C-section?
He was from his mother's womb untimely ripped.

This is only an issue now because he actually has the nomination in hand. It's been brought up before and dismissed.

[MannyIsGod]

:lol

Have we no common sense?

This is ridiculousness at its best (worst?)

[boutons_]

Goldwater, born in the AZ "terrritory" (before statehood), was "natural born" back in 1964.

Nobody but WC, our Constitution prick scholar (it's short and sweet), cares. The right-packed SCOTUS would of course never disqualify InSaine as un-naturally born.

There are much easier ways to destroy InSaine than his birthplace. In fact, InSaine will sing Bomb-Bomb-Bomb-iran and talk about Iraq-for-ever into over overwhelming defeat, self-destroyed.

A large majority of Americans now think Iraq was/is a mistake and they want the US out of Iraq, sooner rather than later.

[clambake]

You are such a troublemaker at times, I'm surprised you haven't been banned.
not likely. you see, there's this dickhead that post all the time that said our soldiers died because they opposed the war. absolute ignorance can't even get you banned, but look who i'm telling.

[boutons_]

McCain's disqualification as un-natural is what's keeping Huck wasting Hucks' time and (other peoples') money? God will come down and smite McCain with a copy of the Constituion.

[FromWayDowntown]

This seems like a ridiculous issue. There's a fundamental difference between someone born of American parents in a geographical area defined as American territory and someone born of alien parents in an alien territory. The concern that the Constitutional provision seeks to protect against the possibility that those who are actually loyal to a foreign government might assume the highest office in the land and compromise national security or other interests by that alien loyalty. That's not a problem for someone in McCain's situation.

For what it's worth, technically, George Washington wasn't born in the United States of America, nor were other early Presidents -- they were born British subjects in British territory.

[Oh, Gee!!]

troll forum

[Spurminator]

There is no concern whatsoever that the Democrats would bring a court case to take McCain out of office.

I'm guessing this is a hot topic on the Pundit Circuit right now, and the only reason is ultra-conservatives can't stand McCain. They're just trying to position this in a way that still makes Democrats look like evil blood suckers waiting in the shadows to pounce if Republicans make the horrible mistake of choosing John McCain. Two birds, one stone.

Republican talking points have gotten so transparent these days.

[DarkReign]

Non-issue, IMO.

To me, youre American when youre born to American (citizen) parents. I dont give a fuck if its Uruguay.

Now, born and raised in Uruguay is a debateable topic. But seeing as McCain was born elsewhere and raised in America by American (citizen) parents, this is all bullshit in my mind.

[Spurminator]

And you know what? If I was a Republican and I thought electing McCain would cause the Democrats to go on a crusade to remove him from office, I'd say bring it on... because that kind of thing would piss off a lot of moderates and the Democrats stand to lose a lot more than they have to gain from such a thing. It's not like a Democrat would suddenly get to be President.

[FromWayDowntown]

This could cause some serious issues. If you are a McCain or republican supporter in general, imagine this. He gets the presidential election, then the democrats bring on a court case and win, making him ineligible. What happens then?

I think in cases like this, the native born should include citizens born in other countries who were there because of military duty of the parents. Still, I will take this technicality is it means Huckabee will become the nominee over McCain. This part of the constitution should be changed. However, it is hard to dispute the black and white of the constitution, and it is the supreme law of the land.

Again, I don't think there's any problem with McCain's eligibility and I would be shocked if anyone chose to really challenge that issue in the event that McCain might win the election.

Should the hypothesized situation occur, there would be no question of anyone becoming the nominee, because the election would be over. If McCain were to win the election and then have his eligibility successfully challenged, the President-elect would, constitutionally be whomever was McCain's running mate. The same result would hold if McCain were to win election and then, before assuming office, be incapacitated or even (God forbid) assassinated. If only for that reason, it would be political suicide for the Democrats to challenge at that point in the process.

In the event that a challenge were mounted and concluded before the general election, I would presume that identifying a candidate would truly be a matter of party politics. I can't imagine that there would any reason that the Republicans would be compelled to nominate Huckabee in that situation.

[smeagol]

You are such a troublemaker at times, I'm surprised you haven't been banned.

Interesting fact: Chump used to be a mod. He is unbannable.

[ChumpDumper]

Was unbannable.

There just haven't been enough signatures on the petition to date.

[JoeChalupa]

I don't consider that trolling.

[JoeChalupa]

In a bad way that is.

[smeagol]

Was unbannable.

You still are. You are powerful around these places.


There just haven't been enough signatures on the petition to date.

Mouse and all his trolls was not enough . . . :lol

[Holt's Cat]

Of course it would be a great idea to argue that the son of a military man who was born outside of the US on a military installation due to the fact that his father was stationed there cannot run for president.

[PixelPusher]

I was born overseas in a military hospital. It was explained to me that the soil beneath the delivery room was legally designated "American Soil" for the purposes of naturalization. Is this correct?

[boutons_]

"Soil beneath the delivery room was legally designated "American Soil" '

I know embassy and supra-national orgs like OEDC and UN buildings are sovereign, as are their cars (CD on license plates is "corps diplomatique", park anywhere, don't get ticketed). Probably true for military bases occupying foreign soil.

That's why the Iranians violating the US soil of the US embassy in Tehran was really a casus belli. We still owe the Iranians for that one, but of course we also owe the Iranians for destroying their democracy and installing the west-friendly/oil-friendly Shah in the 50s.

McCain's birth/qualification is exactly the kind of inane side-show the media likes to run with, for 15 minutes.

His militarism is a much bigger problem. And in general, for a 72 year old, or maybe because he's so old, it sure seems like it makes up a lot of shit on the spot as he goes along, forgetting/contradicting the shit he made up earlier.

ie, he's not serious person. He's still kind of half-cocked, frat-rat fly-boy, not so very different from the joker dubya.

[Extra Stout]

I never knew this before, but John McCain likely cannot be president. He is not a "Natural Born Citizen" as called out in Article II of the constitution. Why this hasn't been brought up until today is a mystery to me.

Several law findings conclude that natural born means born in the USA. To me, it is simple. McCain is not a native born citizen. I think in a case like his, it is ridiculous. However, I have a daughter born in an Army hospital in Germany. I was told she could never be president!

This could cause some serious issues. If you are a McCain or republican supporter in general, imagine this. He gets the presidential election, then the democrats bring on a court case and win, making him ineligible. What happens then?

I think in cases like this, the native born should include citizens born in other countries who were there because of military duty of the parents. Still, I will take this technicality is it means Huckabee will become the nominee over McCain. This part of the constitution should be changed. However, it is hard to dispute the black and white of the constitution, and it is the supreme law of the land.
"Natural born citizen" means citizen from birth. McCain was born a U.S. citizen to parents who were U.S. citizens. This is explicitly laid-out in 18th-century jurisprudence.

[Oh, Gee!!]

If my knowledge of the constitution is correct, then Dubya gets to be president again if McCain is elected.

[xrayzebra]

Everyone is worried about McCain. How bout the representative
from D.C. or does that count. Well it counts in some votes.

[xrayzebra]

"Soil beneath the delivery room was legally designated "American Soil" '

I know embassy and supra-national orgs like OEDC and UN buildings are sovereign, as are their cars (CD on license plates is "corps diplomatique", park anywhere, don't get ticketed). Probably true for military bases occupying foreign soil.

That's why the Iranians violating the US soil of the US embassy in Tehran was really a casus belli. We still owe the Iranians for that one, but of course we also owe the Iranians for destroying their democracy and installing the west-friendly/oil-friendly Shah in the 50s.

McCain's birth/qualification is exactly the kind of inane side-show the media likes to run with, for 15 minutes.

His militarism is a much bigger problem. And in general, for a 72 year old, or maybe because he's so old, it sure seems like it makes up a lot of shit on the spot as he goes along, forgetting/contradicting the shit he made up earlier.

ie, he's not serious person. He's still kind of half-cocked, frat-rat fly-boy, not so very different from the joker dubya.


So much for folks who read the political left blogs. Get
some knowledge and then come back and talk to me.

[Wild Cobra]

It did not go 'unnoticed' for Goldwater. It went to the US Supreme Court and they ruled he was eligible to be president of the US.
OK, that I didn't know. But I do know that Arizona was in the process of becoming a state then as it was soverign US territory under US law.

[Wild Cobra]

This seems like a ridiculous issue. There's a fundamental difference between someone born of American parents in a geographical area defined as American territory and someone born of alien parents in an alien territory. The concern that the Constitutional provision seeks to protect against the possibility that those who are actually loyal to a foreign government might assume the highest office in the land and compromise national security or other interests by that alien loyalty. That's not a problem for someone in McCain's situation.
I completely agree. However, that is not how the black and white of the constitution reads. Any legal challenge must take the text of the law, and not how someone feels about it. When you let that occur, it becomes judicial activism. Yes, other material is considered at times, but this is absolutely clear. "Natural born" specifically means born in the USA. Look in any antique unabridged dictionary


For what it's worth, technically, George Washington wasn't born in the United States of America, nor were other early Presidents -- they were born British subjects in British territory.
Correct, but technically nobody was during the adoption of the constitution. It did provide a provision because our founding fathers had very little ignorance compared to our politicians today.


Article II section 1 Clause 5:

Qualifications for office

No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

They stated things short and sweet, and very understandable to the common people with the usage of the English language at the time.

[Wild Cobra]

I was born overseas in a military hospital. It was explained to me that the soil beneath the delivery room was legally designated "American Soil" for the purposes of naturalization. Is this correct?
For legal citizenship, yes, it's automatic. It still isn't "natuaral born citizenship."

[Wild Cobra]

"Natural born citizen" means citizen from birth. McCain was born a U.S. citizen to parents who were U.S. citizens. This is explicitly laid-out in 18th-century jurisprudence.
No it doesn't. Show be some facts behind that. The dictionary definition does not support that conclusion. When you research the words in an antique dictionary, you find natural means native. Native specifically refers to the soil where you are born. It specifies words like city, state, nation, etc. It may have been deemed by law for purposes of citizenship, but it cannot override the highest law of the land.

[mikejones99]

the troll forum now requires secrets codes and social security numbers so mccain and the trolls must all be together :lol

[Wild Cobra]

but alberto gonzales said the constitution was "quaint"
Any point to that?

The first definition of quaint under wiktionary is "Having old-fashioned charm."

Now in my 1906 century:


Quaint, a. [OE. queint, coint, from OFr. coynt, coint, neat, fine, trim, dainty, from L. cognitus, known.]

1) Pleasantly odd and antique; singular; unusual; curious; fanciful; far-fetched; whimsical; affected.

2) (obsolete) Artificially elegant; ingeniously contrived; trim; pretty; neat; fine-spun; pleasant.

I would be curious what context he called it that, but it doesn't matter much as it does fit the constitution within a few of it's possible correct usages.

I like the first one from my dictionary. "pleasantly odd and antique." The second one also fits the constitution very well. "ingeniously contrived."

Was your statement suppose to be some king of a slam against Gonzales? If so, you should know the dictionary better.

I could pull out any of my several dictionaries, and the term is not going to vary much.

[Wild Cobra]

you sure know alot about dics
Only because I come across too many people like you.

Can you stay on topic, or do you need to go back to the children's forums?

[mikejones99]

Cobra will disappear in a few weeks when blazers are eliminated

[mikejones99]

looks like steve kerr ^

[Extra Stout]

No it doesn't. Show be some facts behind that. The dictionary definition does not support that conclusion. When you research the words in an antique dictionary, you find natural means native. Native specifically refers to the soil where you are born. It specifies words like city, state, nation, etc. It may have been deemed by law for purposes of citizenship, but it cannot override the highest law of the land.


William Blackstone (the de facto expert on classical interpretations of 18th-century English common law, interpretations which were adapted into the United States Constitution), 1765:

"When I say, that an alien is one who is born out of the king's dominions, or allegiance, this also must be understood with some restrictions. The common law indeed stood absolutely so; with only a very few exceptions: so that a particular act of parliament became necessary after the restoration, for the naturalization of children of his majesty's English subjects, born in foreign countries during the late troubles. And this maxim of the law proceeded upon a general principle, that every man owes natural allegiance where he is born, and cannot owe two such allegiances, or serve two masters, at once. Yet the children of the king's embassadors born abroad were always held to be natural subjects: for as the father, though in a foreign country, owes not even a local allegiance to the prince to whom he is sent; so, with regard to the son also, he was held (by a kind of postliminium) to be born under the king of England's allegiance, represented by his father, the embassador. To encourage also foreign commerce, it was enacted by statute 25 Edw. III. st. 2. that all children born abroad, provided both their parents were at the time of the birth in allegiance to the king, and the mother had passed the seas by her husband's consent, might inherit as if born in England: and accordingly it hath been so adjudged in behalf of merchants. But by several more modern statutes these restrictions are still farther taken off: so that all children, born out of the king's ligeance, whose fathers were natural-born subjects, are now natural-born subjects themselves, to all intents and purposes, without any exception; unless their said fathers were attainted, or banished beyond sea, for high treason; or were then in the service of a prince at enmity with Great Britain."

Jacob Giles, The Common Laq, Common plac'd, 1733:

"The Children of Embassadors in a foreign Country, are natural born Subjects, and not Aliens."

Those are the definitive commentaries on the 18th-century definition of "natural-born" in Anglo-American jurisprudence. Let the record note that your assertion is unequivocally disproven, and the matter settled in my favor.

[Wild Cobra]

William Blackstone (the de facto expert on classical interpretations of 18th-century English common law, interpretations which were adapted into the United States Constitution), 1765:

etc. etc...

This is a good find. It looks like I may be wrong on this issue as long as the reference is valid. I see no reason up front to believe it isn't. Common law is recognized as law of the time unless otherwise contradicted. This would explain why it hasn't gone to court, or serious discussion now, and with Romney.

I acknowledged I think such a thing is wrong when it comes to my original posting. Here is my last sentence from my first posting:


I think in cases like this, the native born should include citizens born in other countries who were there because of military duty of the parents. Still, I will take this technicality if it means Huckabee will become the nominee over McCain. This part of the constitution should be changed. However, it is hard to dispute the black and white of the constitution, and it is the supreme law of the land.

It also explains the distinction where my daughter cannot become president. Although she was deemed a citizen at birth, her mother was not a citizen. Part of that quote was "provided both their parents were at the time of the birth in allegiance to the king."

[clambake]

hey, wc, how come you never looked up "deliberately misleading"?

[xrayzebra]

Since when does the Constitution have any relevance?
Has anyone checked the international law on the subject. You
know like our Supreme Court does. The world court is the
place we need to be looking.

[xrayzebra]

the rumors of the supreme court citing international law in decisions are highly ridiculous and overblown


yes, some justices have referred to international law to provide context. not precedent

You care to expand on your statement. Context vs
precedent?

[clambake]

context=purely for comparison
precedent=for setting record.