The 'Fair Tax' - The Mother of all Dumb Ideas..

[Nbadan]

The Mother of All Dumb Ideas
By David Glenn Cox


We’ve all had dumb ideas in our past and I don’t exempt myself from this. I once threw Gunk engine degreaser on the floor to degrease it. Just one thing, I forgot to turn off the pilot light on the water heater first. Dumb? Man, that was dumb. After I got the fire put out my boss asked me, "Did you learn anything today?" I slowly shook my head and humbly answered, "Yes, yes I did."

But my mistake was an error, not of comprehension but of not planning before acting. These are simple mistakes and we’ve all made them and usually they don’t require the fire department to correct them. We lock our keys in the car or give our keys to the spouse and forget to get them back.

On a grander scope are the errors that our mothers once advised about, "Look before you leap" and "All that glitters is not gold." I pointed out my own errors here because I’m going to point out the error of others. There’s errors and then there are mistakes and then there’s just plain stupid.

I speak of none other than the so-called "Fair Tax." The mother of all dumb ideas, there are no errors of any consequence in the world today compared to the "Fair Tax." George W. Bush has the intellect of Chomsky and the oratory skills of Churchill when compared to the "Fair Tax." But, don’t you see? It’s fair! No, it’s not, it’s a farce!

A tax plan where you pay a 27% federal sales tax on all retail purchases. Your paycheck will be free of all deductions except for health insurance and, of course, your state withholding but this bullshit bamboozle is a bait and switch scam.

Proponents lead you to believe your paycheck will be all yours, free and clear, but it’s a lie and no, it won’t. Nor will the 27% federal sales tax free you from any city, county or state sales taxes, which, here in Cobb County, Georgia, is 7% so we are up to 34% right off the bat.

$100.00 worth of groceries will cost $134.00, times 52 = $1768 in sales tax per year. Now, if you have a family, it’s hard to get by on less than $150.00 a week so your, "Fair Tax" is $2,652 per year, when most American’s only pay around $3,000 per year in federal tax now and that is deducted from your pay check. The "Fair Tax" will be deducted from your children, as well; you'll pay tax on the food they eat, not dollars you earn. The "Fair Tax" will not free you from property taxes, state taxes, liquor taxes and cigarette taxes, occupational taxes, license taxes, automobile taxes, ad nauseum.

Want to buy a new car? A $30,000 vehicle will be an additional $8,100 dollars, will that be cash or check? Or, would you like to finance the balance for five years, if so that will add another $400.00 a year in interest on the sales tax alone! Or ten grand for sales tax in five years. Yessiree sir, that’s gonna create lots of automotive jobs. So, you take your new car to gas it up at the pump and, although we’ve deducted the Federal excise tax and replaced it with the "Fair Tax", we’ve also left in place the state tax and you’re right, at $4.00 dollars a gallon, that’s bad. But its "Fair." Remember, every time that the price of gasoline goes up so does your tax bill because that’s "Fair."

Now, with the current Real Estate slump as it is, maybe the "Fair Tax" can help us out! A $200,000 house note balloons to $254,000. Just think, you get to finance $54,000 in sales tax for 30 years at say 7% or over $100,000 in interest over the life of the loan and that’s just on the sales tax. "Honey, call the movers!"

The "Fair Tax" scheme was instigated by Representative John Linder of Georgia, a man who listed his own net assets at $33 million dollars. So when a man with $33 million dollars tells you he has a "Fair Tax " plan, who do you think that fairness applies to? You? Or him? Linder first proposed his plan as "income tax reform" but it never caught on with the public so they took it back into the shop and retooled it as, "Fair." Everybody likes "Fair." How can you be against "Fair?"

Everybody likes hot showers, too, that’s why the Nazis led their victims to showers. If the sign on the door had said "gas chamber", no one would go in! So they bill the rape of the working public as "Fair." If enacted, the "Fair Tax" would be the largest tax increase on working people in recorded human history. Mr. Linder believes that there shouldn’t be any capital gains taxes because that’s not "Fair." Or taxes on foreign investments, no taxes of any kind on investments as, you see, that’s not "Fair."

What is "Fair" is you paying the taxes on every morsel of food that you put in your mouth or stick of gum or every pair of kid's shoes that you buy. Every dollar you earn goes down in value by 27% but the good news is! The "Fair Tax" will eliminate the IRS. That’s right! According to Linder, the billions in federal revenue collected by the "Fair Tax " will magically find its way into the appropriate coffers. How that will work, Mr. Linder is a little sketchy about, but with his giant brain working like it is, I suppose we should just trust him, right?

But, what about the poor? How will those unable to make ends meet now handle a 27% sales tax? Why, we’ll just issue rebates to the poor, Linder says confidently. But Mr. Linder? Isn’t that what the IRS does now? Are we to turn the world on its head just to get right back to where we started?

I should confess, I used to live in Linder’s district when he was a state Senator and first hatched this colossal humbug. My computer was new and I was reveling in the novelty of the Internet. I would ask questions to stymie him because I didn’t think that he could answer them. I asked, "If you add 27% to the purchase price of house and the home owner defaults on the loan, who takes the hit? Is the Mortgage Company liable for the unpaid taxes on the transaction? Are the taxes paid in a lump sum or is it handled in the escrow? Would the debtor still be liable for the tax debt? How would the banks resell a $200,000 house with a $54,000 tax loss on top of the purchase price? Would it then be $254,000 plus 27%?" I don't think Realtors would like this plan.

What will happen to the bond market when every Real Estate purchase is escalated by 27% in price? I don’t think the bond market is going to like that very much. What will happen to interest rates when 27% of all available Real Estate capital is sucked out of the market to be paid in, "Fair" taxes? I don’t think the stock market would like that very much, either. When the economy slows down, tax collection will slow as well, many states are facing this problem with sales taxes now. How will the "Fair Tax" address that, as costs will remain constant?

We all make mistakes but when some conspire to cheat you, that’s no error, that’s a con. When a man with $33 million in net assets devises a system where he pays less and you pay more, it’s a scam, bunko, a crime. Not only does he not belong in Congress, I’m not so sure he should be allowed to run loose on the streets. Point blank, for those of you who use 100% of your income to just keep the wolf from the door, you will pay 27% tax on 100% of your income. We will then magically reimburse those of you who didn’t have the money in the first place.

Now, if you’ve got 33 million in net assets, you probably live on 5% percent of your income. So 5% of your income will be taxed at 27% and 95% of your income will be tax-free, and that’s called "Fair." That’s what is called the "Fair Tax" but it''s a patent, medicine show huckster making fantastic promises that they could never keep and dodging any questions or responsibility for the societal side-effects. A snake oil promise and a tent revival sales pitch, a modern day rainmaker.

Instead, we should offer Mr. Linder first class accommodations on the classic split timber transport. Where his body will be gently massaged with a specially heated petroleum-based sealant and his skin covered in a soft and fluffy, all natural, poultry down. And, arriving at journeys end, he should receive an all- over, full body massage with our specially made Louisville massaging wands.

That’s the way you deal with a fraud that’s called "Fair!"

[Wild Cobra]

Dan the propagandist, posting propaganda again.

[Nbadan]

if you can't argue a well made point why post?

[Wild Cobra]

if you can't argue a well made point why post?
My God man... You posted other people lies. Complete propaganda or the worse kind since it is outright lies. The prices of those are incorrect because under the fair tax, the cost would come down as the embedded taxes are removed, then when the 23% is added, the prices are very close to the same as before.

I will not address such foolishness line by line. It a waste of time. These facts this has been stated over and over in these forums, yet you post such nonesense without any fact checking. This is a complete waste of cyberspace.

[Nbadan]

The prices of those are incorrect because under the fair tax, the cost would come down as the embedded taxes are removed, then when the 23% is added, the prices are very close to the same as before.

So you still pay 23% + city/state taxes.....+ fees, tolls etc. etc. etc.....what does a family of 4 making less than $35k pay in FED taxes now...and what percentage of their income would they pay with the so-called fair-tax.....how much in tax would a person who only uses 5% of his annual income pay in 'fair tax'....

[fyatuk]

So you still pay 23% + city/state taxes.....+ fees, tolls etc. etc. etc.....what does a family of 4 making less than $35k pay in FED taxes now...and what percentage of their income would they pay with the so-called fair-tax.....how much in tax would a person who only uses 5% of his annual income pay in 'fair tax'....

I'm with you on that one. the "Fair Tax" is idiotic.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

So you still pay 23% + city/state taxes.....+ fees, tolls etc. etc. etc.....what does a family of 4 making less than $35k pay in FED taxes now...and what percentage of their income would they pay with the so-called fair-tax.....

Why don't you do the math and provide it, seeings you are so sure there is a huge difference?

I love the dig at the guy saying that the author of the plan is worth 33 million and it won't apply equally to him. Straight from the fair tax web site:


Consider, for example, your typical billionaire, of which America now has more than 400. These fortunate few are invested primarily in equities on which they pay taxes at a 15 percent rate, whether their income comes in the form of capital gains or dividends. In addition to having the income from their wealth taxed at a low rate, the principal of their wealth is completely untaxed either directly or indirectly. Assuming they and their heirs spend only the income earned on the wealth each year, the tax rate today is 15 percent. In contrast, under the FairTax, the effective tax rate is 23 percent.


And this doesn't even get into the fact that all the illegals who aren't paying into things like SS, Medicare, etc. right now would be paying in under this plan.

But that wouldn't be right, would it, Dan?

[101A]

when most American’s only pay around $3,000 per year in federal tax...and some of us pay several multiples of that.

"Most" families, of course, think todays system is plenty fair.

This is a non-starter. DeToqueville knew it.

[DarkReign]

Yeah, so...

My wife routinely has to write a check to the Federal government every year in excess of $30k in taxes.

Fuck the government.

[101A]

Yeah, so...

My wife routinely has to write a check to the Federal government every year in excess of $30k in taxes.

Fuck the government.DR used to be a pretty mild-mannered dude; now he's getting punchy. Next thing you know? Living in an outhouse on the side of a mountain writing manifestos.

[DarkReign]

DR used to be a pretty mild-mannered dude; now he's getting punchy. Next thing you know? Living in an outhouse on the side of a mountain writing manifestos.

Who told you?!

[boutons_]

A lot of families don't gross $30K.

But still, in the top percentile with the largest reductions, you're bitchin.

[George Gervin's Afro]

My God man... You posted other people lies. Complete propaganda or the worse kind since it is outright lies. The prices of those are incorrect because under the fair tax, the cost would come down as the embedded taxes are removed, then when the 23% is added, the prices are very close to the same as before.

I will not address such foolishness line by line. It a waste of time. These facts this has been stated over and over in these forums, yet you post such nonesense without any fact checking. This is a complete waste of cyberspace.


So to sum up your post. Prices will come down by approx 23% so we can pay the 23% taxes on these items?

All product prices will be reduced because of the fair tax? Am I understanding the smartest guy in world on this one? does this make any sense to anyone?

[Spurminator]

Point blank, for those of you who use 100% of your income to just keep the wolf from the door, you will pay 27% tax on 100% of your income. We will then magically reimburse those of you who didn’t have the money in the first place.

Now, if you’ve got 33 million in net assets, you probably live on 5% percent of your income. So 5% of your income will be taxed at 27% and 95% of your income will be tax-free, and that’s called "Fair."

I wish people arguing against the Fair Tax would argue this point more, instead of wasting so much time reminding us that the costs of goods and services will increase if we increase sales tax.

No shit? My net income will go up but my grocery bill will go up too? You don't say!

[smeagol]

Come to Argentina . . . we have the "fair tax". It is called VAT. 21%

And we also get 20 - 35% witheld from our salary.

And we pay taxes every time we use our checking account.

We also pay a monthly tax if we own a car.

We pay taxes on our assets.

We pay property taxes.

We pay municipal taxes.

So please, quit bitching . . .

[smeagol]

By the way, fair tax = stupid idea.

[DarkReign]

Come to Argentina . . . we have the "fair tax". It is called VAT. 21%

And we also get 20 - 35% witheld from our salary.

And we pay taxes every time we use our checking account.

We also pay a monthly tax if we own a car.

We pay taxes on our assets.

We pay property taxes.

We pay municipal taxes.

So please, quit bitching . . .

Answer: I would move. Especially if I were someone like you who had first-hand experience in another country.

[smeagol]

Answer: I would move. Especially if I were someone like you who had first-hand experience in another country.

Argentina is a very beautiful, as well as a very frustrating place to live in. Not a shithole, as many gringos think, but certainly well enthrusted in the Third World.

The problem in many Argentines are happy with mediocrety and do little to change the status quo.

Frustrating.

[101A]

Come to Argentina . . . we have the "fair tax". It is called VAT. 21%

And we also get 20 - 35% witheld from our salary.

And we pay taxes every time we use our checking account.

We also pay a monthly tax if we own a car.

We pay taxes on our assets.

We pay property taxes.

We pay municipal taxes.

So please, quit bitching . . .
Oh, we're getting there.

We have sale's taxes, property taxes, municipal taxes, licensing fees for autos...

and, oh yeah, most income taxes paid in this country are above 35%.

[101A]

A lot of families don't gross $30K.

But still, in the top percentile with the largest reductions, you're bitchin.Hey B.

How many paychecks did you SIGN today?

[Holt's Cat]

How about the 'No Tax'? Well, not absolute. Still, why must we ship our $ to Washington so that it can come back to us (outside of defense and the other necessary expenditures for the government to provide a legal system and enforce laws)?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Hey B.

How many paychecks did you SIGN today?


hey 101 what does it matter?

[101A]

hey 101 what does it matter?Because Boutons likes to cast stones.

Easy to solve problems with other people's money.

[boutons_]

You sign paychecks, so you want a medal?

Are you making a money from the production of your employees?

Do you also bitch about having to pay your employees and their overheads as well as the IRS?

We're talking about PERSONAL income tax rates, not business.

[Holt's Cat]

You sign paychecks, so you want a medal?

Are you making a money from the production of your employees?

Do you also bitch about having to pay your employees and their overheads as well as the IRS?

We're talking about PERSONAL income tax rates, not business.

So businesses don't pay federal income taxes as well as social insurance program "contributions"?

[Holt's Cat]

Look out, boutons_ done found hisself a capitalist.

[xrayzebra]

Come to Argentina . . . we have the "fair tax". It is called VAT. 21%

And we also get 20 - 35% witheld from our salary.

And we pay taxes every time we use our checking account.

We also pay a monthly tax if we own a car.

We pay taxes on our assets.

We pay property taxes.

We pay municipal taxes.

So please, quit bitching . . .

Welcome to the socialist world. Hellllllllo Europe and
socialist medicine and the rest of their dumbass ideas.
I will keep what we got. Obama has hope and is
going to save us a bundle. Bundle=that is called
a shock when I was growing up, straw. You feed it to
cattle and it turns to what it is, BS!

[George Gervin's Afro]

Because Boutons likes to cast stones.

Easy to solve problems with other people's money.


fair point.

[ClingingMars]

The FairTax is one of the most brilliant tax reform ideas to ever be introduced in America.

-Mars

[Wild Cobra]

DR used to be a pretty mild-mannered dude; now he's getting punchy. Next thing you know? Living in an outhouse on the side of a mountain writing manifestos.
I've noticed as often as DR and I disagree on subjects, he at least has a good mind on subjects. This is one of the few cases we seem to agree on.

Punchy? Having to pay susch taxes pisses anyone off. It's just not fair.

I too get real irritated at the taxes I pay. It is an utter insult to pay so many taxes and fees, then be expected to pay more, when others pay nothing, then get money back anyway.

There is one part of the Fait Tax I disagree with, and that's the prebate. I simply see the system as needing to eliminate the prebate, then also have no tax on the essentials. I would see such a system very fair.

The fair tax has a difficult time making any progress. Not because it's a bad system. It's actually a very good system. It won't make it's way trough congress because it take power and control away from out elected official. The tax code is so big because of the subsidies, tax breaks, etc. granted to special interests who donate to get what they want. This payment for tax favors would completely disappear under the Fair Tax.

[boutons_]

I'm not solving any problems with anybody else's money.

the fucker come in here bragging and bitching about his wife paying $30K in income taxes when the US HOUSEHOULD median income is only $37K. Somebody pass that whiner a Kleenex.

[Wild Cobra]

So to sum up your post. Prices will come down by approx 23% so we can pay the 23% taxes on these items?

All product prices will be reduced because of the fair tax? Am I understanding the smartest guy in world on this one? does this make any sense to anyone?
Actually, the embedded taxes are about 30% by some calculations. It certainly isn't that in all instances. Just the average. It means something costing $100 would now cost $76.92 give or take a little bit, after payroll taxes, corporate taxes, etc. are removed. $76.92 taxed at 23% is now the reduced cost plus $17.69 in tax. The new cost is $94.61. The proposal reduces that taxes for most people. Since the rich only end up paying 12% to 15%, they end up paying more rather than less. It also gets revenue from earnings of illegal activities like the drug trade and payroll under the table. It taxes most legal earners less, but is revenue neutral because of the other taxes it collects that go uncollected.

Consider removing the built in taxes of food and other necessities, then have no tax on them. Wouldn't you like to see such essentials cost less? Only pay taxes on nonessentials?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Actually, the embedded taxes are about 30% by some calculations. It certainly isn't that in all instances. Just the average. It means something costing $100 would now cost $76.92 give or take a little bit, after payroll taxes, corporate taxes, etc. are removed. $76.92 taxed at 23% is now the reduced cost plus $17.69 in tax. The new cost is $94.61. The proposal reduces that taxes for most people. Since the rich only end up paying 12% to 15%, they end up paying more rather than less. It also gets revenue from earnings of illegal activities like the drug trade and payroll under the table. It taxes most legal earners less, but is revenue neutral because of the other taxes it collects that go uncollected.

Consider removing the built in taxes of food and other necessities, then have no tax on them. Wouldn't you like to see such essentials cost less? Only pay taxes on nonessentials?


So what essential services do we lose with the lost revenue? What are we giving up?

[Wild Cobra]

So what essential services do we lose with the lost revenue? What are we giving up?
Huh? That doesn't make any sense to me. Can you elaborate?

There is approximately the same revenue. No lost revenue.

It does not change state and local tax collection to any significan degree, only federal. States and local levels would likely follow suit.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Huh? That doesn't make any sense to me. Can you elaborate?

There is approximately the same revenue. No lost revenue.

It does not change state and local tax collection to any significan degree, only federal. States and local levels would likely follow suit.


Less federal money to states will mean the states will have to either pass it along to local municipalities or cut services. maybe the state increase fees to offset the loss? the cost of drivers licenses go up? wouldn't that all even out?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

So to sum up your post. Prices will come down by approx 23% so we can pay the 23% taxes on these items?

All product prices will be reduced because of the fair tax? Am I understanding the smartest guy in world on this one? does this make any sense to anyone?

Yeah, but it all works out because illegals start paying into the system and rich folk can't use loopholes in the tax code to shift their money around and reduce their real tax rates...

[smeagol]

Having to pay susch taxes pisses anyone off. It's just not fair.


Taxes are the resulting of living in a civilized society. Don't want to pay them, go live in the Amazon jungle.



I too get real irritated at the taxes I pay. It is an utter insult to pay so many taxes and fees, then be expected to pay more, when others pay nothing, then get money back anyway.

Who's paying nothing? The ones that make close to nothing?

Shit, that really doesn't make sense . . . :rolleyes

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I'm not solving any problems with anybody else's money.

the fucker come in here bragging and bitching about his wife paying $30K in income taxes when the US HOUSEHOULD median income is only $37K. Somebody pass that whiner a Kleenex.

Maybe one day when you graduate home school and get a job in the real world and get your paycheck and do the math on what is taken out, you'll get it.

It used to piss me off to no end in college (I worked part time to help put myself through school on top of student loans) to see people come through my store (HEB) and be buying $500 in groceries using Food Stamps and yet they had nicer cell phones and clothes than me.

Fuck that, and I'm sitting there having my paycheck docked to pay for that shit.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Dan the propagandist, posting propaganda again.

I find your rants against the liberals on this forum extremely amusing, considering you are one of the worst ideologues here. You have this peculiar air of self righteousness about the partisan nature of this forum, but you seem to ignore or fail to recognize the pigheadedness of you and your conservative cohorts.

And you're genuinely unintelligent.

[Holt's Cat]

I find your rants against the liberals on this forum extremely amusing, considering you are one of the worst ideologues here. You have this peculiar air of self righteousness about the partisan nature of this forum, but you seem to ignore or fail to recognize the pigheadedness of you and your conservative cohorts.

And you're genuinely unintelligent.

I find your rants against the conservatives on this forum extremely amusing, considering you are one of the worst ideologues here. You have this peculiar air of self righteousness about the partisan nature of this forum, but you seem to ignore or fail to recognize the pigheadedness of you and your liberal cohorts.

And you're genuinely unintelligent.

[rasho8]

Im not understanding the point of for the fair tax.

So I dont pay my federal income taxes anymore. Cool. And living in Texas I dont pay state taxes anyway.

But everything I buy is taxed an axtra 27% which is cool because in the end I pay less taxes.

But rich people pay even LESS taxes because they dont spend all their money, thats why they are rich. I spend all my money so I pay a flat 27%, they spend 10 time what I do but they make 100 times what I do.. so they only pay 2.7%? Is that how that works?

Also I bought an 11000 turck and paid about 900 bucks in TT&L youre saying NOW I would pay over 2700 in Taxes for ym truck? So instead of 12K it will cost me almost 14k? That sucks. What if I can buy the truck now because its not worth that much? Now I cant buy a car. No Im hosed.

What about my house? Do I pay 27% on my house? And then do I pay ridiculous property taxes at 4700 a year as well? I can claim that now. But not under the fair tax right? Now I just pay it anyway. So in one year I paid 2700 in taxes for my truck, 4700 in taxes on my house and 27% 0f about 40k.

Let me add it up real quick.

27% plus 2700 plus 4700 is 18200 dollars. Well lets divide 2700 by 5 cause thats my loan length right? So its only 540 this year.

So I pay 16040 out of my 40k paychceck. Damn near half.

Right now I pay about.... 7K.

I like 7k.

No fair tax for me.

[Wild Cobra]

Less federal money to states will mean the states will have to either pass it along to local municipalities or cut services. maybe the state increase fees to offset the loss? the cost of drivers licenses go up? wouldn't that all even out?
Why are you assuming such things?

The Fair Tax does not change where federal spending goes. It only changes how revenue is collected.

[Wild Cobra]

Rash, first of all, it's 23% not 27%. Then the truck should cost about the same because when the embedded taxes are removed, it costs less when the fair tax is applied.

Now I don't remember the specifics of property transactions, but that is done differently, and doesn't affect the price much either. The legislation has been out there. It is HR 25 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:HR25:) in congress.

There are two books out on it now. "The Fair Tax Book" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_FairTax_Book) and "FairTax: The Truth: Answering the Critics." (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780061540462&itm=4) I have the first one, but haven't bought the second one yet. Looks like I need to in ordr to address some questions in more detail.

[smeagol]

What is it that people don't get about progressive tax system?

You make more, you pay more taxes.

[Wild Cobra]

What is it that people don't get about progressive tax system?

You make more, you pay more taxes.
The thing is that most rich people don't pay under the income tax system. They pay taxes on dividends and capitol gains. They still pay quite a bit more in taxes than other people, even though they pay a lower rate. In the case of stockholders who pay capitol gains, 35% is already skimmed off at their corporate ownership level. They effectively are already double taxed.

The progressive income tax system is not fair. At the same tax rate, people with more money people pay more in taxes. Under the Bush tax cuts, the marginal rates for the middle class went from 15% to 10% or 28% to 25%. The lower income tax payers ended up paying 33.3% less in taxes. From 15% to 10%. When the democrats fail to renew these tax breaks, the lower income people who pay taxes will see an effective 50% increase from 10% to 15%. With the 2008 tax table, this is up to $16,500 taxable income for a joint return. With an 2008 estimated $10,900 standard deduction, and exemption of $3500 (x4) the gross income for a family of four can be up to $41,400 ($10,900 +($3,500 x 4) + $16,500). Now lets consider what a family of four pays with a 2008 income of $40,000. Their taxable income is $9,500. At 10%, this is $950 in taxes. If the Bush tax cuts were expired for 2008, this would now be 15%, or $1,425.

Notice at 2008 levels, a family of four pays no federal income at incomes of $28,900 or less.

I have to go, so I cannot finish where I was going with this. As feel-good as a progressive tax system is. It isn't fair. These people at $28,900 or less have no consequences for voting to increase taxes, or programs that end up requiring taxation.

[rasho8]

How is the flat tax fairer than progressive?

Try this.

I make 10000 a year, I spend it all I get taxed 2300 dollars. I have a total spending power of 7700 dollars for the year. Crappy. And one HAS to spend all of it just to live

I make 100000 a year. I spend half of it I pay 11500 in taxes. I have a total spending power of 38500... but I still have 50000 left over that I put into stocks and bonds.

Luckily Im not taxed on that ever until I spend it. Which will be never because I will keep doing this for 20 years and retire living off the interest... in Costa Rica.

Luckily they dot have sales tax.

So in the 50 years of the poor persons adult life he paid a total of 115000 in taxes.
In 50 years of the rich guys adult life (20 of which he spends in this country paying sales tax), he spent 230000 so he paid twice as much... and made 10 times more.

Where as with the progressive tax system, if they just simplified the tax codes, it would be MUCH more fair.

Toss the tax code, remove the loopholes and tax people the progressive rate, give them a dependent tax credit and allow deductions for homes and remove things like the marriage penalty.

Then fore the IRS and get real people in there instead of unhelpful soulless robots.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

I find your rants against the conservatives on this forum extremely amusing, considering you are one of the worst ideologues here. You have this peculiar air of self righteousness about the partisan nature of this forum, but you seem to ignore or fail to recognize the pigheadedness of you and your liberal cohorts.

And you're genuinely unintelligent.

I tend not to make an issue over the partisan nature of a political forum.... it seems to be a rather logical orientation for one.

[angrydude]

There is a HUGE difference between income and wealth.

Rich people understand that. Poor people do not.

That's why poor people have to work super hard and then get up to 1/3 of their annual net worth seized by the government (as most people live paycheck to paycheck with very little savings) and rich people pay a very small percentage of their net worth as their assets (because of what they can borrow against them) make up the majority of their wealth--not the paycheck from their job.

That's why rich people don't pay a fair amount of taxes and the current system is broken.

[sabar]

Come to Argentina . . . we have the "fair tax". It is called VAT. 21%

And we also get 20 - 35% witheld from our salary.

And we pay taxes every time we use our checking account.

We also pay a monthly tax if we own a car.

We pay taxes on our assets.

We pay property taxes.

We pay municipal taxes.

So please, quit bitching . . .value added tax is a bit different as it taxes a good at every step of production. example

farmer pays for pickle seeds $1.00
farmer creates pickle $1.50. manufacturer buys for this price.
manufacturer makes canned pickle $3.00. consumer buys for this price.

total worth of good is 3+1.5+1= $5.50, A VAT taxes at each step, consumption tax taxes the end.

[101A]

Taxes are the resulting of living in a civilized society. Don't want to pay them, go live in the Amazon jungle.




Who's paying nothing? The ones that make close to nothing?

Shit, that really doesn't make sense . . . :rolleyesThe top 20% of income earners in the U.S. pay roughly 80% of the taxes.

MANY people, therefore, pay little to no federal income tax; even those who, especially relative to the rest of the world, make a very reasonable income - which is EXACTLY the dynamic you would expect in a democracy, I guess.

[101A]

There is a HUGE difference between income and wealth.

Rich people understand that. Poor people do not.

That's why poor people have to work super hard and then get up to 1/3 of their annual net worth seized by the government (as most people live paycheck to paycheck with very little savings) and rich people pay a very small percentage of their net worth as their assets (because of what they can borrow against them) make up the majority of their wealth--not the paycheck from their job.

That's why rich people don't pay a fair amount of taxes and the current system is broken.Ahhhh, but I am neither rich, nor poor - I just have a (reasonably) high income. I'm trying to build all of that wealth that you are talking about, but I creep into the top tax bracket - and, hell do the math, the rate is pretty damn high.

So, I save, I put away, I invest; and NOW, after I have paid all that income tax, and STILL managed to build a net worth in a few years, you want to come after THAT, tooo!!!!!!


FUCK YOU!

[DarkReign]

After having a dialogue with 101A on a Federal Sales Tax to replace our current sales tax, its quite obvious it isnt realistic by any means.

There is no real alternative to our current Progressive Tax. Bottom line is, the "rich" pay a steep, steep tax penalty when compared to everyone else. Sure, you could argue they can afford it, and I wont argue that point, but that doesnt change the fact that those big, bad rich people pay far, FAR more taxes in 5-10 years than you ever will in your lifetime.

Just be happy they do.

[DarkReign]

As an example, I pay a ridiculous amount of taxes. If my taxes are ridiculous, my wife's tax payments border on lunacy.

While my brother's baby's momma, the shit sucking cunt that she is, earns less than $10k a year, pays no taxes, filed her taxes for 2007 and just got a "refund" from the government for $7,000.

Explain that.

[101A]

After having a dialogue with 101A on a Federal Sales Tax to replace our current sales tax, ...
Very diplomatic...although you don't have to be so.

I recognize I wasn't so much dialoguing, as ranting most of the time (I'll dialogue after 4/15).

[101A]

Explain that.One word:

Progressive.

[xrayzebra]

As an example, I pay a ridiculous amount of taxes. If my taxes are ridiculous, my wife's tax payments border on lunacy.

While my brother's baby's momma, the shit sucking cunt that she is, earns less than $10k a year, pays no taxes, filed her taxes for 2007 and just got a "refund" from the government for $7,000.

Explain that.

Dimm-o-craps!

I would like to chime in with my two cents. Politicians
are not going to give up the power of taxation and
determining who is taxed and how much. It gives
them the power to "determine" and "punish" and
"reward". Why do you think our tax code is so messed
up.


They will find ways to get the same amount of money
to dispose of in the manner they want. Let's take
tobacco. They condemn it and say they want everyone
to quit smoking. How are they going to replace that
tax money, they will you know. Look at the so called
minimum tax mess. All of them say we must do
something, but cant give up that revenue. Such a
nice bunch we have in Washington.

[smeagol]

There is a HUGE difference between income and wealth.

Rich people understand that. Poor people do not.

That's why poor people have to work super hard and then get up to 1/3 of their annual net worth seized by the government (as most people live paycheck to paycheck with very little savings) and rich people pay a very small percentage of their net worth as their assets (because of what they can borrow against them) make up the majority of their wealth--not the paycheck from their job.

That's why rich people don't pay a fair amount of taxes and the current system is broken.

Are you proposing to tax assets?

:fuckingrolleyeyes!!!!!!!

[xrayzebra]

Are you proposing to tax assets?

:fuckingrolleyeyes!!!!!!!

In some cases assets are taxed.

[smeagol]

In some cases assets are taxed.

I'm talking about an all-encompassing asset tax. Something like, 1% on all your assets.

[Holt's Cat]

After having a dialogue with 101A on a Federal Sales Tax to replace our current sales tax, its quite obvious it isnt realistic by any means.

There is no real alternative to our current Progressive Tax. Bottom line is, the "rich" pay a steep, steep tax penalty when compared to everyone else. Sure, you could argue they can afford it, and I wont argue that point, but that doesnt change the fact that those big, bad rich people pay far, FAR more taxes in 5-10 years than you ever will in your lifetime.

Just be happy they do.

Not to mention that for most of those regarded as "rich", they receive no favors from the feds. So they receive the same level of federal government services, at triple the proportional cost.

[Holt's Cat]

I'm talking about an all-encompassing asset tax. Something like, 1% on all your assets.

How about no tax on wealth or income?

And I'm not referring to some kind of broad-based 25% or whatever federal sales tax rate. That's ridiculous. The degree of taxation is ultimately tied to the level of federal government expenditures, or essentially what the American people expect the feds to provide. Everyone wants to pay less in income taxes, but whenever any restraint or reduction in federal expenditures is put forth, it never seems to go anywhere.

[101A]

... but whenever any restraint or reduction in federal expenditures is put forth, it never seems to go anywhere.Go Figure.

[smeagol]

How about no tax on wealth or income?

And I'm not referring to some kind of broad-based 25% or whatever federal sales tax rate. That's ridiculous. The degree of taxation is ultimately tied to the level of federal government expenditures, or essentially what the American people expect the feds to provide. Everyone wants to pay less in income taxes, but whenever any restraint or reduction in federal expenditures is put forth, it never seems to go anywhere.


The problem in underdeveloped countries is that only 50% (or less) of the people who should pay taxes, really pay them.

So the government comes up with different new taxes, which end up being paid always by the same people.

And these new taxes, such as increasing VAT from 15% to 21%, or the implementation of the asset tax, or the tax on checking accounts, are always increased or imposed because of some so called "crisis".

But when things are going better, those taxes remain in place. They never go away.

Bottom line, US tax laws are not that bad, if you keep things in perspective (like most other things).

[101A]

And these new taxes, such as increasing VAT from 15% to 21%, or the implementation of the asset tax, or the tax on checking accounts, are always increased or imposed because of some so called "crisis".

But when things are going better, those taxes remain in place. They never go away.
This is SOP around the globe, I believe. It is not in the nature of the bureacracy to give back what it has coerced. I attend school board meeting up here in PA (small district - a single 2A high school); it is amazing (disheartening) to watch the board members fall into the trap (even those that ran "conservative" campaigns). They NEVER talk about any REAL spending cuts, or conservation plans. The issue is ALWAYS revenue, and how to get more of it - and despite the fact that there are fewer and fewer students in the district; the costs continue to rise - the pig gets bigger. It is at these levels that the problems inherent in the system are so obvious; and obviously exponentially worse as the bureacracy gets bigger.

[dimsah]

I live in PA as well. My family has lived in our current home since 2003. We locked in a 30 year fixed at 6%. Sounds pretty good, right?

The annual increase in property tax, even when the property values are going lower in the area, has essentially worked like an ARM in that my mortgage payment continues to increase every year. I now pay over $250 a month more than I did when I bought the home 5 years ago.

It's ridiculous. My monthly escrow payment is almost as much as the Payment and interest of my mortgage payment.

[101A]

I live in PA as well. My family has lived in our current home since 2003. We locked in a 30 year fixed at 6%. Sounds pretty good, right?

The annual increase in property tax, even when the property values are going lower in the area, has essentially worked like an ARM in that my mortgage payment continues to increase every year. I now pay over $250 a month more than I did when I bought the home 5 years ago.

It's ridiculous. My monthly escrow payment is almost as much as the Payment and interest of my mortgage payment.I moved up from Texas is '05.

PA is hopeless.

There are two interstates which cross the state - one is tolled right now; the other is not; they now want to toll the second. And they wonder why all the jobs are moving away (not overseas - to other states!) Corporate taxes through the roof; I file FOUR income tax returns (Fed, State, Township AND School District) - and I pay an annual "Priviledge of Working Tax" of $55 - my personal favorite.

They don't get it.

[Wild Cobra]

I live in PA as well. My family has lived in our current home since 2003. We locked in a 30 year fixed at 6%. Sounds pretty good, right?

The annual increase in property tax, even when the property values are going lower in the area, has essentially worked like an ARM in that my mortgage payment continues to increase every year. I now pay over $250 a month more than I did when I bought the home 5 years ago.

It's ridiculous. My monthly escrow payment is almost as much as the Payment and interest of my mortgage payment.
I moved up from Texas is '05.

PA is hopeless.

There are two interstates which cross the state - one is tolled right now; the other is not; they now want to toll the second. And they wonder why all the jobs are moving away (not overseas - to other states!) Corporate taxes through the roof; I file FOUR income tax returns (Fed, State, Township AND School District) - and I pay an annual "Priviledge of Working Tax" of $55 - my personal favorite.

They don't get it.You will see that any place that has authoritarian politicians, they will regulate land usage. That increases the values of the land. They love it because it brings in more and more property taxes to do this and that. We have been dealing with property inflation for years in Oregon due to bureaucratic control. This latest fad of various property schemes hasn't helped any. The politicians love it, but notice when land values decline, the assessed values never are!

Taxes... Money... Power...