Hey whottt

[picnroll]

When is Shaq going to show up?

[whottt]

Shaq's already shown up...he's been putting up good numbers until tonight.


It's ironic because he and Nash may be the easiest players to play with in the NBA(along with Duncan), yet they haven't really figured out how to play together. Surprising...but if you don't think Nash will have that figured out by the end of the season, you haven't watched him play very much.


It's a big transition, but I am pretty sure they'll get hot at some point before the season is over. and they'll match up with us in the playoffs a hell of a lot better with Shaq than they did with Marion.



I'm glad they didn't get Brent Barry...he'd have helped them quite a bit with their spacing and ball movement.


I have no problems saying that they, not the Lakers will be the team that is going to challenge us in the Western Conference playoffs.




But go ahead and claim scoreboard 6 games in...

[picnroll]

WTF

Shaq has sucked. His defense is horrible. He can't establish low post position. He's getting defended and pushed out of the paint by scrubs unless he fouls them with an elbow on the turn. He can't finish chippies at the basket. You have lost your fucking mind. Suns the Spurs biggest threat? :rollinThe Suns will be lucky to make the playoffs. I think Kerr trading for Shaq may have been collusion to help Presti by turning that Suns pick the Sonics got into a lottery choice.

[SAGambler]

WTF

Shaq has sucked. His defense is horrible. He can't establish low post position. He's getting defended and pushed out of the paint by scrubs unless he fouls them with an elbow on the turn. He can't finish chippies at the basket. You have lost your fucking mind. Suns the Spurs biggest threat? :rollinThe Suns will be lucky to make the playoffs. I think Kerr trading for Shaq may have been collusion to help Presti by turning that Suns pick the Sonics got into a lottery choice.


:clap :clap

[whottt]

Dude, Shaq hasn't played the kind of D you are taking about since about 1993. He's never played that kind of D...he intimidates.


I don't know if you've ever watched the Suns play with Marion and Amare...but they were charmin soft in the paint. They didn't play any kind of defense...they were inviting even. They aren't going to be inviting with Shaq in there....even if he just stands there he is going to be more of a presence than Amare and Marion were combined.


In a playoff style game, half court, they are going to infinitely better with Shaq in there than they were with Marion and Amare. Infinitely better.


Go ahead and claim victory now...but you are wrong if you don't think their play will improve. And they will be a better half court team than they have been in this era.

[picnroll]

Bookmarked.

[CarefreeAZ]

Yes, San Antonio fans, we are sucking and I know that you all are happy about that. Shaq's defense is not what we are relying on but his rebounding which has helped take away the second chance points that teams were getting, along with every big guy not having career nights due to Amare's stellar defense. Our new problem now = other team's backcourt guard tandem shooting a nice 55+%. All the Western teams are playing good basketball and there is not much leeway/time in trying to figure out how this is all going to work.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

I agree, it's too soon to tell right now.

[picnroll]

Yes, San Antonio fans, we are sucking and I know that you all are happy about that. Shaq's defense is not what we are relying on but his rebounding which has helped take away the second chance points that teams were getting, along with every big guy not having career nights due to Amare's stellar defense. Our new problem now = other team's backcourt guard tandem shooting a nice 55+%. All the Western teams are playing good basketball and there is not much leeway/time in trying to figure out how this is all going to work.
So far, of Odom, Gasol, Garnett, Perkins, Reggie Evans, Warrick, Wallace, McDyess, Darko, Chandler the only bigs held below their average have been Perkins by a point and Chandler. Most of these guys have been 8, 9, 10 points over their average playing against the Suns. If that's what you're pinning your improvement on, good luck.

[CarefreeAZ]

So far, of Odom, Gasol, Garnett, Perkins, Reggie Evans, Warrick, Wallace, McDyess, Darko, Chandler the only bigs held below their average have been Perkins by a point and Chandler. Most of these guys have been 8, 9, 10 points over their average playing against the Suns. If that's what you're pinning your improvement on, good luck.

Just stating that it was alot worse. Although not great it has improved - especially the rebounding differential. Shawn Marion's intangibles and hustle were always going to be missed.

[Ghost Writer]

The Suns didn't get Shaq for him personally to be a savior. They got him to allow Stoudamire's game to flourish, add some presence inside and permit the team to perform better in the halfcourt come playoffs time.

[ludda]

Uhmare's stats sure are up, but Suns still losing.

I agree, too early to tell but so far their attempts as a halfcourt team are not very successful, having defensive stalwarts like Nash and Amare doesn't help in that case.

[remingtonbo2001]

Dude, Shaq hasn't played the kind of D you are taking about since about 1993. He's never played that kind of D...he intimidates.

Whottt...That's IDIOTIC.

I can usually find some amount of logic, but that statement deserves to be thrown to the trolls.

If intimidation is the methodology behind Shaq's defense and it keeps the other team from scoring, then it's obviously a good techinique. It might not be textbook defense, but defense is essentially keeping your opponent from scoring.

I think there were other qualities besides intimidation which made Shaq a worthy post defender.

[my2sons]

Shaq's already shown up...he's been putting up good numbers until tonight.


It's ironic because he and Nash may be the easiest players to play with in the NBA(along with Duncan), yet they haven't really figured out how to play together. Surprising...but if you don't think Nash will have that figured out by the end of the season, you haven't watched him play very much.


It's a big transition, but I am pretty sure they'll get hot at some point before the season is over. and they'll match up with us in the playoffs a hell of a lot better with Shaq than they did with Marion.


I'm glad they didn't get Brent Barry...he'd have helped them quite a bit with their spacing and ball movement.


I have no problems saying that they, not the Lakers will be the team that is going to challenge us in the Western Conference playoffs.




But go ahead and claim scoreboard 6 games in...



just don't know if 25 games will be enough time for shaq to figure out when to get out of the way. It would be a much easier transition if shaq was known for his defense, but he hogs the paint needs to repost and holds the ball way too long for a pass oriented run and gun team. Lets just say as a spurs fan, I hope they don't get it until next year. the advantage is that dantoni's system is not that complicated, but is the coach smart enough to figure it out

[K-State Spur]

soft? yes. but Marion was a better post defender than Shaq.

Shaq + Amare = worst defensive frontcourt in the league. Throw in Nash, and they shouldn't expect to get stops anywhere in the court. When they play the Spurs, how many guys are they planning on hiding on Bruce?

[jag]

When you go from being strictly run and gun to not knowing when to run or when to slow it down...i can see how that might be a little confusing.

[Sec24Row7]

They have no idea what they are doing right now...

And D'Antoni has no hope of helping them figure it out since he is such a shitty coach.

[Spuradicator]

Dude, Shaq hasn't played the kind of D you are taking about since about 1993. He's never played that kind of D...he intimidates.


I don't know if you've ever watched the Suns play with Marion and Amare...but they were charmin soft in the paint. They didn't play any kind of defense...they were inviting even. They aren't going to be inviting with Shaq in there....even if he just stands there he is going to be more of a presence than Amare and Marion were combined.


In a playoff style game, half court, they are going to infinitely better with Shaq in there than they were with Marion and Amare. Infinitely better.


Go ahead and claim victory now...but you are wrong if you don't think their play will improve. And they will be a better half court team than they have been in this era.


Yeah Shaq's D has really improved the Suns. Thats why they are giving up a shit load of points and scoring way less than what we are use to seeing.

While I agree its too early to tell, I still think this was a bad move for the Suns. They have no one but Bell to defend the perimeter and teams are shooting a very high % against them. And Im sorry, Shaq doesn't intimidate anyone anymore. I know he doesn't intimidate the Spurs.

Bottom line he just doesn't fit their style.

[E20]

The reason Amare's SCORING average is up is because Marion is not there, so he gots more attempts.

[polandprzem]

I'm waiting for timvp to second whottttt

Than I will have a good material to bump in the playoffs

[whottt]

timvp wants to hedge so you probably won't get any ironclad commitment from him(not that that keeps him from being owned)...


You will get one from me however...barring injury this Suns team will give up less points in the paint and match up better with the Spurs than any other Suns team of this era.


I don't know that they are going to match up with all teams better...but they'll definitely match up with us better...as their transition game was completely useless against us in a closeout situation.

[polandprzem]

timvp wants to hedge so you probably won't get any ironclad commitment from him(not that that keeps him from being owned)...


You will get one from me however...barring injury this Suns team will give up less points in the paint and match up better with the Spurs than any other Suns team of this era.


I don't know that they are going to match up with all teams better...but they'll definitely match up with us better...as their transition game was completely useless against us in a closeout situation.

And Shaq gives them fenomenal half court defense and superb half-court ofense.

Saq is not threat at all on defense. No pick&roll defense at all.
Ofensive game is suspicious - what in a hack you gonna play? A running game with shaq in the lineup? Inside outside? Motion? Tough questions. Esp. when you have a guy that was in a heat squad and contributed nothing.

[whottt]

I don't care how bad you think Shaq is now in the halfcourt, he's still better than Marion...Shawn Marion is not a halfcourt player in any way shape or form...and he's not a great defender at the PF position either.

[picnroll]

I don't care how bad you think Shaq is now in the halfcourt, he's still better than Marion...Shawn Marion is not a halfcourt player in any way shape or form...and he's not a great defender at the PF position either.
So the Suns have gone from a good running, bad half court offense and decent perimeter and bad interior defensive team to a bad running and half court offense and bad perimeter and interior defensive team. Seems like a winning formula to me.

[polandprzem]

I don't care how bad you think Shaq is now in the halfcourt, he's still better than Marion
In a halfcourt ?

It giving better results?



Shawn Marion is not a halfcourt player in any way shape or form...and he's not a great defender at the PF position either.
and shaq is?

he is having above 8 fouls per 48minutes, it is not difficult to get rid of him from the game. Than you have Phoenix squad - 6 man rotation.

They now lost to Phily, if they drop few more of those they can lose a playoff spot.

It's a big if though.


IMO Shaq is more done than he is into a way to best performances in more than a year

[whottt]

Actually...it's more difficult to foul Shaq out than you'd think...


If they called the fouls they were supposed to on Shaq he'd have scored 10 points for his entire career.


And yes he's a much better half court player than Shawn Marion, offensivly and defensivly, right now, than Shawn Marion was on his best day.

Shawn Marion is a great interior defender? On who? Point guards?

[whottt]

So the Suns have gone from a good running, bad half court offense and decent perimeter and bad interior defensive team to a bad running and half court offense and bad perimeter and interior defensive team. Seems like a winning formula to me.


Their running couldn't get them past us on their best day...and they'll be bettter against us in the halfcourt...


They couldn't beat our transition D anyway...so even if Shaq slowing them down, it is not going to have a huge impact on that part of our matchup.


Where he will impact them in in the half court...and they are going to be better with him than they were with Crepe Paper Marion.

And Marion has had zero impact on the Heat...at last Shaq can say the Heat sucked because Wade was out....what's Marion's excuse?

[polandprzem]

Shawn Marion is a great interior defender? On who? Point guards?

Even if

Is Shaq on SF's?


I just gonna wait man. Cause when Shaq won his last title it was all about Wade and the refs and the chokers.
Shaq put worse numbers than D-Rob in 2003 Finals. And it was 2 years ago. Then he decided to embarass the Heat team. He went to Phoenix and started running his mouth (just mouth).

You know talk is cheap, so I'd rather wait till playoffs (to bump this thread)

[polandprzem]

And Marion has had zero impact on the Heat...at last Shaq can say the Heat sucked because Wade was out....what's Marion's excuse?

1. Riley said, tank baby tank!

2. Marion is not familiar with the system

[picnroll]

If the Suns miss the playoffs no claiming "Yeah but they would have given the Spurs a hard time if they'd only made it".

[whottt]

If the Suns miss the playoffs no claiming "Yeah but they would have given the Spurs a hard time if they'd only made it".


Are you saying they won't make the playoffs?

[picnroll]

Are you saying they won't make the playoffs?
If they make it I think they won't be better than seventh seed and if they don't start playing better they may miss it entirely. It amazes me that someone can't see how much of a shell Shaq is of his former self.

[whottt]

If they make it I think they won't be better than seventh seed and if they don't start playing better they may miss it entirely. It amazes me that someone can't see how much of a shell Shaq is of his former self.


And it's amazing to me that no one can see that you or I could hang 30 on Amare and Marion.

[Medvedenko]

And it's amazing to me that no one can see that you or I could hang 30 on Amare and Marion.

What a dumb post dude.

[whottt]

What a dumb post dude.


Dude...you name is Medvedenko...just shut up.

[Spurminator]

I don't see the Suns missing the Playoffs, but MAAAAAAN that would be awesome...

[BlackSwordsMan]

Shaq is awesome. Trade duncan, parker, ginobili for him spurs.

[m33p0]

whottt, are you saying that the Suns is or will be SUBSTANTIALLY BETTER or simply MARGINALLY BETTER with Shaq?

i do agree that they are at least marginally better with Shaq than Marion in terms of interior presence on both ends. that is, afterall, where Shaq made his career. but to claim that they will substantially better matchup for the Spurs come playoff time would be a stretch. Marion does have a history of disappearing in the playoffs especially against the Spurs.

[Agloco]

All Shaq's good for now is making the nearest buffet restaraunt owner nervous.

It's hard to imagine Shaq having another gear for the playoffs. He's really rusty to say the least. Ironically, it might be in the best interest of most teams now to run against the Suns rather than slow it down.......

[whottt]

whottt, are you saying that the Suns is or will be SUBSTANTIALLY BETTER or simply MARGINALLY BETTER with Shaq?

Substantially better...they'll match up with Duncan better defensively, they'll have a legit post threat in the paint, after having none.

They'll be substantially better.....if Shaq doesn't break down.





i do agree that they are at least marginally better with Shaq than Marion in terms of interior presence on both ends. that is, afterall, where Shaq made his career. but to claim that they will substantially better matchup for the Spurs come playoff time would be a stretch.


Why?

When you just said...



Marion does have a history of disappearing in the playoffs especially against the Spurs.

Damn right he does...does Shaq?

[Spurminator]

Damn right he does...does Shaq?

Well, he HAS been swept six times...

[whottt]

Well, he HAS been swept six times...

Are you saying we are going to sweep the Suns?

[Spurminator]

No. I'm saying it could be argued that, even with all of his success, Shaq has a history of disappearing in the Playoffs some years.

I'm willing to give the Suns more time before I pronounce them dead.

[picnroll]

They'll be substantially better.....if Shaq doesn't break down.

Too late.

[Agloco]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v729/Toxiclemonade/Spurs/SpurStuff/sporkshaq.jpg

Sporks in 4. Book it.

[Spurminator]

Here's a sincere question, because I don't know the answer...

Has Shaq ever won a game when facing elimination (aside from a Game 7)? I'll look it up but if anyone knows off the top of their heads, feel free to chime in. Just curious.

[m33p0]

Substantially better...they'll match up with Duncan better defensively, they'll have a legit post threat in the paint, after having none.

They'll be substantially better.....if Shaq doesn't break down.

the fact that the Amare isn't the best of weak side help defenders and that Shaq is getting up in age. And though I can't discount your claim that the Suns will now be able to better guard Duncan with Shaq on him and Amare provide weak side help, whoever Amare is guarding will have a field day under the basket. at least, i hope that's how it will turn out.


Damn right he does...does Shaq?
Ah... okay. If that's where you're pinning your analysis on, i really can't disagree. :lol

[whottt]

I'm pinning my analysis on the fact I've seen Manu Ginobili dunk on Marion and Amare like they were midgets...to the tune of 48 points one night...you let me know if Manu has ever even come close to doing that when Shaq is in the paint.


I'm pinning my analysis on the fact that in 2006 I watched Shaq's team beat a team that had just eliminated us, and Shaq was already in decline, but one of the reasons he was able to beat that team was for the simple reason that he was willing to knock Dirk Nowitski on his ass...and Dirk knew it...which is why Dirk didn't look like Wilt Chamberlain against them like he did against us.


I'm pinning my analysis on the fact that in 2004 through the first 2 games of the WCSF, Tony Parker was dropping teardrops over Shaq's slow ugly dome like Shaq was CBA reject...then Shaq decided he was going to backhand Parker like a bitch every time he came into the paint and Tony Parker was never seen again for the rest of that series...regardless of the fact that Tony Parker had Gary(toast) Payton as his defender.


I'm pinning my analysis on the fact that when Parker and Manu see that the guys defending the paint for the Suns are Amare and Marion, they look like they just won the lottery...I've never seen them get that look when Shaq is in the paint.



I'm pinning my analysis on the fact that Shaq is able to get away with more hard fouls, offensively and defensively than any player in the NBA...still.


I'm pinning my analysis on the fact that he's nearly killed Oberto the last two times they've been matched up...literally. He's put him in the hospital.


And finally...I'm pinning my analysis on the fact that even an old and slow post scorer is better in a half court setting than no post scorer.


It's really not that hard to figure out, and to me it's blatantly obvious that they'll match up better with us in a half court basket trading situation, as is often seen at the end of playoff games, than they ever have before.


Unless Shaq is hurt...



We'll see what happens...until we actually play them in the playoffs, it's all speculation.

[my2sons]

and all I am saying is that I am not sure if 25 games is enough time for dantoni to figure it out and for shag to figure it out. Manu had that great playoff game where he almost put shaq on is azz...on a move i will never forget that led to the famous tears from the lakeshow. To me manu is the x factor, because he can go off even on kobe

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

When is Shaq going to show up?


When the buffet line is open....

[picnroll]

Nov 7, 2007, Spurs vs Miami

Snaq 17 points, 3 rebounds, 1 assist. Parker 23 points, 8 assists. Ginobilli 25 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists. Yeah the big lunch bucket sure scared the hell out of Parker and Ginobilli.

[ducks]

I wants suns to make the playoffs I do not want them to have a chance to win the lottery

they will not go far in playoffs anyhow

[whottt]

Nov 7, 2007, Spurs vs Miami

Snaq 17 points, 3 rebounds, 1 assist. Parker 23 points, 8 assists. Ginobilli 25 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists. Yeah the big lunch bucket sure scared the hell out of Parker and Ginobilli.


48> 23
48> 25


Sin,

Math

[T Park]

??

[polandprzem]

1. We don't have to play them halfcourt (even if they are better then they were before) all night long
All in all shaq is unable to play 30+ minutes. Marion was.

2. They (MG, TP) can't penatrate with shaq? He will foul them?
Okay send them to the line. I just wonder how he can guard screen rolls on a top of a a key level. There where we match up.

So it will be adream matchup for Pop - run them with shaq on the floor, outhalfcort them, without that monster shaq in the paint.

btw good math 48>25

btw2. You play longer you can do more.

[whottt]

Shaq's never come out on a pick in his life...

Yeah it'd be one thing if he put them on the line, but he doesn't always. Just a bump from Shaq can lay some dudes out. He can still do that. It's not that easy to foul him out, and there is a price to be paid for it over the course of a series.

I'm not saying he's some insurmountable obstacle, I'm saying he's a hell of a lot more intimidating, physical, and punishing than Shawn Marion ever was.

If you were playing basketball, who would you rather get hit by, Shawn Marion, or Shaq O'Neal?

Ask Oberto who he prefers...the guys that let him go 11-11 from the field, or the guy that sent him to the hospital...this year.

[polandprzem]

Shaq's never come out on a pick in his life...
Wanna bet?

He did but was not much succesfull as he was slow to rotate, so he stuck with permieter guy on permiter.


Yeah it'd be one thing if he put them on the line, but he doesn't always. Just a bump from Shaq can lay some dudes out. He can still do that. It's not that easy to foul him out, and there is a price to be paid for it over the course of a series.
He can but what that gives him?
And he is not easy to foul out. I can agree with you when he is playing 25 minutes -> 4 fouls per contest.

And when we talk p&r that will provide some nasty amount of 10-15 foot jumpers. In those 25 minutes Tony and Manu can shoot some huh?


I'm not saying he's some insurmountable obstacle, I'm saying he's a hell of a lot more intimidating, physical, and punishing than Shawn Marion ever was.

If you were playing basketball, who would you rather get hit by, Shawn Marion, or Shaq O'Neal?

The real question is who you wanna be defended by.
Everybody can answer themselves.


Ask Oberto who he prefers...the guys that let him go 11-11 from the field, or the guy that sent him to the hospital...this year.
Oberto was in hospital?
Spurs lost?

And Oberto is our first or secon option in the team?

And with Kurt. Umm Pop - shaq in Kurt in, shaq out Oberto in.

[J.T.]

I wouldn't call Kurt Thomas a Shaq Stopper, but he can bang with him and won't shit his pants having to guard him.

[picnroll]

whottt has some fantasy of Shaq putting all the Spurs in the hospital. Juwan Howard has put more players in the hospital, maybe that's who you should really be worried about.

Shaq's never come out on a pick? He comes out all the time. You mean Shaq's never gotten back from coming out on a pick.

[whottt]

:yawn we'll just have to wait until they play...until then it's all speculation.

[picnroll]

bump :rollin

[whottt]

Hmmm...all you are proving to me is that

A. You seem to think this was a routine performance by Parker...it wasn't.
B. You seem to think Shaq sucks in this series...he doesn't.
C. That the decline of Steve Nash, something neither you, nor I, nor anyone else foresaw happening against us, isn't the main reason the Suns are losing this series.

Nash suddenly looks his age...last night was the worst playoff performance by Nash against us...it's why they now look dead...and it had almost nothing to do with Shaq.

PS: One of their starters are injured...read my comments again.



Meanwhile...I suggest you work real hard to understand that 16 points on 50% shooting, 8 boards, and nearly 3 blocks per game...doesn't suck....it's also not the reason the Suns are struggling.

[polandprzem]

Hmmm...all you are proving to me is that

A. You seem to think this was a routine performance by Parker...it wasn't.
B. You seem to think Shaq sucks in this series...he doesn't.
C. That the decline of Steve Nash, something neither you, nor I, nor anyone else foresaw happening against us, isn't the main reason the Suns are losing this series.

Nash suddenly looks his age...last night was the worst playoff performance by Nash against us...it's why they now look dead...and it had almost nothing to do with Shaq.

PS: One of their starters are injured...read my comments again.



Meanwhile...I suggest you work real hard to understand that 16 points on 50% shooting, 8 boards, and nearly 3 blocks per game...doesn't suck....it's also not the reason the Suns are struggling.

Umm he just bumped it.

Not that he had some kind of kode in these b u m p letters but I don't know.

[whottt]

Umm he just bumped it.

Not that he had some kind of kode in these b u m p letters but I don't know.


Brilliant deduction...now, tell me what the name of the thread is...then ask yourself, why am I here?

[picnroll]

Hmmm...all you are proving to me is that

A. You seem to think this was a routine performance by Parker...it wasn't.
B. You seem to think Shaq sucks in this series...he doesn't.
C. That the decline of Steve Nash, something neither you, nor I, nor anyone else foresaw happening against us, isn't the main reason the Suns are losing this series.

Nash suddenly looks his age...last night was the worst playoff performance by Nash against us...it's why they now look dead...and it had almost nothing to do with Shaq.

PS: One of their starters are injured...read my comments again.



Meanwhile...I suggest you work real hard to understand that 16 points on 50% shooting, 8 boards, and nearly 3 blocks per game...doesn't suck....it's also not the reason the Suns are struggling.
Spurs have successfully built an entire game plan around Shaq's inepititude and whottt still thinks it's a great signing. :lol

[whottt]

Spurs have successfully built an entire game plan around Shaq's inepititude and whottt still thinks it's a great signing. :lol


Shaq's not the reason the Suns are losing this series...only someone who doesn't know much about basketball would attempt to make that claim.

Seriously...your takes have the insight and knowledge of a SportsCenter recap..very superficial...you are seeing what you want to see and not what is actually happening.


Go look at all the newbies on the board...they sound just like you...


Steve Nash's age is showing...that's the main reason the Suns are losing this series.

[Warlord23]

Gimme a break whottt. Shaq is among the worst pick-n-roll defenders in the history of the league. Pop was probably waiting for the playoffs to expose this, and didn't want to reveal his cards in the regular season.

Anyway, its not like Parker sucked the first couple of games and turned it up yesterday. He's scored at will of the pick-n-roll in all 3 games, as has Manu. Shaq is defenseless: if he shows on the play, he is so slow that the screening big has all day to score off a dunk or a wide open jumper. If he hangs back the guard has an open shot. If they switch (something that Duncan/Oberto did nicely a couple of times and Nash couldn't score) he gets completely embarrassed by the guard.

He isn't athletic enough to do the one thing that would have made it difficult for the Spurs:trap the guard hard and force him outside the 3-point arc before running back to the paint, something the Spurs bigs are able to do. He isn't fast enough to at least contest on a switch. The Spurs have systematically destroyed him in multiple ways. At least Marion could have switched or trapped better. Shaq is just a sitting duck.

[tp2021]

Shaq's not the reason the Suns are losing this series...only someone who doesn't know much about basketball would attempt to make that claim.

He isn't helping them win, wither. The trade did not help them. Now they are stuck with this mountain of a man with an even larger salary, and an even LARGER ego.

[whottt]

I don't know what's funnier...

The fact that picnroll and Warlord think they are among the elite that "get" Shaq is a bad picnroll defender...


Or the fact that they think Phoenix actually defended the picnroll, hell defended anything well, before trading for Shaq. :lmao


Warlord...perhaps you can link me to a post of myself saying Shaq's picnroll defense is going to greatly help the Suns? Hint: Read this thread.



Oh wait...I know what the funniest thing is, the funniest thing is that you think Tony's night was a result of some kind of failure of the defensive execution of the Suns...when in fact, it was a result of them executing their defensive game plan exactly the way they wanted and getting Parker to do what they wanted.




But what's really funny is Tony Parker is referencing the same playoff series and experiences that I am as to why Shaq would be a factor and what's he's(Tony) is doing differently...while Shaq is doing the same things he did in 04 with LA, and he's still doing them effectively, 04 like when you know...his team came back on us after being down 0-2, in spite of the fact that he was a lazy defender even then.


And if you weren't in such a hurry to piss on the Suns that you piss on your own players, including last night's hero, in the process....you'd understand that what Tony Parker did last night was all about Tony Parker and his success...and had little or nothing to do with the Suns.


All that said...Steve Nash is growing old before our eyes, like has happened with several Spurs players before, and you guys don't even see it. He's been playing way past his age for a while now, I mean, do you even know how old he is?

He's starting to show his age.


That is the #1 A or #1 B factor in this series and in last nights game(along with Tony's night of course).


Steve Nash was the worst starter on the court for the Suns last night...you think about that for a second.

[polandprzem]

Play them the right way.

That all I was asking and I recived it in the playoffs

ql :tu

[polandprzem]

Brilliant deduction...now, tell me what the name of the thread is...then ask yourself, why am I here?

The reason you are mad is ...?

[whottt]

He isn't helping them win, wither. The trade did not help them. Now they are stuck with this mountain of a man with an even larger salary, and an even LARGER ego.


That is because of several other factors emerging at this time, that have little or nothing to do with Shaq...

I hate to you guys this...but Shaq played well last night.

[polandprzem]

I hate to you guys this...but Shaq played well last night.
nope


He played better in San Antonio

[whottt]

IOW, just because the Spurs are up 3-0, that don't mean you're right.

All you're doing is saying it's because of Shaq...

Oh wait...you're saying it's because the Phoenix Suns used to play D and now they don't :lmao

[whottt]

3-0 series leads should come up with warnings that they might make fas of those teams who don't know shit, think they know shit.

[nfg3]

Gimme a break whottt. Shaq is among the worst pick-n-roll defenders in the history of the league. Pop was probably waiting for the playoffs to expose this, and didn't want to reveal his cards in the regular season.

Anyway, its not like Parker sucked the first couple of games and turned it up yesterday. He's scored at will of the pick-n-roll in all 3 games, as has Manu. Shaq is defenseless: if he shows on the play, he is so slow that the screening big has all day to score off a dunk or a wide open jumper. If he hangs back the guard has an open shot. If they switch (something that Duncan/Oberto did nicely a couple of times and Nash couldn't score) he gets completely embarrassed by the guard.

He isn't athletic enough to do the one thing that would have made it difficult for the Spurs:trap the guard hard and force him outside the 3-point arc before running back to the paint, something the Spurs bigs are able to do. He isn't fast enough to at least contest on a switch. The Spurs have systematically destroyed him in multiple ways. At least Marion could have switched or trapped better. Shaq is just a sitting duck.

:tu


I don't blame Shaq for those traits. It is what it is. He's never defended the P/R effectively. Poor coaching? Maybe but also an indication of a lower BB IQ than previously believed? Probably since as a younger and more athletic player he could make up for his mistakes but now he can't. As a younger player he was virtually unstoppable but now he's hit a point in his career that he isn't capable of doing those things anymore. He's flat out too slow for Tony or Manu. Comes with age and carrying around 300+ lbs. His knees must be shot.

Also let's add a couple of other views. The Hack a Shaq is working. It not only reduces the Suns scoring - Shaq shot poorly from the line - but effectively destroys or severely hampers their team rhythm. This team wasn't in sync last night. They just couldn't get going and get into a rhythm. They need to do that in order to be effective. I believe that a secondary effect of the Hack a Shaq move was in disrupting their rhythm.

Amare isn't a very good help defender either. Low BB IQ. When Shaq gets beaten on the P/R there isn't any help. Either the help is too late or nonexistent.

We're looking at a possible sweep or 4-1 exit on their part. This wasn't expected in the beginning. Far from it. This was going to be epic. Instant ESPN classic. Best first round series ever. Now a possible sweep?!

Oh Stevie if you could have a mulligan what would it be?

Shaq - How the mighty have fallen.

[polandprzem]

whottt you are talking to yourself?

[spursfaninla]

Shaq scored well last night.

He stayed out of foul trouble.

He defended well in weak side defense and in the post.

However, and what I think Whott is ignoring..

He, especially when paired with Nash, were DESTROYED by the PnR. I would like to see the scoring % on them, it must be like 75%...

Sure, that was not why he was brought in...but it can't be ignored like it didn't matter. Like it doesn't counter-balance his positive impact on the game, and doesn't expose how, overall, he was a hindrance to his team.

TRUE, if Grant Hill is Healthy, that matchup is harder to produce b/c grant hill guards parker, and makes that PNR harder to exploit.

Yet, that reality was not before us, and in this world the Nash/Shaq defensive combo in the PNR was a disaster for Phx.

That, and Nash was uncharacteristically knocked off his stride by Bowen; normally Nash is clutch as hell and like nails in general. He did still have 9 assists, but his scoring was amazingly limited. Good job Bowen.

Its not like Shaq sucks overall, but his impact in the game was nearly negated by his bad free throw shooting and his defensive limitations, if not turned into a negative psychologically speaking for the rest of his team mates.

Phx has, in the past, been able to play stretches of some defense, don't kid yourself whott; the spurs found an area that phx has a HUGE liability that could not be sewn up, and that gaping wound has yet to be stitched up. Their current roster does not really have an answer to it.

[whottt]

Yeah...but you guys are basically claiming that this series would be much more in the favor of the Suns if Marion was here instead of Shaq...

I think you guys are clearly on crack. Shaq's been a hundred times the factor Shawn Marion ever was...get fucking serious.

[polandprzem]

Yeah...but you guys are basically claiming that this series would be much more in the favor of the Suns if Marion was here instead of Shaq...

I think you guys are clearly on crack. Shaq's been a hundred times the factor Shawn Marion ever was...get fucking serious.

Shaq was 100 times the factor Marion was?


It is mostly that Suns gained inside but lost outside.

If Marion was in the game spurs would be 5-0 in the series instead of 3-0?

[Xylus]

If it makes any difference, I agree with what Whottt's been saying.

I called my buddy last night after the game and we talked about the game for like an hour. We both came to the immediate conclusion that Shaq played a good game, kept Tim Duncan from dominating us, prevented a lot of points in the paint (only 28 scored in the paint for the Spurs last night), stayed out of foul trouble, etc.

Nash, on the other hand, was 100% non-existent in last night's game. Our playoff warrior, our leader, our clutch shooter, our go-to guy when things are looking bad, gave up on the game and the team last night, leaving Leandro Barbosa to pick up the fucking pieces in the 4th quarter. D'Antoni might as well have started DJ Strawberry and brought Nash off the bench. At least then, DJ's solid D would have prevented Parker from going off to the tune of 85 points, 73 assists, 21 rebounds, 16 steals, 2 blocks, and 1 demoralized counterpart.

Last night was the first time I've seen Steve Nash give up on the Phoenix Suns.

[Warlord23]

People need to stop taking whottt seriously. Since his "Cavs over Spurs in 5" arguments, you know he lives in a parallel basketball universe.

Bottomline, this isn't about this series itself. After Shaq joined the Suns they had a lot of trouble defending perimeter oriented teams. Pop just made sure he temporarily eliminated 4-down from the playbook and added a few variations of screen-and-roll.

I'm not saying Marion would have been an improvement, because then we would be seeing less pick-n-roll, more 4-down. Basically with Marion, Duncan would kill them. With Shaq, Parker and Ginobili get to wield the sword.

The Suns have defensive deficiencies in either case. However several posters on this board claimed that Shaq would give them the upper hand. Just before the series started I argued that changing the "inside-out" attack to "outside-in" was all the Spurs needed to do to regain dominance. QED.

[whottt]

This is not a tongue and cheek argument...I'm saying Shaq is a better playoff player and more difficult match up problem for us, even now, than Shawn Marion ever was or will be...he's also more of a leader.


Anyone that thinks otherwise really wasn't paying attention during the Marion years of the Suns. Shawn Marion had jack shit to do with their success against us and everything to do with their failure...he was the weakest link...Steve Nash wasn't even close to being the weakest link...and he is now...and Shaq hasn't been anything close to being the weakest link in this series...I'd say he's been the second best player in this series for the Suns..at worst, at the absolute worst he's been the third best.

[timvp]

I thought Shaq was good in Games 1 and 2. In Game 3, Shaq went into sweep mode. Even then, he still wasn't the reason they lost. Stoudemire is an even worse pick-and-roll defender and worse post defender. Shaq was bad but he wasn't the worst player and he wasn't a top three reason why they lost.

Oh and I like how picnroll threw Duncan under the bus during the regular season as the excuse for why Shaq and the Suns beat the Spurs during the regular season. Didn't see much picnroll posts after Duncan went wild in Game 1. I guess Duncan wasn't as done as picnroll made him out to be.

[BiZNicK]

lol @ the idea of...

Shaq = The answer

[picnroll]

I thought Shaq was good in Games 1 and 2. In Game 3, Shaq went into sweep mode. Even then, he still wasn't the reason they lost. Stoudemire is an even worse pick-and-roll defender and worse post defender. Shaq was bad but he wasn't the worst player and he wasn't a top three reason why they lost.

Oh and I like how picnroll threw Duncan under the bus during the regular season as the excuse for why Shaq and the Suns beat the Spurs during the regular season. Didn't see much picnroll posts after Duncan went wild in Game 1. I guess Duncan wasn't as done as picnroll made him out to be.

I haven't been able to watch but a few minutes of each game. For work ressons. I did have my doubts of Duncan usual abioiy to conisitly dominate a game the way he had in years past. I still think he's slipping there and becoming increasingly dependent on his co-stars.

Shaq played well in game 1. I thought he hardly played from foul trouble trouble and being taken off the floor in crunch time because he's an inept FT shooter, something that will undoubtedly be exploited one more time this year as a key piece of the Spurs shaqling the Suns.

[kobe_bryant]

picnroll

know your roll and leave