San Antonio's BIG FOUR

[genomefreak13]

The Lakers, Mavericks, Suns made their efforts to duplicate and to counter SA's "big three" but I think they failed. They might be able to to have their Big three but I doubt that they matched what SA did. What they failed to recognize is that the big three is really the BIG FOUR - composed of Duncan , Ginobili, Parker and Bowen.

Duncan is arguably the best power forward in the league right now offensively and defensively. Shaq isn't what he used to be. Nowitzki kind of play is more of a SF than a PF (so I doubt if he could contest duncan in the post). Stoudamire is the closest that could counter Duncan in the post, but I think he still need a lot of maturing before he could consistently win against Timmy.

Ginobili, in my opinion, is the most productive player in Basketball. He's a threat defensively and offensively. Although Kobe is ahead of him statistically, Gino is still at par with him in terms of offensive talent. Jason Terry (Mr. fourth quarter for Dallas) and Manu provides cardiac shots for their respective teams, but Terry lacks the defensive intensity that Ginobili provides for his team. Raja bell is a defensive specialist but isn't considered as big an offensive threat as Manu.

Parker is one of the greatest offensive guards today. Virtually a flash because of his speed and accuracy in the paint. He can either be a primary option in offense or a playmaker. He's as fast and clever as Nash but physically superior than the latter. Kidd is in the same league as Nash in terms of his passing- but he is no longer an defensive threat against Parker. Fisher is probably is the only person that can guard him, but he is already passe and might be unable to do it anymore consistency.

Bowen is the most consistent and flexible defender in the league. He can guard the likes of Iverson, Anthony, James , Bryant, Nowitzki , and Nash. In my books, no one has equaled bowen's accuracy and skill in defending people. He is the fourth member of the BIG FOUR which other teams failed to duplicate. They may have the more or the same amount of fire power as the spurs , but they never had the same defensive power as the spurs.

in your opinion, considering Bowen's contribution to SA does he deserve to be included in the "BIGS" of San Antonio? In making their moves, how well did the other teams match up against SA's BIG four?

[Ghost Writer]

Relax.

[TampaDude]

Oh...THAT big four...I though you were talking about titles... :lol

[smeagol]

Relax.

Don't do it . . .

[genomefreak13]

Relax.

Just wanted to know what other think about players match up against the spurs :spin

[duncan228]

Don't do it . . .

"When you want to come..."

We're dating ourselves by knowing the lyrics! :lol

[eisfeld]

Constitent or not, the Spurs have the Big "Three" not the Big "Four"...

[genomefreak13]

Constitent or not, the Spurs have the Big "Three" not the Big "Four"...

Got reasons to come along with that?

[ancestron]

Is that song about Tantra?

[101A]

"When you want to come..."

We're dating ourselves by knowing the lyrics! :lolShit.

I hadn't noticed.

Now I got that stuck in my head.

[2centsworth]

Bruce is one of the most underappreciated players ever. His ability to marginalize the other teams best player helps the Spurs bridge whatever talent gap there may be. Plus, down the stretch of games he's a difference maker. He's going to have his Jersey retired, so with all that being said, I guess "Big" is fitting.

[oboymeetsogirl]

Agreed. Spurs really are a Big Four, despite the common assumption. Timmy, Tony and Manu may be phenomenal, but defense is what has gotten the Spurs through the playoffs when the going got tough during the championship runs. Seriously, I'm not sure if the Spurs would have gotten their last two rings without Bruce's in-your-face D against each and every team's best perimeters. I watched the Lakers whip the Mavs yesterday (Kobe going off for 52) and couldn't help but think that this wouldn't be happening if Bowen was on Bryant. Kobe knew the Mavs had absolutely no one to stop him, and rabid dog that he is he went in for the kill every time down the court.

This is why the Spurs really are a Big Four. Without a Kobe killer, a Lebron stopper, an A.I. muzzler, etc. like Bowen, I'm just not sure we'd be the champions everyone is clamoring to imitate that we are.

[urunobili]

i have always said that it could be disrespectful to Bruce to talk all the time about the big three when he is as valuable as Manu and Tony to the team... Tim is simply on another level...they truly are the big four... i believe in that...

[duncan228]

Shit.

I hadn't noticed.

Now I got that stuck in my head.

This probably won't help. :lol

mgEdFXJ-huw

[Ghost Writer]

Got reasons to come along with that?
Bruce Bowen #12 Forward


2007-08 Statistics
PPG 5.7
RPG 2.70
APG 1.2
MPG 30
Born: Jun 14, 1971


These are easily the worse stats for any starting SF in the League.

And Bowen can't keep up with the best perimeter players this season.

Udoku™ does the same thing in half the time.

Need I say more?

[genomefreak13]

Bruce Bowen #12 Forward


2007-08 Statistics
PPG 5.7
RPG 2.70
APG 1.2
MPG 30
Born: Jun 14, 1971


These are easily the worse stats for any starting SF in the League.

And Bowen can't keep up with the best perimeter players this season.

Udoku™ does the same thing in half the time.

Need I say more?


That the reason why Bowen is so underrated as a player, he's always looked upon in an offensive point of view, rather than his overall effect on the game. Admit it or not most of the things he do isn't reflected on stats. But if that's the way you look at it, then we can't change that.

But just to be sure, can you compare L.JAMES SCORING STATS in the finals and Playoffs of 07?

[TampaDude]

"When you want to come..."

We're dating ourselves by knowing the lyrics! :lol

:lol Frankie say...

[smeagol]

Shit.

I hadn't noticed.

Now I got that stuck in my head.

Key song in one of the best movies of all time: Zoolander

[oboymeetsogirl]

Bowen's "stats?" Who cares about his stats? When we play the Lakers it's Kobe's stats we need to worry about. When we're up against the Suns, it's Nash's stats that we need to shut down.

True Spurs fans know it's not about stats, but rather team chemistry and D. Bruce is indispensible to the task of controlling the other teams' perimeter superstars. There's just no one better, as every other player and every coach in the league very well know. Big time players like Kobe relish the opportunity to go against the best like Bruce. Wannabe players like Jason Terry and whiny players like Vince Carter are the ones that moan and groan every time they see Bowen coming their way. You can't beat that... stats don't mean a damned thing on the court where the game is played and won!

[JamStone]

I wouldn't consider Bruce Bowen part a major player for the Spurs to be considered having a "Big Four." However, he's an invaluable role player and has been for many years and he certainly earns his salary. He's not an absolute lock-down defender anymore, but then again in today's NBA where you can't so much as put a pinky on an offensive player without getting a foul, I don't believe there are any lock-down perimeter defenders anymore. As I said, Bruce is a great role player, a glue guy. But, if Bruce Bowen went down and missed a bunch of games, the Spurs would not feel the effect they would when and if Tim, Tony, or Manu go down. They just wouldn't, and especially with Udoka demonstrating he can hold his own in doing what Bruce does.

I don't want to downplay what Bruce has done for the Spurs over the years and even this year, but I wouldn't consider him one of a "Big Four" for the Spurs.

[eisfeld]

Got reasons to come along with that?

Bruce is indeed a stellar defender and one reason for the Spurs success but he is not one of the main reasons. Without Tim, Tony or Manu the Spurs would be nothing but an underdog for the title. Without Bruce they're still a contender. I don't wan't to play down what Bruce does for the Spurs, but considering what people refer to as the big xyz he does not qualify for this category. Or would you say the Rockets got the Big Three because they have Yao, McGrady and Battier?

[oboymeetsogirl]

I just can't agree about Bruce not being essential to Spurs championships, past, present and future. In the playoffs in which it takes six or seven games to put down a team (re the Suns and Mavs in the past, and possibly the Lakers and Jazz this year), keeping a Bryant, a Nash or Williams from exploding for 40 or more points, or 10 or more assists, is often what has made a difference between a 95 to 92 win or a 92 to 95 loss.

I'm convinced that we probably wouldn't have won our last two championships without Bruce. Obviously he's on his last legs, and I hope Udoka (or someone else) develops into an heir apparent. Heck, ask any of the Spurs. When they have to go up against other top defensive stoppers they know they may not be having a big offensive game that night. So what do they do? They fall back on the patented Spurs defense to pull out the win. If making the defensive stops is what's gotten them their rings, and if Bruce and Timmy are the Spurs' premier defensive stoppers, you can actually make a case for the fact that San Antonio is really a "Big Two": Duncan and Bowen!

[genomefreak13]

Bruce is indeed a stellar defender and one reason for the Spurs success but he is not one of the main reasons. Without Tim, Tony or Manu the Spurs would be nothing but an underdog for the title. Without Bruce they're still a contender. I don't wan't to play down what Bruce does for the Spurs, but considering what people refer to as the big xyz he does not qualify for this category. Or would you say the Rockets got the Big Three because they have Yao, McGrady and Battier?

Thanks for the reasoned other point of view. I don't contest that Spurs would be nothing if Duncan, Manu and Parker wasn't in it. I don't see them winning that way either. My only point in mentioning Bruce is that I believe that he played as much part in the Success of San Antonio as the three other players mentioned. If Lebron was to have his way in the Finals last year , do you think the spurs would have won it all the way?

I beg to differ, but It's just to obvious to ignore that stopping the other teams leading scorer is a big thing in winning games. That is what makes Bruce deserving to be part of the elite.

Most teams agree to the saying the "offense win you games but defense win you championship" - I think , if you apply this on the individual level - Bruce would be given his due. Many players can score but we seldom see guys like him, who could shut down a great player offensively.

If the Rockets is as successful as the spurs and Shane played a big part of it (like bowen did) , I would say in a heartbeat that they have a big three.

[vanvannen]

Dude, do you really want your thread to keep in the first page that badly?
Every time it starts going down you pump it up with another post.

Relax, don't do it.

[genomefreak13]

Dude, do you really want your thread to keep in the first page that badly?
Every time it starts going down you pump it up with another post.

Relax, don't do it.

Your helping me do it :lol

[vanvannen]

:toast

[smeagol]

Bowen's "stats?" Who cares about his stats?

Didn't you get the memo?

Basketball is about stats, dunks, tatoos and headbands . . .

[Ghost Writer]

Who has he slowed down or stopped this year.

Still waiting.

[genomefreak13]

Who has he slowed down or stopped this year.

Still waiting.

Jason Terry :lol

[oboymeetsogirl]

Nah, this is a good multi-page thread. Bruce deserves his props; and while many Spurs fans know that D is what has gotten them the championships, they still over-emphasize offense and stats in their thinking when it comes to valuing players. Heck, most of the rest of the NBA do the same thing. Players "talk" D, but put little effort into it, and coaches hardly put enough work into implementing it. It's all about points and highlight reels.

But we can't say this enough: if defense wins championships, Bowen could very well be the Most Valuable Player, not just part of a Big Four. Just look at what he did last year against A.I., Williams, Nash and finally Lebron. No way anyone could stop these guys, but for sure Bowen kept them from going crazy. Parker got the MVP in the end, but in my mind it never would have happened without Bruce!

[genomefreak13]

Didn't you get the memo?

Basketball is about stats, dunks, tatoos and headbands . . .

I thought it was all about winning and losing...and what cause winning and losing
:lol

[Herschel Walker]

Is that song about Tantra?
Relax, don't do it... When you want to suck to it.
Relax, don't do it... When you want to cum...

Sounds more like it's about not blowin your load early, or maybe about women who can't come because they're too uptight or have mental block.

[Ghost Writer]

Jeezuskrist.

Those numbers are inexcusable.

And Bowen is not the shut-down defender you people make him out to be.

Yesterday, he was a day late and a dollar short against Carter. Bowen's lost a step.

[genomefreak13]

Relax, don't do it... When you want to suck to it.
Relax, don't do it... When you want to cum...

Sounds more like it's about not blowin your load early, or maybe about women who can't come because they're too uptight or have mental block.

:lol :lol

[SpurAddict561]

You can't judge Bowen by his stats...that that just isn't fair.

The fear he strikes in most star players causing them to play out of sync is unmatched.

They don't keep track of that.........

[genomefreak13]

Jeezuskrist.

Those numbers are inexcusable.

And Bowen is not the shut-down defender you people make him out to be.

Yesterday, he was a day late and a dollar short against Carter. Bowen's lost a step.

Maybe yes -maybe not. But I defer my judgment on that till the end of the season. Whatever his number say, It still doesn't say the fact of how important bowen is to the Spurs' defense. Hustle and great defense can't be measure by stats.

[wildbill2u]

Maybe we have a Big 3.6777777

[smeagol]

Sounds more like it's about not blowin your load early, or maybe about women who can't come because they're too uptight or have mental block.

For some reason, I don't think that song was about women . . .

Call it a hunch.

[kuato]

Don't do it . . . ---> Take it eaaaaaaaaaaasyyyyy
:smokin

[Ghost Writer]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyl5DlrsU90

Shoot you with my laser beams.

[thebigchill]

I think "big twelve" has a "ring" to it personally. Hell, four rings! :king

[ancestron]

Relax, don't do it... When you want to suck to it.
Relax, don't do it... When you want to cum...

Sounds more like it's about not blowin your load early, or maybe about women who can't come because they're too uptight or have mental block.

All this time I thought it was about the lost art of redirecting an orgasm.
Who cares if you blow your load early?

[urunobili]

i really don;t understand all the people being unappreciative on Bruce's contribution... even worse.. the ones that are saying that he should be measured by stats sound like Hawks fans... 4 real... a better way to measure his contribution would be to check the effect he has on the people he guards, their stats when playing on him vs. when not... until this year... i would say on the regular season he always did it great... i sense Bruce for the first time is pacing himself to have the tank as full as he cans come playoff time since he realized he won't ever be given the DPOY award... to to y'all GW and haters saying he is done... he'll show you the juice come playoff time and I'll bookmark this thread to remind y'all premature ejaculation judgments! :nope

[Herschel Walker]

For some reason, I don't think that song was about women . . .

Call it a hunch.

Just threw that in for the hell of it. I prefer to tailor the meaning as far away from guy lovin as possible.

[oboymeetsogirl]

If the NBA for you really is about stats, dunks, headbands and tatoos, the Nuggets (not the Spurs) are the team for you. Personally (and I respect everyone's preferences), I can't help but favor the blue collar, team oriented organizations like the Spurs and the Jazz, and workmanlike stars like Duncan, Bowen, Williams, Nash, Billups and Garnett (and the Stocktons, Malones, Birds and Jordans of the past). I dislike the Lakers (even though I'm a former Southern Californian and Laker fan) and the Cavs bore me, but I begrudgingly respect the work ethic and make-no-excuse attitudes of ballers like Kobe and Lebron.

But the accomplishments of guys like Bowen do not show up on the sheets. That's too bad, but the reality in the NBA these days is this: no lockdown defense, no title. There are just too many insanely good offensive superstars, and if you can't do anything about them you might as well lay down and let them run over you.

[genomefreak13]

If the NBA for you really is about stats, dunks, headbands and tatoos, the Nuggets (not the Spurs) are the team for you. Personally (and I respect everyone's preferences), I can't help but favor the blue collar, team oriented organizations like the Spurs and the Jazz, and workmanlike stars like Duncan, Bowen, Williams, Nash, Billups and Garnett (and the Stocktons, Malones, Birds and Jordans of the past). I dislike the Lakers (even though I'm a former Southern Californian and Laker fan) and the Cavs bore me, but I begrudgingly respect the work ethic and make-no-excuse attitudes of ballers like Kobe and Lebron.

But the accomplishments of guys like Bowen do not show up on the sheets. That's too bad, but the reality in the NBA these days is this: no lockdown defense, no title. There are just too many insanely good offensive superstars, and if you can't do anything about them you might as well lay down and let them run over you.

:elephant :elephant :elephant :downspin:

[timvp]

In a past life I could easily imagine GW as a Celtics fan who tried to prove Bill Russell was overrated by pointing at his stats.

[WalterBenitez]

Oh...THAT big four...I though you were talking about titles... :lol

Beatles? ah ... no they were from Liverpool.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

This probably won't help. :lol

mgEdFXJ-huw

:lmao
I knew the song from Zoolander, but I've never seen this video. These guys were geniusses, they predicted Gladiator, Moulin Rouge, Zoolander, Brokeback Mountain and the Dallas Mavericks in a four-minute-long music video.

[thiste]

But just to be sure, can you compare L.JAMES SCORING STATS in the finals and Playoffs of 07?

I'll do it.

LeBron's average line in the Washington series
- 27.7 pts, 8.5 rbs, 7.5 ast, 1.75 stls, .75 blk, 1.75 turnovers.
- Percentages :8.5/20 (.425) FG, 1/3.75 (.267) 3P, .813 FT
- Hollinger Game Score avg = 24.575

LeBron's average line in the Nets series :
- 24.6 pts, 7.33 rbs, 8.5 ast, 1.17 stls, .33 blk, 2.83 turnovers.
- Percentages : 7.8/18.5 (.423) FG, 1.33/4.33 (.308) 3P, .754 FT
- Hollinger Game Score avg = 19.97

LeBron's average line in the Detroit series :
- 25.6 pts, 9.17 rbs, 8.5 ast, 2.67 stls, .5 blk, 3.17 turnovers.
- Percentages : 8.83/19.67 (.449) FG, .83/2.33 (.357) 3P, .741 FT
- Hollinger Game Score avg = 22.92

total of those 3 series BEFORE San Antonio :
- 26.03 pts, 8.33 rbs, 8.17 ast, 1.86 stls, .53 blk, 2.58 turnovers.
- Percentages : 8.38/19.39 (.432) FG, 1.39/3.47 (.311) 3P, .769 FT
- Hollinger Game Score avg = 22.488


LeBron's average line versus San Antonio :
- 22 pts, 7 rbs, 6.75 ast, 1 stl, .5 blk, 5.75 turnovers.
- Percentages : 8/22.5 (.356) FG, 1/5.5 (.182) 3P, .690 FT
- Hollinger Game Score avg = 10.575

In short, he was worse in every single statistical category : minus 4 points, 1.33 rbs and 1.42 ast from his playoffs average. All his percentages drop dramatically and his turnovers are more than doubled. His game score is less than half his playoffs average.

That's Bruce Bowen's stats for you here sir :)

(data taken from basketball-reference.com)

[CarefreeAZ]

The Lakers, Mavericks, Suns made their efforts to duplicate and to counter SA's "big three" but I think they failed.

Technically, the Suns HAD a big three combination for the past 3 plus years(Nash,Marion,Stoudemire) until they traded for Shaq. Our trade wasn't to duplicate as we already had a 3 core nucleus. We just happened to have someone who was not happy with their role as the third option and felt they should garner more respect.

[greens]

I've always thought it should be The Big Four...I think I even had started a thread about it a while back...

Bruce is really important to the Spurs. I don't think he gets enough credit for what he does on a nightly basis and especially in the Playoffs. He's the best perimeter defender in the league. He showed that in the Finals in 2007 against LeBron...and against Steve Nash in the playoffs too. Also, let's remember the 2005 championship, his defense on Richard Hamilton was key. And also the block vs Chauncey Billups right when it mattered, during clutch time.

It's a shame he has not won the Defensive Player of the Year Award...

[genomefreak13]

I'll do it.

LeBron's average line in the Washington series
- 27.7 pts, 8.5 rbs, 7.5 ast, 1.75 stls, .75 blk, 1.75 turnovers.
- Percentages :8.5/20 (.425) FG, 1/3.75 (.267) 3P, .813 FT
- Hollinger Game Score avg = 24.575

LeBron's average line in the Nets series :
- 24.6 pts, 7.33 rbs, 8.5 ast, 1.17 stls, .33 blk, 2.83 turnovers.
- Percentages : 7.8/18.5 (.423) FG, 1.33/4.33 (.308) 3P, .754 FT
- Hollinger Game Score avg = 19.97

LeBron's average line in the Detroit series :
- 25.6 pts, 9.17 rbs, 8.5 ast, 2.67 stls, .5 blk, 3.17 turnovers.
- Percentages : 8.83/19.67 (.449) FG, .83/2.33 (.357) 3P, .741 FT
- Hollinger Game Score avg = 22.92

total of those 3 series BEFORE San Antonio :
- 26.03 pts, 8.33 rbs, 8.17 ast, 1.86 stls, .53 blk, 2.58 turnovers.
- Percentages : 8.38/19.39 (.432) FG, 1.39/3.47 (.311) 3P, .769 FT
- Hollinger Game Score avg = 22.488


LeBron's average line versus San Antonio :
- 22 pts, 7 rbs, 6.75 ast, 1 stl, .5 blk, 5.75 turnovers.
- Percentages : 8/22.5 (.356) FG, 1/5.5 (.182) 3P, .690 FT
- Hollinger Game Score avg = 10.575

In short, he was worse in every single statistical category : minus 4 points, 1.33 rbs and 1.42 ast from his playoffs average. All his percentages drop dramatically and his turnovers are more than doubled. His game score is less than half his playoffs average.

That's Bruce Bowen's stats for you here sir :)

(data taken from basketball-reference.com)

Thanks! the numbers really proved my point.

LEsson for the day :If you want to determine the effect of Bowen to the spurs all you have to do is to look at the other players stats NOT Bowen's own stats. :toast