I'm calling it now..

[George Gervin's Afro]

That a significant portion of Clinton's voters are more aligned with McCain's point of view than with Obama's. This will be one of a few reasons why Obama gets smashed in the General election...

I am one of those who is more aligned with McCain than Obama..

You heard it here first..

[some_user86]

Reasoning? Obama's and Clinton's programs are nearly identical.

[Nbadan]

There's a lot about McCain you don't know...

[George Gervin's Afro]

Reasoning? Obama's and Clinton's programs are nearly identical.


I have always liked McCain because , at worst, he's Republican lite and he consistently poked Bush and his cronies in the eye whenever he had the chance.. He called Bush tax cuts as he saw them plus he regularly pissed of the Talk radio crowd. Anyone who catches the wrath of Yawn Whannity and Hush boy is a favorite of mine..

[JohnnyMarzetti]

That a significant portion of Clinton's voters are more aligned with McCain's point of view than with Obama's. This will be one of a few reasons why Obama gets smashed in the General election...

I am one of those who is more aligned with McCain than Obama..

You heard it here first..

Then for vote for McCain and STFU!! There is so much anti hillary hate out there that she'll get killed in the general election. No doubt about it.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Then for vote for McCain and STFU!! There is so much anti hillary hate out there that she'll get killed in the general election. No doubt about it.


Look little johnny Obama and clinton are BOTH fatally flawed candidates.. How many times have you fainted when Obama ha spoken?

[some_user86]

I have always liked McCain because , at worst, he's Republican lite and he consistently poked Bush and his cronies in the eye whenever he had the chance.. He called Bush tax cuts as he saw them plus he regularly pissed of the Talk radio crowd. Anyone who catches the wrath of Yawn Whannity and Hush boy is a favorite of mine..

I dunno... I consider Obama to be a more palatable version of Hilary. Almost exactly the same policies.

I feel that McCain has lost a lot of his McCain streak between 2000 and 2008. Somewhere in there, he became from railing Falliwell to giving a speech at Liberty U. He became Bush-lite, and he's withdrawn his view of the tax cuts to be more in line with Bush's views. That's not what the country needs. We can't afford these deficits. Basically, since it is my money being affected in the top 1%, I am saying "Tax me!" But no one wants to. Oh, and since he would be taking more of my money, I would appreciate it if we not put a base in Iraq for the next 100 years so that the Iraqis have a continuous reason to have opposition against the indigenous government, a la Saudi Arabia.

[boutons_]

Clinton's and Obama's supporters have said they will support whomever is Dem nominee.

thanks to 7 years of dubya's disasters, the Dems are now and will continue to turn out in much higher numbers than Repugs.s

The Repugs are crossing over to Hillary to distract the campaign, and they'd rather destroy Hillary than face Obama.

[some_user86]

Clinton's and Obama's supporters have said they will support whomever is Dem nominee.

thanks to 7 years of dubya's disasters, the Dems are now and will continue to turn out in much higher numbers than Repugs.s

The Repugs are crossing over to Hillary to distract the campaign, and they'd rather destroy Hillary than face Obama.

There was excitement in 1988 for the Democratic party too. November is a loooooong way to go. Don't declare any victories yet. It can change very, very quickly.

[xrayzebra]

I dunno... I consider Obama to be a more palatable version of Hilary. Almost exactly the same policies.

I feel that McCain has lost a lot of his McCain streak between 2000 and 2008. Somewhere in there, he became from railing Falliwell to giving a speech at Liberty U. He became Bush-lite, and he's withdrawn his view of the tax cuts to be more in line with Bush's views. That's not what the country needs. We can't afford these deficits. Basically, since it is my money being affected in the top 1%, I am saying "Tax me!" But no one wants to. Oh, and since he would be taking more of my money, I would appreciate it if we not put a base in Iraq for the next 100 years so that the Iraqis have a continuous reason to have opposition against the indigenous government, a la Saudi Arabia.

Just make that old check out to Government of the
United States and America and show it in the memo
as a donation to your country. They will gladly take it.
And you are welcome for the information. I forgot,
send to IRS Austin, Texas.

[some_user86]

Just make that old check out to Government of the
United States and America and show it in the memo
as a donation to your country. They will gladly take it.
And you are welcome for the information. I forgot,
send to IRS Austin, Texas.

My family is in the lower part of the top 1%. We are not donating anything to the government until the whole group moves first.

[xrayzebra]

My family is in the lower part of the top 1%. We are not donating anything to the government until the whole group moves first.

Oh, I just thought you should pay more to your government.
Sorry, I mis-understood. Didn't know you wanted
others to donate too.....
:lol

[some_user86]

Oh, I just thought you should pay more to your government.
Sorry, I mis-understood. Didn't know you wanted
others to donate too.....
:lol

I am willing to help the country, but compared to the billions Mr. Bush wasted (given the faith I gave in him when I supported him in 2000 and voted for him in 2004, I am a little peeved), my petty amount isn't going to change anything until all of us in the 1% are taxed together. We are not that rich.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Oh, I just thought you should pay more to your government.
Sorry, I mis-understood. Didn't know you wanted
others to donate too.....
:lol


ray what in the hell are you doing awake at this hour?

[xrayzebra]

ray what in the hell are you doing awake at this hour?

Had to pee.......
:rolleyes

[DarkReign]

Clinton's and Obama's supporters have said they will support whomever is Dem nominee.

thanks to 7 years of dubya's disasters, the Dems are now and will continue to turn out in much higher numbers than Repugs.s

The Repugs are crossing over to Hillary to distract the campaign, and they'd rather destroy Hillary than face Obama.

Youre delusional. McCain wins BIG in November thanks in large part to dumbass Dems and their inability to stand behind one candidate, not two.

Annnnnd, maybe a little shout out to the 2.7million Dems in Texas, when only 1.3million voted Repub.

Hmmm, wonder what happened there?

[Evan]

Clinton's and Obama's supporters have said they will support whomever is Dem nominee.

thanks to 7 years of dubya's disasters, the Dems are now and will continue to turn out in much higher numbers than Repugs.s

The Repugs are crossing over to Hillary to distract the campaign, and they'd rather destroy Hillary than face Obama.

Most Obama supporters I know will go for McCain if she wins. Including me.

[101A]

I dunno... I consider Obama to be a more palatable version of Hilary. Almost exactly the same policies.

I feel that McCain has lost a lot of his McCain streak between 2000 and 2008. Somewhere in there, he became from railing Falliwell to giving a speech at Liberty U. He became Bush-lite, and he's withdrawn his view of the tax cuts to be more in line with Bush's views. That's not what the country needs. We can't afford these deficits. Basically, since it is my money being affected in the top 1%, I am saying "Tax me!" But no one wants to. Oh, and since he would be taking more of my money, I would appreciate it if we not put a base in Iraq for the next 100 years so that the Iraqis have a continuous reason to have opposition against the indigenous government, a la Saudi Arabia.I call bullshit.

If you were truly in the top 1%; you would be being taxed - at nearly a 40% clip; paying a higher percentage than any other American. The statement "Tax Me!" doesn't jibe with that. "I can do more", or "I didn't need the cut at the time!", I might believe, but "Tax Me" sounds like the rant of someone who has never shouldered the actual tax burden of a person in the top 1%.

McCain has always supported spending cuts to correspond to the tax cuts; that's why he didn't support them in the first place. Repealing those tax cuts now, however, on the cusp or during a recession, would be foolhardy.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Most Obama supporters I know will go for McCain if she wins. Including me.


I know Clinton supporters who feel the same way..They would vote for McCain if she loses..

[rascal]

Just make that old check out to Government of the
United States and America and show it in the memo
as a donation to your country. They will gladly take it.
And you are welcome for the information. I forgot,
send to IRS Austin, Texas.

I won't see any changes to my pay check no matter who wins in November.
I haven't seen any big tax breaks in my pay check from Bush being in office.

[101A]

I know Clinton supporters who feel the same way..They would vote for McCain if she loses..Oh crap, and this is BEFORE the campaign has gotten really ugly.


Only Democrats could elect a Republican in this environment. I honestly didn't think it was possible.

[xrayzebra]

I won't see any changes to my pay check no matter who wins in November.
I haven't seen any big tax breaks in my pay check from Bush being in office.

Do you pay any taxes? Serious question. If you are not
making enough to pay, nope, you want see any difference.

[Evan]

I know Clinton supporters who feel the same way..They would vote for McCain if she loses..

I don't see that at all. Obama has a lot of party fence sitters that can go to either side.

[101A]

I won't see any changes to my pay check no matter who wins in November.
I haven't seen any big tax breaks in my pay check from Bush being in office.Then nobody did.

EVERY single tax bracket got a multiple point decrease in rate with the tax cuts. The largest % went to the lowest brackets - a full 33% decrease from 15 to 10%. The top tax bracket, by comparison, received a 12% decrease, but is STILL at 35% - 3 and a half times more "progressive" than the bottom rate.

So, either you don't pay attention, you never paid taxes, OR more likely, you made the horrible mistake of earning more money, and moved into a higher tax bracket - paying a MUCH higher percentage. If that is the case, congratulations on you productivity. BTW, in the higher bracket, you will NOW certainly feel the increase if the tax cuts are repealed.

[Sportcamper]

Did anyone ever hear of Barrack Hussein Obama six months ago?

[101A]

Did anyone ever hear of Barrack Hussein Obama six months ago? This guy thought he did:

PBVtZEwt208

[Supergirl]

People who think McCain is moderate don't really pay attention. He may speak out against his own party sometimes, and actually have an intelligent opinion, but the bottom line is, look at his record. He votes with the Republican party line something like 90% of the time. He votes socially conservative, and continues to support this disaster of a war and all of Bush's policies. Bush is supporting him today. You think that's a coincidence?

On the other hand, the differences between Clinton and Obama are negligible. It's coming down to personality traits, experience versus hope, and sexism.

[some_user86]

I call bullshit.

If you were truly in the top 1%; you would be being taxed - at nearly a 40% clip; paying a higher percentage than any other American. The statement "Tax Me!" doesn't jibe with that. "I can do more", or "I didn't need the cut at the time!", I might believe, but "Tax Me" sounds like the rant of someone who has never shouldered the actual tax burden of a person in the top 1%.

McCain has always supported spending cuts to correspond to the tax cuts; that's why he didn't support them in the first place. Repealing those tax cuts now, however, on the cusp or during a recession, would be foolhardy.

Listen, research is experiencing severe stagflation right now. The prices for research equipment and materials is rising faster than the national rate of inflation, and the funding rate for research has not kept up. In fact, if you do an inflation-adjusted measure of the research funding, it has experienced a severe decline since 2003. Don't get me wrong. Our company does more than research. And we can survive moderately ok until the funding rate picks up. But its still our bread and butter. The situation is such that an increase in taxes would probably mean that research funding levels could at least match the rate of inflation so that we don't get real-value funding decreases.

It's all across the board, really, in turns of domestic programs. Nearly everything is suffering because we are spending more in Iraq then we are recovering from taxes. Lower taxes are great! But then spending needs to be cut across the board to match the loss in income. You can't cut spending here and there and expect to be able to recover a trillion dollars to cover the cost of the war. The dollar is continuously falling as we continue to borrow money from China to cover the loss of revenue. Guess what? That's inflationary pressure. Gas prices. Can't do anything about that. That's inflationary pressure. I suppose we could increase material science funding to discover new fuel types, but that needs funding!

Something's gotta give. I'm all for lower taxes. But spending has to be cut across the board. If you feel you can't cover the cost of national defense, then you have to raise them taxes.

Bush would be fired if were CEO of a company. In fact, every single member of Congress that doesn't vote to balance the budget should be fired. (Keep Ron Paul.)

[some_user86]

People who think McCain is moderate don't really pay attention. He may speak out against his own party sometimes, and actually have an intelligent opinion, but the bottom line is, look at his record. He votes with the Republican party line something like 90% of the time. He votes socially conservative, and continues to support this disaster of a war and all of Bush's policies. Bush is supporting him today. You think that's a coincidence?

On the other hand, the differences between Clinton and Obama are negligible. It's coming down to personality traits, experience versus hope, and sexism.

Don't forget racism. (looks at older Hispanic voters)

[Supergirl]

Don't forget racism. (looks at older Hispanic voters)

Fair enough. Yes. Interestingly enough, it's the only area where I think race played much of a role, whereas sexism has been an issue throughout the race. And I say this as a woman who is NOT a Clinton supporter. There are many good reasons not to vote for Clinton, but most of what I hear in the media and from people around me boils down to sexism.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Don't forget racism. (looks at older Hispanic voters)


At my caucus ysterday there were 225 people there supporting Obama. Aproximately 185 of those people were african American.

Clinton's count was 86 with ONE african american female..

There is a 2,000 lb elephant in the room boys and girls..

[some_user86]

True. A lot of the bullshit people say about Hilary is sexist crap.

It makes it harder to differentiate what's real criticism vs machoism.

The way I figured it, she was just playing traditional, dirty politics. Also, while she's one hell of an intelligent woman, I expect her to keep her campaign promises to get a second term, even if she knows it's wrong for the country. That's the clincher for me.

Plus, her healthcare plan sucks (mandates?! wtf?).

[some_user86]

At my caucus ysterday there were 225 people there supporting Obama. Aproximately 185 of those people were african American.

Clinton's count was 86 with ONE african american female..

There is a 2,000 lb elephant in the room boys and girls..

Affinity politics is to be expected.

Women will vote for a woman. Old white dudes will vote for a old white dude. Blacks will vote for a black.

What's their excuse? (Especially when the younger generation breaks from the mold.)

[Ignignokt]

There is a 2,000 lb elephant in the room boys and girls..

yeah, and right now she's eating barbacoa tacos downed with Mineral water and listening to La Invasora 107.9.

Fuck you.

[101A]

... because we are spending more in Iraq then we are recovering from taxes. Defense spending is less than 20% of the budget; in the '60's it was 46%.

Defense is NOT the problem; Entitlement programs, which have grown from negligible, to over 50% of the budget, ARE!

[101A]

Affinity politics is to be expected.

Women will vote for a woman. Old white dudes will vote for a old white dude. Blacks will vote for a black.

What's their excuse? (Especially when the younger generation breaks from the mold.)White people are split nearly 50/50 Clinton/Obama.

Not ALL races are racist - at least in this race; the people of color, it would appear are NOT color blind.

[Supergirl]

Affinity politics is to be expected.

Women will vote for a woman. Old white dudes will vote for a old white dude. Blacks will vote for a black.

What's their excuse? (Especially when the younger generation breaks from the mold.)


Actually class has been a bigger determinate in the Dem race. Educated, wealthier voters are more likely to go for Obama, while Clinton does better amongst the working class.

[some_user86]

Defense spending is less than 20% of the budget; in the '60's it was 46%.

Defense is NOT the problem; Entitlement programs, which have grown from negligible, to over 50% of the budget, ARE!

You're completely off-base. From the uneducated eye, it appears that "oh fuck, Social Security and Medicare are friggin' 43% of the budget!"

That's mandated spending. Required by law. President and Congress cannot negotiate that spending.

The single largest budget of the discretionary budget was DoD. Discretionary budget is the part of the budget that can be negotiated and the part where I expect a fiscal conservative to show some discipline. Military spending, including the DoD budget, makes up nearly 60% of the discretionary budget.

Get your facts straight. Don't be a pseudo-fiscal conservative unless you know what you're talking about.

[101A]

You're completely off-base. From the uneducated eye, it appears that "oh fuck, Social Security and Medicare are friggin' 43% of the budget!"to the educated eye they are somewhat more than that.


That's mandated spending. Required by law. President and Congress cannot negotiate that spending.So, this money grows on trees, is magical, wtf does it matter why we spend the money; my poiint was WE ARE SPENDING THE MONEY


The single largest budget of the discretionary budget was DoD. Discretionary budget is the part of the budget that can be negotiated and the part where I expect a fiscal conservative to show some discipline. Military spending, including the DoD budget, makes up nearly 60% of the discretionary budget.

Get your facts straight. Don't be a pseudo-fiscal conservative unless you know what you're talking about.AND that's why defense has become less and less a percentage of our total budget; I got that. WTF does it matter if we stop spending on the Iraq war completely, hell let's decomission every damn ship in the Navy and send all the soldiers home! Congratulations, you've cut 20% of the budget; and can fund all the R&D you want! NOW, what are you going to do in 20 years, when those untouchable programs you're so proud of EAT UP THAT 20% TOO!!!!!????? You want to fix this shit w/o touching the elephant in the living room?

Pseudo fiscal conservative my ass, you are delusional.

[some_user86]

to the educated eye they are somewhat more than that.

So, this money grows on trees, is magical, wtf does it matter why we spend the money; my poiint was WE ARE SPENDING THE MONEY

AND that's why defense has become less and less a percentage of our total budget; I got that. WTF does it matter if we stop spending on the Iraq war completely, hell let's decomission every damn ship in the Navy and send all the soldiers home! Congratulations, you've cut 20% of the budget; and can fund all the R&D you want! NOW, what are you going to do in 20 years, when those untouchable programs you're so proud of EAT UP THAT 20% TOO!!!!!????? You want to fix this shit w/o touching the elephant in the living room?

Pseudo fiscal conservative my ass, you are delusional.

My point was that discretionary spending is under the President's control (without having to take the extraordinary measures of fighting to remove mandated programs). Listen, you're not going to cut into mandated programs anytime soon, so we may as well suck it up and make do with what we've got, right? I mean a Democrat did. So how come the real fiscal conservatives can't? Oh that's right, Republicans only are fiscally conservative when convenient. Fuck the elephant and the donkey.

Did I ever say that we need to decommission the military? No. My point was that it is out of control spending on a pointless war. We took our eye off the fucking ball. The ball was in Afghanistan and Pakistan, not in Iraq.

And are you happy with Bush's spending elsewhere? The friggin' budget has risen everywhere. I don't care if they cut spending or increase taxes, but you gotta balance the budget. The economics don't work otherwise. The inflationary pressures are too great when we borrow from other countries. It hurts everyone.

[101A]

My point was that discretionary spending is under the President's control (without having to take the extraordinary measures of fighting to remove mandated programs). Listen, you're not going to cut into mandated programs anytime soon, so we may as well suck it up and make do with what we've got, right? I mean a Democrat did. So how come the real fiscal conservatives can't? Oh that's right, Republicans only are fiscally conservative when convenient. Fuck the elephant and the donkey.

Did I ever say that we need to decommission the military? No. My point was that it is out of control spending on a pointless war. We took our eye off the fucking ball. The ball was in Afghanistan and Pakistan, not in Iraq.

And are you happy with Bush's spending elsewhere? The friggin' budget has risen everywhere. I don't care if they cut spending or increase taxes, but you gotta balance the budget. The economics don't work otherwise. The inflationary pressures are too great when we borrow from other countries. It hurts everyone.I am certainly NOT happy with Bush's spending. I am far more pissed about that, than Iraq.

Clinton controlled spending? Clinton with a Republican controlled congress, led by the only true conservative on the national scene with power in recent years; Gingrich, somewhat controlled spending.

The insane .com bubble - and what it did for govt. revenue, didn't hurt.

[some_user86]

I am certainly NOT happy with Bush's spending. I am far more pissed about that, than Iraq.

Clinton controlled spending? Clinton with a Republican controlled congress, led by the only true conservative on the national scene with power in recent years; Gingrich, somewhat controlled spending.

The insane .com bubble - and what it did for govt. revenue, didn't hurt.

Right. It was politically convenient to be fiscally conservative.

The last three Republican administrations have proven to me that a Republican president can't be fiscally conservative.

A Democrat president + Republican congress on the other hand... they do wonders.

[101A]

Right. It was politically convenient to be fiscally conservative.

The last three Republican administrations have proven to me that a Republican president can't be fiscally conservative.

A Democrat president + Republican congress on the other hand... they do wonders.Yeah, but we ain't getting a Republican Congress. I AM NOT about to roll the dice on THIS Democrat congress with either of these decidely, very proudly progressive, potential Democrat Presidents!

McCain might just be stubborn enough to foster some spending controls (wouldn't count on it coming from defense, however)

[George Gervin's Afro]

yeah, and right now she's eating barbacoa tacos downed with Mineral water and listening to La Invasora 107.9.

Fuck you.
:sleep

[some_user86]

Yeah, but we ain't getting a Republican Congress. I AM NOT about to roll the dice on THIS Democrat congress with either of these decidely, very proudly progressive, potential Democrat Presidents!

McCain might just be stubborn enough to foster some spending controls (wouldn't count on it coming from defense, however)

That's the biggest part of the budget!

If it were McCain 2000, I could believe that he would act fiscally responsible.

This is McCain 2008. Poor bastard's been brainwashed by the neo-cons.

[smeagol]

If the Democrats that post on this thread are a reflection of the general Democrat population, you guys are screwed.

And you deserve to be screwed . . .

[Mr. Peabody]

That a significant portion of Clinton's voters are more aligned with McCain's point of view than with Obama's. This will be one of a few reasons why Obama gets smashed in the General election...

I am one of those who is more aligned with McCain than Obama..

You heard it here first..

I don't understand what you are saying here. From a pure policy perspective, Clinton and Obama are nearly identical. Hell, a Hillary precinct captain and I were having this very discussion yesterday while we spent the entire day working the polls. They both have fairly progressive agendas. The reason I support Obama over Hillary has more to do with his approach to politics and how he plans on getting his agenda realized. But I can't be honest with myself, as a progressive, and say that I am more aligned with McCain than I am Hillary, because it is simply not true.

I will concede that there is a part of me that would be resentful if Hillary stole the election and I might be tempted to vote for McCain. But if I did, it would be out of spite and not because I find myself more aligned with McCain's views. I suspect that your "significant portion" of Clinton supporters would be voting McCain for the same reason.*

*Unless, of course, you are referring to the Clinton supporters who voted for Clinton at the direction of Limbaugh. I am sure their points of view are more aligned with McCain's than Obama's.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I don't understand what you are saying here. From a pure policy perspective, Clinton and Obama are nearly identical. Hell, a Hillary precinct captain and I were having this very discussion yesterday while we spent the entire day working the polls. They both have fairly progressive agendas. The reason I support Obama over Hillary has more to do with his approach to politics and how he plans on getting his agenda realized. But I can't be honest with myself, as a progressive, and say that I am more aligned with McCain than I am Hillary, because it is simply not true.

I will concede that there is a part of me that would be resentful if Hillary stole the election and I might be tempted to vote for McCain. But if I did, it would be out of spite and not because I find myself more aligned with McCain's views. I suspect that your "significant portion" of Clinton supporters would be voting McCain for the same reason.*

*Unless, of course, you are referring to the Clinton supporters who voted for Clinton at the direction of Limbaugh. I am sure their points of view are more aligned with McCain's than Obama's.

I guess my point is that Obama is farther left than Hillary is. Clinton has been more of a centrist than a leftist during her senatorial career. I think that a part of her base is more centrist than the leftwing base of the party. I know many folks who back clinton are moderate in their politics and would fall in line with a Republican lite candidate that is more of a centrist than a rightwinger. Believe it or not there are many independant/moderate voters who aren't blown away by Obama or his speeches. I personally am one of those who wasn't a Hillary fan before this Presidential campaign started and was leaning towards Obama. As this whole process started I was never blown away by Obama's speeches or his message of change. I found it kind of humorous when people spoke if him as the second coming because I never felt that way about him. My intial view of him was very favorable but i thought he was to young and inexperienced and would be better served as a VP candidate. He was young enough to serve an 8 yr term as VP and be a viable and strong presidential candidate following his service.

Take your Obama glasses for a second and try to think about this objectively. When the general election starts and all of the undecided moderates are given a choice of McCAin or Obama to lead this country in a time of war the choice is clear. Would you want experience? Or a guy who is good looking and is a great orator? I am more moderate than left wing and to me that's not a tough choice. Consider Clinton's voting bloc women, older white americans,latinos (who like Mccain's immigration plan).. ANY number of these folks who defect will harm Obama... I guess you could assume that 75% of these folks come to Obama... the other 25% to Mccain..game over and so id Obama's aspirations of becoming president.

My gut tells me to vote for McCain.. I consider myself a level headed, pragmatic person..

[xrayzebra]

I don't understand what you are saying here. From a pure policy perspective, Clinton and Obama are nearly identical. Hell, a Hillary precinct captain and I were having this very discussion yesterday while we spent the entire day working the polls. They both have fairly progressive agendas. The reason I support Obama over Hillary has more to do with his approach to politics and how he plans on getting his agenda realized. But I can't be honest with myself, as a progressive, and say that I am more aligned with McCain than I am Hillary, because it is simply not true.

I will concede that there is a part of me that would be resentful if Hillary stole the election and I might be tempted to vote for McCain. But if I did, it would be out of spite and not because I find myself more aligned with McCain's views. I suspect that your "significant portion" of Clinton supporters would be voting McCain for the same reason.*

*Unless, of course, you are referring to the Clinton supporters who voted for Clinton at the direction of Limbaugh. I am sure their points of view are more aligned with McCain's than Obama's.

You have an interesting perspective of Obama and his plans. His only foreign policy plan is to surrender and
talk to the bad guys who hate us. His only agenda for
his domestic policy is more of the same domestic
democrat policy (yeah I spelled it right this time) just
more money. We all know that works. Don't we?

[clambake]

OMG, ray said "democrat"!!!

[xrayzebra]

OMG, ray said "democrat"!!!

Hey, I acknowledged it when I did it..........
:bang

[clambake]

Hey, I acknowledged it when I did it..........
:bang
i know you did.

i'm still in shock!!!

[Mr. Peabody]

You have an interesting perspective of Obama and his plans. His only foreign policy plan is to surrender and
talk to the bad guys who hate us.

You know, I assumed that you were just doing your typical "dimmocrap" song and dance with regard to the above comment when I first read it. But then, I looked at Obama's own website and Holy Shit!!! - you're right. Under the "Obama's Plans For - " section there is a page entitled "Obama's Plans For - Surrendering and Talking to the Bad Guys Who Hate Us." The worst part was that there was no plan! In other words, once again, Obama lacks the substance to tell us how he will accomplish his plan of surrendering and talking to the bad guys who hate us.

[PixelPusher]

You know, I assumed that you were just doing your typical "dimmocrap" song and dance with regard to the above comment when I first read it. But then, I looked at Obama's own website and Holy Shit!!! - you're right. Under the "Obama's Plans For - " section there is a page entitled "Obama's Plans For - Surrendering and Talking to the Bad Guys Who Hate Us." The worst part was that there was no plan! In other words, once again, Obama lacks the substance to tell us how he will accomplish his plan of surrendering and talking to the bad guys who hate us.
You should probably color your your last post with "sarcasm blue"

[clambake]

hey ray, what do you think about the sweet deals that Bush's puppet just signed up for with ahmadinajhad?

[Mr. Peabody]

I guess my point is that Obama is farther left than Hillary is. Clinton has been more of a centrist than a leftist during her senatorial career. I think that a part of her base is more centrist than the leftwing base of the party. I know many folks who back clinton are moderate in their politics and would fall in line with a Republican lite candidate that is more of a centrist than a rightwinger. Believe it or not there are many independant/moderate voters who aren't blown away by Obama or his speeches. I personally am one of those who wasn't a Hillary fan before this Presidential campaign started and was leaning towards Obama. As this whole process started I was never blown away by Obama's speeches or his message of change. I found it kind of humorous when people spoke if him as the second coming because I never felt that way about him. My intial view of him was very favorable but i thought he was to young and inexperienced and would be better served as a VP candidate. He was young enough to serve an 8 yr term as VP and be a viable and strong presidential candidate following his service.

Take your Obama glasses for a second and try to think about this objectively. When the general election starts and all of the undecided moderates are given a choice of McCAin or Obama to lead this country in a time of war the choice is clear. Would you want experience? Or a guy who is good looking and is a great orator? I am more moderate than left wing and to me that's not a tough choice. Consider Clinton's voting bloc women, older white americans,latinos (who like Mccain's immigration plan).. ANY number of these folks who defect will harm Obama... I guess you could assume that 75% of these folks come to Obama... the other 25% to Mccain..game over and so id Obama's aspirations of becoming president.

My gut tells me to vote for McCain.. I consider myself a level headed, pragmatic person..

Your characterization of Hillary as a moderate and Obama as a leftist is not quite accurate. Hillary and Obama have almost identical voting records in the Senate (much to my dismay).

Also, with regards to your comment about me taking off my Obama glasses about who moderates will vote for to lead us in this time of war - again, I don't understand your point. Hillary and McCain share radically different views with regards to how to handle the war in Iraq. You are assuming that if people can't get the allegedly "experienced" candidate, who has promised to get us out in six months, they will then vote for the "experienced" candidate who has said he will keep us in Iraq - all the while, ignoring the allegedly "inexperienced" alternative who has also promised to get us out of Iraq. Again, I don't buy this reasoning. You are assuming that people aren't in the slightest supporting Hillary because of her stances on policy and are merely supporting her on the basis of her experience. If that's true, why aren't they just supporting McCain from the beginning? He trumps her on experience by any measure.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Your characterization of Hillary as a moderate and Obama as a leftist is not quite accurate. Hillary and Obama have almost identical voting records in the Senate (much to my dismay).

Also, with regards to your comment about me taking off my Obama glasses about who moderates will vote for to lead us in this time of war - again, I don't understand your point. Hillary and McCain share radically different views with regards to how to handle the war in Iraq. You are assuming that if people can't get the allegedly "experienced" candidate, who has promised to get us out in six months, they will then vote for the "experienced" candidate who has said he will keep us in Iraq - all the while, ignoring the allegedly "inexperienced" alternative who has also promised to get us out of Iraq. Again, I don't buy this reasoning. You are assuming that people aren't in the slightest supporting Hillary because of her stances on policy and are merely supporting her on the basis of her experience. If that's true, why aren't they just supporting McCain from the beginning? He trumps her on experience by any measure.


Well most rationale folks know we can't just get up and leave Iraq. I think we were misled into this war but that doesn't change the fact that it would be irresponsible to leave abruptly. Is this a one issue election?

[Mr. Peabody]

I think we were misled into this war but that doesn't change the fact that it would be irresponsible to leave abruptly. Is this a one issue election?

I don't know, you claimed earlier that it was. Back when you said -


Take your Obama glasses for a second and try to think about this objectively. When the general election starts and all of the undecided moderates are given a choice of McCain or Obama to lead this country in a time of war the choice is clear.

I just don't understand how you can say that in terms of who you would want leading the country during the war you would rank it -

1. Hillary - out in six months
2. McCain - stay until we win
3. Obama - start pulling out within 90 days

That could only be true if you didn't care about the respective plans and were deciding based on another factor. You've indicated the the factor for you is experience. If that's true, then why not support McCain? Also, how can you support Hillary on this issue if her plan is, as you characterized it, "irresponsible."

[Yonivore]

GGA won't be held accountable for his past statements. Past performance isn't indicative of future results...or something like that.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I don't know, you claimed earlier that it was. Back when you said -



I just don't understand how you can say that in terms of who you would want leading the country during the war you would rank it -

1. Hillary - out in six months
2. McCain - stay until we win
3. Obama - start pulling out within 90 days

That could only be true if you didn't care about the respective plans and were deciding based on another factor. You've indicated the the factor for you is experience. If that's true, then why not support McCain? Also, how can you support Hillary on this issue if her plan is, as you characterized it, "irresponsible."

Does the Iraq war encompass the entire war on terror? It's my understanding that this was just one front? If that's the case we are still at war with the rest of the Islamic terrorists not in Iraq.. Iraq war does not = the war on terror..don't play stupid. I am also concerned with the other war on terror also..are you?


I am big McCain fan .. but I am a bigger Clinton fan.. I have stated that I would consider voting for McCain over Obama if CLinton loses.. I am just not enamored with Obama..pardon me but I want more than a nice suit ... Hillary is tougher than Obama..

Let's not forget overall experience... You may have missed my point... I assume that majority of Americans value experience as opposed to a young guy who wants change..

[boutons_]

the war on terror is a scam, as spurious as the Iraq invasion, where the US is refereeing/subsidizing a n-way civil war, with a few foreign fighters invited exclusively by US's occupation.

"War on" terror is working about just as well as the war on drugs, or the war on dumb kids. Still plenty of drugs, still plenty of dumb kids, after decades of war.

dubya totally fucked up going into Iraq. McCain is saying he would have and will fuck up just like dubya with more wars and eternal occupation of Iraq. The Dems will out-vote overwhelm these corporate/MIC shills.

[Mr. Peabody]

Does the Iraq war encompass the entire war on terror? It's my understanding that this was just one front? If that's the case we are still at war with the rest of the Islamic terrorists not in Iraq.. Iraq war does not = the war on terror..don't play stupid. I am also concerned with the other war on terror also..are you?


I am big McCain fan .. but I am a bigger Clinton fan.. I have stated that I would consider voting for McCain over Obama if CLinton loses.. I am just not enamored with Obama..pardon me but I want more than a nice suit ... Hillary is tougher than Obama..

Let's not forget overall experience... You may have missed my point... I assume that majority of Americans value experience as opposed to a young guy who wants change..

Honestly, I could care less whether you support Hillary, McCain, or Obama. Just don't say things like "In the Senate Hillary is a moderate and Obama is a leftist" because they are patently untrue.

Also, you make blanket statements like Hillary is tougher than Obama. Again, I don't know what you base that on. Is it because she said she wears asbestos pantsuits? What tough stances has she taken? What stances has she taken that were politically unpopular or showed substantial resolve?

Just looks at this election. She's accused Obama and Edwards of ganging up on her because she's a woman. She's cried three or four times on the campaign trail (always on the eve of election). She's accused the media of not treating her fairly. This is "tough"?

She's also talked about how hard it is to be a woman in this election. I'll bet that's news to Obama who had to get secret service detail due to the threats on his life. Just google the phrase "assassinate Obama" and see how many hits come up, and yet, Hillary's the tough one because...? Hell man, Colin Powell decided not to run for president in part because people told him he was likely to be assassinated. Give a guy a little credit for knowing there is a good chance he could be dead by the end of his first term and running anyway.

[PixelPusher]

Also, you make blanket statements like Hillary is tougher than Obama. Again, I don't know what you base that on. Is it because she said she wears asbestos pantsuits? What tough stances has she taken? What stances has she taken that were politically unpopular or showed substantial resolve?

Just looks at this election. She's accused Obama and Edwards of ganging up on her because she's a woman. She's cried three or four times on the campaign trail (always on the eve of election). She's accused the media of not treating her fairly. This is "tough"?

She's also talked about how hard it is to be a woman in this election. I'll bet that's news to Obama who had to get secret service detail due to the threats on his life. Just google the phrase "assassinate Obama" and see how many hits come up, and yet, Hillary's the tough one because...? Hell man, Colin Powell decided not to run for president in part because people told him he was likely to be assassinated. Give a guy a little credit for knowing there is a good chance he could be dead by the end of his first term and running anyway.
Damn, I gave her credit for being tough in another thread - I completely forgot about all the times she's played the victim in this campaign.

[Ignignokt]

It's the whole Hillary wearing a Brown mariachi suit, Eating corn out of a cup, and kissing a little mexican girl that convinced him to vote for Hillary over Obama. Lets not kid ourselves.

[101A]

"War on" terror is working about just as well as the war on drugs, or the war on dumb kids. Still plenty of drugs, still plenty of dumb kids, after decades of war.
Don't forget the most expensive failed "war".

The WAR ON POVERTY - been fighting it since the early sixties, and frankly it's kicking our asses.

Let's keep talking, I think we can find some common ground here.

[Mr. Peabody]

"War on" terror is working about just as well as the war on drugs, or the war on dumb kids. Still plenty of drugs, still plenty of dumb kids, after decades of war.


You can't win a war on dumb kids. It's not a conventional war. No matter how many we vanquish there will only be more.

[101A]

You can't win a war on dumb kids. It's not a conventional war. No matter how many we vanquish there will only be more.Yeah, and it's not very sporting either.

"Hey kid come over here, I've got something for you." (dumb kid comes over, you shoot him in the head)

Then, to the kid standing RIGHT behind the first one who saw the whole thing:

"Hey kid come over here, I've got something for you." (dumb kid comes over, you shoot him in the head)

Repeat.

[Spawn]

Don't forget the most expensive failed "war".

The WAR ON POVERTY - been fighting it since the early sixties, and frankly it's kicking our asses.

Let's keep talking, I think we can find some common ground here.

There's never been a WAR ON POVERTY. A WAR AGAINST POOR PEOPLE is more accurate.

[Spawn]

At my caucus ysterday there were 225 people there supporting Obama. Aproximately 185 of those people were african American.

Clinton's count was 86 with ONE african american female..

There is a 2,000 lb elephant in the room boys and girls..

Again I say that I am sure you didn't have a problem when all those Black people were voting for Clinton the 1st or any other White Democratic canidate but now that the tide has changed and they are not voting for your canidate you now consider it racism.

[101A]

There's never been a WAR ON POVERTY. A WAR AGAINST POOR PEOPLE is more accurate.
Forty years ago, fool. (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1589660)

Learn your history.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Again I say that I am sure you didn't have a problem when all those Black people were voting for Clinton the 1st or any other White Democratic canidate but now that the tide has changed and they are not voting for your canidate you now consider it racism.


I don't care if 100% of the black folks vote for obama.. I was just posting my observation.. It seems to me that most black folks are voting for him because he's black.. there is nothing wrong with that.. If it were a white candidate or hispanic candidate and most people voted for me because of my race that is a bit racist to me.. If I vote for a hispanic candidate soley because of his skin color than I would wrong for doing that wouldn't I? I like Obama but I like Hillary just a little bit more.. I also like McCain..

[Extra Stout]

I don't care if 100% of the black folks vote for obama.. I was just posting my observation.. It seems to me that most black folks are voting for him because he's black.. there is nothing wrong with that.. If it were a white candidate or hispanic candidate and most people voted for me because of my race that is a bit racist to me.. If I vote for a hispanic candidate soley because of his skin color than I would wrong for doing that wouldn't I? I like Obama but I like Hillary just a little bit more.. I also like McCain..
If you become a moderate Republican, I will send you a free plush elephant toy. :elephant

[Nbadan]

Hey G.G.A.....Perhaps your pushing the eject button a bit prematurely....


The poll showed 52 percent call themselves Democrats, up from 45 percent in an AP-Ipsos survey in mid-December. Thirty-five percent say they are Republicans, about the same as December's 37 percent.

Yahoo (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080306/ap_on_el_pr/bush_congress_ap_poll)

McCain has a big hill to climb....

[George Gervin's Afro]

Hey G.G.A.....Perhaps your pushing the eject button a bit prematurely....



Yahoo (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080306/ap_on_el_pr/bush_congress_ap_poll)

McCain has a big hill to climb....

McCain will win..book it. If he loses Yoni won't post here for year.. :toast


My main point is that there are many people on the clinton/obama teams that don't like eachother nor will they vote for the winning nominee. McCain looks presidential, acts presidential while the democrats loook like amatuers. Obama is going to have to do more than give great speeches. Someone like me who has ALWAYS aligned myself with the democratic party was never enthralled by Obama should worry the obamaniacs.. The guy is obviously well educated and seems to be an overall really good guy but my gut tells me he isn't the right person ofr the job right now. My feelings from the very begining for Obama were that he was too young and inexperienced. I thought his best chance to enhance his resume was to accept the VP position and use the 8 years to become the face of America. No one would ever question his experience if this were the case. I feel Obama mistakenly put all of his eggs in onbe basket by trying to win the Presidential race now. If he loses he's done..for good. If he lost as a VP he could easily go back to the Senate and further enhance his credentials to run again in 8 yrs. He would be 56 and either the VP of 8 yrs or have a 12 yr Senatorial career that he could prove that he was ready. I know quite a few democrats who feel the way I do. In fact one of good friends at work was shocked when I told him if Obama won I would consider voting for McCain. I also managed to convince him that if the dems decided to unite both candidates Hillary would be the best choice to to be on top of the ticket. Obama would then be in a long term win-win situation. If Clinton loses she's done for good while he would be a viable eventual candidate later down the line. He would be a great President in 8 yrs.. but not right now.

[101A]

McCain will win..book it. If he loses Yoni won't post here for year.. :toast


My main point is that there are many people on the clinton/obama teams that don't like eachother nor will they vote for the winning nominee. McCain looks presidential, acts presidential while the democrats loook like amatuers. Obama is going to have to do more than give great speeches. Someone like me who has ALWAYS aligned myself with the democratic party was never enthralled by Obama should worry the obamaniacs.. The guy is obviously well educated and seems to be an overall really good guy but my gut tells me he isn't the right person ofr the job right now. My feelings from the very begining for Obama were that he was too young and inexperienced. I thought his best chance to enhance his resume was to accept the VP position and use the 8 years to become the face of America. No one would ever question his experience if this were the case. I feel Obama mistakenly put all of his eggs in onbe basket by trying to win the Presidential race now. If he loses he's done..for good. If he lost as a VP he could easily go back to the Senate and further enhance his credentials to run again in 8 yrs. He would be 56 and either the VP of 8 yrs or have a 12 yr Senatorial career that he could prove that he was ready. I know quite a few democrats who feel the way I do. In fact one of good friends at work was shocked when I told him if Obama won I would consider voting for McCain. I also managed to convince him that if the dems decided to unite both candidates Hillary would be the best choice to to be on top of the ticket. Obama would then be in a long term win-win situation. If Clinton loses she's done for good while he would be a viable eventual candidate later down the line. He would be a great President in 8 yrs.. but not right now.
How'd that whole being on the undercard of a Clinton work for Al Gore?

[Yonivore]

If he loses Yoni won't post here for year.. :toast
You should be so lucky.

[xrayzebra]

hey ray, what do you think about the sweet deals that Bush's puppet just signed up for with ahmadinajhad?

Haven't really given it to much thought one way or
the other.

My one thought may be to wonder if old Ahmadinajhad will
deliver or just blow more smoke.

[xrayzebra]

Don't forget the most expensive failed "war".

The WAR ON POVERTY - been fighting it since the early sixties, and frankly it's kicking our asses.

Let's keep talking, I think we can find some common ground here.


You know good and well if we just throw more money,
expand the programs they will work, damnit. All
the liberals tell us that. And they may be wrong but,
look, it makes you feel good to do something nice for
people. Now doesn't it?

[clambake]

Haven't really given it to much thought one way or
the other.

My one thought may be to wonder if old Ahmadinajhad will
deliver or just blow more smoke.
is Iran a terrorist state?

[xrayzebra]

is Iran a terrorist state?

You have to ask? Holy smokes Clam!

Yes they are.

[clambake]

then what happened?

[clambake]

so I guess Obama saying he'd like to talk to all leaders is a bad thing, huh?

[Don Quixote]

That a significant portion of Clinton's voters are more aligned with McCain's point of view than with Obama's. This will be one of a few reasons why Obama gets smashed in the General election...

I am one of those who is more aligned with McCain than Obama..

You heard it here first..

Actually, a decent post. You're not alone in thinking this ...

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YWQ4MDdmNGZjZDVhM2FiZDc1NWQ5NGQwZmQ5ODU2ZmY=

The article describes the two "tribes" that have long existed in the Democratic party -- (a) the patriotic, value-driven, blue-collar types, and (b) educated élites. These tribes do not play well together. Unfortunately for the Democrats, a significant portion of Hillary's base may well defect to McCain if she loses the nomination -- McCain also appeals to them.

On the other hand, I don't see Obamaniacs voting Republican under any circumstances.

It's not really about policy -- Hillary and Barack are virtually identical in that area. It's about -- well, just read the article.

[Nbadan]

The article describes the two "tribes" that have long existed in the Democratic party -- (a) the patriotic, value-driven, blue-collar types, and (b) educated élites. These tribes do not play well together. Unfortunately for the Democrats, a significant portion of Hillary's base may well defect to McCain if she loses the nomination -- McCain also appeals to them.

Do you think Wall Street is filled with Democrats? Oh, that's right, the liberal elites are....what? The Kennedys? They can only vote once...

[RandomGuy]

That a significant portion of Clinton's voters are more aligned with McCain's point of view than with Obama's. This will be one of a few reasons why Obama gets smashed in the General election...

I am one of those who is more aligned with McCain than Obama..

You heard it here first..

Who would you rather have appointing the next 2 or 3 supreme court justices?

Think long and hard about that.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Who would you rather have appointing the next 2 or 3 supreme court justices?

Think long and hard about that.


At this point I am unsure who to vote for if the bitch loses. I guess I would want Obama to choose a SCJ..

Of course the dems in the Senate would require Mccain to vet the candidates with them before he submiited them for the Senate's consent. In a way I could see McCain send somebody for the Senate to reject and then submit a more moderate candidate..