Have you noticed how much better the Suns defense is with Shaq?

[41times]

The Suns only gave up 126 last night to the Nuggets!

1 and done my friend, 1 and done.

[jag]

The real question is:
Have you noticed how much better the Mavs defense is with J-kidd? They only gave up 116 to the Jazz

[sa_butta]

Huge mistake. They could have gotten much better for Marion.

[MoSpur]

Can you imagine if Dallas falls to the eight spot, San Antonio stays at # 1 and we have a first round match up of Spurs vs Mavs??? That would be awesome.

[xtremesteven33]

West Outcome Prediction:

1-spurs
2-lakers
3-hornets
4-mavs
5-jazz
6-rockets
7-warriors
8-suns

WOULDNT IT BE AWESOME FOR THE WARRIORS TO KNOCK OUT THE LAKERS IN THE FIRST ROUND???

[Real Tomato Ketchup]

Can someone link me to that Suns board, want to see the melt that must occuring over there.

[SenorSpur]

Can someone link me to that Suns board, want to see the melt that must occuring over there.

http://arizonasportsfans.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=7

[SenorSpur]

Huge mistake. They could have gotten much better for Marion.


yeah, the prevailing notion is that they MISS MARION a lot more than they though they would - DUH!

[41times]

Can you imagine if Dallas falls to the eight spot, San Antonio stays at # 1 and we have a first round match up of Spurs vs Mavs??? That would be awesome.

Well first of all the schedule suggest that the Mavs will probably land somewhere around the 4th to 6th seed. However, if i was Cuban i would order Avery Johnson to make sure that if we can not get to the 4th seed that we try to get the Spurs in the first round, say 7th vs 2nd seed. Because home court means very little in that series. And if the Mavs were to win then they would get the winner of the 3 seed (say Hornets? vs Houston or Suns?) The Mavs could win that series too.

Last year the Mavs were stupid for beating the Clippers at the end of the year and not really trying to beat the Warriors at the end of the season. If they reversed those they could have played the Clippers in the first round and it would be a completely different story.

It's all about positioning this year.

[Real Tomato Ketchup]

http://arizonasportsfans.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=7

Thanks thanks.

[sribb43]

The real question is:
Have you noticed how much better the Mavs defense is with J-kidd? They only gave up 116 to the Jazz

yes and the suns gave up 113 to the Grizz w/ Shaq
and the mavs gave up 83 to the Grizz w/ Kidd

[dbreiden83080]

yeah, the prevailing notion is that they MISS MARION a lot more than they though they would - DUH!

LOL exactly, most intelligent fans were saying this when the trade was on the table. What made me laugh the most was when the majority of the so called "Experts" said this was a bad move with conviction. Then Shaq does his press conference and other interviews and talks his usual brand of trash, saying how he "Will prove everyone wrong, he can still play", blah, blah and because he is such a media darling half of the Experts changed their tune. Said the deal was going to work out after all. Now of course they have all jumped off the Shaq daddy, happy meal express and are killing him. :smokin

[BonnerDynasty]

http://arizonasportsfans.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=7

haha that place will be awesome come playoff time!

[ancestron]

The Suns are basically playing 4 against 5 with Shaq in the game because he's usually plodding somewhere around half-court panting.
He leaves a giant hole in the middle when he's not getting back on defense, and when he does manage to get back on offense there's only about 8 seconds left on the shot clock, and if he's fouled, forget about points from him off free throws.
I almost feel sorry for the Suns. Almost.

[1Parker1]

Suns could have gotten someone a lot better for their team and system than Shaq for Marion.

Nash is struggling and the most telling stat is his assists totals since Shaq got brought in. I know it's going to take a while to get him acclimated into their offensive scheme, but my goodness, Amare Stoudamaire should be ashamed of himself.

I have never seen a guy run so fast up the court on offense, and plod so slowly down the court on defense. It's almost comical. One sequence last night against the Nuggets, Stoudamire swishes a shot right inside the 3 point line, keeps his hands up admiring his shot and follow-through. Meanwhile, his man Keyon Martin runs down court for an easy layup. Even Hubie Brown called him out on that. If I were a Suns fan, Stoudamire would be the most disapointing player on my team...they should have traded him for KG when they had the chance and kept Marion.

[hater]

the only #s going up for suns after shaq trade have been opp ppg, opp fg % and cost of team snacks

[1Parker1]

:lol @ cost of team snacks.

[SenorSpur]

This shit surrounding the Suns is laughable - especially given all the shit-talking that Shaq did during his first press conference. It's clear that his declining skills and motor mouth are totally not in sync. I really love the comment of "....when I get angry, I've been known to go out and do certain things - like win championships". Give me a fuckin' break. He's obviously the last to know that he's no longer a factor in a meaningful NBA game.

[Indazone]

By the time the season is over the Rockets will have the third seed behind LA and SA. :D

[Soul_Patch]

I kind of feel sorry for the guy, then i remember that he is a multimillionaire.

[Mister Sinister]

the only #s going up for suns after shaq trade have been opp ppg, opp fg % and cost of team snacks
I :lol'd

[Spurminator]

Since Shaq's debut with the Suns, their opponents have averaged 112 points per game against them. Those opponents average 100.6 ppg for the season.

In five of these eight games, the opponent exceeded its season scoring average by 18 or more.

Oh, and Phoenix is scoring 3 fewer ppg than their season average since Shaq's debut.

[Xylus]

You guys are complete morons if you think this is all Shaq's fault. Marion's departure has revealed that Nash, Amare, and everyone else besides maybe Grant Hill, are worse defenders than we thought they were. Shaq's actually putting in the effort, it's everyone else (again, minus Grant Hill, who is a fucking stud) that's dogging it. Nash looks older than over, Bell is looking tired, Barbosa has regressed from last year, Amare slacks on D, D'Antoni is the worst coach on a contending team in the league, and our starters are all playing 35 minutes or more a night.

We have 99 problems, but the Diesel ain't one.

[MoSpur]

I think that Shaq gives them a physical presence inside, but if you draw him out, its worthless. The Suns have to figure it out and quick if they want a chance to compete for the Finals.

[hater]

You guys are complete morons if you think this is all Shaq's fault. Marion's departure has revealed that Nash, Amare, and everyone else besides maybe Grant Hill, are worse defenders than we thought they were. Shaq's actually putting in the effort, it's everyone else (again, minus Grant Hill, who is a fucking stud) that's dogging it. Nash looks older than over, Bell is looking tired, Barbosa has regressed from last year, Amare slacks on D, D'Antoni is the worst coach on a contending team in the league, and our starters are all playing 35 minutes or more a night.

We have 99 problems, but the Diesel ain't one.

I don't know why it's so hard for Sun fan to understand. It was a BAD trade, you traded a great asset for a slow antique.

Suns gameplan was run n gun, offense, offense, offense. 7 seconds or less. remember.

now they are trying to change everyting is like teaching a cat to walk on 2 legs. it ain't happening. So YES, they are playing worse WITH SHAQ. that is a fact.

he might be hustling, but it is because of that trade and because of him that they are struggling. how hard is it to understand??

Anyone with common sense knew it was a bad trade. and ESPN has no common sense BTW

[K-State Spur]

i was shocked at all the Suns fans who thought Shaq would provide great interior defense for them.

even in his PRIME, shaq was an average defender...and he's not in his prime.

hell, at this stage in their careers, Skinner is probably a better post defender (and I'm not overly high on him).

[Galileo]

dumbest trade of all time: Suns;

got Shaq, lost Marion

#1 Marion is better than Shaq at this time

#2 Shaq is injury prone

#3 Shaq has a much higher salary than Marion

#4 Shaq is older than Marion

#5 Shaq does not fit into Suns system

#6 Shaq has more years left on contract (not verified)

#7 Shaq not as good as Marion at man-to-man defense

#8 Marion better on threes

#9 Marion better free-throw shooter

#10 Marion runs court better

#11 Marion better rebounder

#12 Marion higher scorer than Shaq

#13 Marion better shotblocker versus fouls ratio than Shaq

#14 Marion more steals than Shaq

#15 Marion underrated, Shaq overrated

#16 Marion more assists per game than Shaq

[Spurminator]

You guys are complete morons if you think this is all Shaq's fault. Marion's departure has revealed that Nash, Amare, and everyone else besides maybe Grant Hill, are worse defenders than we thought they were. Shaq's actually putting in the effort, it's everyone else (again, minus Grant Hill, who is a fucking stud) that's dogging it. Nash looks older than over, Bell is looking tired, Barbosa has regressed from last year, Amare slacks on D, D'Antoni is the worst coach on a contending team in the league, and our starters are all playing 35 minutes or more a night.

We have 99 problems, but the Diesel ain't one.


Wouldn't you say they looked better, though, in the four games that neither Marion nor Shaq were playing?

It may not be Shaq himself that is the cause of this, from an effort standpoint anyway, but certainly the addition of Shaq to the team has affected the team in a negative way thus far, right?

[CarefreeAZ]

Wouldn't you say they looked better, though, in the four games that neither Marion nor Shaq were playing?

It may not be Shaq himself that is the cause of this, from an effort standpoint anyway, but certainly the addition of Shaq to the team has affected the team in a negative way thus far, right?

Agree with this. The other night in Portland for the first half all 5 starters came out with a focus on effort and energy to play some defense and disrupt the Blazers and actually played a good first half, holding Portland in the forties. Even Amare, for the first time, actually was poking the ball away and making efforts to try and deny his man from getting the ball on the low block. Second half was a different story and last night against Denver they reverted back to not coming out with the hustle/effort on the defensive end.

[K-State Spur]

i'm also shocked that many suns' fans seem to think the quick fix is playing shaq more on the low block. i agree that, ultimately, that's where they're going to have to play him, but there is a method to dantoni's madness. shaq on the low block not only clogs the lane, but also creates the opportunity for a second defender to come over and help on a driving stoudemire/nash/barbosa/etc.

i'm shocked cotton...

[coachmac87]

steve kerr just sucks as a GM!!!! sorry but its the truth suns and mavs are done!!!

[SAGambler]

You guys are complete morons if you think this is all Shaq's fault. Marion's departure has revealed that Nash, Amare, and everyone else besides maybe Grant Hill, are worse defenders than we thought they were. Shaq's actually putting in the effort, it's everyone else (again, minus Grant Hill, who is a fucking stud) that's dogging it. Nash looks older than over, Bell is looking tired, Barbosa has regressed from last year, Amare slacks on D, D'Antoni is the worst coach on a contending team in the league, and our starters are all playing 35 minutes or more a night.

We have 99 problems, but the Diesel ain't one.

Two things. 1. Shaq can't get out of the fucking way on Offense, and 2, that's if he ever get's back past half court to get to the other end. Then he gets confused, goes to the bench, has a bucket of chicken wings, and comes back to do it all over again in the second half.

And yeah, Marions departure has revealed what most of the league already knew.....There is no "D" in Phoenix....never has been....never will be. The two time MVP has finally been exposed.

[hater]

another thing is that Shaq looks completely dead tired by halfway in the 4th quarter.

[SAGambler]

dumbest trade of all time: Suns;

got Shaq, lost Marion

#1 Marion is better than Shaq at this time

#2 Shaq is injury prone

#3 Shaq has a much higher salary than Marion

#4 Shaq is older than Marion

#5 Shaq does not fit into Suns system

#6 Shaq has more years left on contract (not verified)

#7 Shaq not as good as Marion at man-to-man defense

#8 Marion better on threes

#9 Marion better free-throw shooter

#10 Marion runs court better

#11 Marion better rebounder

#12 Marion higher scorer than Shaq

#13 Marion better shotblocker versus fouls ratio than Shaq

#14 Marion more steals than Shaq

#15 Marion underrated, Shaq overrated

#16 Marion more assists per game than Shaq


And Riley is still laughing his ass off at being able to get rid of the 40 million dollar albatross he had hanging around his neck. Desert heat must really have gotten to Kerr and rest of the FO crew there in Phoenix.

[Xylus]

I don't know why it's so hard for Sun fan to understand. It was a BAD trade, you traded a great asset for a slow antique.

Suns gameplan was run n gun, offense, offense, offense. 7 seconds or less. remember.

now they are trying to change everyting is like teaching a cat to walk on 2 legs. it ain't happening. So YES, they are playing worse WITH SHAQ. that is a fact.

he might be hustling, but it is because of that trade and because of him that they are struggling. how hard is it to understand??

Anyone with common sense knew it was a bad trade. and ESPN has no common sense BTW
I agree that it was a bad trade, but the Suns' current struggles are the result of deficiencies of almost every player in the rotation, deficiencies that Shawn Marion used to cover up with his unbelievable hustle.

I'm not sure why you're suddenly defending the Suns' run-and-gun offense, saying the Suns should have kept that going, when you've criticized it for the last 4 years, saying it would take them nowhere. (The reality is, it would have taken them somewhere if they had just kept Kurt Thomas and still signed Grant Hill.) We all knew that the Suns weren't going to win a championship this year if they didn't make a move. They had to make a move... they just made a bad one.

With that said, Suns fans have to move on from post-Marion syndrome. The dude's gone. He's not coming back. We have to live with this current construction, whether we like it or not, and focus on what the team's current problems are.

What are those problems? Turnovers and perimeter D, two things that Shaq really isn't responsible for. Nash has been a turnover machine lately, and the entire team looks sloppy. As for the perimeter D, Bell is no longer the lockdown defender he once was because he looks exhausted. Coach plays him 35-40 minutes a night against the opposing team's best player for 3 straight years, and it has taken its toll. There's not a player in the league that Nash can successfully guard. Barbosa is a below-average defender, who has shown little defensive improvement since he entered the league. And Grant Hill is a decent defender, but the man's 35, and not quite as agile as he used to be.

Sure, sometimes the offense sputters with Shaq playing, but that will eventually get worked out over time as the team adjusts to this new giant element. It's the perimeter D and disturbing amount of turnovers that need to be worked on, and that starts with our backcourt.

[timvp]

You guys are complete morons if you think this is all Shaq's fault. Marion's departure has revealed that Nash, Amare, and everyone else besides maybe Grant Hill, are worse defenders than we thought they were. Shaq's actually putting in the effort, it's everyone else (again, minus Grant Hill, who is a fucking stud) that's dogging it. Nash looks older than over, Bell is looking tired, Barbosa has regressed from last year, Amare slacks on D, D'Antoni is the worst coach on a contending team in the league, and our starters are all playing 35 minutes or more a night.

We have 99 problems, but the Diesel ain't one.I have to somewhat agree with this. I've watched a few Suns games since the trade and the biggest reason why they are losing isn't really Shaq. Shaq is rebounding well and is scoring when he gets the ball in good position.

The main problem for the Suns right now is Steve Nash. Compared to his MVP years, he's sucking right now. His turnovers are up. He isn't creating as many shots as he used to. Worst of all, his defense is at an all-time low. He's getting toasted by starters and backups.

Nash is playing like he resents the trade was made. Either he'll start playing harder again and the Suns will bounce back or the Suns' season is over. Everyone knew it was a risky trade ... but I don't think anyone counted on Nash turning into the problem.





P.S.

If Marion is the stud some in this thread say he is, why did the Heat get worse since acquiring him?

Thanks.

[Tek_XX]

I'm sure that Horry is somehow responsible for this.

[Duncanoypi]

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20080306/capt.1c77a699afac4400a2cef46f632cd97e.suns_nuggets _basketball_dxa107.jpg

[JPB]

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20080306/capt.1c77a699afac4400a2cef46f632cd97e.suns_nuggets _basketball_dxa107.jpg


WTF !!??

[Findog]

The real question is:
Have you noticed how much better the Mavs defense is with J-kidd? They only gave up 116 to the Jazz


And 97 to the Spurs, and 93 to the Lakers in regulation. We were playing for the fourth time in five nights against Utah. The Jazz gave up 110, you want to rag on their d?

The Mavs will never be mistaken for the Bad Boys Pistons or the 96 Bulls, but don't ever denigrate our defense or lump us in with the likes of the Suns.

[wildbill2u]

If I was an NBA coach, I'd run on Phoenix at every transition opportunity. Make Shaq run or be left behind. Phoenix isn't a great defending team so if you can play 5 0n 4 it just gets worse for them.

for the past few years, Shaq's stats in the 4th quarter usually reflect his exhaustion. He is not 90s Shaq. Duh!

[Findog]

By the time the season is over the Rockets will have the third seed behind LA and SA. :D

:lol

[Cry Havoc]

I'm STILL shocked about this trade.

From a team that boldly proclaimed they were screwed by Stern last year, had the best, most talented, most unguardable team in the league, a team that would have surely beaten the Spurs in 6 or 7 without the suspensions...

To this.

It. Makes. No. Sense.

And on some level, it's disappointing to me as a Spurs fan that we won't have that rivalry this post-season unless the two meet, which would require a Suns upset as of now. I'm confident we could and would have beaten the Suns with Marion, but I just don't think they're even a title threat now. Shaq is putting up numbers, but he's also a walking monument where you need a nimble, mobile center in a West FULL of speedy guards that penetrate and destroy all but the quickest of big men.


If I was an NBA coach, I'd run on Phoenix at every transition opportunity. Make Shaq run or be left behind. Phoenix isn't a great defending team so if you can play 5 0n 4 it just gets worse for them.

for the past few years, Shaq's stats in the 4th quarter usually reflect his exhaustion. He is not 90s Shaq. Duh!

Playing the Suns in the playoffs would be perhaps the ONE time where I would advocate for the Spurs going small. Parker, Manu, Bowen, Fabs/Horry and Duncan to start the game. Streak your men on every single play and assign one of your bigs to stay in front of/box Shaq out as his only object on D. Run on the other end.

I just don't see how Phoenix expects to survive out west with Shaq on the floor.

[polandprzem]

I have to somewhat agree with this. I've watched a few Suns games since the trade and the biggest reason why they are losing isn't really Shaq. Shaq is rebounding well and is scoring when he gets the ball in good position.

The main problem for the Suns right now is Steve Nash. Compared to his MVP years, he's sucking right now. His turnovers are up. He isn't creating as many shots as he used to. Worst of all, his defense is at an all-time low. He's getting toasted by starters and backups.

Nash is playing like he resents the trade was made. Either he'll start playing harder again and the Suns will bounce back or the Suns' season is over. Everyone knew it was a risky trade ... but I don't think anyone counted on Nash turning into the problem.





P.S.

If Marion is the stud some in this thread say he is, why did the Heat get worse since acquiring him?

Thanks.

Aaaa all of suden Nash started to play worse. I see.

Interesting is coincidence that the struggle came with Shaq.


PS. Heat are worse cause Ricky and White Choco are playing worse
Sound like a good explanation don't you think?

[Galileo]

The Suns pretty much gave away Joe Johnson a couple years ago as well. Stupid.

[Don Quixote]

http://arizonasportsfans.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=7

No, those guys have been pretty dispirited these days. No fun reading lately. And as much as I would love to go in there and "stir the pot," and encourage them ...

"there's always two years from now! When Shaq comes off your salary!"

"Aw, come on, Suns fans! You always said you wanted to see a champion. Well, here they are ... in San Antonio!"

"At least you have the draft to look forward to." Etc.

But I would only get banned again. Like I said, no fun. :devil

[RobinsontoDuncan]

All I can say is, when that trade was announced I let out a sigh of relief.... that should send red flags to just about anyone

[SpurAddict561]

lmao...I feel like a dunce for opening this in hopes of arguing with the OP, because I didn't realize he was being sarcastic until AFTER I opened the thread...

hahahahah

[barbacoataco]

The Suns traded away Marion without replacing him on the defensive end. I just can't understand how they thought it would work having Nash, Barbarosa or Hill defending the players Marion used to match up. Marion is kind of a freak because he plays like a SF, in a PF body. That allows him to defend a wide variety of players. The Suns should only have traded Marion if they had players available who could fill that role.

[CarefreeAZ]

The Suns pretty much gave away Joe Johnson a couple years ago as well. Stupid.

Joe Johnson wanted Max Money - 70 plus million. They tried to keep him but they also had just spent Max Money on Amare. Atlanta had alot more to offer plus he could be the main guy for Atlanta.

[NRHector]

You guys are complete morons if you think this is all Shaq's fault. Marion's departure has revealed that Nash, Amare, and everyone else besides maybe Grant Hill, are worse defenders than we thought they were. Shaq's actually putting in the effort, it's everyone else (again, minus Grant Hill, who is a fucking stud) that's dogging it. Nash looks older than over, Bell is looking tired, Barbosa has regressed from last year, Amare slacks on D, D'Antoni is the worst coach on a contending team in the league, and our starters are all playing 35 minutes or more a night.

We have 99 problems, but the Diesel ain't one.nah nah nah nah hey hey good byeeeeeeee , see you all next year :clap