Why are so many people worried about the Spanish language in the USA

[Purple & Gold]

I hear many people complaining (mainly Repubs) about how all people immigrants should be forced to learn English and how bad it is that they continue to speak their native language (mainly Spanish). Some have even gone as far as to say that no legal, govt., documents should be translated for Spanish speakers. Even that immigrants should be forced to watch TV and listen to the radio in English :rolleyes (Tell me how they plan to enforce that one)

Now I understand why certain people are scared, they are worried they will be forced to learn Spanish or else they might not get that job they want. But isn't that what the free market is all about? The free market has dictated that they want Spanish speakers (and Chinese speakers will be wanted just as much very soon). So I can't understand why Repubs are the main ones trying to keep this an "English speaking country" when the free market is the one dictating that English only is just not enough.

Any thoughts on this?

[Phil Hellmuth]

smoke n mirror racism.

[Purple & Gold]

smoke n mirror racism.

I agree. Pretty much what I think. Wonder how many people will actually admit it though.

[BonnerDynasty]

It's not racism. It is fucking annoying when you need something and the person can't speak english. Car wrecks, etc. Solution: Stay away from that side of town if it bothers you that much though. :elephant

[Spurminator]

I hear people think immigrants should be placed in dark rooms with their eyes stapled open while they watch English tutorials over and over with very loud music in the background.

[AFBlue]

I think there is a multitude of reasons why some people resent the Spanish language...

1) The overwhelming majority of people in this country speak English as a first language. As a broad stroke, those people feel that the individuals who don't speak English should have to adapt, and not the other way around.

2) People are, by nature, comfortable with what they know and not comfortable with what they do not know. Those who are not Hispanic and are not exposed to the language and culture of Hispanics are naturally skeptical.

3) Two words...national pride. Ironic that a nation built by immigrants would be so opposed to learning the languages of its neighbors and trade partners...but that seems to be the case. Your typical "red-blooded American" wants to draw distinction between themselves and Mexicans or Canadiens. Along the same vein, I don't think you'll ever see the US go to a "Euro"-like currency no matter how much trade increases with other countries....b/c America is the standard-bearer.

4) The economy. The two best cases I have are the resentment towards illegal immigrants from Mexico, which takes jobs away from Americans, and printing voting ballots in Spanish, which costs money.

The first is racist and aimed at a culture (spanish-speaking individuals) rather than at the illegal immigrants that are just a piece of that culture. It's unfair, but a reality.

The second is a small example, but I think a relevant one. In the rural middle Georgia town where I live, one of the candidates running for senator was actually criticized for spending taxpayer dollars to print ballots in Spanish. Being from South Texas originally, I thought the ad was rediculous and borderline racist, but I think I understand the appeal. Whenever you pay for something out of your own pocket that doesn't apply to you or benefit you, there is resentment.


As I said, I live in middle Georgia and I have to say that I've seen more overt racism in my short time here than I think I have seen or will see in the rest of my lifetime. These aren't my opinions, just my observations.

[Phil Hellmuth]

I think there is a multitude of reasons why some people resent the Spanish language...

1) The overwhelming majority of people in this country speak English as a first language. As a broad stroke, those people feel that the individuals who don't speak English should have to adapt, and not the other way around.



2) People are, by nature, comfortable with what they know and not comfortable with what they do not know. Those who are not Hispanic and are not exposed to the language and culture of Hispanics are naturally skeptical.

I agree with your first sentence, disagree with your second sentence assumption. Here in LA, there are many people exposed to hispanic lifestyle just due to the diversity of the cities. There are many people who are "exposed" to spanish life and still think they should strictly learn English aside from that.

[Holt's Cat]

If it doesn't matter that much, then why does it matter that much?

[Extra Stout]

I hear many people complaining (mainly Repubs) about how all people immigrants should be forced to learn English and how bad it is that they continue to speak their native language (mainly Spanish). Some have even gone as far as to say that no legal, govt., documents should be translated for Spanish speakers. Even that immigrants should be forced to watch TV and listen to the radio in English :rolleyes (Tell me how they plan to enforce that one)

Now I understand why certain people are scared, they are worried they will be forced to learn Spanish or else they might not get that job they want. But isn't that what the free market is all about? The free market has dictated that they want Spanish speakers (and Chinese speakers will be wanted just as much very soon). So I can't understand why Repubs are the main ones trying to keep this an "English speaking country" when the free market is the one dictating that English only is just not enough.

Any thoughts on this?
People don't know their history, and even if they did, they wouldn't care.

Until the 1950's, America was full of ethnic enclaves where people didn't speak English. If you lived in Milwaukee, your cleaning lady might only speak German. In St. Louis on the Hill, there would be people who only spoke Italian. Lancaster, PA has plenty of people who only speak Dietsch. Minneapolis had people speaking only Swedish. New York and Chicago had so many different languages it might as well have been the aftermath of the Tower of Babel.

Farmboys in the Army during WWII who spoke German played a hand in demoralizing the German troops, by making them question why their government was making them fight their own brethren.

Dinky little ol' San Antonio for the longest time had a German daily newspaper, the San Antonio Zeitung, which went away in 1950 because the German population didn't feel motivated to maintain the language any longer after finding out about the Holocaust.

So this is nothing new. Our lack of an official language has something to do with our not being a nation-state. American English is probably the single most dominant linguistic culture in the history of the planet in terms of how many people around the world feel compelled to learn it in order to compete in the global economy, yet some Americans feel insecure about it. This has to do with three things, I think:

1) Mexican immigration is happening so fast that for the first time English-only speakers actually might face a language barrier in their everyday life, which creates tremendous discomfort, and

2) There are parts of the country, namely the South, the South, the South, and the South, which hold strong feelings of Anglo-Celtic ethnic nationalism, and reject the notion of America as a nation where people of any background who believe in its basic political ideals can fully participate in society,* and

3) Some would downplay the earlier polyglot history of the U.S. because those were white people, and Mexicans usually are brown.**

The first of those three is understandable. The latter two I find repugnant.

* This would be why I detest the Confederate flag, not merely because it might represent "hate," i.e. an affirmation of white supremacy over blacks, slavery, and segregation, but rather because it represents "heritage," i.e. Anglo-Celtic white Southern nationalism. Such regional nationalism is utterly inimical to American ideals, just as much as when some Mexican-Americans start prattling about Aztlan, except that the former is near-universal in the South, while the latter is a fringe belief.

** I think several European countries would love to have the problem of an influx of culturally-Southern European, Roman Catholic, family-oriented immigrant workers. If asked, they will gladly trade their Arabs and North Africans for our illegal Mexicans.

[Holt's Cat]

Nice.

The experience of the Texas Germans is instructive (well, all German immigrants and their offspring in the US for that matter). They did fight assimilation, but eventually they gave in and went along with it, though for a while (hell, to this day for a few) they spoke English at the market and Deutsch at the haus.

[Holt's Cat]

And those German immigrants spoke the language, enjoyed the customs, and (some) held loyalties for the nation that had declared war upon these United States. Twice. Hispanic immigrants are merely taking low wage jobs and drawing on public services perhaps a bit much.

[Extra Stout]

And those German immigrants spoke the language, enjoyed the customs, and (some) held loyalties for the nation that had declared war upon these United States. Twice. Hispanic immigrants are merely taking low wage jobs and drawing on public services perhaps a bit much.
DID YOU KNOW...

The reason parts of the Statue of Liberty were closed until the renovation project in the 1980's was because it was damaged in an attack by fifth-column German immigrants upon a military weapons depot in New York Harbor during World War I.

The U.S. sagely learned from this experience and put all the Japanese-Americans in internment camps during World War II (but not so many Germans). After all, if white people could stoop to such treachery, imagine what the yellow man might do!

[Extra Stout]

In certain neighborhoods in Chicago, THE BILLBOARDS ARE IN CYRILLIC!!!! Why aren't people up in arms about these Ukranians and Russians who won't speak English?

[Holt's Cat]

DID YOU KNOW...

The reason parts of the Statue of Liberty were closed until the renovation project in the 1980's was because it was damaged in an attack by fifth-column German immigrants upon a military weapons depot in New York Harbor during World War I.

The U.S. sagely learned from this experience and put all the Japanese-Americans in internment camps during World War II (but not so many Germans). After all, if white people could stoop to such treachery, imagine what the yellow man might do!


True. The Germans did benefit from the fact that they looked the same as 'everyone else.'

So was the ultimate insistence that those immigrants and their offspring 'speak English' merely nationalistic?

[Holt's Cat]

In certain neighborhoods in Chicago, THE BILLBOARDS ARE IN CYRILLIC!!!! Why aren't people up in arms about these Ukranians and Russians who won't speak English?


Volume.

[Holt's Cat]

I guess the short answer is that once upon a time many people were 'worried about the German language in the USA.'

[Extra Stout]

True. The Germans did benefit from the fact that they looked the same as 'everyone else.'

So was the ultimate insistence that those immigrants and their offspring 'speak English' merely nationalistic?
There was an assimilation campaign in the early 1900's that had some success. This was carried out because these working-class ethic enclaves were becoming isolated from the culture at-large, became frustrated and disenfranchised, and were starting to crank out a fair number of terrorists, who did things like assassinate President McKinley, and detonate wagon bombs (the precursor to car bombs) on Wall Street.

[ChuckD]

I hear people think immigrants should be placed in dark rooms with their eyes stapled open while they watch English tutorials over and over with very loud music in the background.
Perhaps they could just use the Pear of Language...

[Purple & Gold]

The second is a small example, but I think a relevant one. In the rural middle Georgia town where I live, one of the candidates running for senator was actually criticized for spending taxpayer dollars to print ballots in Spanish. Being from South Texas originally, I thought the ad was rediculous and borderline racist, but I think I understand the appeal. Whenever you pay for something out of your own pocket that doesn't apply to you or benefit you, there is resentment.

Very well written post, enjoyed it, but I especially wanted to talk about this section. The bolded part is what I think is the main difference between the "left and the right".

I've told many republicans before that what I can't stand is that republicans only vote for what serves their own interests best. And they will tell you "yes doesn't everybody vote like that?". The answer is no. When I personally vote, I vote for what I believe is best for society and not for just what benefits me. I think it's selfish and just wrong to vote for what only benefits you. The greater good of society is much more important then what's best for an individual.

This seems to apply very much to not wanting to print ballots in a different language because of the "cost". First off the cost is minimal and with something as important as a persons right to vote, you would think it wouldn't be an issue at all. I guess I'm just fed up with the thought that if it doesn't benefit me, then there is no need for it.

[Purple & Gold]

People don't know their history, and even if they did, they wouldn't care.

Until the 1950's, America was full of ethnic enclaves where people didn't speak English. If you lived in Milwaukee, your cleaning lady might only speak German. In St. Louis on the Hill, there would be people who only spoke Italian. Lancaster, PA has plenty of people who only speak Dietsch. Minneapolis had people speaking only Swedish. New York and Chicago had so many different languages it might as well have been the aftermath of the Tower of Babel.

Farmboys in the Army during WWII who spoke German played a hand in demoralizing the German troops, by making them question why their government was making them fight their own brethren.

Dinky little ol' San Antonio for the longest time had a German daily newspaper, the San Antonio Zeitung, which went away in 1950 because the German population didn't feel motivated to maintain the language any longer after finding out about the Holocaust.

So this is nothing new. Our lack of an official language has something to do with our not being a nation-state. American English is probably the single most dominant linguistic culture in the history of the planet in terms of how many people around the world feel compelled to learn it in order to compete in the global economy, yet some Americans feel insecure about it. This has to do with three things, I think:

1) Mexican immigration is happening so fast that for the first time English-only speakers actually might face a language barrier in their everyday life, which creates tremendous discomfort, and

2) There are parts of the country, namely the South, the South, the South, and the South, which hold strong feelings of Anglo-Celtic ethnic nationalism, and reject the notion of America as a nation where people of any background who believe in its basic political ideals can fully participate in society,* and

3) Some would downplay the earlier polyglot history of the U.S. because those were white people, and Mexicans usually are brown.**

The first of those three is understandable. The latter two I find repugnant.

* This would be why I detest the Confederate flag, not merely because it might represent "hate," i.e. an affirmation of white supremacy over blacks, slavery, and segregation, but rather because it represents "heritage," i.e. Anglo-Celtic white Southern nationalism. Such regional nationalism is utterly inimical to American ideals, just as much as when some Mexican-Americans start prattling about Aztlan, except that the former is near-universal in the South, while the latter is a fringe belief.

** I think several European countries would love to have the problem of an influx of culturally-Southern European, Roman Catholic, family-oriented immigrant workers. If asked, they will gladly trade their Arabs and North Africans for our illegal Mexicans.

I agree with this whole post. Very well said. Maybe you aren't so delusional after all. :drunk :drunk

[smeagol]

Spanish sucks. It's the language of Hugo and Fidel.

[Purple & Gold]

Spanish sucks. It's the language of Hugo and Fidel.

So are you Italian or German smeagol?

[Extra Stout]

I've told many republicans before that what I can't stand is that republicans only vote for what serves their own interests best. And they will tell you "yes doesn't everybody vote like that?". The answer is no. When I personally vote, I vote for what I believe is best for society and not for just what benefits me. I think it's selfish and just wrong to vote for what only benefits you. The greater good of society is much more important then what's best for an individual.
At the intellectual apogee of 20th-century conservatism, conservatives believed that their ideology was the way to create the greatest prosperity for the most people by stripping away the barriers erected by the state to self-actualization. That idealism is no longer extant into the movement, which is a big reason it has withered.

[Evan]

I couldn't care less and neither does anyone else I know.

[AFBlue]

I agree with your first sentence, disagree with your second sentence assumption. Here in LA, there are many people exposed to hispanic lifestyle just due to the diversity of the cities. There are many people who are "exposed" to spanish life and still think they should strictly learn English aside from that.

It wasn't a mutually exclusive comparison...

People who have been exposed can feel one way or the other based on those other reasons....

But people who haven't would be uncomfortable.

[Phenomanul]

So are you Italian or German smeagol?

He was being sarcastic... Smeagol embraces and defends his language - Castellano (aka Spanish).

[Wild Cobra]

I hear many people complaining (mainly Repubs) about how all people immigrants should be forced to learn English and how bad it is that they continue to speak their native language (mainly Spanish).

It is a requirement for nearly all legal immigration purposes. It's the illegal immigramts who fail to follow such requirements.



Some have even gone as far as to say that no legal, govt., documents should be translated for Spanish speakers.

So? Now I disagree with this idea as an absolute. There are reasons why immigrants should have some translated documents available. It's one thing to know english, and another to be fluent in it.



Even that immigrants should be forced to watch TV and listen to the radio in English :rolleyes (Tell me how they plan to enforce that one)

Yes, there are some silly ideas out there.



Now I understand why certain people are scared, they are worried they will be forced to learn Spanish or else they might not get that job they want.

Worry? It's a reality! Sure, some jobs should require knowing other languages. However, no job should require you to speak someone else's language to other employees. Only social service jobs, translator jobs, etc. Any retail, manufacturing facility, food service job etc. should be barred from requiring employees speak another language.



But isn't that what the free market is all about? The free market has dictated that they want Spanish speakers (and Chinese speakers will be wanted just as much very soon). So I can't understand why Repubs are the main ones trying to keep this an "English speaking country" when the free market is the one dictating that English only is just not enough.

Any thoughts on this?

I haven't heard any republican pundits say to speak English only. Only that this is the USA and English should be the official language.

Anyone who wants to become a citizen must speak English. This has become an issue partially because of the push to make America bi-lingual. This will be fought against fiercely by all American who know what it means to be an American.


smoke n mirror racism.
I hope you don't really think that of people like me and others. It has nothing to do with racism. I suggest you learn more about other peoples values before suggesting such lies.

Also consider this. If any law deems we must accommodate the native language of one nationality, equal rights will force us to spend so much on all languages!

Fucking liberals never think of the long term ramifications of their actions. Why stop with the Spanish language? What about the illegals, and legals from other lands and cultures?

Funny how nearly all legal immigrants want to learn the English language because the came here to live and prosper. Those who choose not to learn the language, it seems to me, are not here to assimilate, but just to rob us of our prosperity.

[Holt's Cat]

There's certainly some component of racism to such movements. In South Texas it's not that big of an issue as elsewhere as Hispanics have been a part of the culture here for centuries. At the national level, where you find Hispanic immigrants in places such as North Dakota and Rhode Island, the major issue is not the "jobs" issue, it is the racial and cultural component. Especially when you consider that those immigrants comprise such a small percentage of the overall population.

When the ethic enclave is European in origin, it's not that big of a deal. It's quaint when the language from the Old World is still spoken. But all of a sudden it's a major national security and economic issue when Jose and Hector show up looking to do shit jobs for shit pay.

If you ever have the misfortune of coming across Lou Dobbs on the boob tube you'd think armageddon was upon us.

[AFBlue]

If you ever have the misfortune of coming across Lou Dobbs on the boob tube you'd think armageddon was upon us.

I've never actually seen a segment with him until I ran across one this evening, when he was talking about the USAF Tanker deal. Talk about overdramatic! He even had a guy on who brought up "freedom fries" and somehow tied that back to this deal.

It was hilariously over the top. I'm guessing by your commentary that's how he usually is.

[AFBlue]

There's certainly some component of racism to such movements. In South Texas it's not that big of an issue as elsewhere as Hispanics have been a part of the culture here for centuries. At the national level, where you find Hispanic immigrants in places such as North Dakota and Rhode Island, the major issue is not the "jobs" issue, it is the racial and cultural component. Especially when you consider that those immigrants comprise such a small percentage of the overall population.


Agreed 100%.

As I said, I've lived in middle Georgia for a few years and the level of racism I've experienced has been greater than any to this point and will probably be greater than any after I leave.

The black/white racism is covert. The two groups have learned how to co-exist without truly co-existing. Let's just say...they stick to their own.

But Hispanics are new to this dynamic...and let's just say the racism is much more overt than covert. They're pretty much hated by everybody, and it's apparent.

Both cases are sad, but the case with Hispanics is especially so.

[Holt's Cat]

Do Hispanics hate anyone?

[possessed]

Do Hispanics hate anyone?
Obama

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Now I understand why certain people are scared, they are worried they will be forced to learn Spanish or else they might not get that job they want. But isn't that what the free market is all about? The free market has dictated that they want Spanish speakers (and Chinese speakers will be wanted just as much very soon). So I can't understand why Repubs are the main ones trying to keep this an "English speaking country" when the free market is the one dictating that English only is just not enough.

English is the language of the business world, world wide. If it's good enough for the world economy, why isn't it good enough for this country?

One third of the nations in the world have an official language, it makes sense for the U.S. to have one.

That, and I shouldn't have to pick 1 or 2 when I dial in to my bank/credit card co./cable company/cell phone company/etc.

[Holt's Cat]

English is the language of the business world, world wide. If it's good enough for the world economy, why isn't it good enough for this country?

Business is conducted in other languages, world wide.




One third of the nations in the world have an official language, it makes sense for the U.S. to have one.

How many of those are English?



That, and I shouldn't have to pick 1 or 2 when I dial in to my bank/credit card co./cable company/cell phone company/etc.

The horror.

[Wild Cobra]

But Hispanics are new to this dynamic...and let's just say the racism is much more overt than covert. They're pretty much hated by everybody, and it's apparent.

It might be that way other places, but not where I live. I'm sorry others of you lived in such fucked up places if the racist issue is real. Where I live, it truely is the ILLEGAL aspect of it, and nothing else, except a very small margin of people who are racist.

[fyatuk]

Any thoughts on this?

While I personally don't care one way or the other (although, I will say I feel no pressure to learn Spanish and if people need to communicate with me they can learn English), I really don't think it's about racism.

It's about history and cost. English is what has historically been used in this country. English is the international language of business. And it costs a LOT of money to print government forms in more than one language.

I have never seen anyone suggesting trying to rid the US of Spanish or require anything more than government forms being single language (and requiring a low level of proficiency, about middle school level for naturalization and more than that is supposedly required to pass high school). None of that would affect how people live or do business except on a side effect basis, which should be fairly minimal.

One problem with not declaring English a national language is that it leaves open to possibility that at some point, it will end up being required that classes be taught in Spanish or other languages as well, meaning entire classes of people will perpetually not speak the same language, and our school system will have an even harder time finding decent teachers.

There's a whole mess of possible issues that can pop up if we don't restrict certain things to English. Just a matter of how much of a cost you want to spend to protect Spanish only speakers.

[fyatuk]

* This would be why I detest the Confederate flag, not merely because it might represent "hate," i.e. an affirmation of white supremacy over blacks, slavery, and segregation, but rather because it represents "heritage," i.e. Anglo-Celtic white Southern nationalism. Such regional nationalism is utterly inimical to American ideals, just as much as when some Mexican-Americans start prattling about Aztlan, except that the former is near-universal in the South, while the latter is a fringe belief.


I know I'm in an extreme minority on this, but I've never associated the Confederate flag as anything to do with race or ethno-centric thought or anything of the sort. When I see the Confederate Flag, I always think of state's rights, the 10th amendment, and the fall of the form of government the Founders' wanted for this country.

Like I said, I know I'm in the extreme minority. I understand the way most people see it, so I'd never dream of displaying it, but because of what it means to me I have a personal respect for that flag.

[j-6]

This argument always fascinates me because I can't believe more people don't try and learn Spanish to increase their wages and employability. It flat out pays better to be bilingual in a professional capacity - depending on the position, somewhere between 5% and 20%. Bilingual pay is written into most contracts that civil servants work under. Salary increases and promotions are more likely. Hell, telemarketers pay bilingual people a dollar an hour more than the rest of the lackeys.

Most of this is a moot point though. No Child Left Behind gutted the Bilingual Education Act - which means that instead of teachers instructing in English and also in the students primary language, there's no support available in any language other than English and all testing must be in English. Couple that with an illegal immigration crackdown and the unwillingness of English-only Americans to pick up Spanish, and Spanish as a viable second language in the US starts circling the drain.

By the way, this is how some of our friends south of the border deal with people that don't speak their language.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3045/2296328809_ab16d2a145_o.jpg

[Wild Cobra]

This argument always fascinates me because I can't believe more people don't try and learn Spanish to increase their wages and employability. It flat out pays better to be bilingual in a professional capacity - depending on the position, somewhere between 5% and 20%. Bilingual pay is written into most contracts that civil servants work under. Salary increases and promotions are more likely. Hell, telemarketers pay bilingual people a dollar an hour more than the rest of the lackeys.

This is fine for jobs that actually require interpretation. The real push is to make the USA a bilingual country like Canada is, and nobody in their right mind wants the problems associated with that.

When you start accommodating some, you end up with liberal stupidity like this:

Qapla'! Hospital seeks Klingon speaker (http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/West/05/10/offbeat.klingon.interpreter/index.html)

There were better articles than this when the news of this first hit the fan almost five years ago, including the link to the actual job posting.

[xrayzebra]

Do Hispanics hate anyone?

I am not saying they do. But you can the number of blacks
almost on one hand along the border regions of Texas.

New Subject: What is so wrong with having an official
language? Almost ever other country in the world does.

There is even a official language that must be used in
air traffic control. English, strangely enough.

[Extra Stout]

The real push is to make the USA a bilingual country like Canada is, and nobody in their right mind wants the problems associated with that.The real push? By whom?

[Extra Stout]

One problem with not declaring English a national language is that it leaves open to possibility that at some point, it will end up being required that classes be taught in Spanish or other languages as well, meaning entire classes of people will perpetually not speak the same language, and our school system will have an even harder time finding decent teachers.
Not educating children in English would be the single most stupid possible action to take regarding this issue. The problem with having entire classes of people who cannot speak to one another, and normalizing that through the education system, is larger than just having trouble finding teachers. If we make it so not only the immigrants, but their children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren don't speak English, we then repeat the mistakes Europe made in the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries, and ultimately would suffer the same consequences, i.e. horrific wars of nationalism.

If you ever run into anybody stupid enough to suggest that, slap them.

[smeagol]

So are you Italian or German smeagol?
Next time I will not only respond in blue letters, but I wil also bold them.

[smeagol]

That, and I shouldn't have to pick 1 or 2 when I dial in to my bank/credit card co./cable company/cell phone company/etc.

I'm hoping there is an ounce of sarcasm in the above quote.

Otherwise, it is pretty sad . . .

[Purple & Gold]

Next time I will not only respond in blue letters, but I wil also bold them.

Have no idea what that means. It must be some cooool internet talk. :dramaquee

[Purple & Gold]

While I personally don't care one way or the other (although, I will say I feel no pressure to learn Spanish and if people need to communicate with me they can learn English), I really don't think it's about racism.

It's about history and cost. English is what has historically been used in this country. English is the international language of business. And it costs a LOT of money to print government forms in more than one language.

Exactly how much more does it cost? I hear everybody saying that it costs so much money, but exactly how much more does it cost. I doubt it costs that much more, because if they're taking a form in Spanish it means they're leaving a form that's in English. Also now that they can actually understand what the forms say there's no need to find some type of government employee to translate and explain to them what the form says. So exactly how much more expensive is it to have forms in Spanish as well?


I have never seen anyone suggesting trying to rid the US of Spanish or require anything more than government forms being single language (and requiring a low level of proficiency, about middle school level for naturalization and more than that is supposedly required to pass high school). None of that would affect how people live or do business except on a side effect basis, which should be fairly minimal.

Oh you mean it wouldn't effect you. Funny how it has minimal effect when Spanish speakers have to learn English, but when English speakers have to learn Spanish it's a huge injustice and a huge inconvenience.


One problem with not declaring English a national language is that it leaves open to possibility that at some point, it will end up being required that classes be taught in Spanish or other languages as well, meaning entire classes of people will perpetually not speak the same language, and our school system will have an even harder time finding decent teachers.

There's a whole mess of possible issues that can pop up if we don't restrict certain things to English. Just a matter of how much of a cost you want to spend to protect Spanish only speakers.

Honestly what the hell are you talking about?? Entire classes of people not being able to talk to each other?? You really are delusional about this subject.

I have never heard of an immigrant or a child of immigrants that grew up here that did not learn English. It's actually been said that by the 3rd generation of immigrants, that the original language is basically forgotten. I think that's sad, because not only do people lose out on knowing more than one language (a huge plus), but they also lose the ability to think in more than one language. That's very important and very helpful in cognitive thinking and development. I find it ridiculous that people would actually try to fight against knowledge. The World is much smaller than it was before and the free market has spoken and placed a monetary value on people that speak more than one language. I find it funny how on this issue the free market doesn't matter.

[Heath Ledger]

What really pisses me off is if you are in a room and two spanish people are talking and you know them and know that they can both speak English yet they choose to still speak Spanish knowing that you do not know how. It just fucking rude frankly. Also where i live they mail us Kmart ads and WalMart ads in Spanish now that is fucked up.

[Purple & Gold]

Not educating children in English would be the single most stupid possible action to take regarding this issue. The problem with having entire classes of people who cannot speak to one another, and normalizing that through the education system, is larger than just having trouble finding teachers. If we make it so not only the immigrants, but their children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren don't speak English, we then repeat the mistakes Europe made in the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries, and ultimately would suffer the same consequences, i.e. horrific wars of nationalism.

If you ever run into anybody stupid enough to suggest that, slap them.

This would never happen and anyone that thinks it's even a possibility has no clue. People that grow up in the US know English, especially since it's such a global language. To think that a whole group of people and all their offsprings would just decide to not learn English is beyond delusional. Again immigrants that grow up in this country learn English. It's really the only way to get a job and make a living.

[Purple & Gold]

What really pisses me off is if you are in a room and two spanish people are talking and you know them and know that they can both speak English yet they choose to still speak Spanish knowing that you do not know how. It just fucking rude frankly. Also where i live they mail us Kmart ads and WalMart ads in Spanish now that is fucked up.

Well it seems to be more of an issue between you and your "friends". Tell them it's rude and you don't like it.

And as for you getting ads in Spanish. How do you go on through the day? :dramaquee

[Purple & Gold]

It is a requirement for nearly all legal immigration purposes. It's the illegal immigramts who fail to follow such requirements.

And where did you get this data? I know many legal immigrants that don't speak English. Most of them are older, so it is harder for them to learn. But they know enough to get by; please, thank you, and excuse me in any country/language will get you far.


Worry? It's a reality! Sure, some jobs should require knowing other languages. However, no job should require you to speak someone else's language to other employees. Only social service jobs, translator jobs, etc. Any retail, manufacturing facility, food service job etc. should be barred from requiring employees speak another language.

So what happened to the business owner being able to make requirements for his own business? If his clientele happen to speak predominantly Spanish, don't you think he has a right to higher employees that cater to them. As long as he/she is not discriminating against a certain group (and no English only speaker is not a certain group) then there should be no problem with that. Sounds like smart business to me.


I haven't heard any republican pundits say to speak English only. Only that this is the USA and English should be the official language.

And what exactly does that mean "English is the official language"? People act like it's a dying language in this country. To me it seems like only a roundabout way to make sure that certain documents do not have to be translated. A disservice to many people IMO.


Anyone who wants to become a citizen must speak English. This has become an issue partially because of the push to make America bi-lingual. This will be fought against fiercely by all American who know what it means to be an American.

No this is only an issue because politicians play on peoples prejudices for votes. And please enlighten me and explain what it means to be an American. I'll be waiting for this one. :lol :lol


I hope you don't really think that of people like me and others. It has nothing to do with racism. I suggest you learn more about other peoples values before suggesting such lies.

Also consider this. If any law deems we must accommodate the native language of one nationality, equal rights will force us to spend so much on all languages!

Fucking liberals never think of the long term ramifications of their actions. Why stop with the Spanish language? What about the illegals, and legals from other lands and cultures?

Funny how nearly all legal immigrants want to learn the English language because the came here to live and prosper. Those who choose not to learn the language, it seems to me, are not here to assimilate, but just to rob us of our prosperity.

And this is not racist?? :drunk :drunk


Those who choose not to learn the language, it seems to me, are not here to assimilate, but just to rob us of our prosperity.

Are you serious?? "If people are not here to assimilate they are only here to rob us of our prosperity." Wow I have heard a lot of bullshit before, but this takes the cake. This is pretty blatant to me, lumping a whole group of people together like that, but I guess since you don't notice it's nothing but lies. And fuck equal rights as well, those fucking liberals. Don't they know how much money it costs. :lol :lol

And explain to me again what exactly it is to be a true American. :drunk :drunk

[DarkReign]

I live in the North, so this entire argument has no bearing on myself or my employment.

But if I lived in the South I would most likely just learn Spanish. As it is, I am going to buy Rosetta Stone anyway....I have always wanted to learn another language and I cant think of a better (ie more applicable) language to learn than Spanish.

[Extra Stout]

I live in the North, so this entire argument has no bearing on myself or my employment.

But if I lived in the South I would most likely just learn Spanish. As it is, I am going to buy Rosetta Stone anyway....I have always wanted to learn another language and I cant think of a better (ie more applicable) language to learn than Spanish.
True... if you're going to speak a second language, it's hard to beat Spanish in terms of similarity to English combined with the number of people it allows you to communicate with. You get the entire rest of the Western Hemisphere except for Brazil, Quebec, Guyana, and a couple of islands.

[fyatuk]

Exactly how much more does it cost? I hear everybody saying that it costs so much money, but exactly how much more does it cost. I doubt it costs that much more, because if they're taking a form in Spanish it means they're leaving a form that's in English. Also now that they can actually understand what the forms say there's no need to find some type of government employee to translate and explain to them what the form says. So exactly how much more expensive is it to have forms in Spanish as well?


You do realize that most forms either have english on one side, spanish on the other, or english and spanish on the same side (usually english and spanish separated by a "/"). Besides the added cost and care of translating and designing, you have added ink costs, and for the double sided variety, added mechanism costs. (aka, while each bilingual form probably only costs $0.005-0.01 more than the English version, when that cost is repeated BILLIONS of times it adds up).

Just as an example, the IRS spends a few extra hundred thousand dollars a year printing Spanish tax information. Bilingual ballots cost in the 10's of millions range.


Oh you mean it wouldn't effect you. Funny how it has minimal effect when Spanish speakers have to learn English, but when English speakers have to learn Spanish it's a huge injustice and a huge inconvenience.

No, I mean it wouldn't affect the business outlook, period. Businesses would still place an emphasis on bilingualism to communicate with customers on a more comfortable level. I'm saying nothing would change period, and if you think it would, you don't understand the difference between government and business.

And here's the difference: 9/10ths of the US population speak English at home. You last statement implied you would rather 90% of the country make an effort than 10%. That's just stupid.

I wouldn't expect Mexicans to learn English if I moved down there, or if I moved to France I would learn expect to be able to get around without knowing French.


Honestly what the hell are you talking about?? Entire classes of people not being able to talk to each other?? You really are delusional about this subject.

I have never heard of an immigrant or a child of immigrants that grew up here that did not learn English. It's actually been said that by the 3rd generation of immigrants, that the original language is basically forgotten. I think that's sad, because not only do people lose out on knowing more than one language (a huge plus), but they also lose the ability to think in more than one language. That's very important and very helpful in cognitive thinking and development. I find it ridiculous that people would actually try to fight against knowledge. The World is much smaller than it was before and the free market has spoken and placed a monetary value on people that speak more than one language. I find it funny how on this issue the free market doesn't matter.

I've met several people in my portion of the city that are 3rd or more generation immigrants and cannot speak English even conversationally, let alone fluently. They were protected under screwed up programs like ESOL (or in some cases home schooled) and were never forced to learn English in schools, home, etc... This is under a system where English proficiency is supposedly required.

Usually by the 3rd generation, English is the primary language, but that's not even close to always the case.

I personally believe than knowing multiple languages is a wonderful thing. I can usually understand enough from Spanish, German, or Japanese to get the gist of the statement, but I really can't communicate well in any of them. That's my personal choice of where to be with linguistics.

Like I said, I don't particular care whether English is adopted as an "official" language and any restrictions are put on other languages or not. I like having bilingual ballots. I'd hate to see EVERY language represented so, just because that's a huge amount of languages to deal with, and most with small number of speakers in the US. I do not like ESOL and similar programs that hide non-English primary speakers, though.

[fyatuk]

And this is not racist?? :drunk :drunk


You do understand what racism means?

If you don't, it means prejudice against a RACE of people.

His complaint is about 1) illegal immigration and 2) those who don't learn English don't really want to assimilate into society.

While the Mexican government and many spanish immigrants (as well as many liberals wishing to paint the convservatives as hate-mongerers) portray that as racism, it's not.

By assuming his statements imply racism, YOU are sterotyping the people you believe targetted by his comments, and YOU are perpetuating racist attitudes.

[DarkReign]

True... if you're going to speak a second language, it's hard to beat Spanish in terms of similarity to English combined with the number of people it allows you to communicate with. You get the entire rest of the Western Hemisphere except for Brazil, Quebec, Guyana, and a couple of islands.

Unfortunately, my profession lies within the auto industry. The landscape of the industry has changed dramatically, although I am much too "new" (ie young) to know what the good ol' days were even like. My reality has been the same since I entered the workforce....it sucks.

The majority of my customers are foreign. I routinely kiss the asses of Japanese, Chinese, Mexican, German, French and French Canadians (and just recently an Indian gentlemen with lots of cold hard cash funded exclusively by some people in India...not checks, not transfers....straight cold-hard dollars....very suspicious).

Interestingly, I was in a meeting with oh-so-many Japanese men who were being interpreted by one American. I didnt recognize it at first, until after the meeting I asked the American "You speak Japanese?"

He said "No, I dont. One of them speaks Spanish. So, the others would communicate to him their terms in Japanese, he would in turn communicate those terms to me in Spanish and I would then tell you in English."

Its about that time I realized I needed to man the fuck up and expand my lingual horizons.

[Heath Ledger]

Why buy rosetta stone when you can download it for free??????

[DarkReign]

Why buy rosetta stone when you can download it for free??????

Hook a brotha up.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I'm hoping there is an ounce of sarcasm in the above quote.

Otherwise, it is pretty sad . . .


That was mostly tongue in cheek, but in general, as an American child of an immigrant, I'm starting to get tired of people in this country telling me I have to bend over backwards to accommodate people who only speak Spanish.

If you want to live in this country, you should be adapting to its culture and language, not expecting everyone here to turn around and learn your language. That's fucking lame.

Sorry if that pisses anyone off.

It's like the whole argument over illegal immigrants. My mom went through the proper process, and it took her ten years, TEN years, to get into this country legally. I think it's bullshit when I hear someone say that all illegals should be granted amnesty, shouldn't have to go through the due process and paperwork to get into this country legally, etc.

Fuck that. Other people who came to this country (like my mother) had to wait a long time and meet all the requirements to become a permanent resident here.

As to the whole English thing, it's there in black and white to become a naturalized citizen - you have to be able to handle basic english.

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=ce2b2cd1f7e9e010VgnVCM1000000ecd190aRCR D&vgnextchannel=96719c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1 RCRD

If it's a legal requirements to enter this country as an immigrant to learn basic english, what's the big fucking deal with making it our official language, exactly?

[Heath Ledger]

torrentscript.com is your friend azeurus is also your friend.

[DarkReign]

torrentscript.com is your friend azeurus is also your friend.

Graci.

[spurster]

This argument always fascinates me because I can't believe more people don't try and learn Spanish to increase their wages and employability. It flat out pays better to be bilingual in a professional capacity - depending on the position, somewhere between 5% and 20%. Bilingual pay is written into most contracts that civil servants work under. Salary increases and promotions are more likely. Hell, telemarketers pay bilingual people a dollar an hour more than the rest of the lackeys.


I agree with j-6. We should include other languages more into our schools. Otherwise, the US will continue to fall behind the rest of the world. Some of you might have heard of this globalization thing.

[Extra Stout]

I agree with j-6. We should include other languages more into our schools. Otherwise, the US will continue to fall behind the rest of the world. Some of you might have heard of this globalization thing.
Don't most high schools these days have a foreign language requirement to graduate?

I mean... I suppose we could start earlier, but the ability to formulate a curriculum is probably not the limiting factor in the U.S. educational system. The fact that a plurality of children come from home backgrounds that render them completely unprepared to learn anything is the limiting factor.

[FromWayDowntown]

Reading this forum every day convinces me that English as an official language is untenable, if only because so few Americans actually use that language as it was meant to be spoken and written.

[Yonivore]

Reading this forum every day convinces me that English as an official language is untenable, if only because so few Americans actually use that language as it was meant to be spoken and written.
Actually, its the malleability of English that makes it ideal for a common, official language.

[Extra Stout]

Reading this forum every day convinces me that English as an official language is untenable, if only because so few Americans actually use that language as it was meant to be spoken and written.
whatchoo talkin bout willis

[Yonivore]

whatchoo talkin bout willis
A perfect example.

[clambake]

i say we dump the spanish language, but we'll need to rename some cities.....san antonio...san diego.......los angeles.......el paso.....no, let'em keep el paso. i spent a month in el paso.......one day.

[DarkReign]

I agree with j-6. We should include other languages more into our schools. Otherwise, the US will continue to fall behind the rest of the world. Some of you might have heard of this globalization thing.

The non-Anglosphere world learns Enlgish as it is.

Theyve come to us, not the other way around.

[jcrod]

That was mostly tongue in cheek, but in general, as an American child of an immigrant, I'm starting to get tired of people in this country telling me I have to bend over backwards to accommodate people who only speak Spanish.

If you want to live in this country, you should be adapting to its culture and language, not expecting everyone here to turn around and learn your language. That's fucking lame.

Sorry if that pisses anyone off.

It's like the whole argument over illegal immigrants. My mom went through the proper process, and it took her ten years, TEN years, to get into this country legally. I think it's bullshit when I hear someone say that all illegals should be granted amnesty, shouldn't have to go through the due process and paperwork to get into this country legally, etc.

Fuck that. Other people who came to this country (like my mother) had to wait a long time and meet all the requirements to become a permanent resident here.

As to the whole English thing, it's there in black and white to become a naturalized citizen - you have to be able to handle basic english.

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=ce2b2cd1f7e9e010VgnVCM1000000ecd190aRCR D&vgnextchannel=96719c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1 RCRD

If it's a legal requirements to enter this country as an immigrant to learn basic english, what's the big fucking deal with making it our official language, exactly?

What people and how are you bending over backwards to accomodate?

Where did you mom come from?

My parents also came over legally and my mom is a citizen, but I understand why some come over illegaly if the wait is too long. Do i agree, no, but I understand.

I've visited Mexico through out my life and seen first hand how difficult life is there. And its not by choice.