Simmons: "I told you so..." abt J-Kidd Trade

[CaptainLate]

Q: (Dead silence, sound of crickets chirping)
--Dallas, Texas

SG: Wait, nobody from Dallas is e-mailing me this week to tell me that I'm a moron for not liking the Jason Kidd trade? What happened? Was it the consecutive road losses to San Antonio, Dallas and Utah that cooled you off? Did you realize after Deron Williams' 17-20 that Kidd can't defend quick point guards anymore? Are you concerned after the displicable end-of-the-game benching in San Antonio that the OverCoacher (aka, Avery Johnson) and the Coach On the Floor (Kidd) might not be the greatest match? (By the way, I just made up the word "displicable" -- it's for anything that's one step beyond inexplicable.) Are you worried that your team's immediate future hinges on Erick Dampier playing hard for four months in a row, or that you don't have a bench, or that you have to work really, really, really superduperhard against good teams to get quality shots in the final five minutes of a game, or that you're not getting stops when it matters? Or did the Internet go down in Texas this weekend?

One other thought: After watching three nationally televised Mavs games in the past week, I was amazed that every announcer and studio analyst raved about Kidd and everything he "does" for a basketball team without ever mentioning his flaws. It's like he was a Republican getting broken down on Fox News. We get it, he makes everyone better and runs the hell out of a fast break. But what about the fact that he can't shoot? Or that he can't guard any penetrating guard? Or that, when things slow down in the last four minutes of a game and everyone stops running, he's just not as effective? I didn't hear one TV person mention this over the past week. Not one. Now I'm wondering if the G.P. Corollary applies to Kidd here -- in other words, because he looks exactly like he did during his apex, it's throwing everyone off (even someone astute like Kenny Smith or Jeff Van Gundy) and they're treating him like he's In-His-Prime J-Kidd instead of Guy-With-1,100-Games-On-His-Odometer J-Kidd. It's bizarre.

[JMarkJohns]

Life-time, Kidd is 0-fer against Western Conference playoff foes and has just one series win vs. a 50-win team in the playoffs. His inability to shoot kills Kidd-led offenses come the playoffs. He's a great, but Simmons is right on about his flaws. I saw 50-win, Kidd-led Suns teams with home-court advantage lose in the first round. That was nearly a decade ago.

[ancestron]

yeah.

[GrandeDavid]

Mavs fans, any comments?

[DarrinS]

Mavs fans, any comments?


<crickets>

[JamStone]

Definitely didn't make them a better team. But, in my opinion, it still wasn't a bad trade because they weren't going to win it with Devin Harris either and they were trying to shake things up. Didn't help, but didn't hurt them that much either. The draft picks probably hurt more than losing Harris and Diop.

[jag]

http://www.livefoodsdirect.co.uk/images/Silent-crickets-6.jpg

[lurker]

I think it's pretty sad that Dallas lost to themselves.

[spursrocksocks]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUfn0BRAdbA cricket fight

[41times]

Mavs fans, any comments?
Yes, Simmons is an idiot. He gets paid to write stuff that gets a reaction. Sort of like Charles Barkley gets paid to spew Hot Sports opinions.

First of all, this is old news. This is over a week old. He judges the trade based on 4 games against the 3 or 4 best oppoents in the West at the time.
The Mavs lost to the Hornets on Kidds 2nd day here. Big surprise. Then the Mavs lost to the Spurs, Lakers and Jazz all by 1 possession in regulation and those 4 games were played in 5 days. The results would have been the same with Harris.

While it is factual that the Mavs team is now "Older", they aren't as old as the Spurs. And they are more experienced now. Kidd brings playoff toughness and experience that Harris could not.

Myth:
The team is worse now than before. Totally wrong. While Harris was a decent scorer 17-18 points per game. He only avg 4-5 assists and 2-3 rebounds. Overall his production is far less than Kidds 10 assist per game 11 points per game and 7-8 rebounds per game.

And what people do not see, unless they watch all the Mavs games, is that Kidd makes everyone around him (except Josh Howard) better. He gets them the ball in a much better position to score where as Harris simply dribbled it up and passed it to another player for an Isolation play.

Myth:
Kidd shoots poorly. While Kidd's 2 point FG % is not the best he does shoot over 35% from 3 point range. And he can make a big shot if needed. But that is not why he is here.

Myth:
Losing Diop hurts the Mavs further. Wrong.
While Diop was a good back up to Damp he was never a scorer and had foul problems. Now that Kidd is here Damp is playing better than ever so we miss Diop even less. Furthermore, Malik Allen has done a nice job playing back up for Damp and he scores twice as much as Diop. Also Magloire is starting to get some time so he should be in shape by the Playoffs. So we will then have a 3 head center position if needed. Damp, Allen, Magloire and that is better than Damp/Diop

Myth:
Now that Harris and Diop are gone the Spurs will run all over the Mavs. Wrong
the game last week was a one possession game and Kidd and co. did a very nice job on Parker. If Josh Howard had been healthy (he is still on about 85%) the Mavs would have won that game and the next 2.

Additionally, we got a good young player in Anotine Wright who is finally getting some playing time under stubborn Avery Johnson's system.

Kidd brings a much larger defender for the bigger gaurds in the NBA. Harris was small/slight of build and was somewhat Fragile. Harris has missed more games in 4 years than Kidd has in 13 years.

And lastly, Kidd has made it fun to play the game again. If you watch the Mavs closely, you see that everyone on the team is just more excited about playing. Everyone is passing the ball and assists are up and Isolations are down. Bottom line, if Dirk's happy about it, that's what matters most.

Our only problem now is getting Avery to stop micro-managing the team and let Kidd run the offensive flow.

I hope that answers your questions.

[SpursWoman]

http://larry.teamoverkill.com/pics/mushmouth.jpg


abt? obe-kabe. :spin

[robbie380]

simmons is a fucking idiot. the guy also still says j-will would be better than yao if he didn't demolish his body in that bike accident.

[JamStone]

Just curious whether Mavs fans think they're any closer to a title. I already said I don't think the trade helped or hurt the Mavs either way. But, do Mavs fans think they have a legit chance at a title more so now with Kidd?

[Findog]

"Wait, nobody from Dallas is e-mailing me this week to tell me that I'm a moron for not liking the Jason Kidd trade?"

Hasn't he gone back and forth like three times already? From panning it, to defending it while adding that it wouldn't lead to a title, to now panning it again?



"Was it the consecutive road losses to San Antonio, Dallas and Utah that cooled you off?"

I didn't pop off or tout this team's horn after they beat Minnesota and Memphis, and it's equally foolish to dismiss them now. They lost on their final possession to LA and San Antonio, and went to the wire against Utah when playing their fourth game in five nights. Why don't you check back when Josh Howard's back heals and he's gotten himself together personally? Because right now we're a two-man team instead of the trio that the front office and coaching staff was hoping we'd be. Some guys handle tough situations off the court really well, like Brett Favre in that Monday Night game, or Kobe when the Colorado thing was going on, but it's obvious Josh's mind is elsewhere and he's not helping his team right now.


"Did you realize after Deron Williams' 17-20 that Kidd can't defend quick point guards anymore?"

Does Simmons realize that Williams torched Devin Harris for 41 points back in December? Does Simmons realize that Chris Paul torched Devin Harris for 33 points and 12 assists back in December? When has Steve Nash ever failed to do whatever he wanted against Dallas? Didn't Kobe once drop 62 points on a Finals-bound Mavericks team that featured Devin Harris as its best perimeter defender? Why doesn't Simmons ask Dwyane Wade and Baron Davis if they think Devin can guard them.


"Are you concerned after the displicable end-of-the-game benching in San Antonio that the OverCoacher (aka, Avery Johnson) and the Coach On the Floor (Kidd) might not be the greatest match?"

Absolutely, and he's finally on to something here. If Cuban felt he couldn't wait on a young and promising player because of the urgent pressure to win NOW, I don't understand why he would want to roll with a young and promising coach whose best days on the bench are in front of him. The average shelf life for an NBA coach is about three years, and Avery is a control-freak perfectionist in the Fratello/Skiles mode. If the Mavs flame out again or heaven forbid end up in the lottery, he's out in Dallas.


"Are you worried that your team's immediate future hinges on Erick Dampier playing hard for four months in a row,"

No, because we would have never beaten the Spurs without him two years ago, he did an admirable job on Shaq in the Finals, and maybe you missed it, but he curbstomped Pau Gasol on Sunday, and has actually looked like a center on BOTH ENDS OF THE FLOOR since Kidd got here. Kidd understands this team isn't doing anything in the postseason if they can't get points in the paint, and he's made it a priority to get Dampier involved on the offensive end.


"or that you don't have a bench,"

Jerry Stackhouse, Brandon Bass, Malik Rose and Devean George isn't a bench?


"and or that you have to work really, really, really superduperhard against good teams to get quality shots in the final five minutes of a game,"

Well, that was the whole point of getting Kidd here now, wasn't it? Because that was certainly the case with Devin Harris and Jason Terry running the offense.


"or that you're not getting stops when it matters?"

That's right, we traded Bill Russell and his 12 minutes per game to New Jersey.


"But what about the fact that he can't shoot?"

Look up his shooting percentage since joining the Mavs if you're not lazy. Go ahead. I haven't gotten to watch Kidd play on a regular basis since his first stint in Dallas. His mid-range jumper sucks, there's no question about that. But he's a decent three-point shooter. And he doesn't force shots, he only takes high-percentage looks. It's not like Devin Harris was the second coming of Ray Allen or Dale Ellis.


"Or that he can't guard any penetrating guard?"

Devin's ability to do so has been wildly overrated.


"Or that, when things slow down in the last four minutes of a game and everyone stops running, he's just not as effective?"

So Jason Kidd can't run half-court sets better than Devin Harris and Jason Terry? Did you watch the Warrior series last year?

This trade isn't a slam dunk like Rasheed to the Pistons or Gasol to the Lakers. There will be times the Mavs miss Harris' speed and ability to create a one-man fastbreak and Diop's shotblocking, but it absolutely makes Dallas better in the short-term, if we're talking this year and next. I don't know of any non-homer Mavs fan that decided to start planning a parade after the trade finally went through. I believe we'll enter the playoffs as a darkhorse, and it gives us a fighting chance that we didn't have before. Like everybody else, we're looking up at the Spurs and Lakers. Close doesn't cut it, and there is no such thing as moral victories, but how can you look at the two games last week against LA and San Antonio and conclude that Dallas can't hang with the elite teams in the League? Am I missing something or did they get blown out and run off the floor?

[Findog]

Life-time, Kidd is 0-fer against Western Conference playoff foes and has just one series win vs. a 50-win team in the playoffs. His inability to shoot kills Kidd-led offenses come the playoffs. He's a great, but Simmons is right on about his flaws. I saw 50-win, Kidd-led Suns teams with home-court advantage lose in the first round. That was nearly a decade ago.

You don't think Kidd might do better with Dirk and Josh as opposed to Rex Chapman and Penny Hardaway needing to be put down like Barbaro stage of his career?

[DarrinS]

Kidd does bring a lot of playoff failure experience to the table, so he should jel quite nicely with the Mavs.

[ehz33satx]

[QUOTE=Findog]
Jerry Stackhouse, Brandon Bass, Malik Rose and Devean George isn't a bench?

You don't even know your own roster? Malik Rose used to play for the Spurs, he now languishes in New York. Your players name is Malik Allen.

[baseline bum]

Man, this guy just shits on every team in the league.

[Findog]

[QUOTE=Findog]
Jerry Stackhouse, Brandon Bass, Malik Rose and Devean George isn't a bench?

You don't even know your own roster? Malik Rose used to play for the Spurs, he now languishes in New York. Your players name is Malik Allen.

One's an undersized PF, the other's a center with shooting range out to 18 feet. I damn well know the difference between them. It's a typo, shitbag.

[jag]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUfn0BRAdbA cricket fight

that was intense

[hater]

:lol

[LEONARD]

Too early to say...I think they're better. He just happened to come over at the start of a brutal stretch...

Dirk's stats

Before Category After
22.8 Points/game 29.4
47.1 Field-goal pct. 51.2
29.1 3-point pct. 53.6
16.8 Shots/game 18.4
4.0 Assists/game 2.7

Can't find the team stats, but everything is up, including ppg and points give up per game (both up about 3 per game).

[Findog]

Too early to say...I think they're better. He just happened to come over at the start of a brutal stretch...

Dirk's stats

Before Category After
22.8 Points/game 29.4
47.1 Field-goal pct. 51.2
29.1 3-point pct. 53.6
16.8 Shots/game 18.4
4.0 Assists/game 2.7

Can't find the team stats, but everything is up, including ppg and points give up per game (both up about 3 per game).

Actually, the opposite is true for the team overall. Offensive efficiency is down while defensive efficiency is up. Opposite of conventional wisdom.

[DazedAndConfused]

The trade the Mavs should have made

http://thehype.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/don-nelson.jpg

[Findog]

Kobe will try to shoot some shots on the Spurs, but he's a fluke. Spurs over the Lakers in five games in the Conference Finals, because the refs will give one game to Kobe and the Flukers. No surprises there

Hi Jeff.

America, eatin' my lunch from a single bowl in my parents basement, where I'm livin'. Happy Birthday, I'm forty-three.

Don't want to waste those precious calories...chewin'. Jesus come move my jaw for me, help me get my sloppy food down my throat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfan5MacmsI

[lonestr]

You don't think Kidd might do better with Dirk and Josh as opposed to Rex Chapman and Penny Hardaway needing to be put down like Barbaro stage of his career?

Findog, the Mavs do not have a talent problem irregardless of the trade and adjustments that have been made so far. What this all points to is 'Leadership". Dallas is in desparate need of someone stepping up and taking over the team. It's that simple. Avery new this problem when taking over and so did Cuban. Dirk is not the leader everyone believes him to be which posed a huge problem after the 2006 Finals. The trade for Kidd was to do exactly that despite his pedigree resume. How the rest of the team reacts to Kidd and accepts him as their leader is the question. Hopefully it will all come together before the playoffs start.

[Findog]

Dirk is not the leader everyone believes him to be which posed a huge problem after the 2006 Finals. The trade for Kidd was to do exactly that despite his pedigree resume. How the rest of the team reacts to Kidd and accepts him as their leader is the question. Hopefully it will all come together before the playoffs start.

I think the Dirk is a soft pussy choker thing is way overblown. There's a sliver of truth to it. Was he not a leader when his team beat the Spurs? Or the Suns? Does it not take mental discipline and toughness to do that?

[Findog]

Definitely didn't make them a better team. But, in my opinion, it still wasn't a bad trade because they weren't going to win it with Devin Harris either and they were trying to shake things up. Didn't help, but didn't hurt them that much either. The draft picks probably hurt more than losing Harris and Diop.

Malik Allen has been a nice surprise. He brings a bit different skillset than Diop, but he can rebound and commit six fouls just as well as Diop, and he's not an offensive nonentity like Diop.

The 2008 pick is lottery-protected if we miss the playoffs.

[mavsfan1000]

Dallas got a lot more than I thought. Everyone talks about Kidd, Diop, and Harris. The big surprises are Wright and Allen. Both have done a solid job so far. Wright looks like he should be starting at the 2 guard as he has been solid on defense and offense. Allen has done just as good of a job as Diop was doing as a backup. New Jersey gutted their offense with this trade and can't even get to 80 points. Dallas has all the offensive firepower without surrendering too much defense.

[Findog]

I actually like Stackhouse starting at the 2, he solves the size and scoring problem, and he can take Josh's backup minutes at the 3. Wright should be getting some of those minutes at the 2 to split with Terry.

[mavsfan1000]

I actually like Stackhouse starting at the 2, he solves the size and scoring problem, and he can take Josh's backup minutes at the 3. Wright should be getting some of those minutes at the 2 to split with Terry.
It's alright but my first choice would be Wright. He especially will be useful against the Kobe Bryant's/Mcgrady type of players. Making Terry the 6th man was a great move I feel as he is too much of a defensive liability as a starter.

[lonestr]

I think the Dirk is a soft pussy choker thing is way overblown. There's a sliver of truth to it. Was he not a leader when his team beat the Spurs? Or the Suns? Does it not take mental discipline and toughness to do that?

You are missing the point. Every team plays tough against the Spurs, Dallas is no different. Who wants to be the team to claim "We beat the Spurs!". But who wants to be the team to say "We are the Champions!" Take a close look at our team. It doesn't take a genius to name who the leader is. I never made the comment that Dirk was a soft pussy choker. I remember during the WC finals in 2006 when the struggle for leadership came up and Jason Terry was calling for team meetings at his house to get everyone on the same page. I saw it again during the first round playoff series against Golden State. It was all mentioned by the sports announcers.

Discipline is one thing, but mental toughness is another. Otherwise, you'd be the 2006 NBA Champions. Look, San Antonio does not have the most talented players in the NBA. Yes, the Spurs are very disciplined, but they are also killers under the leadership of Tim Duncan. Avery knows this and wants someone to lead and instill killer insticts to the team.

[JMarkJohns]

Yes, Simmons is an idiot. He gets paid to write stuff that gets a reaction. Sort of like Charles Barkley gets paid to spew Hot Sports opinions.

First of all, this is old news. This is over a week old. He judges the trade based on 4 games against the 3 or 4 best oppoents in the West at the time.
The Mavs lost to the Hornets on Kidds 2nd day here. Big surprise. Then the Mavs lost to the Spurs, Lakers and Jazz all by 1 possession in regulation and those 4 games were played in 5 days. The results would have been the same with Harris.

While it is factual that the Mavs team is now "Older", they aren't as old as the Spurs. And they are more experienced now. Kidd brings playoff toughness and experience that Harris could not.

Myth:
The team is worse now than before. Totally wrong. While Harris was a decent scorer 17-18 points per game. He only avg 4-5 assists and 2-3 rebounds. Overall his production is far less than Kidds 10 assist per game 11 points per game and 7-8 rebounds per game.

And what people do not see, unless they watch all the Mavs games, is that Kidd makes everyone around him (except Josh Howard) better. He gets them the ball in a much better position to score where as Harris simply dribbled it up and passed it to another player for an Isolation play.

Myth:
Kidd shoots poorly. While Kidd's 2 point FG % is not the best he does shoot over 35% from 3 point range. And he can make a big shot if needed. But that is not why he is here.

Myth:
Losing Diop hurts the Mavs further. Wrong.
While Diop was a good back up to Damp he was never a scorer and had foul problems. Now that Kidd is here Damp is playing better than ever so we miss Diop even less. Furthermore, Malik Allen has done a nice job playing back up for Damp and he scores twice as much as Diop. Also Magloire is starting to get some time so he should be in shape by the Playoffs. So we will then have a 3 head center position if needed. Damp, Allen, Magloire and that is better than Damp/Diop

Myth:
Now that Harris and Diop are gone the Spurs will run all over the Mavs. Wrong
the game last week was a one possession game and Kidd and co. did a very nice job on Parker. If Josh Howard had been healthy (he is still on about 85%) the Mavs would have won that game and the next 2.

Additionally, we got a good young player in Anotine Wright who is finally getting some playing time under stubborn Avery Johnson's system.

Kidd brings a much larger defender for the bigger gaurds in the NBA. Harris was small/slight of build and was somewhat Fragile. Harris has missed more games in 4 years than Kidd has in 13 years.

And lastly, Kidd has made it fun to play the game again. If you watch the Mavs closely, you see that everyone on the team is just more excited about playing. Everyone is passing the ball and assists are up and Isolations are down. Bottom line, if Dirk's happy about it, that's what matters most.

Our only problem now is getting Avery to stop micro-managing the team and let Kidd run the offensive flow.

I hope that answers your questions.

You're 0-5 vs. Western Conference playoff teams and in those games Kidd has an average +/- rating of like -9.

You're worse off for the trade, just as the Suns are. Your Mavs beat the Spurs with Harris as a second-year point and Diop as a backup reclamation project. You advanced to the Finals. You really should have won the Finals but collapsed. As a fan who's watched a ton of Kidd I can tell you his greatest weaknesses have more of an impact come playoff time than do his greatest strengths.

[DazedAndConfused]

You're 0-5 vs. Western Conference playoff teams and in those games Kidd has an average +/- rating of like -9.

You're worse off for the trade, just as the Suns are. Your Mavs beat the Spurs with Harris as a second-year point and Diop as a backup reclamation project. You advanced to the Finals. You really should have won the Finals but collapsed. As a fan who's watched a ton of Kidd I can tell you his greatest weaknesses have more of an impact come playoff time than do his greatest strengths.

Sssshhh don't you know Mav fans don't like dealing with reality.

[JMarkJohns]

You don't think Kidd might do better with Dirk and Josh as opposed to Rex Chapman and Penny Hardaway needing to be put down like Barbaro stage of his career?

Or Kevin Johnson, or Marion, or Olympian Gugliotta, or pre-surgery McDyess or 15-8 Clifford Robinson, or 6th man Danny Manning, or 6th man Rodney Rogers...

Look, I'm not saying I ever expected a Title, but Kidd had plenty of talent, was much younger, more athletic and a better shooter, while the west wasn't nearly as stacked.

I'm not saying Dirk and Howard aren't enough to finally net Kidd his first Western Conference series win, but I wouldn't expect anything more than the first round.

I've seen more of Kidd than most here.... Hell, I saw a better Kidd fail.

[mavsfan1000]

Or Kevin Johnson, or Marion, or Olympian Gugliotta, or pre-surgery McDyess or 15-8 Clifford Robinson, or 6th man Danny Manning, or 6th man Rodney Rogers...

Look, I'm not saying I ever expected a Title, but Kidd had plenty of talent, was much younger, more athletic and a better shooter, while the west wasn't nearly as stacked.

I'm not saying Dirk and Howard aren't enough to finally net Kidd his first Western Conference series win, but I wouldn't expect anything more than the first round.

I've seen more of Kidd than most here.... Hell, I saw a better Kidd fail.
This is by far the most talented team Kidd's ever been on. Kidd has gotten to the Finals twice with a far less talented team with Martin as their best goto guy. :lol

[Indazone]

This is by far the most talented team Kidd's ever been on. Kidd has gotten to the Finals twice with a far less talented team with Martin as their best goto guy. :lol

Not getting to the finals in this rodeo.

[DazedAndConfused]

Kidd was also playing in the Leastern conference. Big difference.

[mavsfan1000]

Kidd was also playing in the Leastern conference. Big difference.
Well Kidd as the best player on the team will probably fail. Kidd as the third best player on the team or possibly 4th is a whole different situation. A lot less pressure when Kidd doesn't have to be the savior for this team. Dallas hasn't gotten used to playing with Kidd yet and that schedule would be brutal to any team.

[DazedAndConfused]

Well Kidd as the best player on the team will probably fail. Kidd as the third best player on the team or possibly 4th is a whole different situation. A lot less pressure when Kidd doesn't have to be the savior for this team. Dallas hasn't gotten used to playing with Kidd yet and that schedule would be brutal to any team.

I agree Kidd isn't the problem. It's Avery.

[kskonn]

Well Kidd as the best player on the team will probably fail. Kidd as the third best player on the team or possibly 4th is a whole different situation. A lot less pressure when Kidd doesn't have to be the savior for this team. Dallas hasn't gotten used to playing with Kidd yet and that schedule would be brutal to any team.


If Kidd is the 4th who is three?? Terry? just asking. I would go with Dirk, Howard, Kidd, Terry. Maybe switch Terry and Kidd, is that on par with your comment?

[mavsfan1000]

If Kidd is the 4th who is three?? Terry? just asking. I would go with Dirk, Howard, Kidd, Terry. Maybe switch Terry and Kidd, is that on par with your comment?
When Terry is on, he is ahead of Kidd. I expect Howard to get back to normal soon as well. He is more important to this team. Overall though I would put Kidd over Terry. Terry definitely can't run the point guard by himself though so they both are important.
1. Nowitzki
2. Howard
3. Kidd
4. Terry

[Findog]

You're 0-5 vs. Western Conference playoff teams and in those games Kidd has an average +/- rating of like -9.

0-4, but who's counting? :)




You're worse off for the trade, just as the Suns are.

We may not be better, but we're not worse.



Your Mavs beat the Spurs with Harris as a second-year point and Diop as a backup reclamation project. You advanced to the Finals. You really should have won the Finals but collapsed.

Dominating the regular season last year meant the Mavs felt no need to alter their approach after Miami as the trade deadline approached. The Golden State series changed that. Even before the Kidd trade, Avery had moved Terry to the bench and had done quite a few things differently. Do you honestly think the pre-trade Mavs would've beaten the Spurs, Lakers or Jazz with Harris and Diop? Possibly, but I don't think the front office was confident.

It wasn't that they were psychologically damaged after the last two playoff exits, as many critics suggest, it's that there was an aura of negativity surrounding the team because of those exits and something needed to be done to give the team a jolt. Winning teams tend to be happy teams, and yet there was nothing happy about this team. I don't think the Mavs are going to win a championship this year, but I know they're not worse, and they weren't going to win a title with what they had. Like Phoenix, they have shortened their window and are going all-in. And for both teams, it's too early to say they've failed. I still think the Shaq experiment has a chance of working if D'Antoni can utilize him properly. And in Dallas, I would say the biggest impediment to our postseason success is not the talent on the floor, but what appears to be a growing rift between the players and the coach.

[DazedAndConfused]

It was a lateral move at best.

[mavsfan1000]

It was a lateral move at best.
Uh read the comments up above and it definitely wasn't a lateral move. The ones not mentioned are the key to the deal. Wright and Allen were solid players off the bench for New Jersey. Both good defenders and can score. This team needed a well rounded 2 guard to face the Kobe's and Mcgrady's of the league. The key is if Avery utilizes this. Allen has been a good midrange shooter and is a better defender than I thought. Dallas has a much better bench now and Kidd has enough talent around him. I didn't even mention Magloire but he could be useful as well once he gets into shape.

[DazedAndConfused]

If Avery can't utilize Kidd then it is a lateral move. He ain't getting any younger.

[endrity]

If Avery can't utilize Kidd then it is a lateral move. He ain't getting any younger.

America, eatin' my lunch from a single bowl in my parents basement, where I'm livin'. Happy Birthday, I'm forty-three.

Don't want to waste those precious calories...chewin'. Jesus come move my jaw for me, help me get my sloppy food down my throat.

[mavsfan1000]

If Avery can't utilize Kidd then it is a lateral move. He ain't getting any younger.
Too early to tell. Kidd keeps looking better though. Even in Dallas's losses, Kidd looked pretty good. It's not easy to change so drastically at point guard. Harris and Kidd are completely different type of point guards. Kidd looked very good these last 2 games and it didn't look like Avery was trying to change Kidd's game.

[genomefreak13]

Jerry Stackhouse, Brandon Bass, Malik Rose and Devean George isn't a bench?



When the hell did Dallas acquire Malik Rose??? CONSPIRACY!!! I tell you! CONSPIRACY !!! :wtf

[Findog]

When the hell did Dallas acquire Malik Rose??? CONSPIRACY!!! I tell you! CONSPIRACY !!! :wtf

Now he can't guard Dirk!

Yeah, typo, already got called out on it.

[JMarkJohns]

Loss vs. New Orleans
Loss vs. Spurs
Loss vs. Lakers
Loss vs. Utah
Loss vs. Houston

Looks like 0-5 vs. Western Conference playoff teams to me.

[Findog]

Loss vs. New Orleans
Loss vs. Spurs
Loss vs. Lakers
Loss vs. Utah
Loss vs. Houston

Looks like 0-5 vs. Western Conference playoff teams to me.

Oh yeah, forgot the Houston one. Oops. It counts in the standings, but I didn't read too much into that one since Dirk was suspended.

[JMarkJohns]

This is by far the most talented team Kidd's ever been on. Kidd has gotten to the Finals twice with a far less talented team with Martin as their best goto guy. :lol

Oh yes, that vaunted Conferene that was known as the Leastern Conference. The year was 01-02 and Kidd has just led his Nets past three sub-50 win teams to reach his first Finals. He promtly gets swept. Yes, you read that right. His Nets reached the Finals from the East whilest never playing a 50-win team along the way. While the 02-03 season may have been a bit more impressive, given that they actually defeated a 50-win Pistons teams to get to the Finals, considering a 50-win team may not even make the playoffs out west, and the eventual Western Conference champion will likely have to defeat three 50-win clubs to reach the Finals, reaching twice while only playing/beating one 50-win club should really be put in its proper context.

[JMarkJohns]

Oh yeah, forgot the Houston one. Oops. It counts in the standings, but I didn't read too much into that one since Dirk was suspended.

And Ming was out. WTF?! Dallas had the better talented team in the game. Just not the better play.

[Findog]

And Ming was out. WTF?! Dallas had the better talented team in the game. Just not the better play.


Yeah, I know Ming was out. I just felt Dirk would've made a difference. A 15-point difference? Maybe, maybe not.

[DazedAndConfused]

http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/watchdog/blog/mark-cuban-sirius.jpg

[Findog]

http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/watchdog/blog/mark-cuban-sirius.jpg


America, eatin' my lunch from a single bowl in my parents basement, where I'm livin'. Happy Birthday, I'm forty-three.

Don't want to waste those precious calories...chewin'. Jesus come move my jaw for me, help me get my sloppy food down my throat.

[mavsfan1000]

And Ming was out. WTF?! Dallas had the better talented team in the game. Just not the better play.
You act like Dallas is a finished product. It's going to take awhile to get used to Kidd's style but this is the most talent Kidd's ever had on a team. If he can't win with this team in the playoffs, than you have a point. Otherwise I think too much was asked of Kidd on his past teams to be successful. It's not like Dallas gave up an all-star to get Kidd like Phoenix did to get Shaq. Marion>>>Harris in value to team.

[JMarkJohns]

You act like Dallas is a finished product. It's going to take awhile to get used to Kidd's style but this is the most talent Kidd's ever had on a team. If he can't win with this team in the playoffs, than you have a point. Otherwise I think too much was asked of Kidd on his past teams to be successful. It's not like Dallas gave up an All-star to get Kidd like Phoenix did to get Shaq. Marion>>>Harris in value to team.

I've not acted like anything. I've said nothing but facts the entire time. Sure, they are past facts, but some are as recent as this year. The Mav are still 0-4 vs. Western Conference playoff teams as an entire team. Kidd got personally torched by Paul and Williams, and Alston even made him his bitch for good measure. Parker is still hobbled and getting back into top game shape, else he'd have bent Kidd over as well.

I've never said that a Kidd-led Dallas squad can't win a series. I've merely stated that history, past and present, isn't looking very bright, and that, if he should prevail in the first round for the first time in his Western Conference career, that I wouldn't expect much after that. He can't shoot. Any team that can play a modicum of defense can exploit this if they can control the tempo. If slowed, and the ball is in Kidd's hands, his defender will play off of him, relegating Kidd into forcing a bad pass, or into a perimeter jumper that has roughly 25% chance of going in. If the ball isn't in his hands, then there's the player you double off of until the ball is in his hands.

I've seen it. I saw it for five playoff runs. I don't know why some just write me off. And that was when Kidd was just reaching his athletic and skilled peak. He's far from the athlete he once was and his offensive skills are pretty much limited to layups and transition passes. Sure, he'll net you better stats than Harris, but the ball is in his control far more than it ever was with Harris. He's not near the defender that Harris is, so the Mavericks will now have issues with any team with a lightning quick PG.

I'm not saying you can't have hope. Of course you can. But i'm not just hating. I've seen the good and the bad and come playoff time, vs. tough Western Conference teams, Kidd has never fared well. Not even with talent.

Maybe Dallas is different. Maybe he is the missing piece and it just hasn't clicked vs. a tough Western Conferene playoff contender yet. Maybe everything will be fine and that switch will get struck and everyone else will be eating Kidd's dust - save for me, I'll be chin deep in crow - but as someone who's seen the best Kidd can offer, I can honestly say I don't think it's enough.

[JMarkJohns]

^ Sorry for the book... :lol

[Findog]

I don't think Dallas is going to win a title this year, but if I could trade for any roster, I'd only put San Antonio, Detroit, Boston and LA above us, in that order. And I'm having a hard time understanding what the significance of Kidd's playoff failures in Phoenix were:

1997: the 40-win Suns lose to the 57-win Sonics
1998: the 56-win Suns featuring a nucleus of Kidd, McDyess, Cliff Robinson, Danny Manning and Kevin Johnson lose to the 56-win Spurs featuring the Twin Towers.
1999: The 27-23 Suns lose to the 35-15 Blazers.
2000: The Suns beat a Duncan-less Spurs team and they get hammered by the Shaq/Kobe juggernaut.
2001: A nucleus of Kidd, Robinson, a young Marion and a declining Penny lose to the Webber, Divac, Peja Kings, who had HCA.

Honestly, how did they underachieve? What were they supposed to do that they didn't? How can you single out Kidd as a failure for his team's collective shortcomings? The only series I think that they could've won was against Sacramento.

And as far as his Nets teams went, were they better than the Lakers and Spurs? I don't think so. It's the same kind of criticism that was leveled against KG when his teams were always seeded seventh or eighth and going up against the big dogs without HCA. What did you think was going to happen?

[ducks]

Oh yes, that vaunted Conferene that was known as the Leastern Conference. The year was 01-02 and Kidd has just led his Nets past three sub-50 win teams to reach his first Finals. He promtly gets swept. Yes, you read that right. His Nets reached the Finals from the East whilest never playing a 50-win team along the way. While the 02-03 season may have been a bit more impressive, given that they actually defeated a 50-win Pistons teams to get to the Finals, considering a 50-win team may not even make the playoffs out west, and the eventual Western Conference champion will likely have to defeat three 50-win clubs to reach the Finals, reaching twice while only playing/beating one 50-win club should really be put in its proper context.
jason kidd played tony parker a rookie and the first three games tp was in the finals mvp talk in that series
:hat
yes that great jason kidd

[ducks]

Oh yeah, forgot the Houston one. Oops. It counts in the standings, but I didn't read too much into that one since Dirk was suspended.
no ming no dirk
no differnence

[ducks]

I do not think kidd is the answer
he had to be traded for after the trade was announced and not done
was harris causing problems in dallas?
did dirk need someone else to shoulder some responisblility?
kidd is not all that
he can pass better then harris but harris with this many years experience is greater then kidd at that time

[Findog]

He's not near the defender that Harris is, so the Mavericks will now have issues with any team with a lightning quick PG.

The Mavs already had issues with lightning-quick PGs. Deron Williams hung 17 points and 20 assists on the Mavs in SLC. He lit up Devin for 41 points back in December. Chris Paul lit up the Mavs in Kidd's first game, but he lit up Devin for 33 points and 11 assists back in December. He lit up Devin last week in a Nets uniform for 25 points and 16 assists. Tony Parker has averaged 19 points and 6 assists against Devin since the beginning of the Western Finals two years ago, and that's about in line with what Parker does. Ask Baron Davis and Dwyane Wade if they think Devin can guard them.

We will miss Devin's speed in the open court and his ability to create a one-man fast break, but he was injury-prone and neither he nor Terry could run a half-court offense in crunchtime in the playoffs.



I'm not saying you can't have hope. Of course you can. But i'm not just hating. I've seen the good and the bad and come playoff time, vs. tough Western Conference teams, Kidd has never fared well. Not even with talent.

I don't see how those Phoenix teams underachieved. What series did they lose that they should've won?


Maybe Dallas is different. Maybe he is the missing piece and it just hasn't clicked vs. a tough Western Conferene playoff contender yet. Maybe everything will be fine and that switch will get struck and everyone else will be eating Kidd's dust - save for me, I'll be chin deep in crow - but as someone who's seen the best Kidd can offer, I can honestly say I don't think it's enough.

What you saw was Phoenix sent home by better teams, not just Kidd going fishing. I personally am not optimistic about our ability to go further than the second round, but we're no worse than what we were. I don't read too much into the Hornets and Rockets games. No such thing as moral victories in a West race this tight, but Dallas showed it can hang with San Antonio and LA by losing on their final possession on the road. Those games could've gone either way. That's with Kidd getting used to his new team and Josh Howard playing the worst ball of his career, due to his back contusion and the stuff going on in his personal life. And we had a 4th quarter lead after rallying from a 21-point deficit at Utah when we were playing our fourth game in five nights. Close doesn't cut it, but there's no way you can say the Mavericks can't beat the favorites. We're a darkhorse, just like Phoenix, Utah and New Orleans.

[mavsfan1000]

I don't think Dallas is going to win a title this year, but if I could trade for any roster, I'd only put San Antonio, Detroit, Boston and LA above us, in that order. And I'm having a hard time understanding what the significance of Kidd's playoff failures in Phoenix were:

1997: the 40-win Suns lose to the 57-win Sonics
1998: the 56-win Suns featuring a nucleus of Kidd, McDyess, Cliff Robinson, Danny Manning and Kevin Johnson lose to the 56-win Spurs featuring the Twin Towers.
1999: The 27-23 Suns lose to the 35-15 Blazers.
2000: The Suns beat a Duncan-less Spurs team and they get hammered by the Shaq/Kobe juggernaut.
2001: A nucleus of Kidd, Robinson, a young Marion and a declining Penny lose to the Webber, Divac, Peja Kings, who had HCA.

Honestly, how did they underachieve? What were they supposed to do that they didn't? How can you single out Kidd as a failure for his team's collective shortcomings? The only series I think that they could've won was against Sacramento.

And as far as his Nets teams went, were they better than the Lakers and Spurs? I don't think so. It's the same kind of criticism that was leveled against KG when his teams were always seeded seventh or eighth and going up against the big dogs without HCA. What did you think was going to happen?
Thanks. I knew that he didn't have enough talent to go all the way. His shooting is what keeps him human. I guess I can understand why he is vulnerable in the half court but this team is very good at covering this weakness. Surrounding him with great individual scorers and rebounding are the keys to covering up his weakness. Unlike his other teams in the past, this team is good in the half court. They got many options and Kidd is shooting a good percentage from 3 point range this year. Btw Phenix dropped off big time once Kidd got traded.

[Findog]

but harris with this many years experience is greater then kidd at that time

Harris is not better than Kidd. Whatever Kidd's faults and shortcomings, I'd rather have him than Harris. Harris can't shoot either, Harris can't get his teammates easy looks like Kidd, and his reputation as a shut-down defender is overblown. Kidd got lit up by Tony Parker, Deron Williams and Chris Paul. Well, so has Devin Harris.

[Findog]

Thanks. I knew that he didn't have enough talent to go all the way. His shooting is what keeps him human. I guess I can understand why he is vulnerable in the half court but this team is very good at covering this weakness. Surrounding him with great individual scorers and rebounding are the keys to covering up his weakness. Unlike his other teams in the past, this team is good in the half court. They got many options and Kidd is shooting a good percentage from 3 point range this year. Btw Phenix dropped off big time once Kidd got traded.

His shooting isn't even THAT bad. His mid-range jumper sucks, but he's a actually a decent three-point shooter. And I'm not going by box scores, I've watched every game since he got here. He doesn't force shots either, he only takes high-percentage looks.

[JMarkJohns]

Thanks. I knew that he didn't have enough talent to go all the way. His shooting is what keeps him human. I guess I can understand why he is vulnerable in the half court but this team is very good at covering this weakness. Surrounding him with great individual scorers and rebounding are the keys to covering up his weakness. Unlike his other teams in the past, this team is good in the half court. They got many options and Kidd is shooting a good percentage from 3 point range this year.

I never expected him to go all the way with Phoenix. Also, Kidd didn't play vs. San Antonio in 2000. He was out with a broken ankle. he returned for the Lakers' series.

It wasn't even so much that they lost, but also that they were never in the series. In 1998 they held HCA and still couldn't win. At some point excuses need to stop being made. Remember 2000 when the up-n-coming Mavs upset the heavuly favored Jazz? What about the 03-04 Nuggets over Sonics.

There's upsets all the time. Much more often back then because of the short series. In the Kidd era, they were lucky if they won a game a series. Sometimes they couldn't even manage that.

Again, I may be wrong. But I just don't think so. I'd say the Mavs have a coinflip's chance to get past the first round and then are lucky if they win two games in the second round.

I'd say the same for Phoenix, as of now, as well.

[Findog]

Remember 2000 when the up-n-coming Mavs upset the heavuly favored Jazz?

Those teams were neck and neck. There was no reason for the Jazz to be "heavily favored."


What about the 03-04 Nuggets over Sonics.

And the Warriors over the Mavs? Those are once in a decade kind of occurences.



There's upsets all the time. Much more often back then because of the short series. In the Kidd era, they were lucky if they won a game a series. Sometimes they couldn't even manage that.

I just don't see how Kidd can be so heavily condemned for those Phoenix teams not advancing. Or for those Nets teams to lose to the Lakers and Spurs.