"Gave up" or "outplayed"? [Archive]

RuffnReadyOzStyle

03-12-2008, 09:58 PM

So, I'm sure gonna get flamed for this thread, but I have to put it out there to work out if I'm insane or not.

Tonight, I thought we were thoroughly outplayed - out-hustled, out-thought, out-shot. The Hornets simply played much better than the Spurs in all aspects of the game from late in the 2nd quarter onward.

When things went wrong in the 3rd Q, a number of posters in the game thread said the Spurs had "given up". Commonly, when things go badly around here, posters say the team has "given up". I didn't think they gave up tonight until the game was clearly over (ie. 5 to go in the 4th when Pop brought in the bench).

Now, earlier in the season, in Dec/Jan, I saw the team give up a couple of times, and I admit that it does happen, especially in the first 40 games. However tonight, and in general at this time of the season with so much on the line, I haven't seen them give up at all. Tonight I saw them keep fighting as nothing fell their way and they were simultaneously unlucky and outplayed - the Hornets were hitting tough shots, flying around for rebounds that were also fortuitously falling for them, playing tough D. The Spurs were doing much the same except the shots and rebounds wouldn't fall right, and the Hornets' shot-making was simply too good for any D. The backbreaker was the great double by TP and Tim on a fading Peja who hit the rainbow from 18 ft.

Anyway, the point is, was this a case of "giving up" (in the 3rd Q) or being "outplayed"?

Obstructed_View

03-12-2008, 10:03 PM

Spurs have been outrebounded four games in a row. That's extraordinarily unfortuitous.

Kori Ellis

03-12-2008, 10:07 PM

Outplayed.

RuffnReadyOzStyle

03-12-2008, 10:15 PM

Spurs have been outrebounded four games in a row. That's extraordinarily unfortuitous.

Yes, it's a worrying trend, but odd because we've been out-rebounding teams all year. I just don't see them giving up during the most crucial stretch of the season. It could be related to footspeed, not effort. I agree with this from SenorSpur:

"First, they indicated that when the Spurs resort to a trapping style of defense, it's not as effective because of the advanced age and lack of quickness on the part of most of their defenders. This point was repeated by the same broadcast team in an earlier contest between these two teams earlier this season. It's a salient point because they really do seem to struggle against younger, quicker teams - like the Hornets. Their rotations are late, if they come at all, and they don't seem as quick to rebounds and loose balls. We all know if the Spurs cannot defend the opposition, it doesn't really matter what they do on the offensive end."

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89408

Sadly, I think age may finally be catching up with our team.

san antonio spurs

03-12-2008, 10:15 PM

Obstructed_View

03-12-2008, 10:23 PM

Yes, it's a worrying trend, but odd because we've been out-rebounding teams all year. I just don't see them giving up during the most crucial stretch of the season. It could be related to footspeed, not effort.

I could have sworn you just said that it was related to bad bounces, but whatever. Here's the easy way to tell who's right: If the Spurs continue to be outrebounded for the rest of the season and get bounced out of the first round of the playoffs by a younger, quicker team (since they are all younger and quicker) then you'll be right. If they decide to play smart basketball and show some effort then they'll magically start playing good defense, outrebounding teams, taking high percentage shots, drawing fouls and actually hitting the majority of their free throws. I wouldn't be surprised if that's coupled with having more points than their opponents at the end of games.

I'd certainly hate to think anyone in this league is capable of holding the Spurs to four points in a quarter when they are actually making a genuine effort to come back. But then I know better since the Spurs don't settle for jumpers when they're making an effort.

SenorSpur

03-12-2008, 10:26 PM

Outplayed. I don't want to hear any more shit about the team "is tired". Hell, every team in the league plays their own stretch of above-average teams. Every team in the league plays back-to-back games. That excuse is played out.

After being out played and getting their doors "blown off", Pop gave up.

DAINTX

03-12-2008, 10:26 PM

"Gave up" or "outplayed"?

Bitch-slapped.

Duncanoypi

03-12-2008, 10:27 PM

I think spurs were out rebounded because they missed a lot of shots...and how can you get the defensive rebounds if the opponets were hitting 50% + of their FG?

The Franchise

03-12-2008, 10:27 PM

I think a little of both.The Spurs looked very old tonight. :depressed

Obstructed_View

03-12-2008, 10:29 PM

I think spurs were out rebounded because they missed a lot of shots...and how can you get the defensive rebounds if the opponets were hitting 50% + of their FG?
Um, play defense? They certainly missed enough shots to be getting some offensive boards. Or they could have considered shooting from inside the paint more than once in the 4th quarter.

TDMVPDPOY

03-12-2008, 10:32 PM

is there still teh no mercy rule?

Budkin

03-12-2008, 10:32 PM

Beat the fuck down.

Ronaldo McDonald

03-12-2008, 10:33 PM

Manu gives a shit. You can always count on him to give a shit. It's jsut that defenses have been extremely effective at limiting his production lately because they've been rough with him and been clogging the paint. And to make things worse, his 3 has been off even when he's open.

When he's not a able to drive and kick out, guys like Horry, Finley and Bowen become about half as usefull as they are with him driving.

WalterBenitez

03-12-2008, 10:33 PM

Gave up! POP is showing the white flag everytime he can, I don't get it .. you can say CIA, KGP, MI5, CSI, but for is S.U.C.K.

RuffnReadyOzStyle

03-12-2008, 10:34 PM

I could have sworn you just said that it was related to bad bounces, but whatever. Here's the easy way to tell who's right: If the Spurs continue to be outrebounded for the rest of the season and get bounced out of the first round of the playoffs by a younger, quicker team (since they are all younger and quicker) then you'll be right. If they decide to play smart basketball and show some effort then they'll magically start playing good defense, outrebounding teams, taking high percentage shots, drawing fouls and actually hitting the majority of their free throws. I wouldn't be surprised if that's coupled with having more points than their opponents at the end of games.

I'd certainly hate to think anyone in this league is capable of holding the Spurs to four points in a quarter when they are actually making a genuine effort to come back. But then I know better since the Spurs don't settle for jumpers when they're making an effort.

I've seen teams give up, and I just didn't see that tonight.

If you're right and we did give up in the middle of the 3rd (which is when people started saying it in the game thread), then we may as well go fishing now, but I don't see it. I think from that point on we kept trying, but a combination of bad bounces and being out-shot (they made some really tough ones while we couldn't make a wide open jumper all night), and out-hustled (which could well be a combination of superior effort on the Hornets' part, and slower feet on the Spurs' part) added up to simply being outplayed.

I hope we're BOTH wrong, because if either of us is right there's no trophy this year.

Oh, and I don't like arguing with people either. We're all on the same side, after all.

WalterBenitez

03-12-2008, 10:34 PM

Send Los Toros, they will do a better job on the road!

Korny Earl

03-12-2008, 10:39 PM

outplayed.. this isn't high school ball. who the hell gets paid that amount of money to give up? pop would put foot to ass if he smelled that

RuffnReadyOzStyle

03-12-2008, 10:40 PM

One more comment - it was on odd game because we couldn't hit a jumper at any point - 2-18 from 3 and 7-17 from the line, not to mention all the wide open 2s missed.

Despite that, we stayed in it until the middle of the third by destroying the Hornets inside. TP and Manu were penetrating at will for 2 quarters before the Hornets pushed the D up a notch. Chandler is the key there - he was out for much of the 1st half with 2 early fouls, and when he's in the game they are tough inside. When he's not, they are marshmallow.

greens

03-12-2008, 10:41 PM

Looks like we are not talented anymore. I keep hearing that we are talented, where the hell was the talent? Can someone out of the big three make a play nowadays?
I noticed players that lost their confidence: Oberto, Stoudamire, Udoka.
And some that are out of it: Horry, Finley and Manu.
Players that still give a shit: Parker, Duncan, Vaughn and Bonner
A coach who's lost it: Pop

Go Spurs Go.
This year we repeat for sure. :smokin :fro

Disagree about Manu...He has been playing MVP level basketball in the past few months...without him, the Spurs would have been way lower in the seedings right now...

I don't know how you can say that he is out of it...

Even in today's game, he took 10 shot attempts, lower number of shot attempts because both Tony and Tim were rolling...hence, TP took more shot attempts...

The biggest problem is the ROLE players...and I mean ALL of them right now...

A team cannot win with only THREE players playing solid basketball...it takes a full team effort to win a game or a series...It's that simple...Finley/Udoka/Bruce are struggling with their shots lately. Horry's shots just went away somewhere...Damon who had a brilliant start with the Spurs got lost somewhere...

Tony also recently had a few stretch of games where he has played inconsistent basketball. He is just back from the injury, so he's not a 100% yet. Today, he was solid. Tim was solid too. And Manu had a high percentage shooting night as well.

So it looks like The Big Three have been doing everything on their own a bit...That's not going to get it done. They are playing high minutes, they are getting tired...While the role players are not doing much at the moment.

RuffnReadyOzStyle

03-12-2008, 10:41 PM

outplayed.. this isn't high school ball. who the hell gets paid that amount of money to give up? pop would put foot to ass if he smelled that

That's what I reckon.

Doesn't make the loss any kinder though.

RuffnReadyOzStyle

03-12-2008, 10:45 PM

Disagree about Manu...He has been playing MVP level basketball in the past few months...without him, the Spurs would have been way lower in the seedings right now...

I don't know how you can say that he is out of it...

Even in today's game, he took 10 shot attempts, lower number of shot attempts because both Tony and Tim were rolling...hence, TP took more shot attempts...

The biggest problem is the ROLE players...and I mean ALL of them right now...

A team cannot win with only THREE players playing solid basketball...it takes a full team effort to win a game or a series...It's that simple...Finley/Udoka/Bruce are struggling with their shots lately. Horry's shots just went away somewhere...Damon who had a brilliant start with the Spurs got lost somewhere...

Tony also recently had a few stretch of games where he has played inconsistent basketball. He is just back from the injury, so he's not a 100% yet. Today, he was solid. Tim was solid too. And Manu had a high percentage shooting night as well.

So it looks like The Big Three have been doing everything on their own a bit...That's not going to get it done. They are playing high minutes, they are getting tired...While the role players are not doing much at the moment.

Good post. :tu

We can't win unless the role players at least break even with the other team's role players, and the only game they've done that in the last 4 was the win over Denver.

Supreme_Being

03-12-2008, 10:47 PM

*sigh*

TDMVPDPOY

03-12-2008, 10:47 PM

BURN THAT LOS SPURS BS JERSEY, and NEVER NEVER bring that shit back....jinx

san antonio spurs

03-12-2008, 10:51 PM

Emeyin

03-12-2008, 10:55 PM

Disagree about Manu...He has been playing MVP level basketball in the past few months...without him, the Spurs would have been way lower in the seedings right now...

I don't know how you can say that he is out of it...

Even in today's game, he took 10 shot attempts, lower number of shot attempts because both Tony and Tim were rolling...hence, TP took more shot attempts...

The biggest problem is the ROLE players...and I mean ALL of them right now...

A team cannot win with only THREE players playing solid basketball...it takes a full team effort to win a game or a series...It's that simple...Finley/Udoka/Bruce are struggling with their shots lately. Horry's shots just went away somewhere...Damon who had a brilliant start with the Spurs got lost somewhere...

Tony also recently had a few stretch of games where he has played inconsistent basketball. He is just back from the injury, so he's not a 100% yet. Today, he was solid. Tim was solid too. And Manu had a high percentage shooting night as well.

So it looks like The Big Three have been doing everything on their own a bit...That's not going to get it done. They are playing high minutes, they are getting tired...While the role players are not doing much at the moment.

I agree with this. The bench/role players are playing like crap right now.

Spurs put me in panic mode with tonight's loss. Hopefully they can win the next few games so I can snap out of it.

Sigz

03-12-2008, 10:56 PM

What a pathetic game.

Obstructed_View

03-12-2008, 10:57 PM

I hope we're BOTH wrong, because if either of us is right there's no trophy this year.
No, if you're right, there's no second round. If I'm right then they'll work their way out of this funk, start playing smart, disciplined basketball with some energy and fire on both ends and start having some chances to win. If they can do it for 48 minutes, something they haven't done since the beginnig of the season, they'll become an elite team again and go deep into the playoffs. What worries me is that this will end up like 2006 where Pop thinks he can coach the team out of the funk rather than tell them to act like a team of professionals.

greens

03-12-2008, 11:02 PM

My comment regarding Manu was about this game, he had no speed, no energy and his attitude was low considering his high standards. But I agree with you on the role players, who don't play their role as of late

In today's game, Manu took 10 shot attempts. His shooting percentage was pretty good, 5-10. He also had 4 assists. Both TP and TD took 16 shot attempts each...so I think the reason why Manu didn't try to score as much was because he saw them having a nice offensive night...On the Spurs, whoever is having a good offensive night, they usually get most shot attempts.

I do agree though...energy wise, Manu did look tired...I think that mostly has to do with how much he had to carry the team in the past few months and with the extra high minutes, plus with the opposing teams now constantly doubling him/putting more pressure on him. Even, Byron Scott, prior to the game had said the his team's first key is to limit Manu's scoring...

But yeah, he did look exhausted...

IF the ROLE players don't start picking things up ASAP, I think the entire Big Three will be exhausted by the time playoffs roll in.

Hence, I think right now, Pop needs to have a talk or something with the other players, like Finley/Udoka/Damon/Horry/etc...Or Tim/Manu/Tony have to even step it up more as team leaders and have a team meeting or something like that.

Don Quixote

03-12-2008, 11:04 PM

I was at the game, and it looked like they were playing hard and giving a good effort, at least until the middle of the 4th, when all the missed shots and bad bounces started to catch up to them. Plus, the Hornets were scoring every time down the floor and CP was making them look foolish. Soo ... they just got spanked by a good team.

greens

03-12-2008, 11:05 PM

Good post. :tu

We can't win unless the role players at least break even with the other team's role players, and the only game they've done that in the last 4 was the win over Denver.

Plus, factor in how good the other teams are right now...especially in the Western Conference. Those teams have role players stepping up. I don't think any of those teams only rely on three main players...

The competition is top notch right now...Hence, the Spurs need their entire team playing at a high level basketball. They cannot expect Tim/Manu/Tony to always bail them out every time.

Last year, they won because they were the best "team." Everyone contributed.

Obstructed_View

03-12-2008, 11:08 PM

If that's true, then Parker, Ginobili and Duncan should be on the bench for the Detroit game, and the rest of them should be required to carry the load.

Don Quixote

03-12-2008, 11:18 PM

A truly wretched second half. That's two awful second halves, a fade down the stretch against the Sons, and a tough win over a non-playoff team.

Not looking good right now. This is probably the worst I've seen the Silver & Black look in person since ... I don't know ... a game at home against the Pacers in 96. Reggie Miller and Indiana went up 20 in the first Q and never looked back in that one.

tmtcsc

03-12-2008, 11:19 PM

The team competed for 1 quarter. After that, they had nothing left. Although Tony's stats looked good, I'd like to see him distribute the ball better. We need the offense to flow AND get points from him. Once he can find that flow, we'll improve.

Tonight looked really bad. The schedule is a bitch and I think Pop knows that he needs to balance going off in a rage and realizing that his team is old and nights like this are going to happen.

Our bench was horrible. Finley has gone from extreme to extreme and Horry has been off too. We have plenty of time to get our act together. We just need to get through the next 6 to 8 games as best as possible and gear up for the playoffs.

DarrinS

03-12-2008, 11:25 PM

I'm sure glad I TIVO'ed that giant piece 'o chit game. :bang

How many 3's did the team brick? Tony made two, right? TONY?

DAINTX

03-12-2008, 11:35 PM

"Gave up" or "outplayed"?

Jacked-up!

ploto

03-12-2008, 11:58 PM

There is another option-- the opponent is better.

Russ

03-13-2008, 12:07 AM

Spurs are dialing back their offense to avoid injury. No drives, very little cutting to the basket. The bad rebounding is a concern but, again, rebounding is mostly effort and desire.

Until the playoffs, you won't see the Spurs biggest advantage -- when "nerve" predominates.

crc21209

03-13-2008, 12:24 AM

I've noticed that the Spurs are not driving as much whether it be driving and attacking the basket or driving and kicking out to an open shooter. ? Could it be theyre saving the best for the stretch run to conserve energy for the playoffs and avoid injury now? Plus this schedule is really a bitch. 18 games in a month? Damn. 5th game in 7 days. There is no time to rest, no time to practice! Shit! I mean they were in the game in the 3rd quarter then we missed shots and they made every shot possible, fucking fade aways from West, Stojakovic, and other jackasses. EVERYTHING was going in, and NOTHING was going in for us. It's a bitch, but yes there were games like this last yr. Hopefully they can pull thru and make it thru this, I KNOW they can, its just a matter of when? I Believe.

word

03-13-2008, 12:24 AM

Spurs fans sitting around arguing about a game, then McMurphy sprays 'em down with water and issues his bet:

McMurphys Bet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W45XhDPTnX0)

Obstructed_View

03-13-2008, 12:44 AM

I've noticed that the Spurs are not driving as much whether it be driving and attacking the basket or driving and kicking out to an open shooter. ? Could it be theyre saving the best for the stretch run to conserve energy for the playoffs and avoid injury now?
If that were the case, they should be resting. Techincally they did take the second half off, but they should actually be on the bench. If a road division game with tiebreaker implications on the heels of a 1-2 stretch is so unimportant then they should probably just wrap it up for the year.

Ice009

03-13-2008, 12:50 AM

There is another option-- the opponent is better.

That's always your option isn't it Ploto? Any chance to rag on the Spurs. Why even post? pretty much all your posts that I've read are negative towards the Spurs.

Why are you here? Do you even like the Spurs at all? Or is Rasho the only reason?

RuffnReadyOzStyle

03-13-2008, 01:02 AM

Spurs are dialing back their offense to avoid injury. No drives, very little cutting to the basket. The bad rebounding is a concern but, again, rebounding is mostly effort and desire.

That's just plain wrong. Manu and TP were driving with impunity during the first half.

Ploto - other team is better = "outplayed".

TMTTRIO

03-13-2008, 01:21 AM

I do agree though...energy wise, Manu did look tired...I think that mostly has to do with how much he had to carry the team in the past few months and with the extra high minutes, plus with the opposing teams now constantly doubling him/putting more pressure on him. Even, Byron Scott, prior to the game had said the his team's first key is to limit Manu's scoring...

But yeah, he did look exhausted...

IF the ROLE players don't start picking things up ASAP, I think the entire Big Three will be exhausted by the time playoffs roll in.

That's one of my biggest concerns with Manu. He's been playing huge minutes for a while now and even though he's doing well with them he's been getting pretty banged up (like the hip injury he went out with) in just the last few games. I just hope he can stay healthy for the playoffs.