The Audacity of Hate

[Yonivore]

ABC News is reporting (http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4443788&page=1) Barack Obama's pastor, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, says blacks should not sing "God Bless America" but "God damn America." Wright thinks God should damn America for "treating our citizens as less than human" and "for [acting] like she is God and she is supreme." Wright also told his congregation on the Sunday after Sept. 11, 2001 that the United States had brought on al Qaeda's attacks because of its own terrorism. Among the "terrorism" Wright thinks the U.S. has supported is "terrorism against the Palestinians," by which he must mean Israel's efforts to defend itself.

Wright has been Obama's pastor for 20 years. He married Obama and his wife Michelle, baptized their two daughters and is credited by Obama for the title of his book, The Audacity of Hope. Obama says he was not at the church on the day Wright blamed America for 9/11. "It sounds like he was trying to be provocative," is the best Obama can offer on this one.

More generally, according to ABC, Obama has said, "I don't think my church is actually particularly controversial." This suggests that Obama considers Wright's statements about America (that it treats its citizens as less than human and brought 9/11 on itself) defensible. Obama's campaign aides are closer to the mark when they describe Wright's comments as "inflammatory rhetoric."

Obama has also said that Wright is "is like an old uncle who says things I don't always agree with." But who takes spiritual guidance from hate-spewing old uncles? Besides, you can pick your pastor but, you can't pick your relatives.

Wright isn't just someone with whom Obama is friendly. To criticize Obama for having friends with controversial, or even abhorrent, views would constitute guilt by association. But Wright is Obama's spiritual leader. To be sure, no thinking person always agrees with his minister, priest, or rabbi on political and social issues. But it's unusual for a thinking person to retain an affiliation with a church whose leader attacks his country unless, at a minimum, that person considers those attacks not "particularly controversial."

Obama should explain why he retained his apparently close affiliation with Wright and his church in more persuasive terms than he has to date. Otherwise, I think it's reasonable to draw adverse inferences based on that affiliation, including the inference that Obama doesn't quite measure up as a "post-racial" figure.

Fox News (http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/03/12/obamas-controversial-pastor-puts-church-in-hot-water/) has just posted a substantial story on Pastor Wright along with some video of Wright in action. The video (http://www.foxnews.com/index.html) is worth watching, even though, we hasten to point out, Obama isn't responsible for Wright's statements about the Clintons.

[boutons_]

America for "treating our citizens as less than human"

... does anybody even argue this point anymore? True for Amerindians and for blacks.

"brought on al Qaeda's attacks because of its own terrorism."

..... does anybody even argue this point anymore? Imperliastic, oil-targeted, open-ended occupation of "sacred" Saudia
Arabia soil, Kuweit, Iraq has pissied off ultra-nationalists in those countries just like it would piss off NRA/bubba/ultra-nationalists if USA were occupied, eg, to protect European and Asian loggers as they denude American forests.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

I really don't care what Obama's pastor says..... frankly, this type of rhetoric is very common in historically African American churches, maybe less explicit in some of them, but the church has always been a rallying point for political action in the African American community.

And in all honesty, condemning the political institutions within America as being racist doesn't bother me as much as the homophobic rhetoric echoing throughout the halls of most "right wing" churches.

[xrayzebra]

The most Rev is part of Obama's campaign. You know his
campaign of hope and change. Yeah, baby!

Just wonder why he would keep an old hate hating uncle around.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

The most Rev is part of Obama's campaign. You know his
campaign of hope and change. Yeah, baby!

Just wonder why he would keep an old hate hating uncle around.


Um...no he's not. Nice lie though.

[JoeChalupa]

I was wondering how long it would take for Yoni & xray to jump on the Hannity train with this. I don't know anyone who agrees with every single thing that comes out their Pastor's mouth. I don't.

[FromWayDowntown]

It's a sad state of affairs when the best we can do for political discourse is suggest that the rants of a guy's pastor should be imputed to the candidate. I suppose, however, that we're too far gone to ever hope that campaigns could be about real issues and policies and not whose pastor is the least eccentric or ideologically inflammatory.

[Yonivore]

It's a sad state of affairs when the best we can do for political discourse is suggest that the rants of a guy's pastor should be imputed to the candidate. I suppose, however, that we're too far gone to ever hope that campaigns could be about real issues and policies and not whose pastor is the least eccentric or ideologically inflammatory.
I think the matter of the depth of his relationship with that pastor is relevant. Many Presidents have sought spiritual guidance from their ministers and, if Obama continues that practice, is this the guy we want him consulting on matters of faith related to state?

Also, in the final analysis, it's not just this pastor; there's his foreign policy adivisor that had to quit a few days ago when she said some imprudent things about Hillary. That wacky lady is an anti-semite, pro-Palestinian nut job. Then there's his communist mentor, to whom he only referred to as "Frank" in his premature autobiography (so an incurious press would never make the connection).

This guy isn't just a liberal, he's a dangerous one. And, I think the more his personal relationships get exposed, the less likely he is to become president. My only hope is that realization comes too late, to the voting public, for the Democrats to recover.

[ChumpDumper]

Yoni stole this from powerlineblog.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives2/2008/03/020029.php


To criticize Obama for having friends with controversial, or even abhorrent, views would constitute guilt by association.But this is exactly what is being done.

Yet another nonissue.

http://images.salon.com/news/feature/2007/04/12/mccain/story.jpg

No American flag lapel pin?

at VMI?

He obviously hates America!

[Ignignokt]

Yoni stole this from powerlineblog.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives2/2008/03/020029.php

But this is exactly what is being done.

Yet another nonissue.

http://images.salon.com/news/feature/2007/04/12/mccain/story.jpg

No American flag lapel pin?

at VMI?

He obviously hates America!


I mean with a Name like John McCain. I know i wouldn't vote for him unless he legally changed it to John McAbel.

-whott

[Holt's Cat]

Hagee, Wright, what's the difference?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

believe this guy has said more than what you posted

i argued this point on another board i post on and here's what i posted.

"what i'm trying to get at is would a person who attends service regularly, tithe, and invites their friends to attend, if they don't whole heartedly agree with the pastor, the LEADER of the church, and ALL of it's teachings? would you tell your friends about a movie you didn't like? better question is would you sit through a movie you didn't like or seem.......wait for it....................OFFENSIVE TO WHAT YOU BELEIVE"

[ChumpDumper]

"what i'm trying to get at is would a person who attends service regularly, tithe, and invites their friends to attend, if they don't whole heartedly agree with the pastor, the LEADER of the church, and ALL of it's teachings?Churchgoers are required to wholeheartedly agree with EVERYTHING the church leader believes?

[Spurminator]

I won't speak for Obama or assume to know his reasons for attending Wright's church, but as a churchgoer, I'd find a new church if my pastor was saying things like this.

[JoeChalupa]

:sleep :sleep

[Viva Las Espuelas]

I won't speak for Obama or assume to know his reasons for attending Wright's church, but as a churchgoer, I'd find a new church if my pastor was saying things like this.if only more people can actually think, and the key word is think, like you.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Churchgoers are required to wholeheartedly agree with EVERYTHING the church leader believes?...you can lead a horse to water..........................

[xrayzebra]

Um...no he's not. Nice lie though.


No lie, my friend. No lie. But nice try on your part.

[xrayzebra]

Hagee, Wright, what's the difference?

Never heard them say "God Damn America". Have you?

[clambake]

You can't trust them pimp, candymen negro's. Trust me, i've spent 75 years of hating on them and i'm just fine, thank you. You stupid youngin's.

[clambake]

sorry ray, i take it back. my apologies.

[jochhejaam]

I am a hater of God's condemnation of sin.

There ya go, don't be shy.

[BradLohaus]

Barack Obama's pastor, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, says blacks should not sing "God Bless America" but "God damn America."

Wow that's pretty bad. A pastor said that?


Wright thinks God should damn America for "treating our citizens as less than human" and "for [acting] like she is God and she is supreme."

He could be talking about every government that has ever existed.

[jochhejaam]

I was wondering how long it would take for Yoni & xray to jump on the Hannity train with this. I don't know anyone who agrees with every single thing that comes out their Pastor's mouth. I don't.
I don't either, but then again, my pastor has never asked us to pray that God would damn America. If that happened he would no longer be the Pastor.

And I don't listen to Hannity.

[jochhejaam]

It's a sad state of affairs when the best we can do for political discourse is suggest that the rants of a guy's pastor should be imputed to the candidate. I suppose, however, that we're too far gone to ever hope that campaigns could be about real issues and policies and not whose pastor is the least eccentric or ideologically inflammatory.
I agree that there should be no assumption that Obama agrees with Wright's opinions, but since he's been his Pastor for 20 years, and given the vitriolic nature of his comments in condemning the very Country that Obama want's to lead, it is incumbent upon those in a position to question Obama about these matters, to do so.


If I apply for a job with the Ohio Civil Rights Commission, and it were a known fact that my daddy was a anti-semitic, card carrying member of the KKK, I can't imagine them not questioning me about whether or not I shared his views. That would be unfathomable, and a gross neglect of duty by the OCRC.

Hardly a non-issue.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

I won't speak for Obama or assume to know his reasons for attending Wright's church, but as a churchgoer, I'd find a new church if my pastor was saying things like this.

I bet many of the politicans on the right attend churches where gay bashing and other abhorrent things are commonplace from the pulpit, yet they get passes?

I've been to several southern churches where quoting rush Limbaugh is seen as perfectly fine, or at the least, acceptable.

[FromWayDowntown]

I agree that there should be no assumption that Obama agrees with Wright's opinions, but since he's been his Pastor for 20 years, and given the vitriolic nature of his comments in condemning the very Country that Obama want's to lead, it is incumbent upon those in a position to question Obama about these matters, to do so.


If I apply for a job with the Ohio Civil Rights Commission, and it were a known fact that my daddy was a anti-semitic, card carrying member of the KKK, I can't imagine them not questioning me about whether or not I shared his views. That would be unfathomable, and a gross neglect of duty by the OCRC.

Hardly a non-issue.

Perhaps, but there is a definite guilt by association implication to this particular story -- one that the plaigarized blog tries to deflect by categorically exalting the relationship between any person and his priest or pastor -- and I find that to be galling.

[clambake]

Perhaps, but there is a definite guilt by association implication to this particular story -- one that the plaigarized blog tries to deflect by categorically exalting the relationship between any person and his priest or pastor -- and I find that to be galling.
it's not intended for you. yoni's praying on the gullible. trying to swing any leftover hick votes.

[Spurminator]

I bet many of the politicans on the right attend churches where gay bashing and other abhorrent things are commonplace from the pulpit, yet they get passes?

I've been to several southern churches where quoting rush Limbaugh is seen as perfectly fine, or at the least, acceptable.


I didn't say anything about giving anyone passes, I'd leave any church where the minister uses the pulpit to preach political ideology instead of Scripture. If I had a pastor who used his pulpit to campaign against the civil rights of gays, I'd leave that church too. Especially if they're quoting Rush Limbaugh, though I can't say I'd ever expect to come upon that.

But that's me. I go to Church for worship, thanks, Communion and and Bible study. Not for a political rally. I'm not sure what Obama goes to church for, and I don't really care. If he doesn't agree with his minister that's fine. That just means, to me, we don't go to church for the same reasons. And I wouldn't hold that against him in the voting booth unless I felt he was being dishonest about his faith in order to court votes.

But as a Christian, I do have a problem with a Minister basically calling on God to curse this country. If you believe Scripture, you know what happens when God turns his back on a nation, and that's not something I'd particularly like to see. I'd prefer he ask God to forgive America and help us to be a better nation. But that's not as provocative.

The ministers at the churches I have gone to have always been very good at separating topics of Scripture from state affairs. Occasionally someone will lead a prayer and slip in a little mini-sermon about patriotism (or something to that effect), and that makes me very angry.

[Yonivore]

I bet many of the politicans on the right attend churches where gay bashing and other abhorrent things are commonplace from the pulpit, yet they get passes?
I guess you'd have to give a specific example...like was done with Obama. Just saying you bet something happens doesn't mean you're right.

I've never heard gay-bashing or any other abhorrent thing said from any of the pulpits of the churches I've attended and, if I did, I'd quit the church.


I've been to several southern churches where quoting rush Limbaugh is seen as perfectly fine, or at the least, acceptable.
For that matter, I've never heard Rush gay-bash or say abhorrent things. Care to give an example of a gay-bashing or other abhorrent Rush quote you heard from the pulpit?

[smeagol]

What that minister said is pretty disturbing. The fact Obama keeps going to that Church is not particularly comforting either.

[jcrod]

Here's another of his speaches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPjVp3PLnVs

Now way either Clinton or Obama wins the Presidency against McCain they way this shit is going.

[smeagol]

Now way either Clinton or Obama wins the Presidency against McCain they way this shit is going.

That would be pathetic in so many levels . . . :depressed

[Wild Cobra]

That would be pathetic in so many levels . . . :depressed
Agreed since McCain is just a better speaking version of president Bush. He's too damn liberal for me. Like I said before, no matter which one we get, they will screw America. Therefore, I prefer America be screwed under a democrat, to insure a future conservative win.

[Jelly]

I've been an active supporter of Obama for a while now, but I find this very disturbing. It appears that Obama's pastor and spiritual advisor is an anti-American, racist, hate monger. Those of you pretending this is a non-issue are fooling yourselves. This isn't good.

[Wild Cobra]

I've been an active supporter of Obama for a while now, but I find this very disturbing. It appears that Obama's pastor and spiritual advisor is an anti-American, racist, hate monger. Those of you pretending this is a non-issue are fooling yourselves. This isn't good.
You're right. It isn't good at all.

Like I say, none of them are presidential material.

[Nbadan]

Smearing Obama


He's a Muslim. He was sworn into office on the Koran. He doesn't say the Pledge of Allegiance. His pastor is an anti-Semite. He's a tool of Louis Farrakhan. He's anti-Israel. His advisers are anti-Israel. He's friends with terrorists. The terrorists want him to win. He's the Antichrist.

By now you've probably seen at least some of these e-mails and articles about Barack Obama bouncing around the Internet. They distort Obama's religious faith, question his support for Israel, warp the identity and positions of his campaign advisers and defame his friends and allies from Chicago. The purpose of the smear is to paint him as an Arab-loving, Israel-hating, terrorist-coddling, radical black nationalist. That picture couldn't be further from the truth, but you'd be surprised how many people have fallen for it. The American Jewish community, one of the most important pillars of the Democratic Party and US politics, has been specifically targeted . What started as a largely overlooked fringe attack has been thrust into the mainstream--used as GOP talking points, pushed by the Clinton campaign, echoed by the likes of Meet the Press host Tim Russert. Falsehoods are repeated as fact, and bits of evidence become "elaborate constructions of malicious fantasy," as the Jewish Week, America's largest Jewish newspaper, editorialized.
--
Even if the false claims about Obama originally emanated from the neoconservative right, the Clinton campaign has eagerly pushed them. Clinton operative Sidney Blumenthal has e-mailed damaging stories about Obama to reporters, including a recent article by Batchelor. Clinton fundraiser Annie Totah circulated a column by Ed Lasky before Super Tuesday, with the inscription "Please vote wisely in the Primaries." Clinton adviser Ann Lewis falsely referred to Zbigniew Brzezinski, a critic of AIPAC, as a chief adviser to Obama on a conference call with Jewish reporters. "I can tell you for a fact people from the Clinton campaign are calling reporters and asking them to pay attention to things involving Obama and Israel," says Shmuel Rosner, Washington correspondent for the Israeli daily Ha'aretz. The volume of e-mails about Obama in a given state tends to track the election calendar--hardly a coincidence.

Large American Jewish organizations, like AIPAC and the Orthodox Union, have repeatedly defended Obama. Yet they've had little sway over reactionary elements in both the United States and Israel--including Jewish hate groups--who are eager to keep the smear campaign alive. The website Jews Against Obama, for instance, is run by the Jewish Task Force, which funnels money to the radical settler movement in Israel. (Curiously, John McCain's alliance with Pastor John Hagee of Christians United for Israel, a leading proponent of "end times" theology, and his recent endorsement by former Secretary of State James Baker have received far less scrutiny from pro-Israel pundits. It was Baker, after all, who reportedly told George H.W. Bush, "Fuck the Jews. They didn't vote for us anyway.")

The Nation (http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080331/berman)

[Nbadan]

Don't let the wing-nut hypocrisy slap you in the face...

Are we going to attack them as well for being members of the same church Barack is associated with?

This section lists notable people known to have been raised in or current members of the United Church of Christ or its predecessor denominations.


* Daniel Akaka — U.S. Senator from Hawaii (Democrat)
* Max Baucus — U.S. Senator from Montana (Democrat)
* Julian Bond — Chair NAACP (2004–present)
* Walter Brueggemann — contemporary theologian, poet, and UCC minister, retired professor at Columbia Theological Seminary
* William Sloane Coffin — Late Presbyterian/UCC minister and activist; 'pastor, prophet, poet'; former Chaplain at Yale University and Senior Pastor of Riverside Church, New York City
* Common — Rapper, recording artist, member of Trinity UCC in Chicago
* Jon Corzine — Governor of New Jersey (Democrat)
* Howard Dean — Former Governor of Vermont (Democrat)
* Mark Fernald — Former New Hampshire State senator pg 10
* Donald Hall — United States US Poet Laureate <42>
* Mills Godwin — Former Governor of Virginia
* Bob Graham — Former U.S. Senator from Florida (Democrat)
* Judd Gregg — U.S. Senator from New Hampshire (Republican)
* Jim Jeffords — Former U.S. Senator from Vermont (Independent)
* Dean Koontz — American writer and author. Raised UCC, now is Catholic. <43>
* John Williamson Nevin — notable 19th-century theologian <44>
* Barack Obama — U.S. Senator, 2008 presidential candidate
* Robert Orr — Assistant Secretary General of the United Nations <45>
* H. Richard Niebuhr — notable 20th-century theologian
* Reinhold Niebuhr — notable 20th-century theologian
* Sally Pederson — former Lieutenant Governor of Iowa (Democrat)
* Leonard Pitts — Nationally syndicated Pulitzer prize–winning (2004) columnist
* Marilynne Robinson — Pulitzer prize-winning (2005) author of the novel Gilead
* Philip Schaff — notable 19th-century theologian <46>
* George Smathers — Democratic Senator from Florida <47>
* Max L. Stackhouse — public theologian and professor at Princeton Theological Seminary
* William "Bill" McKinney — President of Pacific School of Religion, since 1996
* Paul Tillich — notable 20th-century theologian
* Andrew Young — Civil rights leader, ordained UCC pastor, and former member of Congress, UN ambassador, and mayor of Atlanta, Georgia

<48>

* Jeri Kehn Thompson - wife of Law & Order star and former U.S. Senator and presidential candidate Fred Thompson

UCC people notable within the denomination

This section lists theologians and other UCC clergy and laypeople that are notable within the denomination but that may have little name recognition outside the denomination.<54>

Presidents (year order)

* James E. Wagner & Fred Hoskins — UCC co-presidents (1957–1961)<55>
* Ben M. Herbster — UCC president (1961–1969)
* Robert Moss, Jr. — UCC president (1969–1976) and author of the Moss Adaptation of the UCC statement of Faith.<56>
* Joseph H. Evans — UCC president (1976–1977)
* Avery Post — UCC President (1977–1989)
* Paul Sherry — UCC President (1989–1999)
* John H. Thomas — UCC president (1999–present)

Others (alphabetical order)

* Ron Buford — coordinator of The Stillspeaking Initiative and former advertising manager for United Church News.<57>
* Gabriel Fackre — Theologian; president, Confessing Christ; Abbot Professor of Christian Theology Emeritus, Andover Newton Theological School
* J. Bennett Guess — Editor of United Church News, the denominational newspaper
* Edith Guffey — Associate General Minister
* Louis Gunnemann — UCC polity theologian and former dean of United Theological Seminary (Twin Cities)
* Douglas Horton — Ecumenist, Minister and General Secretary of the General Council of Congregational Christian Churches, translator of Karl Barth into English, and early force in the formation of the UCC.<58>
* Rev. William Hulteen — 25-year veteran of the former national "Office for Church Life and Leadership" (OCLL) and spokesman for issues of "ordained and lay leadership, theological reflection and education, clergy placement, worship and spirituality, and congregational life".<59>
* M. Linda Jaramillo — Executive Minister for Justice and Witness Ministries (JWM)
* José Malayang — Executive Minister for Local Church Ministries (LCM)
* Rev. Otis Moss III — Pastor of Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago
* Elizabeth Nordbeck — Professor of Ecclesiastical History and 11-year dean at Andover Newton Theological School. co-editor of Prism, a UCC denominational journal.<60><61>
* Charles Shelby Rooks — influential UCC pastor and scholar who, as president of Chicago Theological Seminary from 1974 to 1984, was the first African American to lead a predominantly Euro-American theological school.<62>
* David Runnion-Bareford — Executive Director of Biblical Witness Fellowship since 1994; pastor, Congregational Church, Candia, New Hampshire
* Reuben Sheares, pastor and former executive director of the national Office for Church Life and Leadership for the UCC.<63>
* Nancy S. Taylor — frequent denominational commentator, former Massachusetts Conference minister, and presently pastor of the historic Old South Church in Boston<64><65>
* Susan Thistlethwaite — President and Professor of Theology, Chicago Theological Seminary<66>
* Rev. Bob Thompson, president of Faithful and Welcoming Churches;<67> pastor, Corinth Reformed Church, Hickory, North Carolina
* Frederick R. Trost — founding convenor of Confessing Christ; former Conference Minister, Wisconsin Conference<68>
* Cally Rogers-Witte — Executive Minister for Wider Church Ministries (WCM)
* Rev. Jeremiah Wright — Senior Pastor of the 10000-plus-member Trinity United Church of Christ, a predominantly African American Chicago congregation.
* Barbara Brown Zikmund — church historian (Hidden Histories) and President of Hartford Seminary; unsuccessful candidate for General Minister position in 1999.

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Church_of_Christ)

[Spurminator]

Are we going to attack them as well for being members of the same church Barack is associated with?

I believe this topic is about this specific reverend. Not the denomination.

I don't care where Common goes to church.

[Spawn]

That's nothing!!! You should hear me go off.

Nothing like an Angry Black Man speaking the truth that makes people tremble in their shoes. I love it!!!

[possessed]

That's nothing!!! You should hear me go off.

Nothing like an Angry Black Man speaking the truth that makes people tremble in their shoes. I love it!!!
*trembles*

:dramaquee

[Nbadan]

Scary...


wzhl-endvco


4qNi7tPanUA

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Here's another of his speaches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPjVp3PLnVs

Now way either Clinton or Obama wins the Presidency against McCain they way this shit is going.the chicken or the egg concept can kinda be applied here. the 60's are going to happen alllllllllllllllllll over again. i just feel it. changes are a comin'
iPjVp3PLnVs0vYML_F1Nb0

[Insomniac]

Racism never sleeps.

[Yonivore]

That's nothing!!! You should hear me go off.

Nothing like an Angry Black Man speaking the truth that makes people tremble in their shoes. I love it!!!
I think you're mistaking incredulity for fear.

[Yonivore]

Don't let the wing-nut hypocrisy slap you in the face...

Are we going to attack them as well for being members of the same church Barack is associated with?

This section lists notable people known to have been raised in or current members of the United Church of Christ or its predecessor denominations.



Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Church_of_Christ)
This guy isn't your average Church of Christ preacher. Admittedly, the Church of Christ has some whacked out views, as a denomination, but I don't think they -- on the whole -- can hold a candle to this guy's position.

[Spurminator]

United Church of Christ <> Church of Christ

[Yonivore]

United Church of Christ <> Church of Christ
Are you implying all UCC pastors hold this guy's views?

[JoeChalupa]

I think this is going to hurt Obama and just may turn enough voters off and Hillary will get the nomination.
I admire Senator John McCain for not wanting to go down this road though. He himself said that Barack cannot be held responsible for his Pastor's words and that Barack has renounced the hatred statements.
Both Obama and McCain are above these kinds of attacks and I commend them both.

[Yonivore]

I think this is going to hurt Obama and just may turn enough voters off and Hillary will get the nomination.
I admire Senator John McCain for not wanting to go down this road though. He himself said that Barack cannot be held responsible for his Pastor's words and that Barack has renounced the hatred statements.
Both Obama and McCain are above these kinds of attacks and I commend them both.
That all adds up to McCain in '08.

[Spurminator]

Are you implying all UCC pastors hold this guy's views?

Huh? No, I'm clarifying that the Church of Christ is not the same denomination as the United Church of Christ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Church_of_Christ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churches_of_Christ

Of course, neither has a central governing authority, so a lot of times you never know what you're going to get with either.

[Extra Stout]

This guy isn't your average Church of Christ preacher. Admittedly, the Church of Christ has some whacked out views, as a denomination, but I don't think they -- on the whole -- can hold a candle to this guy's position.
The Church of Christ is a conservative evangelical denomination from the Campbellite/Restorationist movement of the 19th century.

The United Church of Christ is a liberal apostate denomination, which back when it was Christian was from the Congregational/Reformed tradition.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

That all adds up to McCain in '08.YES WE CAN!!!

[JoeChalupa]

That all adds up to McCain in '08.

You very well may be correct and I can live with that. I've always like McCain. He has no problems working with Democrats and Barack has no problems working with Republicans.

McCain/Obama - That's the ticket.

But I also don't blame McCain for the BS that Hagee spews even if McCain does accept Hagee's endorsement.

[Extra Stout]

That's nothing!!! You should hear me go off.

Nothing like an Angry Black Man speaking the truth that makes people tremble in their shoes. I love it!!!
That's not "trembling." That's liberals scratching their heads and asking themselves, "Do I really want to vote for this Obama guy?" Hillary is working to play latent racial divisions on the left to her advantage, and it's starting to pay dividends.

I do wonder which flavor of black nationalist you are. Please select which vision best fits your views. Also feel free to elaborate.

A) Blacks in America must form a cohesive internal community that values education, economic self-determination, and mutual assistance. This will result in blacks enjoying the same degree of success as other high-achieving ethnic minorities and will compel wider America to deal with blacks on equitable terms and arrive at peaceful co-existence.

B) All of A, but in addition, black self-determination and peaceful co-existence can only be fully achieved through a separate black-ruled nation parceled out from American territory.

C) Most of A, but rather than having has a goal equitable and peaceful co-existence with other races, blacks must achieve complete rule over America and/or subjugation of nonblacks the way blacks were once subjugated.

[JoeChalupa]

I will still vote for Obama. Those kinds of dividends will cost America a great President. It would be President Barack Obama and his pastor will not be in his cabinet.
Get real people. Who knew so much racial tension still existed in our Country?
I for one have always known it has been there.

[Yonivore]

I will still vote for Obama. Those kinds of dividends will cost America a great President. It would be President Barack Obama and his pastor will not be in his cabinet.
How do you know? The guy does have an official position in the campaign.



Get real people. Who knew so much racial tension still existed in our Country?
I think the tension is in the Democrat Party and people like Obama's pastor, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, et. al. are dead set on making sure the tension remains.


I for one have always known it has been there.
That's because you're a card-carrying member of the race-baiters party. Many of us are only ever reminded of racial tensions when a Democrat opens his or her mouth and starts claiming it exists.

[JoeChalupa]

How do you know? The guy does have an official position in the campaign.


I think the tension is in the Democrat Party and people like Obama's pastor, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, et. al. are dead set on making sure the tension remains.


That's because you're a card-carrying member of the race-baiters party. Many of us are only ever reminded of racial tensions when a Democrat opens his or her mouth and starts claiming it exists.

If you don't think republicans will play the race card if Obama wins the nomination you are fooling yourself. And if you believe racism doesn't exist in the conservative republican party you are truly fooling yourself.
I know you are not that ignorant and a lot smarter than that. I know it.

[clambake]

i remembered it from your gas station story. does that mean you're a democrat?

[Yonivore]

i remembered it from your gas station story. does that mean you're a democrat?
And who provided the racial tension in that story? It wasn't me. I pulled into that Inglewood gas station with nothing on my mind but getting gasoline.

[JoeChalupa]

Jumping jack flash..it's a gas, gas, gas.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

And who provided the racial tension in that story? It wasn't me. I pulled into that Inglewood gas station with nothing on my mind but getting gasoline.this came to mind when i read your post
nYzsskE5ObA

[Extra Stout]

If you don't think republicans will play the race card if Obama wins the nomination you are fooling yourself. And if you believe racism doesn't exist in the conservative republican party you are truly fooling yourself.
I know you are not that ignorant and a lot smarter than that. I know it.
Many of the slurs against Obama are originating on the far right in the first place. Insight Magazine invented the "Obama is a secret Muslim Manchurain candidate" meme.

The McCain campaign itself probably will be hesitant to play the race card. If he loses two moderate votes, because they get turned off, for every conservative he gets to turn out, which is how I would see that playing out, clearly he shoots himself in the foot.

So to the degree the race card gets played, it will be by the same viral means it has been so far. The strategy for the left will be to research and dredge those up, and try to pin them to McCain somehow.

[Yonivore]

this came to mind when i read your post
nYzsskE5ObA
Can't get YouTube here, can I assume that's a video of Reginal Denny just trying to do his job while a bunch of black guys described racial tension to him?

If not, that's what you should have posted.

[Extra Stout]

I had a discussion amongst acquaintances who were wondering if maybe every black church has a message similar to what Rev. Wright preaches.

My experience is emphatically "no," unless the ones I've visited all keep a separate repository of "caution - white people are here" sermons to pull out at a moment's notice.

The theme of social justice frequently recurs, the theme of waking up an apathetic America to the needs of the poor occurs, sometimes they talk about the need for greater unity with white Christians, but mostly it's just your usual sermon about Jesus, salvation, grace, the Bible, living the Christian life, etc., delivered with the emotion, and the catchy inflection and phrasing you expect from a black pastor.

Part of that may be because the black churches I've been to are Baptist, AME, Pentecostal, etc., in Texas and elsewhere in the South, and actually believe the historic doctrines of Christianity, rather than making it up as they go along like the UCC apostates.

[JoeChalupa]

^ I concur. I've attended Church Services with my wife and I've never heard anything anti-American ever.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Can't get YouTube here, can I assume that's a video of Reginal Denny just trying to do his job while a bunch of black guys described racial tension to him?

If not, that's what you should have posted.check it at home. it's better than that one

[JoeChalupa]

You can always catch them on FoxNews.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

look, obviously this doesn't represent Obama's opinion, all the man has ever talked about in his public life is uniting the country, not divisive politics..... so, what is the point of this thread?

Is anyone but that dumb racist Xray actually going to say that Obama hates white people? Wants god to damn america?

[JoeChalupa]

The reason this is an issue is because Barack has been a member of that Church for 20 years, has stated that his Pastor has been a mentor to him, has given him props in his book. But they ignore the fact that he's denounced statements made by his Pastor but he is being swiftboated and as much as I hate it..it appears to be working.

[Yonivore]

Barack Obama provides an account of his meeting Rev. Wright in Dreams from my Father, as well as this brief bio on p. 282:


He had grown up in Philadelphia, the son of a Baptist minister. he had resisted his father's vocation at first, joining the Marines out of college, dabbling with liquor, Islam, and black nationalism in the sixties. But the call of his faith had apparently remained, a steady tug on his heart, and eventually he'd entered Howard, then the University of Chicago, where he spent six years studying for a Ph.D. in the history of religion. He learned Hebrew and Greek, read the literature of Tillich and Niebuhr and the black liberation theologians. The anger and humor of the streets, the book learning and occasional twenty-five cent word, all this he had brought with him to Trinity almost two decades ago. And although it was only later that I would learn much of his biography, it became clear in that very first meeting that, despite the reverand's frequent disclaimers, it was this capacious talent of his --this ability to hold together, if not reconcile, the conflicting strains of black experience-- upon which Trinity's success had ultimately been built.
Obama writes that the Reverand Wright warned him that association with him "isn't necessarily a feather in your cap," because "'[s]ome of my fellow clergy don't appreciatewhat we're about. they feel like we're too radical. Others, we ain't radical enough. Too emotional. Not emotional enough. Our emphasis on African history, on scholarship--"


"Some people say," I interrupted, "that the church is too upwardly mobile."

The reverand's smile faded. "That's a lot of bull," he said sharply. "People who talk that mess reflect their own confusion. They've bought into the whole business of class that keeps us from working together. half of 'em think that the former gang-banger or the former Muslim got no business in a Christian church. Other half think that any black man with an education or a job, or any church that respects scholarship, is somehow suspect."

"We don't buy into these false divisions here. It's not about income, Barack. Cops don't check my bank account when they pull me over and make me spread-eagle against the car. These miseducated brothers, like the sociologists at the University of Chicago, talking about 'the declining significance of race.' Now, what country is he living in?"
A pastor's influence on a member of a congregation can be large or small, but Wright's impact on Obama has clearly been significant, and the pastor's ideas ought to be the subject of an extended public conversation with the candidate.

When a candidate is discovered to belong to a club or organization that discriminates against women or minorities, he has to leave the club or the campaign. He doesn't get to say that he disagrees with this policy or that rule and stay in the membership. Senator Obama's church leadership has expressed very controversial positions, and he stayed a member through all those sermons on politics. Isn't that like remaining a member of a whites-only golf club?

I have no idea what Pastor Wright's theology is, but his politics are very radical, and they are legitimately an issue for the Obama campaign.

Ultimately what the issue comes down to is the country asking, "Who is Barack Obama?" and finding answers anywhere it can. Because Obama has no real public record of his own, the country has to sift through tea leaves. The associations he chooses become relevant.

And a pattern is developing regarding those associations that's disturbing. When Michelle Obama made her obnoxious comments a few days ago, I wasn’t enormously enamored with making a big fuss about them. I don't even recall posting on them.

But you combine Reverend Wright's rhetoric with Michelle Obama's and a pattern begins to emerge: Obama's inner circle seems composed of an inordinate amount of people who don’t much care for this country. Some Obama supporters may ask in response to that fact, So what? Does Obama necessarily share the views of his pastor and his wife? And what if he does?

If that's going to be Obama's supporters best defense, it's not a very good one. The views of Obama’s close relations are going to disquiet a lot of people. A lot of voting people.

Wright's sermons are full of political positions that, if held by Senator Obama, will have an impact on the policies of a President Obama.

[Yonivore]

I think Roger Simon defines the problem for Obama rather succinctly:


I'm not much for guilt-by-association, but when I saw the Reverend Jeremiah Wright on television last night (clip below), I realized that Barack Obama has to do a lot more than merely pay lip service to disassociating himself from "some of the comments" of his minister as if Wright were some errant family member. As we all know, we don't choose our family, but Obama chose this racist demagogue as his pastor for decades. It's not funny. Barack is running for President of the United States. As a former civil rights worker, I find it pretty appalling. Was this what we were fighting for? Forget the primaries, in the general election this video is going to be all over the airwaves and the internet. It could do for Obama what Willie Horton did for Dukakis.... But unlike the Willie Horton ad, Obama will deserve this. Horton was a mistake by Dukakis that any of us could have made. Jeremiah Wright was Obama's personal choice for years. And let's not even get into Barack giving Farrakhan the honorific of "Minister" in the recent debate...

[JoeChalupa]

By the way his book is an awesome read. I highly recommend it.

[JoeChalupa]

Barack's critics are just looking for anything, anything at all to bring him down and that is what politics is sadly all about. I just hope he stays above it all.

[Yonivore]

Barack's critics are just looking for anything, anything at all to bring him down and that is what politics is sadly all about. I just hope he stays above it all.
So, you don't believe those with whom we choose to associate have any bearing on how we should be viewed?

[Extra Stout]

I give JoeChalupa a lot of credit on this. He's being consistent, while so many other lefties are trying simultaneously to downplay the Obama-Wright relationship and claim that McCain's having been at campaign rallies with John Hagee and Rod Parsley is a huge deal.

[Extra Stout]

P.S. To any reader: if you think that Rev. Wright is a horrible, horrible person who twists Christianity into hateful nonsense, while you enjoy watching Hagee and Parsley on TBN because of their great sermons, you're 1) a racist, 2) a crank, and 3) have zero sense of irony.

[JoeChalupa]

So, you don't believe those with whom we choose to associate have any bearing on how we should be viewed?
l
Not to that extreme I don't. I don't blame John McCain for Hagee's idiotic remarks or that he had close ties with Bush or the pundits who choose to use
"Hussein" when referring to Barack Obama. I judge McCain for the person HE is...a man of honor and integrity who has served his Country proudly. I don't give a rat's ass what somebody else says.
And if you've researched and listended to Obama you'd realize that his views are not the same as his Pastor's on all issues.

[Yonivore]

l
Not to that extreme I don't. I don't blame John McCain for Hagee's idiotic remarks or that he had close ties with Bush or the pundits who choose to use
"Hussein" when referring to Barack Obama. I judge McCain for the person HE is...a man of honor and integrity who has served his Country proudly. I don't give a rat's ass what somebody else says.
And if you've researched and listended to Obama you'd realize that his views are not the same as his Pastor's on all issues.
Okay, let's see...you're equating John McCain accepting the endorsement of an admittedly radical right-wing preacher with Obama being a two-decades member of a church led by a bigoted America-hater? The man baptized his children, gave him the title of his book, "Audicity of Hope" for one of his extremist sermons, is considered a mentor by Obama, and sits in some official capacity on his campaign.

Sorry, I don't see the comparison.

[JoeChalupa]

Okay, let's see...you're equating John McCain accepting the endorsement of an admittedly radical right-wing preacher with Obama being a two-decades member of a church led by a bigoted America-hater? The man baptized his children, gave him the title of his book, "Audicity of Hope" for one of his extremist sermons, is considered a mentor by Obama, and sits in some official capacity on his campaign.

Sorry, I don't see the comparison.

That doesn't surprise me at all. Again, you see what YOU want to see. My point is that I don't see the quilty by association as you do. If the priest of my church gets busted as a pedophile does that condemn me too?
You must have been Hannitized.

[Extra Stout]

What Obama needs to do now is set up a meeting with Rick Warren, following which he weeps about how much Warren has changed his life. Then he should give a speech about "Purpose-Driven Change." Perhaps some photos of Obama's children sitting at rapt attention while Warren preaches would help.

Bonus points to the first person who figures out what I'm talking about.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

my two cents to this is that Hagee is basing his words from The Bible. (this may unleash a whole new monster, but oh well) Hagee is preaching about actions against God. i don't hear "black" or "white" this or that. the other guy is saying "white" "black". he also said the 9/11 attacks were brought on by us occupying other nations.

[Extra Stout]

my two cents to this is that Hagee is basing his words from The Bible.
John "Jesus is not really the Messiah" Hagee? John "Rosh and Meshech mean Russia and Moscow" Hagee? Biblical?

BAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

[JoeChalupa]

my two cents to this is that Hagee is basing his words from The Bible. (this may unleash a whole new monster, but oh well) Hagee is preaching about actions against God. i don't hear "black" or "white" this or that. the other guy is saying "white" "black". he also said the 9/11 attacks were brought on by us occupying other nations.

I believe Pat Robertson said something along those lines as well. I've heard some of the stuff Hagee preaches and I don't believe he is basing his words on the Bible that I know of. But then again I'm Catholic.

[Extra Stout]

Nuke Iran!

[Extra Stout]

http://doctrineunites.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/john_hagee_cruise_sm.jpg

[Extra Stout]

I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Nobody comes to the Father except through Me. But when I say nobody, I'm only talking about the Gentiles. You Jews just keep doing what you've been doing and you'll be saved. I'm not really sure why I'm even preaching to you.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

John "Jesus is not really the Messiah" Hagee?yeah. i was a little freaked out when i heard about this. he did defend his misuse of words. the title of that book was "in defense of israel". i've heard/seen hagee say numerous times the Jesus was The Messiah before and after this came out.


Jesus "Rosh and Meshech mean Russia and Moscow" Hagee?i've read a little about this. i see there's conflicting reports that it doesn't tie to russia, but russia is aiding iran with their nuclear project. i do remember hearing that ahmadinejad wants to "wipe israel off the face of the earth". that's awfully coincidential, don't you think?


Biblical?
i'd say so. yes

Israel is the centerpoint of The Bible. That's Hagee's biggest kick. I'm a big critic of these televangelists. I can't stand them and I believe they're why there are so many non-believers. Mainly because I used to play in the band for one. WV Grant. He was in prison at the time, but there were a lot of things I SAW that pissed the hell out of me and it definitely shook my faith in God. I look at it now and it actually shook my faith in the church not God. That was man's doing and i've said in the past the nothing good comes from man. Sorry to go off on that tangent, but I don't see Hagee as one of those televangelist loons. I don't tithe to his ministry or anything like that. I agree he may, at times, get a little too political in his teachings, but it ties in with The Bible. We all sometimes don't like what we hear. Hopefully that made sense.

[Extra Stout]

"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ, but only of the Gentiles.

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

Peter replied, "You don't need to do anything. Since you're Jews, you're already saved. Enjoy your pilgrimage!"

[FromWayDowntown]

I listened to a John Hagee sermon on the radio one evening driving from San Antonio to Corpus a few years ago when I had nothing to listen to but AM radio. I was particularly taken by his steadfast assertions that the Bible was not subject to interpretation which was immediately followed by his interpretation of the Bible.

[Extra Stout]

i've read a little about this. i see there's conflicting reports that it doesn't tie to russia, but russia is aiding iran with their nuclear project. i do remember hearing that ahmadinejad wants to "wipe israel off the face of the earth". that's awfully coincidential, don't you think?
No, I don't. There have been charlatans twisting the words of Scripture to fit current events, in order to convince people that Jesus is coming back next week, for centuries. There are always gullible, uninformed people who fall for it.

Etymologically, the idea that Rosh is Russia and Meshech is Moscow is ridiculous. I doubt Hagee even believes it. But hey, it sells books! And that's the point.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

oh. one more thing that i left out. tying into the "Israel is the centerpoint of The Bible" comment i made. I meant to bring up the 6 day war. That's a testimony in itself. I know Israel did some preemptive attacks, but 8 countries to 1. come on now. and in most areas Israel was outnumbered 3 to 1.

[Extra Stout]

yeah. i was a little freaked out when i heard about this. he did defend his misuse of words. the title of that book was "in defense of israel". i've heard/seen hagee say numerous times the Jesus was The Messiah before and after this came out.
Hagee teaches that God has a separate salvation plan for the Jews that does not involve faith in Jesus Christ. This is a heresy called hyperdispensationalism. As I've been satirically pointing out, it is necessary to ignore dozens, if not hundreds of Scripture references to make such a claim.

[Extra Stout]

oh. one more thing that i left out. tying into the "Israel is the centerpoint of The Bible" comment i made. I meant to bring up the 6 day war. That's a testimony in itself. I know Israel did some preemptive attacks, but 8 countries to 1. come on now. and in most areas Israel was outnumbered 3 to 1.
Likewise, the story of the 300 Spartans proves that Greek gods are real.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Hagee teaches that God has a separate salvation plan for the Jews that does not involve faith in Jesus Christ. This is a heresy called hyperdispensationalism. As I've been satirically pointing out, it is necessary to ignore dozens, if not hundreds of Scripture references to make such a claim.i agree with you there. whole heartedly. i've wondered about that. faith isn't always a clear path

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Likewise, the story of the 300 Spartans proves that Greek gods are real.you can be smart and compare a movie to what actually happened. and i did say "areas" not they were "outmanned" 3 to 1. it's all out there for you to look up those claims. go with Stout instead of Extra Stout before you go into a debate.

[Extra Stout]

P.S. About Israel, you may have noticed how in 20 years, Israelis transformed Palestine from a seri-arid backwater with some almond trees into a prosperous industrialized nation and regional power. In the meantime, the Arabs still haven't discovered toilet paper. That may have something to do with why they can't beat Israel at wars.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

P.S. About Israel, you may have noticed how in 20 years, Israelis transformed Palestine from a seri-arid backwater with some almond trees into a prosperous industrialized nation and regional power. In the meantime, the Arabs still haven't discovered toilet paper. That may have something to do with why they can't beat Israel at wars.hmm. have you seen the quality of living of al qaeda? we got two big holes and a very popular mayor over here that debunks your train of thought.

[Extra Stout]

P.S. With regard to Israel being the center of the Bible, go re-read Romans 9-11 and find out who the children of Abraham are.

[Extra Stout]

hmm. have you seen the quality of living of al qaeda? we got two big holes and a very popular mayor over here that debunks your train of thought.
Yes, I remember how back in 2001 Muslims conquered the United States. Don't forget, the jizya is due April 15!

[Viva Las Espuelas]

P.S. With regard to Israel being the center of the Bible, go re-read Romans 9-11 and find out who the children of Abraham are.i'll have to check it out later. any particular passage?

[Extra Stout]

You would figure the Palestinians would have given up trying to launch rockets into Israel by now, since God keeps swatting them all away.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Yes, I remember how back in 2001 Muslims conquered the United States. that day they sure as hell did. i think our casualties outweighed theirs about 3000 to none, so i say that was a pretty damn good defeat.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

You would figure the Palestinians would have given up trying to launch rockets into Israel by now, since God keeps swatting them all away.and they wonder why they have no true home.

[jcrod]

That doesn't surprise me at all. Again, you see what YOU want to see. My point is that I don't see the quilty by association as you do. If the priest of my church gets busted as a pedophile does that condemn me too? You must have been Hannitized.


That is not even close to being a comparison.

[Extra Stout]

i'll have to check it out later. any particular passage?
The whole thing.

My paraphrase/synopsis:

Romans 9

To you Jewish Christians who are wondering how it could be that most of the Jews rejected Jesus Christ, don't think God was unfaithful to his covenant. Keep in mind that the children of Abraham are those who share his faith in God, not his bloodline. God chose Jacob because he felt like it, not because Jacob was better than Esau. God chose whoever he felt like to work out his salvation plan. He even used the hardness of Pharaoh's heart! So God doesn't owe the Jews salvation simply because they were part of his salvation plan for mankind. The Old Testament already makes clear that Gentiles will be saved, and that only a fraction of the Jews will be. The Gentile Christians have pursued righteousness through faith, while the Jews tried to be righteous by following the law, and therefore failed.

Romans 10

Look, I really want the Jews to be saved. They are good pious people. But our teaching is clear: salvation is through faith, and it doesn't matter whether you're Jewish or not. You come to faith by hearing the Gospel and accepting it, and certainly the Jews have heard the Gospel. And they have understood it. But they rejected it, and so God is choosing Gentiles to be part of his chosen people instead. This is all in the Old Testament. Look it up.

Romans 11

God has not rejected his people. Just as in the days of Elijah, there was a faithful remnant, so there is now. The rest have fallen away because they have trusted in works rather than grace. But this is not the end for the Jews. Since their failure means that Gentiles now get saved, think how great it will be when Jews become Christians! Think of it like an olive tree in an orchard. The olive tree is Israel. The apostate Jews are like branches that get broken off. The Gentile Christians are like wild shoots that get grafted in. When a Jewish person becomes a Christian, that's like the natural shoot being grafted back into the tree. So for now, most Jews don't accept Christ, but someday that will change. In the meantime, be kind to Jews, even though they reject Christ, because all the faithful forefathers were Jews. Also, you once were disobedient to God, and he showed you mercy, so show mercy to them even though they are being disobedient. Isn't God awesome? Amen.

[Extra Stout]

that day they sure as hell did. i think our casualties outweighed theirs about 3000 to none, so i say that was a pretty damn good defeat.
I guess we can take the fact that zero Israelis have been killed in terrorist attacks in the past 60 years as proof of prophecy. Give God praise and glory!

[Wild Cobra]

Reference:

Romans 9-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%209-11;&version=9;)

I didn't read the whole thing, but I believe this is what the false profit that Obama likes is talking about. Not any one particular passage, but what was said to the Roman's.

[T Park]

Just wondering how much press it would get if John McCain went to a church whos pastor said "Goddamn our country for letting a black man be a candidate for president"

He follows the guy for 20 years, and were supposed to believe this pastor just came up with this all of a sudden?

Makes Mrs. Obama's comments seem all the more like how she wanted em to be.

[Extra Stout]

that day they sure as hell did. i think our casualties outweighed theirs about 3000 to none, so i say that was a pretty damn good defeat.
Yeah, it's really sucked here being in the Islamic Republic of America. Too bad the Muslims won.

[Extra Stout]

Just wondering how much press it would get if John McCain went to a church whos pastor said "Goddamn our country for letting a black man be a candidate for president"

He follows the guy for 20 years, and were supposed to believe this pastor just came up with this all of a sudden?

Makes Mrs. Obama's comments seem all the more like how she wanted em to be.
A lot.

My hunch is that Obama, rather than being a black nationalist Manchurian candidate, is a cynical Chicago politician who realized that being half-white and raised by whites would make it difficult to get blacks in Chicago to vote for him back when he starting his political career. So, he cozied up to a very black black church that was very black with a black pastor notable for his extreme blackness. Obama then forged a "close" "relationship" to the black pastor notable for his blackly unapologetic black blackness. The last couple years, while black pundits were debating whether Obama was sufficiently black, Obama published a book with a title drawn from one of his black pastor's very black sermons. Clearly, being so close to a man like Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Obama must indeed be very black.

In the meantime, Obama has been campaigning for President. He needs white people to vote for him. So, on account of his being half-white and raised by whites, he frames himself as the "post-racial" candidate. He is a breath of fresh air, moving past the divisive politics of the past. So now, militant black preacher Jeremiah Wright is just a crazy old uncle who Obama doesn't agree with much, and who is about to retire anyway.

[Yonivore]

That doesn't surprise me at all. Again, you see what YOU want to see. My point is that I don't see the quilty by association as you do. If the priest of my church gets busted as a pedophile does that condemn me too?
You must have been Hannitized.
If you knew he was a pedophile and did nothing? Absolutely it condemns you.

[Jelly]

Off topic a little, does anyone know if John Hagee has a son by the same name who went to John Marshall in the 80s? I remember hearing that name a lot back then and thinking the guy was a football player or something.

[SA210]

Don't blame me, I voted for Edwards.

[Wild Cobra]

CYA:

Obama denounces pastor's 9/11 comments (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080314/ap_on_el_pr/obama_pastor;_ylt=AsYmSo86XzDC3mVjiZX1GnwGw_IE)

[jcrod]

CYA:

Obama denounces pastor's 9/11 comments (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080314/ap_on_el_pr/obama_pastor;_ylt=AsYmSo86XzDC3mVjiZX1GnwGw_IE)


Did you expect him not to do this? It was a given.


I don't believe him though when he says he's never heard him says these things before. BS.

[Wild Cobra]

Did you expect him not to do this? It was a given.


I don't believe him though when he says he's never heard him says these things before. BS.
I don't believe him either. What is surprising is it took so long to draft the reply.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

A lot.

My hunch is that Obama, rather than being a black nationalist Manchurian candidate, is a cynical Chicago politician who realized that being half-white and raised by whites would make it difficult to get blacks in Chicago to vote for him back when he starting his political career. So, he cozied up to a very black black church that was very black with a black pastor notable for his extreme blackness. Obama then forged a "close" "relationship" to the black pastor notable for his blackly unapologetic black blackness. The last couple years, while black pundits were debating whether Obama was sufficiently black, Obama published a book with a title drawn from one of his black pastor's very black sermons. Clearly, being so close to a man like Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Obama must indeed be very black.

In the meantime, Obama has been campaigning for President. He needs white people to vote for him. So, on account of his being half-white and raised by whites, he frames himself as the "post-racial" candidate. He is a breath of fresh air, moving past the divisive politics of the past. So now, militant black preacher Jeremiah Wright is just a crazy old uncle who Obama doesn't agree with much, and who is about to retire anyway.


It must really suck to be that jaded...... maybe you could use a dose of hope yourself

[Wild Cobra]

It must really suck to be that jaded...... maybe you could use a dose of hope yourself
If you think about it, ES' response makes perfect sense. He doesn't have the slave heritage that most black Americans do. He was raised primarily in white households, and never experienced what it is to be raised black.

Now the black experience is not only skin color. They like to make us believe that, but it is more rooted in the way they are raised. If he didn't embrace the black community some how, he would be dubbed as an "Uncle Tom."

[Kent_in_Atlanta]

There's only one question I have to ask...

If this were John McCain's pastor, and that pastor were spewing white supremacist rhetoric (instead of anti-semitic, anti-white, anti-American rhetoric)... would John McCain be able to survive having called such a man his "mentor", having been in his church for years, having been married by the man, etc.?

The answer should be obvious.

[Extra Stout]

It must really suck to be that jaded...... maybe you could use a dose of hope yourself
As Obama was throwing his pastor under the bus, I couldn't help but notice that his mechanics are impeccable. He didn't even graze the bumper.

[Holt's Cat]

Too bad the clearance under that bus isn't high enough for Hagee.

[Extra Stout]

Too bad the clearance under that bus isn't high enough for Hagee.
I'm not sure Hagee would fit under any of the I-10/410 ramps.

[Holt's Cat]

Would that necessarily be a bad thing?

[JoeChalupa]

If you knew he was a pedophile and did nothing? Absolutely it condemns you.

Like what? Leave the CAtholic Church? My faith is stronger than that.

[JoeChalupa]

That is not even close to being a comparison.

Sure it is. Guilty by association is what yoni says.

[JoeChalupa]

Don't blame me, I voted for Edwards.

Who is blaming you?

[JoeChalupa]

Just wondering how much press it would get if John McCain went to a church whos pastor said "Goddamn our country for letting a black man be a candidate for president"

He follows the guy for 20 years, and were supposed to believe this pastor just came up with this all of a sudden?

Makes Mrs. Obama's comments seem all the more like how she wanted em to be.

Damn you are such a hater. Now I know why as much as I try, even at the GTG's to like you as a person you make it very hard. But I won't stop trying.

John McCain is above all this. I commend his statement about this issue.

[JoeChalupa]

I must admit though that this issue will in all probability will turn what small percentage of the white vote Barack had against him and Hillary will smash him in PA.

The enthusiasm and spark of his campaign has been doused and it may become almost impossible for him to recover from it. The damage has been done and it is just more ammunition for those against him to use against him. Joe Pags on WOAI is doing the Hannitizing now but he's never like Obama from the start.
I'm still behind Obama because I do not believe, at all, that he has the same views as his Pastor. Just as I don't believe John McCain has the same views as Hagee.
Even though I made my previous remarks about TPark I do believe he is good person but sometimes his words turn others off. Hell, I know some of my posts urk people but I'm not out to win a spot on anyone's "Top 10 Posters" list and on that I think TPark and I are on the same page.

[Mr. Peabody]

This is what our politic discourse is nowadays? Issues no longer matter, it's all just "gothcha" politics. You say you admire a man for one facet of his life and now you necessarily assume responsibility for every other facet of his life as well. :rolleyes


As I have written about in my books, I first joined Trinity United Church of Christ nearly twenty years ago. I knew Rev. Wright as someone who served this nation with honor as a United States Marine, as a respected biblical scholar, and as someone who taught or lectured at seminaries across the country, from Union Theological Seminary to the University of Chicago. He also led a diverse congregation that was and still is a pillar of the South Side and the entire city of Chicago. It's a congregation that does not merely preach social justice but acts it out each day, through ministries ranging from housing the homeless to reaching out to those with HIV/AIDS.

Most importantly, Rev. Wright preached the gospel of Jesus, a gospel on which I base my life. In other words, he has never been my political advisor; he's been my pastor. And the sermons I heard him preach always related to our obligation to love God and one another, to work on behalf of the poor, and to seek justice at every turn.

Hell, I got married at St. James Church on Theo St. even though I strongly disagree with the Catholic church on their stances on certain political (some would argue moral) issues. Why did I get married there? It's the community church. My family's been attending that church since before I was born. My wife and her family belong to church. The priest at the church, Father Emmet, has presided over every funeral, wedding, baptism, etc. in my family. Heck, the guy will probably baptize my son. We attend the church from time to time, more for the community aspect than anything (I, myself, am an atheist). I sit and listen to the sermons. Many are uplifting and at times, I enjoy the message. But again, I disagree with just about everything the church stands for politically and would hate to have the church's stances somehow attributed to me because of my attendance at St. James.

I was listening to Joe Pags last night and I don't know if he's just trying to generate interest in his show by saying outlandish things or if he really is that stupid. Last night, he said something to the effect of "Barack talks about hope and change, but the more I learn about him, the more obvious it is that the hope and change he wants is to get rid of the white man." :wtf

So now Barack's a Black separatist? :dramaquee

[Yonivore]

Sure it is. Guilty by association is what yoni says.
No, it's guilt by voluntary, continued, long-term, close, and fraternal association over a period of 20 years. The man baptized his children and Obama continues to expose his children to this idiot's bigoted, hate-filled sermons, week after week after week.

And, as for your pedophile analogy; you tried to change the subject to that of the church and not the priest. Another attempt by bumbling Joe to throw and orange into an apple conversation. No one said you should turn your back on the Catholic faith because of the actions of one priest. But, if you knew the priest at your church was a pedophile and did nothing yet, even worse, continued to be a parishoner at that church for 20 years, allowing him to baptize your children, using the title of his sermons for the title of your book, etc... You'd be guilty of his sins by association.

Mr. Peabody, I expected better from you. Considering his association with Wright, he may well be a black separatist. Guess what? Politicians lie to get into office.

[jochhejaam]

After sitting under Wright's pastorship for 20 years, it's no wonder that Ms. Obama said that "for the first time in my adult life, I"m proud of my Country". Her clarification of that statement, that "clearly <if it was clear you wouldn't have to clarify it>I meant that for the first time I'm seeing people rolling up their sleeves, trying to figure this thing out," etc., was to me disingenuous. It would have made more sense if she had said something along the lines of, "for the first I'm proud of my Country because it became apparent, especially in light of the fact that Obama was carrying a majority of the white male vote, that a large percentage of white people can look beyond the color of a person, and come to thought out conclusions, based on content, with race playing no part in their decision" <that's not to suggest that those voting for Hillary are voting based on race, that would be an ignorant viewpoint>. That makes more sense to me, and I don't feel it would have been interpreted in such a way as to damage his candidacy

Heck, we haven't been far removed from the days of forced segration, separate but equal facilities, racial stereotyping <---still not totally out of the backwoods on this one>, etc. She would have every right, as do all who don't judge a person by the color of their skin, to feel proud that those days are progressively being put behind us.
Just my two cents worth, maybe she doesn't feel that way at all.


Obama's comment regarding Wright's rant about God damning America "I didn't hear it in person" was soooo lame! Was that supposed to serve as a disclaimer and reassure the voters that he wholeheartedly rejected the message? Why the delay in issuing his denoucement of Wright's 7 year old hateful comments? Did he have to check with Wright to make sure he could get his blessing on releasing a repudiation of his hate mongering? Another backroom "wink-wink" deal, ala the anti-Nafta rhetoric and alledged backroom reassurance he gave Canada that it was no more than "campaign rhetoric"?
A quick and decisive denouncement would have stunted much of the distrust and speculation that now abounds.
These concerns are legitimate and for the vast majority of people, have absolutely to do with hate or race.


And Joe, I have respect for you and your opinions, but Hagee wasn't McCain's Pastor for 20 years, so your attempted parallel of those 2 with Obama and Wright wasn't a good one.

[JoeChalupa]

No, it's guilt by voluntary, continued, long-term, close, and fraternal association over a period of 20 years. The man baptized his children and Obama continues to expose his children to this idiot's bigoted, hate-filled sermons, week after week after week.

And, as for your pedophile analogy; you tried to change the subject to that of the church and not the priest. Another attempt by bumbling Joe to throw and orange into an apple conversation. No one said you should turn your back on the Catholic faith because of the actions of one priest. But, if you knew the priest at your church was a pedophile and did nothing yet, even worse, continued to be a parishoner at that church for 20 years, allowing him to baptize your children, using the title of his sermons for the title of your book, etc... You'd be guilty of his sins by association.

Mr. Peabody, I expected better from you. Considering his association with Wright, he may well be a black separatist. Guess what? Politicians lie to get into office.

I'm not bumbling at all. And yes, I agree that IF I knew a Priest was a pedophile and continued to support him than I would be guilty.
I'm not changing the subject at all, and that wasn't my intention. Perhaps my analogy wasn't a good one but my intent was there. I'll grant you that.
But I still stand behind Obama and am not going to hold the words and actions of his Pastor against him.
He has said he does not agree with the controversial statements of Pastor Wright and I take him on his word....as does John McCain.

Just like you continue to support Bush after he's been caught in lies of his own. And yes, politicians lie to get into and stay in office.

Good points though. :tu

[JoeChalupa]

And Joe, I have respect for you and your opinions, but Hagee wasn't McCain's Pastor for 20 years, so your attempted parallel of those 2 with Obama and Wright wasn't a good one.

Doesn't change the fact that Hagee made and still sticks behind his statements and McCain has not denounced his endorsement. But I don't hold it against McCain AT ALL. I know McCain doesn't share those views.

[JoeChalupa]

This is what our politic discourse is nowadays? Issues no longer matter, it's all just "gothcha" politics. You say you admire a man for one facet of his life and now you necessarily assume responsibility for every other facet of his life as well. :rolleyes



Hell, I got married at St. James Church on Theo St. even though I strongly disagree with the Catholic church on their stances on certain political (some would argue moral) issues. Why did I get married there? It's the community church. My family's been attending that church since before I was born. My wife and her family belong to church. The priest at the church, Father Emmet, has presided over every funeral, wedding, baptism, etc. in my family. Heck, the guy will probably baptize my son. We attend the church from time to time, more for the community aspect than anything (I, myself, am an atheist). I sit and listen to the sermons. Many are uplifting and at times, I enjoy the message. But again, I disagree with just about everything the church stands for politically and would hate to have the church's stances somehow attributed to me because of my attendance at St. James.

I was listening to Joe Pags last night and I don't know if he's just trying to generate interest in his show by saying outlandish things or if he really is that stupid. Last night, he said something to the effect of "Barack talks about hope and change, but the more I learn about him, the more obvious it is that the hope and change he wants is to get rid of the white man." :wtf

So now Barack's a Black separatist? :dramaquee

Those were my thoughts as well while I was listening to his show. If he truly believes that is what Obama thinks then Pags is just as ignorant as others.

[Mr. Peabody]

Mr. Peabody, I expected better from you. Considering his association with Wright, he may well be a black separatist. Guess what? Politicians lie to get into office.

So now we shouldn't judge people by their own words/actions, but rather the words of the people they are associated with?

Look, my grandfather, a man who I admire immensely and saw somewhat as a father figure, was as racist as racist can be. Seriously, the guy thought that Blacks couldn't be trusted, were sinister, etc. But just because I admire the man, doesn't mean I accept his views whole-cloth. I recognize that he was brought up in a different era and probably didn't know many Blacks when he was growing up. He was ignorant when it came to other races or cultures. However, according to your logic, I very well may be a racist because I admire the guy. I think view this ignores the life that I've lived, the people I've cared about and the actions I have taken.

All that being said though, I did watch some youtube videos of Wright and some of the things he said were idiotic.

[Mr. Peabody]

Obama's comment regarding Wright's rant about God damning America "I didn't hear it in person" was soooo lame! Was that supposed to serve as a disclaimer and reassure the voters that he wholeheartedly rejected the message? Why the delay in issuing his denoucement of Wright's 7 year old hateful comments? Did he have to check with Wright to make sure he could get his blessing on releasing a repudiation of his hate mongering? Another backroom "wink-wink" deal, ala the anti-Nafta rhetoric and alledged backroom reassurance he gave Canada that it was no more than "campaign rhetoric"?
A quick and decisive denouncement would have stunted much of the distrust and speculation that now abounds.


I am sure the reason it took so long do denounce his pastor is because he would essentially be denouncing his church. I imagine he didn't want to have to do that. He probably has friends and associates in the church, people he has known for a long time. It's almost like denouncing a member of your family.

[Holt's Cat]

Naturally when McCain receives an endorsement from Hagee, it's not an acceptance of the "Reverend's" views.

Here we are again. Playing this stupid fucking game while the country is $9 trillion in debt ($1 tril of that is to the Communist-cum-Capitalist Chinese), budget deficits as far as the eye can see, unsustainable entitlement program liabilities, slowing economic growth, with the dollar hitting all-time lows against every other major currency, $110/bbl oil, residential housing markets in meltdown, the Fed printing money like mad and bailing out Wall Street and we're worried about someone's minister? This is so fucking stupid.

[Mr. Peabody]

Here we are again. Playing this stupid fucking game while the country is $9 trillion in debt ($1 tril of that is to the Communist-cum-Capitalist Chinese), budget deficits as far as the eye can see, unsustainable entitlement program liabilities, slowing economic growth, with the dollar hitting all-time lows against every other major currency, $110/bbl oil, residential housing markets in meltdown, the Fed printing money like mad and bailing out Wall Street and we're worried about someone's minister? This is so fucking stupid.

:clap

[Yonivore]

So now we shouldn't judge people by their own words/actions, but rather the words of the people they are associated with?

Look, my grandfather, a man who I admire immensely and saw somewhat as a father figure, was as racist as racist can be. Seriously, the guy thought that Blacks couldn't be trusted, were sinister, etc. But just because I admire the man, doesn't mean I accept his views whole-cloth. I recognize that he was brought up in a different era and probably didn't know many Blacks when he was growing up. He was ignorant when it came to other races or cultures. However, according to your logic, I very well may be a racist because I admire the guy. I think view this ignores the life that I've lived, the people I've cared about and the actions I have taken.

All that being said though, I did watch some youtube videos of Wright and some of the things he said were idiotic.
Okay, again, you're not getting it. It's the old you can pick your friends but you can't pick your family thing. You were related to your grandfather and, in some respects, were forced to accept his idiosychratic ways. In that environment, I'm sure you were able to find many things to respect and admire...because, well, he was family and you wanted to see the good.

Obama's membership in a church with a bigoted pastor is purely voluntary.

[Yonivore]

I am sure the reason it took so long do denounce his pastor is because he would essentially be denouncing his church. I imagine he didn't want to have to do that. He probably has friends and associates in the church, people he has known for a long time. It's almost like denouncing a member of your family.
He had the racist on his campaign team.

[ChumpDumper]

:lol Thank goodness we're talking about the real issues facing this country.

[word]

What I find amazing is this just came out. On the political board I go to, this has been part of the discussion for the better part of a year. We're have people been ?

[Yonivore]

There is one "X" Factor in this whole thing...Oprah. She has a decision to make; spend her considerable celebrity capital redeeming Wright, who is also her pastor, or...propping up Obama.

Can't wait to see the Oprah promos next week. Of course, it could backfire on her as well. There are a lot of Soccer Moms that worship at the church of Oprah. She'd better be careful not to damage her own brand in the process of trying to fix Obama's mess.

Besides, what the hell is she doing at that racist church too?

[ChumpDumper]

This is important!

[Mr. Peabody]

What I find amazing is this just came out. On the political board I go to, this has been part of the discussion for the better part of a year. We're have people been ?

No, Obama's church and pastor have been discussed here in the past. It's just that now that Hannity and the rest have made this a major issue, others on this board now see it as a major issue as well.

[boutons_]

Trash Obama for his middle name,

trash Obama for his minister's hateful bullshit,

trash Obama for just anything rather than keep the real issues of Iraq, healthcare, economy in voters' attention.

[jochhejaam]

Here we are again. Playing this stupid fucking game while the country is $9 trillion in debt ($1 tril of that is to the Communist-cum-Capitalist Chinese), budget deficits as far as the eye can see, unsustainable entitlement program liabilities, slowing economic growth, with the dollar hitting all-time lows against every other major currency, $110/bbl oil, residential housing markets in meltdown, the Fed printing money like mad and bailing out Wall Street and we're worried about someone's minister? This is so fucking stupid.


And you couldn't help but to engage in the "stupidity" before pontificating from your own little soap box. <below>


Naturally when McCain receives an endorsement from Hagee, it's not an acceptance of the "Reverend's" views.



Obama's brought this upon himself by not bolting from, or confronting Uncle Wright as he was making those comments.
IMO, since he did neither, he possibly;
1. doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to confront situations that make him uncomfortable or,
2. The abominable, racist, hateful comments from Wright didn't bother him.

These issues are still in the forefront of all major news mediums and they are still issues to be discussed in forums such as this. And the reason they're still hot topics? Because if either of the above, or some other unsavory reasoning behind Obama's apathy to Wright's vitriolic rhetoric are substantiated, then he would not be cut from the timber that enables a man to effectively lead this Country for the next 4 years.

No one is forced to participate in the discussion, so don't participate.


And Holt, if you're so hell-bent on discussing only the "serious" problems facing our Country and not "stupid" stuff, why are you starting threads such as;
"Where are the TP hatas"? :lol
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89593


And which of the Country's problems problems are being solved with posts like this;

McCain has no problem castigating lobbyists unless there's pussy attached
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87711

[Wild Cobra]

Many of you are dancing around the real issue.

Obama calls someone who is clearly a racist, a close friend and a mentor of 20 years. There is no way in hell he doesn't know this man's thoughts in this area.

Now. If any white man called himself a close friend to a White Supremacist, and mentor for 20 years...

This is what the problem is.

Why do blacks get a pass on this? If a white republican had a similar relationship, the attacks in the news would be making sure such a point was made. Over and over, relentlessly. Civil rights groups would be screaming.

Who stand up for the white man against black racists?

Anyone?

Any of you rationalizing a pass for Obama on this one... You fuckers disgust me! Any thing short of Obama not completely cutting this man off from access, and forcefully denouncing him. Not just his words. Is completely inadequate.

Say anything that questions the color of Obama's skin into play, and people get fired.... Shouldn't it work both ways?

I'm getting so sick and tired of special rights. The black community will never be equal until we feel equal about hate speech initiated by them.

Does Obama still have a cabinet position for him?

[Extra Stout]

It must really suck to be that jaded...... maybe you could use a dose of hope yourself
Really, I think my version gives Obama as much credit as possible. In my view, Obama is just an opportunistic politician who goes to the "right" church to build up his political bona fides. In my view, he is only pretending to regard a hate-filled, conspiracy-theorizing, anti-American lunatic as his closest spiritual advisor.

I mean, every big city probably has at least one left-wing social-gospel fake church with a pastor hung over from the black-power '60s, more or less. And clearly TUCC was the "in" place for upwardly mobile urban Chicago blacks. Oprah goes there, yet somehow she apparently has avoided becoming anti-American.

Church membership out of political expediency is nothing new.

In the other possibility, Obama truly regarded a hate-filled, conspiracy-theorizing, anti-American lunatic as his closest spiritual advisor.

Would you like to pick one?

[smeagol]

trash Obama for his ministers hateful bullshit

Hateful?

We thinks exactly as you do . . .

[Mr. Peabody]

Shocking video from Obama's church -

ioaChVw_pUw

Will their hatred of all white people ever cease....?

[Mr. Peabody]

Senator Obama with more of his hate-the-white-man inspired dialogue


said, we’ve got a choice in taking the rage and bitterness and disappointment and letting it fester and dividing us further so that we no longer see each other as Americans but we see each other as separate and apart and at odds with each other. [B]Or we can take a different path that says we have different stories, but we have common dreams and common hopes. And we can decide to walk down this road together. And remake America once again. And, you know, I think about those words often, especially in the last several weeks - because this campaign started on the basis that we are one America. As I said in my speech at the convention in 2004, there is no Black America, or White America, or Asian America, or Latino America. There is the United States of America. But I noticed over the last several weeks that the forces of division have started to raise their ugly heads again. And I’m not here to cast blame or point fingers because everybody, you know, senses that there’s been this shift. You know, that you’ve been seeing in the reporting. You’ve been seeing some of the commentaries of supporters on all sides. Most recently, you heard some statements from my former pastor that were incendiary and that I completely reject, although I knew him and know him as somebody in my church who talked to me about Jesus and family and friendships, but clearly had — but if all I knew was those statements that I saw on television, I would be shocked. And it just reminds me that we’ve got a tragic history when it comes to race in this country. We’ve got a lot of pent-up anger and bitterness and misunderstanding. But what I continue to believe in is that this country wants to move beyond these kinds of divisions. That this country wants something different.

I just want to say to everybody here that as somebody who was born into a diverse family, as somebody who has little pieces of America all in me, I will not allow us to lose this moment, where we cannot forget about our past and not ignore the very real forces of racial inequality and gender inequality and the other things that divide us. I don’t want us to forget them. We have to acknowledge them and lift them up and when people say things like my former pastor said, you know, you have to speak out forcefully against them. But what you also have to do is remember what Bobby Kennedy said. That it is within our power to join together to truly make a United States of America. And that we have to do not just so that our children live in a more peaceful country and a more peaceful world, but that is the only way that we are going to deliver on the big issues that we’re facing in this country. We can’t solve health care divided. We cannot create an economy that works for everybody divided. We can’t fight terrorism divided. We can’t care for our veterans divided. We have to come together. That’s what this campaign is about. That’s why you are here. That’s why we’re going to win this election. That’s how we’re going to change the country.

[Yonivore]

No, Obama's church and pastor have been discussed here in the past. It's just that now that Hannity and the rest have made this a major issue, others on this board now see it as a major issue as well.
Actually, it was ABC News that broke it this week.

[Nbadan]

McCain's having been at campaign rallies with John Hagee and Rod Parsley is a huge deal.

WTF? If that's all the political influence you think John Hagee possess, especially for Dubya and McCain, you must be living under a rock...the guy practically writes the administration's Middle East policy.....would Wright play such a influencial role in the Obama camp? I would say not.....

[Nbadan]

a man of honor and integrity who has served his Country proudly. I don't give a rat's ass what somebody else says.
And if you've researched and listended to Obama you'd realize that his views are not the same as his Pastor's on all issues.

Joe, you've got a lot to learn about McCain...there's a reason why he's been swiftboated by Republicans more often than Monica Lewingski...they know that after eight years of Dubya, their chances of winning with a McCain/Jesus ticket in 08' would be slim to none...so give the old man his run...watch him lose, hope that the 'other' Republican running as a Demo wins, Hitlary, and then maybe crazy mcCain will go away

[Nbadan]

my two cents to this is that Hagee is basing his words from The Bible. (this may unleash a whole new monster, but oh well) Hagee is preaching about actions against God. i don't hear "black" or "white" this or that. the other guy is saying "white" "black". he also said the 9/11 attacks were brought on by us occupying other nations.


....your not Muslim.....it's not 'black' or 'white'....in his sermons Hagee regularly generalizes against all Muslims even though 99.99% of Muslims don't give a fuck about the U.S., except that they want us to quit supplying their ruling elite, who are driving their countries under the ground, with hords of cash and military weapons....

...that's the way bigots work...and Hagee's game, while he may disquise it under the cloak of religion is no different than the Nazi....

[Nbadan]

P.S. About Israel, you may have noticed how in 20 years, Israelis transformed Palestine from a seri-arid backwater with some almond trees into a prosperous industrialized nation and regional power. In the meantime, the Arabs still haven't discovered toilet paper. That may have something to do with why they can't beat Israel at wars.

Isreal also gets minimum $6 billion per year in military aid from the U.S. and billions, I've heard estimates of $40 billion in cash - yearly...no other Middle East country comes close...if Isreal is a regional power it's because the U.S. wished it to be so...

[Nbadan]

There's only one question I have to ask...

If this were John McCain's pastor, and that pastor were spewing white supremacist rhetoric (instead of anti-semitic, anti-white, anti-American rhetoric)... would John McCain be able to survive having called such a man his "mentor", having been in his church for years, having been married by the man, etc.?

The answer should be obvious.

Hagee preaches anti-catholic, anti-anything but white, and anti-American rhetoric all the time...where is your outrage that a guy like this can meet privately with the current President at a whim of a phone call, whenever he pleases? Where is your outrage that Hagee and his 'save Israel' foundation, along with AIPAC, practically write US Middle East policy?

You can't have it both ways, if your gonna condemn Wright's sermons as 'hate speech' then you have zero credibility if you don't condemn Hagee, and John McCain for not immediately rejecting his endorsement.

[Nbadan]

Naturally when McCain receives an endorsement from Hagee, it's not an acceptance of the "Reverend's" views.

Here we are again. Playing this stupid fucking game while the country is $9 trillion in debt ($1 tril of that is to the Communist-cum-Capitalist Chinese), budget deficits as far as the eye can see, unsustainable entitlement program liabilities, slowing economic growth, with the dollar hitting all-time lows against every other major currency, $110/bbl oil, residential housing markets in meltdown, the Fed printing money like mad and bailing out Wall Street and we're worried about someone's minister? This is so fucking stupid.

I agree, but the wing-nut M$M has every intention to never let the 08 campaign be about real issues because every real issue McCain and Republicans can be running on, Iraq, the economy, heath-care, are all going in the shitter....

[Nbadan]

Actually, it was ABC News that broke it this week.

...big surprise there...ABC News has solidified it's FAUX-like mold.....

[Yonivore]

...big surprise there...ABC News has solidified it's FAUX-like mold.....
Whatever, Dan. It wasn't Sean Hannity.

[Mr. Peabody]

Actually, it was ABC News that broke it this week.

How do you "break" a story that has been in the media for months now?

[jochhejaam]

I agree, but the wing-nut M$M has every intention to never let the 08 campaign be about real issues because every real issue McCain and Republicans can be running on, Iraq, the economy, heath-care, are all going in the shitter....
Already preparing an excuse for another Democrat debacle in the upcoming election?

Cuomo faults Hillary and Obama.





Cuomo, a Democrat, said the party may be able to avoid a damaging convention fight if Clinton and Obama teamed up on a party ticket, or if the media forced the candidates before then to substantively address big policy issues facing the nation, such as the economy and the war in Iraq.

The second alternative would be to abandon ``phony'' debate formats and instead compel the candidates to answer detailed questions on policy issues, Cuomo said. The approach would allow voters to make a decision based on substance, he said. <---Wow, imagine that! A novel idea if ever I've heard one!

Right now, it's being done by persona: she's a pain in the neck; she's too this; she's too that,'' Cuomo said. Debates, he said, have become a ``glibness contest.''

``They like that because they're both very, very glib,'' Cuomo said. ``That's what allowed them to make such a big thing about race and a big thing about gender, because that gap could be filled with specific answers to the specific questions.''

Candidates should be grilled on their Iraq war positions and how they would improve the economy, said Cuomo, 75.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aUH0Dx6snd7E&refer=worldwide

[Holt's Cat]

And you couldn't help but to engage in the "stupidity" before pontificating from your own little soap box. <below>


Nah, all I pointed out was that both had crazy ministers in their camps. Doesn't necessarily mean that I believe it's that significant in a presidential campaign.



Obama's brought this upon himself by not bolting from, or confronting Uncle Wright as he was making those comments.
IMO, since he did neither, he possibly;
1. doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to confront situations that make him uncomfortable or,
2. The abominable, racist, hateful comments from Wright didn't bother him.

These issues are still in the forefront of all major news mediums and they are still issues to be discussed in forums such as this. And the reason they're still hot topics? Because if either of the above, or some other unsavory reasoning behind Obama's apathy to Wright's vitriolic rhetoric are substantiated, then he would not be cut from the timber that enables a man to effectively lead this Country for the next 4 years.

No one is forced to participate in the discussion, so don't participate.


I'll participate in what I feel feel like.




And Holt, if you're so hell-bent on discussing only the "serious" problems facing our Country and not "stupid" stuff, why are you starting threads such as;
"Where are the TP hatas"? :lol
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89593


Whoa. I posted about the Spurs in a Spurs forum. You really got me now.

If you are so hell-bent on saving this country from controversial black ministers why are you doing it on a basketball forum? Seriously.




And which of the Country's problems problems are being solved with posts like this;

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87711


I'd say it's a tad bit more important to the Republic to realize who the candidate is making laws for instead of who they claim as their pastor.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=Holt's Cat]
Whoa. I posted about the Spurs in a Spurs forum. You really got me now.
The point was occupying time with "stupid <trivial> things <according to you> while the Country's going to hell-in-a-handbasket.


If you are so hell-bent on saving this country from controversial black ministers why are you doing it on a basketball forum? Seriously.
Typical mischaracterization. Integrity is seriously lacking here.





I'd say it's a tad bit more important to the Republic to realize who the candidate is making laws for instead of who they claim as their pastor
Depends on if the candidate's philosophy identifies with his racist pastor.

Both are important

[clambake]

while the Country's going to hell-in-a-handbasket. it only took me seven years to recognize.

[Nbadan]

How do you "break" a story that has been in the media for months now?

The M$M finally gets their incompetent asses to report it....

[Yonivore]

How do you "break" a story that has been in the media for months now?
Fine, re-broke it. It's the first I've heard of this guy and I heard it from ABC News.

[Spawn]

That's not "trembling." That's liberals scratching their heads and asking themselves, "Do I really want to vote for this Obama guy?" Hillary is working to play latent racial divisions on the left to her advantage, and it's starting to pay dividends.

I do wonder which flavor of black nationalist you are. Please select which vision best fits your views. Also feel free to elaborate.

A) Blacks in America must form a cohesive internal community that values education, economic self-determination, and mutual assistance. This will result in blacks enjoying the same degree of success as other high-achieving ethnic minorities and will compel wider America to deal with blacks on equitable terms and arrive at peaceful co-existence.
B) All of A, but in addition, black self-determination and peaceful co-existence can only be fully achieved through a separate black-ruled nation parceled out from American territory.

C) Most of A, but rather than having has a goal equitable and peaceful co-existence with other races, blacks must achieve complete rule over America and/or subjugation of nonblacks the way blacks were once subjugated.

Option A pretty much sums up my beliefs.

[Spawn]

What I really find funny is that people actually believe that this church is a place where the "militants" reside. This place is so far from being militant. I am from Chicago, and the congregation of this church is filled with mostly well to do people in the Black Bourgeois who go here in order to feel as if they are activists but in actuality are far from it.

[Extra Stout]

Hagee preaches anti-catholic, anti-anything but white, and anti-American rhetoric all the time...where is your outrage that a guy like this can meet privately with the current President at a whim of a phone call, whenever he pleases? Where is your outrage that Hagee and his 'save Israel' foundation, along with AIPAC, practically write US Middle East policy?

You can't have it both ways, if your gonna condemn Wright's sermons as 'hate speech' then you have zero credibility if you don't condemn Hagee, and John McCain for not immediately rejecting his endorsement.It took Nbadan a while, but he's got his bearings back, and is ready with his talking points. Now Hagee is the successor to Jerry Falwell, with the clout of Billy Graham.

[Extra Stout]

Isreal also gets minimum $6 billion per year in military aid from the U.S. and billions, I've heard estimates of $40 billion in cash - yearly...no other Middle East country comes close...if Isreal is a regional power it's because the U.S. wished it to be so...
That is an anti-Semite talking point. It's one of the excuses Muslims use to explain why Israel is a modern, prosperous state and their countries aren't. It also hearkens back to one of the big drives behind Jew hatred -- that Jewish people can't be that successful on account of their culture; they must be cheating somebody, or some entity out there must be aiding them illicitly.

It's not surprising to hear you regurgitate that, since the modern hard left is anti-Semitic.

[Extra Stout]

Hagee preaches anti-catholic, anti-anything but white, and anti-American rhetoric all the time...where is your outrage that a guy like this can meet privately with the current President at a whim of a phone call, whenever he pleases? Where is your outrage that Hagee and his 'save Israel' foundation, along with AIPAC, practically write US Middle East policy?

You can't have it both ways, if your gonna condemn Wright's sermons as 'hate speech' then you have zero credibility if you don't condemn Hagee, and John McCain for not immediately rejecting his endorsement.
Nice talking point. Link, please?

[Extra Stout]

Option A pretty much sums up my beliefs.
Is there some foundation I can write a check to, to support that?

[PixelPusher]

Obama's Minister Committed "Treason" But When My Father Said the Same Thing He Was a Republican Hero (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/obamas-minister-committe_b_91774.html)

When Senator Obama's preacher thundered about racism and injustice Obama suffered smear-by-association. But when my late father -- Religious Right leader Francis Schaeffer -- denounced America and even called for the violent overthrow of the US government, he was invited to lunch with presidents Ford, Reagan and Bush, Sr.

Every Sunday thousands of right wing white preachers (following in my father's footsteps) rail against America's sins from tens of thousands of pulpits. They tell us that America is complicit in the "murder of the unborn," has become "Sodom" by coddling gays, and that our public schools are sinful places full of evolutionists and sex educators hell-bent on corrupting children. They say, as my dad often did, that we are, "under the judgment of God." They call America evil and warn of immanent destruction. By comparison Obama's minister's shouted "controversial" comments were mild. All he said was that God should damn America for our racism and violence and that no one had ever used the N-word about Hillary Clinton.

Dad and I were amongst the founders of the Religious right. In the 1970s and 1980s, while Dad and I crisscrossed America denouncing our nation's sins instead of getting in trouble we became darlings of the Republican Party. (This was while I was my father's sidekick before I dropped out of the evangelical movement altogether.) We were rewarded for our "stand" by people such as Congressman Jack Kemp, the Fords, Reagan and the Bush family. The top Republican leadership depended on preachers and agitators like us to energize their rank and file. No one called us un-American.

Consider a few passages from my father's immensely influential America-bashing book A Christian Manifesto. It sailed under the radar of the major media who, back when it was published in 1980, were not paying particular attention to best-selling religious books. Nevertheless it sold more than a million copies.

Here's Dad writing in his chapter on civil disobedience:

"If there is a legitimate reason for the use of force [against the US government]... then at a certain point force is justifiable."

And this:

"In the United States the materialistic, humanistic world view is being taught exclusively in most state schools... There is an obvious parallel between this and the situation in Russia [the USSR]. And we really must not be blind to the fact that indeed in the public schools in the United States all religious influence is as forcibly forbidden as in the Soviet Union...."

Then this:

"There does come a time when force, even physical force, is appropriate... A true Christian in Hitler's Germany and in the occupied countries should have defied the false and counterfeit state. This brings us to a current issue that is crucial for the future of the church in the United States, the issue of abortion... It is time we consciously realize that when any office commands what is contrary to God's law it abrogates it's authority. And our loyalty to the God who gave this law then requires that we make the appropriate response in that situation..."

Was any conservative political leader associated with Dad running for cover? Far from it. Dad was a frequent guest of the Kemps, had lunch with the Fords, stayed in the White House as their guest, he met with Reagan, helped Dr. C. Everett Koop become Surgeon General. (I went on the 700 Club several times to generate support for Koop).

Dad became a hero to the evangelical community and a leading political instigator. When Dad died in 1984 everyone from Reagan to Kemp to Billy Graham lamented his passing publicly as the loss of a great American. Not one Republican leader was ever asked to denounce my dad or distanced himself from Dad's statements.

Take Dad's words and put them in the mouth of Obama's preacher (or in the mouth of any black American preacher) and people would be accusing that preacher of treason. Yet when we of the white Religious Right denounced America white conservative Americans and top political leaders, called our words "godly" and "prophetic" and a "call to repentance."

We Republican agitators of the mid 1970s to the late 1980s were genuinely anti-American in the same spirit that later Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson (both followers of my father) were anti-American when they said God had removed his blessing from America on 9/11, because America accepted gays. Falwell and Robertson recanted but we never did.

My dad's books denouncing America and comparing the USA to Hitler are still best sellers in the "respectable" evangelical community and he's still hailed as a prophet by many Republican leaders. When Mike Huckabee was recently asked by Katie Couric to name one book he'd take with him to a desert island, besides the Bible, he named Dad's Whatever Happened to the Human Race? a book where Dad also compared America to Hitler's Germany.

The hypocrisy of the right denouncing Obama, because of his minister's words, is staggering. They are the same people who argue for the right to "bear arms" as "insurance" to limit government power. They are the same people that (in the early 1980s roared and cheered when I called down damnation on America as "fallen away from God" at their national meetings where I was keynote speaker, including the annual meeting of the ultraconservative Southern Baptist convention, and the religious broadcasters that I addressed.

Today we have a marriage of convenience between the right wing fundamentalists who hate Obama, and the "progressive" Clintons who are playing the race card through their own smear machine. As Jane Smiley writes in the Huffington Post "[The Clinton's] are, indeed, now part of the 'vast right wing conspiracy.'

Both the far right Republicans and the stop-at-nothing Clintons are using the "scandal" of Obama's preacher to undermine the first black American candidate with a serious shot at the presidency. Funny thing is, the racist Clinton/Far Right smear machine proves that Obama's minister had a valid point. There is plenty to yell about these days.

Frank Schaeffer is a writer and author of "CRAZY FOR GOD-How I Grew Up As One Of The Elect, Helped Found The Religious Right, And Lived To Take All (Or Almost All) Of It Back

[Heath Ledger]

I find it hard to believe this Pastor/Minister hasn't said such controversial things in the past when Obama boy was in attendance, therefore if he did and continued to attend this fuckers services then I would have a big problem. In other words Fuck You Hussein Obama!

[George Gervin's Afro]

These charges REEK of Republican desperation.. what do they want to talk about? Values? no. What about policy? No. There's alway's national defense? NO.

But let's play the guilt by association charge.. :rolleyes


on a much smaller note it is amazing to me that the same people who claim the Clinton's always play dirty are the one's whoring this story.. If the Clinton's so much as whispered about this story they would be accused of being up to their old dirty tricks but they haven't so it's just politics when they aren't involved.. :rolleyes


Fox News and talk radio are very interested in this story..

[xrayzebra]

These charges REEK of Republican desperation.. what do they want to talk about? Values? no. What about policy? No. There's alway's national defense? NO.

But let's play the guilt by association charge.. :rolleyes


on a much smaller note it is amazing to me that the same people who claim the Clinton's always play dirty are the one's whoring this story.. If the Clinton's so much as whispered about this story they would be accused of being up to their old dirty tricks but they haven't so it's just politics when they aren't involved.. :rolleyes


Fox News and talk radio are very interested in this story..

Oh come on GGA. Take a deep breath. Republican
desperation. The blasted dimm-o-craps brought all
this junk up.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Oh come on GGA. Take a deep breath. Republican
desperation. The blasted dimm-o-craps brought all
this junk up.


which dimm-o-craps ray?

[Spurminator]

I think Obama opponents may be overplaying their hand here...

The worst case scenario here is that Obama agrees with everything his minister has said. So what if that's true? Is Obama an anti-American mole who would use his position of power to destroy the country? I doubt it. We all know his campaign is about "change"... and the desire for "change" and the promise of "hope" comes from dissatisfaction with the status quo. He's published his "Blueprint for Change" and we know the extraordinary budget that goes with it.

So I don't think it would be any stunning revalation to find that Obama isn't "Proud to be an American" right now. And that's still the worst case scenario. The more likely scenario, which I alluded to earlier in the thread and ES suggested in better detail, is that Obama is a member of this church and a friend of the pastor because it is politically convenient for a minority Democratic politician.

The minister leads a congregation that feels victimized and repressed and expects their government to do more for them. Sounds like your average Democratic campaign rally. The only reason it's offensive to me is that Wright is supposed to be a shepherd for Christ, not a shill for party politicians. But sadly he's not the only one who is guilty of misusing his position as a spiritual leader.

[DarkReign]

But sadly he's not the only one who is guilty of misusing his position as a spiritual leader.

ie every religious leader since the dawn of man, whether a lowly tribal shaman or a pope.

[Spurminator]

ie every religious leader since the dawn of man, whether a lowly tribal shaman or a pope.


Nah, there are many great people leading congregations in this country. Their hearts are in the right place and they're serving God and helping a lot of people. But they don't get the same amount of attention as the religious leaders with big stages and Nightly News-friendly soundbyte messages.

[Yonivore]

These charges REEK of Republican desperation.. what do they want to talk about? Values? no. What about policy? No. There's alway's national defense? NO.
First of all, Republican desperation? Hey, from my view, all non-liberals are on the sidelines on this one...it's up to Democrat voters to decide if it affects his getting the nomination.


But let's play the guilt by association charge.. :rolleyes
Let's pretend he was Republican, white and attended a church led by a Grand Kleagle of the KKK...or, a white separatists (Wright is a black separatist).

Would he get a pass? Would you question his reasons for attending THAT church when ther are others, preaching the Gospel (many in the same denomination), right there in Chicago?

How 'bout if he allowed the white separatist pastor to baptize his children, counsel him, sit on a campaign committee...etc...

Is it really not an issue?


on a much smaller note it is amazing to me that the same people who claim the Clinton's always play dirty are the one's whoring this story.. If the Clinton's so much as whispered about this story they would be accused of being up to their old dirty tricks but they haven't so it's just politics when they aren't involved.. :rolleyes
If you don't think the Clintons are loving every minute of this, you're stupid.


Fox News and talk radio are very interested in this story..
Again, it was ABC News that re-introduced the topic this past week.

[Yonivore]

We are judged by the company we keep.

[Extra Stout]

So I don't think it would be any stunning revalation to find that Obama isn't "Proud to be an American" right now. And that's still the worst case scenario. The more likely scenario, which I alluded to earlier in the thread and ES suggested in better detail, is that Obama is a member of this church and a friend of the pastor because it is politically convenient for a minority Democratic politician. I also suspect his waxing poetic about how important his faith is in his life, and what a mentor Wright has been to him, is partly to reinforce his image as this uniter for hope and change, to tell some of the more moderate religious folks, whose vision of the intersection of faith and politics is more than just abortion and gay marriage, "See, I'm like you and understand you. Religion is important to me." And while I don't doubt it is indeed important to him, his verbosity in expressing it is just taking a page out of the Republican playbook. In this case, it backfired, because the voters he was trying to appeal to by bringing up his relationship to his pastor are probably immediately turned off by the things his pastor said.

[degenerate_gambler]

this should be interesting:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0308/Obama_plans_major_race_speech_tomorrow.html

March 17, 2008
Categories: Barack Obama

Obama plans major race speech tomorrow


Barack Obama will give a major speech on "the larger issue of race in this campaign," he told reporters in Monaca, PA just now.

He was pressed there, as he has been at recent appearances, on statements by his former pastor, Jeremiah Wright.

"I am going to be talking about not just Reverend Wright, but the larger issue of race in this campaign," he said.

He added that he would "talk about how some of these issues are perceived from within the black church issue for example," he said.

He also briefly defended Wright from the image that has come through in a handful of repeatedly televised clips from recent Wright sermons.

"The caricature that’s being painted of him is not accurate," he said.

The speech could offer Obama an opportunity to move past the controversy over his pastor, and to turn the conversation to a topic he'd rather focus on: his Christian faith. But the speech also guarantees that the Wright story will continue to dominate political headlines.

Mitt Romney's attempt directly to address his Mormonism last year never decisively put the issue to rest for some voters.

Obama's schedule puts him in Philadelphia tomorrow.




By Ben Smith 01:40 PM

[peewee's lovechild]

From an Obama supporter:

(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gerald-posner/reverend-wright-and-barac_b_91693.html)



I am a Barack Obama supporter. I liked Senator John Edwards, think Hilary Clinton would make a super president, but have been persuaded ever since the start of the campaign that Barack offers the greatest chance for substantive, and greatly over needed, change.

I'm still in the Barack camp. But, as a vocal supporter, I'd like just a couple of answers about the flap over Reverend Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright, Jr, the former pastor of Trinity United Church of Christ, the Chicago megachurch where the Obamas have been members for 20 years.

Email
Print
Comments
Buzz up!on Yahoo!Guilt by association is totally unwarranted. Barack is not responsible for Wright's views. However, how he responds to those views -- and whether he is being straight with us, the voters -- is critical as to whether he should lead our country.

The key issue for me, as both a supporter and as a reporter, revolves around what I view as Wright's most incendiary comments, those implying that America -- because of its own actions -- deserved the 9/11 terror attacks.

Wright made his comments on September 16, only 5 days after the deadly strikes in New York and Washington. He said, in part, "We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye....We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back to our own front yards. America's chickens are coming home to roost."

Barack was then serving in the Illinois senate. He had unsuccessfully run for Congress the previous year. Although the Trinity United Church is large (6,000 members), the Obamas were then, and have been since his 1997 election to the State Senate, some of the best known parishioners.

A church, synagogue, mosque, and other places of worship, are like extensions of the local communities they serve. Afro-centric churches like Trinity serve not only as houses of worship but as a backdrop for a wide range of social, personal, and often business, relationships. When a parishioner is away from their house of worship, if the preacher/priest/rabbi/imam says something particularly out of character -- or wildly controversial -- it is almost impossible that members aren't going to talk about it endlessly as gossip.

There was no more traumatic event in our recent history than 9/11. Reverend Wright's comments would have raised a ruckus at most places in America, coming so soon after the the attack itself. Political commentator Bill Maher lost his TV show when he seconded a guest's observation that the hijackers had courage to carry out their attack. The country was emotionally raw.

If the parishioners of Trinity United Church were not buzzing about Reverend Wright's post 9/11 comments, then it could only seem to be because those comments were not out of character with what he preached from the pulpit many times before. In that case, I have to wonder if it is really possible for the Obamas to have been parishioners there -- by 9/11 they were there more than a decade -- and not to have known very clearly how radical Wright's views were. If, on the other hand, parishioners were shocked by Wright's vitriol only days after more than 3,000 Americans had been killed by terrorists, they would have talked about it incessantly. Barack -- a sitting Illinois State Senator -- would have been one of the first to hear about it.

Can't you imagine the call or conversation? "Barack, you aren't going to believe what Revered Wright said yesterday at the church. You should be ready with a comment if someone from the press calls you up."

But Barack now claims he never heard about any of this until after he began his run for the presidency, in February, 20007.

And even if Barack is correct -- and I desperately want to believe him -- then it still does not explain why, when he learned in 2007 of Wright's fringe comments about 9/11 and other subjects, the campaign did not then disassociate itself from the Reverend. Wright was not removed from the campaign's Spiritual Advisory Committee until two days ago, and it appears likely that nothing would have been done had this story not broken nationally.

Come on, Barack. I'm backing you because you are not 'one of them.' You have inspired me and millions of others because you are not a typical politician. You tell it like it is, don't fudge the facts, and don't dodge and weave with clever words to avoid uncomfortable truths.

Tell it straight. Was Reverend Wright so radical that his post 9/11 comments did not cause a stir at the Church, and you never learned about them until 2007, nearly 6 years later? Why, when you did learn about them, did you not ask Revered Wright to step down from his role in your campaign?

Give us the plain truth. You won't lose us by being brutally honest. You only risk shaking our faith in you if you seem like so many other politicians that crowd the field.

Gerald Posner is the author of 10 books of investigative non-fiction, seven NYT bestsellers, and a finalist for the Pulitzer in History. His last book was Secrets of the Kingdom: The Inside Story of the Saudi US Connection.

[peewee's lovechild]

I also suspect his waxing poetic about how important his faith is in his life, and what a mentor Wright has been to him, is partly to reinforce his image as this uniter for hope and change, to tell some of the more moderate religious folks, whose vision of the intersection of faith and politics is more than just abortion and gay marriage, "See, I'm like you and understand you. Religion is important to me." And while I don't doubt it is indeed important to him, his verbosity in expressing it is just taking a page out of the Republican playbook. In this case, it backfired, because the voters he was trying to appeal to by bringing up his relationship to his pastor are probably immediately turned off by the things his pastor said.


It's turning out that Mr. "I'm not one of those politicians" is exactly that.

[Nbadan]

I also suspect his waxing poetic about how important his faith is in his life, and what a mentor Wright has been to him, is partly to reinforce his image as this uniter for hope and change, to tell some of the more moderate religious folks, whose vision of the intersection of faith and politics is more than just abortion and gay marriage, "See, I'm like you and understand you. Religion is important to me." And while I don't doubt it is indeed important to him, his verbosity in expressing it is just taking a page out of the Republican playbook. In this case, it backfired, because the voters he was trying to appeal to by bringing up his relationship to his pastor are probably immediately turned off by the things his pastor said.

It seems that PeeWee and the writer of this letter both have ulterior motives - pretend to like Obama and then regurgitate wing-nut talking points...Yes, anyone who questions if past U.S. foreign policy might have led to the 911 attacks is anti-American

:rolleyes

I think the deeper issue here is that what we are saying to everyone, and especially our future leaders, watch what you say and who you congregate with, no matter what you may believe, because it can and will be used against you by the your enemies M$M....now that's an Amerika to be proud of...

[word]

That all adds up to McCain in '08.

Obama will still get the nomination and run with Bill Richardson. McCain will run with J.C. Watts who will go into full attack mode while McCain sits back and sips Pena Coladas from his bus.

[ChumpDumper]

It's important!

[peewee's lovechild]

It seems that PeeWee and the writer of this letter both have ulterior motives - pretend to like Obama and then regurgitate wing-nut talking points...Yes, anyone who questions if past U.S. foreign policy might have led to the 911 attacks is anti-American

:rolleyes

I think the deeper issue here is that what we are saying to everyone, and especially our future leaders, watch what you say and who you congregate with, no matter what you may believe, because it can and will be used against you by the your enemies M$M....now that's an Amerika to be proud of...


I'm not an Obama supporter.

I voted for Hillary in the Texas Primary.

You're talking out of your ass.

The whole point of my previous post, where one of his supporters is openly questioning him, is that Obama, for all of his "I'm not one of them" speeches, is turning out to be just another politician.

[Holt's Cat]

Obama will still get the nomination and run with Bill Richardson. McCain will run with J.C. Watts who will go into full attack mode while McCain sits back and sips Pena Coladas from his bus.

Rice would be tiptoeing near pandering territory but JC Watts would diving in head first.

[Spurminator]

I think the deeper issue here is that what we are saying to everyone, and especially our future leaders, watch what you say and who you congregate with, no matter what you may believe, because it can and will be used against you by the your enemies M$M....now that's an Amerika to be proud of...


Bookmarked.

[peewee's lovechild]

McCain should run with Kat Williams.

They would win the South in a landslide.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I'm not an Obama supporter.

I voted for Hillary in the Texas Primary.

You're talking out of your ass.

The whole point of my previous post, where one of his supporters is openly questioning him, is that Obama, for all of his "I'm not one of them" speeches, is turning out to be just another politician.


You don't seem to get it. If you didn't fall in love with Obama then you obviously have an agenda and hate black people.

[Holt's Cat]

Bookmarked.

If Nbadan disavows guilt by association, how will he be able to post?

[Nbadan]

If Nbadan disavows guilt by association, how will he be able to post?


Is Wright a criminal? NOT!


:sleep

[Holt's Cat]

Political guilt.

[peewee's lovechild]

You don't seem to get it. If you didn't fall in love with Obama then you obviously have an agenda and hate black people.

It all makes sense now.

[Extra Stout]

It seems that PeeWee and the writer of this letter both have ulterior motives - pretend to like Obama and then regurgitate wing-nut talking points...Yes, anyone who questions if past U.S. foreign policy might have led to the 911 attacks is anti-American
And Dan keeps on scrambling... he still doesn't really know how to get his arms around the "maybe Obama is a politican after all" revelation... the left-wing blogs haven't developed their talking points for it yet... dan hasn't been instructed what to think


I think the deeper issue here is that what we are saying to everyone, and especially our future leaders, watch what you say and who you congregate with, no matter what you may believe, because it can and will be used against you by the your enemies M$M....now that's an Amerika to be proud of...
I know, you prefer an Amerika where left-wing politicans can create unvettable images of themselves, rather than an America where we can find out what they really are like, absorb the knowledge, and make an informed judgment about how they will govern.

You don't want America to deconstruct the spin. You want America to swallow your Kool-Aid. Now scurry along and receive your new talking points to regurgitate.

[Extra Stout]

If Nbadan disavows guilt by association, how will he be able to post?
IOKIYAD.

[Holt's Cat]

IOKIYAD.

This is where he conveniently claims he isn't a D.

[Extra Stout]

This is where he conveniently claims he isn't a D.
IOKIYAAADPR.

(It's OK If You're An Anti-American Dickless "Progressive" Radical).

[smeagol]

.... now that's an Amerika to be proud of...

Are you Greek too?

[smeagol]

You don't seem to get it. If you didn't fall in love with Obama then you obviously have an agenda and hate black people.
Why do all latinos hang from Hillary's nuts?

[Nbadan]

And Dan keeps on scrambling... he still doesn't really know how to get his arms around the "maybe Obama is a politican after all" revelation... the left-wing blogs haven't developed their talking points for it yet... dan hasn't been instructed what to think

Attacking the messenger cause you can't debate logically is weak...






:sleep

[Extra Stout]

Attacking the messenger cause you can't debate logically is weak...

:sleep

Get ready for the bitchslap, here it comes, here it comes...


But of course they're right that it'll hurt him electorally because Obama's going to have a hard time explaining that I take to be the truth, namely that his relationship with Trinity has been a bit cynical from the beginning. After all, before Obama was a half-black guy running in a mostly white country he was a half-white guy running in a mostly black neighborhood. At that time, associating with a very large, influential, local church with black nationalist overtones was a clear political asset (it's also clear in his book that it made him, personally, feel "blacker" to belong to a slightly kitschy black church). Since emerging onto a larger stage, it's been the reverse and Obama's consistently sought to distance himself from Wright, disinviting him from his campaign's launch, analogizing him to a crazy uncle who you love but don't listen to, etc. The closest analogy would probably be to Hillary Clinton's inconsistent accounting of where she's from (bragging about midwestern roots when trying to win in Iowa, promptly forgetting those roots when explaining away a loss in Illinois, developing a sporadic affection for New York sports teams) -- banal, mildly cynical shifts of association as context changes.

OH! DAMN!

[Yonivore]

OH! DAMN!
Matthew Yglesias? Isn't he hanging from Hillary's nuts with the rest of his Latino compadres?

[Extra Stout]

Matthew Yglesias? Isn't he hanging from Hillary's nuts with the rest of his Latino compadres?
I think he's actually a Jew of Spanish lineage.

OMG THAT'S EVEN WORSE!!!! IT'S THE JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOZ!!!!

[Yonivore]

I think he's actually a Jew of Spanish lineage.

OMG THAT'S EVEN WORSE!!!! IT'S THE JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOZ!!!!
:lmao He's probably hanging from Hillary's Matzo Balls then.

[JoeChalupa]

Tomorrow will be Obama's most important speech of his political career. For me it won't be a turning point since I believe him when he says he doesn't agree with the statements of Rev. Wright. But when you support someone, as I do Obama, you tend to give them the benefit of the doubt.
But when the doubts of many have raised, over and over and over again on FoxNews, it is much harder to change to those doubts.
Just like Romney gave an excellent speech about religion it was not enough to convince those that have doubts about the Mormon faith.
I can only hope and pray for Obama and the rest if up to the American people. I live in the real word and realize that Senator Obama's presidential campaign may just be on the down slide and that is a fact that I cannot deny.
On one hand I have this feeling that Yes, the American people will see the man Obama truly is.
On the other hand I've seen how politcs can turn in an instant and recovering can almost be impossible. But I'm keeping my fingers crossed on both hands that they can come together and form a bond that is not left or right but as one.

And I will take all the bashing from you all can dish out as it is well deserved considering the evidence. But I also feel that the facts don't always tell the entire story.

[JoeChalupa]

I find it hard to believe this Pastor/Minister hasn't said such controversial things in the past when Obama boy was in attendance, therefore if he did and continued to attend this fuckers services then I would have a big problem. In other words Fuck You Hussein Obama!

Amazing how many people still fill the pews at Hagee's services. Granted John Boy wasn't there but he's heard Hagee's words none the less and so have many members of Hagee's church and they are still there.

[JoeChalupa]

Joe, you've got a lot to learn about McCain...there's a reason why he's been swiftboated by Republicans more often than Monica Lewingski...they know that after eight years of Dubya, their chances of winning with a McCain/Jesus ticket in 08' would be slim to none...so give the old man his run...watch him lose, hope that the 'other' Republican running as a Demo wins, Hitlary, and then maybe crazy mcCain will go away

I know enough about McCain to know he is a man of honor and integrity. His actions regarding this issue is solid proof of that.
And at this point, in all honesty, I see McCain kicking democratic ass in November. He is looking so Presidential right now.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Why do all latinos hang from Hillary's nuts?


Because her nuts are bigger than anyone who hails from Argentina..Ole!

[Yonivore]

Tomorrow will be Obama's most important speech of his political career. For me it won't be a turning point since I believe him when he says he doesn't agree with the statements of Rev. Wright. But when you support someone, as I do Obama, you tend to give them the benefit of the doubt.
But when the doubts of many have raised, over and over and over again on FoxNews, it is much harder to change to those doubts.
Just like Romney gave an excellent speech about religion it was not enough to convince those that have doubts about the Mormon faith.
I can only hope and pray for Obama and the rest if up to the American people. I live in the real word and realize that Senator Obama's presidential campaign may just be on the down slide and that is a fact that I cannot deny.
On one hand I have this feeling that Yes, the American people will see the man Obama truly is.
On the other hand I've seen how politcs can turn in an instant and recovering can almost be impossible. But I'm keeping my fingers crossed on both hands that they can come together and form a bond that is not left or right but as one.

And I will take all the bashing from you all can dish out as it is well deserved considering the evidence. But I also feel that the facts don't always tell the entire story.
Rezko's around the corner. Obama revealed on Friday that Rezko and he were more involved than previous admitted. It's just that Rev. "I-hate-white-people" Wright ate the news cycle.

[JoeChalupa]

Rezko's around the corner. Obama revealed on Friday that Rezko and he were more involved than previous admitted. It's just that Rev. "I-hate-white-people" Wright ate the news cycle.

Yeah, I've heard about that too. But nothing has been proven he did anything illegal. The Chicago media has been investigating it for almost 2 years now. But I could be wrong.

[JoeChalupa]

And keep in mind that at no time, that I am aware of, has Obama ever made any type of statement or remarks such as Rev. Wright's. And his message since his 2004 break out speech has always been about unity.

[Yonivore]

And keep in mind that at no time, that I am aware of, has Obama ever made any type of statement or remarks such as Rev. Wright's. And his message since his 2004 break out speech has always been about unity.
Of course, that couldn't be because he had political aspirations.

[Yonivore]

Yeah, I've heard about that too. But nothing has been proven he did anything illegal. The Chicago media has been investigating it for almost 2 years now. But I could be wrong.
You hang on, Joe. I'm hopeful for you... :lmao

You really think voters are going to care if it's been proven? This is the court of public opinion not a court of law.

[JoeChalupa]

Of course, that couldn't be because he had political aspirations.

It could also be that he truly feels that way. I may dislike Bush and McCain's political beliefs but I don't question that they truly believe they are doing what they feel is best for the country.
Of course he had political aspirations. Don't they all?

[JoeChalupa]

You hang on, Joe. I'm hopeful for you... :lmao

You really think voters are going to care if it's been proven? This is the court of public opinion not a court of law.

That is a correct statement. And yes, I am hopeful that there are better days to come for us all.

[Yonivore]

That is a correct statement. And yes, I am hopeful that there are better days to come for us all.
Looks like the AP is on your side, Joe.

The AP Style Guide on Defending Barack Obama (http://newsbusters.org/blogs/terry-trippany/2008/03/15/ap-style-guide-defending-barack-obama)

That's right, the Associated Press steps up for Obama.

[George Gervin's Afro]

You hang on, Joe. I'm hopeful for you... :lmao

You really think voters are going to care if it's been proven? This is the court of public opinion not a court of law.




what I mean't to say was this is right of the GOP playbook..

see the smear vets...

[Mr. Peabody]

Rezko's around the corner. Obama revealed on Friday that Rezko and he were more involved than previous admitted. It's just that Rev. "I-hate-white-people" Wright ate the news cycle.

He revealed it on Friday during a 90 minute sit down with Chicago Tribune journalists who asked anything and everything of Obama regarding the Rezko situation.


chicagotribune.com
Editorials
Obama's Rezko narrative

March 16, 2008

U.S. Sen. Barack Obama waited 16 months to attempt the exorcism. But when he finally sat down with the Tribune editorial board Friday, Obama offered a lengthy and, to us, plausible explanation for the presence of now-indicted businessman Tony Rezko in his personal and political lives.

The most remarkable facet of Obama's 92-minute discussion was that, at the outset, he pledged to answer every question the three dozen Tribune journalists crammed into the room would put to him. And he did.

Along the way he confronted the starkest innuendo that has dogged him and his campaign for the presidency: the suggestion that the purchase of an adjacent lot by Rezko's wife subtly subsidized the Obamas' purchase of their home on Chicago's South Side. "This notion that somehow I got a discount and Rezko overpaid is simply not true ... simply, factually, incorrect," Obama said Friday, adding that he didn't need any intervention from Rezko to grease the purchase of the house.

Having said that, Obama also admitted, "You can back up and say the red light should have gone off."

No argument here. The red light would have warned Obama that Rezko might want to own property adjoining his in order to tighten their relationship -- or that Rezko might be prepping to ask Obama for a favor at some later date. Instead, Obama now acknowledges that he was drawing too close to a campaign contributor and political player whose name was cropping up in articles about the Illinois culture of political sleaze.

***

Obama said he hadn't suspected Rezko of wrongdoing, or of scheming to exploit their friendship: They were friends who occasionally socialized; Rezko had been a loyal supporter; and, Obama says, Rezko had never asked him for anything in the many years they'd known one another. Rezko always had been above board with him, Obama explained, so "my instinct was to believe him" when Rezko said the talk of illicit dealings on his part was untrue.

For those who follow news about Obama's Rezko connection in granular detail: Obama said Friday that his "smaller lapse of judgment" was inviting Rezko to help him evaluate the house before he purchased it. Obama insists, though, that the Rezkos' simultaneous purchase of the abutting lot was entirely independent of his house purchase -- not a choreography of transactions, but a blur of dealings among the sellers' and buyers' real estate brokers and attorneys.

Obama's "bigger lapse of judgment," he said, came later when he bought a strip of the Rezko lot to expand his own yard. That embroiled the two men in negotiations over fencing and other issues at a time when Rezko was under increasing suspicion. That involvement with Rezko in the land deal, Obama said Friday, was the "boneheaded move" to which he's previously confessed. "In retrospect," he said Friday, "this was an error."

To be precise about that: Obama contends that all of his Rezko-related transactions were lawful and above reproach, but he didn't keep a prudent distance from Rezko.

***

So what really happened Friday when Obama detailed his Obama connection? And will his attempt to exorcise Rezko keep U.S. Sen. Hillary Clinton's campaign from exploiting that connection?

Obama fleshed out his relationship with Rezko -- including the disclosure that Rezko raised as much as $250,000 for the first three offices Obama sought. But Obama's explanation was less a font of new data or an act of contrition than the addition of nuance and motive to a long-mysterious relationship.

We fully expect the Clinton campaign, given its current desperation, to do whatever it must in order to keep the Rezko tin can tied to Obama's bumper.

When we endorsed Obama for the Democratic presidential nomination Jan. 27, we said we had formed our opinions of him during 12 years of scrutiny. We concluded that the professional judgment and personal decency with which he has managed himself and his ambition distinguish him.

Nothing Obama said in our editorial board room Friday diminishes that verdict.

***

We said in that same editorial that Obama had been too self-exculpatory in explaining away his ties to Tony Rezko. And we've been saying since Nov. 3, 2006 -- shortly after the Tribune broke the story of Obama's house purchase -- that Obama needed to fully explain his Rezko connection. He also needed to realize how susceptible he had been to someone who wanted a piece of him -- and how his skill at recognizing that covetousness needed to rise to the same stature as his popular appeal.

Friday's session evidently fulfills both obligations. Might we all be surprised by some future disclosure? Obama's critics have waited 16 months for some new and cataclysmic Rezko moment to implicate and doom Obama. It hasn't happened.

Obama said Friday that voters who don't know what to make of his Rezko connection should, in the wake of his discussion with the Tribune, "see somebody who is not engaged in any wrongdoing ... and who they can trust." Yes, he said, he comes from Chicago. But he has risen in this corrupt Illinois environment without getting entangled in it.

Obama tries to live by "high ethical standards," he said. Although "that doesn't excuse the mistake I made here."

Obama should have had Friday's discussion 16 months ago. Asked why he didn't, he spoke of learning, uncomfortably, what it's like to live in a fishbowl. That made him perhaps too eager to protect personal information -- too eager to "control the narrative."

Less protection, less control, would have meant less hassle for his campaign. That said, Barack Obama now has spoken about his ties to Tony Rezko in uncommon detail. That's a standard for candor by which other presidential candidates facing serious inquiries now can be judged.

[Holt's Cat]

So Obama attended a 'black church' and had a sleazeball as one of his donors.

The other Democratic candidate would never do either, that's for certain.

Again, the Fed is invoking rules not used since the Depression to stave off a meltdown of the US financial system, the US is still stuck in Iraq, and this is what constitutes important political discussion?

[jochhejaam]

And keep in mind that at no time, that I am aware of, has Obama ever made any type of statement or remarks such as Rev. Wright's. And his message since his 2004 break out speech has always been about unity.
And therein lies the problem. Obama is running, in part, on the platform of being the Great Unifier, while simultaneously (for 20 years) sitting dutifully under his beloved Pastor who is the Great Divider. <Houston, we have a problem!>

They're philosophies are as different as night and day and no "major speech on race", regardless of how poetic or oratorically aesthetic it may be, will bring reconciliation to that fact.



This is a non-issue to the blind followers of Obama and for those that are willfully ignorant. Those that fall into this category would have you believe that Obama's debacle prevents discussion about solutions to the problems facing our Country. :dizzy
While it is indeed a major distraction for Obama, rest assured that the Country's efforts to right itself from her problems are ongoing, and are not similary distracted because of one man's problems.

[Yonivore]

what I mean't to say was this is right of the GOP playbook..

see the smear vets...
You say that as if the actions by the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth were somehow dishonest or dishonorable.

[Yonivore]

He revealed it on Friday during a 90 minute sit down with Chicago Tribune journalists who asked anything and everything of Obama regarding the Rezko situation.
In the news business, Friday is "bury-it" day. All politicians release hurtful information on Friday with the hope it will a) be ignored as we all go about our merry Friday evening ways, b) will be swallowed by some other news event, or c) be forgotten by Monday.

Well, it wasn't exactly a) ignored and, unfortunately for Obama, it was b) swallowed by a negative news event that also involved him, but maybe he'll luck out and c) it was forgotten by Monday.

Incidentally, if you think bringing in 1,000 journalists from a single newspaper, from your hometown, is somehow akin to opening up the kitchen cabinets for all journalists, you're delusional.

[Yonivore]

joe chalupa is about to go semperfi on yoni's chickenhawk ass
Oh gosh!

[peewee's lovechild]

Because her nuts are bigger than anyone who hails from Argentina..Ole!

:lol :lol :lol

[peewee's lovechild]

Yeah, I've heard about that too. But nothing has been proven he did anything illegal. The Chicago media has been investigating it for almost 2 years now. But I could be wrong.

The fact that he's been investigated for two years implies that he may very well have done something illegal.

And, if he's been investigated for two years, why didn't Obama catch this?

[peewee's lovechild]

And keep in mind that at no time, that I am aware of, has Obama ever made any type of statement or remarks such as Rev. Wright's. And his message since his 2004 break out speech has always been about unity.

And yet, he's attended a church for over two decades that preaches about disunity.

If he's all about unity, as he swears he is, why has he stayed in a church where the minister spews hatred towards another race?

[peewee's lovechild]

It could also be that he truly feels that way. I may dislike Bush and McCain's political beliefs but I don't question that they truly believe they are doing what they feel is best for the country.
Of course he had political aspirations. Don't they all?


But, he's not an old school politician!!!

He promised!!!

[smeagol]

Pewee and GGA love Hillary but hate Obama. If Obama wins, they will vote McCain :fuckingrolleyeyes

Some Dems are really stupid . . .

[peewee's lovechild]

Pewee and GGA love Hillary but hate Obama. If Obama wins, they will vote McCain :fuckingrolleyeyes

Some Dems are really stupid . . .

Argentinans fuck cows and shove soccer balls up thier asses.

But, anyway, if Obama wins . . . I won't be voting.
I can't in good conscience vote for McCain and I don't believe in Obama.

[smeagol]

if Obama wins . . . I won't be voting. I can't in good conscience vote for McCain and I don't believe in Obama.


You are too stupid to see that if you don't go to vote, you're helping the Republicans :lol



Argentinans fuck cows and shove soccer balls up thier asses.

On second thought, somebody this immature should not be allowed to vote.

Maybe you are not even old enough to vote . . . which would explain many of your posts.

[peewee's lovechild]

You are too stupid to see that if you don't go to vote, you're helping the Republicans :lol



You're too stupid to understand that I wouldn't care either way.

I'm not a "vote blindly for one party" type of person. If you're that way, then you're part of the problem.

I'm a truly independent voter.

I choose to back Hillary Clinton because I believe in her.

If I believed in McCain, I would back him, same goes with Obama.

If Obama wins the Dem nomination, I honestly won't care who takes the Presidency. I don't believe in either one.

As for your "helping Republicans" comment:

I'm hurt.

Really.

[smeagol]

If Obama wins the Dem nomination, I honestly won't care who takes the Presidency. I don't believe in either one.

Why can't you vote in good conscience for McCain?

I thought you had nor problems with the Republicans.

And McCain is probably the most "Democrat-like" Republican who will run for the Presidency in years . . .

[peewee's lovechild]

Why can't you vote in good conscience for McCain?

I thought you had nor problems with the Republicans.

And McCain is probably the most "Democrat-like" Republican who will run for the Presidency in years . . .

Because he want's to continue with the Iraq occupancy.
He sees no end to it.

And, he'll likely push for a confilict with Iran.

[smeagol]

Because he want's to continue with the Iraq occupancy.
He sees no end to it.

And, he'll likely push for a confilict with Iran.

That is what almost every Republiucan, with the exception of Ron Paul, wants to do.

[JoeChalupa]

I respect Peewee's and GGA's support of Hillary. I just happen to support Obama and I believe his words more than I do Hillary's. That is just me but noway I'm not voting in November. Staying home, IMO, because your candidate didn't get the nomination is not the answer.

BARACK ON!!

[peewee's lovechild]

That is what almost every Republiucan, with the exception of Ron Paul, wants to do.

Which would be the reason why I wouldn't vote for McCain.

[JoeChalupa]

The fact that he's been investigated for two years implies that he may very well have done something illegal.

And, if he's been investigated for two years, why didn't Obama catch this?

Innocent until proven guilty is still the law of the land. You'd think that after two years of investigations they would have already charged him with a crime.

[peewee's lovechild]

Innocent until proven guilty is still the law of the land. You'd think that after two years of investigations they would have already charged him with a crime.

They took more than that to bring a RICO case against John Gotti.

The same can be said about Al Capone and several others.

However, I do agree with the innocent until proven guilty.

But, try telling that to Barry Bonds, Roger Clements, etc.

[JoeChalupa]

They took more than that to bring a RICO case against John Gotti.

The same can be said about Al Capone and several others.

However, I do agree with the innocent until proven guilty.

But, try telling that to Barry Bonds, Roger Clements, etc.

I agree. As yonivore said it matters more in the court of public opinion.

Obama did a good job today but it will not undo any of the damage that has already been done. He just needs to get out and talk to the people and let the chips fall where they may.

[JoeChalupa]

And therein lies the problem. Obama is running, in part, on the platform of being the Great Unifier, while simultaneously (for 20 years) sitting dutifully under his beloved Pastor who is the Great Divider. <Houston, we have a problem!>

They're philosophies are as different as night and day and no "major speech on race", regardless of how poetic or oratorically aesthetic it may be, will bring reconciliation to that fact.



This is a non-issue to the blind followers of Obama and for those that are willfully ignorant. Those that fall into this category would have you believe that Obama's debacle prevents discussion about solutions to the problems facing our Country. :dizzy
While it is indeed a major distraction for Obama, rest assured that the Country's efforts to right itself from her problems are ongoing, and are not similary distracted because of one man's problems.

Exactly, their philosophies ARE different. I think those who are making this more of an issue than it should be are also showing ignorance.
As Bill O'Reilley stated there is NO evidence of Obama making such stupid statements like Wright has and I believe him.

[word]

Though the democratic primary has been interesting it's over and so is the general election. It will be close in the popular vote but a landslide for McCain in the electoral college. Hillary's base is older white female voters. 10% of those defect and it's disaster for Obama in places like California, Florida, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin...hell pretty much everywhere but he loses the big hitters in the EC and it's over. I suspect that is just what is going to happen. It's going to look like 1988. Close popular vote, EC blowout. If McCain takes JC Watts as a VP, he'll sick him on Obama and keep him on the ropes. The only hope for the Dems is an Obama/Clinton ticket and I just don't think she'll go for it. If she does, landslide for Obama. Either way, this election is in the hands of middle aged white females.

Just my two cents

[peewee's lovechild]

Though the democratic primary has been interesting it's over and so is the general election. It will be close in the popular vote but a landslide for McCain in the electoral college. Hillary's base is older white female voters. 10% of those defect and it's disaster for Obama in places like California, Florida, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin...hell pretty much everywhere but he loses the big hitters in the EC and it's over. I suspect that is just what is going to happen. It's going to look like 1988. Close popular vote, EC blowout. If McCain takes JC Watts as a VP, he'll sick him on Obama and keep him on the ropes. The only hope for the Dems is an Obama/Clinton ticket and I just don't think she'll go for it. If she does, landslide for Obama. Either way, this election is in the hands of middle aged white females.

Just my two cents

Soccer Grannies?