Buck Harvey: Spurs aren't special when Manu isn't

[greens]

Buck Harvey: Spurs aren't special when Manu isn't
http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/columnists/bharvey/stories/MYSA031808.01D.COL.BKNharvey.spurs.3e8c9cf.html

Web Posted: 03/18/2008 12:32 AM CDT


San Antonio Express-News

Robert Horry says he should have called timeout, but that's debatable. He got a decent look at the end, and besides, it was time for someone else to come up with a miracle this season.

The Spurs have spent too much of this season waiting for Manu Ginobili to make one.

It was someone else's turn.

The latest drop in the standings would normally fit into Gregg Popovich's recent theme. He has said he is less than disappointed by this recent slump because he's seen some good signs, and he says some losses aren't as bad as they seem.

Losing a close one to the best-in-the-league Celtics, on St. Patrick's Day no less, can't be all bad, right?

But then there's the blown 22-point lead, as well as the final play. Then, Tony Parker had pulled the Spurs within two points when Kevin Garnett threw a foolish pass.

Bruce Bowen intercepted it, and he, not Horry, should have been the one to call time. That would have given the Spurs the maximum amount of time, about three seconds, to run a play.

But Bowen admitted he didn't know the Spurs had a timeout left, and the replay suggests he wasn't alone. Not one Spur — not even Popovich — had his hands in the air signaling for one.

With that the Spurs reached their longest losing streak in the regular season in over seven years, and afterward Popovich skipped the spin. He called this loss "tough."

It was tough because the Spurs had started out as if they were reclaiming what they were. Ginobili went back to the bench to be the sixth man, and Damon Stoudamire went there to stay. Fab Oberto came back as a starter and Tim Duncan seemed comfortable from the start. He began with the game's first two baskets.

Parker sprinted out, too. And when Ginobili checked in, giving the Spurs the lift from the bench they haven't had, the Spurs led 35-13.

But the same Celtics who beat the Spurs earlier in the season without Garnett found a way this time without Ray Allen. Give Doc Rivers and his group everything on this night; they are on pace for about 67 wins for a reason.

They might be even better now with Sam Cassell. He mixed his jerky style with the blazing speed of the starting point guard, Rajon Rondo, and the two combined for 37 points.

But matching them was the one Spur who, just two weeks ago, was starting to show up on some MVP lists. More this season than ever, the Spurs have been special only when Ginobili has been.

He put together back-to-back 37-point games when Duncan was injured to beat both Utah and Dallas, and he saved the rodeo road trip with 34 in Toronto, 46 in Cleveland and 44 in Minnesota. By the time he was putting 30 points and a dozen assists on the Hornets, the Spurs were climbing to the top of the West.

As he's worn down, so have the Spurs. He missed at the end in Phoenix, and he averaged only 10 points in New Orleans and Detroit. This losing streak is a sign the Spurs have begun to rely on him, for the first time, too much.

Monday summed that up. Duncan, after those two first scores, had only one more basket until the fourth quarter. Parker stopped attacking, and Michael Finley ended with two points.

That left Ginobili with the load. He went for 32 points while also creating for others, and more telling was when he sat.

Such as at the start of the third quarter — when the Spurs lost a 10-point halftime lead. By the time he checked in for Finley, the Celtics led by one.

As for Finley: He's heading the way of Stoudamire unless he finds himself.

Ginobili broke Boston's momentum by banking in a leaning one-hander late in the game. But he also lost a drive with a minute left, and he badly missed a 3-pointer.

Still, the Spurs were down by four points with 11 seconds left when Ginobili drove. He took a foul and flipped up a shot, and the basketball rolled on the rim, tapped off the backboard and rolled on the rim again. Then slid off.

Ginobili couldn't come up with the miracle. For the Spurs this season, that's not good enough.


end of the article

[gospursgojas]

More and more evidence that the Spurs have more of a rotation/lineup problem than a personel problem.

[smeagol]

But matching them was the one Spur who, just two weeks ago, was starting to show up on some MVP lists. More this season than ever, the Spurs have been special only when Ginobili has been.

He put together back-to-back 37-point games when Duncan was injured to beat both Utah and Dallas, and he saved the rodeo road trip with 34 in Toronto, 46 in Cleveland and 44 in Minnesota. By the time he was putting 30 points and a dozen assists on the Hornets, the Spurs were climbing to the top of the West.

As he's worn down, so have the Spurs. He missed at the end in Phoenix, and he averaged only 10 points in New Orleans and Detroit. This losing streak is a sign the Spurs have begun to rely on him, for the first time, too much.

Monday summed that up. Duncan, after those two first scores, had only one more basket until the fourth quarter. Parker stopped attacking, and Michael Finley ended with two points.

That left Ginobili with the load. He went for 32 points while also creating for others, and more telling was when he sat.

Such as at the start of the third quarter — when the Spurs lost a 10-point halftime lead. By the time he checked in for Finley, the Celtics led by one.

The funny thing is that I keep hearing from NBA fans, some of which are Spurs fans, that Manu cannot carry an NBA team, that Manu in a another team would be lottery bound, that the reason why Manu is so good is Duncan, blah, blah, blah . . .

[Bruno]

What a piece of crap.
Harvey throws the whole team under the bus just to pimp Manu. :lol
He is on his way to be a life member of the CoM.

[WalterBenitez]

I see everything starts and ends with Manu's nose!

[WalterBenitez]

What a piece of crap.
Harvey throws the whole team under the bus just to pimp Manu. :lol
He is on his way to be a life member of the CoM.


Can only throw Miky :D?

[twincam]

Manu is the only Spur with the heart. Manu plays every game as if it was his very last, with heart! Where is your heart, Spurs?

48 min...not 12 min.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

If Pop had started the third with Manu's hot hand :bang

that seriously would have made all the difference in maintaining the lead.

[L.I.T]

Manu is the only Spur with the heart. Manu plays every game as if it was his very last, with heart! Where is your heart, Spurs?

48 min...not 12 min.

WTF?

Did you just call out Tim Duncan, Tony Parker and Bruce Bowen for playing without heart?

[vanvannen]

Stupid article. I actually think the opposite. As strange as it may sound, I think Gino's heroics are hurting the team's ball movement and taking away the confidence of other players. (Michael Finley anyone?)
This is a TEAM game, there is no way only one player can make it all the way. Even MJ needed key contributions from Pippen, Rodman, Kerr, etc.

[Manu-of-steel]

Stupid article. I actually think the opposite. As strange as it may sound, I think Gino's heroics are hurting the team's ball movement and taking away the confidence of other players. (Michael Finley anyone?)
This is a TEAM game, there is no way only one player can make it all the way. Even MJ needed key contributions from Pippen, Rodman, Kerr, etc.
Manu's heroics are saving, not hurting the spurs. have you seen the game? Finley started and manu came off the bench. But what did Finley contribute while he's there on the court? Don't tell me manu is contesting every shot attempt of finley. :nope

[smeagol]

Stupid article. I actually think the opposite. As strange as it may sound, I think Gino's heroics are hurting the team's ball movement and taking away the confidence of other players. (Michael Finley anyone?)
This is a TEAM game, there is no way only one player can make it all the way. Even MJ needed key contributions from Pippen, Rodman, Kerr, etc.

Finley's slump is Manu's fault? :lol :lol :lol

[cheguevara]

Stupid article. I actually think the opposite. As strange as it may sound, I think Gino's heroics are hurting the team's ball movement and taking away the confidence of other players. (Michael Finley anyone?)
This is a TEAM game, there is no way only one player can make it all the way. Even MJ needed key contributions from Pippen, Rodman, Kerr, etc.

that would be true if when manu sits down, the team would play decently. But the fact is when Manu is sitting down, Spurs play like utter shit.

[InK]

Ditching Manu for the poor play of others is absurd. Get real.

This article however is seriouslly retarded.

[vanvannen]

I'm not saying Finley's slump is Manu's fault. I'm just saying these team can't win with Manu posting 40 and the rest playing like crap. I like it better when Manu puts up 20 and 8 assists than his 32 and 2 assists of list night.

[Mr. Body]

Finley could easily play like this... five years ago.

Simple, Manu has to play like this in order to win. If he can't, and he can't always, the team has nobody else. Duncan and Parker can't score in bunches.

[DarrinS]

People are putting down the article, but there's a lot of truth to it.

[carina_gino20]

I'm not saying Finley's slump is Manu's fault. I'm just saying these team can't win with Manu posting 40 and the rest playing like crap. I like it better when Manu puts up 20 and 8 assists than his 32 and 2 assists of list night.

It's not like he isn't trying to distribute. He's said so many times that he doesn't care about his stats. He just wants to do whatever helps them to win. But more often than not this year, the offense has been stagnant and THEN, Manu has to do more work. What do you do when almost everyone else is just sucking so badly? It's a tough line for him to walk. And because of his competitive nature, if he sees them in a slump, he will really do his best to get them out of it. To put this on Manu is just... :wtf

[cheguevara]

I'm not saying Finley's slump is Manu's fault. I'm just saying these team can't win with Manu posting 40 and the rest playing like crap. I like it better when Manu puts up 20 and 8 assists than his 32 and 2 assists of list night.


Manu is posting 40 because NONONE else is stepping up and scoring. WOuld you rather Manu post 20 and we get blown out??

the only problem I have with Manu is he is falling in love too much with the 3pt shot. that's it.

[vanvannen]

Ok, my bad. Manu is freaking Jesus on a Spurs jersey. :rolleyes

[smeagol]

I'm not saying Finley's slump is Manu's fault. I'm just saying these team can't win with Manu posting 40 and the rest playing like crap. I like it better when Manu puts up 20 and 8 assists than his 32 and 2 assists of list night.

You said something defferent before.

And Manu is not Jesus (The Son), he is God (The Father)

[smeagol]

Ok, my bad. Manu is freaking Jesus on a Spurs jersey. :rolleyes

Blaming the SPurs poor play on Manu does not seem to be fair.

[Martin R]

I see everything starts and ends with Manu's nose!

...which is a pretty interesting gap....

[2Cleva]

But I thought Manu is almost good as Kobe?

:lol

Bottom line though - Manu is San Antonio's finisher. Regardless of his stats he has to be ready to control the end game for SA to beat elite teams. If he's worn out now, SA needs to rest him to get his second wind for the playoffs.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Ok, my bad. Manu is freaking Jesus on a Spurs jersey. :rolleyes
oh I see, people call you out for making a stupid statement, and immediately you pull out the "homer" card... that's great. It couldn't have been that you are wrong, no.

To say that Manu's scoring is what hinders the Spurs offense is about as idiotic a statement as one can make.

[ploto]

Manu is trying to do too much. Seriously. And then when Parker gets his chance, he tries to do too much. The only person not trying to do too much is Tim Duncan, but he is not doing enough.

[2Cleva]

I don't think its Manu's scoring. Its his dual playmaking/scoring role. A guy like that is ultra-valuable and makes it so easy on everyone else. Easy to see how even a vet team like SA relaxes and lets Manu do it.

[Gino]

Manu is by far the most valuable Spurs. No offense to Duncan, but Ginobili is the key to the Spurs success.

Btw - What ever happened to Tony Parker? Remember at the beginning of the year when everyone was legitimately arguing that he was the second best point guard in the league?

What a dissapointing season he's had.

[2Cleva]

Duncan is the most valuable. He's that rock that allows Manu to do what he does.

[Gino]

Duncan is the most valuable. He's that rock that allows Manu to do what he does.


Believe what you want....I think Tim Duncan is starting to beomce a candidate for the Ewing Theory.

[carina_gino20]

Ok, my bad. Manu is freaking Jesus on a Spurs jersey. :rolleyes

Great. Just because we don't agree that Manu is the reason for the stagnant offense, we're freaking homers. Fact is, he sometimes does too much because he has to. When almost everyone else is sucking, what choice does he have? And as someone has pointed out in another thread, the Big Three only played 19 minutes together. A lot of Manu's points came when he had to play with the scrubs. Then, do you really want anyone else to shoot and clank when you've got Manu on the floor?

Manu's not perfect. One man can't just win this game. But to somehow imply that the guy who kept it close in the end botched the offense is just unbelievable.

[sassystriker]

I'm not saying Finley's slump is Manu's fault. I'm just saying these team can't win with Manu posting 40 and the rest playing like crap. I like it better when Manu puts up 20 and 8 assists than his 32 and 2 assists of list night.

Well, that's just the problem, everyone except Manu is playing like crap. Manu posting 32 and 2 is like a treasure with how this team is playing. We'd be way down if he just didn't step up. Besides, can somebody name anyone who is able to contribute enough to help us win? I mean, when he scored really big like the 46 and 44, every single point is counted in our win. So I'm kinda not complaining coz it usually ends up good, this time, it just fell a bit short.

As for the assists, I wouldn't be complaining bout that also coz Manu doesn't have complete control of that. Even if he did dish the ball out to an open guy and the shot isn't falling, he can't do anything about that. I bet if he can control that, his assists would be half his points already. :spin

I WANT BALL MOVEMENT!!

[sassystriker]

Duncan is the most valuable. He's that rock that allows Manu to do what he does.


If you'd say that about Tony, I'd definitely agree. Tony just isn't that effective without Timmy. But Manu?! Nah-ah. Manu is just too good to depend his game to someone else. I mean, Timmy is good and he makes everybody's job (including Manu's) easier with all that attention he is getting but i'd say Manu can actually really play without Timmy, just remember the 37 and wins he posted while TD was out.

[2Cleva]

If you'd say that about Tony, I'd definitely agree. Tony just isn't that effective without Timmy. But Manu?! Nah-ah. Manu is just too good to depend his game to someone else. I mean, Timmy is good and he makes everybody's job (including Manu's) easier with all that attention he is getting but i'd say Manu can actually really play without Timmy, just remember the 37 and wins he posted while TD was out.

Over a small period of time, there are probably 30-40 NBA players who can carry a team.

But for the long haul - you need that rock if you want to be part of the upper echelon where SA is. Manu, as good as he is, isn't that rock that consistently makes an impact, regardless of the opposition.

[boutons_]

Spurs would have a much worse record, in the lottery NOW?, if Manu hadn't single-handedly taken over to save or outright win maybe 10 games, even before his string of 30+ pt games, as the rest of the Spurs stumbled around in a fog of uninspired mediocrity.

"Spurs aren't special when Manu isn't" will get no argument from me.

As Pop said so eloquently: "Because he's Manu Ginobili."

[cheguevara]

without manu Spurs would be in about 12th place in West

[jag]

I'm kinda getting tired of seeing manu and Tony putting up good numbers and Tim ending games with "10pt 8reb" stats. The rest can be argued for days.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Over a small period of time, there are probably 30-40 NBA players who can carry a team.

But for the long haul - you need that rock if you want to be part of the upper echelon where SA is. Manu, as good as he is, isn't that rock that consistently makes an impact, regardless of the opposition.
I'd say this is a reasonable statement. Yeah, pretty accurate

[sassystriker]

Over a small period of time, there are probably 30-40 NBA players who can carry a team.

But for the long haul - you need that rock if you want to be part of the upper echelon where SA is. Manu, as good as he is, isn't that rock that consistently makes an impact, regardless of the opposition.

Yeah, if you'd put it that way. Tim Duncan is Tim Duncan. He is that. He's already established as the "guy" of San Antonio. Spurs is basically his team. Of course, he is kinda the base of it all for the Spurs. I was simply implying that Manu can play great with or without TD. But I also think Manu creates impact when he plays, some coaches and commentators once said that everytime Manu plays, he never forgets to leave his imprints.

[bdictjames]

Spurs wouldn't have won all these championships without Tim Duncan.

Put Tim out of the Spurs, and you're real lucky if this San Antonio team is on 8th seed. Post players and defenders are very rare to find.

Spurs win against Chicago on Thursday. Book it. If they don't I dont post till the playoffs.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

I'm not saying Finley's slump is Manu's fault. I'm just saying these team can't win with Manu posting 40 and the rest playing like crap. I like it better when Manu puts up 20 and 8 assists than his 32 and 2 assists of list night.
It's not like Manu hasn't had high scoring games with 8 assists as well.

Usually when Manu gets hot, he also involves his teammates and the defenses key on him opening up the other guys. I saw a lot of missed threes off of Manu's passes, so really Manu's stellar play doesn't play a factor in the team sucking. It's on the scrubs themselves. They just aren't stepping up right now.

[hitmanyr2k]

I'm honestly surprised Ginobili can play as good as he does getting jerked around so much. Just about every game it's something different. You're starting tonight. No you're not starting tonight. You're starting the 3rd qtr. No, you were too hot in the first half, let's sit you on the bench awhile longer and watch Finley suck a bit more. How many star players have an 18 point first half and then have to sit on the bench to start the 3rd qtr and watch someone like Michael Finley do absolutely nothing? People say Ginobili does too much but what is he supposed to do when he's sitting on the bench watching his team playing with their heads up their ass blowing a double digit lead? If the Spurs play like they're supposed to I doubt he would even try to force the issue all that much. He never has in the past.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

I'm honestly surprised Ginobili can play as good as he does getting jerked around so much. Just about every game it's something different. You're starting tonight. No you're not starting tonight. You're starting the 3rd qtr. No, you were too hot in the first half, let's sit you on the bench awhile longer and watch Finley suck a bit more. How many star players have an 18 point first half and then have to sit on the bench to start the 3rd qtr and watch someone like Michael Finley do absolutely nothing? People say Ginobili does too much but what is he supposed to do when he's sitting on the bench watching his team playing with their heads up their ass blowing a double digit lead? If the Spurs play like they're supposed to I doubt he would even try to force the issue all that much. He never has in the past.
Good post, he definitely doesn't mind deferring when the rest of the team is playing well.

[sassystriker]

I'm honestly surprised Ginobili can play as good as he does getting jerked around so much. Just about every game it's something different. You're starting tonight. No you're not starting tonight. You're starting the 3rd qtr. No, you were too hot in the first half, let's sit you on the bench awhile longer and watch Finley suck a bit more. How many star players have an 18 point first half and then have to sit on the bench to start the 3rd qtr and watch someone like Michael Finley do absolutely nothing? People say Ginobili does too much but what is he supposed to do when he's sitting on the bench watching his team playing with their heads up their ass blowing a double digit lead? If the Spurs play like they're supposed to I doubt he would even try to force the issue all that much. He never has in the past.


Wow, you got it right! If i have three thumbs, i'd three thumbs-up you now. Good job.

[T Park]

:lol

So Ginobili should have an ego and do an Iverson?

[diego]

the point of the article isnt that the rest of the spurs suck, its that manu has to have a special game for this team to be elite (this season). we need other people to step up, precisely so we don't fall into the situation vanvannen mentioned, where we become a one man(u) team.

the ironic thing is that the first half, regardless of manu's 18pts, was precisely that- loads of assists, baskets/plays from just about everyone... and then we came out like shit in the 3rd.

[smeagol]

Over a small period of time, there are probably 30-40 NBA players who can carry a team.

But for the long haul - you need that rock if you want to be part of the upper echelon where SA is. Manu, as good as he is, isn't that rock that consistently makes an impact, regardless of the opposition.

Under your definition of "rock", not even Kobe is one.

When Kobe has crap around him, Lakers went to the lottery.

[1Parker1]

Manu was pretty special last night....32 points, Spurs still lost.

[smeagol]

I'm honestly surprised Ginobili can play as good as he does getting jerked around so much. Just about every game it's something different. You're starting tonight. No you're not starting tonight. You're starting the 3rd qtr. No, you were too hot in the first half, let's sit you on the bench awhile longer and watch Finley suck a bit more. How many star players have an 18 point first half and then have to sit on the bench to start the 3rd qtr and watch someone like Michael Finley do absolutely nothing? People say Ginobili does too much but what is he supposed to do when he's sitting on the bench watching his team playing with their heads up their ass blowing a double digit lead? If the Spurs play like they're supposed to I doubt he would even try to force the issue all that much. He never has in the past.
:clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap

[smeagol]

Manu was pretty special last night....32 points, Spurs still lost.

I'm pretty sure he gives a damn about his 32 pts.

He would trade them for the W.

[SenorSpur]

Manu is trying to do too much. Seriously. And then when Parker gets his chance, he tries to do too much. The only person not trying to do too much is Tim Duncan, but he is not doing enough.

All very true. The fact the Spurs ARENOT getting any contributions, whatsoever from their bench or other complimentarly players, places a huge burden on the Big Three to perform at all-star levels each night. End result is Manu and Tony are trying to do it all by themselves.

[Spurs Dynasty 21]

Manu was special, but Duncan was shit

[vanvannen]

oh I see, people call you out for making a stupid statement, and immediately you pull out the "homer" card... that's great. It couldn't have been that you are wrong, no.

To say that Manu's scoring is what hinders the Spurs offense is about as idiotic a statement as one can make.

It doesn't matter what my point was. There is no way an argument can be made against Manu without being jumped at by the CoM. It's getting old.
I like Gino as a player, he is actually my favorite Spur. But it's ridiculous how everything he does is right and it's always someone else’s fault.
Next time I check it will be Tony that fouled Dirk back in 2006…

[InK]

It doesn't matter what my point was. There is no way an argument can be made against Manu without being jumped at by the CoM. It's getting old.
I like Gino as a player, he is actually my favorite Spur. But it's ridiculous how everything he does is right and it's always someone else’s fault.
Next time I check it will be Tony that fouled Dirk back in 2006…

You made a silly case of Manu screwing up the offense with going wild. What the heck did you expect?

And no, Manu can screw up games big time, and everyone here knows that. But there is a big difference between saying Manu sometimes messes up, makes bad decisions, etc...and saying Manu ruins our offense. The first is true, and the second is bullshit.

Your a big fan of his, you said, you must like him for a reason. Seems kinda implausible that your favourite Spur to watch is the guy " which destroys our offensive flow", right?

[carina_gino20]

It doesn't matter what my point was. There is no way an argument can be made against Manu without being jumped at by the CoM. It's getting old.
I like Gino as a player, he is actually my favorite Spur. But it's ridiculous how everything he does is right and it's always someone else’s fault.
Next time I check it will be Tony that fouled Dirk back in 2006…

This was your original post:


As strange as it may sound, I think Gino's heroics are hurting the team's ball movement and taking away the confidence of other players. (Michael Finley anyone?)
This is a TEAM game, there is no way only one player can make it all the way. Even MJ needed key contributions from Pippen, Rodman, Kerr, etc.

What did you expect? Most people will admit that Manu can't win it on his own. He needs help and he looks for it. And if the help doesn't come, he has no choice. And how exactly is he taking away the confidence of other players?

And oh, pulling out the CoM card is getting old too.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

So now it's Manu's fault the Spurs are losing if he doesn't go for 40 every night?