Spurs Sinking (ESPN Daily Dime)

[Amuseddaysleeper]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-080318


Disappearing Act In Second Half Continues For Spurs
Hollinger

By John Hollinger
ESPN.com
(Archive)

SAN ANTONIO -- The San Antonio Spurs and Boston Celtics will take a lot away from Monday's showdown.

Like their timeouts, for instance.

Boston's Kevin Garnett inexplicably failed to call one with his team up two and all the options for an inbounds pass covered. But then San Antonio's Bruce Bowen and Robert Horry made the same gaffe after the Spurs stole the ball on KG's inbound attempt, resulting in a rushed 3 at the buzzer by Horry that missed the mark. The Celtics hung on for a 93-91 win.

But let's set the timeout debate aside and look at the bigger picture. One suspects the defending champions have a much larger takeaway from Monday's game, considering it's their fourth straight defeat and the sixth in their last seven contests. It dropped them to 44-23 on the season and into a tie with Dallas for sixth place in the West -- unheard-of territory for this squad so late in the season.

Though it's a hard thought to fathom giving their amazing finishing kicks in recent campaigns, the Spurs' finishing kick is exactly their problem right now. Not just in season terms, but in a game context too.

For the first 13 minutes Monday, they did all the things we expect San Antonio teams to do -- play suffocating defense, execute in the halfcourt, and sprinkle in the occasional open-court dash from Tony Parker or Manu Ginobili.

That put San Antonio up by 22, but they lost steam from there -- most notably during a 15-2 haymaker the Celtics landed to start the third quarter. And it's part of a disturbing recent pattern in which the Spurs play a strong first half but fizzle after the break.

San Antonio scored 38 points after halftime Monday, marking the fourth time in seven games that they had a sub-40-point second half. You can throw the 42-point effort against Denver into the mix too, since the Nuggies' league-leading pace inflates scoring so much. In each of those five games, a lame offensive second half from San Antonio either cost them the lead or blew open a previously close game.

"I'm mad that we were up 22 and blew it,' said Robert Horry. "I know we're playing one of the best teams in the league in the Celtics but there's no excuse. It's tough to maintain big leads like that against good teams but you have to defend home court. You just have to."

Ginobili was brilliant with 32 points, but like his teammates did most of his damage in the first half. He scored 18, including 4-of-5 on 3s, to give the Spurs a 10-point edge at the break. But he was 1-for-4 from the field in the fourth quarter, and had a key turnover late.

"When you play good for 45 minutes and then you miss two shots to almost win it, it doesn't count," said Ginobili. "Down the stretch they made every shot, [and] we couldn't make one.

"We played great for 20 minutes, then we kind of started slowing down and the second half was totally different."

And as the "What's wrong with the Spurs?" questions came up, the general consensus inside San Antonio's locker room was that the problems were mental and not -- as some suspect -- physical deterioration from the team's increasing age.

A few of the diagnoses:

"We're kind of insecure, a little lack of confidence," said Ginobili. "So when things start to go bad we don't have the same response as when things go right."

"This thing lately is in our heads, it's not physical," said Bowen. "Right now we are not completing, not finishing our games the way we would like."

"The simple things got away from us," said Horry. "Taking care of the basketball, simple ball control, and those types of things. And that's just simple basketball."

"Down the stretch I thought execution-wise we made a couple of mistakes that really got us," said Spurs coach Gregg Popovich.

Perhaps it's just a blip that will all be forgotten when the Spurs are having another festive float down the Riverwalk in late June. But while Ginobili said the Spurs remain good enough to repeat as champions, other indicators aren't pointing their way.

For instance, San Antonio only has the seventh-best victory margin in the conference, so you can't just blame their record on bad luck -- and much of that +4.1 margin was built up during its now long-forgotten 17-3 start. Since then they're 27-20 -- good enough for most, but not for defending champions.

The schedule has been cruel during this stretch, which is one reason the Spurs' struggles have seemed so much worse of late. However, it doesn't get much easier the rest of the way. The Spurs still have road games left against Dallas, Orlando, Utah, and the Lakers, plus home dates against Utah, Phoenix and Houston.

"March is horrible, we were talking today that at least since I'm here I don't remember a month like this," said Ginobili.

But these are the Spurs. Since when did the schedule matter? This is the team that's used a brutal Rodeo road trip as the catalyst to their title march on three different occasions.

Because of that, nobody is ready to write them off quite yet, least of all this scribe. But if they can't figure out why their offense keeps suddenly disappearing after halftime, then it might be the Spurs who quickly vanish when the Western Conference playoffs start a month from now.

[timvp]

But if they can't figure out why their offense keeps suddenly disappearing after halftime, then it might be the Spurs who quickly vanish when the Western Conference playoffs start a month from now.Hollinger going far out on that limb.

[whottt]

Awesome...we've never been this far under the radar in a repeat year before :smokin


Thanks for highlighing those quotes...but Manu and Horry both know they are good enough to win a championship, as they've done it before. Not the same...even if they wanted it to be. They can't unknow what they know.

[Supreme_Being]

Jesus. They need a psychiatrist.

[freemeat]

A surprisingly well-written article...although, I don't question so much the fact that Bowen didn't call a timeout.

This team's struggles are all mental, which is a big surprise for me. This is practically the same squad we had last season and it's full of vets.

That being said, the West is stacked and any edge a team can get will be crucial.

The Spurs have that edge -- they're playoff-tested. Having these next two days off should pay HUGE dividends for their stretch run to the playoffs.

[J_Paco]

Since when do they remove sections of the season away from a team's record? The team's gone 27-20 since starting the season 17-3, but they still went 17-3.

That's like taking away Houston's 22-game winning streak and saying their really a .500 basketball team.

If Barry comes back and can contribute, the role-players find their niche, Duncan, Parker & Ginobili find that cohesiveness they had in the beginning of the season and Pop settles on a rotation the team can still find themselves.

The West is too wide-open this season to call our team a "sinking ship."

[Amuseddaysleeper]

In all fairness, the stretch of teams they were playing when they went 17-3 isn't nearly as difficult as the stretch now. Hence, the losing skid.


I'm a little perplexed by these quotes.

I hope they get it together soon, and it's nice to see they're just as concerned as we are, but for a team to have mental lapses this late in the season is puzzling.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I just went here: http://www.nba.com/spurs/schedule/results_2006.html and checked out the Spurs' post-ASB Break records since 2002-03, and the disturbing this is that we are in uncharted territory right now. We have not had a stretch like this post-ASB in the era of SPAM.

The team looks old, slow and tentative, and we've never looked that this late in a season and won a championship. I hate to say it, but Hollinger is on the money and we are in trouble.

I think we'll make the playoffs, but this feels like a "changing of the guard" year to me - sadly, I think one of the younger teams (Jazz, Hornets, Rockets, Lakers) will win the West this year. And I think it's imperative for the Spurs to get 4 or 5 younger players for next year (Splitter, Mahinmi, J Jones, ?, ?).

The heart says never give up, the head says this is not our repeat year. :depressed

[J_Paco]

In all fairness, the stretch of teams they were playing when they went 17-3 isn't nearly as difficult as the stretch now. Hence, the losing skid.


I'm a little perplexed by these quotes.

I hope they get it together soon, and it's nice to see they're just as concerned as we are, but for a team to have mental lapses this late in the season is puzzling.

I understand that, but why attempt to discredit the team's great start? They're basically the same team that went 17-3, they just need to get their confidence back up after going through (another) bad stretch. This is the NBA, a marathon, not the NFL, a sprint, they've gotta pace themselves. If their still playing this up-and-down in late-March and into April, then will have reason to be as pessimistic a Hollinger is at end of his article.

[boutons_]

It's very hard to see a repeat next June.

And if no repeat in 08, then Tim won't have repeat ever.

They just look so lost, so ineffective, so lottery team.

Of course it's mental. They haven't physically declined across the board that much since only last June.

No fun, none at all.

[J_Paco]

I just went here: http://www.nba.com/spurs/schedule/results_2006.html and checked out the Spurs' post-ASB Break records since 2002-03, and the disturbing this is that we are in uncharted territory right now. We have not had a stretch like this post-ASB in the era of SPAM.

The team looks old, slow and tentative, and we've never looked that this late in a season and won a championship. I hate to say it, but Hollinger is on the money and we are in trouble.

I think we'll make the playoffs, but this feels like a "changing of the guard" year to me - sadly, I think one of the younger teams (Jazz, Hornets, Rockets, Lakers) will win the West this year. And I think it's imperative for the Spurs to get 4 or 5 younger players for next year (Splitter, Mahinmi, J Jones, ?, ?).

The heart says never give up, the head says this is not our repeat year. :depressed


To be honest, I had my doubts last season after we lost to a horrible Boston team late last season - coincidentally on St. Patrick's Day as well - and then later to a Jermaine O'Neal-less Indiana team. The team had reasons to worry and doubt last season as well, the Mavs were lighting the league on-fire, yet they rose above the adversity to gain another championship. Shit, in 2005 they headed into the playoffs with a hobbled Tim Duncan and missing a key role-player due to injury (Devin), yet they still won it all. Who's to say that this team can't possibly do the same exact thing?

[slayermin]

I'm worried. But I'm not worried.

As much as I would have loved for Horry's shot to go in at the end, I think it's better to save that mojo for the playoffs.

I was disappointed with the execution at the end. Spurs had the game in hand more than once and should have won. They gave it away on so many levels, it's frustrating.

But after tonight and Friday night against Detroit, it looks like Robert Horry is coming to life. He still isn't shooting that well but it looks like he has a little left in the tank for the playoffs. That's one positive thing to take away from these losses.

[mVp]

Jesus. They need a psychiatrist.

lol just what I was thinking.

But seriously, I'm worried about them :depressed

I hope they get over this "mental" thing soon.

[sabar]

Not worried. It's not like we're being consistently blown out. In a 7-game series we can outplay and outcoach any team.

[flame]

Don't jump off the bandwagon quite yet. Last time I went to ESPN.com the Rockets were barely in the playoffs on a 16 game winning streak and the Spurs were the number 1 team in the west.

You also need to consider that we haven't always won the championship ranked number one. In '05 we were ranked 2nd. Just last year we were ranked 3rd.

Currently we are ranked 6th in a VERY tight conference. If they put together even the slightest win streak they can move up a few spots and be right there in the same old position as always....just under the radar.

I really don't see how this is any big issue. So they can't finish out regular season games - big deal. Pop will get some things ironed out and you will get 120% intensity once playoff time rolls around.

Will the Spurs make the playoffs? I would happily put lots of money on it (and I'm just a poor college student). Will they get deep into the Western Conference? I say most likely. The only part I worry about is making it past all the Western teams into the Finals (very daunting considering the talent/vast amount of unknown factors), and then having to face some refreshed team who just took a leisurely stroll through the Leastern Conference.

I think this is one of the more iffy years of winning a Championship just because of the field of teams that have sprung up over the past......month......but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see them hoist the trophy one more time. All in all though - this skid is hardly indicative of how the Spurs will play in the playoffs. I don't see why it should cause any turmoil.

"Believe!" anyone?

[milkyway21]

2-pt 4thQ output from KG was already good enough for me. he:D he:D

I am disappointed. Just a 2pt game. Almost the same with Detroit.
But, this losing to the Suns, then to Detroit, and then Boston is nothing compared to almost losing Tim Duncan to injury in 2005. That was almost the end of our journey for the Spurs that yr. You don't even even know if can play again the rest of the season. But we made history, he came back and they won. Awesome!

At least they're healthy, the 4(TD,TP, Manu & Bruce), of them.

BTW, that ESPN anniversary cover featuring the Spurs didn't work out well for the both of them huh! :lol

[Princess Pimp]

They are sinking and sinking fast...

Just die already spurs!

[Princess Pimp]

I understand that, but why attempt to discredit the team's great start? They're basically the same team that went 17-3, they just need to get their confidence back up after going through (another) bad stretch. This is the NBA, a marathon, not the NFL, a sprint, they've gotta pace themselves. If their still playing this up-and-down in late-March and into April, then will have reason to be as pessimistic a Hollinger is at end of his article.

Stop living in the past numbnuts, what does a 17-3 start has to do with sucking now?

[WalterBenitez]

I won't let a losing streak kill me faith, but we are losing badly, only got energy for 30 minutes or so, after that we are done.

When you need 3 guys at the top in any given night, it's hard to say we are gonna win with the presente level of TD, Manu, TP, Bruce, Mike, Kurt, Fabricio, etc.... we need to set an style we are playing bad offense, bad defense.

I don't see the light my friends, probably is still night and the light will come with suns :D

[Harry Callahan]

I don't think the NBA set up the schedule like this in prior years with all the BtoBs AFTER the Rodeo trip. In addition, more often than not, the second game of the BtoB is a home game, so essentially, some of the benefit of the home game is lost.

Grinding down an older team is done like this. Sucks.

[George Gervin's Afro]

We are falling.. and rather quickly..

[1Parker1]

Blame Finley for the lack of confidence. In the first quarter, he didn't attempt a shot and the SPurs got up 23 points. Then he misses that easy layup, followed by the wide open 3 pointer and the rest of the Spurs start slumping as well. :depressed

[mexicanjunior]

It kills me to say it but I think we will be in a Gone Fishing segment soon...if we even make it that far...

[SpurOutofTownFan]

Awesome...we've never been this far under the radar in a repeat year before :smokin

:clap

[DaDakota]

It is wild to see a team that has won 4 championships in the last 9 years and is the defending champion lose it's confidence.

I mean this team has everything, they just need to get that trust back.....

Honestly, I think Popovich has screwed around with the lineup and roster a little too much and that people are unsure of their roles.

DD

[ancestron]

When Horry's shot missed at the buzzer, it felt like someone kicked me square in the family jewels. I felt physically ill. Like the Basketball Gods were laughing, saying, "you didn't really think they would win did you?" :depressed indeed

[BlackSwordsMan]

=[

[Obstructed_View]

Manu needs to get off this "we couldn't buy a shot and they couldn't miss" crap. It's the difference between layups and forced jumpers, or between defense and lack of same.

Didn't Manu take a bad three when they needed a two to tie? Please.

[Rummpd]

sounds like concerns right before some championship runs - this team will right the ship!

[SAGambler]

I understand that, but why attempt to discredit the team's great start? They're basically the same team that went 17-3, they just need to get their confidence back up after going through (another) bad stretch. This is the NBA, a marathon, not the NFL, a sprint, they've gotta pace themselves. If their still playing this up-and-down in late-March and into April, then will have reason to be as pessimistic a Hollinger is at end of his article.

In name only. The team that went 17 - 3 was moving the ball, driving the lane, steadily raining 3s on opponents. That team no longer exists. For one quarter last night, they looked like the Spurs of November. Then they reverted back to the Spurs of December, Januar. I'm beginning to think the Spurs couldn't hold a big lead if it was handcuffed to them.

It's almost like when we started having to sit players due to injury, when they came back, it was without the chemistry of November.

Hopefully, we can put together a win for 7 more games, which should get us into the playoffs. After that, maybe things will come together and we can end the season like we started it.

[Mr. Body]

It's not just mental. They're playing games with themselves, when it's clearly also physical. A good portion of the team cannot bring it anymore, not on a regular basis. They're too old and broken-down, lack so much athleticism. They don't have much hunger anymore, not as a cohesive team. Maybe they can get it together for one more run, but I'm not sure they can do it for an entire single series.

[SenorSpur]

Winning a championship is always the ultimate goal for a team and is almost equally as satisfying for us fans. Personally, I believe winning the championship was last year, with the squad we had in place and with the flaws that existed in that team, has indirectly led to diminished returns we're seeing today.

It's no secret to anyone that this team looked the same way last season. Many of us, including myself, were clamoring for the FO to do something to add some energy and youth to the squad. The FO did nothing - and yet they somehow prevailed. Reaching the goal of last year led to the philosophical mandate on the part of the FO to "stand pat" and not make any major changes with the roster. That championship of last year provided the most conveinent of excuses to do nothing. Who could argue at that time? Of course, this is the same FO that decided they wanted to pursue Jason Kidd after winning a title in 2003, but I digress.

Pat Riley took the same route over the summer of 2006, after winning the first title in Heat history. He elected to keep the same roster of older players, many of whom were at the end of their careers. How'd that turn out?

That decision being made, the team we see now is a year older, a year more worn, and the overall talent level has diminished to a level that they're being outplayed by younger, quicker, more hungrier teams on a nightly basis. I just do not see how this team is going to "magically" correct what is wrong here in time to successfully defend their title. There are no miracles in the NBA. There are no shortcuts - especially when the conference is as tough as anyone can ever remember.

[Mr. Body]

Plus they decided to trade Scola for nothing. Like he'd disrupt chemistry of that 'all-fired championship team'. Can't we recognize that as a massive failure at this point?

[DarrinS]

When Horry's shot missed at the buzzer, it felt like someone kicked me square in the family jewels. I felt physically ill. Like the Basketball Gods were laughing, saying, "you didn't really think they would win did you?" :depressed indeed


That feeling hit me much earlier in the game.

[SenorSpur]

Plus they decided to trade Scola for nothing. Like he'd disrupt chemistry of that 'all-fired championship team'. Can't we recognize that as a massive failure at this point?

Boy, I didn't want to go there, but a valid point. I'm sure we were all hoping this wouldn't come back to bite the Spurs, but guess what?

[cheguevara]

at halftime I had a phone call so I was on the phone for a while. I came back to watch the game and Spurs were down 3 with 6 mins to play in the 3rd!!!

I could not beleive it, how in the hell that happened is out of my comprehension. I knew Spurs lost the game right then

[1Parker1]

Spurs players and Pop blaming this as all mental problems is wrong. If you can't be mentally stable during regular season games, how do they expect it not to happen in the playoffs?

[Bruno]

Reaching the goal of last year led to the philosophical mandate on the part of the FO to "stand pat" and not make any major changes with the roster.

I disagree with that.

Spurs FO has tried to go younger via trade, FA or draft but they have failed at that.
There isn't a "stand pat philosophy".

[Indazone]

In name only. The team that went 17 - 3 was moving the ball, driving the lane, steadily raining 3s on opponents. That team no longer exists. For one quarter last night, they looked like the Spurs of November. Then they reverted back to the Spurs of December, Januar. I'm beginning to think the Spurs couldn't hold a big lead if it was handcuffed to them.

It's almost like when we started having to sit players due to injury, when they came back, it was without the chemistry of November.

Hopefully, we can put together a win for 7 more games, which should get us into the playoffs. After that, maybe things will come together and we can end the season like we started it.

NBA.COM called Tony Parker the ballstopper and there was no ball movement. This is the reason for the demise of the Spurs against the Celts.

[SenorSpur]

Spurs players and Pop blaming this as all mental problems is wrong. If you can't be mentally stable during regular season games, how do they expect it not to happen in the playoffs?

I also question his statement too because one of the hallmarks of this championship dynasty has been their mental fortitude. If this squad IS actually enduring mental issues, it probably from fatigue, age and diminshed skill level.

[ploto]

Personally, I believe winning the championship was last year, with the squad we had in place and with the flaws that existed in that team, has indirectly led to diminished returns we're seeing today.

Reaching the goal of last year led to the philosophical mandate on the part of the FO to "stand pat" and not make any major changes with the roster. That championship of last year provided the most conveinent of excuses to do nothing.


I told people last summer that the worst thing that could have happened for the Spurs long-term success was winning the title last summer because the FO decided that team was better than it actually was. They spent most of their resources re-signing the same guys and for longer terms-- Bonner, Oberto, Vaughn. They did not even take the time to explore the market. Not only are they tied up for this year but for 1 or 2 more, as well. They even turned the expiring Brent Barry into an additional year and picked up Kurt Thomas' additional year over Fransisco's. They are locked in on alot of guys for next season and that is even with the assumption that Finley and Horry are gone.

The one good move was bringing in Udoka- as it was an attempt to address a real need and an issue facing the team. Otherwise, they pretty much stood pat- and gave away Beno and Scola.

[Mr. Body]

I disagree with that.

Spurs FO has tried to go younger via trade, FA or draft but they have failed at that.
There isn't a "stand pat philosophy".

Of course it's a stand pat philosophy. Luis Scola is 28. Younger on team average. You noticed they traded him away for zippo?

[Mr. Body]

They spent most of their resources re-signing the same guys and for longer terms-- Bonner, Oberto, Vaughn. They did not even take the time to explore the market. Not only are they tied up for this year but for 1 or 2 more, as well. They even turned the expiring Brent Barry into an additional year and picked up Kurt Thomas' additional year over Fransisco's.

Resigning that kind of money for Bonner was ludicrous. It's not big money, but it's money that could have gone elsewhere for a guy who isn't strictly 14th man material. When Oberto opted out looking for more years, I thought that was a bad sign, although smart on his part. Vaughn wasn't a big deal - he's useful and a good presence.

The Kurt Thomas trade was probably okay, but giving up that badly, badly needed first rounder was stupid, and as you say, tacking another contract year onto Barry wasn't great, but it'll not be a lot of money. In the end, since I don't believe we'll go very far in the playoffs (crossing fingers otherwise), getting Thomas for a first round pick over Elson probably hurts more than helps.

[rascal]

I told people last summer that the worst thing that could have happened for the Spurs long-term success was winning the title last summer because the FO decided that team was better than it actually was. They spent most of their resources re-signing the same guys and for longer terms-- Bonner, Oberto, Vaughn. They did not even take the time to explore the market. Not only are they tied up for this year but for 1 or 2 more, as well. They even turned the expiring Brent Barry into an additional year and picked up Kurt Thomas' additional year over Fransisco's. They are locked in on alot of guys for next season and that is even with the assumption that Finley and Horry are gone.

The one good move was bringing in Udoka- as it was an attempt to address a real need and an issue facing the team. Otherwise, they pretty much stood pat- and gave away Beno and Scola.

Agree. The lack of moves last summer or non moves was not wise. Locking up older over the hill or marginal talented players and jamming up roster flexibility will waste a couple more years off of Duncan's prime. The window for success will close with Duncan.

[Bruno]

Of course it's a stand pat philosophy. Luis Scola is 28. Younger on team average. You noticed they traded him away for zippo?

You noticed that they re-sign for the same money a 28 years old Bonner and offered more money to a 21 years old Amir Johnson.

[Gino]

Losing Scola was the only blunder that Ive read.

But it was a BAD blunder. HORRIBLE!!!!!

[rascal]

I disagree with that.

Spurs FO has tried to go younger via trade, FA or draft but they have failed at that.
There isn't a "stand pat philosophy".

Last summer the philosophy was stand pat with no major core changes.
Only problem is time and other teams do not stand pat. So the team that was good enough to win last year is not necessarily good enough to win again this year.

[Mr. Body]

You noticed that they re-sign for the same money a 28 years old Bonner and offered more money to a 21 years old Amir Johnson.

Bonner :lol

They threw inadequate money at A Johnson and called it an offseason. Highly impressed.

Bonner :lol

You might have noticed Bonner was already on the team.

Bonner :lol

And he already sucked.

Bonner :lol

[DarrinS]

at halftime I had a phone call so I was on the phone for a while. I came back to watch the game and Spurs were down 3 with 6 mins to play in the 3rd!!!

I could not beleive it, how in the hell that happened is out of my comprehension. I knew Spurs lost the game right then

Same here. :bang

[Bruno]

Bonner :lol

They threw inadequate money at A Johnson and called it an offseason. Highly impressed.

Bonner :lol

You might have noticed Bonner was already on the team.

Bonner :lol

And he already sucked.

Bonner :lol

I know my English isn't perfect but you have some reading comprehension troubles.
Bonner sucking or not has nothing to do with what I've written.

[SenorSpur]

I disagree with that.

Spurs FO has tried to go younger via trade, FA or draft but they have failed at that.
There isn't a "stand pat philosophy".

Feel free to disagree all you want. Tell me where the so-called "younger" acquisitions are? Resigning Bonner? :lol

I don't give a shit who they made offers to. At the end of the day, it's about the number of fish that you come away with is what counts.

Spurs made a commitment to "stay the same" and roll with the old heads. Now, they're paying the penalty.

Rest assured, the Spurs WILL get younger sooner or later. Either by their own volition. Or if the team keeps regressing in its current fashion, we'll all be looking at the propsect of seeing R.C. Buford in Seacaucus, New York, attending the annual NBA Draft Lottery, rather than the NBA Finals.

[Mr. Body]

I know my English isn't perfect but you have some reading comprehension troubles.
Bonner sucking or not has nothing to do with what I've written.

Bonner sucking was a flourish. You said we didn't have a 'stand pat philosophy', claiming they sort of went after Amir Johnson and resigned Matt Bonner. I said gamely going after Amir Johnson wasn't worth broken bricks and we already had Matt Bonner on the team, so how is that not standing pat? How is that not doing anything to add youth and talent? QED.

[Agloco]

Stop living in the past numbnuts, what does a 17-3 start has to do with sucking now?


Ummm..... perhaps everything.

These are the same players that went on a 17-3 tear, no?

[Mr. Body]

Ummm..... perhaps everything.

These are the same players that went on a 17-3 tear, no?

In a literal sense... yes. But these are the same players, literally, that were dropping loads in their diapers 25-37 years ago.

[Agloco]

In a literal sense... yes. But these are the same players, literally, that were dropping loads in their diapers 25-37 years ago.

An irrelevant comparison.

It would be like discounting Houston's 22 game streak and citing their 24-20 start as the true benchmark.

They are capable of winning 17 out of 20. We've seen it as recently as this season. Same dance just a different tune at this point.

For all of the moaning and groaning, the Spurs did have a shot at winning every game of late, with the exception of the NO game.

[Mr. Body]

What's with your redlining everything?

The point is the start of the season is ancient history. The time logged onto those old bones in the meantime isn't going to log itself off.

[SenorSpur]

An irrelevant comparison.

It would be like discounting Houston's 22 game streak and citing their 24-20 start as the true benchmark.

They are capable of winning 17 out of 20. We've seen it as recently as this season. Same dance just a different tune at this point.

For all of the moaning and groaning, the Spurs did have a shot at winning every game of late, with the exception of the NO game.

That's just it. The Spurs had a chance to win "down the stretch" of each of these recent losses - but they didn't. Very unSpurs-like.

[Agloco]

What's with your redlining everything?

The point is the start of the season is ancient history. The time logged onto those old bones in the meantime isn't going to log itself off.


Better? Variety is the spice of life eh?

Good point. But it shows what they're capable of nonetheless.

[vander]

no one on this team, except Ginobili occasionally, WANTS to take the jump shot, we work the ball around and get an open look for one of our "shooters" and it's glaringly obvious that they don't have confidence in their ability to hit it (at the success rate Pop demands?).
I've never seen a team look to make one more pass as much as this team does, or pump fake-drive-dish-repeat as much as this team does. and I blame it on Pop, he creates to much of a fear-of-failure atmosphere, we need Nellie to come in here and instill in our shooters that they are supposed to take those shots, and make or miss, the team wanted them to shoot, that was how the play was supposed to work.

you can't score all your points by getting to the bucket, it will wear you out, and it gets easier to defend each time, you have to be able coast and make jumpers, loosen the D back up, be flexible. and the Spurs can't seem to do that, and that's why we go on the long scoring droughts, because when we can't get layups, we still only want layups

:pctoss

[Bruno]

I don't give a shit who they made offers to. At the end of the day, it's about the number of fish that you come away with is what counts.


That's the flaw in what you said.

You, as everyone else, notice that Spurs lack of youth and you draw the conclusion that it means that Spurs aren't trying to go younger.

Spurs have tried to go younger :
- They have kept their draft picks
- Sign or try to sign players like Amir Johnson, Bonner, Udoka or Roger Mason. Spurs have likely contacted other FAs this summer.
- Try to trade for Korver, Mike Miller and likely Ron Artest.

With these facts, I have a hard time at drawing the same conclusion than you. Spurs have definitely tried to go younger.

[Agloco]

That's just it. The Spurs had a chance to win "down the stretch" of each of these recent losses - but they didn't. Very unSpurs-like.


Ture, but not very "we aren't contenders anymore and can't make the playoffs"-like

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

true, our jumpshooting ability has regressed horribly.. too much dependence on the big three for offense will do that. We need more all around jumpshots not just low percentage threes.

[E20]

I'm pretty confident we're gonna repeat. Call me a homer, but I'm a homer so it won't do any good.

[Bruno]

Bonner sucking was a flourish. You said we didn't have a 'stand pat philosophy', claiming they sort of went after Amir Johnson and resigned Matt Bonner. I said gamely going after Amir Johnson wasn't worth broken bricks and we already had Matt Bonner on the team, so how is that not standing pat? How is that not doing anything to add youth and talent? QED.

Throwing $12M on a 21 years old player (Johnson) is more about adding youth and talent than throwing $10M on a 28 years old player (Scola).

And your argument about Bonner being with the team makes few sense. Bonner is quite young and Spurs liked him. You are saying that Spurs shouldn't have signed a quite young player they liked, only because he played for them the year before.

[spursfan09]

It is wild to see a team that has won 4 championships in the last 9 years and is the defending champion lose it's confidence.

I mean this team has everything, they just need to get that trust back.....

Honestly, I think Popovich has screwed around with the lineup and roster a little too much and that people are unsure of their roles.

DD

Rocket fan, I agree with you about the Pop part for sure!

[SenorSpur]

no one on this team, except Ginobili occasionally, WANTS to take the jump shot, we work the ball around and get an open look for one of our "shooters" and it's glaringly obvious that they don't have confidence in their ability to hit it (at the success rate Pop demands?). I've never seen a team look to make one more pass as much as this team does, or pump fake-drive-dish-repeat as much as this team does.
:pctoss

Concur. The Spurs looked absolutely pathetic offensively down the stretch against the Celtics. It harks back to those awful mid or late 90's Spurs (before Manu and Tony), when the offense was simply as dull as mud.

This is in contrast to the Celtics, who worked the ball around the perimeter with crisp sharp passes, drove the lanes for kickouts and took advantage of wide-open looks. Hmmm. In fact, it looked an awful lot like the Spurs used to execute.

[SenorSpur]

That's the flaw in what you said.

You, as everyone else, notice that Spurs lack of youth and you draw the conclusion that it means that Spurs aren't trying to go younger.

Spurs have tried to go younger :
- They have kept their draft picks
- Sign or try to sign players like Amir Johnson, Bonner, Udoka or Roger Mason. Spurs have likely contacted other FAs this summer.
- Try to trade for Korver, Mike Miller and likely Ron Artest.

With these facts, I have a hard time at drawing the same conclusion than you. Spurs have definitely tried to go younger.

Sorry dude. I understand what you're saying, but you're missing a critical element in your attempt to prove your point. Trying and doing two different things. I don't care about what they tried to do. Did they get it done? No.

I'll admit that bringing in Udoka was nice signing. However, it's not enough. There are other things they could have done. Why not keep D-Wash and invest time in him? I argue that he could have hardly done any worse than Stoudamire. I was against it at first, but now I see that bringing Scola in could've benefitted this team greatly. Or when they were rotating swingmen on and off the team for about 2 months, how about keeping around a guy like DeMarr Johnson? Could he have been any worse than Finley is now?

Sports, like any other corporate entity, is a results-oriented business. Tell what you've done to improve, not what you tried to do.

[vander]

Concur. The Spurs looked absolutely pathetic offensively down the stretch against the Celtics. It harks back to those awful mid or late 90's Spurs (before Manu and Tony), when the offense was simply as dull as mud.

This is in contrast to the Celtics, who worked the ball around the perimeter with crisp sharp passes, drove the lanes for kickouts and took advantage of wide-open looks. Hmmm. In fact, it looked an awful lot like the Spurs used to execute.

Finley, if you or a minion of yours reads this site, hear me:

You are a shooter! take the shot! make or miss, take it again! this fan believes in you! I'm sure plenty others do as well. Don't listen to the whiners and losers who say you are washed up and are the reason the spurs are losing. I don't want to see you hesitate, pump fake, or pass it off, when you get an open look, shoot it like you have seen the future and already watched hit nothing but net. the sooner you do this, the sooner the spurs start rolling again!

:hungry:

[michaelwcho]

It's not just mental. They're playing games with themselves, when it's clearly also physical. A good portion of the team cannot bring it anymore, not on a regular basis. They're too old and broken-down, lack so much athleticism. They don't have much hunger anymore, not as a cohesive team. Maybe they can get it together for one more run, but I'm not sure they can do it for an entire single series.

Sadly, I agree. They are saying mental, but it's most likely physical. This reminds me of my Eagles (NFL), who after a glorious stretch have sunk back into the pack. There are always excuses, bad calls, bad luck, injuries, but the performance just wasn't there for one reason or other.

However, this has been a grueling stretch, and they are no doubt worn down by injuries and a much-better conference to battle. Because of the nature of the playoffs and how the games are scheduled, I think we will be back in the mix and have as good a shot as anybody.

[T Park]

I can't wait to see the crow thread that will be created after all this :lol

[SenorSpur]

Finley, if you or a minion of yours reads this site, hear me:

You are a shooter! take the shot! make or miss, take it again! this fan believes in you! I'm sure plenty others do as well. Don't listen to the whiners and losers who say you are washed up and are the reason the spurs are losing. I don't want to see you hesitate, pump fake, or pass it off, when you get an open look, shoot it like you have seen the future and already watched hit nothing but net. the sooner you do this, the sooner the spurs start rolling again!

:hungry:


If Finley has to be told to do these things at this stage of career, it's a true indictment on how far he's fallen as a basketball player. Nothing lasts forever. The dude is 34-35 years old. His skills, or any pro athlete for that matter, will start to decline if you play long enough.

Hell, Duncan isn't quite the same player he was 4-5 years ago. Doesn't mean he's no longer great. It just means as he's developed his game, other areas (mobility and quickness) are what they once were.

In Finley's case, we're all witnessing what I warned everyone about. This is what he's was becoming his last 2-3 seasons in Dallas - a one-trick pony who, if he's not hitting his jumpers, is of virtuallly no use to a team on the floor.

[Bruno]

I don't care about what they tried to do.


Not me.
I think that looking at what Spurs' FO tried to do is really interesting, especially when it comes to guess what is their state of mind.

Anyway, past is past and Spurs' FO can do nothing right now. We will see what these old Spurs will do this year and we will have months this summer to talk about what moves they should do or have done.

[vander]

If Finley has to be told to do these things at this stage of career, it's a true indictment on how far he's fallen as a basketball player. Nothing lasts forever. The dude is 34-35 years old. His skills, or any pro athlete for that matter, will start to decline if you play long enough.

Hell, Duncan isn't quite the same player he was 4-5 years ago. Doesn't mean he's no longer great. It just means as he's developed his game, other areas (mobility and quickness) are what they once were.

In Finley's case, we're all witnessing what I warned everyone about. This is what he's was becoming his last 2-3 seasons in Dallas - a one-trick pony who, if he's not hitting his jumpers, is of virtuallly no use to a team on the floor.

no! see, you have to cut that out :nope Finley may not be what he once was, but the Spurs never expected or needed him to be that. all he has to do is make the shot when he gets an open look, and he CAN STILL DO THAT! but the hesitation and passing off tells me he doesn't have to confidence that a shooter NEEDS TO HAVE. so we got to start supporting him rather then criticizing and hating him
all you people who sit close to the action at the games, c'mon, show Finley some love :toast

[SenorSpur]

no! see, you have to cut that out :nope Finley may not be what he once was, but the Spurs never expected or needed him to be that. all he has to do is make the shot when he gets an open look, and he CAN STILL DO THAT! but the hesitation and passing off tells me he doesn't have to confidence that a shooter NEEDS TO HAVE. so we got to start supporting him rather then criticizing and hating him
all you people who sit close to the action at the games, c'mon, show Finley some love :toast

Throughout is career, Finley's been a solid professional and a good teammate. He was an athletic wonder coming out of Wisconsin. I often longed for the Spurs to have been able to get their hands on such a player - even back then.

However, this is not the young Finley the Spurs brought to town. This is the thinking-man's version of Finley. The older, more mature version of Finley. The one-dimensional, jump-shooting player, who cannot or will not drive the ball the to cup, can't beat anyone off the dribble and cannot create shots for himself or his teammates. Sure the Spurs need him to hit shots, but when he's not hitting them, it's tough to justify having him on the floor because he doesn't bring much else. After all, he's not even an average defensive player.

In case you didn't know, Finley was as maligned in Dallas for EXACTLY these same reasons. However back then, his detractors pointed to his exhorbiant salary in relation to his pedestrian contributions. This isn't Finley hate (I think he's a good guy), but these criticisms were nothing new with Mavs supporters back then or Spurs supporters now. The fact is Finley has been in this declining comfort zone for about 5 years. It was simply a matter of time before his declining skills became noticeable to those who haven't watched him over the past half decade. Unfortunately, it's now come to a point where he cannot be depended on for consistent contributions from game to game.

[vander]

Throughout is career, Finley's been a solid professional and a good teammate. He was an athletic wonder coming out of Wisconsin. I often longed for the Spurs to have been able to get their hands on such a player - even back then.

However, this is not the young Finley the Spurs brought to town. This is the thinking-man's version of Finley. The older, more mature version of Finley. The one-dimensional, jump-shooting player, who cannot or will not drive the ball the to cup, can't beat anyone off the dribble and cannot create shots for himself or his teammates. Sure the Spurs need him to hit shots, but when he's not hitting them, it's tough to justify having him on the floor because he doesn't bring much else. After all, he's not even an average defensive player.

In case you didn't know, Finley was as maligned in Dallas for EXACTLY these same reasons. However back then, his detractors pointed to his exhorbiant salary in relation to his pedestrian contributions. This isn't Finley hate (I think he's a good guy), but this is nothing new with Mavs supporters back then and Spurs supporter now. The fact is Finley has been in this declining comfort zone for about 5 years. It was simply a matter of time before his declining skills became noticeable. It's obvious he cannot be depended on for consistent contributions from game to game.

but He's on our team, can hit the open jumper, and will have to if we are to have any chance at a repeat. so you gots to put your hate aside until then end of the season, and offer the Findog some encouragement :clap

[Mr. Body]

Keeping a Jeremy Richardson, Darius Washington, or Dermarr Johnson, would have been great about now, when some kind of youth, vim, and energy could be paying larger dividends. I suspect Pop always wanted to go after either Stoudamire or Cassell, knowing they'd be dumped, and so sent Washington packing. He's not that great of a player in the long run, but goddam, when did we stop trying to develop youth? Why isn't Ian Mahinmi on the active roster? How is he any worse than Oberto at the moment?

[T Park]

Mahinmi isn't even close to being ready get a grip.

[Mr. Body]

Mahinmi isn't even close to being ready get a grip.

Grip my penis. We need somebody out there with energy at least in runs. If we had a guy soaking up minutes earlier, we might have had fresher players now.

[T Park]

Grip my?

Good lord...

Mahinmi isn't and wasn't ready for NBA level basketball.

Why are you so thick headed in not seeing that!?!?!

He can't stay out of foul trouble at Single A, hows he supposed to play more than 5 mins at the BIG level??!!

[Mr. Body]

I was just hoping you'd grip my penis.

[SenorSpur]

Grip my penis. We need somebody out there with energy at least in runs. If we had a guy soaking up minutes earlier, we might have had fresher players now.

True dat. If Tim isn't providing backling defensive support, it aint happening. Oberto and Thomas aren't bad players, but does anyone really tthey are going to block a shot or intimidate an opposing post player.

[SenorSpur]

Keeping a Jeremy Richardson, Darius Washington, or Dermarr Johnson, would have been great about now, when some kind of youth, vim, and energy could be paying larger dividends. I suspect Pop always wanted to go after either Stoudamire or Cassell, knowing they'd be dumped, and so sent Washington packing. He's not that great of a player in the long run, but goddam, when did we stop trying to develop youth? Why isn't Ian Mahinmi on the active roster? How is he any worse than Oberto at the moment?

Somebody of talent and skills who is under the age of 33! :wtf

[ednobli2]

In all fairness, the stretch of teams they were playing when they went 17-3 isn't nearly as difficult as the stretch now. Hence, the losing skid.


I'm a little perplexed by these quotes.

I hope they get it together soon, and it's nice to see they're just as concerned as we are, but for a team to have mental lapses this late in the season is puzzling.

So you can say that about Houston's win streak.

[roycrikside]

I'm hopeful that getting Barry back can make a difference. He'll give us a guy who can pass and dribble and hit open shots. We're woefully short on all three counts right now.

Finley's role needs to be dramatically reduced. Play him a few minutes, see if the jumper is on that night, and if it's not, sit him down and keep him on the bench. He's not like Barry, he can't do anything besides shoot. He has no other skills, so don't waste court time with him.

[whottt]

I know my English isn't perfect but you have some reading comprehension troubles.
Bonner sucking or not has nothing to do with what I've written.



He's a dumbasss dude...he still hasn't gotten over the Spurs not signing Javtokas.


A complete dumbass that does not know shit about basketball. One of the most unknowledgable fans on the entire forum. I don't even read his takes.


He will never understand anything you try to explain to him and it's not because you failt to do it...he just has a limited perspective of the game.


I'd save your breath if I were you.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

So you can say that about Houston's win streak.


I can. I do think winning 22 games straight is impressive, as there have been some tough games throw in there, but I'm definitely not scared of Houston.

[m33p0]

Pop's current plan:

step 1. Make opponents think the Spurs are toast.

step 2. Make it into the playoffs whatever seed the team is at.

step 3. Sneak up from behind.

step 4. Give the NBA the biggest wedgie ever.

step 5. Win another championship.

[Princess Pimp]

Pop's current plan:

step 1. Make opponents think the Spurs are toast.

step 2. Make it into the playoffs whatever seed the team is at.

step 3. Sneak up from behind.

step 4. Give the NBA the biggest wedgie ever.

step 5. Win another championship.

:lol

[T Park]

True dat. If Tim isn't providing backling defensive support, it aint happening. Oberto and Thomas aren't bad players, but does anyone really tthey are going to block a shot or intimidate an opposing post player.


Yeah Kurt THomas is a horrible low post defender on opposing big men.

:rolleyes

[Princess Pimp]

Yeah Kurt THomas is a horrible low post defender on opposing big men.

:rolleyes

He really is dumb ass ignorant

[SenorSpur]

Yeah Kurt THomas is a horrible low post defender on opposing big men.

:rolleyes

I wasn't trying to imply that KT is a terrible low post defender. My point is Tim is the only shot-blocker on this team. He's the lone defender capable of defending his man, yet rotating to provide some back side, rim-protecting support. No other big on this team is able to do that.

[wildbill2u]

When you have a player like Horry who the coach won't play on back2backs because he's too spent to do the job, then you have a player who isn't able to pull his weight as a daily player. Horry is better than Finley because he still can play a little defense, but he needs to move down in the rotation. Save him for 3 point miracles.

Finley's legs are probably gone at this point for any extended minutes, especially as a starter. When Pop inserted him into the lineup as a starter that means he has to go against the best players on the other team. He can't do it defensively (if he ever could) and he gets worn down against a better first team player so he can't perform as well on offense. You need good legs under you to make the jumper consistently.

Thomas was let go by two clubs? Does that tell you anything about the declining athleticism of a long time vet. He shouldn't be starting against anyone's first unit player because he's probably overmatched.

Stoudamire: Fergeddabout it. Vaughn is the only hope unless we want to bring back NVE. At least NVE was taller.

Barry was playing good before his injury. I don't know how he'll play after so much time off. He's a wild card.

These veteragn players need less time and judicious use of their waning abilities. They shouldn't be in the 7-8-9 man rotation. Bring them in for blowouts or last minute prayers.

The problem is who is to replace them? I don't think we have much choice but to use Udoka and Bonner and Vaughn more and hope for the best.