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Nbadan
03-18-2008, 03:48 AM
Republican-backed preachers have been ridding the wave of anti-American hate speech for years, but then again, they aren't black....

Obama's Minister Committed "Treason" But When My Father Said the Same Thing He Was a Republican Hero


When Senator Obama's preacher thundered about racism and injustice Obama suffered smear-by-association. But when my late father -- Religious Right leader Francis Schaeffer -- denounced America and even called for the violent overthrow of the US government, he was invited to lunch with presidents Ford, Reagan and Bush, Sr.

Every Sunday thousands of right wing white preachers (following in my father's footsteps) rail against America's sins from tens of thousands of pulpits. They tell us that America is complicit in the "murder of the unborn," has become "Sodom" by coddling gays, and that our public schools are sinful places full of evolutionists and sex educators hell-bent on corrupting children. They say, as my dad often did, that we are, "under the judgment of God." They call America evil and warn of immanent destruction. By comparison Obama's minister's shouted "controversial" comments were mild. All he said was that God should damn America for our racism and violence and that no one had ever used the N-word about Hillary Clinton.

Dad and I were amongst the founders of the Religious right. In the 1970s and 1980s, while Dad and I crisscrossed America denouncing our nation's sins instead of getting in trouble we became darlings of the Republican Party. (This was while I was my father's sidekick before I dropped out of the evangelical movement altogether.) We were rewarded for our "stand" by people such as Congressman Jack Kemp, the Fords, Reagan and the Bush family. The top Republican leadership depended on preachers and agitators like us to energize their rank and file. No one called us un-American.

Consider a few passages from my father's immensely influential America-bashing book A Christian Manifesto. It sailed under the radar of the major media who, back when it was published in 1980, were not paying particular attention to best-selling religious books. Nevertheless it sold more than a million copies.

Here's Dad writing in his chapter on civil disobedience:

If there is a legitimate reason for the use of force [against the US government]... then at a certain point force is justifiable.

And this:

In the United States the materialistic, humanistic world view is being taught exclusively in most state schools... There is an obvious parallel between this and the situation in Russia [the USSR]. And we really must not be blind to the fact that indeed in the public schools in the United States all religious influence is as forcibly forbidden as in the Soviet Union....

Then this:

There does come a time when force, even physical force, is appropriate... A true Christian in Hitler's Germany and in the occupied countries should have defied the false and counterfeit state. This brings us to a current issue that is crucial for the future of the church in the United States, the issue of abortion... It is time we consciously realize that when any office commands what is contrary to God's law it abrogates it's authority. And our loyalty to the God who gave this law then requires that we make the appropriate response in that situation...

Was any conservative political leader associated with Dad running for cover? Far from it. Dad was a frequent guest of the Kemps, had lunch with the Fords, stayed in the White House as their guest, he met with Reagan, helped Dr. C. Everett Koop become Surgeon General. (I went on the 700 Club several times to generate support for Koop).

Dad became a hero to the evangelical community and a leading political instigator. When Dad died in 1984 everyone from Reagan to Kemp to Billy Graham lamented his passing publicly as the loss of a great American. Not one Republican leader was ever asked to denounce my dad or distanced himself from Dad's statements.

Take Dad's words and put them in the mouth of Obama's preacher (or in the mouth of any black American preacher) and people would be accusing that preacher of treason. Yet when we of the white Religious Right denounced America white conservative Americans and top political leaders, called our words "godly" and "prophetic" and a "call to repentance."

We Republican agitators of the mid 1970s to the late 1980s were genuinely anti-American in the same spirit that later Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson (both followers of my father) were anti-American when they said God had removed his blessing from America on 9/11, because America accepted gays. Falwell and Robertson recanted but we never did.

My dad's books denouncing America and comparing the USA to Hitler are still best sellers in the "respectable" evangelical community and he's still hailed as a prophet by many Republican leaders. When Mike Huckabee was recently asked by Katie Couric to name one book he'd take with him to a desert island, besides the Bible, he named Dad's Whatever Happened to the Human Race? a book where Dad also compared America to Hitler's Germany.

The hypocrisy of the right denouncing Obama, because of his minister's words, is staggering. They are the same people who argue for the right to "bear arms" as "insurance" to limit government power. They are the same people that (in the early 1980s roared and cheered when I called down damnation on America as "fallen away from God" at their national meetings where I was keynote speaker, including the annual meeting of the ultraconservative Southern Baptist convention, and the religious broadcasters that I addressed.

Today we have a marriage of convenience between the right wing fundamentalists who hate Obama, and the "progressive" Clintons who are playing the race card through their own smear machine. As Jane Smiley writes in the Huffington Post "[The Clinton's] are, indeed, now part of the 'vast right wing conspiracy.' (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-smiley/im-already-against-the-n_b_90628.html )

Both the far right Republicans and the stop-at-nothing Clintons are using the "scandal" of Obama's preacher to undermine the first black American candidate with a serious shot at the presidency. Funny thing is, the racist Clinton/Far Right smear machine proves that Obama's minister had a valid point. There is plenty to yell about these days.

Frank Schaeffer is a writer and author of "CRAZY FOR GOD-How I Grew Up As One Of The Elect, Helped Found The Religious Right, And Lived To Take All (Or Almost All) Of It Back

Nbadan
03-18-2008, 04:14 AM
Why do Republican-supporting hate preachers get a pass from the M$M?

The difference between Jeremiah Wright and radical, white evangelical ministers



Ross Douthat and Ezra Klein are arguing about whether Jeremiah Wright's statements are comparable to those of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and John Hagee's. To argue that they're not comparable, Douthat -- like most people commenting on this raging controversy -- conflates two entirely separate analytical issues:

(1) Given their close and long-standing personal relationship, does Wright merit more scrutiny vis-a-vis Obama than white, radical evangelical ministers merit vis-a-vis Republican politicians? and,

(2) Are the statements of white evangelical ministers subjected to the same standards of judgment as those being applied to Wright's statements?

Even if the answer to (1) is "yes," that doesn't change the fact that the answer to (2) is a resounding "no."

The statement of Wright's which seems to be causing the most upset -- and it's one of two singled out by Douthat -- is his suggestion that there is a causal link between (a) America's constant bombings of and other interference with Middle Eastern countries and (b) the willingness of some Middle Eastern fanatics to attack the U.S. Ever since the 9/11 attacks, we've been told that positing any such causal connection is a sign of vicious anti-Americanism and that all decent people find such questions despicable. This week we learned that no respectable person would subject his children to a pastor who espouses such hateful ideas.

But the idea that America deserves terrorist attacks and other horrendous disasters has long been a frequently expressed view among the faction of white evangelical ministers to whom the Republican Party is most inextricably linked. Neither Jerry Falwell nor Pat Robertson ever retracted or denounced their view that America provoked the 9/11 attacks by doing things to anger God. John Hagee continues to believe that the City of New Orleans got what it deserved when Katrina drowned its residents and devastated the lives of thousands of Americans. And James Inhofe -- who happens to still be a Republican U.S. Senator -- blamed America for the 9/11 attacks by arguing in a 2002 Senate floor speech that "the spiritual door was opened for an attack against the United States of America" because we pressured Israel to give away parts of the West Bank.

The phrases "anti-American" and "America-haters" are among the most barren and manipulative in our entire political lexicon, but whatever they happen to mean on any given day, they easily encompass people who believe that the U.S. deserved the 9/11 attacks, devastating hurricanes and the like. Yet when are people like Falwell, Robertson, Hagee, Inhofe and other white Christian radicals ever described as anti-American or America-hating extremists? Never -- because white Christian evangelicals who tie themselves to the political Right are intrinsically patriotic. Does Douthat believe that those individuals are anti-American radicals and that people who allow their children to belong to their churches are exercising grave errors of judgment?

Those advancing the argument of Douthat's are also wildly understating the magnitude of the association between "anti-American" white evangelicals and Republican leaders. By all accounts, George Bush had private conversations with Pat Robertson about matters as weighty as whether to invade Iraq. Isn't that a big scandal -- that the President is consulting with an American-hating minister -- someone who believes God allowed the 9/11 attacks as punishment for our evil country -- about vital foreign policy decisions? No, it wasn't controversial at all.

John Hagee privately visits with the highest level Middle East officials in the White House and afterwards pronounces that they're in agreement. John McCain shares a stage with Hagee and lavishes him with praise, as Rudy Giuliani did with Pat Robertson. James Inhofe remains a member in good standing in the GOP Senate Caucus. The Republican Party has tied itself at the hip to a whole slew of "anti-American extremists" -- people who believe that the U.S. provoked the 9/11 attacks because God wants to punish us for the evil, wicked nation we've become -- and yet there is virtual silence about these associations.

Nor have the views of televangelist Rod Parsley, one of McCain's self-proclaimed "spiritual advisers," received a fraction of the attention generated by Wright. As both David Corn and Alan Colmes, among others, have documented, Parsley espouses views at least as extreme and radical as Wright, including his proclamation that "America was founded, in part, with the intention of seeing this false religion [Islam] destroyed." Unlike Wright and Obama -- for whom the former's controversial views are found nowhere near the latter's public or private conduct -- both George Bush and John McCain's Middle Eastern militarism are perfectly consonant with the most maniacal and crazed views of Christian Rapture enthusiasts such as Hagee, Parsley, Inhofe, and Robertson. Yet the controversy created over their close ties is virtually non-existent.

The Republican Party long ago adopted as a central strategy aligning itself with, and granting great influence to, the most radical, "America-hating" white evangelical Christian ministers in the country. They're given a complete pass on that because political orthodoxy mandates that white evangelical Christian ministers are inherently worthy of respect, no matter how extreme and noxious are their views. That orthodoxy stands in stark contrast to the universally enraged reaction to a few selected snippets from the angry rantings of a black Christian Minister. What accounts for that glaring disparity?

UPDATE: Steve M. notes that the Bush White House, in addition to consulting with Robertson, also consulted with the anti-American Jerry Falwell, including on the question of whom the administration should nominate to the Supreme Court. It even appointed a White House liaison for Falwell. When Falwell died, President Bush "said he was deeply saddened by Falwell's death, calling him 'a man who cherished faith, family and freedom.'"

Shouldn't we be very concerned about American children hearing our President praise an American-hating radical who believes that our country is a sick and wicked land that God wanted to be victimized by the 9/11 attacks? Again, the issue here is number (2) above, not number (1).

Doc Jerome
03-18-2008, 07:05 AM
The answer is simple, and very apparent.

George Gervin's Afro
03-18-2008, 07:09 AM
Wait your telling me that those who are whoring this Obama story are hypocrites? No, no way.. :rolleyes

Doc Jerome
03-18-2008, 07:37 AM
Wait your telling me that those who are whoring this Obama story are hypocrites? No, no way.. :rolleyes

Like I said, the answer is simple and apparent. You have come to a logical conclusion on your own, however, the disconnect with which you utter disagreement suggests that you have overridden/supplanted logic with specious reasoning.

Just say no to misinformation.

George Gervin's Afro
03-18-2008, 07:52 AM
Like I said, the answer is simple and apparent. You have come to a logical conclusion on your own, however, the disconnect with which you utter disagreement suggests that you have overridden/supplanted logic with specious reasoning.

Just say no to misinformation.


hey smart guy i agree with you. lighten up..

Doc Jerome
03-18-2008, 08:26 AM
hey smart guy i agree with you. lighten up..

Sorry bro. My apologies, there is just so much misinformation out here, I didn't mean to be overzealous. I got the gist of your post and it is quite clever.

smeagol
03-18-2008, 09:25 AM
Defending the indifensible . . .

xrayzebra
03-18-2008, 09:29 AM
Republican-backed preachers have been ridding the wave of anti-American hate speech for years, but then again, they aren't black....

Obama's Minister Committed "Treason" But When My Father Said the Same Thing He Was a Republican Hero



Frank Schaeffer is a writer and author of "CRAZY FOR GOD-How I Grew Up As One Of The Elect, Helped Found The Religious Right, And Lived To Take All (Or Almost All) Of It Back

Oh please tell me what "Republican" anti-American
preachers are getting a pass.....please, please, ah, come
on. And which ones Damned the United States of
America.

And who is this preacher who broke bread with all these
Republican Presidents. I have never heard of him.
But I did look him up on the old stand-by google and
the the other old standby Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Quite interesting reading. I found no
radical though. Look it up for yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Schaeffer

peewee's lovechild
03-18-2008, 09:32 AM
I've always said that religion should be completely seperate from government and politics.

And, what Reverand Wright said was treasonous. It applies for white ministers as well.

smeagol
03-18-2008, 09:54 AM
It applies for white ministers as well.

Have you heard any saying what Wright said?

peewee's lovechild
03-18-2008, 10:02 AM
Have you heard any saying what Wright said?

What does this even mean?

xrayzebra
03-18-2008, 10:04 AM
What does this even mean?

The true meaning of dense. Sometimes you don't
even have to try to show what dimms are made of.
:lol

clambake
03-18-2008, 10:17 AM
The true meaning of dense. Sometimes you don't
even have to try to show what dimms are made of.
:lol
you always place special importance about your God, which is strange for someone who bragged about abusing women that were being held as sex slaves in the ME.

has he forgiven you? :lol

peewee's lovechild
03-18-2008, 10:29 AM
The true meaning of dense. Sometimes you don't
even have to try to show what dimms are made of.
:lol


Have you heard any saying what Wright said?

That question doesn't make any grammatical sense.

smeagol
03-18-2008, 10:29 AM
What does this even mean?

H-a-v-e _ y-o-u _ h-e-a-r-d _ a-n-y _ w-h-i-t-e _ m-i-n-i-s-t-e-r-s _ s-a-y _ w-h-a-t _ W-r-i-g-h-t _ s-a-i-d ?

peewee's lovechild
03-18-2008, 10:32 AM
H-a-v-e _ y-o-u _ h-e-a-r-d _ a-n-y _ w-h-i-t-e _ m-i-n-i-s-t-e-r-s _ s-a-y _ w-h-a-t _ W-r-i-g-h-t _ s-a-i-d ?

That makes sense.

This doesn't:


Have you heard any saying what Wright said?

And, no, I haven't heard any white ministers say what Wright has said.

But, then again, I don't patronize any churches.

word
03-18-2008, 10:33 AM
Obamas speech hitting on all cylinders. Pretty good speech. However by default I consider anyone who mentions global warming as a menace an idiot.

Spurminator
03-18-2008, 10:36 AM
Jerry Falwell's comments after 9/11, I believe, were about as reprehensible as Wright's. One could argue they were worse.

That said, I don't know that Falwell was ever a "spiritual advisor" for any legitimate Presidential nominee. I'm not sure this story gets as much play if it was simply a matter of Obama having dinner with Wright or shaking his hand... though I'd bet there would be some who would try to play it up.

smeagol
03-18-2008, 10:48 AM
Obamas speech hitting on all cylinders. Pretty good speech. However by default I consider anyone who mentions global warming as a menace an idiot.

Anyone who does not see global warming as an issue is an idiot.

DarkReign
03-18-2008, 10:51 AM
Anyone who does not see global warming as an issue is an idiot.

http://firstrung.co.uk/dbimgs/iStock_can%20of%20worms.jpg

Spurminator
03-18-2008, 10:58 AM
You guys pretty much summed up the Global Warming debate right there.

Extra Stout
03-18-2008, 11:00 AM
Have you heard any saying what Wright said?
Yes, I've heard at least a few white fundamentalist charismatic Pentecostal preachers say that America deserves to go the way of Sodom and Gomorrah because of abortion/feminism/socialism/gay rights/Bill Clinton/liberalism in general.

Wild Cobra
03-18-2008, 04:51 PM
Sounds like they are damning demonrats. Not America! Not whites! Not blacks!

Wright damns America and whites. He is a fucking racist.

Nbadan
03-24-2008, 04:32 AM
pfffffffff.......ask and ye shall receive....

McCain Spiritual Guide Accuses Gov't Of Enabling 'Black Genocide'...


Nw8-9AGGsQw

Don Quixote
03-24-2008, 07:03 PM
Oh please tell me what "Republican" anti-American
preachers are getting a pass.....please, please, ah, come
on. And which ones Damned the United States of
America.

And who is this preacher who broke bread with all these
Republican Presidents. I have never heard of him.
But I did look him up on the old stand-by google and
the the other old standby Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Quite interesting reading. I found no
radical though. Look it up for yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Schaeffer

Actually, Francis Schaeffer (d.1984) is Frank's father and remains a hero of mine. Frank, we need to point out, is still a Christian but now belongs to Eastern Orthodoxy, while his parents were Presbyterian (Calvinistic). I am not entirely sure what led to their falling out, and not having read Frank's books, I will not pass judgement on him.

I have, however, read Francis Schaeffer, and his role as one of the spiritual giants of the 20th century is well-deserved. In spite of the caricature of him that some blogs might have us believe, his work was primarily religious in nature, not political. This, of course, is not to say that he did not take part in politics, but to characterize his work as essentially political would be wrong.

He recognized the enormous damage that had been wrought on Western civ. by both atheistic modernism and pan-whatever-ist postmodernism, and sought to bring the concept of truth back into the public square. As a religious person, he taught that, ultimately, the remedy for the anger and despair in the heart of postmodern man (you know, the people here!) is truth, or Christ.

Now ... if some later conservatives misunderstood him and tried to "force" Christianity upon people, then I'm sure Schaeffer would be upset. But he was a great man and a huge influence on Christians who are concerned with society and culture.

Hope I cleared that up, and was able to summarize a large body of work in a very small nutshell.

Wild Cobra
03-24-2008, 07:28 PM
pfffffffff.......ask and ye shall receive....

McCain Spiritual Guide Accuses Gov't Of Enabling 'Black Genocide'...
Really...

Did McCain ever claim this man to be his MENTOR for 20 years? How long did McCain know him. Words in context are important here.

I didn't watch the link, I'm running low on time, so I hope I didn't jump to the wrong conclusion.