Game Thoughts: Spurs vs. Celtics Mar. 17

[timvp]

Well, I was wrong. I guaranteed that the Spurs would win tonight against the Boston Celtics and it didn’t happen. The Spurs came out roaring and quickly built a 22-point lead – only to stumble and give it all back. I’m not sure how it evaporated as quickly as it did but the Celtics proved that their best record in the NBA is no joke.

First I have to tip my hats to the Celtics. That team is really, really good. Extremely good. The scary thing is they remind me of championship Spurs teams of the past. They win with stifling defense and great offensive execution. As of this second, I’d rate the Celtics as the team with the best chance to win the championship.

Their recent signing of Sam Cassell is already paying dividends. He’s a clutch shooter and he’s a player who can score no matter the circumstance. Cassell was the Celtic most responsible for pulling Boston out of the 22-point hole and then hit the game-winning jumper. Amazing game for a guy who is even older than Robert Horry – if you can believe that. Whenever Cassell decides to hang it up, Spurs fans all over the globe will breathe a sigh of relief. He’s been killing the Spurs for 15 years now.

If the Celtics have a weakness, I think it’s ironically enough their biggest strength – Kevin Garnett. When it was money time, Garnett didn’t look like he wanted any part of the action. Against the Spurs over the years, he has usually shriveled up in clutch moments. He looked like the same ol’ KG in that regard. Superstar for 45 minutes, role player for the final three minutes.

The Spurs officially have Spurs Nation in full panic mode. Four losses in a row late in the season? Six losses in their last seven games? This is uncharted territory for these Spurs. The effort is there from the team, it’s just not translating into positive production on a consistent basis.

It’s not time to drain the river and blame the Even Year Curse just yet. The Spurs are healthy and they have the personnel to get it done. If the consistency can be raised on both sides of the court and Pop can find a rotation that works, the Spurs can turn this streak around. That said, it’s going to take a lot of hard work. If nothing else, the confidence of this team has to be shaken after recent events.

Overall, I’m concerned and worried about the team. They are on a slippery slope headed toward the basketball graveyard. One misstep and Spurs fans could be scrambling to brush up on their draft knowledge.

-Tim Duncan was flustered by the Celtics’ defense. Boston came out of the gates daring Duncan with single-team coverage. After Duncan toyed with them early on, the Celtics changed it up and starting sending boatloads of help. Duncan never readjusted and instead simply disappeared. He finished with ten points, eight rebounds and three blocked shots, while shooting 4-for-8 from the field. Considering he wasn’t in foul trouble, it was just a very un-Duncan like performance. I’m confident he’ll turn it around but the Spurs need that turnaround to be ASAP. Duncan putting up a Rasho Nesterovic-esque line won’t get it done.

-Manu Ginboili played really well. His energy and scoring touch helped fuel the team to its 22-point lead. Coming off the bench once again, Ginobili exploded onto the scene upon entering the game. He had 18 of his 32 points in the first half. In the second half, he didn’t play as well as he played in the first half but he played good enough. Ginobili had some positive plays and negative plays in crunch time but that could be said for everyone on the court for the Spurs. On the night, Ginobili finished with 32 points, four rebounds and two assists, while shooting 10-for-18 from the floor, 4-for-7 from beyond the three-point arc and 8-for-8 from the free throw line.

-Tony Parker played great at the beginning of the game. He pushed the action and had the Celtics on their heels. His constant penetration was perhaps the biggest reason for San Antonio’s success early in the game. However, Parker took his foot off the gas and was never able to rev it back up again. He couldn’t help the Spurs wake their stagnant offense in the second half. Defensively, he played poorly against Rajon Rondo. Lately, Parker has either been into it defensively and played well or zoned out and ignored his defensive responsibilities.

-Bruce Bowen hasn’t been quite the same since his suspension. He’s not as aggressive as he was before – almost as if he’s holding back. This same exact thing happened the last time he was fined and it took a couple games (and a scolding from Pop) to get him back into the right frame of mind. Bowen right now is defending to not cause trouble and he can’t have success that way. He has to go all out and if he gets suspended again, the Spurs will just have to deal with it. He defended Pierce decently but his usual relentlessness wasn’t there. Offensively, he hit 2-of-5 shots and 1-of-2 three-point looks for a total of five points.

-Fabricio Oberto was back in the starting lineup for the Spurs. After seeing what Kurt Thomas could do in the starting lineup, I actually like Oberto better as the starter for the Spurs. He’s a better passer and has good chemistry with Duncan and Parker. Defensively, he’s not as good as Thomas but he’s more mobile. Duncan and Thomas together, as I feared when the trade was made, is an extremely stationary duo. Oberto isn’t exactly Jesse Owens but he’s fluid enough to move out on the perimeter when needed. Against the Celtics, I thought Oberto played rather well. His stats don’t look special (four points, three rebounds in 17 minutes) but he showed more heart than he had in the last two weeks combined.

-It’s sad to see a player reach the point of no return but it looks like we might be at that point with Michael Finley. Both offensively and defensively, he just doesn’t look like he has anything to offer. It started a few weeks ago when he all of a sudden lost most of his lateral quickness. Since then, there’s been a rapid decrease in production. Back in the starting lineup, Finley did next to nothing in his 27 minutes on the court. He fished 1-for-5 with two points, one rebound and one assist. Playing with Finley on the court right now is like playing four-on-five. He just can’t do anything. Hopefully he’s just battling a minor injury or is out of it mentally because if this is him giving 100% effort, it's over for him.

-Ime Udoka played 24 minutes off the bench. He started off nailing his first two shots from the field. However, Udoka then missed his final five field goal attempts to finish 2-for-7 with six points. The good news is that he looked a lot better defensively than he did before taking time off to deal with his ankle injury. His movements were a lot freer and he was jumping better. Although he only had one rebound, he did have three steals and a block.

-Kurt Thomas came off the bench and he played well. I think it’s just a much better fit to use Thomas as Duncan’s backup. He can hold down the fort defensively with Duncan out and then offensively, he’s able to play good pick-and-roll basketball with Ginobili and Parker. Tonight, Thomas had three points, four rebounds and an assist in 15 minutes of action. We’ll see if Pop continues to use him off the bench or again tries him at starter at some point later in the season.

-Jacque Vaughn apparently got his backup point guard job back as Damon Stoudamire didn’t play. I think it was a very good decision by Pop because Stoudamire’s play of late had really been hurting the team. Against the Celtics, Vaughn actually played really good offensively. He had four points and three assists and took little time to re-adjust to his old role. Defensively, Vaughn got lit up by Cassell. While Cassell has lit up a lot of guards over the years, it would have been nice to see Vaughn not let Cassell erase the lead practically by himself.

-Robert Horry played 13 minutes of solid basketball. He missed a desperation three-pointer at the buzzer that could have given the Spurs the victory, but besides that he did a good job. In those 13 minutes, he had seven points, six rebounds and one assist. Even though Oberto and Thomas are quality options, it appears like Horry is once again the bigman who Pop will go with to close out games until further notice.

-I was really happy with how Pop altered the rotation. Ginobili and Thomas to the bench were correct moves. Oberto as a starter makes sense. Finley as a starter doesn’t make much sense but in Pop’s defense, he doesn’t really have another option until Brent Barry returns. Tonight, I think we finally got a glimpse of a real playoff rotation out of Pop.

When the Celtics went small in the fourth quarter, Pop responded by going small. I don’t think that was a horrible decision but I do think he made a mistake in going with Finley in the small ball lineup. Udoka or even Vaughn would have been better options.

I don’t have any major beef with Pop after this game. I was happy to see him alter his rotation and he didn’t overwork any of the Big Three. Small ball was questionable but it wasn’t the reason the Spurs lost. The Spurs, for whatever reason, just can’t sustain their play right now. I don’t know if it’s fatigue, a lack of confidence, boredom, old age or something else. They hit a wall during a game and then it’s a slow death until they eventually flat line at the end of the game.

The bottomline is the Spurs are in trouble. I was worried going into the seven-game stretch that the Spurs just completed, but I didn’t think the team was going to go 1-6 during that stretch. While the upcoming schedule is still somewhat difficult, it’s much easier than the stretch they just finished. It’s time to buckle down, sack up and get back on the winning track. It starts Thursday in Chicago.

Believe.

[GrandeDavid]

I also feel pretty humbled, having been all but sure the Spurs would stomp the Celtics into the hardwood and fight their way out of this rare late season swoon. Wow. Was I ever wrong! Didn't watch the game but followed online and became frustrated at what seemed to be turnover after turnover down the stretch. And I hate singling out guys, but Michael Finley is really become a tough liability...fast.

Anyway, I'm upset with this team but have been a fan long enough to know that they can streak the other way and turn it around.

[Udrihlooms]

Thanks timvp for the (now) objective, unadulterated assessment that we are in dire situation right now.

I always like it sugar-free coming from you! :clap

[roycrikside]

It's the same pattern for the Spurs every goddamn game. When Manu starts the bench is horrible and they're the reason we lose. When Manu goes to the bench the starters are horrible and they're the reason we lose. Look at the +/- of the starters today. They all suck, especially Bowen and Fin. Then look at the bench guys +/-.

It was exactly the same thing the last time Manu was on the bench, against Phoenix.

We shouldn't have played small, and even if we did, we should have gone with Udoka in there instead of Fin. At least Udoka can grab a rebound every once in a while.

Also, I'm happy that Tony has rediscovered his offense, and he's shooting better, and the passing is coming back slowly but surely, but his defense is KILLING the team. He has been awful in his own end for quite a while now. What happened to the guy who shut down AI last May? What happened to the guy who guarded Barbosa so well?

Every team we play, regardless of how mediocre their points are (Rondo, Miller) are having him for lunch. Whatever he gets on one end, he gives back and then some on the other end. Not Spurs basketball. What are we gonna do in the playoffs? Every West team has a quality point it seems, and even Houston has Alston who can bomb threes if not covered.

I don't understand why Pop hasn't lit into him for his defense yet (or anyone on the team for anything it seems) but if he doesn't show more effort there, the season is over. And hopefully Barry can come back by Friday and be into the flow the week after that and be our starter for 24 mins a night, because even if he can't guard anyone, neither can Finley but at least Barry can hit open shots and space the floor a little. We need Manu to stay on the bench to have a bench and we need our starters to not flat out suck the 16 minutes a game Ginobili doens't play.

[Streakyshooter08]

Thanks! :tu I like that Tony looks better again. If he is healthy and Gino gets his energy back I think the Spurs could still make a run. That said, I hope the Spurs get some wins ASAP. Denver is not far behind and the Spurs still have 2 tough weeks ahead of them.

[duncan228]

It's been re-hashed all over the place, thanks for once again putting it in a logical format.

I believe, I really do.
I don't think it's blind faith. This team knows what it takes, they have what it takes, and most importantly they've done it before. This has been a horrible stretch of games for them. I think they'll use it to their advantage. They've got 2 days to regroup. I think they'll come out of it on Thursday and there will be no looking back.

[romsho]

Their recent signing of Sam Cassell is already paying dividends. He’s a clutch shooter and he’s a player who can score no matter the circumstance. Cassell was the Celtic most responsible for pulling Boston out of the 22-point hole and then hit the game-winning jumper. Amazing game for a guy who is even older than Robert Horry – if you can believe that. Whenever Cassell decides to hang it up, Spurs fans all over the globe will breathe a sigh of relief. He’s been killing the Spurs for 15 years now.

Believe.
I thought Pop waited way too long to put Bowen or Udoka on Cassell...that is the last guy you want to mess with and let get hot. It was obvious right away that Jacque Vaughn couldn't handle him. He shot them right back in the game.

[duncan228]

Oh...:lol

This is going to go over real well with some people.


Duncan putting up a Rasho Nesterovic-esque line won’t get it done.

[timvp]

Thanks timvp for the (now) objective, unadulterated assessment that we are in dire situation right now.

I always like it sugar-free coming from you! :clapPutting my long range thinking cap on, I do think the Spurs will be fine. Looking at the pieces and the big picture, I don't think the current situation will even be remembered whenever the final chapter of this team is written.

However, right now it sucks and the Spurs are definitely in trouble. They may not even be able to reach those long range projections I have for them if they don't turn it around. Looking at the Spurs in only as far as how they're currently performing, it's tough to have much excitement at all.

[duncan228]

Does anyone know what the tape on Duncan's left index finger is about?
It's been on a few times lately but not every game.
I have to think it's nothing but I can't find anything about it and he's not known for being taped like that.

Also, I can't find a word from Duncan after this game.
If anyone has something please let me know.
It looks like he didn't speak but I don't want to miss it if he did.

Thanks.

[timvp]

It's the same pattern for the Spurs every goddamn game. When Manu starts the bench is horrible and they're the reason we lose. When Manu goes to the bench the starters are horrible and they're the reason we lose. Look at the +/- of the starters today. They all suck, especially Bowen and Fin. Then look at the bench guys +/-.

It was exactly the same thing the last time Manu was on the bench, against Phoenix.

We shouldn't have played small, and even if we did, we should have gone with Udoka in there instead of Fin. At least Udoka can grab a rebound every once in a while.

Also, I'm happy that Tony has rediscovered his offense, and he's shooting better, and the passing is coming back slowly but surely, but his defense is KILLING the team. He has been awful in his own end for quite a while now. What happened to the guy who shut down AI last May? What happened to the guy who guarded Barbosa so well?

Every team we play, regardless of how mediocre their points are (Rondo, Miller) are having him for lunch. Whatever he gets on one end, he gives back and then some on the other end. Not Spurs basketball. What are we gonna do in the playoffs? Every West team has a quality point it seems, and even Houston has Alston who can bomb threes if not covered.

I don't understand why Pop hasn't lit into him for his defense yet (or anyone on the team for anything it seems) but if he doesn't show more effort there, the season is over. And hopefully Barry can come back by Friday and be into the flow the week after that and be our starter for 24 mins a night, because even if he can't guard anyone, neither can Finley but at least Barry can hit open shots and space the floor a little. We need Manu to stay on the bench to have a bench and we need our starters to not flat out suck the 16 minutes a game Ginobili doens't play.ROFL. Gotta love the "Manu is the whole team" take followed by the "Parker sucks on defense" take, all the while ignoring that Teflon Ginobili's defense as of late has forced Parker into taking on a larger than usual defensive burden.

[duncan228]

"Teflon Ginobili's defense." :lmao

[polandprzem]

Ginobili finished with 32 points, four assists and two assists...
A special player with special stats!

Other teams are just too quick. The spurs can't find a way to open the guys up. Boston is realy quick in rotatons plus they thowing the best double team on Duncan possible, with closing the most common passing lanes. On O they have too much gunner on the team. Spurs don't have any.

I've watched the Rox game against LA, their passionate defense and unbelivable ofense is what deermines todays (NBA) basketball, and it all started with Suns. Although the suns had not much of a success back then, right now that kind of basket is the most effective.

Spurs have no long reabounds. Nothing much changed inplus after the last spurs-celtics visit.

[urunobili]

this team has always needed something to fix... something to be wrong... to put it all together... i am a Believer... thanks timvp

[The_Game]

the fact boston were also without ray allen makes this loss even worse. I've said it before...the spurs will not beat the celtics in a 7 game series and this games has done nothing to change that. hell S.A may not beat any of the top teams in a 7 game series

[TampaDude]

To build a 22-point lead...that's an eight-possession lead, folks...at home...and then choke it all away and have to hope for a miracle 3-bomb to win it at the buzzer is INEXCUSABLE...good teams, quality teams, championship teams just DO NOT DO THAT!!! This game should have been an easy win for the Spurs with Allen out. I think they are just burnt...they play well enough to win for most of the game, and then fold like cheap lawn chairs in the 4th...they just don't seem to have the energy to hang for the whole 48 minutes anymore.

Also, about Finley...hey, Findawg...we love ya, bro...but YOU SUCK this year...time to sit your ass down, fondle your ring, and collect your two checks...and maybe think about retirement???

[Obstructed_View]

The effort is there? Only for 20 minutes or so. That won't cut it.

[vanvannen]

Very dissapointing loss indeed. I just almost didn't realize how fast Boston was erasing the lead until the Spurs were down 1 in the 3rd and I was like WTF??
I'd like to say I see any signs of the team coming together but right now, there are just too many things that seem wrong.
The defense is just terrible. Not only Tony, but Gambling Ginobili, Finley and even Timmy and BB are not getting it done at all.
I just don't see the light, man.

[MoSpur]

They got too relaxed. That's typical at times for the Spurs, but they usually pull it out after relaxing. Not this time though. The Celtics are for real obviously. I cannot stand Cassell. He reminds me too much of 1995.

[wildchild]

I don't know about Finley in starting lineup, but moving Manu out and coming off the bench he played better, his stats looks really good and his games are improving.
I guess Thomas is a solid Duncan's backup much better than Oberto for this reason I just wish Pop doesn't make more moves in starting lineup. Oberto needs a confidence's shot every time after those moves.

Good decisions right moves but we chalk up another loss?

By the way, do you know what happened in the 3rd quarter?
yeah, we sucked. other reason as to why? defensive? ofensive? as far as I know, both. :rolleyes

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

what's awesome is that the Nuggets won't likely face the Spurs in the playoffs, assuming the Nuggets get in.

In reality i don't think either team wants to face each other in the 1st round. I'd be alot more confident this time around but i was confident the last time and the Spurs just flexed their championship muscles :lol

At the moment im just hoping the Nuggets scrape into the playoffs but i never thought the Spurs would be battling anywhere below the 3rd seed.

[1Parker1]

I can't believe Timvp was ok with Pop's rotation. There were times when he put in Vaughn for defensive purposes to close out the 2nd Quarter and 3rd Quarter. He has Michael Finley in there with 3 minutes left in the game, getting crunch time minutes which is absolutely unreal. He made no adjustment at halftime to get Duncan free from the aggressive double teams. Spurs coming out flat in the 2nd half for so many games is partially do be blamed on poor coaching. Continuing to put so much faith in Horry and giving him more and more minutes in these last 6 games over Thomas and Oberto and even Bonner is also questionable coaching.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

Emotional loss. Four losses in a row is tough to stomach, especially late in the season when the team should be getting ready for the playoffs.

Am I worried? You have to be a little bit worried because there will come a time when the Spurs just don't have it anymore. However, I just don't think we've reached that point in time.

The Spurs are definitely struggling right now but the pieces are still there to make a championship run. Tim Duncan is struggling but the man always picks it up for the playoffs. Always. He's not going to go down without a fight once the postseason starts. He's healthy, he might be fatigued at the moment, but he's healthy.

Tony Parker struggled with injuries all year but he's almost all the way back. He has that burst again that makes him extremely difficult to defend. He can play as well as he did last playoff run. There's no reason he can't.

And Manu Ginobili is better than ever. The Spurs won a championship last year and Ginobili wasn't playing anywhere near as well as he's playing right now. Today, Ginobili can score 35 points and make it look routine.

Bruce Bowen's defense is still top of the line. If he falls off at any point, the Spurs have a backup defender in Ime Udoka ... which is a luxury the Spurs have never head in their previous championship runs with this group.

Fabricio Oberto, Kurt Thomas and Robert Horry form an impressive and multi-dimensional group of options to put next to Tim Duncan. The Spurs have never had this quality and depth of bigmen to put next to Duncan since David Robinson to retired. And I'm not even including Matt Bonner, who has shown glimpses of high production this season.

Out of Michael Finley and Brent Barry, the Spurs will be able to find at least one shooter who is able to knock down shots. These are two of the better shooters in NBA history. Even if individually they aren't what they used to be, combined at least one of them will be able to help the team.

Jacque Vaughn proved last year that he's good enough to win a championship. He got better as last season's playoffs went along and I expect him to be even better this year in the postseason. If Vaughn falters, Damon Stoudamire is a guy who can come in, run the offense and spread the court.

At the helm, Pop knows what he's doing. He knows what buttons to push with these guys. While Spurs Nation is panicking, the Spurs and Pop are not. The Spurs are the only team in the league who go without gameday practices. Pop is going to do what he needs to do to keep this team fresh -- especially mentally fresh.

I still have supreme confidence in this group. It's not going to be easy but I wouldn't bet against the Spurs. They know how to win championships. When it's money time, I'm glad that this group is my horse in the race.

They got this.

Believe.

I'm very sad you Timvp cave in to the pressure of a lot of posters for having talked with your heart last night when you posted the above. At the end of the day, heart is all that matters and this team will get through this as you well said it yesterday.

For those who don't believe or are talking about sinking ships and be "real"; those I will hold accountable for their words up to this moment. The spurs will once again prove them wrong and we will know who really is a real fan after this. Don't lose your hopes despite the apparent odds - don't compare against the past, every instance is different but the heart has always been there. There has to be more than one reason other than they "suck" to justify the current situation.

I'm very sorry for those who have attacked you in this way. Very sorry.

[MoSpur]

I kind of agree with giving more minutes to Finley is a no, no right now, but who else do they have? Hopefully when Barry comes back, he will be able to take some of those minutes away from Finley.

[1Parker1]

^At this point you ride out a combo of Bowen or Udoka until either fouls out. You can play Bonner, Horry, and Duncan along with Parker and Ginobili.

[GrandeDavid]

Fans reserve the right to get up or down on their teams. They pay the tickets and buy the merchandise without the large salaries, in most cases. Its the nature of professional sports. So I'm glad that Spurs fans are pissed off at the team's performance. It certainly doesn't make them any less of a "true" fan.

[Obstructed_View]

^At this point you ride out a combo of Bowen or Udoka until either fouls out. You can play Bonner, Horry, and Duncan along with Parker and Ginobili.
Still haven't gotten an explanation why Pop seems to think Finley is an effective power forward.

[MoSpur]

Playing Bowen and Udoka more together will happen I think once the playoffs near or start. I think Finley's minutes will drop once the playoffs start and if Barry starts rolling like he was most of the season.

[Obstructed_View]

I think Finley's minutes will drop once the playoffs start
I'll believe it when I see it. My avatar shows my confidence in Pop's vision.

[Ballcox]

One thing I've been seeing lately that has happened to coincide with the team's troubles is that TD is getting into that wait and see approach in the post.

He's backing up, backing up and waiting to see what the defense does. Too many times last night he would wait on the defense to dictate what he did instead of being proactive and forcing the issue himself.

I know he's not as young as he used to be and not quite as mobile. But, I would like to see Tim force the action at times and put the other team's defense on their heels.

Get the ball in the post and make quick moves to the basket. Face up the defender and make quick moves to the basket. Tim isn't getting to the FT line nearly enough and he is still fully capable of making the other team's defense react to what HE does.

I've seen him take this type of proactive approach in the past and other teams have had some realy difficulties in dealing with him when he plays this way. Just a thought........

[MoSpur]

^
Sean Elliott is always saying that when Tim tends to do that. I agree. At times he waits too long to make a move or pass.

[Fabbs]

You don't have to play slowdown offense when you're up 22 and then up 9 with 5 minutes to go. Very dissapointed in Pops ordering it slowed down. Very obvious after one Celts miss whereupon Tony was running it upcourt and Pop ordered him to stop and then ordered Poppycock conservaball. The shot clock expiring is inexcusable. No i do not attribute that to Celtics D. Pops stop n veg offense makes the players indecisive, all it accomplishes is feeding opponents agressiveness, lets opponents rest while Stand n Veg is being employed. Tims holding the ball is ridiculous.

Seriously blown game.

[MoSpur]

You still have to give credit to the Celts though. That team pulled together and played good defense on the Spurs.

[LEONARD]

Great game last night...very entertaining :fro

[DarrinS]

timvp's posts are the best reads on this forum. He doesn't sugar-coat anything.


Calling a spade a spade doesn't mean you're quitting on the team or whining -- you're just calling it like you see it.


Great breakdown of the game. Sam Cassell single-handedly brought the Celtics back into the game. Before he entered the game, the Celtics looked a little shell-shocked and it showed in their body language. Sam comes in and immediately hit several jumpers and suddenly cut the lead in half. His play and, more importantly, his leadership, will be important for the Celts in the playoffs.

[ShoogarBear]

For those who don't believe or are talking about sinking ships and be "real"; those I will hold accountable for their words up to this moment. The spurs will once again prove them wrong and we will know who really is a real fan after this. Oh, bullshit.

Don't challenge anyone's credentials as a "real fan" because they don't agree with you. You will come across looking like an idiot.

[stéphane]

Tough loss indeed...
Even if you're homer and what some call "true fan" you've got to be objective about the spurs performance and admit the team is displaying a lot of flaws.
The effort on the defensive end is sometimes nowhere to be found and as a spurs fan, it's not something we're used to see by the end of march.
Pop needs to settle the rotation asap. Let's hope the upcoming (and easier) schedule will allow that.
We need wins no matter what.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

-Tim Duncan was flustered by the Celtics’ defense. Boston came out of the gates daring Duncan with single-team coverage. After Duncan toyed with them early on, the Celtics changed it up and starting sending boatloads of help. Duncan never readjusted and instead simply disappeared. He finished with ten points, eight rebounds and three blocked shots, while shooting 4-for-8 from the field. Considering he wasn’t in foul trouble, it was just a very un-Duncan like performance. I’m confident he’ll turn it around but the Spurs need that turnaround to be ASAP. Duncan putting up a Rasho Nesterovic-esque line won’t get it done.



Time for Timmy to put the team on his back and get it done. Make everyone else a role player to his dominance. It's time for post-season Duncan.

[vanvannen]

Time for Timmy to put the team on his back and get it done. Make everyone else a role player to his dominance. It's time for post-season Duncan.

Agreed.

[DarrinS]

And put a spork in Finley. He's done.

[duncan228]

Time for Timmy to put the team on his back and get it done. Make everyone else a role player to his dominance. It's time for post-season Duncan.

It is time.

And I would think he knows it, especially after last night.
This board went nuts, I can only imagine how he felt with his performance on his home court in a game they should have won. He was aggressive to start, he needed to stay that way even with Boston's swarming defense on him. Post-season Duncan makes that adjustment.

We'll see that Duncan from here on out.

[ploto]

He finished with ten points, eight rebounds and three blocked shots, while shooting 4-for-8 from the field.

Duncan putting up a Rasho Nesterovic-esque line won’t get it done.

Rasho had 13 points and 12 rebounds last night. :lol


As of this second, I’d rate the Celtics as the team with the best chance to win the championship.

Going way out on a limb there- huh?

[Ballcox]

Tim is still the centerpiece of this team, everything feeds off him. He can't go for the stats he had last night against one of the best teams in the NBA. It didn't work last night and it won't work in the playoffs if we have any hope of repeating.

And I fully believe that Tim is capable of asserting himself in the post and making quicker decisions and forcing defenses to react to him instead of the other way around.

When Tim is assertive everyone on the team benefits from his play and the added attention he gets.

[Mr. Body]

Overall, I’m concerned and worried about the team. They are on a slippery slope headed toward the basketball graveyard. One misstep and Spurs fans could be scrambling to brush up on their draft knowledge.

Don't count on it. The second part, I mean, where the Spurs manage to brush up on their draft knowledge. They could wind up with the #2 pick and use it on Luc Richard Mbah a Moute.

For my increasingly saddened money, the season ended last night. That was a gut-check game, the one to say they were here until the very end, that the Spurs were a roadblock to the championship, damn it, and no one was going to knock them down. They looked it at first - come out like gangbusters. But I had the strong sense even then it was going to be a tight game. These guys just don't have it anymore, it's over. The front office failed to make the team younger, more athletic, and talented. The guys on the bench are just old, old, old.

You can't lose a game like this, this late in the season, and it not mean anything. Thursday in Chicago is no big deal, I think they have Sacramento later. With about 20 games left, can they win enough to stay in the playoffs?

[SenorSpur]

One thing I've been seeing lately that has happened to coincide with the team's troubles is that TD is getting into that wait and see approach in the post.

He's backing up, backing up and waiting to see what the defense does. Too many times last night he would wait on the defense to dictate what he did instead of being proactive and forcing the issue himself.

I know he's not as young as he used to be and not quite as mobile. But, I would like to see Tim force the action at times and put the other team's defense on their heels.

Get the ball in the post and make quick moves to the basket. Face up the defender and make quick moves to the basket. Tim isn't getting to the FT line nearly enough and he is still fully capable of making the other team's defense react to what HE does.

I've seen him take this type of proactive approach in the past and other teams have had some realy difficulties in dealing with him when he plays this way. Just a thought........


Excellent take. I've been shouting those instructions at Tim (via the TV) for a couple of years now. I mean WTF is he waiting on? :bang

[mexicanjunior]

For my increasingly saddened money, the season ended last night. That was a gut-check game, the one to say they were here until the very end, that the Spurs were a roadblock to the championship, damn it, and no one was going to knock them down. They looked it at first - come out like gangbusters. But I had the strong sense even then it was going to be a tight game. These guys just don't have it anymore, it's over. The front office failed to make the team younger, more athletic, and talented. The guys on the bench are just old, old, old.

You can't lose a game like this, this late in the season, and it not mean anything. Thursday in Chicago is no big deal, I think they have Sacramento later. With about 20 games left, can they win enough to stay in the playoffs?

x2

At this point, they could go thru the motions and pull out 50-54 wins but losing last night showed me that they no longer have what it takes to win it all, especially not this year with the West being so good. Better to prepare for next year by resting the guys you will need to make a strong drive for the title in 2009 and bettering your draft position...

[SpurOutofTownFan]

Oh, bullshit.

Don't challenge anyone's credentials as a "real fan" because they don't agree with you. You will come across looking like an idiot.

Lol,.. did I hurt your ego?

Bottom line is timvp got jumped on by many because he dared to dream despite the last losses... then he had to tone it down a little bit because everybody was going after him. That's the bottom line.

Hey.. if this forum stole your life, not my fault :hungry:

[T Park]

When the Celtics went small in the fourth quarter, Pop responded by going small. I don’t think that was a horrible decision but I do think he made a mistake in going with Finley in the small ball lineup. Udoka or even Vaughn would have been better options

Agreed.

Udoka until Barry comes back, has to take Finley's minutes just on account of being a better defensive player if anything.

Fin needs to take a few games off.

[T Park]

Get the ball in the post and make quick moves to the basket. Face up the defender and make quick moves to the basket. Tim isn't getting to the FT line nearly enough and he is still fully capable of making the other team's defense react to what HE does.


Hes been doing this since 2000, where have you been? :lol

[ballhog]

Tough loss. Had the lead most of the game and blew it. One thing I can say is, they better go on a nice run again or it'll be over. Another thing, that Celtic team is loaded now with Cassell added in. They're pretty tough---we'll see in a series how it turns out.

[ShoogarBear]

Lol,.. did I hurt your ego?No, only your vanishing credibility.



Bottom line is timvp got jumped on by many because he dared to dream despite the last losses... then he had to tone it down a little bit because everybody was going after him. That's the bottom line.

Hey.. if this forum stole your life, not my fault :hungry:timvp got jumped on because he wanted to get jumped on, or at least start something up. I was just trying to check your stupid belief that you can aribtrate what does and does not constitute a "true fan", since the lifespan of your Spur fandom doubtless doesn't extend past five years, and probably won't extend another five years.

[smeagol]

Agreed.

Udoka until Barry comes back, has to take Finley's minutes just on account of being a better defensive player if anything.

Fin needs to take a few games off.


Somewhere, whottt rejoices . . .

[baseline bum]

I don't think it's laziness or lack of effort by Finley; he's not that kind of player. I think he's just shot. His legs are too old from all those ridiculous minutes Nelson used to play him, and I think the only way to get anything out of him is to significantly reduce his role to occasional minutes off the bench to spread the floor.

[T Park]

I personally think a few days off would fix it.

Thats just my opinion, sorry if it goes against the grain.

[SenorSpur]

I don't think it's laziness or lack of effort by Finley; he's not that kind of player. I think he's just shot. His legs are too old from all those ridiculous minutes Nelson used to play him, and I think the only way to get anything out of him is to significantly reduce his role to occasional minutes off the bench to spread the floor.

This affliction is affecting other players besides Finley. How about Horry, Stoudamire (who didn't even play)?

[baseline bum]

This affliction is affecting other players besides Finley. How about Horry, Stoudamire (who didn't even play)?

Stoudamire sucks. I fully expected him to become Charlie Ward the sequel when he was signed, and now he's living up to that. I've never thought of Stoudamire as the kind of hard-working pro that Finley is.

[yavozerb]

The team is def. in the home stretch in the careers of finley, stoudamire, horry, and thomas...But, right now (during the regular season) is not the time to call these guys washed up, lets see how they do in the playoffs. Hell, if the spurs win it all again some you will probably want these guys back again next season.

[bostonguy]

I’m not sure how it evaporated as quickly as it did but the Celtics proved that their best record in the NBA is no joke.

First I have to tip my hats to the Celtics. That team is really, really good. Extremely good. The scary thing is they remind me of championship Spurs teams of the past. They win with stifling defense and great offensive execution. As of this second, I’d rate the Celtics as the team with the best chance to win the championship.

Their recent signing of Sam Cassell is already paying dividends. He’s a clutch shooter and he’s a player who can score no matter the circumstance. Cassell was the Celtic most responsible for pulling Boston out of the 22-point hole and then hit the game-winning jumper. Amazing game for a guy who is even older than Robert Horry – if you can believe that. Whenever Cassell decides to hang it up, Spurs fans all over the globe will breathe a sigh of relief. He’s been killing the Spurs for 15 years now.

If the Celtics have a weakness, I think it’s ironically enough their biggest strength – Kevin Garnett. When it was money time, Garnett didn’t look like he wanted any part of the action. Against the Spurs over the years, he has usually shriveled up in clutch moments. He looked like the same ol’ KG in that regard. Superstar for 45 minutes, role player for the final three minutes.





Great recap Timvp and thank you for the props. I also liked the bolded part of your recap. The Celts have a very good team. That being said, KG has to be effective if the Celtics want to realistically talk about a championship. I say Paul Pierce is our go to guy in the 4th (along with Cassell) but that will only do so much. This team is going to need KG to be effective in every way when the game is on the line. It truly is what will determine the success of the Celtics. Even if KG had been clutch last night, I wouldnt have been sold until I saw this from him in the playoffs. KG has the best supporting cast he has ever had. Even the 04 Wolves team wansnt anywhere as good as this Celts team. KG doesnt have to carry the team but he cant be relying on Cassell and Pierce and everyone else to get it done. He is going to have to be a factor in a superstar type of way.

In regards to the spurs, sooner or later your shitty inconsistent play is going to end. The Spurs are facing a little bit of a crisis but they can turn it around. Being healthy really gives reason to be optimistic about that. Make the playoffs healthy because seeding in the west really isnt going to mean a god damn thing. Being able to play under pressure and being healthy is all that matters. Homecourt isnt going to cover up for either of those. You are either good enough or you are not. EVERYONE starts at 0-0 once the playoffs begin. Homecourt can easily be lost with a split the first 2 games. You eventually have to win on the road even with homecourt. Plus homecourt doesnt make things much easier. Have faith spurs fans. My team has the best record in the league but they have to prove themselves in the playoffs(ESPECIALLY KG) just like everyone else.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I don't think it's laziness or lack of effort by Finley; he's not that kind of player. I think he's just shot. His legs are too old from all those ridiculous minutes Nelson used to play him, and I think the only way to get anything out of him is to significantly reduce his role to occasional minutes off the bench to spread the floor.
I don't know about that. Seems to me Finley is the kind of player that needs to shoot himself into a streak, meaning he needs quite a lot of attempts to get himself going. For most of his career this has been the case, now, in San Antonio, this isn't possible. It is quite a rare thing to see Finley come out effective from the get go, specially these days. To significantly reduce his already diminished role would quite effectively eliminate Finley's ability to shoot himself out of this slump he's in.

Right now, I'm not sure what can fix Fin. A few days of rest might, although with the packed schedule coming our way, I don't see that happening...

[DarrinS]

I don't know about that. Seems to me Finley is the kind of player that needs to shoot himself into a streak, meaning he needs quite a lot of attempts to get himself going.


The Spurs can't afford to give him 10-12 bricks so that he can make two buckets.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

Stoudamire sucks. I fully expected him to become Charlie Ward the sequel when he was signed, and now he's living up to that. I've never thought of Stoudamire as the kind of hard-working pro that Finley is.
I was hoping Stoudamire would prove my feelings wrong about the acquisition but now that Pop's benched him, looks like he didn't take advantage of proving his worth in time and is just going to be dead-weight? for the most part unless he responds well to being benched in favor of Vaughn against Boston..we'll see.

[roycrikside]

ROFL. Gotta love the "Manu is the whole team" take followed by the "Parker sucks on defense" take, all the while ignoring that Teflon Ginobili's defense as of late has forced Parker into taking on a larger than usual defensive burden.

I never said he's the whole team. I understand it's not a championship recipe for Ginobili to be far and away the team's best player. But if Duncan can't get it going and the role players can't hit open shots, what are we supposed to complain about exactly?

I simply pointed out that when he's a starter the bench sucks and when he's a bench guy the starters suck. The +/- on the game logs tells the story, so argue if you want to look silly.

Larger than usual defensive burden? WTF does that even mean? He has to guard his guy and Ginobili's guy? I guess it was Manu's fault that Rondo went off, Miller lit us up, and Hamilton before that, and Paul before that. Exactly when was the last time the guy Tony was supposed to guard not had a great game?

Pop very recently praised Manu's defense and said this year is the best D he's ever played. I don't recall any such statements coming from him about Tony.
In fact in YOUR OWN recaps you've praised Manu's defensive efforts in half of our recent games. Meanwhile, you've flat out called out Tony's on numerous occasions.

I agree with your own posts and you still insult me? WTF.

I made three points in my post.

1) Manu needs to stay on the bench
2) Fin needs to not play anymore, period, especially in small ball lineups.
3) Tony's defense has been abysmal ever since he returned from injury.

Which of the three do you disagree with again?

[thispego]

can we clone ginobili and have him start and come off the bench?

[T Park]

I think what the Spurs need more than anything is this.

2 days off, a blowout win so the starters rest, and in the garbage time, let Finley shoot to his heart's content.
Feed him, get him his stroke back, and then it will be all good.

[ShoogarBear]

can we clone ginobili and have him start and come off the bench?
That would be great, then we could have CoSM vs. CoBM arguments.

[DarrinS]

I think what the Spurs need more than anything is this.

2 days off, a blowout win so the starters rest, and in the garbage time, let Finley shoot to his heart's content.
Feed him, get him his stroke back, and then it will be all good.


Gring on the Grizzlies.

[roycrikside]

I think what the Spurs need more than anything is this.

2 days off, a blowout win so the starters rest, and in the garbage time, let Finley shoot to his heart's content.
Feed him, get him his stroke back, and then it will be all good.

Who are we supposed to blow out exactly? We're not playing well enough to blow out anybody. And even if we did get a 20 point lead, running the offense to accentuate that sweet shooting stroke of Michael Finley sounds like a surefire recipe to turn a blowout into a nail biter real fucking quick.

[SenorSpur]

[B]Well, I was wrong. I guaranteed that the Spurs would win tonight against the Boston Celtics and it didn’t happen.


Don't feel bad. Sean Elliott did the same thing. Apparently, his comments caused an uproar with many viewers of the game, but I got no problem with the proclamation. I just he'd have been right.

Another great summary, too! :clap

[SenorSpur]

Don't count on it. The second part, I mean, where the Spurs manage to brush up on their draft knowledge. They could wind up with the #2 pick and use it on Luc Richard Mbah a Moute.

For my increasingly saddened money, the season ended last night. That was a gut-check game, the one to say they were here until the very end, that the Spurs were a roadblock to the championship, damn it, and no one was going to knock them down. They looked it at first - come out like gangbusters. But I had the strong sense even then it was going to be a tight game. These guys just don't have it anymore, it's over. The front office failed to make the team younger, more athletic, and talented. The guys on the bench are just old, old, old.

You can't lose a game like this, this late in the season, and it not mean anything. Thursday in Chicago is no big deal, I think they have Sacramento later. With about 20 games left, can they win enough to stay in the playoffs?

X3.

Can't argue with Mr. Body's points here.

As much as I hate the term "statement games", this was certainly one. Championship teams are supposed to demonstrate intestinal fortitude. Should execute down the stretch and impose their will on the opposition. All the elements that we've seen in past Spurs championship runs. The Spurs played championship-caliber ball for about 2 quarters. This was against a team that is favored to represent the East in the NBA Finals. A team that just beat you a month ago on their home court. No extra motivation needed.

The absence of all these factors, I believe, has nothing to do with losing the corporate knowledge or a lack of desire. I just think the age, mental fatigue and deep runs the past few years have caught up with several members of this team. The absence of key bench contributions has placed more of a tremendous burden on the big three than ever before. I think the results are the diminished returns that we are now seeing.

[T Park]

Who are we supposed to blow out exactly? We're not playing well enough to blow out anybody. And even if we did get a 20 point lead, running the offense to accentuate that sweet shooting stroke of Michael Finley sounds like a surefire recipe to turn a blowout into a nail biter real fucking quick.

Well sunshine they have Chicago thursday, thats potentially one right there....

But go on making up the noose, no one will stop you.

[thispego]

That would be great, then we could have CoSM vs. CoBM arguments.
ohh those battles would be epic

[bigfundamental21]

Bottom line is that this game was an important game to win and since we caved at the end, it does spell some serious trouble. But like most people here, I do still believe. I know that this team has it in them to make a run and to have a strong showing in the playoffs. We will need to see a fierceness in this team that has not really shown itself this season, with the exception of Ginobili. Hopefully, a late season matchup with the Mavs on Sunday will get us in the right frame of mind. It is go time. We are at the point of no return and without that killer instinct, there will be no repeat. I believe we will find it. In the Spurs I trust.

[Spurs Brazil]

I don't think it's laziness or lack of effort by Finley; he's not that kind of player. I think he's just shot. His legs are too old from all those ridiculous minutes Nelson used to play him, and I think the only way to get anything out of him is to significantly reduce his role to occasional minutes off the bench to spread the floor.

Agree

We always read articles about how hard Finley works, especially when he isn't playing well.

I agree with T Park. Get him a week or two of rest.

I thought Finley was done last season and he did a great job in the Playoffs. I still believe in Fin

[wildbill2u]

In the first quarter they had great ball movement but the rest of the game they were dribbing around on the perimeter.

I don't know if the change was because of Boston's defensive adjustment or whether they just forgot what got them that big lead.

[timvp]

I'm interested in ShoogarBear's take on the current status of the Spurs. As far as I've seen, he hasn't come out with his current take on the team. I've seen him say timvp is on drugs and how Spurs fans should be worried but I haven't seen a complete take.

It would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[Brutalis]

Random: If anyone bets in the next vbookie here is some advice. Well on a Spurs next game to be specific.

Want double or get lots of easy money? If you have under 2,500 bet it all on the Spurs, if you have more half it.

Thank me later.

[GrandeDavid]

Instead of hearing amateur schmack, I think I'll use this rare free time to I have to rock the LA Slum Lords on GH3.

The Spurs will turn it around and I'm sticking with them to rep the West in the Finals.

[carina_gino20]

Pop very recently praised Manu's defense and said this year is the best D he's ever played. I don't recall any such statements coming from him about Tony.

On Parker’s defense on Iverson in fourth quarter - “Allen is a hall-of-fame player and he’s going to make runs and he’s going to make baskets but Tony never got down and played him, played him, played him. Bruce took the pressure off him for a little while and Tony got back on him and was fantastic.”

http://www.nba.com/spurs/news/quotes_080310.html

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Just like to point out that for the last week I've been calling for:
-Oberto to start,
-KT to be Tim's backup,
-JV to take backup duties (and MM to drop into a hole and disappear),
-Manu to go to the bench,
-Ime/Barry to take over starting SG, and Fin to find a permanent seat,
-Bonner to take Horry's minutes.

Horry played well, so I got that one wrong, but the other moves were right and well overdue... not that it matters, since we still lost, but at least we were more competitive.

Pop has to bring Barry back in (maybe straight in as a starter), sit Finley for good, and settle on this rotation. Give the players a chance to get comfortable again! Right now, they look like they have no confidence (as well as being old and slow). The only hope for this season is that the team GETS ITS SWAGGER BACK. Otherwise, first round exit here we come... :depressed

[it's me]

Are the Spurs the only team in the world that send to the bench one of the best playes of the team, and start the one that sucks big time????? Don't jump on me with the "spark from the bench shit"

[ShoogarBear]

I'm interested in ShoogarBear's take on the current status of the Spurs. As far as I've seen, he hasn't come out with his current take on the team. I've seen him say timvp is on drugs and how Spurs fans should be worried but I haven't seen a complete take.

It would be appreciated.

Thanks.Well, obviously I don't think the Spurs are just fine. There are some issues which actually have been brewing at least since last season, but they caught a break since they ended up not having to face Dallas or Detroit in the playoffs. (No problem with that, it makes up for the bad breaks of 04 and 06).

On defense, the troubles have been discussed ad nausium. They're older, and the decision to rely on corporate knowledge rather than some new young legs has hurt them there. In the playoffs, I actually anticipate that they'll do a bit better, if only for the fact that everyone tightens up in shooting.

Offense is a bigger concern. The Spurs are more reliant on the 3-pointer and jump shots than any time in their history. And correspondingly doing less in the paint than at any time in the TD era

2008 FTA 21.9 3PA 20.3
2007 FTA 24.1 3PA 19.0
2006 FTA 23.0 3PA 16.6
2005 FTA 25.8 3PA 17.0

Look at that. Nearly as many 3P attempted as FTs. Yeah, the FT% is better, but guess what? Shooting 70% on 24 FTs a game is better than shooting 76% on 22 FTs a game. Not just because of the 0.1 PPG increase, but because of getting other teams in foul trouble, and because it's an indication that your not just shooting jump shots.

Relying on three pointers and jump shots is a recipe for failure in the playoffs, yet that's what the Spurs have become. And what's our biggest hope for improvement? The return of Brent Barry to give us better outside shooting. Barry obviously does more than hit threes, but he's the difference between a deep run in the playoffs and getting bounced in the first round?

Rebounding actually was improved this year over last, but seems to have taken a plunge recently along with everything else during the slump.
Kurt Thomas, who should have been a perfect fit, hasn't made a big an impact for reasons that aren't clear. Stoudamire? LOL. Although I blame Pop for fixing something that didn't need fixing by changing what he was doing.

I think TD, Tony, and Manu (if he gets rest) will probably be okay for the playoffs. But the Spurs are otherwise relying on Finley and Horry to somehow play in a way that they've given no indication they're capable of for most (or all) of the year. And I'd be shocked if Barry's back at much more than 80%.

[roycrikside]

On Parker’s defense on Iverson in fourth quarter - “Allen is a hall-of-fame player and he’s going to make runs and he’s going to make baskets but Tony never got down and played him, played him, played him. Bruce took the pressure off him for a little while and Tony got back on him and was fantastic.”

http://www.nba.com/spurs/news/quotes_080310.html

in a shocking coincidence, that was also our last win.

[slayermin]

(Excuse the metaphor.)

Like two lovers that haven't slept together in a while, Manu and TP need some time to find each others hot spots again. Last year, especially in the playoffs, it seemed like they shared the ball in a more efficient way. They made sure the defense had to worry about the big three every time down the court.

The last few games, I've noticed that Manu becomes passive when TP has it going, or TP decides to let Manu take over for a while when he has the hot hand. But the bottom line is that we aren't winning the championship unless these two work into an orgasm together.

[bostonguy]

Well, obviously I don't think the Spurs are just fine. There are some issues which actually have been brewing at least since last season, but they caught a break since they ended up not having to face Dallas or Detroit in the playoffs.

Last years Pistons lost to a 1 man team. They werent going to prevent the Spurs from the championship.

Dallas you can speculate all you want on.

[Korny Earl]

Last years Pistons lost to a 1 man team. They werent going to prevent the Spurs from the championship.

Dallas you can speculate all you want on.
:tu

[Capt Bringdown]

Relying on three pointers and jump shots is a recipe for failure in the playoffs, yet that's what the Spurs have become. And what's our biggest hope for improvement? The return of Brent Barry to give us better outside shooting. Barry obviously does more than hit threes, but he's the difference between a deep run in the playoffs and getting bounced in the first round?

Good analysis.

But we've always relied on jump shots haven't we, as part of the inside-out attack?

We've often been cursed with shooting woes it seems, especially during even years. I'm convinced if we could have had a guy like Cassell on our team the past few years we'd have at least 2 more titles.

[whottt]

Offense is a bigger concern. The Spurs are more reliant on the 3-pointer and jump shots than any time in their history. And correspondingly doing less in the paint than at any time in the TD era

2008 FTA 21.9 3PA 20.3
2007 FTA 24.1 3PA 19.0
2006 FTA 23.0 3PA 16.6
2005 FTA 25.8 3PA 17.0


That's a simply a case of more touches for Manu and Parker and teams not respecting our outside shooting.


Barry will most definitely help that...even Mike D'antoni doesn't double off him.









Relying on three pointers and jump shots is a recipe for failure in the playoffs,

Not having guys that can hit thres and J's is a bigger recipe for failure.


Sin,

David




yet that's what the Spurs have become. And what's our biggest hope for improvement? The return of Brent Barry to give us better outside shooting. Barry obviously does more than hit threes, but he's the difference between a deep run in the playoffs and getting bounced in the first round?


He's the difference between a triple team or a double team for Duncan...or sometimes no double team at all.


Even if he only gets in the game for 5 minutes, that can stretch the defense and open up the paint, force a team to change it's scheme.


Of course it'll help having one of the best 3 shooters in NBA history on the court.

Threes help, even if it's only the threat of a 3, just like they helped Hakeem...and Jordan, and Robinson and Duncan, and Shaq, and virtually every other guy to win an NBA title since they were instituted in the NBA.


That's why some of us having been making such a big deal about the three and the impact it has on our post season success(as well as a guy like Barry)....for years now.


You know it won't be so confusing if you stop being so resistant to giving Barry any credit...


We had Hedo, who is much more talented and a better defensive player, but his disrespected shot cost us a repeat.


We basically replaced him with Barry and won a title...and Barry was our main back up guard rotation in 05.

It helps.


I promise you...you will never see Phil Jackson doubling off Barry...Barry shoots better against the Lakers than any other team in the league for his career.




Anyone want to run some stats on our scoring prior to Barry going out of the lineup VS since?


I don't have to look to know both it and our FG% our down considerably...as well as Duncan's FTs.


Because it's a hell of a lot easier to cover up the fouls you are commiting on a guy, when you are putting multiple defenders on him.


Sin also,

David



Is it bothersome that one guy can make that kind of a difference? You bet...but it's true nonthless.

Got to have shooting if you want a title...


If you got shooting? You won't have to shoot it as much....and it makes Duncan's job easier.

[slayermin]

As great a threat TD is in the paint, it could be argued Brent Barry commands the same attention beyond the arc.

I just hope Brent is healthy enough to play. And if he is, someone tell Pop not to yell at him this time.

[whottt]

As great a threat TD is in the paint, it could be argued Brent Barry commands the same attention beyond the arc.

Well I don't know about that...Duncan can command 3 defenders in the paint.


But to have a role player that cannot be doubled off of...at all...that is a huge benefit to Tim Duncan...not to mention Manu and Parker's ability to get into the paint.


I know everyone likes Finley...but he gets sagged off of...and he misses those shots often, or he'll force a bad one. Even when he's hot he's not great threat to knock down an open shot and he still takes bad shots.


Finley is a guy that if he's hot...he'll hit shots with someone in his face...but if he's not hot, he'll miss open shots all night long as well...and more importantly, Finley will jack up junk at any point.


Barry will help our offense...he has since the day he stepped on the court for this team. He's better offensive player than Pop is an offensive coach...and probably more knowledgable.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

While I always felt the concept of Barry being the Spurs "savior" was a bit overblown, I am somewhat hopeful that he might provide a Kyle Korver type spark (probably to a lesser degree) and take this team over the hump.


We're in desperate times.

[slayermin]

Well I don't know about that...Duncan can command 3 defenders in the paint.

I guess that's my way of saying he is money from three. Isn't there a drill the Spurs run in practice where Brent hit like 97 out of 100 shots from different spots on the floor?

I agree with everything else you posted. He's a bigger more versatile Steve Kerr.

I have watched the last game against the Lakers a few times.

[whottt]

While I always felt the concept of Barry being the Spurs "savior" was a bit overblown, I am somewhat hopeful that he might provide a Kyle Korver type spark (probably to a lesser degree) and take this team over the hump.


We're in desperate times.


He's not a savior in that he's going to take over the game like Manu or something...


It's just role players that the opposing D must respect, really help the stars do their jobs...and they aren't that common.


The Spurs have 2 of them in Barry and Horry...neither one of those guys is going to be doubled off of in a playoff situation. If Horry is 90 years old, you see him getting doubled off of, it'll be a blown rotation, because no coach in control of all his faculties is going to tell a man to leave him.


And the thing is...if the ball does get forced into their hands...they won't jack up a bad shot with it, they'll do something smart with it(last night's rare goof by Horry excepted).


Those little details are the difference between a good or slightly struggling offense, and a completely stagnant one.



IF you assume all stars are good enough to win titles...it's the role players that ultimately decide things. It always has been true for the Spurs.


Tim Duncan? He's been good enough to win a title every year of his career...and when he has the role players that come through, or that are respected by opposing teams, he does so. When he doesn't...he gets raped in the post via triple team and gets held to 9 points or has 10 turnovers.

[timvp]

Well, obviously I don't think the Spurs are just fine. There are some issues which actually have been brewing at least since last season, but they caught a break since they ended up not having to face Dallas or Detroit in the playoffs. (No problem with that, it makes up for the bad breaks of 04 and 06).First of all, thanks for the reply. You brought up some valid points.

I agree that the Spurs caught a break by avoiding Dallas but to throw Detroit into the mix is stretching it I'd say. Detroit was a flawed team last year because they relied on Chris Webber. Webber is the worst type of player to have on a team. He's good enough to play and demand the ball but he chokes offensively, sucks defensively and is an a-hole in the lockerroom. He's basically Antoine Walker without the three-point shot.

Now this year's Detroit team is a contender because Webber isn't on the team. Last year, the Spurs beat the Pistons in five ... at most six.


On defense, the troubles have been discussed ad nausium. They're older, and the decision to rely on corporate knowledge rather than some new young legs has hurt them there. In the playoffs, I actually anticipate that they'll do a bit better, if only for the fact that everyone tightens up in shooting.Defense is probably my biggest worry right now. However, it's really the only aspect of the game where you can actually "flip a switch". Last year the Spurs were pretty bad defensively and couldn't buy a rebound, and then the playoffs started and they become very good defensively and great at rebounding. Banking on that again this year is risky and is the thing I think most likely to derail their championship chances, but luckily there is precedence in their favor.


Offense is a bigger concern. The Spurs are more reliant on the 3-pointer and jump shots than any time in their history. And correspondingly doing less in the paint than at any time in the TD era

2008 FTA 21.9 3PA 20.3
2007 FTA 24.1 3PA 19.0
2006 FTA 23.0 3PA 16.6
2005 FTA 25.8 3PA 17.0

Look at that. Nearly as many 3P attempted as FTs. Yeah, the FT% is better, but guess what? Shooting 70% on 24 FTs a game is better than shooting 76% on 22 FTs a game. Not just because of the 0.1 PPG increase, but because of getting other teams in foul trouble, and because it's an indication that your not just shooting jump shots.I'm never really concerned about the Spurs' offense. The Spurs are a defensive team who at playoff time will find enough ways to score to win. When you have Duncan, Parker and Ginobili, you are going to score the ball in the playoffs. If they're healthy, the offense will be fine.

The only aspect of the offense that I worry at all about is knocking down open shots, which is the aspect that a team can't control. In 2004, there was nothing wrong with the offense, they just couldn't knock down an open shot. If their shooters didn't absolutely choke, they easily move on to the next round. But yeah, wide open three-point shooters missing isn't really classified as bad offense to me.

And with this team, I don't have much fear in the three-point shooters choking. Bowen has shot better in the playoffs in every year of his Spurs career. Ginobili is shooting the three better than ever. Barry earlier in the year had finally stopped hesitating and began firing away. Even Finley, although he's clanging away, is shooting exactly the same 3P% that he shot last year at this time. All the Spurs need is for at least two of these guys to hit their open threes somewhat consistently. I trust that will happen.

Those are interesting numbers you point out regarding the reliance on three-point shooting and the affect it has had on getting to the line. However, I think the slight bump up in three-pointers attempted is explainable. Ginobili is playing more minutes this season and his game has been more three-point heavy than ever. Finley, mainly due to injuries, has also had to play more minutes and therefore jacking up more threes. Add in Parker missing a lot of time and that 5% increase in three-pointers attempted per game is pretty much accounted for.

Now the free throws attempted is a more pressing concern. However, the good news is that Ginobili and Parker are getting to the line more often than last year, which is important. The player who is not getting to the line is Duncan. The reason for that is pretty much a mystery. He's shooting in the same places ... he's not going to the line. Perhaps it's a Joey Crawford backlash or perhaps it's just bad luck. Whatever it is, it's not because Duncan has changed what he's done. In the playoffs, I guess Spurs fans just have to hope those calls return.

Outside of the Big Three, the rest of the players just don't go to the line that often. That was the case last year and that will likely be the case this year. However, the good news is that Kurt Thomas is a player who can get to the line, which is something the Spurs haven't had since Nazr's playoff run. Plus, the next best Spur at getting the line last season was Barry. He might help in that department.

But really, the bottomline regarding free throws is that is an aspect that the Big Three has to handle. Each member of the Big Three will get to the line more than the whole rest of the team combined. Come playoff time, I expect them to handle the ball even more which should result in more free throws than we've seen during the regular season.


Rebounding actually was improved this year over last, but seems to have taken a plunge recently along with everything else during the slump.
Kurt Thomas, who should have been a perfect fit, hasn't made a big an impact for reasons that aren't clear. Stoudamire? LOL. Although I blame Pop for fixing something that didn't need fixing by changing what he was doing.The Spurs sucked rebounding the ball last year and became a great rebounding team in the playoffs. The Spurs have been a great rebounding team all season this year until their recent slide. Even after their recent slide, they're still the best defensive rebounding team in the league. So I don't expect rebounding to be a problem in the playoffs. It might actually be a strength for the first time since Robinson retired.

I do agree about Stoudamire. Pop destroyed him. With that in mind, I think Vaughn is actually one of the biggest weak spots on this team. The average Spurs fan vastly overrates him, IMO. He's pretty damn bad ... but compared to what Stoudamire has become, he looks like Andrew Toney.


I think TD, Tony, and Manu (if he gets rest) will probably be okay for the playoffs. But the Spurs are otherwise relying on Finley and Horry to somehow play in a way that they've given no indication they're capable of for most (or all) of the year. And I'd be shocked if Barry's back at much more than 80%.I think the Spurs have enough options to survive a flameout by either Finley, Horry or both. As long as Bowen and Ginobili healthy, the Spurs only need one of Finley, Barry or Udoka to play well. I don't think that's asking too much ... but I guess we'll see. Last year, Barry shot blanks in the playoffs for the most part and the Spurs survived it. They didn't even have a fifth swingman to look to, which Udoka will provide this playoff run.

Regarding Horry, I don't think the Spurs rely on him nearly as much as they did from 2004-2007. Pop relied on him so much during that era because the Spurs literally had no other bigman that Pop would trust to close out games. Now Pop has shown a trust in Oberto to close out games. Pop has also said Thomas is a guy who he'll trust to close out a playoff game. The Spurs entered the last four postseasons with only one big outside of Duncan who Pop trusted. Now the Spurs have at least two, maybe three. On top of that, Udoka has shown an ability to rebound as a small ball four that the Spurs haven't had in the past, which gives Pop another option to go to if Horry doesn't come up big.

Besides the mounting losses, I don't see much on paper to make me think the Spurs' chances have diminished too much from what I thought going into this season and now. Age has been my main concern since Day 1 and it remains a concern. Specifically, I'm worried that age will make this team not as good defensively as we've seen in the past. If Bowen or Duncan lose a step or some of the role players become absolutely worthless defensively, that could spell the end of the season for the Spurs. We'll see if the Spurs can still pick up their defense in the playoffs when they need to. If they can't, I think it'll be a sign that age has finally caught up to the team.

Offensively, I never really worry about this team. The Big Three are just too good for the Spurs to lose because of their offense. Yeah, maybe back when it was Duncan, an injured DRob and ten role players then offense could be a problem. But with Duncan still looking like the best bigman in the game, Ginobili playing out of his mind, Parker still young enough to improve and the clutch shooters on the team, I completely trust that the offense will be there when it counts.

[whottt]

War and Peace - Unabridged Edition

[BIG z]

Please Get Timmy The Ball, Please I Beg U..

[Darth Celtic]

Celtics beat the shit out of the Spurs... as expected, since the Celtics are superior to the Spurs. OBVIOUSLY BOSTON WAS GONNA WIN THE GAME.

[Allanon]

Celtics beat the shit out of the Spurs... as expected, since the Celtics are superior to the Spurs. OBVIOUSLY BOSTON WAS GONNA WIN THE GAME.

Superior teams don't trail by 22 points in the first quarter. That game was a Big Shot Rob miracle away from a Celtics loss.

And I'll say it now, Celtics going down against the Mavs on Thursday.

[The_Game]

the mavs look too lost to beat the celtics. more so when ray allen is expected to return.

[Obstructed_View]

Just like to point out that for the last week I've been calling for:
-Oberto to start,
-KT to be Tim's backup,
-JV to take backup duties (and MM to drop into a hole and disappear),
-Manu to go to the bench,
-Ime/Barry to take over starting SG, and Fin to find a permanent seat,
-Bonner to take Horry's minutes.

Horry played well, so I got that one wrong, but the other moves were right and well overdue... not that it matters, since we still lost, but at least we were more competitive.

Pop has to bring Barry back in (maybe straight in as a starter), sit Finley for good, and settle on this rotation. Give the players a chance to get comfortable again! Right now, they look like they have no confidence (as well as being old and slow). The only hope for this season is that the team GETS ITS SWAGGER BACK. Otherwise, first round exit here we come... :depressed

The moves you suggested worked perfectly until Pop decided he was a hall of fame coach and put a smallball lineup in the game with Finley at power forward. If they actually stick to what works, and everyone plays with effort they can win games easily. That sort of flies in the face of your suggestion that they were just too old and tired and were playing teams with superior talent like the Sixers.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

I'm interested in ShoogarBear's take on the current status of the Spurs. As far as I've seen, he hasn't come out with his current take on the team. I've seen him say timvp is on drugs and how Spurs fans should be worried but I haven't seen a complete take.

It would be appreciated.

Thanks.
:toast

[timvp]

I never said he's the whole team. I understand it's not a championship recipe for Ginobili to be far and away the team's best player. But if Duncan can't get it going and the role players can't hit open shots, what are we supposed to complain about exactly? How about Duncan not getting it going and the role players not hitting open shots?


I simply pointed out that when he's a starter the bench sucks and when he's a bench guy the starters suck. The +/- on the game logs tells the story, so argue if you want to look silly.I couple games doesn't a precedence make. And, again, no the whole team doesn't revolve around Manu.


Larger than usual defensive burden? WTF does that even mean? He has to guard his guy and Ginobili's guy? I guess it was Manu's fault that Rondo went off, Miller lit us up, and Hamilton before that, and Paul before that. Exactly when was the last time the guy Tony was supposed to guard not had a great game? My point is that Parker has been picking up the one-on-one defensive slack for Ginobili since Parker returned from injury. Why do you think he was defending Hamilton to begin with? Pop doesn't put Ginobili on players who go around screens because it takes away too much energy. Why do you think Parker guarded Iverson? Usually it's the shooting guard who defends Iverson. Yet Pop put Ginobili on Anthony Carter or whoever other scrub the Nuggets to put out on the floor to save Ginobili energy.

You can't come with the Ginobili is the bestest ever and the whole team revolves around whether he starts or comes off the bench and then bash Parker's defense when Parker has been picking up the defensive slack for Ginobili lately.


Pop very recently praised Manu's defense and said this year is the best D he's ever played. I don't recall any such statements coming from him about Tony.
In fact in YOUR OWN recaps you've praised Manu's defensive efforts in half of our recent games. Meanwhile, you've flat out called out Tony's on numerous occasions.

I agree with your own posts and you still insult me? WTF. Again, a few game stretch isn't enough to come to the conclusions you made in your response. The problem regarding the starters against the Celtics was Duncan pretty much sucked and Finley was worthless.


I made three points in my post.

1) Manu needs to stay on the bench
2) Fin needs to not play anymore, period, especially in small ball lineups.
3) Tony's defense has been abysmal ever since he returned from injury.

Which of the three do you disagree with again?Read your first paragraph again and tell me which of those three points that "Ginobili is the team" diatribe goes under.

Regarding those three points, I agree with Ginobili coming off the bench. I'm not 100% sold that Finley is done but if he struggles for a few more weeks and Barry comes back healthy, I have no problem switching their roles.

And regarding Parker, his defense hasn't been abysmal since his return. That's an exaggeration. His defense in his first 11 games back was either average or good. Which of those games did you have a problem with?

If you want to look at the last four games, then it's fair to say Parker's defense has been poor. But to say his defense has been bad since his return just isn't reality.

[timvp]

actually Manu can guard Hamilton the reason Pop put him on Chauncy is because Chanucy is too big for Tony to guard!Parker always guards Billups to start off games. He guarded him for about 95% of the 2005 Finals. And now, Parker is a lot stronger than he was back then.

Parker guarded Rip because Bowen was out of the lineup. Bowen is the player who defends against opponents who go around a lot of screens. If Bowen isn't available, Parker is the next in line. When has Manu ever been put on a player who uses screens regularly?


Pop also put Manu on Carter because he was in foul trouble in the first half against Denver. Also, Tony can guard Iverson pretty well because of his foot speed.Manu is never put on AI or Carmelo for any stretch of time.


Everyone knows Tony can't guard Big point guards he just doesn't have the weight for it.That was true years ago but it's no longer the case.

The gameplan in each game is to put Ginobili on the weakest offensive player on the other team. That allows Ginobili to roam and not worry too much about his main defensive assignment.

[Agloco]

Anyone want to run some stats on our scoring prior to Barry going out of the lineup VS since?

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89216

[polandprzem]

I was going to ask lj that he did not put up the 3/4 grades. Or I missed something?