Poker straight or flush

[Fabbs]

Texas Hold Em.

When and what determines if you stay in the pot going for a straight or flush?

[ATRAIN]

Are you pot commited? What cards do you have? What's on the table?

[Tippecanoe]

i almost always fold on a straight draw. its not worth it.

[Fabbs]

Various.

1. When you draw two of the same suit. How high do they have to be?
Of course i know it depends on the bet etc. Just looking for generalities.

2. When you hit 4 of 5 after the flop. Do you stick around for the final two cards or not? What are the odds of picking up straight or flush after 4 of 5?
I'm told it's only 18% in an 8 person hand. I'm going to read the book by the math know it all, Sagowski or similiar last name. I'd still like to know what you do.

3. When you're still at 4 of 6 after the turn. What keeps you in to see the final river card?

I know the basics like if you have the Ace, of course that beats all other flushes. I'm looking for odds, math etc on what determines whether to stay / how long to chase a straight or flush.

Suited connected is best odds I'm told.

[Fabbs]

i almost always fold on a straight draw. its not worth it.
True but then how irritatiog is it when you stay in with two pair or three of a kind and someone hits their straight on the river? I'm not talking about 3/6 or ever 4/8 or even 18/20. I consider all those to be "bingo" and not true poker. And yes i know to bet high early on pairs or threes so as to drive out the chasers. But some seem to chase no matter what. Maybe it's their unlimited trust fund.

No limit.

[SequSpur]

It just depends what the cards are, how many people are in, how many chips you have, are you on the big or small.... There are many factors... sometimes it's easy or better to just wait for the next hand rather than trying to hit a home run.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Let's play some poker! ;)

[Heath Ledger]

You Will Hit A Flush Roughly 30 Percent Of The Time If You Flop 4 To A Flush.

If Someone Bets Out Half The Pot Or Less You Generally Call. If They Bet The Pot Or More You Fold. Also If There Is A Caller Before You Its An Easy Call.

Sometimes If Its Checked To You You Bet Out With Your Flush Draw This Is What Is Known As A Semi Bluff, Cuz You Have A Few Ways To Win, You Can Take It Down Right There But You Also Have At Least 9 Outs To Improve To A Flush Plus Other Outs That Can Hit Your Hand. If They Show Weakness, You Have To Judge Are They Trying To Checkraise You, You Should Ask Did They Raise Preflop? Read The Board, Are There Rags? Were Any Of The People In The Pot Limpin In The Blinds In An Unraised Preflop? If So You Need To Be Very Careful Because They Could Have Just About Anything.

I Could Go On And On. I Make A Good Side Income Playing Poker Both On The Internet And Live In Casinos.
Not A Pro By Any Means But Ive Won About $18k In The Past Year. So Far This Year Its About $5k+

[Heath Ledger]

Also If You Flop Trips And There Are 2 Of A Suit On The Board Not In Your Hand. You Get Your Money In While Its Goo, Even If The Person Hits On You, Its Still The Right Play. Raise Raise Raise If You Flop Trips And There Are Two Of A Suit Do Not Slowplay You Trips Ever On A Suited Board!

If You Bet The Pot Or 1.5-2x The Pot And Get Called Thats Okay They Are Putting There Money In Bad As They Will Only Hit Their Flush Roughly 30 Percent Of The Time So You Are A 70 Percent Favorite!

Play This Way Every Time Over The Life You Your Poker Playing You Will Come Out Way The Fuck Ahead Against The Dummies Chasing Their Draws At Bad Pot Odds.

Another Thing Are We Talking Cash Games Here Or Tourneys?

[TDMVPDPOY]

i usually go all in b4 the flop, thats if alot of ppl are playing calling that hand,

try and reap the benefits on the bluff, then i start to play it slowly for the following hands.

in most cases i wont allow them to see the next card after the flop, or if im in a situation where im chasing for 1 more card after the flop? ALL in.

GO HARD OF GO HOME, THIS IS A MANS GAME

[Heath Ledger]

bad advice.

[MannyIsGod]

sigh

[E20]

I just play. I don't understand the strategy in Poker, if I think I'm gonna win the hand I bet, if I don't I fold. I don't try all this bluffing BS never works for me.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

sigh

:lol Indeed.

If anyone in this thread, listen to Heath.

To the rest of you, as I said, let's play! :)

[Heath Ledger]

any time..

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I don't want to play with you Heath, just the others... ;)

[Heath Ledger]

Why not you will only get better by playing against better players.

[scott]

sigh

A lot of other people have already nailed it... there are a lot of variables.

For example, if you are Manny and you are going for any kind of draw (or even if your hand is made) but Scott is also in the pot, you should probably fold... even if it is to a check.

[MannyIsGod]

Unless you have pocket 8s, then just push preflop.

[Jimcs50]

pot odds and implied odds determine your decision.

You have 9 outs to hit a 4 flush after the flop and 8 outs to hit an open ended straight....that extra out for the flush gives you about a 4% better chance to catch your card.

When do you go for the flush or straight?


So after the flop, you have about a 36% chance to catch your flush and 32% to catch your open ender by the river.

This is where pot odds and implied odds come into your decision.


Situation A: If there is $50 in the pot and someone bets $50, you need to call $50 to win $100, or 2-1 on your money....so therefore, if you expect no more money in the pot, you fold your hand.

Situation B: $50 in pot, someone bets $50, you have another caller, and it costs $50 to win $150, so you are getting 3-1 on your money, so the pot odds say to call the bet. Implied odds will give you an even better return because if you hit your draw, you can imply that you will win even more money on the next betting round, so you might really be getting 4-1, 5-1 or even better a better return on your $50 call on the flop.

Of course, there are so many more variables in this decision, but this is a good rule of thumb.

[Fabbs]

So after the turn, when the hand is presently at 4 of 6 on the way to s or f, now what are the odds of catching the 5th on the river?

Of course i realize that has variables, ie are you holding onto 9/10 and the table shows 8/J therefore you can straight with the river being either a 7 or Q.

Again I'm just keeping it general, thanks Jim Heath Ruff and everyone.
I'm told the math book by Sagowski (sp?) reveals all the math.
Also a book by Mike Caroll (?) is supposed to have some math.

[Jimcs50]

So after the turn, when the hand is presently at 4 of 6 on the way to s or f, now what are the odds of catching the 5th on the river?

Of course i realize that has variables, ie are you holding onto 9/10 and the table shows 8/J therefore you can straight with the river being either a 7 or Q.

Again I'm just keeping it general, thanks Jim Heath Ruff and everyone.
I'm told the math book by Sagowski (sp?) reveals all the math.
Also a book by Mike Caroll (?) is supposed to have some math.


You count your outs to the straight or flush and multiply by 2, and then you get your chance with just the river to come.

So, if you need a card for a flush, then you have 9 outs, and therefor an 18% chance, a straight has a 16% chance( 8 outs)

You are about a 5-1 dog to get either, so if your pot odds are more than that call....

ie. If there is $200 in the pot and the bet is $30-40, then you are priced in to both draws....ok?

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Why not you will only get better by playing against better players.

I'm fine with my game Heath. Like you, I've made pretty good money on the side playing at casinos. But you are a fool if you have a choice and knowingly choose to play against other competent players... :lol

[Fabbs]

I'm fine with my game Heath. Like you, I've made pretty good money on the side playing at casinos. But you are a fool if you have a choice and knowingly choose to play against other competent players... :lol
Ruff,
on that note, when is the time to catch the lesser players at the casino?
weekdays, weekday nights, weekend days, weekend nights?

[Fabbs]

You count your outs to the straight or flush and multiply by 2, and then you get your chance with just the river to come.

So, if you need a card for a flush, then you have 9 outs, and therefor an 18% chance, a straight has a 16% chance( 8 outs)

You are about a 5-1 dog to get either, so if your pot odds are more than that call....

ie. If there is $200 in the pot and the bet is $30-40, then you are priced in to both draws....ok?
Jim,
I'm still learning but yes i pretty much get what you are saying about pot odds.
It would seem position would also figure in here, you alluded to earlier.
Well, maybe its just the games I've been in but it sure seems a heck of a lot of s and f's win in Hold Em. I'm surmising No Limit gets away from that as well as tournaments that require a 100 or better entry fee with no add ons or rebuys.
The 20-40 entry fees as well as even the higher ones that allow add-ons and re-buys seem to bring that bingo b.s. "stay in no matter what" mentality that leads to s or f on the river.

[Heath Ledger]

To simplify use the rule of 4 and 2. With two cards count your outs and multiply by 4 that is the approximate chance you have of hitting your draw. Its accurate typically within a few percentage points. After the turn card has peeled you now use the #2 to figrure out your odds.

You also have to keep in mind what cards your competitor may be holiding, if you have a j10 of hearts or 46 of hearts and have four to a flush, its pointless to keep drawing if you think the opponents could be betting into you with his higher draw with something like kq of hearts, queen jack etc. You cannot play by just your cards, you have to try to narrow the range of cards your opponent may be holding base on your note taking of his prevoius play and his betting patterns/actions.

Another thing if he bets the flop and you flat call, this pegs you to a very limited # of holdings, if the turn comes a blank that doesnt help your hand, meaning another card of the flush, or pairing the board, you are going to be looking at a very nice sized bet.
When you call its a tell to low pair, mid pair, flush draw, or top pair with weak kicker.

So in review its always very important to consider your oppoents possible holdings when making your decision. Its very dangerous to only think in terms of "if i hit my flush" "straight" cuz nothing is worse than being on the dummy end of a straight or flush and all of your chips are in the middle.

[Heath Ledger]

As far as a good time for playing in Casinos pro's are always looking for fishy games, you are gonna run into solid pros/regulars all the time. You look for signs that they are a regular, if the staff talk to him on a first name basis you know they are a regular and tread with caution. Don't be afraid of them just dont try to be tricky, one trap and they take all of your chips. play them very straightforward and dont try to bluff them.

More times than not they will see thru your bluffs, and more times than not if you try to trap them they will not pay you off unless their ego comes into play which does happen. Always remember this, they miss their flops just as much as you but if you don't hit the flop, quit it and forget it. Don't try to win all of your money on one hand. Solid play will take you far, eventually you will learn when the time is right to pull off the more elaborate plays.

Good beginner books
Phil Hellmuth on Texas Holdem

Any of the books by Phil Gordon (blue book, black book, green book)

For tourney play the bible is

Harrington on Holdem 1 2 3
If you can stomach lots of math Sklansky books are great but its a little too out there for my tastes but you can still pick up some very solid theory in his books as well.

Cash games Harrington has two new books that just came out that i assure you is reccomended reading.

For poker training sites

realpokertraining.com
pokerxfactor.com
pokerschoolonline.com
spadeclub.com

all very solid learning and teaching tools, you invest the money your learning curve will be much less than if you ahve to figure this stuff all out on your own. Also the tutorial videos can be slighty more interesting than reading. Because you can see and hear and visualize rather than reading in hopes of remembering what you've read.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Damn, Heath, you gave away the whole book of secrets! :lol

Thanks for news of the new Harrington books - I'm basically a cash game player. Never know how much to risk at what time in tournaments...

As for rounders, good advice to play them straight. And you know what, once they think they know you they often underestimate your BIG hand if you hit one. I had AK flopped AK8, turn K, and this freakin rounder gave me $600 after playing with me for 4 hours. He obviously had me tagged as harmless while I tagged him for dangerous, and he was so pissed afterwards he had to leave. I just waited for him to be dumb.

My simple rules - never take more than you can afford to lose; play right, not for results; and, if you're not enjoying it any more, time to go home. I rarely win big, but I usually double or treble my $200 by the time I leave the table, andhave a lot of fun doing it. There's a song in that... ;)

[Jimcs50]

play them very straightforward and dont try to bluff them.

More times than not they will see thru your bluffs, and more times than not if you try to trap them they will not pay you off unless their ego comes into play which does happen.

I think the opposite is true, you can bluff the good players and not the fish. My bluffing is much more successful against the good players, because when I bluff, I do it in a way that I would do if I had the hand that I am representing. But if I do it against a novice, they do not see what I am representing and they call with the better hand, lets say top pair.

Example. I have position and I have A K s, I reraise a good player preflop, he calls. The Flop misses me completely 4 8 J, the original raiser bets the size of the pot, I again reraise trying to sell a big over pair, he folds because he sees what I am representing.

Now look at the same scenario against a fish who has AJ

He would probably reraise my raise with his top pair top kicker, not even thinking that I am representing a big over pair, then I have to fold.

This is why early in the night, if I have a huge hand on my reraise and the player folds, I show it, that will allow me to get away with this bluff later.

[MannyIsGod]

If you always reraise me when it looks like I'm just continuation betting I promise you its going to cost you a lot in the long run.

[Jimcs50]

If you always reraise me when it looks like I'm just continuation betting I promise you its going to cost you a lot in the long run.

Manny, you have no chance against me...I will raise you every time...and you will be my bitch.


:)

[Jimcs50]

I only reraise preflop when I have one of the top 5 hands, I will not reraise with a hand that I will not put all my chips in the middle with.

[Heath Ledger]

Im talking about the novice player not somebody who has a pretty good understanding of the game. obviously if you have some board reading abilities you can make plays against a good player or pro, it is NOT a good idea for a novice to do this. He should not be in there playing lots of pots with a pro. As i said and ill say it again, when you start out play a very straightforward game, it will look like you are very tight but that is okay, you may be able to pull off an occasional bluff because of your tight image, but dont bluff a loose player or someone who appears to call all the time.

And don't be that guy who is always calling down with top pair or low or middle pair when there are straights and flushes on the board or if the board has paired.

Another thing is if you are starting to feel uncomfortable at the table and you think a player and or players are starting to bully you get up and leave, nothing says you have to stay there, move to another table if possible (cash game)

[Fabbs]

Heath Ruff Jim and (Manny non smartass version if available),

Thanks again for the input. Books ordered from Amazon, waiting for delivery (Ruff there is hope for me :lol ). I will also post a site that reviews the various poker books, i want to see your guys reaction to his reviews.

Same question as op on straights on the flop. Working example:
I'm holding J8. Flop is 9 10 Q unsuited. Sweet, right? However after the draw, no one upped the blinds and only 3 players went. So the pot was, meh 10 chips. Would you nonetheless put out a large enough bet to chase away any of the Bingo Bettys that want to hang around and possibly flush? Or a JK would have drilled me. I know it's once again many variables, not wanting an exact answer. But generally, with the straight on the flop (hardly ever happens i know but does occasionally) or with the straight on the turn (much more likely), do you tend to put out a large enough bet to ensure you win the pot and blow out the chasers (or make them pay) to chase their flush/boat? Or, when the flop does not show a pair (nor the turn) and does not seem to show any flush or higher straight possibilities do you go ahead and let the pot build to the turn, let a few more chasers hang around?

[MannyIsGod]

Why are you playing J8 without a raise against loose players is my question. You'll help your game a lot more by fixing bad preflop leaks (hint - j8 is a bad preflop leak) than by worrying about post flop play on weird hands like that.

[Jimcs50]

Why are you playing J8 without a raise against loose players is my question. You'll help your game a lot more by fixing bad preflop leaks (hint - j8 is a bad preflop leak) than by worrying about post flop play on weird hands like that.

Manny there are many reasons why you can play J8. One, he could have been in the blinds with no raises ahead of him, or there was a min raise and he would be getting 6-1 odds to call with 3 others in the pot.

To answer you question, Fabbs, I always bet on a flop if I do not have the nuts, if I have a probable winner. This will tell you where you are in the hand. If someone raises, they you throw slow down, because of the JK possibility. I would not fold to a raise with the 2nd nuts though.

[Heath Ledger]

Many factors to consider but you cant be results oriented like what if i let somebody draw to a flush, the next card comes putting a 2nd of a suit on board, then u may consider a larger bet but when you flop a striaght you dont want to waste it, id thorw out a little fishy bet making it look like your taking a stab at the pot, in hopes of the person rasing you, in which case you can jump right back on top of him with a large reraise.

So in summary if im first to act i may check sometimes hoping to check raise, or i may bet a small amount looking like a stab in hopes of being raised so i can snap off their neck.

If there are two of a suit on the flop you can bet the pot to try to take it down, if they still call you know they probably have a middle pair, some people will take another card with bottom pair but not usually for a pot sized bet. If they do call your pot sized bet your against top pair maybe weak kicker, medium pair or someone slowplaying a higher flopped straight in this situation. On the next street a good sized raise will tell you exactly what is the case as they will either fold or probably raise, a 2nd call usually means your in trouble.

This is just my interpretation of the situation without knowing many other factors such as how the opponent has been playing etc.

But as Manny says j8 is generally not a great hand unless you are in late position and there has already been one or two other limpers, or no limpers and you try to steal the blinds. Other than that they go in the muck unless you can play them without a raise in the small or big blind. Even if they were suited i would throw them away except in the few mentioned above occasions.

[Fabbs]

Good beginner books
Phil Hellmuth on Texas Holdem

Any of the books by Phil Gordon (blue book, black book, green book)

For tourney play the bible is

Harrington on Holdem 1 2 3
If you can stomach lots of math Sklansky books are great but its a little too out there for my tastes but you can still pick up some very solid theory in his books as well.

Cash games Harrington has two new books that just came out that i assure you is reccomended reading.
Heath i believe you and have ordered them. What do you all think of this guy
Nick Christenson as a reviewer?
http://www.thepokerforum.com/bookreviews.htm

For example his review of Phil Hellmuth Presents Read 'Em and Reap
http://www.thepokerforum.com/bookreviews57030207.htm#


Also the tutorial videos can be slighty more interesting than reading. Because you can see and hear and visualize rather than reading in hopes of remembering what you've read.
Which videos? Found where, at the training sites?

[Heath Ledger]

Im not familiar with Nick Christenson, doesn't mean hes's not a credible reviewer ive just never heard of him. The videos im talkinb about are on the training sites i mentioned. Also there are tons of free ones up on youtube. Don't buy Helmuths black blet poker course, its a scam id spend the money on his first book before buying those videos.