All-NBA First Team [Archive] - SpursTalk.com Forums

JMarkJohns

03-24-2008, 03:31 PM

Amare played center for more than half the year. When he was center, he averaged 23/25 ppg, 9 rpg, 2+ bpg and shot 55%. Oh yeah, before the trade, Phoenix was actually tied for the best record in the West.

I wouldn't put him ahead of Garnett amongst PFs, but between he and Howard, I can see Amare getting it. Had Ming stayed healthy, i think this was his year, but it's tough to reward someone with this honor for only 55 games worth of play.

AZLouis

03-24-2008, 03:38 PM

Paul
Kobe
James
KG
Howard

2nd team

Williams
AI
Melo
Amare
Duncan

3rd Team

Nash
Joe Johnson
S. Jax
Boozer
Bosh

FromWayDowntown

03-24-2008, 03:43 PM

I'm not altogether convinced that Duncan has had an All-NBA type of year. I suspect that Duncan will, however, be a 2nd or 3rd team selection.

himat

03-24-2008, 03:44 PM

PG-Chris Paul
SG-Kobe Bryant
SF-LeBron James
PF-Kevin Garnett
C-Dwight Howard

JMarkJohns

03-24-2008, 03:46 PM

PG-Chris Paul
SG-Kobe Bryant
SF-LeBron James
PF-Kevin Garnett
C-Dwight Howard

I do think this is the likeliest five.

Amare's making a late push, but since it comes at a different position than his pre All-Star break stats, will it hurt his chances?

Xylus

03-24-2008, 03:51 PM

resistanze

03-24-2008, 03:54 PM

Yeah Garnett will more than likely get the nod @ PF. Amare's late season explosion gives him a chance to overtake Howard, too, although unlikely.

monosylab1k

03-24-2008, 03:57 PM

Player 1: 18.8 ppg, 9.6 rpg, 3.5 apg, 1.27 bpg, 1.43 spg, 53.4% FG, 78.7% FT, 2.1 TO
Player 2: 24.6 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 1.3 apg, 2.23 bpg, 0.80 spg, 58.4% FG, 79.5% FT, 2.2 TO

Player 2 is having the better year statistically, particularly in the 2nd half of the year, while Player 1 is the better defender. I think you can make the case for either player.
that's the understatement of the century.

Player 1 works his ass off at an almost obsessive level on defense, while Player 2 hardly shows up at the defensive end with the exception of the occasional SportsCenter whoring block/pose.

RonMexico

03-24-2008, 04:08 PM

I think what's even funnier is that the first time Dirk ever played defense, he got hurt.

Xylus

03-24-2008, 04:15 PM

Player 1 works his ass off at an almost obsessive level on defense, while Player 2 hardly shows up at the defensive end with the exception of the occasional SportsCenter whoring block/pose.
Then this must be the overstatement of the century.

ludda

03-24-2008, 04:23 PM

Dirk is not as bad as a defender as people make him out to be.
Amare could be a decent defender and he probably will be in the near future, seeing as how it may be the thing to get him the MVP he thinks he deserves.
And KG is a great defender, but hardly the lockdown defender that many make him out to be.

monosylab1k

03-24-2008, 04:26 PM

Then this must be the overstatement of the century.
No it's just the general understanding of everybody who pays attention to the NBA that doesn't wave purple-and-orange pom poms. It's tougher to see when you're a homer.

JamStone

03-24-2008, 04:26 PM

PG-Chris Paul
SG-Kobe Bryant
SF-LeBron James
PF-Kevin Garnett
C-Dwight Howard

x2

I don't think there's much of a debate with any of those selections.

monosylab1k

03-24-2008, 04:29 PM

I think what's even funnier is that the first time Dirk ever played defense, he got hurt.
:lol

then again, maybe that explains the microfracture surgery for Amare, and his complete aversion to anything on the defensive end after that.

Xylus

03-24-2008, 04:29 PM

No it's just the general understanding of everybody who pays attention to the NBA that doesn't wave purple-and-orange pom poms. It's tougher to see when you're a homer.
You know me so well, Mono. :wakeup

monosylab1k

03-24-2008, 04:31 PM

You know me so well, Mono. :wakeup
so you're telling me Amare is a good defensive player? if so, you took a long hard drink of that purple Kool-Aid.

Xylus

03-24-2008, 04:34 PM

so you're telling me Amare is a good defensive player? if so, you took a long hard drink of that purple Kool-Aid.
I don't think I've ever said Amare is a good defensive player. He's a slightly subpar defensive player, mostly because he doesn't play with any consistency at that end of the floor.

But I don't believe he's the worst defender in the league or anywhere near it, like you preach.

monosylab1k

03-24-2008, 04:35 PM

He's a slightly subpar defensive player
Guys that can be described like that don't belong on First Team All NBA

stretch

03-24-2008, 04:45 PM

I don't think I've ever said Amare is a good defensive player. He's a slightly subpar defensive player, mostly because he doesn't play with any consistency at that end of the floor.

But I don't believe he's the worst defender in the league or anywhere near it, like you preach.
slightly subpar? give me Dirk's defense any day of the week. at least he somewhat tries. Amare just sits around with a dumb look on his face.

Kriz-Maxima

03-24-2008, 04:49 PM

PG-Chris Paul
SG-Kobe Bryant
SF-LeBron James
PF-Kevin Garnett
C-Dwight Howard

That would be mine too.

dbreiden83080

03-24-2008, 04:50 PM

x2

I don't think there's much of a debate with any of those selections.

Uh yeah there is TD has had a better year than KG has. He is putting up beter stats and playing in the much tougher conference. The Celts record in that god awful East does not impress me one bit.

dbreiden83080

03-24-2008, 04:52 PM

Paul
Kobe
Lebron
Duncan
Howard

When Amare figures out what D is he can be on the first team.

monosylab1k

03-24-2008, 04:52 PM

I like Hollinger's words

The book on Nowitzki's defense is in serious need of a rewrite. While he's not a physical force, his dexterity and length have enabled him to become a quality player at that end, especially in zones. He's also added a strip move that's very effective against post players, and he's an underrated defensive rebounder who has comfortably beaten the league average for power forwards the past three seasons.

Defensively, he still needs work, but he improved a lot over the course of last season. He upgraded his post defense -- he will be put to the test in that department now that Kurt Thomas has been traded -- and his effort level increased considerably. That said, he could be a lot more active from the weak side, and considering his athleticism he's a fairly poor shot-blocker. He also won't give a foul to stop a basket.

td4mvp21

03-24-2008, 04:54 PM

PG-Chris Paul
SG-Kobe Bryant
SF-Lebron James
PF-Tim Duncan
C-Dwight Howard

That's how it should be but I bet Duncan and Howard get snubbed for Amare and Garnett...

RonMexico

03-24-2008, 04:56 PM

Hollinger doesn't realize that Amare is in foul-trouble so much that it's useless for him to "give up a foul to stop a basket." If Amare did that, then Hollinger could talk about what a foul prone player he is.

Also, Dirk did not develop a strip move.... he stole it from Karl Malone.

dbreiden83080

03-24-2008, 04:57 PM

PG-Chris Paul
SG-Kobe Bryant
SF-Lebron James
PF-Tim Duncan
C-Dwight Howard

That's how it should be but I bet Duncan and Howard get snubbed for Amare and Garnett...

I don't see how KG is getting on the first team. HE is putting up like 19 and 9 a game those are lows he has not seen in like a decade. He plays on a real good team in a insanely awful conference.

td4mvp21

03-24-2008, 05:02 PM

I don't see how KG is getting on the first team. HE is putting up like 19 and 9 a game those are lows he has not seen in like a decade. He plays on a real good team in a insanely awful conference.

You seem to forget that the media loves to suck his dick. The only reason you hadn't heard a peep in the last 2-3 years was because his team sucked ass and Garnett basically quit giving full effort, while Duncan's teams were winning titles. I don't think he deserves it, Duncan is better than him overall and puts up better numbers.

resistanze

03-24-2008, 05:17 PM

Garnett isn't a bad choice by any stretch of the imagination.

He's playing a career low (excluding his rookie year) 33.7 minutes a game so his numbers will take a hit. Bottom line is the Celtics have the best record in the NBA (23-5 against the WEST) and the media loves them.

Duncan was my sentimental pick because he's my favorite player, but he's likely not getting on the First Team unless they decide to snub Howard at the C position, which won't happen (All-Star position debacle?).

JamStone

03-24-2008, 05:27 PM

Uh yeah there is TD has had a better year than KG has. He is putting up beter stats and playing in the much tougher conference. The Celts record in that god awful East does not impress me one bit.

How about the Celts 23-5 record against the Western Conference, including two wins against the Spurs, one without KG, and the one with KG, Tim Duncan was frustrated to the point he only scored 10 points on 8 shots? Does that impress you one bit?

mikejones99

03-24-2008, 05:30 PM

Correct answer should be Paul, Kobe, Lebron, Garnett, Duncan. 2nd should be Nash, AI, Manu, Amare, Howard

Gino

03-24-2008, 05:32 PM

The Celitc's record WITHOUT KG really hurt his chances for MVP and All-NBA first team.

I would like to see him get it, but if Amare got it I wouldn't be upset.

Duncan doesn't really deserve it though. He hasn't really had a GREAT season.

baseline bum

03-24-2008, 05:36 PM

G Chris Paul
G Kobe Bryant
F LeBron James
F Kevin Garnett
C Dwight Howard

Duncan vs Garnett is a toss up, but KG will get the edge because of how well his team has played the entire year (the same way Duncan always got the edge back in the TWolves days).

Tippecanoe

03-24-2008, 06:19 PM

duncan's not getting in this year. (unless they count him as a center. then he might have a shot to beat out dwight)

CP3
KB24
LB23
KG5
Superman

Tippecanoe

03-24-2008, 06:23 PM

ShoogarBear

03-24-2008, 06:37 PM

No way Duncan makes First Team this year.

JMarkJohns

03-24-2008, 06:59 PM

Hasn't Amare already been first team twice? 04-05 and 06-07? I'm not sure about 04-05, but he guy averaged 27 ppg that year, so I wouldn't be surprised.

Amare is an average on-ball defender, a below average off-ball defender and very good shot-blocker.

Part of Amare's nondefense stemmed from him not being able to play all out without fouling, and, pre-Shaq, Amare in foul trouble was a devastating blow. Now that Shaq is defending centers, Amare is better. I wouldn't even say good, but he's much improved. Even his rotation defense is better. He has a long ways to go before it catches up to even his rebounding, but if Amare can focus more on his off-ball defense - making proper and timely rotations, keeping an eye and arm on his man, bodying out once a shot is up - then I think opinions of his defense will change.

He'll never be Garnett. Few are. But he really shouldn't be the half-court liability he has been for stages of his career.

I'd give his post trade defense a B-. I'm serious. At least the effort with the effectiveness.

ShoogarBear

03-24-2008, 07:02 PM

Amare was 1st Team last year, 2nd Team in 2005.

dbreiden83080

03-24-2008, 07:04 PM

How about the Celts 23-5 record against the Western Conference, including two wins against the Spurs, one without KG, and the one with KG, Tim Duncan was frustrated to the point he only scored 10 points on 8 shots? Does that impress you one bit?

Not really because the Spurs sucked that day. Timmy has got the better numbers playing in the better conference. The Celts would be right in the middle of the pack in the west, playing their butts off for a decent seed, i am not putting KG ahead of Duncan with 19 and 9 a game, not going to happen.

JMarkJohns

03-24-2008, 07:07 PM

Amare was 1st Team last year, 2nd Team in 2005.

And Marion was 3rd. That's right. Thanks...

mystargtr34

03-24-2008, 07:10 PM

Paul
Kobe
LeBron
Garnett
Howard

----------

Nash
Manu
Pierce
Duncan
Amare

----------

Deron
Iverson
Dirk
Boozer
Camby

JMarkJohns

03-24-2008, 07:18 PM

Paul
Kobe
LeBron
Garnett
Howard

----------

Nash
Manu
Pierce
Duncan
Amare

----------

Deron
Iverson
Dirk
Boozer
Camby

I think these are quality, but Pierce over Carmelo just isn't happening.

Pierce: 20-p, 5-r, 5-a, 1.3-s on 45% FG, 38% 3FG and 84% FT on 6+ attempts per
Anthony: 26-p, 7-r, 3-a, 1.1-s on 48 FG, 34% 3FG and 80% FT on 8 attempts per

I just don't see Pierce overcoming 'melo.

Tippecanoe

03-24-2008, 07:52 PM

The Celts would be right in the middle of the pack in the west, playing their butts off for a decent seed

because their 23-5 record against the West doesnt count

mystargtr34

03-24-2008, 08:17 PM

I think these are quality, but Pierce over Carmelo just isn't happening.

Pierce: 20-p, 5-r, 5-a, 1.3-s on 45% FG, 38% 3FG and 84% FT on 6+ attempts per
Anthony: 26-p, 7-r, 3-a, 1.1-s on 48 FG, 34% 3FG and 80% FT on 8 attempts per

I just don't see Pierce overcoming 'melo.

First of all ill argue the point about team record (ill move on to stats later because Pierce has a case)

Pierce is definately on an All NBA team... his team has been so dominant and he has put up solid numbers and has been the closer in close games in the 4th. He kept the team at 7-2 when KG went out and a team so dominant has to have more than one guy on the All NBA teams.

Carmelo has also been only the second best player on his team. Along with having the likely Defensive Player of the Year and are nearly 15 games worse than the Celtics (albeit with a tougher schedule).

On to numbers.... i dont like getting to technical because voters i dont think, generally even look at these sorts of things. But the Nuggets play at the fastest pace in the league, while the Celtics play at the slowest.

I dont think anyone has any idea of how hard it is to put up dominant 25-6-6 stats for example playing at as slow a pace as the Celts do. Less rebounds less scoring opportunities, basically less opportunities for every statistical category. Carmelo has also played more minutes

When you adjust for all this then Paul Pierce probably has been more dominant statistically then Carmelo ... and this isnt even taking team record into consideration obviously.

Firstly ill say that PER is not the be-all-end-all of a players statistical output , there are other factors but it is the only measurement that wont penalise guys like Garnett and Duncan whos teams play at snail pace against teams putting up stats like Phoenix and Denver because there teams take 20 extra shots per game.

Basically Pierce has a higher PER than Carmelo which is an adjusted measure based purely on statistics... and Pierce has Melo done here.

And we all know how voters like winning.

A question for you....

What sort of stats do you think Melo and PP put up if they swap places???

dbreiden83080

03-24-2008, 08:21 PM

because their 23-5 record against the West doesnt count

Not when the rest is against the shit they call teams in the east. I say again middle of the pack playing in the west.

Tippecanoe

03-24-2008, 08:39 PM

Not when the rest is against the shit they call teams in the east. I say again middle of the pack playing in the west.

wtf, your argument makes zero sense. your saying the celts would be middle of the pack in the west, when they are 23-5 against the west.

resistanze

03-24-2008, 08:41 PM

Not when the rest is against the shit they call teams in the east. I say again middle of the pack playing in the west.
How does that make sense if they are actually worse against the East @ 22-9?

By your logic, they would be 59-11 if they played in the Western Conference.

mystargtr34

03-24-2008, 08:47 PM

wtf, your argument makes zero sense. your saying the celts would be middle of the pack in the west, when they are 23-5 against the west.

I would argue the Celts would still be on top of the West if they had the West schedule... having said that...

I do think it is a different animal all together playing the tougher West teams night in and night out ... rather than seperate swings out West where you can really analyse each opponent before your trip and focus tends to be much greater.

JMarkJohns

03-24-2008, 08:48 PM

First of all ill argue the point about team record (ill move on to stats later because Pierce has a case)

Pierce is definately on an All NBA team... his team has been so dominant and he has put up solid numbers and has been the closer in close games in the 4th. He kept the team at 7-2 when KG went out and a team so dominant has to have more than one guy on the All NBA teams.

Carmelo has also been only the second best player on his team. Along with having the likely Defensive Player of the Year and are nearly 15 games worse than the Celtics (albeit with a tougher schedule).

On to numbers.... i dont like getting to technical because voters i dont think, generally even look at these sorts of things. But the Nuggets play at the fastest pace in the league, while the Celtics play at the slowest.

I dont think anyone has any idea of how hard it is to put up dominant 25-6-6 stats for example playing at as slow a pace as the Celts do. Less rebounds less scoring opportunities, basically less opportunities for every statistical category. Carmelo has also played more minutes

When you adjust for all this then Paul Pierce probably has been more dominant statistically then Carmelo ... and this isnt even taking team record into consideration obviously.

Firstly ill say that PER is not the be-all-end-all of a players statistical output , there are other factors but it is the only measurement that wont penalise guys like Garnett and Duncan whos teams play at snail pace against teams putting up stats like Phoenix and Denver because there teams take 20 extra shots per game.

Basically Pierce has a higher PER than Carmelo which is an adjusted measure based purely on statistics... and Pierce has Melo done here.

And we all know how voters like winning.

A question for you....

What sort of stats do you think Melo and PP put up if they swap places???

You make a strong case, but I don't think the voters are going to simply dismiss Carmelo's PPG average simply because of possessions, and winning is nice, but it's a statistical award and the raw stats (even FG% and FT attempts per) really support Carmelo.

Maybe Pierce gets 2nd-team, but I still take exception to Carmelo being left off.

mystargtr34

03-24-2008, 08:52 PM

^ Fair enough i actually did have Carmelo in there first ... on the third team ... he is far more deserving that Camby ... but i cant see voters moving Boozer to Centre to accomodate Melo. Maybe they put him above Boozer all together... and maybe even Dirk.

But i cant see the voters not having Pierce there given that Pistons team from a couple years back had nearly everyone on the All NBA teams.

BUMP

03-24-2008, 08:58 PM

from the eye test alone i would say 1st team is

Chris Paul
Kobe
Lebron
Duncan
Dwight Howard

2nd team

Nash
McGrady
Carmelo
KG
Amare

3rd team

Williams
Rip Hamilton
Pierce
Dirk
Chandler (since Yao is injured)

td4mvp21

03-24-2008, 08:58 PM

Mr. All NBA First team Garnett has missed his last three shots in the clutch vs. the 76ers.

dbreiden83080

03-24-2008, 09:02 PM

wtf, your argument makes zero sense. your saying the celts would be middle of the pack in the west, when they are 23-5 against the west.

They have 15 losses in the East, right now. The top seed in the West has 22 losses. They have played well against the West but they have the luxory of cleaning up against the worst teams in the league far more than the elite in the west do. They would be right there in the same battle with all these west teams fighting for a good seed if they were in the west. Please don't tell me you think the Celts are so good they would be on pace for 60 plus wins in this West this year???? You are 12-1 in your division against hacks like the Raptors, Jersey, Knicks, 76ers. We are 9-6 against the likes of NO, Houston, Dallas, Memphis sucks but not the other 3.

Spuradicator

03-24-2008, 09:03 PM

Garnett should get the PF 1st team nod not only based on his stats, but on the Celts record. He had them rolling and has provided spark for that team all year long.

Anyone who argues Amare over Garnett is clearly a homer and doesn't understand that defense and intangibles are just as key as offense is.

I can't wait to see what Amare does without Nash on the team. Its going to be fucking funny when he has to be the man on the team, create his own shot, try to play defense. Mediocrity is where the suns will be headed.

JMarkJohns

03-24-2008, 09:09 PM

But it's a statistical honor. It's Basketballs version of "Most Outstanding Player" ... I agree that Garnett should get the first-team PF spot, but not because of the Celtics record. His stats are very good across the board. Maybe not great in any one category, but strong throughout. Amare is great in scoring and FG%, very good in rebounding, blocks and FT% and average to below average in steals, assists and turnovers.