Do people honestly think that Manu is the MVP of this team?

[BIG z]

Duncan MVP

Tony Parker 2nd

Bowen third

Manu 4th

There is a huge drop off after Parker goes out.

Bowen is 1st team all defense, but manu is not 1st team, all offense.

You must be one something, can u please let me know what it is...

[Cherry]

Even if you want to ignore today, Manu was such a bad defender in the year after the Spurs drafted him that they were ready to give up on him as a prospect. Even as late as 2001, the consensus was that Giricek was better because Ginobili was an atrocious defender at the time. Thankfully, Ginobili worked at that aspect of his game and his improvement defensively was the key for the Spurs to eventually pick him over Giricek. But to say he's been a great defender since he was 18 is laughable.


That's exactly what Manu say on this video :lol (at 2.00)
RC Buford (after the draft): "What i did?! the kid can't play defense"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X-3-f_jSJg

[timvp]

That's exactly what Manu say on this video :lol (at 2.00)
RC Buford (after the draft): "What i did?! the kid can't play defense"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X-3-f_jSJgNice find. Yeah, the story back then was RC went to go watch Manu play and then left disgusted after the first half of action because Manu wasn't guarding anyone. He told Ginobili that when they spoke and then Ginobili made it a point to play better defense from then on. He got a new coach (forgot his name) in Europe who also stressed defense to Ginobili. By the time he got to San Antonio, he was already a pretty good defender, overall.

Gotta give props to Manu for recognizing a weakness and working on it ... even before he made it to the NBA :tu

[greens]

Here is the thing...I think on this team, there are 3 MVPs...That's Tim/Manu/Tony. All have their big moments at different times. All are crucial to winning anything...Tony won a deserving Finals MVP in 2007. I think Manu/Timmy should have been Co-MVPs of the 2005 Finals.

While, obviously, Timmy is the man. He's the franchise player...It ALL starts with him. Tony will tell you that. Manu will tell you that. However, I do think that thus far, in this particular season, Manu has been playing MVP level basketball. He held the team together when TD was out, then when TP was out. Plus, he has come through in so many clutch situations that I've lost count. Even Robert Horry has said that Manu has been carrying the team on his back. Remember his back to back 37 point games, his 44 points games, his other many 30 point games...

However, I always like to think that this team has 3 MVPs, 3 leaders...As Horry says, "3 captains..." Also, don't forget to add Bruce Bowen's contribution, his defense on the opposing teams' best scorers is so crucial. And then add up Pop as the head coach.

It is so good to have THREE MVPs rather than one MVP because it takes pressure off of other people...it also makes a team stronger. TEAMS win...not one single player.

IF it were up to me, then I would not even have an MVP Finals Award...simply because it's the TEAM concept that gets it done, not one superstar. Therefore, everyone should get the recognition. If you think about it, Timmy/Manu/Tony all take turns at different times, plus add up the crucial role players stepping up, and an amazing coach, then you have a chance at trying to get back on top...

[Brutalis]

gd thread

Whatever.

TD is the MVP, heart, soul, and legs of this squad. He is the center piece, the rock. Some fans think Manu is MVP, some Tony, hell some even Bowen. But that's fine, they all have the same goal on mind too.

[Nikos]

Tim Duncan is still the clear MVP of the team.

But if I were to break it down between offense and defense Ginobili wins the offensive MVP this season. Too efficient and too good this year.

But Duncan's rebounding and defense make all the difference THIS year as to why he is still the clear overall MVP.

One thing that irks me about Duncan is his PER is lower despite playing less minutes and having excellent sidekicks in Manu and Tony (something he didn't have 02-04). I think Duncan is coasting in a sense.

There is no reason the Spurs shouldn't be only 3-4 games behind the Celtics in the standings. Pierce and Ray don't even have astounding numbers even if you factor the fact they play more mpg then Manu and TP. But yet the Celtics are playing better D and marginally better O. Either KG = Duncan + Celtics Role players are much better than the Spurs or the Spurs are extremely unlucky this season.

KG is Duncan's equal this year IMO. Because Pierce and Ray have their lowest PER's in several years, and can't be a better defensive combination then Manu and Bowen or offensive combo then Manu and Tony. So why are the Spurs not on the same level as the Celtics.

This is something that irks me.

Either way, I do find Tim to still be the clear MVP of this team. Manu is the most effective offensive player though. Better Offensive PER (efficiency), produces more, and does more in the clutch.

Duncan may draw more attention, but he still doesn't generate enough assists (even hockey assists) as many people claim. Too many times Duncan has simply laid an egg offensively this year. He still has the ability to rise up to a hall of fame level on that end, but he hasn't done it for years (since 02 and 03, and for a few games against Dallas in 06).

I want the old Duncan back because he certainly has the help he needs offensively from his 2 sidekicks. I remember practically praying in 2002 that Duncan could find SOME help on offense, and now he has more help then ever and he isn't quite as productive as he used to be.

Hopefully it changes in the playoffs, because at his best -- he is clearly the MVP of the team even on both ends. I hope he does rise to that level, PLUS Manu and TP still do there thing......

Well see. But it is discouraging to see Boston doing what the Spurs SHOULD BE DOING.

[SuperManu!!!]

FUCK YOU, fuck you all!!!! We have to be happy that 3 great players are on our team!!!!!



Bonner, MM and Vaugh :lol

[sassystriker]

It's like everyone here is afraid that Timmy is being overlooked. He is pushed in every "most valuable" "great" discussion. I mean, its already a given that this team is Duncan's team. That great is what TD is. We get that. The Spurs wouldn't be "The Spurs" without him. We get that already.

But truth be told, it isn't Timmy who played insanely great during the rodeo road trip when the team is struggling unduly, it isn't Timmy who kept and keeps bailing us out everytime we trifle away our leads. It isn't Timmy who we go to when the game is on the line. It isn't Timmy who carried us in his shoulders when the injury plagued the team. It isn't Timmy who keeps sacrificing his position, who is being yo-yoed around so that the team can have its best option to win. It isn't Timmy who really forward us to be on the top spot in the west for the second time this season. Manu did.

I'm not unseating Timmy as the anchor of this team nor am I saying that he did nothing but Manu, in my opinion, just gave us this fight. He played great from start of the season until now. Timmy is valuable to the team, of course, but this season, Manu was just unbelievably great, Manu is the Spur who we most needed this season. While its great that Timmy is playing good but credit is all Manu's for stepping up and pulling us out of the drama which seems to be too plenty to handle this season.

So yeah, I think (well you could always argue) but hey, this is just me, that Manu is the Most Valuable among the Spurs this year.

[mavs>spurs2]

It's like everyone here is afraid that Timmy is being overlooked. He is pushed in every "most valuable" "great" discussion. I mean, its already a given that this team is Duncan's team. That great is what TD is. We get that. The Spurs wouldn't be "The Spurs" without him. We get that already.

But truth be told, it isn't Timmy who played insanely great during the rodeo road trip when the team is struggling unduly, it isn't Timmy who kept and keeps bailing us out everytime we trifle away our leads. It isn't Timmy who we go to when the game is on the line. It isn't Timmy who carried us in his shoulders when the injury plagued the team. It isn't Timmy who keeps sacrificing his position, who is being yo-yoed around so that the team can have its best option to win. It isn't Timmy who really forward us to be on the top spot in the west for the second time this season. Manu did.

I'm not unseating Timmy as the anchor of this team nor am I saying that he did nothing but Manu, in my opinion, just gave us this fight. He played great from start of the season until now. Timmy is valuable to the team, of course, but this season, Manu was just unbelievably great, Manu is the Spur who we most needed this season. While its great that Timmy is playing good but credit is all Manu's for stepping up and pulling us out of the drama which seems to be too plenty to handle this season.

So yeah, I think (well you could always argue) but hey, this is just me, that Manu is the Most Valuable among the Spurs this year.

Great post, it's not a knock against Tim at all if he is outshined just this once, all great teams have more than one great player. Tim has been the face of the franchise for the past decade and if Manu is the team's MVP this one time it's nothing to be ashamed of.

[mystargtr34]

Tim Duncan is still the clear MVP of the team.

But if I were to break it down between offense and defense Ginobili wins the offensive MVP this season. Too efficient and too good this year.

But Duncan's rebounding and defense make all the difference THIS year as to why he is still the clear overall MVP.

One thing that irks me about Duncan is his PER is lower despite playing less minutes and having excellent sidekicks in Manu and Tony (something he didn't have 02-04). I think Duncan is coasting in a sense.

There is no reason the Spurs shouldn't be only 3-4 games behind the Celtics in the standings. Pierce and Ray don't even have astounding numbers even if you factor the fact they play more mpg then Manu and TP. But yet the Celtics are playing better D and marginally better O. Either KG = Duncan + Celtics Role players are much better than the Spurs or the Spurs are extremely unlucky this season.

KG is Duncan's equal this year IMO. Because Pierce and Ray have their lowest PER's in several years, and can't be a better defensive combination then Manu and Bowen or offensive combo then Manu and Tony. So why are the Spurs not on the same level as the Celtics.

This is something that irks me.

Either way, I do find Tim to still be the clear MVP of this team. Manu is the most effective offensive player though. Better Offensive PER (efficiency), produces more, and does more in the clutch.

Duncan may draw more attention, but he still doesn't generate enough assists (even hockey assists) as many people claim. Too many times Duncan has simply laid an egg offensively this year. He still has the ability to rise up to a hall of fame level on that end, but he hasn't done it for years (since 02 and 03, and for a few games against Dallas in 06).

I want the old Duncan back because he certainly has the help he needs offensively from his 2 sidekicks. I remember practically praying in 2002 that Duncan could find SOME help on offense, and now he has more help then ever and he isn't quite as productive as he used to be.

Hopefully it changes in the playoffs, because at his best -- he is clearly the MVP of the team even on both ends. I hope he does rise to that level, PLUS Manu and TP still do there thing......

Well see. But it is discouraging to see Boston doing what the Spurs SHOULD BE DOING.

Tim and Manu have pretty much the same PER this season... and that doesnt really take defense into consideration.

[timvp]

There is no reason the Spurs shouldn't be only 3-4 games behind the Celtics in the standings. Pierce and Ray don't even have astounding numbers even if you factor the fact they play more mpg then Manu and TP. But yet the Celtics are playing better D and marginally better O. Either KG = Duncan + Celtics Role players are much better than the Spurs or the Spurs are extremely unlucky this season.

KG is Duncan's equal this year IMO. Because Pierce and Ray have their lowest PER's in several years, and can't be a better defensive combination then Manu and Bowen or offensive combo then Manu and Tony. So why are the Spurs not on the same level as the Celtics.

This is something that irks me. PER can only take you so far. What PER and other similar stats don't show on paper are intangibles such as level of desperation. The Celtics have three guys who are desperately looking for a championship. Every game this season they have played like it were a playoff game.

The Spurs, on the other hand, have no desperation. It takes something drastic like a four-game losing streak or an abnormally bad loss to get them to play with even a hint of desperation. If this Spurs team played with as much desperation as the Celtics have this season, I'd say their records would be near identical.

That said, I don't take anything away from how Boston is playing. They deserve to be the favorites to win the championship because they are playing extremely well. Their lockdown defense and executing offense remind me of the '99 Spurs. If they get rolling in the playoffs, they might make it look easy.

But I do think you have to account for more than just PER and statistics when wondering why the Celtics are having a vastly superior regular season.

[sassystriker]

Great post, it's not a knock against Tim at all if he is outshined just this once, all great teams have more than one great player. Tim has been the face of the franchise for the past decade and if Manu is the team's MVP this one time it's nothing to be ashamed of.

Yes, I absolutely agree. That is why I'm really proud of Manu all season long.

[Manu_Ginobili]

With so many people in the media claiming Manu to be the Spurs' MVP and best player I'm wondering how many of you guys are buying into this.

Is there anyone here that believes Manu is the MVP of the Spurs?


OF COURSE, HE WAS THE FINALS REAL MVP BACK IN 2005 WHEN WE BEAT DETROIT PISTONS, HE IS THE REAL MVP NOW...

Go Manu!!! :hungry: :hungry: :hungry:

[mystargtr34]

Tim Duncan was the most valuable player in the 2005 Finals... i hear pretty often that Manu should of won it.

He was a beast and no way we get past that Pistons team without Manu... but what Tim Duncan provided was just too much not to give him the award. Personally i think the Finals MVP should be changed to a playoffs MVP of course going to the player on the championship team who was the best player throughout the playoffs.

No disrespect to Tony Parker, who has established himself as one of the best players in the league... but Tim Duncan was by far and away the most valuable guy throughout the playoffs last year.

[Nikos]

PER can only take you so far. What PER and other similar stats don't show on paper are intangibles such as level of desperation. The Celtics have three guys who are desperately looking for a championship. Every game this season they have played like it were a playoff game.

The Spurs, on the other hand, have no desperation. It takes something drastic like a four-game losing streak or an abnormally bad loss to get them to play with even a hint of desperation. If this Spurs team played with as much desperation as the Celtics have this season, I'd say their records would be near identical.

That said, I don't take anything away from how Boston is playing. They deserve to be the favorites to win the championship because they are playing extremely well. Their lockdown defense and executing offense remind me of the '99 Spurs. If they get rolling in the playoffs, they might make it look easy.

But I do think you have to account for more than just PER and statistics when wondering why the Celtics are having a vastly superior regular season.

Who do you think is a better 2-3 combo Ginobili+Parker or Pierce or Ray Allen? Which duo is playing better?

[spursfaninla]

Tonight the MVP was Findog.

He was locked in and his heat check has yet to be abated.

[DAF86]

I know my english is poor, but are you actually reading anything we are posting? I mean REALLY reading it?

Manu IS a good defender, just not a good 1 on 1 defender...

Regarding those people you mention, I would like links, since I seriously dout they said 1 on 1 defender, but defender in general.

Did you read the articles i posted?. i don't know how to post a link that's why i wrote it my self but you can look for it.

[DAF86]

That's exactly what Manu say on this video :lol (at 2.00)
RC Buford (after the draft): "What i did?! the kid can't play defense"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X-3-f_jSJg

Don't get it wrong. Manu said that Buford thought that because of that game in which he didn't play good on defense but then he realized that manu was a good defender.

[DAF86]

Just because Fox Sports said that doesn't make Ginobili a good perimeter defender. If you've watched him this year, you would realize that he isn't that great of one. He doesn't suck but he's not great. Kori knows a lot about the Spurs so I think you should listen to her :lol

yeah Kori knows a lot 'bout the spurs, i do too and i think i know a little 'bout manu also. and if several BB specialists think that manu plays "killer D" why can't i?

[roycrikside]

:rolleyes

Even if you want to ignore today, Manu was such a bad defender in the year after the Spurs drafted him that they were ready to give up on him as a prospect. Even as late as 2001, the consensus was that Giricek was better because Ginobili was an atrocious defender at the time. Thankfully, Ginobili worked at that aspect of his game and his improvement defensively was the key for the Spurs to eventually pick him over Giricek. But to say he's been a great defender since he was 18 is laughable.

Today, Ginobili overall would be rated as a good defender. However, in one-on-one matchups, he's not that good. Help defensive wise, he's very good. The Spurs know this and set their defense to allow Ginobili's strengths on defense to shine.

But let's not pretend that Ginobili doesn't get the easiest possible matchups on a nightly basis. Bowen guards the best perimeter offensive player. Parker guards the second best perimeter offensive player. Whoever is left is who Ginobili guards. The one game this year that Ginobili began the contest guarding an All-Star caliber player, Paul Pierce went for like 15 points in the first five minutes of the game. And the only reason Ginobili was guarding Pierce was because Parker missed that game. Normally, Bowen would guard Pierce, Parker would guard Allen and Ginobili would guard whoever else the Celtics put on the perimeter.

If you want to think that Ginobili has been the Argentine Satch Sanders since the age of 18, I guess there isn't much to be done to convince you.

This is bogus. Parker doesn't guard the 2nd best offensive perimeter player, he guards whoever the fuck happens to be the shortest and quickest. You know, most often the point guard. Go figure.

Like people bring up the example of Tony guarding Rip on the Pistons. Well who the hell else can he guard? Prince is way too tall and Chauncey is way too thick.

Same with the Warriors. He has to guard Monta because Davis is too thick and Jackson is too big.

It's a size thing, not an ability thing. It's why he has to check AI or Barbosa. We literally have nobody else in the starting line-up who is of similar size.


If you want to bag on Manu's one-on-one defense, go ahead. But saying he's worse at it than Tony is plain laughable. Tony gets lit up by his guy every other night. Rondo killed him, Miller in Philly killed him, lots of guys have killed him. You never see Manu's guy get 20, 30 points because Manu doesn't let them get that many shots. TimVP never gives Ginobili credit for denying guys the ball on defense. He doesn't start paying attention til they actually have the ball.

And another thing you haven't even mentioned is that Manu plays a sizable portion of the game without Tony and Bruce even on the floor. Saying he "always" guards the worst perimeter player is over generalizing things a lot.


Also, your opinion that the Spurs would make the playoffs with an average shooting guard and possibly have a better record than they do with Manu is idiotic. If they have an average guard instead of Manu, they'd be worse than the Blazers and quite possibly the Kings right now.

Your solution is that not having Manu would make everyone on the team less lazy and more motivated. Brilliant. More motivated doesn't equal more talented. The Spurs have slumped this year largely because their role players aren't as good as in years past and the conference is deeper. In past years they could win games handily with just two of the big three playing and the third guy out. This year they need them all. If you noticed the winning streak we have now, it's because the big three are healthy and playing well for the first time since November.

Parker missed a bunch of games this year. What do you think would've happened to the team if it was just Tim and nobody? 10 game losing streak, that's what. The team needed Manu to pull out many many games for them. You think without Ginobili that the other guys will just what... concentrate more? All of a sudden Finley will shoot 50% for the whole year and average 20ppg? Barry won't get hurt? Oberto will be a 10 and 10 guy? Come on.

This might be one of the dumbest opinions you've ever had. The team is +387 with him and a -35 with him off the court, according to 82games.com. With Duncan it's 390 and -38, in like 200 more minutes. There's practically no difference between the two. According to your theory we could replace Tim with an average center and the other guys "could just try harder."

Gimme a break. I can't believe spurstalk doesn't ever call you out on crazy shit you throw out like this. Nobody in the supposed CoM would ever be arrogant or stupid enough to suggest that the team could make the playoffs without Timmy. They're literally 1 and 1A.

[Texas_Ranger]

No way. TD will always be the MVP of this team.

[Cherry]

Don't get it wrong. Manu said that Buford thought that because of that game in which he didn't play good on defense but then he realized that manu was a good defender.

Manu don't wanted to play defense at that time until Ettore Messina change his mind. He learn defense because of him.

[2centsworth]

This is bogus. Parker doesn't guard the 2nd best offensive perimeter player, he guards whoever the fuck happens to be the shortest and quickest. You know, most often the point guard. Go figure.

Like people bring up the example of Tony guarding Rip on the Pistons. Well who the hell else can he guard? Prince is way too tall and Chauncey is way too thick.

Same with the Warriors. He has to guard Monta because Davis is too thick and Jackson is too big.

It's a size thing, not an ability thing. It's why he has to check AI or Barbosa. We literally have nobody else in the starting line-up who is of similar size.


If you want to bag on Manu's one-on-one defense, go ahead. But saying he's worse at it than Tony is plain laughable. Tony gets lit up by his guy every other night. Rondo killed him, Miller in Philly killed him, lots of guys have killed him. You never see Manu's guy get 20, 30 points because Manu doesn't let them get that many shots. TimVP never gives Ginobili credit for denying guys the ball on defense. He doesn't start paying attention til they actually have the ball.

And another thing you haven't even mentioned is that Manu plays a sizable portion of the game without Tony and Bruce even on the floor. Saying he "always" guards the worst perimeter player is over generalizing things a lot.


Also, your opinion that the Spurs would make the playoffs with an average shooting guard and possibly have a better record than they do with Manu is idiotic. If they have an average guard instead of Manu, they'd be worse than the Blazers and quite possibly the Kings right now.

Your solution is that not having Manu would make everyone on the team less lazy and more motivated. Brilliant. More motivated doesn't equal more talented. The Spurs have slumped this year largely because their role players aren't as good as in years past and the conference is deeper. In past years they could win games handily with just two of the big three playing and the third guy out. This year they need them all. If you noticed the winning streak we have now, it's because the big three are healthy and playing well for the first time since November.

Parker missed a bunch of games this year. What do you think would've happened to the team if it was just Tim and nobody? 10 game losing streak, that's what. The team needed Manu to pull out many many games for them. You think without Ginobili that the other guys will just what... concentrate more? All of a sudden Finley will shoot 50% for the whole year and average 20ppg? Barry won't get hurt? Oberto will be a 10 and 10 guy? Come on.

This might be one of the dumbest opinions you've ever had. The team is +387 with him and a -35 with him off the court, according to 82games.com. With Duncan it's 390 and -38, in like 200 more minutes. There's practically no difference between the two. According to your theory we could replace Tim with an average center and the other guys "could just try harder."

Gimme a break. I can't believe spurstalk doesn't ever call you out on crazy shit you throw out like this. Nobody in the supposed CoM would ever be arrogant or stupid enough to suggest that the team could make the playoffs without Timmy. They're literally 1 and 1A.
I'm a huge Manu fan, but as a one on one defender when both players are at their best Tony is better. As a matter of fact, I think Tony is one of the most underrated defenders in the league. The problem with Tony and Manu is that they expend way too much energy on the offensive end to give Bruce Bowen type of effort on defense every minute of the game. However, in crunch time Tony can be a lock down defender. Manu, when defense is his main priority, can be pretty good one on one and insanely good making key plays like drawing charges and stealing the ball.

As far as 1 and 1A, no freakin way. Tim is 1 all by himself. Tim averages 20 pts in his sleep while Manu needs a career year. Tim also is a top flight rebounder, shot blocker, assist man, clutch performer, etc...

I love Manu, but he's not Tim Duncan and that's entirely ok.

Manu may go down as my favorite Spur of all-time because of his heart. In that area I rate Manu #1.

[ForeignFan]

You used a swingman that just happened to be a SF that even big guys like Lebron have trouble guarding. It's a big-time size mismatch. Ginobili should not be able to guard him period. The Spurs switch so much on defense when is someone truly defending one guy anyway?




Strange, because I saw him on Rip Hamilton down the stretch in the Spurs' biggest game of 2005. Hell, this is the NBA. Every swingman uses screens/picks at one time or another.

As matter of fact, if I remember correctly, the only thing TP did correctly in last game of the 2005 series was defending on Rip Hamilton (in particular on the last play of the game)

[Athenea]

As matter of fact, if I remember correctly, the only thing TP did correctly in last game of the 2005 series was defending on Rip Hamilton (in particular on the last play of the game)
TP was systematically eaten alive by opposite pgs in each of those series back in POffs 2005. He only did a semi decent work on Hamilton in game 7(and couldn't handle BBB-B-B-Billups throughout the series of course).

[Athenea]

This is bogus. Parker doesn't guard the 2nd best offensive perimeter player, he guards whoever the fuck happens to be the shortest and quickest. You know, most often the point guard. Go figure.

Like people bring up the example of Tony guarding Rip on the Pistons. Well who the hell else can he guard? Prince is way too tall and Chauncey is way too thick.

Same with the Warriors. He has to guard Monta because Davis is too thick and Jackson is too big.

It's a size thing, not an ability thing. It's why he has to check AI or Barbosa. We literally have nobody else in the starting line-up who is of similar size.


If you want to bag on Manu's one-on-one defense, go ahead. But saying he's worse at it than Tony is plain laughable. Tony gets lit up by his guy every other night. Rondo killed him, Miller in Philly killed him, lots of guys have killed him. You never see Manu's guy get 20, 30 points because Manu doesn't let them get that many shots. TimVP never gives Ginobili credit for denying guys the ball on defense. He doesn't start paying attention til they actually have the ball.

And another thing you haven't even mentioned is that Manu plays a sizable portion of the game without Tony and Bruce even on the floor. Saying he "always" guards the worst perimeter player is over generalizing things a lot.


Also, your opinion that the Spurs would make the playoffs with an average shooting guard and possibly have a better record than they do with Manu is idiotic. If they have an average guard instead of Manu, they'd be worse than the Blazers and quite possibly the Kings right now.

Your solution is that not having Manu would make everyone on the team less lazy and more motivated. Brilliant. More motivated doesn't equal more talented. The Spurs have slumped this year largely because their role players aren't as good as in years past and the conference is deeper. In past years they could win games handily with just two of the big three playing and the third guy out. This year they need them all. If you noticed the winning streak we have now, it's because the big three are healthy and playing well for the first time since November.

Parker missed a bunch of games this year. What do you think would've happened to the team if it was just Tim and nobody? 10 game losing streak, that's what. The team needed Manu to pull out many many games for them. You think without Ginobili that the other guys will just what... concentrate more? All of a sudden Finley will shoot 50% for the whole year and average 20ppg? Barry won't get hurt? Oberto will be a 10 and 10 guy? Come on.

This might be one of the dumbest opinions you've ever had. The team is +387 with him and a -35 with him off the court, according to 82games.com. With Duncan it's 390 and -38, in like 200 more minutes. There's practically no difference between the two. According to your theory we could replace Tim with an average center and the other guys "could just try harder."

Gimme a break. I can't believe spurstalk doesn't ever call you out on crazy shit you throw out like this. Nobody in the supposed CoM would ever be arrogant or stupid enough to suggest that the team could make the playoffs without Timmy. They're literally 1 and 1A.
Ditto to everything in your post.

[sassystriker]

QUOTE=roycrikside]This is bogus. Parker doesn't guard the 2nd best offensive perimeter player, he guards whoever the fuck happens to be the shortest and quickest. You know, most often the point guard. Go figure.

Like people bring up the example of Tony guarding Rip on the Pistons. Well who the hell else can he guard? Prince is way too tall and Chauncey is way too thick.

Same with the Warriors. He has to guard Monta because Davis is too thick and Jackson is too big.

It's a size thing, not an ability thing. It's why he has to check AI or Barbosa. We literally have nobody else in the starting line-up who is of similar size.


If you want to bag on Manu's one-on-one defense, go ahead. But saying he's worse at it than Tony is plain laughable. Tony gets lit up by his guy every other night. Rondo killed him, Miller in Philly killed him, lots of guys have killed him. You never see Manu's guy get 20, 30 points because Manu doesn't let them get that many shots. He doesn't start paying attention til they actually have the ball.

And another thing you haven't even mentioned is that Manu plays a sizable portion of the game without Tony and Bruce even on the floor. Saying he "always" guards the worst perimeter player is over generalizing things a lot.
[QUOTE]

Good for you to post that! Kudos to you.

And I flat out agree. Good defenders, let alone the great ones, would never allow their guy to score much. To say that Tony guards the second best offensive perimeter player is just nuts. The guys that he guards often toast us with their scoring. They're the ones who pile tons of points for their teams. Look there, Rip was like shooting at every angle in that game. And without sweat. Pop even had Manu, who was doing great at shutting Billups down, switch in guarding Rip. But the guy was already on the roll. So that’s just that. Tony doesn't even make them work for a single shot like when he guarded CP who scored plenty of open shots. Yeah, CP was like unguardable; bar he could have at least made it just a tiny bit harder to take those shots. Tony is quick alright but that's just speed and never really guarding.

As for Manu's D skills, he's getting much better. He's doing a decent job of making his guy work. He gets to their face, chases them down and is just basically annoying that his guys often get the tech.

[MoSpur]

This season, Manu and Tim are just as important. If Manu were to miss significant time because of injury the Spurs would have a hard time getting into the playoffs much less winning a series. Same goes with Tim.

[DAF86]

Manu don't wanted to play defense at that time until Ettore Messina change his mind. He learn defense because of him.

do you speak spanish? did you hear what manu said in the interview? the guy that changed manu's mentality towards defense was "el zeta rodriguez" when ginobili wasn't even a pro yet.

[DAF86]

I'm a huge Manu fan, but as a one on one defender when both players are at their best Tony is better. As a matter of fact, I think Tony is one of the most underrated defenders in the league. The problem with Tony and Manu is that they expend way too much energy on the offensive end to give Bruce Bowen type of effort on defense every minute of the game. However, in crunch time Tony can be a lock down defender. Manu, when defense is his main priority, can be pretty good one on one and insanely good making key plays like drawing charges and stealing the ball.

As far as 1 and 1A, no freakin way. Tim is 1 all by himself. Tim averages 20 pts in his sleep while Manu needs a career year. Tim also is a top flight rebounder, shot blocker, assist man, clutch performer, etc...

I love Manu, but he's not Tim Duncan and that's entirely ok.

Manu may go down as my favorite Spur of all-time because of his heart. In that area I rate Manu #1.

don't get me wrong i'm not saying manu's a better defender than duncan i'm just saying that manu's a very good defender 'cause someone said that he isn't and i couldn't bealive it. see Kori this is why i wanted a different thread to discuss this.
by the way i don't agree with "the parker D is better than manu D" part.

[Cherry]

do you speak spanish? did you hear what manu said in the interview? the guy that changed manu's mentality towards defense was "el zeta rodriguez" when ginobili wasn't even a pro yet.


una cosa es aprender defensa y la otra es no querer jugarla :lol

Ok. Ask Manu

[rob5]

Duncan MVP

Tony Parker 2nd

Bowen third

Manu 4th

There is a huge drop off after Parker goes out.

Bowen is 1st team all defense, but manu is not 1st team, all offense.
you're an idiot

[v2freak]

Duncan MVP

Tony Parker 2nd

Bowen third

Manu 4th

There is a huge drop off after Parker goes out.

Bowen is 1st team all defense, but manu is not 1st team, all offense.

I like this idea a lot. Bowen doesn't get his due credit. Yesterday showed how important he was as he put the lockdown on McGrady.

[DAF86]

una cosa es aprender defensa y la otra es no querer jugarla :lol

Ok. Ask Manu

viste esa entrevista? te acordas que el gallego perez y manu se reian de que cuando era pendejo le decian que no defendia a nadie y que despues termino siendo un gran defensor? si sos argentino/a no podes decir que manu es un mal defensor.

[ancestron]

very surprised this thread has not been closed.

[DAF86]

very surprised this thread has not been closed.

Why?

[timvp]

This is bogus. Parker doesn't guard the 2nd best offensive perimeter player, he guards whoever the fuck happens to be the shortest and quickest. You know, most often the point guard. Go figure. Again, if there is a perimeter player who isn't too heavy and likes to utilize screens, Parker is the next in line behind Bowen. Pop has said in the past that Parker is the best player on the team in keeping up with his man going around screens.


Like people bring up the example of Tony guarding Rip on the Pistons. Well who the hell else can he guard? Prince is way too tall and Chauncey is way too thick. Chauncey too thick? Parker guarded him almost the entire 2005 Finals. Considering Chauncey was in his prime and the reigning Finals MVP, I'd say he did a damn good job.


Same with the Warriors. He has to guard Monta because Davis is too thick and Jackson is too big. Parker has guarded Davis more than everyone else on the Spurs combined since he's come into the league. Do you watch the game?


It's a size thing, not an ability thing. It's why he has to check AI or Barbosa. We literally have nobody else in the starting line-up who is of similar size. If you want to say it's a speed thing, then fine. But a height issue? Bowen is taller than Manu and he guards everyone. If Manu were the Argentine Bowen like some in this thread claim he is, he could hypothetically guard whoever.


If you want to bag on Manu's one-on-one defense, go ahead. But saying he's worse at it than Tony is plain laughable. Tony gets lit up by his guy every other night. Rondo killed him, Miller in Philly killed him, lots of guys have killed him.I've noted countless times when Parker doesn't bring energy defensively. But at his best (like last year in the playoffs), he can be a borderline lockdown defender. Everyone he guarded last year in the playoffs saw their stats plummet.

But yeah, I'm sure that's a fluke. God forbid someone say the word "Parker" in the same sentence as "Ginobili". :rolleyes


You never see Manu's guy get 20, 30 points because Manu doesn't let them get that many shots. TimVP never gives Ginobili credit for denying guys the ball on defense. He doesn't start paying attention til they actually have the ball. I give Manu credit all the time. But honestly, he usually has the easiest defensive matchups on the team on a nightly basis. If you want to argue this point, start naming some players he has shut down at any point this season.

The truth is he usually switches from player to player so that Pop can keep him on the weakest offensive player on the court. By doing that, Manu's great team defensive skills come into play.


And another thing you haven't even mentioned is that Manu plays a sizable portion of the game without Tony and Bruce even on the floor. Saying he "always" guards the worst perimeter player is over generalizing things a lot.If Bowen isn't on the court, that usually means the other team's best perimeter offensive player isn't on the court. When Manu is playing with the bench, he's *gasp* usually going up against other bench players.

If you want to point to examples of Ginobili guarding superstars effectively while Bowen and Parker were on the bench, I'm all ears.


Also, your opinion that the Spurs would make the playoffs with an average shooting guard and possibly have a better record than they do with Manu is idiotic. If they have an average guard instead of Manu, they'd be worse than the Blazers and quite possibly the Kings right now.

Your solution is that not having Manu would make everyone on the team less lazy and more motivated. Brilliant. More motivated doesn't equal more talented. The Spurs have slumped this year largely because their role players aren't as good as in years past and the conference is deeper. In past years they could win games handily with just two of the big three playing and the third guy out. This year they need them all. If you noticed the winning streak we have now, it's because the big three are healthy and playing well for the first time since November.

Parker missed a bunch of games this year. What do you think would've happened to the team if it was just Tim and nobody? 10 game losing streak, that's what. The team needed Manu to pull out many many games for them. You think without Ginobili that the other guys will just what... concentrate more? All of a sudden Finley will shoot 50% for the whole year and average 20ppg? Barry won't get hurt? Oberto will be a 10 and 10 guy? Come on.

This might be one of the dumbest opinions you've ever had. The team is +387 with him and a -35 with him off the court, according to 82games.com. With Duncan it's 390 and -38, in like 200 more minutes. There's practically no difference between the two. According to your theory we could replace Tim with an average center and the other guys "could just try harder."

Gimme a break. I can't believe spurstalk doesn't ever call you out on crazy shit you throw out like this. Nobody in the supposed CoM would ever be arrogant or stupid enough to suggest that the team could make the playoffs without Timmy. They're literally 1 and 1A.:lol I don't know if your reading is failing you or your reading comprehension is failing you, but you need to go back and read what I said again ... and this time think it over.

Again, if the Spurs were coming into the season with no championships to their name and Manu replaced with an average shooting guard (say Corey Maggette), the team would still make the playoffs. The supporting cast around Duncan would still be better than the cast he had in 2001 or 2002. Hell, that cast is better than anything Robinson had from about 1992 through the time Duncan was drafted. To say the Spurs couldn't make the playoffs without Manu is ludicrous seeing how Duncan and Robinson have taken far worse casts to the playoffs.

The Spurs would have to play all season like every game were a playoff game and they'd be able to make it into the playoffs. Of course they'd get their azz handed to them in the playoffs, that's not in question. But it really shouldn't be too much of a criticism of Ginobili that the Spurs can do well without him. The Bulls almost made it to the Finals without Jordan.

And yes, the Spurs would be worse without Manu than the Bulls were without Jordan. In that sense, you can say that Manu > Jordan.

*Hopefully he just skims to the last line and uses his reading comprehension skills*

[DAF86]

Again, if there is a perimeter player who isn't too heavy and likes to utilize screens, Parker is the next in line behind Bowen. Pop has said in the past that Parker is the best player on the team in keeping up with his man going around screens.

Ginobili never guards players who likes to utilize screens because pop thinks that Manu's endurance is poor and likes to rest him in the defensive end more than anyone else.


If you want to say it's a speed thing, then fine. But a height issue? Bowen is taller than Manu and he guards everyone. If Manu were the Argentine Bowen like some in this thread claim he is, he could hypothetically guard whoever.

nobody said that.


If you want to point to examples of Ginobili guarding superstars effectively while Bowen and Parker were on the bench, I'm all ears.

he guarded James a lot of times in the finals and he did pretty well. there's even a stat that showed that manu was the most efficient guarding james in that series.(but that's a very unfair stat 'cause Manu didn't guarded james as much as bowen did but it shows you that he isn't as bad as you think


if the Spurs were coming into the season with no championships to their name and Manu replaced with an average shooting guard (say Corey Maggette), the team would still make the playoffs. The supporting cast around Duncan would still be better than the cast he had in 2001 or 2002. Hell, that cast is better than anything Robinson had from about 1992 through the time Duncan was drafted. To say the Spurs couldn't make the playoffs without Manu is ludicrous seeing how Duncan and Robinson have taken far worse casts to the playoffs.

You can't compare this season west with any other. this year a 50w team will miss the playoffs.

[roycrikside]

The west this year is too strong, I just can't buy your argument. Check the wagesofwins formulas. Manu's been worth like what 10, 12 wins already by himself? Plus it's really not very realistic to expect a team of 35 year olds to play every regular season game in a grueling 82 game season like their hair is on fire. Their bodies just cannot handle it. With the Spurs the issue isn't motivation as much as it's just pacing. They have to pace themselves to get to April and May and hopefully June.

Really your whole hypothetical argument just doesn't make much sense. You can't just up and pretend the roster has no titles and lots of motivation to play super hard. No NBA roster would be built like this unless they specifically did have championship experience and lots of experience playing together. Pop's whole excuse for bringing the whole team back this year was that they deserve a chance to repeat together. If they didn't win in '07, than Horry, Bowen, Barry, Fin, Vaughn etc. would all be gone already.

I think you are not giving enough credit to the teammates that both Tim and Manu had around them from 1989-2002. Not always championship caliber teams, sure, but plenty of talented players and contending squads. Elliott was a fine player in his prime and so was Cummings. Strickland had a good run for a while and so did Avery. And at least in half those years the East was the superior conference to the West, so the competition wasn't as hard.

As for the Duncan era, don't let your memories of the '03 Robinson cloud the total package. For most of the time he played with Timmy, David was still a good player, an asset, and definitely superior to the cast of jokers, castoffs, misfits and ne'erdowells we've had at center since.

And also, please remember that the '08 Duncan is not in his prime. He can't carry a club like he used to.

[Galileo]

The west this year is too strong, I just can't buy your argument. Check the wagesofwins formulas. Manu's been worth like what 10, 12 wins already by himself? Plus it's really not very realistic to expect a team of 35 year olds to play every regular season game in a grueling 82 game season like their hair is on fire. Their bodies just cannot handle it. With the Spurs the issue isn't motivation as much as it's just pacing. They have to pace themselves to get to April and May and hopefully June.

Really your whole hypothetical argument just doesn't make much sense. You can't just up and pretend the roster has no titles and lots of motivation to play super hard. No NBA roster would be built like this unless they specifically did have championship experience and lots of experience playing together. Pop's whole excuse for bringing the whole team back this year was that they deserve a chance to repeat together. If they didn't win in '07, than Horry, Bowen, Barry, Fin, Vaughn etc. would all be gone already.

I think you are not giving enough credit to the teammates that both Tim and Manu had around them from 1989-2002. Not always championship caliber teams, sure, but plenty of talented players and contending squads. Elliott was a fine player in his prime and so was Cummings. Strickland had a good run for a while and so did Avery. And at least in half those years the East was the superior conference to the West, so the competition wasn't as hard.

As for the Duncan era, don't let your memories of the '03 Robinson cloud the total package. For most of the time he played with Timmy, David was still a good player, an asset, and definitely superior to the cast of jokers, castoffs, misfits and ne'erdowells we've had at center since.

And also, please remember that the '08 Duncan is not in his prime. He can't carry a club like he used to.

By stats, Duncan is just as good as he's ever been this year, adjusted on a per minute basis.

He carried the Spurs last year in the pivitol series that decided the NBA championship, versus the Suns:

26.3 points per game

13.7 rebounds per game

4.2 blocks per game

Duncan is perfectly capable of "carrying" the Spurs, but only does so when nescessary.

With Duncan running around, moving without the ball, setting picks and screens, and nabbing offensive rebounds, he is just as good on offense, if not better, than ever. An he is even making his free throws this season.

Duncan is only 31, healthy and still in his prime. People who are fixated on scoring average do not see this.

[spursjustice]

The Spurs are a true definition of a team. Everyone is vital to the team's success. Take out any of our big 3 + Bruce and we falter. Hence we don't just have one MVP. However, if you ask me who has been more valuable to the team between Tim and Manu, my answer is both of them. But if I could only choose one of these players (Tim or Manu) to lead the rest of the Spurs into the playoffs this year, I'd take Tim everyday, because he's the foundation; you'd be silly to pick anyone else.

[TMTTRIO]

Even Manu says that Tim's the man on this team.
z_F1hdYLsyk

[oboymeetsogirl]

Duncan is the glue. Without him, everything falls apart. It's apparent in *every* game -- when Duncan is on the bench, the Spurs are average defensively, and below average offensively. And you need to be way above average to make it through the playoffs.

With Manu on the bench, the Spurs are still a powerful team. Good enough to win the West? Possibly. But good enough to go all the way? Probably not.

Ergo: Spurs would be nowhere without Duncan, but at least somewhere without Manu. We obviously need both of them -- especially this year -- to go all the way and take our fifth out of ten.

[roycrikside]

Duncan is the glue. Without him, everything falls apart. It's apparent in *every* game -- when Duncan is on the bench, the Spurs are average defensively, and below average offensively. And you need to be way above average to make it through the playoffs.

With Manu on the bench, the Spurs are still a powerful team. Good enough to win the West? Possibly. But good enough to go all the way? Probably not.

Ergo: Spurs would be nowhere without Duncan, but at least somewhere without Manu. We obviously need both of them -- especially this year -- to go all the way and take our fifth out of ten.

With Manu on the bench, the Spurs have been outscored for the season. Doesn't seem all that powerful to me.

[sheriee84]

I think Tim will always be the MVP of the spurs.... Manu is absolutely wonderful, but Tim gives us stability and focus... He knows and has perfectded the basics of basketball, and that will always win games.
Manu is my favorite player though... He can create something out of nothing.... He adds spark and has an uncanny ability to know whats going on around him (sometimes without even looking). His passing is spectacular, and his shots (while crazy sometimes) are great. But, when he has a bad game, you can tell... His passes miss their mark and his shots just won't go in... But all in all Manu can carry a team for a game, but Tim carries the team for a season.

[DAF86]

I think Tim will always be the MVP of the spurs.... Manu is absolutely wonderful, but Tim gives us stability and focus... He knows and has perfectded the basics of basketball, and that will always win games.
Manu is my favorite player though... He can create something out of nothing.... He adds spark and has an uncanny ability to know whats going on around him (sometimes without even looking). His passing is spectacular, and his shots (while crazy sometimes) are great. But, when he has a bad game, you can tell... His passes miss their mark and his shots just won't go in... But all in all Manu can carry a team for a game, but Tim carries the team for a season.

Tim is the MVP of this team i'm not arguing that. But people should stop saying that Manu can't carry a team for a season. He's done that through all his life. When Manu gets to a team that team becomes an instant winner and i'm not talking about just games i'm talking 'bout championships and in all of those teams (with the exception of the Spurs) he's been the man.
So i think Manu knows something 'bout carrying teams.