Do people honestly think that Manu is the MVP of this team?

[TDfan2007]

With so many people in the media claiming Manu to be the Spurs' MVP and best player I'm wondering how many of you guys are buying into this.

Is there anyone here that believes Manu is the MVP of the Spurs?

[Mister Sinister]

I take a WGAF stance on it, myself.

[JamStone]

For this season, yes.

There's no doubt that in order for the Spurs to be great, they need Tim Duncan as the foundation and backbone at both ends of the court. But, performance wise, Manu has done pretty much everything you can think of to carry the Spurs this season.

[duncan228]

For me, Duncan is always the MVP of this team.
Manu is vital to their success. So is Parker. So are the role players.
But take away Duncan and this team does not win Championships.

[Galileo]

Duncan MVP

Tony Parker 2nd

Bowen third

Manu 4th

There is a huge drop off after Parker goes out.

Bowen is 1st team all defense, but manu is not 1st team, all offense.

[doldrums]

without Manu this year we would be fighting for a playoff birth, and I think I even heard duncan say that after a recent game.

[ChuckD]

Manu puts them over the top in many games, but your MVP is the foundation that you build on, and that starts and ends with Tim. To me, Manu is 1A and Tony is 2.

[m33p0]

manu is the closer for this team.
tony, when back to his old form, blows the other team away.
but its tim that keeps the team in the game.

[Cherry]

For most of this season is like he's always there to save the game.

[ShoogarBear]

There is not a single person in the league, KG included, who could replace Tim Duncan on the Spurs.

There are several other players in the league who could be inserted for Ginobili, Parker, or Bowen and the Spurs wouldn't miss a beat.

[sassystriker]

yes

[themvp]

No.

[JamStone]

Duncan MVP

Tony Parker 2nd

Bowen third

Manu 4th

There is a huge drop off after Parker goes out.

Bowen is 1st team all defense, but manu is not 1st team, all offense.


wow.

[honestfool84]

Duncan MVP

Tony Parker 2nd

Bowen third

Manu 4th

There is a huge drop off after Parker goes out.

Bowen is 1st team all defense, but manu is not 1st team, all offense.



i was like, WTF when i saw manu down at fourth, but then i realized what you said has a little grain of truth; albeit, i would easily argue that parker and ginobili are interchangeable at the 2 spot.

[Cherry]

There are several other players in the league who could be inserted for Ginobili, Parker, or Bowen and the Spurs wouldn't miss a beat.



? :lmao

[TwoHandJam]

There is not a single person in the league, KG included, who could replace Tim Duncan on the Spurs.

There are several other players in the league who could be inserted for Ginobili, Parker, or Bowen and the Spurs wouldn't miss a beat.
Given his efficiency, clutchness and selflessness (i.e. flip-flopping between bench player and starter on the coach's whim), I don't think there is any single player I can think of that could replace what Ginobili does for us right now.

[doldrums]

There is not a single person in the league, KG included, who could replace Tim Duncan on the Spurs.

There are several other players in the league who could be inserted for Ginobili, Parker, or Bowen and the Spurs wouldn't miss a beat.

I can't believe you would state this when every basketball analyst says that there is noone in the league that can do all the things that Manu can do. So that's not to say there aren't better players because , of course, there are; but nobody can replace him( attitude, multi-faceted game, unorthodox, diificult to defend, cunning, passion etc).

[porscha]

yes

[mikejones99]

bowen plays most minutes, duncan is amazing, parker has great times and manu is having a great year. spurs have 4 mvps.

[Trainwreck2100]

No

[Galileo]

I can't believe you would state this when every basketball analyst says that there is noone in the league that can do all the things that Manu can do. So that's not to say there aren't better players because , of course, there are; but nobody can replace him( attitude, multi-faceted game, unorthodox, diificult to defend, cunning, passion etc).


Mo Williams could replace him.

I'm from Wisconsin, and yes, Manu is a very good player. But he could be replaced by any other of dozens of NBA players who can drive and shoot threes.

The Spurs are all about Tim Duncan, the best basketball player in NBA history. The rest of the team are role players.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

wow.
+1

[ducks]

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90595&page=1&pp=26

[TwoHandJam]

Given his efficiency, clutchness and selflessness (i.e. flip-flopping between bench player and starter on the coach's whim), I don't think there is any single player I can think of that could replace what Ginobili does for us right now.
Just a followup to this thought, I still believe Tim is the foundation and MVP of the team.

[ducks]

Duncan MVP

Tony Parker 2nd

Bowen third

Manu 4th

There is a huge drop off after Parker goes out.

Bowen is 1st team all defense, but manu is not 1st team, all offense.
I do not agree with that

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I don't believe Manu has been the MVP. I do think, however, that this year BOTH Tim and Manu have been carrying this team. I'm not ready to say Manu is more valuable than Tim, but I don't feel too outraged at people suggesting it. Manu has certainly made a case for himself.


There are several other players in the league who could be inserted for Ginobili, Parker, or Bowen and the Spurs wouldn't miss a beat.

Come on Shoog... you know better than to say this? I mean, name another player that would bring what Manu brings, in the same amount of minutes, who wouldn't take a hit if he was required to come off the bench... just name one? By the way, given that we are talking about the NBA, and salary is an issue, you should also keep the list down to those in Manu's salary range. Same case scenario with Parker.


Duncan MVP

Tony Parker 2nd

Bowen third

Manu 4th

There is a huge drop off after Parker goes out.

Bowen is 1st team all defense, but manu is not 1st team, all offense.

Have you even seen a game this season??

[doldrums]

Mo Williams could replace him.

I'm from Wisconsin, and yes, Manu is a very good player. But he could be replaced by any other of dozens of NBA players who can drive and shoot threes.

The Spurs are all about Tim Duncan, the best basketball player in NBA history. The rest of the team are role players.


Mo Williams :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol , could Mo have led Argentina to the Olympic gold? can he take over a game, gimme a break man, at least make some valid comparisons. Mo hasn't done anything in the NBA.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Duncan MVP

Tony Parker 2nd

Bowen third

Manu 4th

There is a huge drop off after Parker goes out.

Bowen is 1st team all defense, but manu is not 1st team, all offense.
Please explain how Tony>Manu this season.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

For the season it's definitely Manu, but in general, this will always be TD's team

[JamStone]

Tim Duncan is the best player on the Spurs and the foundation of its success, but I don't view him as the leader of the Spurs. First off, if anyone is the leader of the Spurs, it's Pop. If you were to name a player, it's Manu. That's part of his value, his leadership, his selflessness, his sacrifice, his attitude.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Mo Williams could replace him.

I'm from Wisconsin, and yes, Manu is a very good player. But he could be replaced by any other of dozens of NBA players who can drive and shoot threes.

The Spurs are all about Tim Duncan, the best basketball player in NBA history. The rest of the team are role players.
How in the hell can Mo replace Manu? He plays more minutes on a team that needs him to play those minutes because of lack of talent, and he still puts up less than Manu.

[ShoogarBear]

Given his efficiency, clutchness and selflessness (i.e. flip-flopping between bench player and starter on the coach's whim), I don't think there is any single player I can think of that could replace what Ginobili does for us right now.Of course, he also can't play heavy minutes, which is a major reason why he needs to be on the bench. And people continually underestimate how much Manu needs to have Duncan on the floor to take defensive pressure off of him.

You really believe the Spurs couldn't be as good as they are if they had LeBron or Kobe at the 2/3 playing 37 minutes a game?

[mavs>spurs2]

For me, Duncan is always the MVP of this team.
Manu is vital to their success. So is Parker. So are the role players.
But take away Duncan and this team does not win Championships.

Yea, and take away Manu and you also lose the 2005 and 2007 championships, that's a two way street. And as for as 2005 and 2008 goes, yes Manu is the MVP.

[TwoHandJam]

Mo Williams :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol , could Mo have led Argentina to the Olympic gold? can he take over a game, gimme a break man, at least make some valid comparisons. Mo hasn't done anything in the NBA.
No joke.

If it was just about stats (which Manu bests Mo in virtually every category across the board - in 6 less mpg) the we could replace Tim with KG as well.

[doldrums]

Of course, he also can't play heavy minutes, which is a major reason why he needs to be on the bench. And people continually underestimate how much Manu needs to have Duncan on the floor to take defensive pressure off of him.

You really believe the Spurs couldn't be as good as they are if they had LeBron or Kobe at the 2/3 playing 37 minutes a game?

If you are going to compare him to Kobe or Lebron, then Ok, they could replace him, but we have some dingbat claiming Mo Willaims which instantly makes anything else he posts lose all credibility

[ShoogarBear]

Come on Shoog... you know better than to say this? I mean, name another player that would bring what Manu brings, in the same amount of minutes, who wouldn't take a hit if he was required to come off the bench... just name one? By the way, given that we are talking about the NBA, and salary is an issue, you should also keep the list down to those in Manu's salary range. Same case scenario with Parker.
Sorry, last time I checked "same amount of minutes" and "salary range" have nothing to do with MVP designation. If you're going to add those, then yeah, Manu has no competition.

[MmP]

To me there's no doubt that only this season Manu has been the leader of the team, but overall Tim is soul of the team. Manu has hit game winners, score 40+, taken over games, what else does he has to do to be the MVP of the team?

[td4mvp21]

This is going to turn into yet another Parker vs. Manu thread...

As for the question, MVP=Most Valuable Player. Ginobili is a very, very valuable player to the Spurs. So is Parker. Their value to the Spurs can be felt any time either of them gets injured. Together, they are arguably the league's best backcourt. However, THE most valuable player on this team is Duncan. Ginobili can put up all these numbers and so can Parker, but if you take away Duncan, this team isn't a serious playoff contender. Duncan is this team's foundation.

[TwoHandJam]

Of course, he also can't play heavy minutes, which is a major reason why he needs to be on the bench. And people continually underestimate how much Manu needs to have Duncan on the floor to take defensive pressure off of him.

You really believe the Spurs couldn't be as good as they are if they had LeBron or Kobe at the 2/3 playing 37 minutes a game?
I believe Kobe and LeBron are probably the only 2 players in the league that could approach what Manu does for us. Although, my argument is that they couldn't/wouldn't do what Manu does which is:

1) Play less minutes and stay insanely efficient.
2) Come off the bench.
3) Play for what Manu is being paid to keep our team intact.

Sure, our team would be better with Kobe/Lebron but we definitely couldn't keep the same role players we have now. There's no one I can think of that you could just "plug in" to replace Manu without blowing up the roster.

[Spurminator]

Manu winning MVP for this season would be like Parker winning Finals MVP last year. I couldn't fault the choice but this thing still revolves around Duncan. It's pretty ridiculous that he keeps getting overlooked... Manu is the Pierce to Duncan's KG. And yet the Big Ticket seems to have top 2 or 3 locked up.

[ShoogarBear]

This is going to turn into yet another Parker vs. Manu thread...

As for the question, MVP=Most Valuable Player. Ginobili is a very, very valuable player to the Spurs. So is Parker. Their value to the Spurs can be felt any time either of them gets injured. Together, they are arguably the league's best backcourt. However, THE most valuable player on this team is Duncan. Ginobili can put up all these numbers and so can Parker, but if you take away Duncan, this team isn't a serious playoff contender. Duncan is this team's foundation.:tu

There is only one irreplacable part on the Spurs, and he wears #21.

[ShoogarBear]

Manu winning MVP for this season would be like Parker winning Finals MVP last year. I couldn't fault the choice but this thing still revolves around Duncan. It's pretty ridiculous that he keeps getting overlooked... Manu is the Pierce to Duncan's KG. And yet the Big Ticket seems to have top 2 or 3 locked up.Pierce is another good addition to list of someone who could be switched out for Manu.

[peskypesky]

Most people who don't understand basketball fail to realize that basketball is not all about scoring. Sure, it's the most talked-about stat, but it's only one of many important aspects of the game. And yes, Ginobili has a slight edge in scoring over Duncan at the moment. Slight.

But right up there with scoring is a thing called rebounding. Do you know what that is? Guess who leads the Spurs by a long shot in rebounding? It's not Ginobili.

Another important aspect of the game is defense, especially protecting the rim. Guess who's the best Spur at defending the rim, by a long shot? Again, it's not Ginobili.

Now, I love Manu. He's my second favorite player in the game. And he is CRUCIAL to the Spurs' success this year and every year. But that being said, I never make the mistake of forgetting that basketball is a game of big men, and the Spurs are built around one of the top 10 big men to ever play the game. He is their MVP this year, and every year he's been on the team.

You doubt the importance of a dominant big man? Look at the Lakers' last night. Despite Kobe's 50+ points, they lost at home to the Grizzlies! Because they had no Gasol and no Bynum. You take Duncan off the Spurs, sure, Manu might average 29pts a game, but they wouldn't make the playoffs this year, and they definitely wouldn't be contending for a 5th Championship.

Just ask George Gervin how many Championships he won without a dominant big man.

[remingtonbo2001]

Tim Duncan is the best player on the Spurs and the foundation of its success, but I don't view him as the leader of the Spurs. First off, if anyone is the leader of the Spurs, it's Pop. If you were to name a player, it's Manu. That's part of his value, his leadership, his selflessness, his sacrifice, his attitude.

:tu Good Answer.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

:tu

There is only one irreplacable part on the Spurs, and he wears #21.I do believe he still is too. However, can you seriously tell me Manu hasn't carried the Spurs this season as much as Duncan? I do think this season has been Tim's and Manu's not just Tim anymore.

[mavs>spurs2]

This is going to turn into yet another Parker vs. Manu thread...

As for the question, MVP=Most Valuable Player. Ginobili is a very, very valuable player to the Spurs. So is Parker. Their value to the Spurs can be felt any time either of them gets injured. Together, they are arguably the league's best backcourt. However, THE most valuable player on this team is Duncan. Ginobili can put up all these numbers and so can Parker, but if you take away Duncan, this team isn't a serious playoff contender. Duncan is this team's foundation.

And you think this team seriously contends for a championship without Manu? Seriously??

[timaios]

For me, Duncan is always the MVP of this team.
Manu is vital to their success. So is Parker. So are the role players.
But take away Duncan and this team does not win Championships.

You can say the same thing with Manu, Tony and Bruce.

[MmP]

This is going to turn into yet another Parker vs. Manu thread...

As for the question, MVP=Most Valuable Player. Ginobili is a very, very valuable player to the Spurs. So is Parker. Their value to the Spurs can be felt any time either of them gets injured. Together, they are arguably the league's best backcourt. However, THE most valuable player on this team is Duncan. Ginobili can put up all these numbers and so can Parker, but if you take away Duncan, this team isn't a serious playoff contender. Duncan is this team's foundation.
Yes, there's no doubt that TD is the team's foundation, if you take out Tim from the lineup probably the Spurs are garbage, but the discussion here is this year's MVP. Tim has had up and downs while Manu has been consistent all year long.

[td4mvp21]

I do believe he still is too. However, can you seriously tell me Manu hasn't carried the Spurs this season as much as Duncan? I do think this season has been Tim's and Manu's not just Tim anymore.

Well Ginobili has carried the Spurs a lot this season alongside Tim, and at times, he has carried us by himself rather than Tim. But that doesn't make him MVP.

[ducks]

you know duncan is replaceable to
spur fans said no one would replace david robinson (who is my favorite spur player ever)
then came along Mr Tim Duncan
there will be another player close if not better player on the spurs then Mr Tim Duncan
no offense to duncan

all players are replaceble
you just can not replace them with knick players

[td4mvp21]

And you think this team seriously contends for a championship without Manu? Seriously??

The Spurs without Parker/Ginobili would still be a serious playoff contender but not a championship contender. The Spurs without Duncan would be neither of the latter.

[ShoogarBear]

I believe Kobe and LeBron are probably the only 2 players in the league that could approach what Manu does for us. Although, my argument is that they couldn't/wouldn't do what Manu does which is:

1) Play less minutes and stay insanely efficient.
2) Come off the bench.
3) Play for what Manu is being paid to keep our team intact.

Sure, our team would be better with Kobe/Lebron but we definitely couldn't keep the same role players we have now. There's no one I can think of that you could just "plug in" to replace Manu without blowing up the roster.But see, now you're adding additional constraints to the argument.

My point is that NOBODY else in the league can currently replace what Duncan does, no matter how you phrase the question.

You can't say the same about any other player on the Spurs. Actually, you could argue that the second-most irreplacable is Bowen, since the list of shut-down perimeter defenders in the league is minimal.

[duncan228]

Yea, and take away Manu and you also lose the 2005 and 2007 championships, that's a two way street. And as for as 2005 and 2008 goes, yes Manu is the MVP.

I don't agree for the '05 Title.
Manu was incredible, Horry won game 5 after Duncan put up 26 and 19 and wore out. (Only Duncan could have those numbers and have it be considered a bad game. :lol)

It was Duncan who took the team on his back in game 7. It was Duncan who drew the double teams and got the passes to Manu and Bowen. Pop said after that game that Duncan was just not going to let them lose. There's a clip of a time out where Duncan tells them to be ready for his passes. From the 6 minute mark in the third to the buzzer, game 7 was Duncan.

For '07, Duncan got us through the Playoffs and Parker took it in the Finals. We wouldn't have gotten to the Finals if not for Duncan.

It's a team sport, it takes all of them. But Duncan is the core.

[ducks]

Yes, there's no doubt that TD is the team's foundation, if you take out Tim from the lineup probably the Spurs are garbage, but the discussion here is this year's MVP. Tim has had up and downs while Manu has been consistent all year long.
you know what people said that about houston take ming out they are garbage
you know what they are still winning games

[ducks]

I don't agree for the '05 Title.
Manu was incredible, Horry won game 5 after Duncan put up 26 and 19 and wore out. (Only Duncan could have those numbers and have it be considered a bad game. :lol)

It was Duncan who took the team on his back in game 7. It was Duncan who drew the double teams and got the passes to Manu and Bowen. Pop said after that game that Duncan was just not going to let them lose. There's a clip of a time out where Duncan tells them to be ready for his passes. From the 6 minute mark in the third to the buzzer, game 7 was Duncan.

For '07, Duncan got us through the Playoffs and Parker took it in the Finals. We wouldn't have gotten to the Finals if not for Duncan.

It's a team sport, it takes all of them. But Duncan is the core.
horry won the game by himself wow

[td4mvp21]

you know duncan is replaceable to
spur fans said no one would replace david robinson (who is my favorite spur player ever)
then came along Mr Tim Duncan
there will be another player close if not better player on the spurs then Mr Tim Duncan
no offense to duncan

all players are replaceble
you just can not replace them with knick players

You can't sit there and predict that. What Duncan has done for this team isn't replaceable in the least bit. Every year he's been on this team we've won 50+ games (or the equivalent), we've won 4 championships, we've been the best road team, we've won 70% of our games (the highest out of ALL FOUR major sports teams), and he's one of the top 10 players of all time. Duncan isn't replaceable at all, and that's really, really unfortunate because he can't last forever.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Well Ginobili has carried the Spurs a lot this season alongside Tim, and at times, he has carried us by himself rather than Tim. But that doesn't make him MVP.All I'm saying is, Tim's been the obvious MVP for the past decade. The fact that Manu is being mentioned in the same breath when it comes to MVP is quite an accomplishment. I still think Tim is the MVP of this team, but I don't believe Manu is that far away from being considered just as valuable. Again, I'm not talking careerwise, we all know what Tim was in his prime, and the fact he's still this good today is a testament to how incredible he is. I'm talking only for this season.

[spursfan09]

No its always Tim Duncan. Think about it. If Tim leaves the team, Spurs are pretty much written off. If Manu leaves the team, they are still consdidered contenders. However Manu + Tim= 3 championships in the past 5 years.

[mavs>spurs2]

I don't agree for the '05 Title.
Manu was incredible, Horry won game 5 after Duncan put up 26 and 19 and wore out. (Only Duncan could have those numbers and have it be considered a bad game. :lol)

It was Duncan who took the team on his back in game 7. It was Duncan who drew the double teams and got the passes to Manu and Bowen. Pop said after that game that Duncan was just not going to let them lose. There's a clip of a time out where Duncan tells them to be ready for his passes. From the 6 minute mark in the third to the buzzer, game 7 was Duncan.

For '07, Duncan got us through the Playoffs and Parker took it in the Finals. We wouldn't have gotten to the Finals if not for Duncan.

It's a team sport, it takes all of them. But Duncan is the core.

How is Duncan the core when u cannot win without any of the 3? Sounds like they are all the core, and just for the record Manu DID outplay Tim in 2005 and for the 2008 regular season. We'll have to wait and see what happens in the playoffs.

[ShoogarBear]

Final point: whenever Duncan has a bad game, everybody knows it, and dumps on him mercilessly (me included).

Whenever Manu has a bad game, nobody mentions it, or it's because Tony didn't get him the ball, or Pop screwed up, or he was too tired, etc. etc.

[td4mvp21]

All I'm saying is, Tim's been the obvious MVP for the past decade. The fact that Manu is being mentioned in the same breath when it comes to MVP is quite an accomplishment. I still think Tim is the MVP of this team, but I don't believe Manu is that far away from being considered just as valuable. Again, I'm not talking careerwise, we all know what Tim was in his prime, and the fact he's still this good today is a testament to how incredible he is. I'm talking only for this season.

Understandable. I would definitely say he's had a better season than Tim. Ginobili is a very underrated player and he has developed into a damn good SG, probably top 5 in the league.

[DAF86]

Duncan MVP

Tony Parker 2nd

Bowen third

Manu 4th

There is a huge drop off after Parker goes out.

Bowen is 1st team all defense, but manu is not 1st team, all offense.

this has to be a joke

[sassystriker]

How is Duncan the core when u cannot win without any of the 3? Sounds like they are all the core, and just for the record Manu DID outplay Tim in 2005 and for the 2008 regular season. We'll have to wait and see what happens in the playoffs.


Agree.

[ducks]

You can't sit there and predict that. What Duncan has done for this team isn't replaceable in the least bit. Every year he's been on this team we've won 50+ games (or the equivalent), we've won 4 championships, we've been the best road team, we've won 70% of our games (the highest out of ALL FOUR major sports teams), and he's one of the top 10 players of all time. Duncan isn't replaceable at all, and that's really, really unfortunate because he can't last forever.
people said the same thing with MR DAVID ROBINSON

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Final point: whenever Duncan has a bad game, everybody knows it, and dumps on him mercilessly (me included).

Whenever Manu has a bad game, nobody mentions it, or it's because Tony didn't get him the ball, or Pop screwed up, or he was too tired, etc. etc.
Yea that pretty much sums it up.

[mavs>spurs2]

The Spurs without Parker/Ginobili would still be a serious playoff contender but not a championship contender. The Spurs without Duncan would be neither of the latter.

Oh comon thats pure bias, for god sakes your name IS td4mvp21. The Spurs without Duncan would still be a 7th or 8th seed. If you haven't noticed, everything no longer goes through Tim every possession and Manu is the team's playmaker. I'll never understand why fans of certain teams hate on one of their own, especially someone as great as Manu.

[td4mvp21]

people said the same thing with MR DAVID ROBINSON

Oh my bad, I forgot he brought us 4 championships before Tim got here and led us to the best win % out of the four major sports. My bad!

[Spurminator]

Final point: whenever Duncan has a bad game, everybody knows it, and dumps on him mercilessly (me included).

Whenever Manu has a bad game, nobody mentions it, or it's because Tony didn't get him the ball, or Pop screwed up, or he was too tired, etc. etc.


When Manu has a bad game, he can hide a little bit where he's not getting in the way. When Duncan has a bad game, we still revolve around him (at least defensively) and we're still better off with him on the court.

That said, I'd still want Manu out there in the 4th quarter even if he was 0-16 for the first three.

[ducks]

Final point: whenever Duncan has a bad game, everybody knows it, and dumps on him mercilessly (me included).

Whenever Manu has a bad game, nobody mentions it, or it's because Tony didn't get him the ball, or Pop screwed up, or he was too tired, etc. etc.
it is because he scores most of his points in 4 quarter so must think he wins the game
it does not matter how well the other players play the first 3/4 of the game

[JamStone]

For this year, THIS YEAR, if you take Manu off the Spurs, they are probably out of the playoff race in the West.

[mavs>spurs2]

Tim has been the face of the franchise for the past decade and definately has had the better career, no one is trying to downplay his accomplishments. But we're talking about THIS SEASON people.

[ducks]

Oh my bad, I forgot he brought us 4 championships before Tim got here and led us to the best win % out of the four major sports. My bad!
MR TIM DUNCAN has alot better teamates then David Robinson had

David never had a finals mvp player to play with him most of the time

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Final point: whenever Duncan has a bad game, everybody knows it, and dumps on him mercilessly (me included).

Whenever Manu has a bad game, nobody mentions it, or it's because Tony didn't get him the ball, or Pop screwed up, or he was too tired, etc. etc.What does that have to do with anything?

[mavs>spurs2]

For this year, THIS YEAR, if you take Manu off the Spurs, they are probably out of the playoff race in the West.

Lol, beat me to it but basically the same idea.

[ducks]

For this year, THIS YEAR, if you take Manu off the Spurs, they are probably out of the playoff race in the West.
spurs would be the 7-8 seed
depends also on who you replace manu with
you replace him with pierce between 4-8 seed

[ShoogarBear]

When Manu has a bad game, he can hide a little bit where he's not getting in the way. When Duncan has a bad game, we still revolve around him (at least defensively) and we're still better off with him on the court.Sounds like the definition of an MVP.


That said, I'd still want Manu out there in the 4th quarter even if he was 0-16 for the first three.Not arguing that.

[MmP]

I think people here don't realize that some are discussing different things...
TD has and will be the MVP of the team.
As for this season (only) Manu has been the MVP.

[ShoogarBear]

For this year, THIS YEAR, if you take Manu off the Spurs, they are probably out of the playoff race in the West.And if you took Duncan off, the Spurs wouldn't make the NIT.

[ducks]

What does that have to do with anything?
most here are manu homers so they are not objective

[All Seeing Eye]

Ginobili should stop flopping. Someone's going to get hurt.

[timaios]

This thread is useless.
I don't care who is the mvp, basketball is a TEAM sport.
I love the TEAM.

And all begin with the playoffs !!!

Tim is boring with the regular season, he will be huge for the repeat.
Manu has his best season ever !
Tony is Tony again.
Bruce is ready for the west "dirty" battle.

We need all of them (and the others) for the title.

[ShoogarBear]

What does that have to do with anything?Well, to start with it provides an insight into why people might think Manu is the MVP.

And basketball-wise, perhaps it indicates that the Spurs can compensate for bad games by Manu more easily than they can those by Duncan?

[TwoHandJam]

But see, now you're adding additional constraints to the argument.

My point is that NOBODY else in the league can currently replace what Duncan does, no matter how you phrase the question.

You can't say the same about any other player on the Spurs. Actually, you could argue that the second-most irreplacable is Bowen, since the list of shut-down perimeter defenders in the league is minimal.
I already agreed that Tim is the MVP of our team. You said that Manu could be replaced by others in the NBA.

I'm just qualifying that term "replaced". I don't think you can find another NBA player who can do what Manu does for us. If you want to remain realistic, you have to consider the other very real constraints of the league. It's also not a given that Kobe/LeBron would retain Manu's level of efficiency if you reduce their minutes and/or have them come off the bench.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

most here are manu homers so they are not objectivethat's such a cop out. I think some people have made some valid points. Its easier to label people homers and disregard what's said than to actually focus on the subject at hand. I'm not saying there aren't manu homers in here because... well, I can read, but I do think Manu has been sensational this year, to the point that one could make a decent argument for his Spurs MVP status (THIS SEASON). The fact that an argument can be made is incredible in its own right.

[td4mvp21]

Oh comon thats pure bias, for god sakes your name IS td4mvp21.
I don't give a fuck what my username is. It doesn't affect my logic at all.


The Spurs without Duncan would still be a 7th or 8th seed.
Not in this year's playoff race. We would be lucky to win 50 games.



If you haven't noticed, everything no longer goes through Tim every possession and Manu is the team's playmaker.
Bitch, I watch every fucking Spurs game. You watch 4-10 PER YEAR. I know how the offense works. The offense doesn't go through Tim because we have two damn good players in Parker and Ginobili that can take the load off of Duncan in the regular season. In the playoffs, guess who the offense goes through? Tim Duncan. If Pop wanted to rely on Duncan and play him 38 mpg, and run the offense through him, he'd be averaging about 26 and 14 I'd bet. He doesn't have to touch the ball on every possession for the Spurs to win. But he is the core of this team, just because the offesne doesn't not run through him in the fucking regular season does not change that fact.


I'll never understand why fans of certain teams hate on one of their own, especially someone as great as Manu.
Quote me and show me where the fuck I hated on Manu, or Tony, for that matter? I have offered nothing but praise for them, as they deserve. Just because I say they aren't the MVP doens't equate that to hate. Not at all.

Ignorant, stupid posts like yours piss me the fuck off. You're a fucking Mavs fan, you don't watch more than 15 Spurs games per year and you're telling us who the Spurs MVP is? Bullshit to that.

[td4mvp21]

most here are manu homers so they are not objective

Manumaniac has been pretty objective this thread. You are the biased one ducks.

[ShoogarBear]

I already agreed that Tim is the MVP of our team. You said that Manu could be replaced by others in the NBA.

I'm just qualifying that term "replaced". I don't think you can find another NBA player who can do what Manu does for us. If you want to remain realistic, you have to consider the other very real constraints of the league. It's also not a given that Kobe/LeBron would retain Manu's level of efficiency if you reduce their minutes and/or have them come off the bench.Of course, if you're going to do all that, then you can say that Bowen is just as irreplacable.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Well, to start with it provides an insight into why people might think Manu is the MVP.

And basketball-wise, perhaps it indicates that the Spurs can compensate for bad games by Manu more easily than they can those by Duncan?ok, point taken.

Still, you really don't think Manu has been as valuable to the Spurs success this season as Tim has? or more importantly how big do you see the gap between Tim's contributions and Manu's, being?

[ducks]

Manumaniac has been pretty objective this thread. You are the biased one ducks.
other ones in this thread do not think manu is the mvp
are they biased?
I am not saying Manumaniac was being biased?
I am just stating the reason I thought shogabear posted that

[TheTruth]

Didn't read the whole thread, but to say that anyone other than Timmy is the Spurs' MVP is just plain stupid. Manu doesn't have near the room to operate if Timmy doesn't have those double teams in the post. A dominant post player will ALWAYS be more valuable than a dominant perimeter player. I don't care how many game winning shot's the guard or forward scores.

[TheTruth]

ok, point taken.

Still, you really don't think Manu has been as valuable to the Spurs success this season as Tim has? or more importantly how big do you see the gap between Tim's contributions and Manu's, being?
Manu's importance is more reliant on Timmy than the other way around.

[TheTruth]

Ginobili should stop flopping. Someone's going to get hurt.
Raja Bell for the win.

[DAF86]

the spurs MVP was is and will always be Tim Duncan. with that beign said i do think that this season our best player has been Manu not only because he has carry this team for most part of the season but also for the games in which he did this.
37 pts. against the mavs and jazz without duncan, during the rodeo trip without parker and on every close game that needed a clutch play while he let the others take over against the bulls, kings and others sub .500 teams.
and for those that say that manu is only scoring look at this number for a subSG that plays only 30 min per game 4.6 assts. 4.8 rebs. and 1.7 stls. not to mention that he's 1st in the team in scoring but only 3rd in FG attemps.
without duncan this team isn't a championship contender but without manu either.
oh, i almost forgot. for the few ones saying that manu isn't the spurs 2nd best player, you should learn a little bit more about basketball

[E20]

Well, to start with it provides an insight into why people might think Manu is the MVP.

And basketball-wise, perhaps it indicates that the Spurs can compensate for bad games by Manu more easily than they can those by Duncan?
Whose had more bad games this season? Manu or Duncan? Manu plays a lot, not all of his minutes, when Tim and Tony are on the bench.

[mavs>spurs2]

I don't give a fuck what my username is. It doesn't affect my logic at all.


Not in this year's playoff race. We would be lucky to win 50 games.


Bitch, I watch every fucking Spurs game. You watch 4-10 PER YEAR. I know how the offense works. The offense doesn't go through Tim because we have two damn good players in Parker and Ginobili that can take the load off of Duncan in the regular season. In the playoffs, guess who the offense goes through? Tim Duncan. If Pop wanted to rely on Duncan and play him 38 mpg, and run the offense through him, he'd be averaging about 26 and 14 I'd bet. He doesn't have to touch the ball on every possession for the Spurs to win. But he is the core of this team, just because the offesne doesn't not run through him in the fucking regular season does not change that fact.


Quote me and show me where the fuck I hated on Manu, or Tony, for that matter? I have offered nothing but praise for them, as they deserve. Just because I say they aren't the MVP doens't equate that to hate. Not at all.

Ignorant, stupid posts like yours piss me the fuck off. You're a fucking Mavs fan, you don't watch more than 15 Spurs games per year and you're telling us who the Spurs MVP is? Bullshit to that.

Your excessive cursing lets me know right off the bat who is right and who is wrong here.

You say that the Spurs would not make the playoffs without Duncan, but they would still make it without Tony, and Manu. That is a two way street, the Spurs are 5 games from the 9th seed AT FULL STRENGTH. Meaning no team could make the playoffs this year with key components out for the season.

You bitch about me not watching enough Spur games and you are their number one fan blah blah blah..you have no idea how many games I watch or don't watch and I DO happen to know alot about all things basketball. I'm not alone in my assertion that Manu is this years MVP for the Spurs regular season. The man has been absolutely amazing and nothing short of it. His stats are up in every major category, but i'm not basing my opinion off stats. Watch the games, and you will see that Manu is the teams best playmaker for the 2007-2008 REGULAR SEASON, NOTHING MORE NOTHING LESS, that is what this discussion is about. Tim is a great player, but if you cannot handle an honest basketball discussion without getting your feelings hurt then what are you doing on a sports messageboard? You know that saying..Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house.

[JamStone]

And if you took Duncan off, the Spurs wouldn't make the NIT.

Without Tim Duncan this season, but with both Manu and Parker still, the Spurs are 2-1, beating both Dallas and Utah, and losing to Golden State at Golden State by 8 points.

[TheTruth]

Whose had more bad games this season? Manu or Duncan?
Tim's bad games usually include about 12 rebounds and double teams on him all game long. Those double teams are what create all the room for Manu to be Manu.

Manu is a bad ass no doubt. Timmy is more important to the Spurs. Especially when things get real rough in the playoffs.

[E20]

Rebounds don't really put up points on the board.

[ducks]

Rebounds don't really put up points on the board.
no because the d rebound keeps the other team from scoring true

[mavs>spurs2]

Didn't read the whole thread, but to say that anyone other than Timmy is the Spurs' MVP is just plain stupid. Manu doesn't have near the room to operate if Timmy doesn't have those double teams in the post. A dominant post player will ALWAYS be more valuable than a dominant perimeter player. I don't care how many game winning shot's the guard or forward scores.

You just said it, you didn't read the whole thread and don't pay attention to detail. Your opinions are probably just based on the fact that Tim has been the face of this team for the past decade, and nothing more. This discussion is only about the 2007-2008 regular season. I agree Tim Duncan has had the better NBA career by a longshot.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Your excessive cursing lets me know right off the bat who is right and who is wrong here.

You say that the Spurs would not make the playoffs without Duncan, but they would still make it without Tony, and Manu. That is a two way street, the Spurs are 5 games from the 9th seed AT FULL STRENGTH. Meaning no team could make the playoffs this year with key components out for the season.

You bitch about me not watching enough Spur games and you are their number one fan blah blah blah..you have no idea how many games I watch or don't watch and I DO happen to know alot about all things basketball. I'm not alone in my assertion that Manu is this years MVP for the Spurs regular season. The man has been absolutely amazing and nothing short of it. His stats are up in every major category, but i'm not basing my opinion off stats. Watch the games, and you will see that Manu is the teams best playmaker for the 2007-2008 REGULAR SEASON, NOTHING MORE NOTHING LESS, that is what this discussion is about. Tim is a great player, but if you cannot handle an honest basketball discussion without getting your feelings hurt then what are you doing on a sports messageboard? You know that saying..Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house.
I think he took exception to the fact you basically boiled down his opinion down to him hating on Manu, which IMO was not the case. I can see where he was coming from. Its hard to knock someone for honestly believing Tim is the Spurs most valuable player. It has nothing to do with hate. If anything its become custom :lol

I for one, am just glad to see Manu making a case for himself, even if the result is quite deservingly Duncan again.

[td4mvp21]

Your excessive cursing lets me know right off the bat who is right and who is wrong here.
It shoudl have let you known that your ignorance pissed me off, but I woudn't have expected you to understand that


.
Look I know that Ginobili has been so important to the Spurs this season. So has Parker! So has Duncan! Even if we are still talking about this season, Duncan is still our MVP! He is our most valuable player. It's hard to replace any one of our Big Three, but the most irreplaceable, valuable is Duncan. We can find other very talented, scoring guards in the league (a handful, nonetheless), but we can't find another dominant powerforward who is perhaps one of the top 10 players of all time. We just can't. That isn't to hate on Tony Parker or Manu Ginobili like you said-it's stating what I feel is truth. I love Ginobili and Parker but they aren't htis team's most valuable player. This team starts and ends with Duncan and that's that. Ginobili should deserve MVP consideration this season, so should Parker! But Duncan should be ahead of both of them.

[td4mvp21]

I think he took exception to the fact you basically boiled down his opinion down to him hating on Manu, which IMO was not the case. I can see where he was coming from. Its hard to knock someone for honestly believing Tim is the Spurs most valuable player. It has nothing to do with hate. If anything it become custom :lol

:tu That's what made me mad. People can think Ginobili is MVP, because he deserves the consideration. But don't tell me I'm hating on him for saying he's not MVP.

[ShoogarBear]

ok, point taken.

Still, you really don't think Manu has been as valuable to the Spurs success this season as Tim has? or more importantly how big do you see the gap between Tim's contributions and Manu's, being?Manu has been excellent. There's little more that you can ask for than what he's done this season. But for some reason, there's always this runaway emotional attachment that limits objective discussion of him (not from you Manumanic, but others).

Manu is able to do what he does in large part because he has Tim Duncan (and to a lesser extent Parker) carrying the burden until he can pick his spots. I agree with whoever said that calling Manu the MVP this year is akin to calling Tony the MVP of the 2007 Finals. You can call him that, and give him props for his accomplishments, but don't for a minute forget who the real MVP is.

[TwoHandJam]

Of course, if you're going to do all that, then you can say that Bowen is just as irreplacable.
Who wouldn't argue that Bowen makes a case for best perimeter defender in the league? He's almost irreplaceable in what he brings to our team although I feel he could be replaced with less churn on the roster than moving someone like Manu might bring.

[ShoogarBear]

Without Tim Duncan this season, but with both Manu and Parker still, the Spurs are 2-1, beating both Dallas and Utah, and losing to Golden State at Golden State by 8 points.Please don't tell me you really think you have made a point there.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Manu has been excellent. There's little more that you can ask for than what he's done this season. But for some reason, there's always this runaway emotional attachment that limits objective discussion of him.

Manu is able to do what he does in large part because he has Tim Duncan (and to a lesser extent Parker) carrying the burden until he can pick his spots. I agree with whoever said that calling Manu the MVP this year is akin to calling Tony the MVP of the 2007 Finals. You can call him that, and give him props for his accomplishments, but don't for a minute forget who the real MVP is.Fair enough. I do believe we were on the same page from the beginning. I still don't think Manu is as replaceable as you make him out to be though.

[mavs>spurs2]

:tu That's what made me mad. People can think Ginobili is MVP, because he deserves the consideration. But don't tell me I'm hating on him for saying he's not MVP.

All one can do is watch the games. By doing so it appears that Ginobili is usually the best player on the court for the Spurs, but like you said that may just be part of the plan to keep Tim rested for the playoffs. As far as regular season goes, Ginobili is MVP, and for all I know Duncan could be the finals MVP if the Spurs once again win it all. I was in no way trying to argue who has been the MVP for the past decade, only one measly regular season.

[Jimcs50]

You put TD on any team in top 10 this year, and they would win the championship this year without a sweat. Manu would impact a lot of teams, but not to that extent.

[bobbyjoe]

I don't agree for the '05 Title.
Manu was incredible, Horry won game 5 after Duncan put up 26 and 19 and wore out. (Only Duncan could have those numbers and have it be considered a bad game. :lol)

It was Duncan who took the team on his back in game 7. It was Duncan who drew the double teams and got the passes to Manu and Bowen. Pop said after that game that Duncan was just not going to let them lose. There's a clip of a time out where Duncan tells them to be ready for his passes. From the 6 minute mark in the third to the buzzer, game 7 was Duncan.

For '07, Duncan got us through the Playoffs and Parker took it in the Finals. We wouldn't have gotten to the Finals if not for Duncan.

It's a team sport, it takes all of them. But Duncan is the core.

It was a bad game by Duncan because he went 1 of 7 from the FT line in the 4th Q with the game on the line and missed a point blank tip in from 2 feet to win the game.

Duncan also shot only 40% from the field from the entire series. Rasheed gave him a lot of trouble defensively. He did not play well that series and Manu was easily the MVP of that particular series.

It was the lowest FG% by any Finals MVP in the history of the NBA...

[JamStone]

Please don't tell me you really think you have made a point there.

As it pertains to your hyperbolic comment that the Spurs couldn't even make it to the NIT without Duncan, absolutely.

If the Spurs had to play without Duncan, of course they wouldn't be nearly as good. I have no doubt that Pop and the team would adjust, and they'd be contending for a playoff spot.

[roycrikside]

Anyone who thinks the Spurs are a playoff team without either Manu or Tim is insane. The West is just too good. We'd be below the Kings in the standings without either one.
I'm not even sure we could sneak in as the 8th seed without Tony, and he's having an off year compared to the last two.

The facts are these... Manu is having a career year, Duncan's had better years and Tony's been injured and off a lot, so combining those three factors, one can make a case for Manu being the team's MVP. He's probably been their most consistent player, especially in games that are against good teams. He's the guy that has turned a lot of losses into wins, simple as that. Who's been a more clutch 4th quarter player in the NBA this year?

Anyway, the reason we are having the Tim/Manu debate and both sides can make points is that I honestly believe one can argue that this season they have been the 5th and 6th best players in the league, in however order you care to put them. Having two guys in the top ten is the ONLY reason our record is what it is and that we have a prayer or repeating, because players 4-12 this squad is significantly worse than a lot of other contenders.

[roycrikside]

I think with the right personnel Manu could carry an NBA team all the way. He has shown an ability to do so without Tim, but only in a small sample. Still, it would have to be the perfect GM and the perfect coach who could put such a roster together though.

Obviously Tim can do so as well, he's proven that in '99 and '03, back when Manu's role was much smaller.

I will say this much though. Take Manu off the Spurs. Now replace his 9M salary and his role with other players. It'd be very difficult to still put together a playoff team with that limitation.

But take Tim off the Spurs and you have, what, a 20M salary to play with? I think you can get some quality bigs for that kind of change.

[Spurs Dynasty 21]

without Duncan, Manu can't do what he does



this is even more the case with Parker

[DAF86]

without Duncan, Manu can't do what he does



this is even more the case with Parker

manu has done what he's doing through all his life all around the world at all levels

[mavs>spurs2]

One thing i'm noticing throughout this thread, the only people unwilling to believe that Manu could possibly be the MVP just this one season are those with the following in their usernames:

duncan
21
td
tim

[2centsworth]

without Manu, Tony and Bruce the Spurs were getting rolled in the playoffs. With Tony, Manu and Bruce the Spurs have won 3 out of 5 championships. Those guys are not easily replaceable and anyone who suggest they are is an idiot.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

One thing i'm noticing throughout this thread, the only people unwilling to believe that Manu could possibly be the MVP just this one season are those with the following in their usernames:

duncan
21
td
tim
:lol

[hitmanyr2k]

Ginobili is the MVP of the team this year. It's not even about stats. It's about his intensity and will to win. He's been bailing the Spurs in the 4th qtr all year. He gives them toughness when they don't seem to have any. Too many times I've seen Duncan puss out this year on both ends and just act like he's not even interested in games. Call it boredom. Call it fatigue or whatever but I've compared him to an over-the-hill Shaq many times this season because he's deserved it. Yeah, Duncan is the anchor and backbone blah blah blah but at the same time if he's the MVP of this team he should be BRINGING IT like he's the MVP of this team. The fact that there is even talk of Ginobili being the best of the Spurs right now solidifies that Duncan hasn't been playing to his capability. If Duncan played like he had some pride instead of having his head up his ass half the time this thread wouldn't exist right now and that's a fact.

[Cherry]

To me there's no doubt that only this season Manu has been the leader of the team, but overall Tim is soul of the team. Manu has hit game winners, score 40+, taken over games, what else does he has to do to be the MVP of the team?

...i dont know... marketing?

[Cherry]

Question to all: Define MVP in general. What a MVP is?

[td4mvp21]

define MVP

I already did. It's most valuable player. I gave my reasonings and I'm not discussing it anymore because I get called biased and a hater.

[Warlord23]

I can't believe this is even a point of discussion.

1. Ths Spurs' system is based on what Duncan brings to the table. The FO has always tried to fit the right pieces around him. You cannot build a system this successful based on a perimeter player at both ends of the floor.

2. Who can replace Duncan on the Spurs? KG? Doesn't play the low post, isn't a shot blocking/altering threat. Shaq? Amare? Dwight? Dirk? Gasol? No, no, no. Every playoff run we ride on Duncan to get out of the West. It is Duncan who shoulders the load against Dallas, Phoenix, Utah, Denver, etc. The only 2 series where Duncan could've done better in all his playoff runs were: Cleveland and Detroit. But without Duncan they wouldn't have reached that far.

3. Is Manu replaceable? Difficult, but possible. I'd gladly take Pierce or James or Kobe to play Manu's role. Remember that Duncan won with SJax as his # 2, that he got to the WCF with Derek Anderson as his # 2.

4. Defense. Without Manu, the Spurs' offense will surely suffer. But the D will not be affected. You take Timmy out, and our D goes for a toss. The same can be said about our rebounding.

Without Timmy, Pop would be running an Adelman-like Princeton offense. The fact that he calls Timmy his "QB" says it all. Timmy is a once-in-a-generation player. He's the best overall player in the post-Jordan era. It is because of him that the Spurs are the most successful pro franchise in the post-Jordan era.

Just because he isn't putting in 100% during the regular season, you can't diminish his importance to the team. Last year it was TP v.s Tim, this year it is Manu vs Tim. When the playoffs are underway, this question will again be answered. The Spurs' playoff MVP is and has always been Tim Duncan. He might have a bad series, he might have a rough stretch during the regular season. But he is the winningest player of this era. And his performance, more than anyone else, will determine how far the Spurs go. That is the definition of MVP.

[Warlord23]

without Manu, Tony and Bruce the Spurs were getting rolled in the playoffs. With Tony, Manu and Bruce the Spurs have won 3 out of 5 championships. Those guys are not easily replaceable and anyone who suggest they are is an idiot.

BS ... Tony and Manu were not even among the top 3 players in the Spurs' 2003 playoff run. Steven Jackson was the # 2, DRob/Bruce tied for # 3. Manu was a bench player playing less than 20 mins, Parker had several forgettable games. Duncan was the one who destroyed the Lakers, and then brought it home vs the Nets.

[td4mvp21]

BS ... Tony and Manu were not even among the top 3 players in the Spurs' 2003 playoff run. Steven Jackson was the # 2, DRob/Bruce tied for # 3. Manu was a bench player playing less than 20 mins, Parker had several forgettable games. Duncan was the one who destroyed the Lakers, and then brought it home vs the Nets.

Eh, I think Parker was number 2. He was wildly inconsistent but he had some nice games in the playoffs, as did Sjax. Sjax wasn't exactly Mr. Consistent either. But even so, none of those players were even close to who they are today.

[Galileo]

Is this not a forum for NBA junkies? Do people here not know that defense wins championships?

Bruce Bowen is more valuable than Manu. Bowen plays lock down D, and hits corner threes, that's what you need.

Any team can find a good scorer off the bench.

[peskypesky]

One thing i'm noticing throughout this thread, the only people unwilling to believe that Manu could possibly be the MVP just this one season are those with the following in their usernames:

duncan
21
td
tim

add me to the list. Tim Duncan is the MVP of the Spurs year in, year out.

[Cherry]

I already did. It's most valuable player. I gave my reasonings and I'm not discussing it anymore because I get called biased and a hater.

wait wait! :lol
I change my question. I want to know what a MVP is (in any team sport)

[DAF86]

Defense. Without Manu, the Spurs' offense will surely suffer. But the D will not be affected. The same can be said about our rebounding.
what are you talking about? manu's one of the best defenders guards in the league and one of the best rebounding guards also. just look at the numbers 5 rebounds in 30 min per game. that's great for a guard

[Warlord23]

Eh, I think Parker was number 2. He was wildly inconsistent but he had some nice games in the playoffs, as did Sjax. Sjax wasn't exactly Mr. Consistent either. But even so, none of those players were even close to who they are today.

I'd beg to differ. The point was whether Manu/Tony were replaceable. Well Speedy did in fact "replace" Tony, so to speak, in the finals. And Speedy was one of the sorrier PGs in the L. There were a dozen or more guards who could have played TP's role that year. Same goes for 2003 Manu.

[Warlord23]

what are you talking about? manu's one of the best defenders guards in the league and one of the best rebounding guards also. just look at the numbers 5 rebounds in 30 min per game. that's great for a guard

I'm just saying that a guy with 10 All-defensive team selections is a more important part of our defense than Manu. That doesn't mean Manu is bad at D. It means that the Spurs team D is good with or without Manu. Without Duncan our team D will be porous

[DAF86]

Is this not a forum for NBA junkies? Do people here not know that defense wins championships?

Bruce Bowen is more valuable than Manu. Bowen plays lock down D, and hits corner threes, that's what you need.

Any team can find a good scorer off the bench.


what are you talking about? manu's one of the best defensive guards on the league and one of the best rebounding guards also. just look at the stats 5 rebounds in 30 min per game. that's great for a guard

i'm used to see manu beign underated but not by spur fans

[Kori Ellis]

what are you talking about? manu's one of the best defenders guards in the league and one of the best rebounding guards also. just look at the numbers 5 rebounds in 30 min per game. that's great for a guard

Manu is awesome. But he's not one of the best defending guards in the league. He's probably not even the top half in one-on-one D.

[Kori Ellis]

And as to address the thread, Manu will never be considered by many as an MVP because of the fact that it's very difficult for him to play major minutes. He's freakin' incredible right now but his style of play doesn't allow him to play major minutes over the course of a season. He plays too hard and he'll get exhausted and ineffective.

That said, I wouldn't trade Manu right now for anyone. He's in an amazing zone - particularly when the Spurs really need him.

[doldrums]

And as to address the thread, Manu will never be considered by many as an MVP because of the fact that it's very difficult for him to play major minutes. He's freakin' incredible right now but his style of play doesn't allow him to play major minutes over the course of a season. He plays too hard and he'll get exhausted and ineffective.

That said, I wouldn't trade Manu right now for anyone. He's in an amazing zone - particularly when the Spurs really need him.


Not even for Mo Williams :dizzy :lol :lol :lol

[DAF86]

Manu is awesome. But he's not one of the best defending guards in the league. He's probably not even the top half in one-on-one D.

yes, yes he is. he's a good one-on-one defender but he's even better on team defense (rotation, boxing out,etc.)

[Kori Ellis]

yes, yes he is. he's a good one-on-one defender but he's even better on team defense (rotation, boxing out,etc.)

He's actually a bad one-on-one defender, which is why Pop has to hide him on D on the worst perimeter players. He's a very good help defender and see the passing lanes very well. But he's a bad one-on-one defender - most everyone knows that.

[Kori Ellis]

Anyway, I wasn't intending to trash Manu. He's playing incredible basketball right now. However, some people should realize that he does have some shortcomings - like every player does.

Offensively, he's incredibly efficient in his minutes - it's astounding.

However, Tim's presence both offensively and defensively allows the rest of the Spurs to do what they do. So, to me, Tim is still the MVP.

[DAF86]

He's actually a bad one-on-one defender, which is why Pop has to hide him on D on the worst perimeter players. He's a very good help defender and see the passing lanes very well. But he's a bad one-on-one defender - most everyone knows that.

a bad one-on-one defender can't create so many ofensive fouls. manu is great at that 'cause he's great moving laterally. that's a sign of a great one-on-one defender.
and the reason he's always on the worst perimeter player is because of a guy called bowen besides to rest him for the offense.
Jordan was a great defender but he was always covering the worst perimeter player of the oposition to get some rest for the offensive end.

[Kori Ellis]

a bad one-on-one defender can't create so many ofensive fouls. manu is great at that 'cause he's great moving laterally. that's a sign of a great one-on-one defender.
and the reason he's always on the worst perimeter is because of a guy called bowen besides to rest him for the offense.
Jordan was a great defender but he was always covering the worst perimeter player of the oposition to get some rest for the offensive end.

Don't get offended. Manu isn't perfect and no one expects him to be. He's extremely good and playing some of the best basketball of his career - which is great considering all his basketball mileage. But he isn't a good one-on-one defender and most people realize that. He is a very, very good help defender.

There's a reason why (for example) if the Spurs are playing the Pistons and Bowen is guarding Billups, then Tony guards Rip. And it's not just to save Manu's energy. Anyway, I'm not going to argue the point anymore. People can believe whatever they want.

Manu is playing HUGE right now and he's a freakin' warrior. Hopefully the Spurs can win out the season and start destroying teams in the playoffs.

[Gino]

Manu IS the Spurs' MVP in my opinion.

If I was going to take away ONE player from the Spurs, it would be Manu.

[jbspurs]

Definitely MVP of the year. MVP of the team? Duncan will always be the MVP of the team.

[DAF86]

Don't get offended. Manu isn't perfect and no one expects him to be. He's extremely good and playing some of the best basketball of his career - which is great considering all his basketball mileage. But he isn't a good one-on-one defender and most people realize that. He is a very, very good help defender.

There's a reason why (for example) if the Spurs are playing the Pistons and Bowen is guarding Billups, then Tony guards Rip. And it's not just to save Manu's energy. Anyway, I'm not going to argue the point anymore. People can believe whatever they want.

Man is playing HUGE right now and he's a freakin' warrior. Hopefully the Spurs can win out the season and start destroying teams in the playoffs.

of course there's a reason, billups can eat parker alive in the low post.
hey Kori do you have the 2005 championship DVD?
if you do please watch the 4th Qtr. against the pistons and count how many times does hubie brown say: "oh, great defense by manu ginobili"

[DarrinS]

For this season, yes.

There's no doubt that in order for the Spurs to be great, they need Tim Duncan as the foundation and backbone at both ends of the court. But, performance wise, Manu has done pretty much everything you can think of to carry the Spurs this season.


Agreed.

[DarrinS]

And as to address the thread, Manu will never be considered by many as an MVP because of the fact that it's very difficult for him to play major minutes. He's freakin' incredible right now but his style of play doesn't allow him to play major minutes over the course of a season. He plays too hard and he'll get exhausted and ineffective.

That said, I wouldn't trade Manu right now for anyone. He's in an amazing zone - particularly when the Spurs really need him.


Agree with this, too.

[Kori Ellis]

... count how many times does hubie brown say: "oh, great defense by manu ginobili"

:lol I don't need to rely on Hubie Brown. I'm around the Spurs enough to realize that Manu's not a good one-on-one defender. Like I said, he's a great help defender. Pop and Manu realize that too.

It's okay to admit your favorite players have weaknesses.

I'm going back to work.

[/steps out of worship thread]

[WalterBenitez]

This year, yes.

[DAF86]

:lol I don't need to rely on Hubie Brown. I'm around the Spurs enough to realize that Manu's not a good one-on-one defender. Like I said, he's a great help defender. Pop and Manu realize that too.

It's okay to admit your favorite players have weaknesses.

I'm going back to work.

[/steps out of worship thread]

i have been watching manu since he was 18 years old through all of his career and specialists all around the world've always said that manu is a great defender but i don't need nobody to tell me that either. i can realize by myself that he's a great defender.
And i'm not BS if you read all my posts in this thread you could tell (i even said that he's not the MVP). manu has shortcomings but defense is definitly not one of them.

[ducks]

i have been watching manu since he was 18 years old through all of his career and specialists all around the world've always said that manu is a great defender but i don't need nobody to tell me that either. i can realize by myself that he's a great defender.
And i'm not BS if you read all my posts in this thread you could tell (i even said that he's not the MVP). manu has shortcomings but defense is definitly not one of them.
then why does he not guard the best player on the other team

[DAF86]

:wtf

[DAF86]

then why does he not guard the best player on the other team

'cause we have bowen. that's a stupid question

[ducks]

I can not believe you posted a new thread about this

[ducks]

did anyone say he was a bad help defender and did not see the passing lanes well?

[DAF86]

I can not believe you posted a new thread about this

the other was 'bout who's the spurs MVP this season

[ducks]

'cause we have bowen. that's a stupid question
bowen does not play 48 minutes
when bowen is resting manu would guard the best player then

[jaffies]

I can not believe you posted a new thread about this

ducks FTW


:lol

[ducks]

which was covering this same subject

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I have to agree with ducks here

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

bowen does not play 48 minutes
when bowen is resting manu would guard the best player then

Does Kobe, who is a very good defender, guard the best opposition perimeter scorer? No, because it's a big risk with the way fouls are called in the NBA.

[DAF86]

bowen does not play 48 minutes
when bowen is resting manu would guard the best player then

'cause he needs to rest for the offensive end.
Jordan never guarded the opositon best player and you can't tell me that jordan is a bad defender

[ShoogarBear]

Church is in session.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

He's not a great one on one defender. Manu isn't going to shut down anybody.

He works well within the context of team defense.

[DAF86]

which was covering this same subject

yeah but i'm so pissed that i need an entire thread to let the anger go :lol

[ducks]

Does Kobe, who is a very good defender, guard the best opposition perimeter scorer? No, because it's a big risk with the way fouls are called in the NBA.
did anyone say kobe was a great one on one defender

[DAF86]

did anyone say kobe was a great one on one defender

he's been 1st defensive team many times. so yes

[2centsworth]

BS ... Tony and Manu were not even among the top 3 players in the Spurs' 2003 playoff run. Steven Jackson was the # 2, DRob/Bruce tied for # 3. Manu was a bench player playing less than 20 mins, Parker had several forgettable games. Duncan was the one who destroyed the Lakers, and then brought it home vs the Nets.
Before Tony, Manu and Bruce the spurs were getting rolled and that's a fact. Even with DRob, Tim and the other countless guards. Tony and Manu made the spurs more athletic and Bruce defended Kobe. Plain and simple.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Kobe is a very solid defender and you WILL see him guarding the best perimeter player on the opposing a lot more often than a majority of other NBA superstars, some of whom "hide" on defense.

Kobe is an all defensive NBA player for much more than just his reputation.

[T Park]

great cornerback back style defender allowed to roam

bad one on one defender.

He got burned pretty easily last night sometimes, but its ok, he made up for it.

[ducks]

he's been 1st defensive team many times. so yes
some of that is because he plays for big market la

[DAF86]

He's not a great one on one defender. Manu isn't going to shut down anybody.

he's not great but he's very good. and he isn't great because he doesn't need to. do you guys think that if bowen were as good as manu on the offensive end he'd apply so hard on the defensive end?

[ducks]

he's not great but he's very good. and he isn't great because he doesn't need to. do you guys think that if bowen were as good as manu on the offensive end he'd apply so hard on the defensive end?
he should or he should be benched
with spurs you do not play d you do not get the ball on the o side

[2centsworth]

:lol Pop and Manu realize that too.



[/steps out of worship thread]
please tell us when Pop and Manu told you Manu was a bad one on one defender.

[urunobili]

everybody forgets that before getting Udoka Manu was in charge of Bruce's rest... he won three rings doing that... UNREAL...

[ducks]

everybody forgets that before getting Udoka Manu was in charge of Brcue's rest... he won three rings doing that... UNREAL...
yeah manu won them all by himself :rolleyes

[ducks]

please tell us when Pop and Manu told you Manu was a bad one on one defender.
please tell me when pop told you the opposite

[ArgSpursFan.]

yeah manu won them all by himself :rolleyes

I hope people remember how Manu shuted down Prince in the 2005 NBA Finals.
Anyone knows what did Prince averaged vs the Spurs in 05?
I'm not sure 100% but it was way below his average stats for sure.

[timvp]

Is Manu the MVP of this team?

Depends on the criteria. If were talking about the Finals MVP style voting, I'd say Manu would have a good shot. He's been spectacular for most of the season. He has surpassed any regular season expectations anyone could have had for him coming into this year.

Now is he the most important player to the success of the team, I'd have to say no. TD is the player that has the most responsibilities on this team. Night in and night out, he has to carry more of the load than anyone else. Ginobili can decide not to rebound one game and no one would notice. Parker can decide not to push the break and the Spurs can still survive. But if Duncan doesn't score on the low block, make the right passes out of double teams, defend his man, defend other players driving to the lane, pull down rebounds, etc. ... then it's obvious that Duncan had a bad game and everyone can call him out as the Spurs likely lose.

Ginobili has played his role about as well as humanly possible but his role isn't as large as Duncan's role. Since Ginobili has few responsibilities on the defensive end of the court and no real set responsibilities offensively other than "be Manu", he's pretty free to freelance and be as good as he wants to be. Lately in games, he has yawned his way through the first three quarters and then turns it on at the end. While that works for him because of his role on the team, if Duncan was asleep at the wheel for a large stretch of a game he'd be roasted by every Spurs fan in existence.

I also don't buy the argument that the Spurs couldn't make the playoffs with Manu. The Spurs have struggled this year but it's largely because they are coming off of a championship and they already know they are good. If you took out Manu and replaced him with an average shooting guard and the rest of the team played hard all season, the Spurs would likely have an even better record than they do now. Believe me, if this Spurs team was playing as hard as possible during the regular season, they'd win 60+ games.

Would the Spurs make the playoff if you took Duncan away and gave the Spurs an average bigman? I doubt it, especially this season. Say you replace Duncan with someone like Chris Kaman. They'd have to play at 100% effort and chances are they'd still finish out of the playoffs.

Anyways, I don't really care about regular season play. Ginobili has had a great season so far but 2007-08 will be remembered for what happens in the playoffs. For example in '05-06, one could argue that Parker had a similarly successful season. He helped lead the Spurs to 63 wins even with Duncan hobbled with plantar fasciitis and Ginobili missing 20+ games. Parker shot 55% for the season and led the Spurs in scoring. But come playoff time, the Spurs got bounced by the Mavericks and the 05-06 season is looked upon as a huge failure.

For this to truly go down as a breakout year for Manu, the Spurs need to win the championship. With the way Manu's playing currently, he could easily have the best run of his playoff career. As long as he stays healthy, I see no reason why he can't explode in the playoffs and have a legendary run. He could then cement his superstar status in the league.

Bottomline for me is while Manu has had a fantastic season, TD is still the most important player in terms of the team's success. And besides, the true test begins in about three weeks.

[ShoogarBear]

But for some reason, there's always this runaway emotional attachment that limits objective discussion of him (not from you Manumanic, but others).

[DAF86]

:lol I'm around the Spurs enough to realize that Manu's not a good one-on-one defender. Pop and Manu realize that too.

i've actually heard pop in a lot of interviews saying that manu is a great defender that's why i'm so surprised that some spurs fans think that manu is a bad defender

[ducks]

great post timvp
that should be a blog topic

[timvp]

i have been watching manu since he was 18 years old through all of his career and specialists all around the world've always said that manu is a great defender but i don't need nobody to tell me that either. i can realize by myself that he's a great defender.
And i'm not BS if you read all my posts in this thread you could tell (i even said that he's not the MVP). manu has shortcomings but defense is definitly not one of them.:rolleyes

Even if you want to ignore today, Manu was such a bad defender in the year after the Spurs drafted him that they were ready to give up on him as a prospect. Even as late as 2001, the consensus was that Giricek was better because Ginobili was an atrocious defender at the time. Thankfully, Ginobili worked at that aspect of his game and his improvement defensively was the key for the Spurs to eventually pick him over Giricek. But to say he's been a great defender since he was 18 is laughable.

Today, Ginobili overall would be rated as a good defender. However, in one-on-one matchups, he's not that good. Help defensive wise, he's very good. The Spurs know this and set their defense to allow Ginobili's strengths on defense to shine.

But let's not pretend that Ginobili doesn't get the easiest possible matchups on a nightly basis. Bowen guards the best perimeter offensive player. Parker guards the second best perimeter offensive player. Whoever is left is who Ginobili guards. The one game this year that Ginobili began the contest guarding an All-Star caliber player, Paul Pierce went for like 15 points in the first five minutes of the game. And the only reason Ginobili was guarding Pierce was because Parker missed that game. Normally, Bowen would guard Pierce, Parker would guard Allen and Ginobili would guard whoever else the Celtics put on the perimeter.

If you want to think that Ginobili has been the Argentine Satch Sanders since the age of 18, I guess there isn't much to be done to convince you.

[DAF86]

:rolleyes

Even if you want to ignore today, Manu was such a bad defender in the year after the Spurs drafted him that they were ready to give up on him as a prospect. Even as late as 2001, the consensus was that Giricek was better because Ginobili was an atrocious defender at the time. Thankfully, Ginobili worked at that aspect of his game and his improvement defensively was the key for the Spurs to eventually pick him over Giricek. But to say he's been a great defender since he was 18 is laughable.

Today, Ginobili overall would be rated as a good defender. However, in one-on-one matchups, he's not that good. Help defensive wise, he's very good. The Spurs know this and set their defense to allow Ginobili's strengths on defense to shine.

But let's not pretend that Ginobili doesn't get the easiest possible matchups on a nightly basis. Bowen guards the best perimeter offensive player. Parker guards the second best perimeter offensive player. Whoever is left is who Ginobili guards. The one game this year that Ginobili began the contest guarding an All-Star caliber player, Paul Pierce went for like 15 points in the first five minutes of the game. And the only reason Ginobili was guarding Pierce was because Parker missed that game. Normally, Bowen would guard Pierce, Parker would guard Allen and Ginobili would guard whoever else the Celtics put on the perimeter.

If you want to think that Ginobili has been the Argentine Satch Sanders since the age of 18, I guess there isn't much to be done to convince you.

are you calling me a liar? all the argies that have watched manu's entire career please back me up on this one. and those who know how to post a link please i need the interview between pop and leo montero in the preseason of 2003-04 (the season after manu's rookie season) where pop tells leo that manu is a great defender. thankyou

[Deimosfobos]

I don't believe Manu has been the MVP. I do think, however, that this year BOTH Tim and Manu have been carrying this team. I'm not ready to say Manu is more valuable than Tim, but I don't feel too outraged at people suggesting it. Manu has certainly made a case for himself.



Come on Shoog... you know better than to say this? I mean, name another player that would bring what Manu brings, in the same amount of minutes, who wouldn't take a hit if he was required to come off the bench... just name one? By the way, given that we are talking about the NBA, and salary is an issue, you should also keep the list down to those in Manu's salary range. Same case scenario with Parker.



Have you even seen a game this season??



Tim Duncan is the best player on the Spurs and the foundation of its success, but I don't view him as the leader of the Spurs. First off, if anyone is the leader of the Spurs, it's Pop. If you were to name a player, it's Manu. That's part of his value, his leadership, his selflessness, his sacrifice, his attitude.

These quotes represent my personal opinion.

Also, anyone who says Ginobilli would be ez to remplace... can go jump off a window, since your brain already did.
:wtf

[timvp]

are you calling me a liar? all the argies that have watched manu's entire career please back me up on this one. and those who know how to post a link please i need the interview between pop and leo montero in the preseason of 2004 (the season after manu's rookie season) where pop tells leo that manu is a great defender. thankyouWas Ginobili 18 in 2004? I'm not calling you a liar but if you think Ginobili has been a great defender since he was 18 as you claimed, you are wrong.

[DAF86]

Was Ginobili 18 in 2004? I'm not calling you a liar but if you think Ginobili has been a great defender since he was 18 as you claimed, you are wrong.

did you watch ginobili at 18 years old?

[timvp]

did you watch ginobili at 18 years old?I've watched tapes of his younger days, yes. Did you figure out where Ginobili was playing when he was 18?

[hitmanyr2k]

The one game this year that Ginobili began the contest guarding an All-Star caliber player, Paul Pierce went for like 15 points in the first five minutes of the game. And the only reason Ginobili was guarding Pierce was because Parker missed that game. Normally, Bowen would guard Pierce, Parker would guard Allen and Ginobili would guard whoever else the Celtics put on the perimeter.

What's the point of saying Ginobili guarded Pierce? Pierce is a freakin small forward with a big body lol. Ginobili SHOULDN'T be able to guard Pierce...especially on the block. No guard can handle Pierce in the post...duh :lol Doesn't make him a bad defender.

And also what you say about Parker doesn't make sense. Parker sure as hell wouldn't be on Ray Allen even if Bowen were in that first game. He would have been on Rondo. What sense does it make to put Parker on Ray Allen? Who's going to guard Rondo? Finley?!?

[DAF86]

I've watched tapes of his younger days, yes. Did you figure out where Ginobili was playing when he was 18?

i know the agrie league isn't the NBA (even though we're still Olympic champions) but he was playing there then and he was always consider a great defender. in europe too

[timvp]

What's the point of saying Ginobili guarded Pierce? Pierce is a freakin small forward with a big body lol. Ginobili SHOULDN'T be able to guard Pierce...especially on the block. No guard can handle Pierce in the post...duh :lol Doesn't make him a bad defender. Pierce was scoring off jumpers.


And also what you say about Parker doesn't make sense. Parker sure as hell wouldn't be on Ray Allen even if Bowen were in that first game. He would have been on Rondo. What sense does it make to put Parker on Ray Allen? Who's going to guard Rondo? Finley?!?If the Spurs play the Celtics again and the Spurs have Parker, Ginobili and Bowen on the floor, Bowen will guard Pierce, Parker will guard Allen and Ginobili will guard Rondo/Cassell/House/Posey.

[BonnerDynasty]

Who gives a shit. He comes up with mega-clutch defensive plays in the important games.

Great asset on the defensive side no doubtttttt.

[timvp]

i know the agrie league isn't the NBA (even though we're still Olympic champions) but he was playing there then and he was always consider a great defender. in europe tooOkay, believe what you want. I'm not going to take an Argie to bat over Manu. Just know that even Manu himself admitted to improving his defense after the Spurs told him he couldn't play in the NBA if he didn't defend.

But yeah, Manu is the greatest with no perceivable weakness. :tu

[timvp]

ROFL. It has spilled over into this thread ...

[ArgSpursFan.]

Ginobili is a hustler,not the greatest one on one,but above average in that area.
And his BBIQ helps him read Offensive plays in order to get steals in the Difensive end.(court vision)

[JamStone]

I can't believe...

lg52V_bOIuY&feature=related

[DAF86]

Okay, believe what you want. I'm not going to take an Argie to bat over Manu. Just know that even Manu himself admitted to improving his defense after the Spurs told him he couldn't play in the NBA if he didn't defend.

But yeah, Manu is the greatest with no perceivable weakness. :tu

don't change my words that's very inmature of your part.
i never said manu is the best defender ever and i'm not BS towards manu (at least not on this subject :p: ) earlier in this post i even said that manu isn't the MVP of this team. but you can't tell me that manu is a bad defender.
i don't know how to post a link but please google "manu, defense and John hollinger or Mark Stein or Henry Abbott or any media guy you want and look what they say. or even better look what pop has said about manu's defense.

[hitmanyr2k]

Pierce was scoring off jumpers.

And? Isn't he supposed to hit jumpers? It just doesn't make sense that you would use Ginobili guarding a star SF as an example that he can't play good one on one defense.


If the Spurs play the Celtics again and the Spurs have Parker, Ginobili and Bowen on the floor, Bowen will guard Pierce, Parker will guard Allen and Ginobili will guard Rondo/Cassell/House/Posey.

So the same Rondo who roasted Tony Parker is supposed to be some easy assignment? :lol That doesn't make sense either. I'm pretty sure you'll see Ginobili on Ray Allen and Parker on Rondo. No way in hell they're going to put Ginobili on some speed demon.

[timvp]

but you can't tell me that manu is a bad defender.No one has told you that in this thread.

[E20]

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M+==+=+=+==I$$8D88DZ7??+==++?I7ZD8OZ$77+++====+M
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M=++===+==+?$II?77ZZOD88OO88O$$$$7I???7$+++=++=M
M+==++++++=+$I?I?I$$$$ZZZ$77I?I$7I????7Z$?+====M
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GlassGiant.com

[ArgSpursFan.]

is that walter Herrmann???:lmao
He looks just like Walter though

[DAF86]

I can't believe...

lg52V_bOIuY&feature=related

what's Oberto doing in that commercial?

[timvp]

And? Isn't he supposed to hit jumpers? It just doesn't make sense that you would use Ginobili guarding a star SF as an example that he can't play good one on one defense. I used that example because it was the one time this season Ginobili's main defensive assignment this season was an All-Star caliber swingman. Which players has he guarded well to prove to you that he's a good one-on-one defender?



So the same Rondo who roasted Tony Parker is supposed to be some easy assignment? :lol That doesn't make sense either. I'm pretty sure you'll see Ginobili on Ray Allen and Parker on Rondo. No way in hell they're going to put Ginobili on some speed demon.Ginobili never guards players who constantly go around screens. Name one such player he has guarded this season. Instead, Pop would rather put Ginobili on a point guard and let Parker run around the screens.

[K-State Spur]

great cornerback back style defender allowed to roam

bad one on one defender.

He got burned pretty easily last night sometimes, but its ok, he made up for it.

in the playoffs, i don't think he's 'bad.' adequate at best, but not bad. but in the regular season, he gambles too much and there are stretches where you can tell that he is resting on the defensive end of the floor.

[DAF86]

No one has told you that in this thread.


He's actually a bad one-on-one defender, which is why pop has to hide him on D on the worst perimeter players.

[timvp]

Read the next line.

[DAF86]

Read the next line.

i know but i do think that manu is a good one-on-one defender and that's what i'm arguing

[Deimosfobos]

Defence is not just 1 on 1...

Manu is a good defender (when he wants), but his 1 on 1 is probably the worst part of his game.

[Marhq]

What is the next thread going to be about? Asado vs barbecue? Araceli González vs Eva Longoria?

Saludos.

[Deimosfobos]

i know but i do think that manu is a good one-on-one defender and that's what i'm arguing

You were talking about his defence, you never mentioned his 1 on 1 in particular.

Having said that, I disagree with you, his 1 on 1 is subpar. He man is not perfect you know? He's good to excelent in everything else.

[smeagol]

he should or he should be benched
with spurs you do not play d you do not get the ball on the o side
Benching Manu in 4th Qs woud have a very positive result . . . :rolleyes

[DAF86]

You were talking about his defence, you never mentioned his 1 on 1 in particular.

Having said that, I disagre with you, his 1 on 1 is subpar. He man is not perfect you know? He's good to excelent in everything else.

when the F did i say manu's perfect?

[smeagol]

Manu puts them over the top in many games, but your MVP is the foundation that you build on, and that starts and ends with Tim. To me, Manu is 1A and Tony is 2.
MVP does not mean "foundation"

[smeagol]

For this season, yes.

There's no doubt that in order for the Spurs to be great, they need Tim Duncan as the foundation and backbone at both ends of the court. But, performance wise, Manu has done pretty much everything you can think of to carry the Spurs this season.
Agreed

[Deimosfobos]

when the F did i say manu's perfect?

Actually, you don't have to say it necesary , when you don't agree his only defect is not such...

[DAF86]

Actually, you don't have to say it necesary , when you don't agree his only defect is not such...

a lot of specialist (john hollinger, Mark Stein, Henry Abbott among others) think that manu is a great defender do you think that they think that manu's perfect?

[hitmanyr2k]

I used that example because it was the one time this season Ginobili's main defensive assignment this season was an All-Star caliber swingman. Which players has he guarded well to prove to you that he's a good one-on-one defender?

You used a swingman that just happened to be a SF that even big guys like Lebron have trouble guarding. It's a big-time size mismatch. Ginobili should not be able to guard him period. The Spurs switch so much on defense when is someone truly defending one guy anyway?



Ginobili never guards players who constantly go around screens. Name one such player he has guarded this season. Instead, Pop would rather put Ginobili on a point guard and let Parker run around the screens.

Strange, because I saw him on Rip Hamilton down the stretch in the Spurs' biggest game of 2005. Hell, this is the NBA. Every swingman uses screens/picks at one time or another.

[timvp]

You used a swingman that just happened to be a SF that even big guys like Lebron have trouble guarding. It's a big-time size mismatch. Ginobili should not be able to guard him period. The Spurs switch so much on defense when is someone truly defending one guy anyway? 1) You ignored my question.

2) Bowen truly defends one player on most nights.



Strange, because I saw him on Rip Hamilton down the stretch in the Spurs' biggest game of 2005.Didn't happen.

[DAF86]

Big Easy? Big Snub. by Henry Abbott

MANU GINOBILI

Manu Ginobili is a superstar. He just happens to play shorter minutes, have lowest scoring average, than the likes of Allen Iverson. Tony Parker was the MVP of the finals last year, but in the guts of crunch time, ginobili was the guy with the daggers AT BOTH ENDS OF THE FLOOR. There's really not anything he can't do -- he is an excellent 3pt shooter, he drives to the hole as splendidly as anyone, AND HE PLAYS KILLER D. if you were picking teams, all stars teams, pick-up teams, or whatever, i'll take Ginobili, you take Iverson, and we'll see who wins.

I don't know how to post the link

[Warlord23]

The Church of Manu is just too freaking sensitive. Nobody is criticizing Ginobili's abilities per se, only providing the Spurs' team context. A similar example is Derek Fisher. The Jazz announcers (and even some national announcers) say that the Jazz miss his defense, while Laker fans call for his head because of his poor D against other PGs. The thing is, Fisher's D was valuable in Utah because hardly anyone plays any consistent D there.

Similarly, Manu may or may not be a good 1-on-1 defender. It doesn't freaking matter. For the Spurs, what matters is that Bowen takes the best perimeter player and Udoka spells him; for all other perimeter players, Duncan protects the rim and the others are expected to funnel their men into the shotblocker but not give them the open 3. This philosophy is the reason why Phoenix shoots well from 3 against almost every team in the L, but shoots poorly beyond the arc when they play us. It is because of the Spurs' defensive philosophy. Manu needs to be adequate for it to succeed (which he is), but Duncan needs to be (and is) great for this to succeed.

Just because the scheme works, let us not overrate Manu's defensive ability. He is good, but wouldn't make an all-defensive team (an award voted for by NBA head coaches, not the bandwagoning media).

Bottomline, without Duncan we would be a poor defensive team. Without Manu we'd still be a great one

[sa_kid20]

If you ONLY look at this season then yeah Manu has been our MVP this year but Tim is still our Rock and Tim always turns it on come playoff time. There is still no question that neither one would have the rings they have without the other.

[diego]

as pop would say, get over yourselves. the only award that matters is champion, and that goes to the team.

[kuato]

I just cant beleave it :dramaquee , what the f*uck do you people need to see how allstar Manu is ¿?

[DAF86]

Big Easy? Big Snub. by Henry Abbott

MANU GINOBILI

Manu Ginobili is a superstar. He just happens to play shorter minutes, have lowest scoring average, than the likes of Allen Iverson. Tony Parker was the MVP of the finals last year, but in the guts of crunch time, ginobili was the guy with the daggers AT BOTH ENDS OF THE FLOOR. There's really not anything he can't do -- he is an excellent 3pt shooter, he drives to the hole as splendidly as anyone, AND HE PLAYS KILLER D. if you were picking teams, all stars teams, pick-up teams, or whatever, i'll take Ginobili, you take Iverson, and we'll see who wins.

I don't know how to post the link

[kuato]

He's not a great one on one defender. Manu isn't going to shut down anybody.

He works well within the context of team defense. -----> What the freack ???? , ask Kobe if Manu can defend.

[hitmanyr2k]

1)

Didn't happen.

Then you need glasses. He was on Rip and Tayshaun down the stretch of that game. And he covered Bowen's ass when he got beat off the dribble by Chauncey Billups. Damn shame when I have a better memory of that game than one of the biggest Spurs fan on this board. I still remember Hubie Brown commenting on Ginobili being up in Rip's jersey :lol

[anakha]

After some consideration, I've finally figured it out.

DAF86 IS aaronstampler!

Who else would make such impassioned defenses of Manu where none are warranted? :lol

[duncan228]

DAF86 IS aaronstampler!

:lol

[DAF86]

After some consideration, I've finally figured it out.

DAF86 IS aaronstampler!

Who else would make such impassioned defenses of Manu where none are warranted? :lol

:lol i feel flatter but no. i'm not him.
and i think AAronstampler is capable of posting a fricking link

[anakha]

In any case, this season wouldn't have been complete without at least one 'CoM vs the World' thread. :lol

[timvp]

Then you need glasses. He was on Rip and Tayshaun down the stretch of that game. And he covered Bowen's ass when he got beat off the dribble by Chauncey Billups. Damn shame when I have a better memory of that game than one of the biggest Spurs fan on this board. I still remember Hubie Brown commenting on Ginobili being up in Rip's jersey :lolYou never specified which game you are talking about but I'm sure Manu might have defended Rip for a couple plays in the year of 2005 ... seeing as the teams played nine times. But Manu was never specifically assigned to guard Rip ... especially down the stretch of the game.

[smeagol]

This season, TD has had some really bad games (when compared to what he can produce).

One has to simply read LJ's game thoughts to figure it out . . .

[DAF86]

BENCH MANU a fox sports article 24 dec 2005

...2) Defense: the spurs bench may have a lot of playoff experience and versatility, but what it lacks is a defensive-minded wing player since the departure of devin brown. The trio of Van exel, Finley and Barry can be an intimidating offensive force, but their defensive liabilities are just as likely to lose a lead than extended one. By bringing Manu off the bench, the spurs ensure that either he, or Bowen, are on the floor at all times, giving the spurs a DEFENSIVE presence on the perimeter for 48 minutes...

[DAF86]

BENCH MANU a fox sports article 24 dec 2005

...2) Defense: the spurs bench may have a lot of playoff experience and versatility, but what it lacks is a defensive-minded wing player since the departure of devin brown. The trio of Van exel, Finley and Barry can be an intimidating offensive force, but their defensive liabilities are just as likely to lose a lead than extended one. By bringing Manu off the bench, the spurs ensure that either he, or Bowen, are on the floor at all times, giving the spurs a DEFENSIVE presence on the perimeter for 48 minutes...

[ducks]

BENCH MANU a fox sports article 24 dec 2005

...2) Defense: the spurs bench may have a lot of playoff experience and versatility, but what it lacks is a defensive-minded wing player since the departure of devin brown. The trio of Van exel, Finley and Barry can be an intimidating offensive force, but their defensive liabilities are just as likely to lose a lead than extended one. By bringing Manu off the bench, the spurs ensure that either he, or Bowen, are on the floor at all times, giving the spurs a DEFENSIVE presence on the perimeter for 48 minutes...
link?

[Deimosfobos]

a lot of specialist (john hollinger, Mark Stein, Henry Abbott among others) think that manu is a great defender do you think that they think that manu's perfect?

I know my english is poor, but are you actually reading anything we are posting? I mean REALLY reading it?

Manu IS a good defender, just not a good 1 on 1 defender...

Regarding those people you mention, I would like links, since I seriously dout they said 1 on 1 defender, but defender in general.

[timaios]

BS ... Tony and Manu were not even among the top 3 players in the Spurs' 2003 playoff run. Steven Jackson was the # 2, DRob/Bruce tied for # 3. Manu was a bench player playing less than 20 mins, Parker had several forgettable games. Duncan was the one who destroyed the Lakers, and then brought it home vs the Nets.


I'd beg to differ. The point was whether Manu/Tony were replaceable. Well Speedy did in fact "replace" Tony, so to speak, in the finals. And Speedy was one of the sorrier PGs in the L. There were a dozen or more guards who could have played TP's role that year. Same goes for 2003 Manu.

2003 NBA Finals Statistics
http://www.nba.com/spurs/stats/2002/nba_finals_stats.html

Tim Duncan 43.8 min 24.2 pts 17.0 rbs 5.3 ast
Tony Parker 35.3 min 14.0 pts 3.2 rbs 4.2 ast
David Robinson 26.8 min 10.8 pts 7.3 rbs 0.7 ast
Stephen Jackson 35.5 min 10.3 pts 4.2 rbs 2.7 ast
Manu Ginobili 28.7 min 8.7 pts 4.5 rbs 2.0 ast
...
Speedy Claxton 12.5 min 6.2 pts 1.0 rbs 1.5 ast

[ducks]

Speedy Claxton 12.5 min 6.2 pts 1.0 rbs 1.5 ast
But speedy saved tp
LOL

[td4mvp21]

Just because Fox Sports said that doesn't make Ginobili a good perimeter defender. If you've watched him this year, you would realize that he isn't that great of one. He doesn't suck but he's not great. Kori knows a lot about the Spurs so I think you should listen to her :lol

[mavs>spurs2]

The Spurs are all about Tim Duncan, the best basketball player in NBA history. The rest of the team are role players.

Best player in NBA history??? For someone who goes by the name Galileo, you sure are a fucking dumbass.

[Warlord23]

2003 NBA Finals Statistics
http://www.nba.com/spurs/stats/2002/nba_finals_stats.html

Tim Duncan 43.8 min 24.2 pts 17.0 rbs 5.3 ast
Tony Parker 35.3 min 14.0 pts 3.2 rbs 4.2 ast
David Robinson 26.8 min 10.8 pts 7.3 rbs 0.7 ast
Stephen Jackson 35.5 min 10.3 pts 4.2 rbs 2.7 ast
Manu Ginobili 28.7 min 8.7 pts 4.5 rbs 2.0 ast
...
Speedy Claxton 12.5 min 6.2 pts 1.0 rbs 1.5 ast

Nice to see that you were reading the box scores instead of watching the games.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Best player in NBA history??? For someone who goes by the name Galileo, you sure are a fucking dumbass.
:lmao :tu

[anakha]

Nice to see that you were reading the box scores instead of watching the games.

Game 1:
http://www.nba.com/games/20030604/NJNSAS/boxscore.html

Game 2:
http://www.nba.com/games/20030606/NJNSAS/boxscore.html

Game 3:
http://www.nba.com/games/20030608/SASNJN/boxscore.html

Game 4:
http://www.nba.com/games/20030611/SASNJN/boxscore.html

Game 5:
http://www.nba.com/games/20030613/SASNJN/boxscore.html

Game 6:
http://www.nba.com/games/20030615/NJNSAS/boxscore.html

2 games out of 6? Yep, Parker was completely replaced that series. :rolleyes



Well Speedy did in fact "replace" Tony, so to speak, in the finals. And Speedy was one of the sorrier PGs in the L.


Nice to see that you were pulling opinions out of your ass instead of watching the games. :lol

[Warlord23]

The point is there were about 10 PGs in 2003 who could have replaced Parker, and the Spurs would still have won. There were about 10 SGs who could have replaced Manu, and the Spurs would still have won.

Also, you want me to use stats to prove my point?

The 2002-03 squad had exactly 1 player over 15 PPG: Tim Duncan.
It had only 1 player over 8 RPG: Tim Duncan.
It had only 1 player in the all-star team: Tim Duncan.
It had only 1 player shooting over .500: Tim Duncan.
It had nobody over 6 APG.

That team was all Duncan. He put the team on his shoulder and carried them home. Find me another champion in NBA history with that much disbalance in carrying the load. Michael had Scottie. Shaq had Kobe, Wade had Shaq. The Pistons had 5 good starters. Duncan was a solitary star.

Also, Tony choked on the big stage and had to be bailed out. He was a replaceable piece, as was Manu.

Bottomline, the 2003 championship team was all about Tim Duncan. That's what you call MVP.

[anakha]

The point is there were about 10 PGs in 2003 who could have replaced Parker, and the Spurs would still have won. There were about 10 SGs who could have replaced Manu, and the Spurs would still have won.

Also, you want me to use stats to prove my point?

The 2002-03 squad had exactly 1 player over 15 PPG: Tim Duncan.
It had only 1 player over 8 RPG: Tim Duncan.
It had only 1 player in the all-star team: Tim Duncan.
It had only 1 player shooting over .500: Tim Duncan.
It had nobody over 6 APG.

That team was all Duncan. He put the team on his shoulder and carried them home. Find me another champion in NBA history with that much disbalance in carrying the load. Michael had Scottie. Shaq had Kobe, Wade had Shaq. The Pistons had 5 good starters. Duncan was a solitary star.

Also, Tony choked on the big stage and had to be bailed out. He was a replaceable piece, as was Manu.

Bottomline, the 2003 championship team was all about Tim Duncan. That's what you call MVP.

Nice sidestep. :lol

I'm not contesting any of your points regarding Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili's relative value to the 2003 Spurs.

However, taking two games out of six and buying into the whole 'Claxton had to bail out Parker in the Finals' is still stupid beyond belief.

[timaios]

The point is there were about 10 PGs in 2003 who could have replaced Parker, and the Spurs would still have won.

Tony was just 21.
What did you expect from a 21 years PG ???
He was huge for his age, except game 6.

[Warlord23]

Nice sidestep. :lol

I'm not contesting any of your points regarding Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili's relative value to the 2003 Spurs.

However, taking two games out of six and buying into the whole 'Claxton had to bail out Parker in the Finals' is still stupid beyond belief.

OK, how about the fact that over the entire six games, Tim Duncan averaged more assists than Parker? Or the fact that Tony Parker shot a horrible 38.6% from the field? The Spurs won despite Parker's terrible outings. That series shouldn't have gone 6 games, just that Parker with 38.6%, SJax with 35.7% and Manu with 34.8% shooting decided to keep things interesting.

EDIT: Speedy shot 56.0% in that series, albeit in limited minutes.

[Warlord23]

Tony was just 21.
What did you expect from a 21 years PG ???
He was huge for his age, except game 6.

I understand that, and I don't blame Tony for it.

This whole argument started with the definition of MVP, and the fact that Duncan is the only irreplaceable player in the Spurs' offensive and defensive schemes.

[anakha]

OK, how about the fact that over the entire six games, Tim Duncan averaged more assists than Parker? Or the fact that Tony Parker shot a horrible 38.6% from the field? The Spurs won despite Parker's terrible outings. That series shouldn't have gone 6 games, just that Parker with 38.6%, SJax with 35.7% and Manu with 34.8% shooting decided to keep things interesting.

EDIT: Speedy shot 56.0% in that series, albeit in limited minutes.

Again, you're missing (or sidestepping) the point.

I am NOT contesting that Duncan was an absolute monster in the 2003 Finals.

I am NOT contesting that Parker, Ginobili, and Jackson had less of an impact on the series outcome than Duncan did.

What I AM contesting, however, is the view that Claxton had more of an impact on the outcome of the series than Parker did.

[Warlord23]

I understand what you're saying. I'm not saying Claxton > Parker. My original statement was that neither Manu nor Tony were among the 3 best players during that title run. That would be Duncan, Jax, DRob in that order.

I merely used Claxton as a data point to illustrate that:
a) We could win even when Parker wasn't playing well
b) Parker could have been replaced by any of 10 starting PGs in the league and we would still have won

[anakha]

I understand what you're saying. I'm not saying Claxton > Parker. My original statement was that neither Manu nor Tony were among the 3 best players during that title run.

Your original argument I have no problem with.


That would be Duncan, Jax, DRob in that order.

This one I'll contest. :lol

Looking at the performances from series to series in 2003, the argument can be made that Malik Rose was just as big a factor overall in the playoffs as Robinson.

The first round and conference finals stats favor Rose, while the second round and NBA Finals favor Robinson.

[BIG z]

Its Timmy's team, and if he wasn't there nothing would be possible...simple as that...its just that these media people dont realize what kind of a part Duncan plays on the floor when he's not even touching the ball, just ask the opposing team coaches, and what they tell their players, never leave an eye of Duncan.....So Manu being the MVP is nonsense, its Timmy's team and he is the MVP as long as he stays here...