Will the Price of Gas ever Drop?

[Soul_Patch]

I figured id ask those of you in here who have a grasp on how this F'd up market works.

Is there somewhere down the line where gas may fall back down below 3 bucks a gallon?

Im strongly considering selling the boat i just bought, becaus i cant afford to put 70 dollars gas in my truck to go to the coast, then anotehr 200 in the boat to use it for 1 day.


crazy stuff.

[E20]

What is the price in Texas? It's basically 4 a gallon here.

[Soul_Patch]

3.20 is pretty average in San Antonio.


Which i know is probably the lowest in the country, which is pretty fuckin sad, considering that is just absurd.



I agree gas shouldnt be 98 cents a gallon, like back in 1998 1999, but over 3 dollars is just a bit out of whack. That eats such a huge portion of people's budget, you can only imagine why we are in a slumping economy.

It doesnt make sense, especially when you hear exxon, bp, etc are making billions and billions of dollars every quarter in profit alone.

[fyatuk]

Not likely. We need more refining capability in addition to stability in oil producing regions, for the price to drop more than seasonal changes. I suppose if world peace and stability pops up, it might go back down to $2.50 or so, but I wouldn't count on that (since it's never happened).

[Soul_Patch]

Not likely. We need more refining capability in addition to stability in oil producing regions, for the price to drop more than seasonal changes. I suppose if world peace and stability pops up, it might go back down to $2.50 or so, but I wouldn't count on that (since it's never happened).


So depressing


Hopefully someone soon will work on making electric or hybrid outboard motor's, and somewhere down the line i can think about a boat again.

[RandomGuy]

Highly unlikely.

The reasons would take a loooong post to spell out, and fyatuk outlined part of it.

There is SOME room for prices to come down in the short-term, but beyond a year or two, you will likely see fuel prices increase at rates much higher than overall inflation for the rest of your life.

Remember that for every barrel of oil, we are now in a bidding war with the two billion people in China and India, whose economies are growing about 2-4 times that of the US in most years. Every day it is estimated (news account I read somewhere) that tens of thousands of NEW drivers are being added to the roads in China that never owned cars before. They use the same fuel for their vehicles that we do here, and there are a LOT of them.

You would be better off getting rid of the boat and putting that payment in for your retirement anyways.

[Heath Ledger]

The answer is no, sell your boat but good luck with that, Boats are much worse off as investments than cars.

[xrayzebra]

Don't give up hope. Read the following article. Now if
Congress would get off their tail and allow the oil companies to
drill off the coast of our Country we could tell the Middle East to
go suck a lemon. We might just be back into the oil export
business again. And think what it would do for our balance of
payments. Some on this board worry so much about that
balance of payment thing.

Bakken Oil Formation Holds Billions of Barrels in N.D.

Atlanta, GA 4/02/2008 11:00 PM GMT (FINDITT)



The Bakken Formation in North Dakota could boost America’s oil reserves by an incredible 10 times, according to a report Wednesday.

The Bakken Oil Formation, which covers North Dakota and portions of Montana and South Dakota, is believed to have 175 to 500 billion barrels of recoverable oil. The 200,000 square mile reserve that was initially discovered in 1951.

In 2007, EOG Resources of Texas drilled a single well in Parshal N.D. that is expected to have yielded 700,000 barrels of oil. Marathon Oil is investing $1.5 billion and drilling 300 new wells.

In the next 30 days, the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) will release a new report giving an accurate assessment of the Bakken Oil Formation.

The United States imported about 14 million barrels of oil per day in 2007, which meant U.S. consumers have spent $340 billion dollars in exported oil.

As of Wednesday, the crude oil price is at $104.83 per barrel.

For more Scientific News, please go to http://www.transworldnews.com/NewsList.aspx?cat=12&wcat=4The Story (http://www.transworldnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?id=42081&cat=1)

[Soul_Patch]

The answer is no, sell your boat but good luck with that, Boats are much worse off as investments than cars.



Quite opposite actually, boats hold their value exponentially longer than cars. I bought mine used for about 4k under value...so i think i stand to make at least my money back, if it sells at all.

[Heath Ledger]

People don't understand we will never drill and tap into our own oil. Uncle Sam wants to ensure we drain everyone elses supply, so that if shit hits the fan we have some for our own MILITARY. Our oil supply is only going to be used for emergency situations.
This has been a longstanding policy that will never change. Why should we tap into it? The oil tycoons are getting rich off of other peoples oil, no need to do it in our own backyard.

[Heath Ledger]

Wait til you put it up for sale, my cousin thought the same thing when he spent $60k on a boat 3 ($10k under valued)years ago and now can't get $40k for it, and there is nothing wrong with it, other than it sucks him dry for $350 per monh in storage fees.

[RandomGuy]

In the next 30 days, the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) will release a new report giving an accurate assessment of the Bakken Oil Formation.

Until then we won't have much to base any calculations on other than WAGs.

[RandomGuy]

The Bakken Formation in North Dakota could boost America’s oil reserves by an incredible 10 times, according to a report Wednesday.

The Bakken Oil Formation, which covers North Dakota and portions of Montana and South Dakota, is believed to have 175 to 500 billion barrels of recoverable oil. The 200,000 square mile reserve that was initially discovered in 1951.


New curiosity developed in 2007 when EOG Resources out of Houston, Texas reported that a single well it had drilled into an oil-rich layer of shale below Parshall, North Dakota is anticipated to produce 700,000 barrels (111,000 m³) of oil. Estimates for ultimate oil contained in the entire Bakken play range from 271 billion to 503 billion barrels (40–80 km³), with a mean of 413 billion barrels (65 km³) of technically recoverable and irrecoverable oil.[6]

This massive estimate appears to dwarf the estimated 50–70 billion barrels (8–11 km³) of technically recoverable and irrecoverable oil in Alaska's North Slope. A conservative estimate of Bakken's technically recoverable oil would be 1% to 3%, or between 4.1 and 12.4 billion barrels (0.6–2 km³) of oil, due to the fact that Bakken's shale is so tight. However, other estimates range from 10% to as high as 50% technically recoverable reserves.[7] By comparison, recoverable oil estimates in the Alaska formation are 30% to 50%, or a mean of 26 billion barrels (4 km³).

The US imports 5 billion barrels of oil every year, a number that increases with time at a rate that exceeds economic growth.

12.4/5.1= a bit over 2 years supply, if the entire thing was tapped right away, not considering development.

Now all we have to do is find one of these miracle new fields every 2 years.

[boutons_]

Very hard to predict, but we need to act like it never will, and that it will be $5 or more in a couple years.

But ... we won't.

[Soul_Patch]

Maybe i should invest in some bad ass paddles for my boat.

[fyatuk]

Maybe i should invest in some bad ass paddles for my boat.

All you need is a stationary bike and a good chain and you could rig something up with a stripped down outboard :p:

[CavsSuperFan]

What ever happened to our blood for oil program?

[RandomGuy]

Maybe i should invest in some bad ass paddles for my boat.

I am all about getting a bunch of people who want a free weight loss program of exercise and fresh salt sea air together for one of these babies:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Trireme_1.jpg/755px-Trireme_1.jpg

[inconvertible]

Not likely. We need more refining capability in addition to stability in oil producing regions, for the price to drop more than seasonal changes. I suppose if world peace and stability pops up, it might go back down to $2.50 or so, but I wouldn't count on that (since it's never happened).


you are stupid.

Big oil is squeezing the supply line at will, to make $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ don't you idiotic people get it.

[RandomGuy]

you are stupid.

Big oil is squeezing the supply line at will, to make $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ don't you idiotic people get it.


Meh. You forget who owns Big Oil.

More probably, you never knew in the first place. Big Oil companies making profit is actually good for more people than you might think...

[RandomGuy]

Statistics for Exxon Mobil (http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=XOM)(click on link to see origin of data):

Average Volume (3 month)3: 27,892,800
Average Volume (10 day)3: 24,444,400
Shares Outstanding5: 5.35B
Float: 5.35B
% Held by Insiders1: 0.09%
% Held by Institutions1: 52.80%


Institutions.

Translation:
Pension funds.

Yes indeed, the primary beneficiaries of high oil prices are: people saving for retirement.

Sorry to burst anyone's bubble.

If you like, I can pull up data from other oil companies.

Most stock in the US is owned by mutual funds who, in turn, are owned by large and small pension funds, 401ks and so forth.

[RandomGuy]

Conoco Phillips:

Share Statistics
Average Volume (3 month)3: 13,688,500
Average Volume (10 day)3: 10,644,200
Shares Outstanding5: 1.56B
Float: 1.56B
% Held by Insiders1: 0.09%
% Held by Institutions1: 78.30%

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=COP

[RandomGuy]

Chevron:
Share Statistics
Average Volume (3 month)3: 13,072,600
Average Volume (10 day)3: 10,245,200
Shares Outstanding5: 2.08B
Float: 2.08B
% Held by Insiders1: 0.02%
% Held by Institutions1: 65.90%

[RandomGuy]

Valero:
Share Statistics
Average Volume (3 month)3: 10,264,700
Average Volume (10 day)3: 10,975,000
Shares Outstanding5: 534.65M
Float: 533.03M
% Held by Insiders1: 0.30%
% Held by Institutions1: 80.20%

[fyatuk]

you are stupid.

Big oil is squeezing the supply line at will, to make $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ don't you idiotic people get it.

Uhhh....

Call me stupid, and then go off on a tangent completely unrelated to what I said... Yeah, smart.....

[xrayzebra]

you are stupid.

Big oil is squeezing the supply line at will, to make $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ don't you idiotic people get it.

You remind me of that dumbA-- Congressman who told
the oil companies that needed to invest more into alternative
fuels. (And put themselves out of business, like HEB needs
to invest more in Albertson's)

Oil companies made a return of I think it was 8.6 percent
in the last few years. Not much when you consider how
much they have invested to supply you and I with the
fuel to drive our butts around.

[Wild Cobra]

You remind me of that dumbA-- Congressman who told
the oil companies that needed to invest more into alternative
fuels. (And put themselves out of business, like HEB needs
to invest more in Albertson's)

Oil companies made a return of I think it was 8.6 percent
in the last few years. Not much when you consider how
much they have invested to supply you and I with the
fuel to drive our butts around.
Yep. A whopping 8.6%.

How many people really think the oil companies can reduce their profit and save you a noticable amount at the pump?

[RandomGuy]

You remind me of that dumbA-- Congressman who told
the oil companies that needed to invest more into alternative
fuels. (And put themselves out of business, like HEB needs
to invest more in Albertson's)

Oil companies made a return of I think it was 8.6 percent
in the last few years. Not much when you consider how
much they have invested to supply you and I with the
fuel to drive our butts around.


This is the problem with true "conservative" thinking. It misses the boat when it comes to change.

Oil companies themselves will tell you, if you read their annual shareholder reports, that they are increasingly seeing themselves as energy companies first and oil companies second. They know the clock is ticking on oil, and are setting up some R & D efforts towards all sorts of things that might surprise you.

[boutons_]

"as energy companies first and oil companies second"

As in "BP = Beyond Petroleum", as BP tears up Alberta for oil sands.

It'll be decades before the oilcos are anything but oilcos, if ever.

Don't believe the PR, don't believe the BS at the stockholders meetings.

Surprised at oilco R&D?
Tell us how much they spend of extraction/refining R&D vs non-oil R&D.
And how much of oilco R&D is financed by our $15B research subsidy from dickhead?
Take away that subsidy, and see how much the oilcos spend on non-oil R&D.

The oilcos have financed 40 orgs to fight the global warming crowd.

Refining takes about 22% of the retail price of gasoline. As the crude goes up, does anyone think the refiners will cut their share at the refinery gates?

[101A]

Don't give up hope. Read the following article. Now if
Congress would get off their tail and allow the oil companies to
drill off the coast of our Country we could tell the Middle East to
go suck a lemon. We might just be back into the oil export
business again. And think what it would do for our balance of
payments. Some on this board worry so much about that
balance of payment thing.

Bakken Oil Formation Holds Billions of Barrels in N.D.

Atlanta, GA 4/02/2008 11:00 PM GMT (FINDITT)



The Bakken Formation in North Dakota could boost America’s oil reserves by an incredible 10 times, according to a report Wednesday.

The Bakken Oil Formation, which covers North Dakota and portions of Montana and South Dakota, is believed to have 175 to 500 billion barrels of recoverable oil. The 200,000 square mile reserve that was initially discovered in 1951.

In 2007, EOG Resources of Texas drilled a single well in Parshal N.D. that is expected to have yielded 700,000 barrels of oil. Marathon Oil is investing $1.5 billion and drilling 300 new wells.

In the next 30 days, the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) will release a new report giving an accurate assessment of the Bakken Oil Formation.

The United States imported about 14 million barrels of oil per day in 2007, which meant U.S. consumers have spent $340 billion dollars in exported oil.

As of Wednesday, the crude oil price is at $104.83 per barrel.

For more Scientific News, please go to http://www.transworldnews.com/NewsList.aspx?cat=12&wcat=4The Story (http://www.transworldnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?id=42081&cat=1)It doesn't matter where it comes from; the price of oil is the price of oil. US producers won't sell it here for less; they'll take top dollar, just like OPEC; Not that freeing ourselves somewhat from trauma in the ME wouldn't be a good thing....a panacea of cheap oil, it wouldn't be, however.

A cheaper, or competitive, viable alternative is what will drive the price of oil down.

[RandomGuy]

"as energy companies first and oil companies second"

As in "BP = Beyond Petroleum", as BP tears up Alberta for oil sands.

It'll be decades before the oilcos are anything but oilcos, if ever.

Don't believe the PR, don't believe the BS at the stockholders meetings.

Surprised at oilco R&D?
Tell us how much they spend of extraction/refining R&D vs non-oil R&D.
And how much of oilco R&D is financed by our $15B research subsidy from dickhead?
Take away that subsidy, and see how much the oilcos spend on non-oil R&D.

The oilcos have financed 40 orgs to fight the global warming crowd.

Refining takes about 22% of the retail price of gasoline. As the crude goes up, does anyone think the refiners will cut their share at the refinery gates?

Meh.

The concept of getting energy from "oil sands" is uneconomical no matter what the price of oil is for a variety of reasons. If BP chooses to waste resoucres on it, that is their concern.

[boutons_]

driving demand for oil in the US down is in the best interest of the US, but it's totally destructive of the oilco interests.

Whose interests do you think are gonna (to continue to) be satisfied?

[boutons_]

The Alberta oil sands are currently, actively, aggressively being developed. BP is still British Petroleum

[BacktoBasics]

I live in Corpus. Park the boat at my Father in laws and that'd save a ton in gas by not having to tow it from SA. I'll keep it clean and maintained and locked behind a gate accessible to you 24-7. All I'd want in return is the ability to take it out a few times a month. I'll even carry insurance on it so you won't have to worry about me damaging it. I bet towing cuts your mpg in half. Shit you can even use my truck to drop in the bay when you come down, my truck is a third vehicle anyhow. That way you can drive an economical car down to Corpus.

[xrayzebra]

driving demand for oil in the US down is in the best interest of the US, but it's totally destructive of the oilco interests.

Whose interests do you think are gonna (to continue to) be satisfied?

boutons, oil is what made this nation and will continue to
sustain it for your and my lifetime. It is the energy of the
past, present and future.

[RandomGuy]

The Alberta oil sands are currently, actively, aggressively being developed. BP is still British Petroleum

energy return on energy invested[EROEI] (http://www.abelard.org/briefings/energy-economics.asp#eroei)

Here follow some approximate EROEIs [5] for different energy sources:

Middle East oil 30+ remember fossil fuel quality varies
Tar sands 1.5
Hydro power 45
Coal 25 according to accessibility suspect figure
Nuclear 5 – 20 according to assumptions suspect figure
Wind 4 – 10
Solar 5
Corn methanol negative therefore, subsidised by the crazy US government!


5. EROEIs vary greatly according to assumptions. For instance, oil sands would probably come out much worse if site preparation and restoration (if even possible) and externalised pollution by end users were factored in. Similar remarks probably relate to other figures but this gives an idea.


Sorry dude, the only reason anybody is sinking money into tar sands is because of good salesmanship on the part of people who have an economic interest in it.

Eventually, BP, like any other source of capital will realize there is no money to be made.

The energy return on wind and solar will come down with time and new technology, so the EROEI will go up.

You can essentially equate EROEI with a monetary return on an investment.

Boutons, you always say that corporations will go where they can make money, and I agree.

Tar sands will not make anybody any money for the reasons above. As much as you might dislike the capitalist system, it still functions this way, for good or ill.

[Soul_Patch]

I live in Corpus. Park the boat at my Father in laws and that'd save a ton in gas by not having to tow it from SA. I'll keep it clean and maintained and locked behind a gate accessible to you 24-7. All I'd want in return is the ability to take it out a few times a month. I'll even carry insurance on it so you won't have to worry about me damaging it. I bet towing cuts your mpg in half. Shit you can even use my truck to drop in the bay when you come down, my truck is a third vehicle anyhow. That way you can drive an economical car down to Corpus.


I actually have a place to keep it in Rockport, i rarely bring it back into SA but i wouldnt be opposed to splitting some gas cost with you every now and again if you want to make a run at some reds and/or trout on the weekends. Im getting awful familiar with Aransas / Mesquite and St Charles Bay's.

That 200hp 2 stroke Yamaha can eat a lot of dollar bills....

[RandomGuy]

I live in Corpus. Park the boat at my Father in laws and that'd save a ton in gas by not having to tow it from SA. I'll keep it clean and maintained and locked behind a gate accessible to you 24-7. All I'd want in return is the ability to take it out a few times a month. I'll even carry insurance on it so you won't have to worry about me damaging it. I bet towing cuts your mpg in half. Shit you can even use my truck to drop in the bay when you come down, my truck is a third vehicle anyhow. That way you can drive an economical car down to Corpus.

This makes a huge amount of sense.

Oddly enough this kind of sharing scheme is already done in some parts of Europe and some American cities with cars.

[BacktoBasics]

I actually have a place to keep it in Rockport, i rarely bring it back into SA but i wouldnt be opposed to splitting some gas cost with you every now and again if you want to make a run at some reds and/or trout on the weekends. Im getting awful familiar with Aransas / Mesquite and St Charles Bay's.

That 200hp 2 stroke Yamaha can eat a lot of dollar bills....Hit me up with any ideas and I'm open to whatever you're down for.

[boutons_]

Note the country names at the top, then scroll down to the bottom:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/gas1.html

and another, graphically, out of date but shows taxes:

http://www.urban.org/publications/1000845.html

so, quit your bitchin. The higher the gas price, due either to oil or taxes, the more alternatives look attractive.

US should raise federal taxes on fuel to discourage waste and keep those $Bs here in the USA instead of finanching Putin, Chavez, Iran, and theme parks, artificial islands, snow skiing, and 10-star hotels in the Gulf.

[xrayzebra]

Okay, watch the video. You can take it at what it worth.
I don't know if the guy really has something or running
a con job. But if he is on to something, he is going to
fabulously wealthy and those with water rights are going to
get richer.



Water for Fuel (http://s191.photobucket.com/albums/z273/xrayzebra/?action=view&current=WaterFuel.flv)

[xrayzebra]

--bump------

[xrayzebra]

--bump------
...

[xrayzebra]

Congress in Action:http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z273/xrayzebra/OilCrisis.gif

[whottt]

Sure...when the Democrats stop putting shitty out of Iraq candidates up...then we can get big Oil out of the whitehouse...

However until that time happens...it's going to continue.


You can always buy a car that gets better gas mileage...or a bicycle....and stop waiting/relying on the government to fix things...that's stupid.

[boutons_]

a "shitty out-of-Iraq" Dem is going to win, while shitty militaristic, same-old dubya/neo-cunt-oil McCain is going to lose.

[shelshor]

....and stop waiting/relying on the government to fix things...that's stupid.
Government..Fix Things???

My grandfather always said something to the effect of: "If you think you have a problem now, just wait until the government fixes it for you"

I have yet to see anything to contradict that view

[xrayzebra]

Government..Fix Things???

My grandfather always said something to the effect of: "If you think you have a problem now, just wait until the government fixes it for you"

I have yet to see anything to contradict that view

Boy was your Grandfather ever right.
:toast

[boutons_]

As we barely BEGIN a deep crisis created exclusively by unregulated capitalists (as they have done many times in the past as they enrich themselves and fuck over everybody else.), does anybody believe the capitalists and a "free market" are going to solve anything now, especially in the completely leaderless USA? That the guility one will now solve the problems they created?

Bailing out Beear Stearns was a mistake. A free market would have let BS disappear. BS was bankrupt. Declare bankruptcy and disappear forever, greedy bastards.

Everybody private/commercial "freely" refused to lend BS anything to cover their liquidity/bank-run crisis.

Some simple regulation of private banks, and some simple regulations on home lending, eg show 2 years bank statements, 2 years cc statements, 2 years IRS records, rather than "stated income" would have completely prevented the disaster of the dubya's "stakeholder/owernship society" of people who could not really afford, as we see know, to be owners.

[whottt]

a "shitty out-of-Iraq" Dem is going to win, while shitty militaristic, same-old dubya/neo-cunt-oil McCain is going to lose.


Sure...just like in 04.

[boutons_]

People were still scared in 04,

still will to give dubya the benefit of the doubt, :lol

Iraq was still fairly new and misunderstood, was not understood then as an open-ended occupation,

the historic shittiness of dubya's and dickhead's reign of corruption and willful incompetence was not so evident,

the economy was not shrinking.

Still, dubya won '04 with the smallest margin of any incumbent president. Hardly more of an endorsement than losing the popular vote in '00 by 600K.

Whott backed and is still backing a loser, and a lost "war".

The best working assumption is that the price of oil will never go down signficicantly. Airlines and truckers better adjust. Dramatic conservation and swtiching to non-carbon transport fuel is the only realistic direction.

The entire corn ethanol industry, in USA and Europe, needs to be cancelled immediately.

[manufor3]

the answer is sadly no

[Wild Cobra]

Government..Fix Things???

My grandfather always said something to the effect of: "If you think you have a problem now, just wait until the government fixes it for you"

I have yet to see anything to contradict that view
Well, you think Health Care is expensive now, just wait till it's free!

---- Ooooops...

Wromg thread.

[whottt]

People were still scared in 04,

still will to give dubya the benefit of the doubt, :lol

THey didn't like W then...he did lose the popular vote in 00 after all...

They voted for him because the Democratic Response to W's shitty Presidency was to become even shittier.





Iraq was still fairly new and misunderstood, was not understood then as an open-ended occupation,

False....no one particularly cared about that then, no particularly cares about that now...except for the same people. And they voted against Bush then.




the historic shittiness of dubya's and dickhead's reign of corruption and willful incompetence was not so evident,

It was evident in 2000.



the economy was not shrinking.

Accoriding to the Democrats at that time, it was.




Still, dubya won '04 with the smallest margin of any incumbent president. Hardly more of an endorsement than losing the popular vote in '00 by 600K.


Idiot...he was the first President in history elected without winning the popular vote, to be re-elected.


You guys just managed to find a shittier candidate...a gigantic pussy whose platform was based on kissing the corrupt asses of the UN, France and Germany...French and German leaders, and parties, no longer in power I might add.


A guy whose biggest claim to fame was treason and losing a war...


You know how fucking sweet it was that American deemed him unworthy to be the President, largely on the basis of his Vietnam Era political activity...

It was fucking sweet watching that political opportunists/whore entire lifelong dream get fucking flushed down the toilet.

It was so fucking sweet...



Whott backed and is still backing a loser, and a lost "war".

Sure....just be sure to show up on election night and claim the Republicans rigged the election again...AGAIN.





The best working assumption is that the price of oil will never go down signficicantly.

Sure it will, someday, adjusted for inflation of course...are you really so shortsighted?





Airlines and truckers better adjust. Dramatic conservation and swtiching to non-carbon transport fuel is the only realistic direction.

The entire corn ethanol industry, in USA and Europe, needs to be cancelled immediately.


boutons...you're a fucking leftist shill, completely hardwired into a set of beliefs, some of which may be accurate, but all of which, are most definitely not accurate...

I have zero respect for anyone whose beliefs lie extremely shifted to one spectrum or the other...

You are not the voice of this country, you never have been, you never will be, what you are is someone who represents an end of an extremist political belief spectrum...and nothing else.

No an objective voice.
Not a credible voice.
Not an accurate voice.


You know...you don't even need type words into your posts in this forum...we already know what you're going to say about anything, what your view will be, just based on who is saying the words you are responding too....hell, we know what your response will be, before they even say them.

[Wild Cobra]

Yes, when will gas prices drop? What ever happened to Nancy Pelosi's plan? She said she would bring down prices two years ago, right? They only increased since the democrats took power:

House GOP challenges Pelosi for gas price plan (http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/house-gop-challenges-pelosi-for-gas-price-plan-2008-04-22.html):


House Republican leaders on Tuesday challenged Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) to release a plan to lower gas prices that they say Democrats touted when they were in the minority.

“Two years ago this week, you stated that House Democrats had a ‘commonsense plan’ to ‘lower gas prices,’ ” the letter said. “In light of the skyrocketing gasoline prices affecting working families and every sector of our struggling economy, we are writing today to respectfully request that you reveal this ‘commonsense plan’ so we can begin work on responsible solutions to help ease this strain.”

The letter is signed by Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio), Minority Whip Roy Blunt (R-Mo.), Conference Chairman Adam Putnam (R-Fla.), Policy Chairman Thaddeus McCotter (R-Mich.) as well as other members of leadership: Reps. Kay Granger (R-Texas), John Carter (R-Texas), Tom Cole (R-Okla.) and Eric Cantor (R-Va.).

In a press release dated April 24, 2006, Pelosi said, “Democrats have a commonsense plan to help bring down skyrocketing gas prices by cracking down on price gouging, rolling back the billions of dollars in taxpayer subsidies, tax breaks and royalty relief given to big oil and gas companies, and increasing production of alternative fuels.” The letter cited policies put in place during the GOP control of Congress that the Speaker claimed had raised prices on American consumers to benefit oil companies.

The House GOP leaders’ letter points out that the price of gasoline has spiked $1.18 since Democrats took over in January and stands at $3.51.

“Once a nightmare scenario, $4 gasoline is now a very real possibility of becoming a summer staple,” the letter stated. “In some cities, including San Francisco and Chicago, it is already a startling reality.”

Pelosi’s office did not respond immediately for comment.

The political drumbeat against high gas prices in the House coincidences with that of Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), who has made the issue a key campaign talking point.

McCain has called for a suspension of the gas tax to help consumers get through the summer months.

The McCain campaign and congressional Republicans have met repeatedly in recent weeks in an effort to coordinate their messages.

[xrayzebra]

But, but, but The dimm-o-craps have a plan. They have increased
the MPG on car manufactures and they have "invested" in
renewable energy. My Congressman told me so. Pelosi told me so.
It is all Bush's fault, don't you know. He is in cohots with the oil
companies. Like you know they don't take money from the Companies, just the individuals who work for them. Oh, I forgot,
"renewable, CLEAN energy". Sorry about that!

[smeagol]

boutons...you're a fucking leftist shill, completely hardwired into a set of beliefs, some of which may be accurate, but all of which, are most definitely not accurate...

I have zero respect for anyone whose beliefs lie extremely shifted to one spectrum or the other...

You are not the voice of this country, you never have been, you never will be, what you are is someone who represents an end of an extremist political belief spectrum...and nothing else.

No an objective voice.
Not a credible voice.
Not an accurate voice.


You know...you don't even need type words into your posts in this forum...we already know what you're going to say about anything, what your view will be, just based on who is saying the words you are responding too....hell, we know what your response will be, before they even say them.

That is the most accurate description of boutons I have ever read.

[Don Quixote]

The entire corn ethanol industry, in USA and Europe, needs to be cancelled immediately.

He's correct here, at least! The corn ethanol scam needs to be ended immediately. It's of dubious (at best) environmental value, drives up the cost of food, and hasn't lowered the price of fuel at all.

[Wild Cobra]

He's correct here, at least! The corn ethanol scam needs to be ended immediately. It's of dubious (at best) environmental value, drives up the cost of food, and hasn't lowered the price of fuel at all.

Ditto...

Every now and then, anybody is right. Even Boutons! Even a broken clock is right trice a day!

[RandomGuy]

Okay, watch the video. You can take it at what it worth.
I don't know if the guy really has something or running
a con job. But if he is on to something, he is going to
fabulously wealthy and those with water rights are going to
get richer.



Water for Fuel (http://s191.photobucket.com/albums/z273/xrayzebra/?action=view&current=WaterFuel.flv)

It is worth exactly: bupkiss. I watched the video and did some digging, pretty much knowing what I would find.

There have been "water" cars for decades.

Here is how water cars work:

Seperate water into hydrogen and oxygen, then go and burn the hydrogen and oxygen for energy, and all you get is clean water as an end result.

Unfortunately, you can't cheat the laws of thermodynamics.

How do you split water into hydrogen and oxygen? Electricity.

It is a simple law of thermodynamics that you can't get more energy out of a chemical reaction than you put into it.

Period.

I did some checking and this guy puts about 5kw worth of energy into something and gets 1.6kw energy out of it.


OP has little to do with chemistry and a lot to do with marketing in preparation for an IPO for a company that doesn't actually have any value.

Oh, hell, some math:
http://www.rai.com.ro/rai_desc.html


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Generates 1500 liters (53 cubic feet) of New gas per hour
Consumes about 5kw/h
Operates at 20 Amps and 220/240 VAC
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

kw/h is energy, not power. At those amps and voltage it's pulling 5 kW.

1500 l = 67 moles gas

Assuming total hydrolysis, 2/3 of the molecules are H2 so

45 moles H2
90 g H2 per hour produced

Enthalpy of hydrolysis is 39 W-h/g hydrogen.

= 3510 W required to form H2 from water at this output rate

= 3510 W is the max amount of energy you can get back when you burn the stuff. In an ICE, you'll get more like 35% of that, 1230 W.

But the page claims 5000 W is required input.

So basically, you use 5 kW (6.7 hp) to gain 1.2 kW (1.6 hp) using a really old and obvious piece of technology.

Hooray!


Discussion here (http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=56;t=002848;p=0)

and

Here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=56705)


FIRE WATER
Incredible! We are apparently immersed in a scientifically-ignorant culture in which the media can’t figure out the simplest of what would have been a grade-school science project for my generation. Go to www.randi.org/media/WaterFuel.wmv and be appalled at what “inventor” Denny Klein is selling to FOX26 News in Clearwater, Florida, via their excited reporter Craig Patrick, as a system that will run a car for 100 miles “fueled” solely by four ounces of water! In the video, a hydrogen torch using “HHO technology” that Klein demonstrates, is described by ridiculous expressions such as, “hotter than the surface of the Sun,” and we’re told that it takes “only seconds to literally burn a hole through charcoal.” Duh! Charcoal burns, dummy!


The FOX video shows Klein holding the tip of the welder between his fingers, which, they marvel, “remains cool to the touch.” Duh! again. Any of this sort of torch acts the same. The tip is cool because the compressed gas, as it decompresses and exits, makes the metal tip cold. It’s only when the mixed gases – hydrogen and oxygen, in this case – burn, that heat is produced, and that happens just beyond the tip. WHERE’S THE MIRACLE HERE? Clearwater’s FOX TV tells us, “No other gas will do this." Wrong, juvenile, and naïve. Add, stupid.

We’re told, in the FOX video, that “people still have trouble believing him” when Klein tells them that his fuel is water. Small wonder. That water has to first be broken down into hydrogen and oxygen through a method known as electrolysis. That process was discovered back in the 1800s, and it uses more energy than can be gained from it by burning the two components – that’s called the Conservation of Energy law, and it hasn’t yet been repealed. Cars that run “on water” have been re-invented every few years. Recently there was Steven Horvath in Australia, who sold a lot of stock to losers, Henry Garrett in Texas – in 1935 – and Stanley Meyer, who was convicted of fraud in 1996. Andrija Puharich – who also “discovered” Uri Geller! – Archie Blue, Bob Boyce, Carl Cella, Charles H. Garrett, Daniel Dingel, Hector Pierre Vaes, Nakamatsu Yoshiro, Sam Leslie Leach, Stanley Meyer, and scores of others, all came up with this same insane idea, and all fell on their collective nose.

Now, I don’t know who Craig Patrick is, nor whether he has a grade-school education, but if FOX26 News thinks they’ve got a genius on board, they’re dreaming. However, Klein will attract investors with this juvenile idea, and I’m sure someone in Washington will spend some of our tax dollars looking into it. Count on it.

[RandomGuy]

The alarm bells should start ringing in your head when a guy gets a "miracle" invention that is seemingly too good to be true, and starts trying to sell franchises.


"Look at my fantastic invention, it does all of this, and I have a great presentation on it. Now that you have seen the marketing presentation, how about giving me $10,000 for a franchise so that you can make money?"

RUN THE FUCK AWAY, AND CONTACT THE POLICE BEFORE THE GUY DISAPPEARS.

I have two semesters of college chemistry, and I know enough about what is going on to guess what this guy was doing, and that suspicion was borne out by some simple fact checking.

[RandomGuy]

Please remember that the existence of a patent application has no bearing whatsoever on the validity of any claim.

If I wanted to, I could pay the bucks and show you a similar patent application for my quantum-levitating-psychic-astrological-orb-generator-and-combination-wand-for-turning-lead-into-gold.

All an application means is that someone took the time and expense to file an application. It appears as if this patent application was filed to be able to try to fool the gullible using the fallacy of Appeal to Authority.

Even a granted patent does not necessarily mean the device works. I've seen a patent for a perpetual motion machine, sufficiently cloaked in technical mumbo-jumbo. All it means was that the design, as stated, was original and did not infringe on a previous patent.

- Timothy

This is not the first "water car", but merely another in a long line of frauds.

The pattern is this:

Guy builds an "water car".
Guy goes out and files for a patent.
When asked for proof or outside expert examination of the water car, he always finds some excuse to not do so, or simply vanishes.

I will bet you double or nothing on my student loans that he has not yet completed his patent by bringing the damn thing in and letting a patent office team look it over to see if it actually does what it says it does.

The lastest update from the HHO company is that the car is "just around the corner".

These things have been "just around the corner" for over two centuries (that is how long it has been since some chemist first ran electricity through water).

I think that "corner" is in never never land. ;)

[boutons_]

another joker, home brew ethanol plant, $10K, plus buying the bugs periodically, forever.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/04/27/business/27proto.php

Sugar lready has environmental/shipping costs, and the world price horribly depressed by European and NA sugar subsidies.

clean it? maintain it?

The replaceable parts list probabably probably prices out at $50K.

This joker really has the Big Picture down pat.

[Nbadan]

Is $10 per gallon gas possible?

Gasoline May Soon Cost a Sawbuck
Big New Shock at the Pump Forecast by Two Analysts
DAN DORFMAN



Get ready for another economic shock of major proportions — a virtual doubling of prices at the gas pump to as much as $10 a gallon.

That's the message from a couple of analytical energy industry trackers, both of whom, based on the surging oil prices, see considerably more pain at the pump than most drivers realize.

Gasoline nationally is in an accelerated upswing, having jumped to $3.58 a gallon from $3.50 in just the past week. In some parts of the country, including New York City and the West Coast, gas is already sporting a price tag above $4 a gallon. There was a pray-in at a Chevron station in San Francisco on Friday led by a minister asking God for cheaper gas, and an Arco gas station in San Mateo, Calif., has already raised its price to a sky-high $4.62.

In Manhattan, at a Mobil gas station at York Avenue and East 61st Street, premium gas is now $4.03 a gallon. Two days ago, it was $3.96. Why such a high price? "Blame the people at STOPEC (he meant OPEC) and the oil companies," an attendant there told me.

These increases are taking place before the all-important summer driving season, signaling even higher prices ahead.

That's also the outlook of the Automobile Association of America. "As long as the price of crude oil stays above $100 a barrel, drivers will be forced to pay more and more at the gas pump," a AAA spokesman, Troy Green, said.

Oil recently hit an all-time high of nearly $120 a barrel, more than double its early 2007 price of about $50 a barrel. It closed Friday at $118.52.

The forecasts calling for a jump to between $7 and $10 a gallon are based on the view that the price of crude is on its way to $200 in two to three years.

Translating this price into dollars and cents at the gas pump, one of our forecasters, the chairman of Houston-based Dune Energy, Alan Gaines, sees gas rising to $7-$8 a gallon. The other, a commodities tracker at Weiss Research in Jupiter, Fla., Sean Brodrick, projects a range of $8 to $10 a gallon.

While $7-$10 a gallon would be ground-breaking in America, these prices would not be trendsetting internationally. For example, European drivers are already shelling out $9 a gallon (which includes a $2-a-gallon tax).

Canadians are also being hit with rising gas prices. They are paying the American-dollar equivalent of $4.92 a gallon, and they're being told to brace themselves for prices above $5.65 a gallon this summer.

Early last year, with a barrel of oil trading in the low $50s and gasoline nationally selling in a range of $2.30 to $2.50 a gallon, Mr. Gaines — in an impressive display of crystal ball gazing — accurately predicted oil was $100-bound and that gasoline would follow suit by reaching $4 a gallon.

His latest prediction of $200 oil is open to question, since it would undoubtedly create considerable global economic distress. Further, just about every energy expert I talk to cautions me to expect a sizable pullback in oil prices, maybe to between $50 and $70 a barrel, especially if there's a global economic slowdown.

While Mr. Gaines thinks there could be a temporary decline in the oil price, he's convinced an overall uptrend is unstoppable. In fact, he thinks his $200 forecast could be conservative, and that perhaps $250 could be reached. His reasoning: a combination of shrinking supply and increasing demand, especially from China, India, and America.

Mr. Brodrick's $200 oil forecast is largely predicated on a combination of pretty flat supply and rip-roaring demand. Other key catalysts include surging demand in China and India, where auto sales are booming, and major supply disruptions in Nigeria and also in Mexico, our second-largest source of oil imports, where oil production has fallen off a cliff.

More factors include the ever-present danger of additional supply disruptions from volatile countries in the Middle East that are not our allies, and the unwillingness of SUV-loving Americans to trim their unquenchable thirst for foreign oil. Likewise, for the first time, emerging markets this year will use more oil than America.

The Sun (http://www2.nysun.com/article/75363)

I have no doubt that as long as the ME remains unstable gas prices will continue their trend upward...

[RandomGuy]

Is $10 per gallon gas possible?

It is inevitable. The better question is when that will happen.

Probably later than you think, and earlier than many here would seem to believe.

My best guess as to when we will see $10 gas is about 15 years down the road.

That might sound a bit harsh, but represents an overall average increase of about 7% per year over that time period.

[RandomGuy]

Here is the problem.

Low prices for crude for a long time led to a few things:

1) Exploration was not a high priority
2) Expanding and maintaining capacity was not a high priority
3) Many companies that did oil exploration left the field, taking the trained geologists with them.
4) Many companies that built and maintained oil rigs went out of business, taking the trained engineers and mechanics with them.
5) New graduates to petroleum engineering programs faced no job prospects, and programs for this specialized geology discinpline went away.

So, now that oil prices are through the roof, oil companies around the world are suddenly competing for:
Engineers
Equipment
Experienced field hands.

All of which are in short supply, driving up prices pretty damn quickly. No magic/mysterious conspiracy here, but rather it is the interaction of our good old friends, supply and demand.

The free-market system will adapt to the profits to be made and increase the available supply for the above goods/services, but it takes time to ramp up programs, especially when petroleum engineering professors are getting mondo job offers at quadruple their present salaries...

I think we will see a ramp up of production over the coming years, but that ramp up will be more than met by increasing demand.

[TeyshaBlue]

We'll see oil prices stabilize and even drop as soon as the dollar regains it's strength. Oil has become a safe haven against the weak dollar....all those recent interest rate cuts by the fed killed the dollar.

You want gas prices to stabilze? Prop up the dollar and hope those mortgages start getting paid.

[Don Quixote]

Yes, dollar neglect is a likely factor.

What is the role of environmental regulations and activism in driving up the cost of oil?

[boutons_]

"It is inevitable"

World govts should take all food and oil commodities out of the specullators' hands. OPEC says they don't control the price of oil nows, the speculators do.

The oil price in US now is being held down by the oilcos to protect the Repugs and McCain. ie, they are eating margin to keep the price rise down, but still:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/01/news/companies/exxon_earnings/

Are the oil producers saying the rise in oil to $120 is due to limits on supply?

[RandomGuy]

We'll see oil prices stabilize and even drop as soon as the dollar regains it's strength. Oil has become a safe haven against the weak dollar....all those recent interest rate cuts by the fed killed the dollar.

You want gas prices to stabilze? Prop up the dollar and hope those mortgages start getting paid.

I concur. I am with the school of thought that thinks the Fed is VERY close to being done with interest rate cuts, aka "one and done", for quite some time.

I don't think there is any need to "prop up" the dollar, if such a thing is even feasible.

[TeyshaBlue]

"It is inevitable"

World govts should take all food and oil commodities out of the specullators' hands. OPEC says they don't control the price of oil nows, the speculators do.

The oil price in US now is being held down by the oilcos to protect the Repugs and McCain. ie, they are eating margin to keep the price rise down, but still:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/01/news/companies/exxon_earnings/

Are the oil producers saying the rise in oil to $120 is due to limits on supply?


You have completely lost your mind as well as the ability to reason thru an arguement.:bang

The oilcos are not holding down the price...if anything, they are underproducing to prop up the price of fuel and burn through their winter inventory as they begin their expensive change over to summer gasoline.

Dont forget....exxon makes more money because it moves more money. The profit margin stays roughly the same, but if you sell a gallon of gas for 2 dollars one week and make 8%, then if the price goes up to 4 dollars next week, that 8% is going to yield more money. :angel

[TeyshaBlue]

I concur. I am with the school of thought that thinks the Fed is VERY close to being done with interest rate cuts, aka "one and done", for quite some time.

I don't think there is any need to "prop up" the dollar, if such a thing is even feasible.


I don't think there is anything to be done to prop up the dollar either, other than stop the rate cuts and stop undercutting it.

[Nbadan]

My best guess as to when we will see $10 gas is about 15 years down the road.

Wait a minute..that's the same thing you said about $4 gas less than 2 years ago and here we are...

[boutons_]

"all those recent interest rate cuts by the fed killed the dollar."

"recent" must go back a long time.

The Fed cutting rates and pumping out $$ fueled the mortgage boom. Guilty lenders are currently viciously fighting all regulation of their business. They'd like to stay with borrower's "stated income" rather than 2 years' IRS/CC/bank statements.

dubya's "boom" was absolutley nothing but a boom in US and personal debt, not real growth. Like everything else dubya touches, it all turned to shit.

[TeyshaBlue]

"all those recent interest rate cuts by the fed killed the dollar."

"recent" must go back a long time.

The Fed cutting rates and pumping out $$ fueled the mortgage boom. Guilty lenders are currently viciously fighting all regulation of their business. They'd like to stay with borrower's "stated income" rather than 2 years' IRS/CC/bank statements.

dubya's "boom" was absolutley nothing but a boom in US and personal debt, not real growth. Like everything else dubya touches, it all turned to shit.

Yeah...it does go back a long time. But the dollar was able to absorb the cuts for years while slowly eroding. Now, it doesn't seem to have the capacity to take a punch anymore and the recent cuts have been pummeling it.

[remingtonbo2001]

If gas prices are a concern, here is a site which offers a few helpful tips.

http://www.christinecolumbus.com/stretchinggasdollars.asp

[Nbadan]

April 28, 2008


...Meanwhile, the president of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries says oil prices could go as high as $200 a barrel.

...According to the Reuters news agency, OPEC chief Chakib Khelil told Algeria's government newspaper, El Moudjahid, the high prices are a result of the dollar's slide, and have little to do with oil supplies.

The record oil prices come as some economists expect two of the world's biggest oil companies, Exxon Mobil and Royal Dutch Shell, to announce record first-quarter profits.

Link (http://www.voanews.com/english/2008-04-28-voa36.cfm)

[RandomGuy]

Yes, dollar neglect is a likely factor.

What is the role of environmental regulations and activism in driving up the cost of oil?

Not as much as some seem to think.

[JoeChalupa]

It will only go higher. The day of what I call cheap gas are over. No mas.

[boutons_]

And of course Detroit, coddled by dubya for 7 years, now with a lazy, long CAFE, is not ready to offer US cars that get 40,50 mpg in $6+/gal markets.

so? buy Japanese, buy European, etc.

[RandomGuy]

And of course Detroit, coddled by dubya for 7 years, now with a lazy, long CAFE, is not ready to offer US cars that get 40,50 mpg in $6+/gal markets.

so? buy Japanese, buy European, etc.

Vive la free-market system.

Ohio's employment problems don't stem from any US government policy, it stems from the horrible strategic blunders of the US automakers.

They spent all of their money on giving us what we as consumers wanted, and that is all well and good, but didn't look much past the next fiscal year, and unsurprisingly it bit them in the ass. This is where American companies get pwned because of the the way we have a tendency to focus too much on quarterly results.

Ford seems to have had the best outlook of the bunch and that forward looking strategy means that they are a bit ahead of the ball game. I see the big F (http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=f&d=t&submit=Get+Quotes) doing quite well in the coming years. Their stock will sit around for the next year or so, and then take off as they acheive the turnaround that their management has been working towards long before GM realized the need.

[Don Quixote]

Ford seems to have had the best outlook of the bunch and that forward looking strategy means that they are a bit ahead of the ball game. I see the big F doing quite well in the coming years. Their stock will sit around for the next year or so, and then take off as they acheive the turnaround that their management has been working towards long before GM realized the need.

Is this a stock tip? How can we know that you're not just a pump-and-dump huckster?

[RandomGuy]

Is this a stock tip? How can we know that you're not just a pump-and-dump huckster?

(laughs) I assume that is a joke, but on the off chance it was half-way serious:

Ford stock is kind of hard for one guy to do a "pump and dump", with an average volue of 81M shares traded PER DAY (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=f+stock+quote&btnG=Search).

Pump and dumps work best with thinly traded small companies and Ford is neither thinly traded, nor small.

It is a stock tip. I have no financial interest in Ford at all. I know nobody who works at Ford, own no Ford stock, and have no financial interests in dealerships or anything else.

I WILL be pumping some retirement/investment funds into Ford at some point in the next few years, and plan on keeping that money there until retirement. Based on this, it is actually in my economic best interest to talk smack about the company to try and bring the price down until I buy into the company.

Take the advice for what it is worth.

[RandomGuy]

I do own a Ford vehicle. One used cop car Crown Victoria. I will drive this vehicle through its 300,000th mile sometime in October. Helluva car.

There is a good chance I will buy a Ford Focus or Toyota Corolla in the coming year though. I am leaning on the Corolla simply because of the fact that there will be a Toyota factory in SA pretty soon. I think they are primarily going to be building trucks there, but the Toyota company infrastructure in the area will certainly benefit greatly from this.