Amare = Most overrated PF in the game

[stretch]

AT LEAST 16-22 of his points every game come off of piss poor defense on the P&R, which is extremely hard for anyone to defend, MAINLY because of Nash's incredible passing and shooting ability. Stoudemire cannot create for himself for shit though, and makes Steve Nash even look like somewhat decent of a defender, because Nash actually somewhat tries. Amare sucks, and doesnt even try either. His judgment and effort on rebounds is fucking horrible. He is a good player, and amazes me with his incredibly explosive athleticism, and his soft touch around the rim, but he is the most overrated PF in the game today, without a doubt. No fucking way should he even be somewhat considered for MVP when Steve Nash is the reason he even looks this good. You can't say the same about guys like Duncan and Dirk. Those guys can create and they make their teammates better. Amare can't and will NEVER be a #1 option because of his inability to create. He will always have to be the #2 guy.

[The Nba Is Rigged]

Amare is not overrated imo, he is an unstoppable beast on offense. He works so hard on his offensive game which I give him props for. His problem is his defense but as long as I don't hear people raving about his defense he is not overrated imo.

[stretch]

but what offense does he have that doesn't involve Steve Nash setting him up with fantastic passes? I almost never see him just take a guy to the hole. I have NEVER seen him take over a game by himself (that means without a constant barrage of great passes from Nash). He has no real post game, an average jumpshot that he can only hit when WIDE open and has about 5 seconds to set up, no moves to get to the hole by himself... the guy simply cannot create.

he is one of the best complimentary PF's ive ever seen though. he is perfect for any PG that knows how to distribute the ball. but without a guy like that, he is a good PF, but nothing more. not a superstar, or anything like that. not even close.

[monosylab1k]

the fact that he was within the same zip code of MVP talk at one point this year means he's way overrated.

[The Nba Is Rigged]

but what offense does he have that doesn't involve Steve Nash setting him up with fantastic passes? I almost never see him just take a guy to the hole. I have NEVER seen him take over a game by himself (that means without a constant barrage of great passes from Nash). He has no real post game, an average jumpshot that he can only hit when WIDE open and has about 5 seconds to set up, no moves to get to the hole by himself... the guy simply cannot create.

he is one of the best complimentary PF's ive ever seen though. he is perfect for any PG that knows how to distribute the ball. but without a guy like that, he is a good PF, but nothing more. not a superstar, or anything like that. not even close.

Yeah good point, I never thought of it that way. Now that I think about it Amare really is overrated. He needs Nash to create his offense and he needs Shaq to help him on defense and to do the dirty work. Good point stretch :toast

[mystargtr34]

Amare put up 21 points per game on decent shooting as a 21 year old Soph... so i think he was always on the way to stardom...

No doubt Nash is a big part of his game.... but Amare is a top 5 big for me... with or without Nash.

[stretch]

Amare put up 21 points per game on decent shooting as a 21 year old Soph... so i think he was always on the way to stardom...

No doubt Nash is a big part of his game.... but Amare is a top 5 big for me... with or without Nash.
Yes, he is a good player. I'm not doubting that. But he is very overrated as well.

And he took like 20 shots a game towards the end of the season when it was obvious their season was done, so of course his scoring would go up as well. But considering that his game consists solely of dunks and put-backs, to shoot 47% is not all that great. he should AT LEAST be in the 50% range if that is his entire game, which it was more of the case back then, as he had not yet developed a jumpshot like he sort of has lately.

not impressed.

[balli]

Fuck Amare. He doesn't work hard on his offense at all. If he did he'd have at least one move that Steve Nash doesn't set up. His defense sucks, he doesn't have a single good post move, his footwork sucks and he's never created his own shot in his life.

He is to Steve Nash what Kenyon Martin was to J-Kidd back in 03'.

[Supergirl]

I agree in general - Nash makes Amare into a decent player. His buckets are the result of Nash's brilliance at PG. With a less than top notch PG, Amare would be a subpar PF - not even mediocre.

However, that's just Amare's good luck. It is what it is. Many a great player has become great by the players they play with. However, when it comes down to it, the Suns STILL have not learned to play defense, and defense ALWAYS wins championships down the stretch. I would say the Mavs are closer to winning it all than the Suns, for this reason, but I would say the Hornets, the Spurs, and the Lakers are all even closer. The Jazz would be, if they could ever learn to play on the road, and the Rockets would be, if they could ever stay healthy all at the same time for more than a week at a time. But neither of those things are going to happen between now and June.

[JamStone]

He's not overrated because no one puts him in the same sentence of guys like Duncan and Garnett except for Shaq and himself. He might be overrated by himself. But, most people know he's a sub par defender and that Steve Nash has been a big part in how well he plays.

As mentioned, he did put up 21 ppg in 2003-04 before Nash got there, albeit for a Suns team that sucked. But, putting up 21 points per game is no joke, especially for a 21 year old, second year NBA kid. And, in his first playoff game as a rookie, he did drop 24 points and 9 rebounds on 9 for 13 shooting on Tim Duncan and the Spurs. Granted, he didn't do much more after that first game. But, even as a kid, he was good.

They guy is good. Still a top 5 power forward. He's not very good defensively. But, he's outstanding offensively, especially with the development of his jumper. While Nash makes outstanding passes, Amare often times makes outstanding catches and even more incredible finishes once he does catch those passes.

[endrity]

He was single covered by Devean George, Kidd, and Howard at times last game. When he tried to take them, he had very little success, even though very rarely did the defense collapse on him.

Unless Nash is finding him, he is at times useless. I think he is starting to suffer from the same desease that Marion did, namely get so used to playing with Nash that you don't even bother to work on the rest of your game.

Remember that by last year, Marion could barely put the ball on the floor anymore and had no go to moves. That is difficult to believe for an All-star 6'7 SF/PF but if you watched the games it was true. Marion was either hitting a corner 3, or getting the easy dunk of Nash. Other than that he had no in between game at all almost.

Well Amare is starting to look freakishly the same. Shaq has taken some of the attention of the big men away from him, but against a good team that buckled down on defense, even with smaller guys, he wasn't able to create anything.

And how crazy was it that a hobbled Dirk, made Amare look really slow on defense and Dirk look like the 23 year old, SF, version of himself running around and taking Amare of the dribble.

[stretch]

He's not overrated because no one puts him in the same sentence of guys like Duncan and Garnett except for Shaq and himself.
what about those people saying he is an MVP candidate?

overrated.

[Findog]

Amare is crazy good on offense, and he's added a bevy of moves now. He'd be a dynamic scorer with or without Nash.

But you just can't put him into the elite level when he's so fucking bad defensively. It's just amazing how much matador defense he plays where he does absolutely nothing to contest shots.

[balli]

The Jazz would be, if they could ever learn to play on the road.

Utah's road situation is convoluted. In fact we have some great wins on the road. We won at Denver when it still mattered. We went to Phoenix and wiped the floor with them. In Boston, we handed the celts thier worst loss of the season. I'm pretty sure we beat NO in NO.

The fact is most of our road losses came against terrible teams- Atlanta, Indiana, New Jersey, Chicago, Charlotte, New York and Miami and lost on the road twice to Minnesota, twice to Sacramento and once to the L.A. Clippers.

To me, those losses don't speak whatsoever to our ability to beat good teams on the road. If anything it says that we had one terrible Dec. road trip and that we tend to play to the level of competiton around us. It's not a good thing, but to label the Jazz as a bad road team (as everyone has done) is to not fully understand the situation. Bad road teams don't whup the shit out of all the good teams they face on the road.

Hence, we don't have a problem with the road in general, we have a problem getting up for road games against shit teams. In the playoffs, there are no shit teams, hence the road shouldn't be nearly as mcuh of a problem as it was back in that horrible Dec. we had.

[Findog]

what about those people saying he is an MVP candidate?



That was mainly Amare himself, and his knobgobblers at freedarko.

It's so funny, the true MVPs never campaign for the award. They don't need the validation from sportswriters.

[TheMACHINE]

gasol or amare?

[stretch]

They guy is good. Still a top 5 power forward.
Unquestionably Better

Duncan
Dirk
Garnett
Jefferson
Rasheed
Brand

Same Level if not Better

Boozer
Bosh
Gasol

Other Notables and Arguables

West
J O'Neal
Aldridge

[stretch]

Amare is crazy good on offense, and he's added a bevy of moves now.
What moves are that? Jump straight into his defender, scream and flail his arms, then throw up a shot as he gets a bullshit foul call? That's about the best move I've ever seen from him. The refs seriously need to quit calling that shit.

[Medvedenko]

Look anyone who doesn't say that Amare isn't a solid Top 5 PF in the NBA is just hating. Is he perfect no, but he goes out and does his job. Who's to say that if Nash wasn't around he couldn't change his game and be effective.

[balli]

Amare is crazy good on offense, and he's added a bevy of moves now. He'd be a dynamic scorer with or without Nash.

What moves? With his back to the basket he's worthless. He has one fake and drive move from the high post, but in general Amare rarely, rarely, rarely creates his own shot. I'd agree he's athletic enough to be a scorer without nash, but he'd still be operating and getting his points at the behest of his PG. You can screen-roll and throw lob passes to him all day and it probably doesn't matter much who the PG is, but still, Amare will always need a PG to get his points for him.

[JamStone]

Al Jefferson is not better than Amare Stoudemire.

Dirk is slightly better than Amare, not overwhelmingly so.

Rasheed is more talented than Amare, not sure if he's better. He would be better if wanted to be. But, Rasheed doesn't necessarily want to be.

Elton Brand didn't play all year. He may have been better when he was healthy. Hard to make that claim right now.

[Medvedenko]

I say he's better than Pau but if he was on the Lakers he'd be worse.

[JamStone]

What moves? With his back to the basket he's worthless. He has one fake and drive move from the high post, but in general Amare rarely, rarely, rarely creates his own shot. I'd agree he's athletic enough to be a scorer without nash, but he'd still be operating and getting his points at the behest of his PG. You can screen-roll and throw lob passes to him all day and it probably doesn't matter much who the PG is, but still, Amare will always need a PG to get his points for him.

Fortunately for Amare, most NBA franchises like having a point guard on their teams. There are very, very few teams that don't play with a point guard, and even those teams have a guard or point forward that orchestrates the offense, which basically is the role of a point guard.

[balli]

Boozer
Bosh
Gasol

I'd say all three of these guys are better. Although Boozer's D is somehow worse than Amare's is.

Watch out for Bynum too. He'll one day be a much, much better player than Amare could ever be.

[monosylab1k]

If you take a test in school and willfully leave half the test unanswered, what's going to happen? It doesn't matter that you get every single question you put forth the effort of answering right......if you decide that half the questions aren't worth answering, you're not going to get a good grade.

Amare plays half the game.....it doesn't matter what he does on offense, he's not a great player until he at least puts forth an effort on the defensive end.

[balli]

Fortunately for Amare, most NBA franchises like having a point guard on their teams. There are very, very few teams that don't play with a point guard, and even those teams have a guard or point forward that orchestrates the offense, which basically is the role of a point guard.

Fortunately for him, but that doesn't make him great. It is a huge advantage to have a PF who can create his own shot from the post without the PG's help. Huge. And Amare can't do it.

All he'll ever be is a finisher for his PG. That's enough to get by in this league, especially if you finish as well as Amare does. It is not enough to make him into an MVP candidate or a top PF though. Combine that with his awful D & that's the reason he's overrated.

[stretch]

Al Jefferson is not better than Amare Stoudemire.

Wrong. Jefferson rebounds, scores on his own, and plays defense.


Dirk is slightly better than Amare, not overwhelmingly so.

Fucking wrong. Dirk puts up better numbers and more wins as the #1 option on his team and having to create 85% of his offense by himself. Amare is the #2 guy on his and has 95% of his offense created for him.


Rasheed is more talented than Amare, not sure if he's better. He would be better if wanted to be. But, Rasheed doesn't necessarily want to be.

He doesn't have to play better all the time. But if I needed a guy in the 4th quarter for both ends of the court, I'm taking Sheed all fucking day. Nuff said.


Elton Brand didn't play all year. He may have been better when he was healthy. Hard to make that claim right now.

Brand is better. Like Jefferson, he creates his own offense, rebounds, and plays defense.

[Medvedenko]

Look, I know he leads the league in pushups, but he's pretty damn good player. From what I see and I watch a lot of games he has a decent jumper and can drive and use his quickness to get shots off. He doesn't really have a back to the basket game, but he's a great finisher and can create space with his drive.

[stretch]

Fortunately for Amare, most NBA franchises like having a point guard on their teams. There are very, very few teams that don't play with a point guard, and even those teams have a guard or point forward that orchestrates the offense, which basically is the role of a point guard.
Yea, but not many PG's in NBA history has the passing and shooting ability of Steve Nash, do they, smartass?

Let's see how good he is with Jason Terry running PG. That should answer those questions.

[balli]

He doesn't really have a back to the basket game, but he's a great finisher and can create space with his drive.

How could a PF without a post-game be called one of the best? I just don't get it. That's what good PF's do- play with their back to the basket.

[Medvedenko]

How could a PF without a post-game be called one of the best? I just don't get it. That's what good PF's do- play with their back to the basket.

I agree, but his other talents like the blow by and jumper make up for it. If he had a half ass post up game, he'd be the best PF in the world.

[stretch]

he has a decent jumper

only when wide fucking open. doesnt mean shit if you have a guy in your grill though.


can drive and use his quickness to get shots off.

no he can't. all he does is jump into his defenders, or get a P&R to have a smaller guy switched onto him so he can go over him.


He doesn't really have a back to the basket game, but he's a great finisher

can't argue that. ive always loved his soft touch around the rim.


and can create space with his drive.

no.

[monosylab1k]

I don't see Amare as being any farther along the "greatness" level than Bruce Bowen.

Bowen has been among the greatest defensive players in the league, but he's not a strong player on offense besides his corner three. Nobody is calling him one of the great players in the game, or a top-5 SF, and there has certainly been no MVP talk.

Amare is among the best offensive players in the league, but he is absolutely horrid on defense besides a block here or there. He deserves to be put on the same level as Bowen. Great on one end, fairly nonexistent on the other.

Actually he should be lower than Bowen, because Bowen actually puts forth an effort on both ends of the court.

[stretch]

I agree, but his other talents like the blow by and jumper make up for it. If he had a half ass post up game, he might be the best offensive PF in the world.
fixed.

[balli]

I agree, but his other talents like the blow by and jumper make up for it. If he had a half ass post up game, he'd be the best PF in the world.

They don't make up for it. His drive out of the high post is his only move. It's a good move, true, but it's the only thing he does by himself. One move a great PF does not make.

His jumper is decent, but it certainly isn't better than Boozer, Garnett. Duncan, etc. Plus he has to be wide open to get it off.

Unfortunately he doesn't even have a "half-assed" post up game, so really, it's a moot point.

[JamStone]

Yea, but not many PG's in NBA history has the passing and shooting ability of Steve Nash, do they, smartass?

Let's see how good he is with Jason Terry running PG. That should answer those questions.


Uh, the kid led his team in scoring, dropping almost 21 ppg in 2003-04 with more than half the season with Leandro Barbosa as the point guard, who isn't a point guard and Howard Eisley backing him up. I'd say he can carry his own without Nash. His team would suck, but uh any team is going to suck if a player's teammates aren't very good. KG's Timberwolves sucked several years when McHale failed to put a quality surrounding cast around KG. Kobe's Lakers sucked in 2004-05 when his teammates weren't very good. Amare's team wouldn't be as good without Steve Nash. Uh yeah. Of course it wouldn't be. He's still going to put up numbers.

With Jason Terry running the point, Amare would likely be just about as effective as Dirk. You act like Terry can't play at all. He might be a combo guard, but he's still a player.

I'm not even one claiming Amare is an MVP candidate or he's a superstar or anything like that. But, give the guy some credit. He has his limitations. But so do most players in the league. Some of you act like he's one of the worst power forward in the league.

[stretch]

Uh, the kid led his team in scoring, dropping almost 21 ppg in 2003-04 with more than half the season with Leandro Barbosa as the point guard, who isn't a point guard and Howard Eisley backing him up. I'd say he can carry his own without Nash. His team would suck, but uh any team is going to suck if a player's teammates aren't very good. KG's Timberwolves sucked several years when McHale failed to put a quality surrounding cast around KG. Kobe's Lakers sucked in 2004-05 when his teammates weren't very good. Amare's team wouldn't be as good without Steve Nash. Uh yeah. Of course it wouldn't be. He's still going to put up numbers.

With Jason Terry running the point, Amare would likely be just about as effective as Dirk. You act like Terry can't play at all. He might be a combo guard, but he's still a player.

I'm not even one claiming Amare is an MVP candidate or he's a superstar or anything like that. But, give the guy some credit. He has his limitations. But so do most players in the league. Some of you act like he's one of the worst power forward in the league.
No one acted like he is one of the worst PF's in the league at all. I just said that he plays no defense, doesnt rebound, and while has some good offensive ability, its mostly due to his incredible athleticism, as opposed to skills. Dirk and Duncan aren't an incredible athletes, but are incredibly skilled, and are far better players than Amare could ever hope to be.

[JamStone]

Wrong. Jefferson rebounds, scores on his own, and plays defense.

Since when did Jefferson play defense?



Fucking wrong. Dirk puts up better numbers and more wins as the #1 option on his team and having to create 85% of his offense by himself. Amare is the #2 guy on his and has 95% of his offense created for him.

Dirk can dribble the ball. Hurray! I said Dirk is better. He's just not miles ahead of Amare. Dirk can create his own shot. Great. And, he's improved his defense. Great. When it comes to actual production, Dirk isn't that much better than Amare. So Amare has a better point guard. Ok. It's not Amare's fault. At 25, Amare's putting up better numbers than Dirk did when Dirk was 25 with that same point guard.



He doesn't have to play better all the time. But if I needed a guy in the 4th quarter for both ends of the court, I'm taking Sheed all fucking day. Nuff said.

I'll agree with that. Sheed has more talent. And, in the clutch, he is a better player. I'd take Sheed too. But, Sheed is more content being a role player. In the fourth, he doesn't care if he gets the ball or not. He's more than willing to let Billups or Hamilton take over. If his number is called, he'll perform. But, he doesn't want or need to be "the guy." I consider Rasheed the ultimate role player because he has the talent to be a go-to guy but the unselfishness of a role player.



Brand is better. Like Jefferson, he creates his own offense, rebounds, and plays defense.

Today's Elton Brand is not necessarily Elton Brand pre-injury. So until he proves that, I would reserve judgment in calling him the better player. That was my only point.

[balli]

I don't think he's one of the worst in the league and I realize you're not calling him MVP. The fact is though, that Amare is not one of the best in the league either. He's somewhere in the middle, but he eats salary like he was THE best.

If I were a GM trying to build a championship and if you gave me a choice for a guy like Scola for example; a guy who played D, got rebounds, could give you maybe 10 pts a night from the post and he cost half as much, I would take him over Amare in a heartbeat.

Amare's dunks and jumping ability have made him into a high-paid superstar. His stardom demands undue amounts of money for a guy who will never be anything but a finisher. Given that fact his game is innefficient and ultimately, not conducive to team success.

[JamStone]

No one acted like he is one of the worst PF's in the league at all. I just said that he plays no defense, doesnt rebound, and while has some good offensive ability, its mostly due to his incredible athleticism, as opposed to skills. Dirk and Duncan aren't an incredible athletes, but are incredibly skilled, and are far better players than Amare could ever hope to be.


Amare isn't the elite rebounder guys like KG or Dwight Howard or Duncan are, but a 9.1 career rebounding average says that he's not a guy that doesn't rebound. Please.

Have you not watched how Amare has improved his jumpshot over the years? How is that due to incredible athleticism. Plus, it takes more than just athleticism to efficiently execute a pick-and-roll. If all of Amare's points were in transition and on offensive putbacks, it would be one thing. But, there is skill at executing the pick-and-roll. And, there is skill at hitting a 15-18 foot jump shot.

Dirk and Duncan aren't mind-blowing athletes like Amare, LeBron, and Dwight Howard. But, they are both great athletes. If a guy like Amare is a 10 in terms of athleticism, Dirk is at least a 9 and Duncan is an 8.5, maybe a 9 as well. Dirk is actually a phenomenal athlete, especially considering his agilty and quickness for his size.

Amare probably won't ever be as skilled as Dirk or Duncan. When you're talking about two of the most skilled power forwards in the game, it's hard to be that. But, he doesn't need to be in order to be a great player in this league.

[stretch]

Since when did Jefferson play defense?

Compared to Amare? Get the fuck outta here...


Dirk can dribble the ball. Hurray! I said Dirk is better. He's just not miles ahead of Amare. Dirk can create his own shot. Great. And, he's improved his defense. Great. When it comes to actual production, Dirk isn't that much better than Amare. So Amare has a better point guard. Ok. It's not Amare's fault. At 25, Amare's putting up better numbers than Dirk did when Dirk was 25 with that same point guard.

So you are saying that stats are more important than the things that matter that don't show up on the stat board? Like determination, effort, heart, clutch play, defense, etc...? Okay, since offensive stats is all that matters, then Allen Iverson is a top 5 player ever since he has ridiculous scoring averages along with very solid assist numbers.


I'll agree with that. Sheed has more talent. And, in the clutch, he is a better player. I'd take Sheed too. But, Sheed is more content being a role player. In the fourth, he doesn't care if he gets the ball or not. He's more than willing to let Billups or Hamilton take over. If his number is called, he'll perform. But, he doesn't want or need to be "the guy." I consider Rasheed the ultimate role player because he has the talent to be a go-to guy but the unselfishness of a role player.

I agree. Thus, Rasheed > Amare.


Today's Elton Brand is not necessarily Elton Brand pre-injury. So until he proves that, I would reserve judgment in calling him the better player. That was my only point.

Good for you. Elton is still better.

[JamStone]

I don't think he's one of the worst in the league and I realize you're not calling him MVP. The fact is though, that Amare is not one of the best in the league either. He's somewhere in the middle.

If I were a GM trying to build a championship and if you gave me a choice between a guy like Scola for example; a guy who played D, got rebounds, could give you maybe 10 pts a night from the post and he cost half as much, I would take him over Amare in a heartbeat.

Amare's dunks and jumping ability have made him into a high-paid superstar. His stardom demands undue amounts of money for a guy who will never be anything but a finisher. Given that fact his game is innefficient and ultimately, not conducive to team success.


Among NBA power forwards, where would you rank Amare Stoudemire?

Somewhere in the middle? Like around 15 among starting power forwards?

I'd like to know where you rank him among power forwards in the league.



edit:


If I were a GM trying to build a championship and if you gave me a choice between a guy like Scola for example; a guy who played D, got rebounds, could give you maybe 10 pts a night from the post and he cost half as much, I would take him over Amare in a heartbeat.

You wouldn't be an NBA GM for very long.

[mavsfan1000]

Amare is the best scoring power forward in the league. Stop hating.

[Medvedenko]

Yeah, let's see this ranking.....

[JamStone]

Compared to Amare? Get the fuck outta here...

You didn't say compared to Amare. You just said Al Jefferson plays defense. He does?



So you are saying that stats are more important than the things that matter that don't show up on the stat board? Like determination, effort, heart, clutch play, defense, etc...? Okay, since offensive stats is all that matters, then Allen Iverson is a top 5 player ever since he has ridiculous scoring averages along with very solid assist numbers.

No, but while Dirk has actually learned how to try harder on defense, he's still not very good. And, while since his ankle injury, he's shown a lot of heart, plenty of people have questioned his heart, determination, and clutch play the past couple seasons. Where does Dirk have Amare?

If you want to say defense, lol, it's barely. If you want to say effort or determination, I'd ask what evidence? If you want to say clutch play, I'd ask about Golden State last year and the 2006 Finals. So, where's the major difference that makes Dirk better?



I agree. Thus, Rasheed > Amare.

If you agree, then you're saying:

great third option > main option



Good for you. Elton is still better.

No.

[stretch]

Amare isn't the elite rebounder guys like KG or Dwight Howard or Duncan are, but a 9.1 career rebounding average says that he's not a guy that doesn't rebound. Please.

When no one else rebounds the ball, and almost every game he has one of those times where he misses 2 or 3 putbacks to shoot his rebounding stat up in a quick spurt, then yes, his numbers will raise. Also, playing such a high tempo game with more shots, will lead to more missed shots, which also leads to more rebounds available to grab. In a San Antonio/Dallas pace, he would be lucky to average more than 6 boards a game.


Have you not watched how Amare has improved his jumpshot over the years? How is that due to incredible athleticism. Plus, it takes more than just athleticism to efficiently execute a pick-and-roll. If all of Amare's points were in transition and on offensive putbacks, it would be one thing. But, there is skill at executing the pick-and-roll. And, there is skill at hitting a 15-18 foot jump shot.

It has improved. Instead of airballing wide open 17 footers, he hits them, but still can't shoot if anyone is within 5 feet of him.

And there is more skill required to run a P&R if you have an average PG throwing passes for you. But in Nash's case, its just "set the pick and run" because he will get you the pass, or bust your ass with a 3. The issue with the P&R against Phoenix isn't about how you defend Amare. Its a "pick your poison" with Nash, because he will either thread a pass to Amare, or hit a jumper. Everyone knows that Nash is the focal point of the offense, P&R, everything for the Suns...


Amare probably won't ever be as skilled as Dirk or Duncan. When you're talking about two of the most skilled power forwards in the game, it's hard to be that. But, he doesn't need to be in order to be a great player in this league.

No, but you do need to at least TRY to play defense, which Amare doesn't do.

[balli]

Among NBA power forwards, where would you rank Amare Stoudemire?

Somewhere in the middle? Like around 15 among starting power forwards?

I'd like to know where you rank him among power forwards in the league.



edit:



You wouldn't be an NBA GM for very long.


1. Duncan
2. Garnett
3. Bynum by this time next year (although he's a C)
4. Boozer
5. Dirk
6. PG-20-10
7. Sheed
8. Bosh
9. Brand- pre injury (but he'll be fine)
10. Amare- Al Jefferson (tie) Although Jefferson will be a better player soon if not already.

Plus, if you consider his salary he becomes even more worthless. I'd rather have a defensive role player PF who doesn't score as much but can occasionally post up and I'd save my money for a guy who could actually create.

Edit: I'd be a GM forever, I wouldn't give 1/3 of my salary cap to a guy like Amare if my life depended on it.

[mavsfan1000]

1. Duncan
2. Garnett
3. Bynum by this time next year (although he's a C)
4. Boozer
5. Dirk
6. PG-20-10
7. Sheed
8. Bosh
9. Brand- pre injury (but he'll be fine)
10. Amare- Al Jefferson (tie) Although Jefferson will be a better player soon if not already.

Plus, if you consider his salary he becomes even more worthless. I'd rather have a defensive role player PF who doesn't score as much but can occasionally post up and I'd save my money for a guy who could actually create.

Edit: I'd be a GM forever, I wouldn't give 1/3 of my salary cap to a guy like Amare if my life depended on it.
Stop smoking the hippie lettuce. Boozer and Bynum better than Dirk? :lol For me it's
1. Duncan
2. Garnett
3. Dirk
4. Amare Stoudemire
5. Bosh

[stretch]

You didn't say compared to Amare. You just said Al Jefferson plays defense. He does?

The list was created to compare players to Amare. If you didn't realize that, then why the fuck are you wasting my time arguing with you, when you dont even know how to fuckin read?


No, but while Dirk has actually learned how to try harder on defense, he's still not very good. And, while since his ankle injury, he's shown a lot of heart, plenty of people have questioned his heart, determination, and clutch play the past couple seasons. Where does Dirk have Amare?

Some people have questioned him, plenty have defended. Of course Spurs fans here are going to question him an awful lot, but there are plenty people who defended him quite a bit as well, especially after this season, seeing that a lot of the faliures were not really his fault, but more so because of guys like Howard, Terry, and Stack fucking things up at the worst possible times. All you have to do is pull up a highlight reel of Dirk, and half of it will contain major clutch shots, game winners, etc... pull up a highlight reel of Amare, and what do you have? A shit load of alley-oops that he caught from Steve Nash. But hey! At least they win in the ratings championships if that makes anyone feel better.


If you want to say defense, lol, it's barely. If you want to say effort or determination, I'd ask what evidence? If you want to say clutch play, I'd ask about Golden State last year and the 2006 Finals. So, where's the major difference that makes Dirk better?

I really don't want to go into detail about Dirk and peoples blind haterism of him and the unfair bashing he has gone through, and prove what fucking retards his haters and the people that bring up those series truly are. All I will say is this... what big-time clutch plays has Amare ever really been a part of in the playoffs?



If you agree, then you're saying:

great option on a team where anyone can be the 1st or 3rd option on any given night due to the system and unselfishness of the entire club > 2nd option whos entire offense is created for him by arguably the best offensive PG in NBA history

Fixed.


No.

Yes. Die. :dizzy

[balli]

Stop smoking the hippie lettuce. Boozer better than Dirk?

Maybe it's my Jazz homerism and Booze is pretty damn soft on D, but at least he doesn't fold like a little bitch everytime he sees a double team.

Edit: Amare doesn't see double teams because he doesn't even have the skill to hold the ball and create/pass against 1 defender, much less two.

[Findog]

I'd take Amare over Luis Scola easily, but I'd also get a coach that would jump his ass for his terrible defense. Say what you will about Avery, but one great thing he did was insist Dirk play D. That's what Amare needs, a coach who will hold him accountable.

[balli]

I'd take Amare over Luis Scola easily, but I'd also get a coach that would jump his ass for his terrible defense. Say what you will about Avery, but one great thing he did was insist Dirk play D. That's what Amare needs, a coach who will hold him accountable.

Here's my question:

If you could pay Scola 1/3 of what Amare costs and then sign with that free cash, say a Carmelo Anthony, Paul Pierce type, wouldn't you do that over Amare?

Mavfan can answer too. I'd be interested in the response.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I think Al Jefferson can D it up. He played Duncan very well when the Spurs were matched up with Minnesota.


As far as offense is concerned, I think Amare can score very efficiently, but Al Jefferson has more low post moves than any other player in the league under the age of 30.

I also think at the end of their careers Al Jefferson > Amare.

Having said that, right now, yes, Amare > Al Jefferson

[stretch]

Here's my question:

If you could pay Scola 1/3 of what Amare costs and then sign with that free cash, say a Carmelo Anthony, Paul Pierce type, wouldn't you do that over Amare?

Mavfan can answer too. I'd be interested in the response.
Although I think you hate on Amare a little too much by saying you would take Scola first, that actually does make some sense from a GM standpoint. If I had a choice between Amare, or Scola/Pierce, give me the latter any day of the week.

[balli]

Exactly. I'm not saying Luis Scola is better than Amare at basketball. I'm saying as a matter of efficiency for the dollar you will get a lot more out of him. And really, isn't that how you win in the NBA? Efficiency?

[Findog]

Here's my question:

If you could pay Scola 1/3 of what Amare costs and then sign with that free cash, say a Carmelo Anthony, Paul Pierce type, wouldn't you do that over Amare?

Mavfan can answer too. I'd be interested in the response.

Yeah, I'd do that. I really don't want to build a team around guys like Amare if I don't have to. He's an amazing talent, but he's got the bad kind of ego, not the good kind of ego, and he strikes me as selfish. No true MVP candidate would ever whine to reporters about not winning the award. He's been in the league five years and he still hasn't bothered to work on his d. His offensive game has become more refined, he can more than just run the floor and dunk, but all that effort and hard work has gone towards maximizing his play at one end of the floor.

But I wouldn't take Scola over Amare straight up. That's going a bit too far in the hyperbole department.

[balli]

But I wouldn't take Scola over Amare straight up. That's going a bit too far in the hyperbole department.

Neither would I. But the difference in their salaries is what keeps it from being a straight up comparison.

[endrity]

Rankings:

1.Duncan
1b. Dirk
3. Garnett (how anyone, let alone Spurs fans, can argue that Garnett is better than Dirk at this point of their career is absurd. Not only did Dirk absolutely own Garnett in their only playoff encounter, but when did the Spurs ever change their defense for KG. There is a lot of overating that goes KG's way as well, A LOT!!!)
4. Brand, the healthy version
5. Bosh
6. Boozer
7. Gasol, eventhough he is more of a center.
8. Jefferson
9. Amare
10. Sheed (There is whole chapter to be written about this guy as well. Yes, it's ok to be unselfish but not to the point that you don't develop your game. And Sheed really has refused to work on his game. How come someone that is just as good as Dirk from 3, has barely any midrange shot at all, unless it's that little turnaround the right shoulder jumper from 5-8 feet. And when was the last time anyone saw him put the ball on the floor? It's a pity that with the athleticism he has, he has barely worked on his footwork since he came to the league. )

[stretch]

3. Garnett (how anyone, let alone Spurs fans, can argue that Garnett is better than Dirk at this point of their career is absurd. Not only did Dirk absolutely own Garnett in their only playoff encounter, but when did the Spurs ever change their defense for KG. There is a lot of overating that goes KG's way as well, A LOT!!!)
I couldn't agree more about KG. He is a very good player, but overrated. He is solid at everything, but doesn't really excel in anything, and no one is really scared of him when he gets the ball. In a close game, I am nearly shitting my pants when I see Duncan with the ball. Many non-Mavs fans say the same about Dirk. But I am NEVER scared of seeing KG score or create when he has the ball.

[JamStone]

When no one else rebounds the ball, and almost every game he has one of those times where he misses 2 or 3 putbacks to shoot his rebounding stat up in a quick spurt, then yes, his numbers will raise. Also, playing such a high tempo game with more shots, will lead to more missed shots, which also leads to more rebounds available to grab. In a San Antonio/Dallas pace, he would be lucky to average more than 6 boards a game.

When no one else rebounds the ball???? Shawn Marion is a career 10 rpg player. And, since joining the Suns, Shaq has averaged 10.6 rpg. 75% of Amare's rebounds are at the defensive end. That's right in line with other great rebounders, Duncan 73% of his rebounds are defensive rebounds, 76% for Dwight Howard, 77% for Marcus Camby, and 80% for Kevin Garnett. Stop with the tip drill argument. Amare is still a 9 rebound per game guy. Not elite, but more than sufficient for a big. And, newsflash, Dallas' pace, is not that much more deliberate than Phoenix' pace. Dallas' possessions per game are about 104. Phoenix at about 108 possessions per game. A mere 4 more possessions. Plus Amare plays 34.0 minutes per game. He's not a 40 mpg type of guy like Dwight Howard.



It has improved. Instead of airballing wide open 17 footers, he hits them, but still can't shoot if anyone is within 5 feet of him.

And there is more skill required to run a P&R if you have an average PG throwing passes for you. But in Nash's case, its just "set the pick and run" because he will get you the pass, or bust your ass with a 3. The issue with the P&R against Phoenix isn't about how you defend Amare. Its a "pick your poison" with Nash, because he will either thread a pass to Amare, or hit a jumper. Everyone knows that Nash is the focal point of the offense, P&R, everything for the Suns...

Nash is unbelievable. Again, you're criticizing Amare for having a great point guard. Nothing he can do about it.



No, but you do need to at least TRY to play defense, which Amare doesn't do.

And, that's why he's not as good as Duncan or KG. But, similar to Nash, just because he doesn't play great defense, it doesn't mean he's not a great player.

[JamStone]

The list was created to compare players to Amare. If you didn't realize that, then why the fuck are you wasting my time arguing with you, when you dont even know how to fuckin read?

If neither plays good defense, what does it matter that Al Jefferson plays slightly more? You still said he plays defense. He doesn't.



Some people have questioned him, plenty have defended. Of course Spurs fans here are going to question him an awful lot, but there are plenty people who defended him quite a bit as well, especially after this season, seeing that a lot of the faliures were not really his fault, but more so because of guys like Howard, Terry, and Stack fucking things up at the worst possible times. All you have to do is pull up a highlight reel of Dirk, and half of it will contain major clutch shots, game winners, etc... pull up a highlight reel of Amare, and what do you have? A shit load of alley-oops that he caught from Steve Nash. But hey! At least they win in the ratings championships if that makes anyone feel better.

I'm not talking about Spurs fans. Plenty of Mavs fans bitch about Dirk and his ability to be clutch. Where was the clutch performance against Golden State? When he waited until the fourth quarter of game 6 to hit a couple three pointers? What happened in the 2006 Finals? Where were his big shots then? He has been clutch exactly once in the playoffs, in 2006 against the Spurs. If you pull up a highlight reel of Dirk, 95% of those clutch shots happened in the regular season.



I really don't want to go into detail about Dirk and peoples blind haterism of him and the unfair bashing he has gone through, and prove what fucking retards his haters and the people that bring up those series truly are. All I will say is this... what big-time clutch plays has Amare ever really been a part of in the playoffs?

I don't hate Dirk. I like him as a player. I'm just saying he isn't that much better than Amare. And, since I don't have blind hate towards Amare and actually think he's a top 5 power forward, saying Dirk is slightly better than Amare means he's a top 4 power forward in the league, which I don't know how anyone could perceive as me hating Dirk.

As for Amare performing in the clutch, maybe in 2005 against the Spurs, when he averaged 37.0 ppg and 9.8 rpg on 55% shooting from the field?



Yes. Die. :dizzy

Predictable.

[Jack Sommersset]

Amare is a future Hall of Famer. He will win a ring. Should have won last year but was suspended for a BS rule. Everyone knows that. This guy is awesome. He also has been injured. Anyone who thinks this guy sucks is stupid. Overated..... I seldom here his name.. Hell, its Nash who won the MVP's not Amare. The guy is like 25. This might be the year he gets it.

[stretch]

When no one else rebounds the ball???? Shawn Marion is a career 10 rpg player. And, since joining the Suns, Shaq has averaged 10.6 rpg. 75% of Amare's rebounds are at the defensive end. That's right in line with other great rebounders, Duncan 73% of his rebounds are defensive rebounds, 76% for Dwight Howard, 77% for Marcus Camby, and 80% for Kevin Garnett. Stop with the tip drill argument. Amare is still a 9 rebound per game guy. Not elite, but more than sufficient for a big. And, newsflash, Dallas' pace, is not that much more deliberate than Phoenix' pace. Dallas' possessions per game are about 104. Phoenix at about 108 possessions per game. A mere 4 more possessions. Plus Amare plays 34.0 minutes per game. He's not a 40 mpg type of guy like Dwight Howard.

For a big "great superstar" player that you make him out to be? That's nothing too special. And don't bring Dirk into the situation, as he plays a very different style than Amare, because he is often out of the perimeter, not down low, and Dirk is without question still a better defensive rebounder than Amare.


Nash is unbelievable. Again, you're criticizing Amare for having a great point guard. Nothing he can do about it.

I'm not criticizing him for that. Plenty of great PF's and C's have had great PG's, but were very capable of creating for themselves. That's what I am criticizing him for.


And, that's why he's not as good as Duncan or KG. But, similar to Nash, just because he doesn't play great defense, it doesn't mean he's not a great player.

Nash attempts to play defense and hustle. Amare doesn't. Nash > Amare.

[balli]

I said it once and I'll say it again-

Amare is to Steve Nash what Kenyon Martin was to J-Kidd in 2003.

[JamStone]

Here's my question:

If you could pay Scola 1/3 of what Amare costs and then sign with that free cash, say a Carmelo Anthony, Paul Pierce type, wouldn't you do that over Amare?


If there are no financial constraints by the owner to stay under the luxury tax, it's not even close, you take Amare. In this league, post players that can score are not easy to come by. If you overpay, overpay the big guy.

You can get a solid point guard for less than max money. And, that's what you need for a big guy like Amare. Nash doesn't even make max money. A guy like Andre Miller, who is relatively cheap by NBA point guard standards, would be sufficient. Plus, athletic swing men that can create their own shot are much easier to find than post players that can score effectively down low.

How many teams that are built around a Carmelo Anthony or Paul Pierce type and only have role players at the big positions are true title contenders? Cleveland? Maybe Denver? The best teams have low post presence. They don't have two guys like Luis Scola down low.

If you can get a top 10 low post player, you take that over a top 10 swing player that can create his own shot.

[monosylab1k]

What happened in the 2006 Finals? Where were his big shots then? He has been clutch exactly once in the playoffs, in 2006 against the Spurs.
He dropped 50 on the Suns to crush their hopes, owned the Blazers in a Game 7, owned the Stockton/Malone Jazz with his tooth knocked out, and there was also the 06 Spurs series.

And in the Finals, he hit the gamewinner with Shaq right in his face in Game 5. It's not his fault Bennett Salvatore gave Wade a free trip to the line right at the end.

[endrity]

I'm not talking about Spurs fans. Plenty of Mavs fans bitch about Dirk and his ability to be clutch. Where was the clutch performance against Golden State? When he waited until the fourth quarter of game 6 to hit a couple three pointers? What happened in the 2006 Finals? Where were his big shots then? He has been clutch exactly once in the playoffs, in 2006 against the Spurs. If you pull up a highlight reel of Dirk, 95% of those clutch shots happened in the regular season.


If you really wanna criticize Dirk for the 2006 Finals, please find a way to watch games 5 and 6 again. I implore you. Because what you will see is a player making clutch play after clutch play, only to see those plays invalidated by someone hitting freethrows at the other end. Please watch those games again, and we will talk.
Dirk was pretty clutch against the Suns as well that year. And he was pretty clutch even during the Nash-era Mavs. He was the only player of those teams who constantly produced more in the playoffs. Check out his series against Utah, Minnesota, Sacramento, and SAS as well. An absolute beast.
And I am not even counting the countless clutch shots in the reg seasons.

Which leads us to GS! He played bad ok. First one to admit it. However two things that always get lost. First, no one outside Josh showed up in that series. Stack and Terry were abysmal. Yet often they are called our 'tough' guys. Second, Avery screwed up monumentally. He went small. He also failed to produce a single strategy to take advantage of Dirk being tripple teamed at times. All of our other players were standing around, waiting for Dirk to do something. That's on a coach, to execute a game plan. Yet Dirk is always the one to shoulder the blame.

For someone that is probably the best player to not win a ring yet, he is constantly blamed. Yet other players like Nash, KG are praised for a variety of ways. Neither has done more than Dirk in his career, and he is not done yet.

[endrity]

I said it once and I'll say it again-

Amare is to Steve Nash what Kenyon Martin was to J-Kidd in 2003.

A little better than Kenyon, but pretty much the same thing. Not Kenyon's fault either, but no way Kenyon should have even been an all-star and no way Amare can be considered an MVP candidate because he has Nash to feed him dunk after dunk.

[balli]

If there are no financial constraints by the owner to stay under the luxury tax, it's not even close, you take Amare. In this league, post players that can score are not easy to come by. If you overpay, overpay the big guy.

You can get a solid point guard for less than max money. And, that's what you need for a big guy like Amare. Nash doesn't even make max money. A guy like Andre Miller, who is relatively cheap by NBA point guard standards, would be sufficient. Plus, athletic swing men that can create their own shot are much easier to find than post players that can score effectively down low.

How many teams that are built around a Carmelo Anthony or Paul Pierce type and only have role players at the big positions are true title contenders? Cleveland? Maybe Denver? The best teams have low post presence. They don't have two guys like Luis Scola down low.

If you can get a top 10 low post player, you take that over a top 10 swing player that can create his own shot.

This is exactly the problem with Amare. He isn't even a top 100 low post player. Deron Williams is better in the low post than Amare Stoudamire. (albeit against pgs but still.) Amare does not have one, single, post-up move. Not one.

[monosylab1k]

Nash hasn't had anywhere near as many clutch moments in the playoffs as Dirk has, but somehow Nash is clutch and Dirk is a choker.

All those years in Dallas, Nash was the one getting abused in the playoffs and Dirk was the one coming up big.

Dirk has choked, yes, but to say he's had only one clutch moment in his entire playoff history is just ignorant and yet another example of JamStone not knowing what the hell he's talking about.

[stretch]

If neither plays good defense, what does it matter that Al Jefferson plays slightly more? You still said he plays defense. He doesn't.

He does.


I'm not talking about Spurs fans. Plenty of Mavs fans bitch about Dirk and his ability to be clutch. Where was the clutch performance against Golden State? When he waited until the fourth quarter of game 6 to hit a couple three pointers? What happened in the 2006 Finals? Where were his big shots then? He has been clutch exactly once in the playoffs, in 2006 against the Spurs. If you pull up a highlight reel of Dirk, 95% of those clutch shots happened in the regular season.

:wtf Recall the massive 50 point performance against the Suns? How about the dagger in game three against Memphis? Or the game winner the year before against Phoenix? The number of huge shots he hit against Sacramento and Portland? The shot that should have been a game winner in game 5 against the Heat, only to have it stolen away with one of the worst calls in NBA history. There are a lot of HUGE shots that Dirk hit that are very overlooked.


I don't hate Dirk. I like him as a player. I'm just saying he isn't that much better than Amare. And, since I don't have blind hate towards Amare and actually think he's a top 5 power forward, saying Dirk is slightly better than Amare means he's a top 4 power forward in the league, which I don't know how anyone could perceive as me hating Dirk.

I never said you hate Dirk. I was just talking about Dirk haters in general.


As for Amare performing in the clutch, maybe in 2005 against the Spurs, when he averaged 37.0 ppg and 9.8 rpg on 55% shooting from the field?

Uhmm... because no one really guarded him, and focused on shutting guys like Steve Nash and Joe Johnson down? Averaging huge numbers also does not make you a clutch player. Performing in the clutch does.


Predictable.

Yup.

[JamStone]

For a big "great superstar" player that you make him out to be? That's nothing too special. And don't bring Dirk into the situation, as he plays a very different style than Amare, because he is often out of the perimeter, not down low, and Dirk is without question still a better defensive rebounder than Amare.

Never claimed Amare was a "great superstar." I have been refuting the notion that he's somewhere in the middle of the league's power forwards. And, I didn't bring Dirk into the situation. Someone else mentioned him in this conversation stating he was better than Amare. I only said that he's not that much better than Amare. And, I didn't say Dirk wasn't the better defensive rebounder. Yes, Dirk is the slightly better defensive rebounder than Amare.



I'm not criticizing him for that. Plenty of great PF's and C's have had great PG's, but were very capable of creating for themselves. That's what I am criticizing him for.

You act like Amare is completely inept offensively without the pick-and-roll, which is inaccruate. That's evidenced by the improvement in his jump shot now that it forces defenses to play up on him, and while not great, he can drive past defenders. Also, he doesn't score completely from the pick-and-roll. He does post up. He's not Tim Duncan or Carlos Boozer, but he's capable. He's not great against double teams. But, he's often makes a move before the double comes.



Nash attempts to play defense and hustle. Amare doesn't. Nash > Amare.

When did Nash start attempting to play defense? Like the last 2 seasons? Amare is not great at defense. And, it's true he doesn't work that hard on it. He's getting better. Dirk didn't try at Amare's age either. Not every power forward can be Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett. Amare tries more than some of you give him credit for, but yes he's lacking at the defensive end. Probably 75% of the league doesn't really try at the defensive end.

[stretch]

I'm tired of arguing with you, so I will now give you 1 word responses to everything to save my time, and state the simple fact that a 2 paragraph response would give, ok?


You act like Amare is completely inept offensively without the pick-and-roll, which is inaccruate. That's evidenced by the improvement in his jump shot now that it forces defenses to play up on him, and while not great, he can drive past defenders. Also, he doesn't score completely from the pick-and-roll. He does post up. He's not Tim Duncan or Carlos Boozer, but he's capable. He's not great against double teams. But, he's often makes a move before the double comes.

Wrong.


When did Nash start attempting to play defense? Like the last 2 seasons? Amare is not great at defense. And, it's true he doesn't work that hard on it. He's getting better. Dirk didn't try at Amare's age either. Not every power forward can be Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett. Amare tries more than some of you give him credit for, but yes he's lacking at the defensive end. Probably 75% of the league doesn't really try at the defensive end.

Weak.

[endrity]

Look JamStone, it's this easy. During the game with the Mavs, he was often isolated against D.George, Howard, or Kidd. The Mavs did not bring a double, and the Suns waited to see him dominate these guys.

The result: Amare sucked! He had maybe 6 points in these situations. Other than that he missed a lot of shots, and actually airballed or did not touch rim on two jumpers when he tried to shoot over those guys.

Look at the 06 playoffs, when Diaw and Tim Thomas played the exact same position on the Suns system. Their productivity was very comparable to Amare's, as they both looked like surefire AllStars. In the Suns spread it out system, with Nash feeding you bunnies, any PF with skills will look better than what he really is.

I am not saying that Amare is a bad player, but he is overrated, which is the point of the thread. He is NOT a top 5 PF let alone player in this league.

You are usually a smart observer, but you are wrong here as well as on Dirk to a certain extent.

[JamStone]

:wtf Recall the massive 50 point performance against the Suns? How about the dagger in game three against Memphis? Or the game winner the year before against Phoenix? The number of huge shots he hit against Sacramento and Portland? The shot that should have been a game winner in game 5 against the Heat, only to have it stolen away with one of the worst calls in NBA history. There are a lot of HUGE shots that Dirk hit that are very overlooked.

Ok, except for any clutch shots against the Memphis Grizzlies. Those don't count. But, as you and some others have mentioned, I am apparently wrong about Dirk being clutch.

I am wrong.

Unfortunately, the most recent games and series are remembered most. With Dirk, it's the Golden State series that most people will recall.



I never said you hate Dirk. I was just talking about Dirk haters in general.

Well, your post was addressing one of my posts, so you can see how it would appear that you're calling me a Dirk hater.



Uhmm... because no one really guarded him, and focused on shutting guys like Steve Nash and Joe Johnson down? Averaging huge numbers also does not make you a clutch player. Performing in the clutch does.

Right, because Tim Duncan and Gregg Popovich were content with Amare dropping 35-40 points on them. Are you foreal???? They weren't trying to guard Amare? Uh ok. Those games were clutch performances in the playoffs against a great defensive team. To me, it's not just hitting game winning shots alone that makes a player clutch. Say a player goes 2-for-17 in an elimation game including 0-for-6 in the fourth quarter but on the final possession tips in the game winning shot. It's a clutch player, but that doesn't make that player clutch. Now another player can go 12-for-15 from the field but doesn't score in the final 4 minutes. But, he gets two key defensive rebounds in the final minute, sets a screen to free open his teammate for the game winning shot, and makes a key steal or block on the opposing team on the final possession. It's not making a last second game-winner, but that player played clutch.

[JamStone]

Look JamStone, it's this easy. During the game with the Mavs, he was often isolated against D.George, Howard, or Kidd. The Mavs did not bring a double, and the Suns waited to see him dominate these guys.

The result: Amare sucked! He had maybe 6 points in these situations. Other than that he missed a lot of shots, and actually airballed or did not touch rim on two jumpers when he tried to shoot over those guys.

Look at the 06 playoffs, when Diaw and Tim Thomas played the exact same position on the Suns system. Their productivity was very comparable to Amare's, as they both looked like surefire AllStars. In the Suns spread it out system, with Nash feeding you bunnies, any PF with skills will look better than what he really is.

I am not saying that Amare is a bad player, but he is overrated, which is the point of the thread. He is NOT a top 5 PF let alone player in this league.

You are usually a smart observer, but you are wrong here as well as on Dirk to a certain extent.

One poor game against the Mavs where he didn't adjust in the second half to a defense he wasn't used to. That's what a lot of people are basing their opinion on. I'm not saying Amare is flawless. He obviously has to work on his game, especially defensively. And, he has to improve against double teams. He's still a top 5 power forward in the league. I just disagree with anyone who thinks differently. Of course he doesn't have Tim Duncan caliber defense or post moves. No other power forward in the league does. But, Amare is good at what he does, and that is score off the pick-and-roll. Karl Malone made a legendary career out of it. And, that's what Amare is doing. He's making a career out of scoring from the pick-and-roll. And, if he is limited in the low post, so be it. If he's that limited, his ability to score 25 ppg on 58% shooting is that much more impressive. He has a great point guard and a system that fits his skills and abilities, and he's taking advantage of it.

[JamStone]

Steve Nash has missed 7 games the last two seasons with the Phoenix Suns. Amare played in all 7 of those games Nash missed. His stats are in those 7 games:

24.6 ppg
11.6 rpg
50% FG

[ElNono]

Rankings:

1.Duncan
1b. Dirk
3. Garnett (how anyone, let alone Spurs fans, can argue that Garnett is better than Dirk at this point of their career is absurd. Not only did Dirk absolutely own Garnett in their only playoff encounter, but when did the Spurs ever change their defense for KG. There is a lot of overating that goes KG's way as well, A LOT!!!)
4. Brand, the healthy version
5. Bosh
6. Boozer
7. Gasol, eventhough he is more of a center.
8. Jefferson
9. Amare
10. Sheed (There is whole chapter to be written about this guy as well. Yes, it's ok to be unselfish but not to the point that you don't develop your game. And Sheed really has refused to work on his game. How come someone that is just as good as Dirk from 3, has barely any midrange shot at all, unless it's that little turnaround the right shoulder jumper from 5-8 feet. And when was the last time anyone saw him put the ball on the floor? It's a pity that with the athleticism he has, he has barely worked on his footwork since he came to the league. )

I'm not even going to argue who is better between Garnett or Dirk.
Just want to point out that Dirk is NOT a post player.

[endrity]

^Neither is Amare or Bosh. And Boozer, Sheed, and Brand too spend most of the time facing the basket. I think we are well beyond the point where a PF is a smaller version of the center.

[Jack Sommersset]

I'm not even going to argue who is better between Garnett or Dirk.
Just want to point out that Dirk is NOT a post player.


I just want to point out Dirk can hit shots like 3's and has been to a championship. I'm not even going to argue who is better, just wanted to point that out.

[JamStone]

Rankings:

1.Duncan
1b. Dirk
3. Garnett (how anyone, let alone Spurs fans, can argue that Garnett is better than Dirk at this point of their career is absurd. Not only did Dirk absolutely own Garnett in their only playoff encounter, but when did the Spurs ever change their defense for KG. There is a lot of overating that goes KG's way as well, A LOT!!!)
4. Brand, the healthy version
5. Bosh
6. Boozer
7. Gasol, eventhough he is more of a center.
8. Jefferson
9. Amare
10. Sheed (There is whole chapter to be written about this guy as well. Yes, it's ok to be unselfish but not to the point that you don't develop your game. And Sheed really has refused to work on his game. How come someone that is just as good as Dirk from 3, has barely any midrange shot at all, unless it's that little turnaround the right shoulder jumper from 5-8 feet. And when was the last time anyone saw him put the ball on the floor? It's a pity that with the athleticism he has, he has barely worked on his footwork since he came to the league. )


Dirk is 1b???? 1b?????

Come on man. Your objectivity can't be that clouded. Now, all of a sudden, just because Dirk actually "tries" more at defense, it's enough to disregard the fact that he still is poor at the defensive end? All those criticisms about Amare not being a post player, and Dirk has little to no post game either. He's a face-up jump shooter who can dribble. He doesn't even post up when smaller guys are defending him.

KG plays defense. And, while he's not the explosive scorer Dirk is, he is capable of carrying the load offensively and is the better passer.

As for Rasheed, talent wise, he's probably around the top 5 in the league, maybe somewhere between 5-10 among power forwards. Overall, he's probably somewhere around a top 10 PF in the league, maybe higher or lower depending on your opinion. But, he plays above average defense. As for his midrange game, he's quite adept with the midrange jumper, especially from the baseline, not just with the short turn-around. The Pistons offense does not put Sheed in many situations to shoot midrange jumpers. He's pretty much either down low on the block or at the top of the key, as it helps with offensive spacing. And, I since when was the ability to put the ball on the floor so necessary for a power forward/center, especially one that is on a team that has three above average ball handlers on the team? Sheed rarely if ever needs to put the ball on the floor. When he touches the ball in the halfcourt set, it's either to shoot, make a post move, or make a pass. The offense doesn't require him to put the ball on the floor or go one-on-one. As for his footwork, his footwork is as good as any other power forward in the league after Duncan and maybe Boozer.

[JamStone]

^Neither is Amare or Bosh. And Boozer, Sheed, and Brand too spend most of the time facing the basket. I think we are well beyond the point where a PF is a smaller version of the center.

I think there's something to be said of having a versatile power forward who is capable of facing up and putting the ball on the floor. But, in Dirk's case, he has almost no post-up ability at all. It's one thing if a power forward doesn't post up much, but it's quite another if a player simply can't.

[Shank]

Yeah, Dirk sucks.

[endrity]

My criticism of Amare is that he can't create his own shot, not that he can't post up. And in that regards he is way behind some of the elite PFs of this game.

And Dirk's post up is ok, he has the turnaround mastered. The Warriors stopped him by swarming him, not by taking advantage of his lack of post up game. Ask Marion of Bowen if Dirk can't post up.

Dirk post defense is good man, I don't know how often you see people dominate him in the post like they do against Amare. He actually has played excellent defense at times against KG, J.O'Neal, Brand, Sheed (who got exited one game after scoring 20 points on him). He gets in trouble against quicker players, because of the fact that the Mavs switch a lot during pick and rolls. But I don't think anyone can expect him to constantly guard guys like that. The Mavs were in the top 10 defensively in the league, even top 5 at times, during the past 3 years. So I don't know how much of a liability he really is.

Honestly look at that ranking, and tell me anyone who has achieved more than Dirk. If you want me to just say that he is second, instead of 1b, fine. But no, KG is not better than Dirk. I have never seen KG take over games, and that is what the great stars in the league do. Dirk has done it countless times.

I don't wanna go too much into detail about Sheed, but having lived in Michigan for 4 years I have seen a lot of him. Rarely have I seen him shoot midrange shots. His footwork is terrible at times, he is very flat footed actually. The pistons always put Ben on the quicker frontcourt players. Not only is he outside Dirk's league when it comes to footwork/agility (who isn't when it comes to PFs?) but he is way beyond others. And that to me is the main reason that limits him. His creativity is limited, and that is why he can't just take over games like some of the other stars can, not because he is 'unselfish'. That is also true for KG man. His offensive repertoire is limited for a man considered to be a top 5 player in the league.

Anyway, this is an Amare thread, and I don't want to turn it into a total analysis of the PFs in the league.

[JamStone]

Yeah, Dirk sucks.


Dirk's great.

I just don't believe he's better than Kevin Garnett.

[endrity]

Dirk's great.

I just don't believe he's better than Kevin Garnett.

Yet he has achieved more than him throughout their careers. He also completely dominated him in their lone playoff encounter, and usually does pretty well anytime they meet.

[JamStone]

My criticism of Amare is that he can't create his own shot, not that he can't post up. And in that regards he is way behind some of the elite PFs of this game.

And Dirk's post up is ok, he has the turnaround mastered. The Warriors stopped him by swarming him, not by taking advantage of his lack of post up game. Ask Marion of Bowen if Dirk can't post up.

Dirk post defense is good man, I don't know how often you see people dominate him in the post like they do against Amare. He actually has played excellent defense at times against KG, J.O'Neal, Brand, Sheed (who got exited one game after scoring 20 points on him). He gets in trouble against quicker players, because of the fact that the Mavs switch a lot during pick and rolls. But I don't think anyone can expect him to constantly guard guys like that. The Mavs were in the top 10 defensively in the league, even top 5 at times, during the past 3 years. So I don't know how much of a liability he really is.

Honestly look at that ranking, and tell me anyone who has achieved more than Dirk. If you want me to just say that he is second, instead of 1b, fine. But no, KG is not better than Dirk. I have never seen KG take over games, and that is what the great stars in the league do. Dirk has done it countless times.

I don't wanna go too much into detail about Sheed, but having lived in Michigan for 4 years I have seen a lot of him. Rarely have I seen him shoot midrange shots. His footwork is terrible at times, he is very flat footed actually. The pistons always put Ben on the quicker frontcourt players. Not only is he outside Dirk's league when it comes to footwork/agility (who isn't when it comes to PFs?) but he is way beyond others. And that to me is the main reason that limits him. His creativity is limited, and that is why he can't just take over games like some of the other stars can, not because he is 'unselfish'. That is also true for KG man. His offensive repertoire is limited for a man considered to be a top 5 player in the league.

Anyway, this is an Amare thread, and I don't want to turn it into a total analysis of the PFs in the league.


It is an Amare thread, but I'll address a couple things...

-Rasheed doesn't shoot a lot of midrange jumpers. When he does, he shoots them rather effectively. Again, the offense does not put him in many situations to shoot midrange jumpers.

-Dirk's post defense might be adequate, but I wouldn't say it's "excellent." His size, length, and athleticism should allow him to be decent. Then again, post defense is not the only aspect of defense. Overall, I'd still classify him as a below average defender.

-Being creative offensively and being able to create your own shot and having a broad offensive repertoire is definitely a positive for a player to have. Those things alone are not enough to make a player greate. Otherwise a player like Jamal Crawford, who also hits clutch shots (just not in the playoffs because he hasn't really been in the playoffs), would be considered one of the great players in the league.

[endrity]

It is an Amare thread, but I'll address a couple things...

-Rasheed doesn't shoot a lot of midrange jumpers. When he does, he shoots them rather effectively. Again, the offense does not put him in many situations to shoot midrange jumpers.

-Dirk's post defense might be adequate, but I wouldn't say it's "excellent." His size, length, and athleticism should allow him to be decent. Then again, post defense is not the only aspect of defense. Overall, I'd still classify him as a below average defender.

-Being creative offensively and being able to create your own shot and having a broad offensive repertoire is definitely a positive for a player to have. Those things alone are not enough to make a player greate. Otherwise a player like Jamal Crawford, who also hits clutch shots (just not in the playoffs because he hasn't really been in the playoffs), would be considered one of the great players in the league.

Maybe Sheed doesn't shoot a lot of those jumpers because he can't put himself in a position to do so more often. Or just because he is good only when they are wide open. I don't think that any coach would underestimate such a part of his game if it was really that developed. I don't buy into the whole 'unselfish' argument totally.

I said I have seen Dirk play excellent defense at times, even against elite PF in the league. That is way more than I can say about Amare. Dirk is not a great defender, but a liability he is not. I don't think Dirk's defense has cost the team anything in these last two years.

It's certainly good to be creative offensively. And great players in this league need to have toolbox with more than one or two moves, in order to take games over. Crawford does it at times, not consistently, that's the thing. Sheed might have one or two big games, that's it. Dirk does it night in and night out, and that separates them, as well as Dirk from KG.

[stretch]

I'm not even going to argue who is better between Garnett or Dirk.
Just want to point out that Dirk is NOT a post player.
Neither is Garnett.

[stretch]

Dirk is 1b???? 1b?????

Come on man. Your objectivity can't be that clouded. Now, all of a sudden, just because Dirk actually "tries" more at defense, it's enough to disregard the fact that he still is poor at the defensive end? All those criticisms about Amare not being a post player, and Dirk has little to no post game either. He's a face-up jump shooter who can dribble. He doesn't even post up when smaller guys are defending him.

KG plays defense. And, while he's not the explosive scorer Dirk is, he is capable of carrying the load offensively and is the better passer.

As for Rasheed, talent wise, he's probably around the top 5 in the league, maybe somewhere between 5-10 among power forwards. Overall, he's probably somewhere around a top 10 PF in the league, maybe higher or lower depending on your opinion. But, he plays above average defense. As for his midrange game, he's quite adept with the midrange jumper, especially from the baseline, not just with the short turn-around. The Pistons offense does not put Sheed in many situations to shoot midrange jumpers. He's pretty much either down low on the block or at the top of the key, as it helps with offensive spacing. And, I since when was the ability to put the ball on the floor so necessary for a power forward/center, especially one that is on a team that has three above average ball handlers on the team? Sheed rarely if ever needs to put the ball on the floor. When he touches the ball in the halfcourt set, it's either to shoot, make a post move, or make a pass. The offense doesn't require him to put the ball on the floor or go one-on-one. As for his footwork, his footwork is as good as any other power forward in the league after Duncan and maybe Boozer.

I'm sick of debating the Dirk vs. KG crap. Dirk > KG. End of that story.

As for Sheed... IMO, Rasheed is arguably the most talented PF in NBA history. He can play both the 4 and 5. Athletic. Incredible shooting range. Fantastic post ability. Very strong defender. Smart. Good passer. The guy had the whole package, but was never really committed to developing into what he could have been. IMO, he had a mix between Duncan and Dirk abilities. But didn't quite have the determination and work ethic of either to become the best player he could be, like they do.

[endrity]

When a 23 year old Dirk, dominated a in his peak 26 year old KG with a very good Minny team in 2002 it should have ended this conversation once and for all. Yet the stereotypes that affect both players (good ones for KG, bad ones for Dirk) completely shadow their history.

[JamStone]

Uh coaches will generally coach to the strengths of a player. It's why you don't see Dirk in the low post with his back to the basket much at all. Rasheed can shoot a midrange jumper. Because it's better for the team to have him on the low block or out at the top of the key for spacing when Billups or Prince is posting up, Sheed doesn't shoot many midrange jumpers. It's not his strength. He is definitely capable.

I wouldn't call Dirk a liability necessarily either. But, if a player is below average, then he's below average. And, as with many things in the game, just because a player doesn't do something defensively to cost the game in the final moments, it doesn't mean the poor defense throughout the game didn't play a factor in costing a game.

Hitting clutch shots is an extremely valuable aspect of a player's game. Don't get me wrong. It's very, very important. But, it's not the only factor in evaluating how good a player is. Plus, being clutch can also mean also making a clutch defensive play or stop, making the game-winning assist or setting a game winning screen for an open shot, or getting a game changing rebound. If you want to use making clutch shots as one of the main reasons evaluating players, you could argue a guy like Carlos Boozer is better than Dirk, KG, and Duncan.

[stretch]

If you want to use making clutch shots as one of the main reasons evaluating players, you could argue a guy like Carlos Boozer is better than Dirk, KG, and Duncan.
Argue it.

[endrity]

^Exactly, with his touch and skill Sheed shouldn't be far away from Dirk in the mid range shooting abilities. Yet he clearely hasn't worked on that aspect of the game. He is capable, but it SHOULD be a strength of his.

I have said all I can say about the other stuff, but Boozer has not hit the clutch shots that Dirk or Duncan have. Not even close. Dirk has missed a couple, which a media which never liked him much decided to show over and over again as if MJ never missed shots like that. But he has been hit numerous big shots for the Mavs. Boozer had one good run in the playoffs. Yet the Jazz continue to be a middle of the way team in the West, and I don't see this group ever becoming a dominant team. Regardless, that's it for this argument from me.

Dirk > KG, because history says so.

[JamStone]

I'm sick of debating the Dirk vs. KG crap. Dirk > KG. End of that story.


Just quick question then.

Should Chris Webber be considered the better player than Dirk Nowitzki?

[JamStone]

Argue it.

This season in the clutch, Carlos Boozer shoots 57.7% from the field.

Dirk 42.3%.

Garnett 41.0%.

Duncan 52.6%.

http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM


Sometimes people misconstrue "clutch" shots as only game-winning or game-tying attempts in the final seconds of a game. You can be clutch before that as well. Being up 3 points with less than a minute and hitting a big jumper to make it a 5 point game, and it never gets to a last second shot. Hitting back-to-back three pointers with two minutes left in the game to go from down 2 points to up 4 points and again not allowing it to get to a last second shot.

[endrity]

Just quick question then.

Should Chris Webber be considered the better player than Dirk Nowitzki?

How so? MVP, Finals, consitently leading his team into the playoffs. Memorable games while being there. Dirk has it all over Webber. He also owned him at times during their matchups in the playoffs. However the one matchup that decided those series was Bibby v. Nash, anytime one was better than the other his team advanced. Any Mavs or Kings fan will tell you that, and Bibby usually beat Nash. That is why the Kings were 2-1 in series during those years. It's the reason Nash was let go after 04, when only Dirk showed up from the Mavs in that series. Check the boxscores if you don't believe me.

[endrity]

This season in the clutch, Carlos Boozer shoots 57.7% from the field.

Dirk 42.3%.

Garnett 41.0%.

Duncan 52.6%.

http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM


Sometimes people misconstrue "clutch" shots as only game-winning or game-tying attempts in the final seconds of a game. You can be clutch before that as well. Being up 3 points with less than a minute and hitting a big jumper to make it a 5 point game, and it never gets to a last second shot. Hitting back-to-back three pointers with two minutes left in the game to go from down 2 points to up 4 points and again not allowing it to get to a last second shot.

I see Dirk as 3rd on that list, while also being great from the stripe and also hitting 3pt field goals. And he has been there for a couple of years, I know 82games has it somewhere. If anything you should show this list to people who think Dirk is not clutch.

[stretch]

This season in the clutch, Carlos Boozer shoots 57.7% from the field.

Dirk 42.3%.

Garnett 41.0%.

Duncan 52.6%.

http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM


Sometimes people misconstrue "clutch" shots as only game-winning or game-tying attempts in the final seconds of a game. You can be clutch before that as well. Being up 3 points with less than a minute and hitting a big jumper to make it a 5 point game, and it never gets to a last second shot. Hitting back-to-back three pointers with two minutes left in the game to go from down 2 points to up 4 points and again not allowing it to get to a last second shot.
Bad argument. Using that stat then means you have to make a case for Stackhouse and Josh Howard being more clutch than Kobe Bryant. Or even Boozer being more clutch than Kobe Bryant.

Look at all the stats, as you can see that Boozer has a massive 75% of them assisted to him. And you know that those assisted shots are just dunks and layups.

[JamStone]

How so? MVP, Finals, consitently leading his team into the playoffs. Memorable games while being there. Dirk has it all over Webber. He also owned him at times during their matchups in the playoffs. However the one matchup that decided those series was Bibby v. Nash, anytime one was better than the other his team advanced. Any Mavs or Kings fan will tell you that, and Bibby usually beat Nash. That is why the Kings were 2-1 in series during those years. It's the reason Nash was let go after 04, when only Dirk showed up from the Mavs in that series. Check the boxscores if you don't believe me.

Webber played better overall in both the 2004 and 2002 series between the two teams. Dirk had one or two very good games in each of those series. Webber's team won both those series. The only time Dirk and the Mavs beat the Kings was in 2003 when Webber only played in two games because he was injured. Webber outplayed Dirk for the most part in those two series.

[ElNono]

Post players (ie: players that will post other players in the low post and have actual post moves), listed in no particular order:

- Tim Duncan
- Shaq
- Kevin Garnett
- Elton Brand
- Chris Bosh
- Carlos Boozer
- Pau Gasol
- Al Jefferson
- Rasheed Wallace

And I'm probably missing a guy or two.

Dirk receives in the low post, normally on the right side. Then he either:
a) shoots a fadeaway above the defender
b) drives to the basket looking for contact for an and1

This is no knock on Dirk. He's successful with that type of play.
As Findog noted many times, he's a SG with the body of PF.

But if you noticed the last 8 championships or so, the champion has always played an inside-out game. With an actual PF or C playing the post, and dishing out when the defense collapses.

[stretch]

Post players (ie: players that will post other players in the low post and have actual post moves), listed in no particular order:

- Tim Duncan
- Shaq
- Kevin Garnett
- Elton Brand
- Chris Bosh
- Carlos Boozer
- Pau Gasol
- Al Jefferson
- Rasheed Wallace

And I'm probably missing a guy or two.

Dirk receives in the low post, normally on the right side. Then he either:
a) shoots a fadeaway above the defender
b) drives to the basket looking for contact for an and1

This is no knock on Dirk. He's successful with that type of play.
As Findog noted many times, he's a SG with the body of PF.

But if you noticed the last 8 championships or so, the champion has always played an inside-out game. With an actual PF or C playing the post, and dishing out when the defense collapses.
Kevin Garnett IS NOT A POST PLAYER.

Watch the motherfucker play. The vast majority of his shots are turnaround 10 foot jumpers. His other points are garbage points, such as putback dunks. But he does NOT have a great post up game at all. Even Minny and Boston fans will tell you that you can not just rely on him to post someone up and consistently score with it. It usually ends up being a 10-15 foot turnaround.

[monosylab1k]

Dirk usually gets the ball in the high post, not the low post.

[JamStone]

I see Dirk as 3rd on that list, while also being great from the stripe and also hitting 3pt field goals. And he has been there for a couple of years, I know 82games has it somewhere. If anything you should show this list to people who think Dirk is not clutch.

Third in points per, fifth in attempts. Wayyyyyyy down the list in actual field goal percentage in those attempts. Isn't it about actually hitting those clutch shots as opposed to volume shooting?



Bad argument. Using that stat then means you have to make a case for Stackhouse and Josh Howard being more clutch than Kobe Bryant. Or even Boozer being more clutch than Kobe Bryant.

It was a counter-point to show that it's not just about making game-winning shots to be clutch. That's why I said if you just look at clutch shooting, you could argue Boozer is better. I don't actually believe that. Just like I don't believe just because a particular player hits a couple game winning shots, it doesn't automatically mean he's "clutch."

[stretch]

Webber played better overall in both the 2004 and 2002 series between the two teams. Dirk had one or two very good games in each of those series. Webber's team won both those series. The only time Dirk and the Mavs beat the Kings was in 2003 when Webber only played in two games because he was injured. Webber outplayed Dirk for the most part in those two series.
Actually Webber did not outplay Dirk AT ALL in the 2004 series. Of course, you wouldn't know this, because you didn't actually take the time to research this before posting. You likely didn't watch the series either.

They were pretty much dead even in the 2002 series in terms of production. Like the other poster said... the difference in each of those series had nothing to do with Dirk and Webber. It was the way that Nash was getting completely fucking owned by Bibby.

You really need to research your shit before posting.

[endrity]

Webber played better overall in both the 2004 and 2002 series between the two teams. Dirk had one or two very good games in each of those series. Webber's team won both those series. The only time Dirk and the Mavs beat the Kings was in 2003 when Webber only played in two games because he was injured. Webber outplayed Dirk for the most part in those two series.

Sorry JamStone, but major fuckup here. If you remember correctly, 04 was the season that Webber came back too early, and completely messed up the Kings and especially the MVP year that Peja was having. He was marginal at best during the 04 series. Dirk had a great series, yet Nash was drilled over and over again by Bibby. Same case in 02, and Dirk and Webber basically canceled each other out that year. Actually I think Keon Clark was the one that made the key plays in that series in games 3 and 4. And even before Webber got injured at the end of game 2 in 03, Dirk had spent the whole game abusing him every possible way.

[ElNono]

Dirk usually gets the ball in the high post, not the low post.

When they run the pick & roll at the top of the key, yes, he gets it at the high post (You guys burned us with that play in 2006). I was pointing out the other play, when Dirk starts at the baseline and moves to the low post. Point Guard passes to shooting guard, then pass to Dirk in the low post. It's the closest I can think Dirk attempting to post up a player...

[stretch]

Third in points per, fifth in attempts. Wayyyyyyy down the list in actual field goal percentage in those attempts. Isn't it about actually hitting those clutch shots as opposed to volume shooting?




It was a counter-point to show that it's not just about making game-winning shots to be clutch. That's why I said if you just look at clutch shooting, you could argue Boozer is better. I don't actually believe that. Just like I don't believe just because a particular player hits a couple game winning shots, it doesn't automatically mean he's "clutch."
Dirk doesn't only hit game winners. He hits all kinds of big shots for his team. Just recently he has had a number of games doing that, such as yesterday in Phoenix. No game winners, but a bunch of HUGE timely shots. He did it in pretty much all 3 games we lost to LA, hitting HUGE shots, even sending one game to OT with a guy right in his grill.

Dirk has consistently been a big time clutch player for the Mavericks. You don't watch the Mavericks nearly as much as I do, so I don't see how you can act as if you know just as much, or more about my team and the players I watch almost every single game of.

[Cry Havoc]

Based on the arguments of Mavs fans in this thread, Baron Davis >>> Dirk, since we all know what happened last year.

Also, ranking Dirk = to Duncan is absolutely ludicrous. You're saying Dirk is equal to the best PF in NBA history.

Earth to Mavs fan, you're approaching the Bill Walton level of homerism.

[endrity]

When they run the pick & roll at the top of the key, yes, he gets it at the high post (You guys burned us with that play in 2006). I was pointing out the other play, when Dirk starts at the baseline and moves to the low post. Point Guard passes to shooting guard, then pass to Dirk in the low post. It's the closest I can think Dirk attempting to post up a player...

Ok, but the thread was about PFs and not low post players. Many of the elite PFs in the league are face the basket players. As Stretch said, KG is well into that group. Tell me when have you ever seen KG dominate someone in the post. It would be the first time I see it.

[endrity]

Based on the arguments of Mavs fans in this thread, Baron Davis >>> Dirk, since we all know what happened last year.

Also, ranking Dirk = to Duncan is absolutely ludicrous. You're saying Dirk is equal to the best PF in NBA history.

Earth to Mavs fan, you're approaching the Bill Walton level of homerism.

No, since Baron had one great series, while Dirk has one great CAREER. Plus how fair is it to compare two players that are completely different positions.

Also, Duncan is the best PF in the history of the game. No argument whatsoever here. But right now, Dirk is not that far behind as a player. Just last year, before the GS series, people were saying that Dirk had become the most complete offensive player in the game, or 2nd behind Kobe. Sorry, but one bad series which was not his fault, will not cancel that. I really think that Dirk has a great chance to be top 5 all time at the PF position, especially if he wins a ring which he still has time to. He already was considered 8-9 two or three seasons ago in a major poll on ESPN by all their writers. That is before he blossomed as the player he is now. Therefore saying that Dirk is just behind Duncan as a PF right now in the league is not that far fetched.

[stretch]

No, since Baron had one great series, while Dirk has one great CAREER. Plus how fair is it to compare two players that are completely different positions.

Also, Duncan is the best PF in the history of the game. No argument whatsoever here. But right now, Dirk is not that far behind as a player. Just last year, before the GS series, people were saying that Dirk had become the most complete offensive player in the game, or 2nd behind Kobe. Sorry, but one bad series which was not his fault, will not cancel that. I really think that Dirk has a great chance to be top 5 all time at the PF position, especially if he wins a ring which he still has time to. He already was considered 8-9 two or three seasons ago in a major poll on ESPN by all their writers. That is before he blossomed as the player he is now. Therefore saying that Dirk is just behind Duncan as a PF right now in the league is not that far fetched.

Don't care what anyone says... when it is all said and done, Dirk will go down as a top 5 PF of all time, and ahead of KG.

[monosylab1k]

Based on the arguments of Mavs fans in this thread, Baron Davis >>> Dirk, since we all know what happened last year.

Also, ranking Dirk = to Duncan is absolutely ludicrous. You're saying Dirk is equal to the best PF in NBA history.

Earth to Mavs fan, you're approaching the Bill Walton level of homerism.
you didn't bother to read the thread :wakeup

[ElNono]

No, since Baron had one great series, while Dirk has one great CAREER. Plus how fair is it to compare two players that are completely different positions.

Also, Duncan is the best PF in the history of the game. No argument whatsoever here. But right now, Dirk is not that far behind as a player. Just last year, before the GS series, people were saying that Dirk had become the most complete offensive player in the game, or 2nd behind Kobe. Sorry, but one bad series which was not his fault, will not cancel that. I really think that Dirk has a great chance to be top 5 all time at the PF position, especially if he wins a ring which he still has time to. He already was considered 8-9 two or three seasons ago in a major poll on ESPN by all their writers. That is before he blossomed as the player he is now. Therefore saying that Dirk is just behind Duncan as a PF right now in the league is not that far fetched.

Please. Everyone jumped on the Dirk bandwagon when the Mavs won 67 last year, and were just as quick to jump from it with the historical loss to the GSW.

The true great players play both sides of the floor. Dirk is a great offensive player, but defensively leaves a lot to be desired, *especially* for a 7 footer. I mean, even if you don't like Garnett's offensive game, the guy can and will alter shots defensively. Now, if you're comparing Dirk's D to Amare's D, then by all means, Dirk is the vastly superior defender (Amare can't guard anybody).

[monosylab1k]

Sorry JamStone, but major fuckup here. If you remember correctly, 04 was the season that Webber came back too early, and completely messed up the Kings and especially the MVP year that Peja was having. He was marginal at best during the 04 series. Dirk had a great series, yet Nash was drilled over and over again by Bibby. Same case in 02, and Dirk and Webber basically canceled each other out that year. Actually I think Keon Clark was the one that made the key plays in that series in games 3 and 4. And even before Webber got injured at the end of game 2 in 03, Dirk had spent the whole game abusing him every possible way.
Let's also not forget that Don Nelson was relying on two rookies to play heavy minutes that series.

[endrity]

Don't care what anyone says... when it is all said and done, Dirk will go down as a top 5 PF of all time, and ahead of KG.

Not with the current way the media treats them. Plus if KG ever has a chance to greatly enhance his legacy it's now, in this incredibly weak East while Dallas has to play in the ever better West.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I would actually take KG over Dirk.

While that might annoy some Mav fans, I just think KG is the better overall player when all is said and done.


I think his 1 on 1 defense may be somewhat overrated, but when it comes to team defense he can solidify the front line. Boston's improvement on defense didn't happen by accident, but I also don't think it means that KG is Ben Wallace on steroids.

I will say that the assumption of Dirk being a "choker" is beyond ridiculous. I think KG sucks way more in the clutch than Dirk does. The only player in the entire league who I worry about more with the ball in his hands and less than 30 seconds left in the game is Kobe Bryant. I think Dirk's issues in crunch time have a lot more to do with him not making very smart decisions or being somewhat tedious with the ball. I think the Celtics game where Dirk went AWAY from Garnett on the drive to the hoop is a good example.

While I would take KG over Dirk when picking a team from scratch, (it really comes down to KG affecting both sides of the ball, whereas Dirk heavily affects one side of the ball) I do think when both of their respective careers are over, should KG still be ringless, it wouldn't surprise me to see Dirk leapfrog him in the PF discussions.

[endrity]

Please. Everyone jumped on the Dirk bandwagon when the Mavs won 67 last year, and were just as quick to jump from it with the historical loss to the GSW.

The true great players play both sides of the floor. Dirk is a great offensive player, but defensively leaves a lot to be desired, *especially* for a 7 footer. I mean, even if you don't like Garnett's offensive game, the guy can and will alter shots defensively. Now, if you're comparing Dirk's D to Amare's D, then by all means, Dirk is the vastly superior defender (Amare can't guard anybody).

Dirk was 3 in the MVP voting in 05 and 06, as well as everyone absolutely drooling over him in the 06 playoffs, including Mav sceptic Bill Simmons. BS actually said during the playoffs that he had become the most complete forward since Bird. This is big stuff from a Celtic die hard. I'd say his bandwagon was getting full way before 07. And the guys who were the first to like him during those years, like Stein or Hollinger, are still big supporters of him.

Malone and Barkley, largely considered the 2nd and 3rd best PFs of all times were pretty mediocre defenders too. Dirk isn't much behind them, and if he ever wins a ring he has every right to claim to have a better career than those guys.

Also, this myth that great players are both on both sides has to stop. Magic was mediocre as well as Bird, and I already said so about Barkley and Malone. Not everyone is Jordan, Hakeem or Duncan.

[monosylab1k]

I can't argue Dirk is better than KG because I was campaigning for a KG-Dirk trade. I love KG's game and I think his intensity could have really helped around here.

But if we're talking about which guy is more clutch, Dirk >>>>>>>>>>>>> KG. It's not even close.

[DaDakota]

Amare is like David west in a sense, they are good player, but are a product of playing with a great PG.....

If you take away Nash or CP3, both Amare and West would have a significant drop off in stats.

Dirk on the other hand would still get his, as would KG.......they can create their own.....

DD

[endrity]

I would actually take KG over Dirk.

While that might annoy some Mav fans, I just think KG is the better overall player when all is said and done.


I think his 1 on 1 defense may be somewhat overrated, but when it comes to team defense he can solidify the front line. Boston's improvement on defense didn't happen by accident, but I also don't think it means that KG is Ben Wallace on steroids.

I will say that the assumption of Dirk being a "choker" is beyond ridiculous. I think KG sucks way more in the clutch than Dirk does. The only player in the entire league who I worry about more with the ball in his hands and less than 30 seconds left in the game is Kobe Bryant. I think Dirk's issues in crunch time have a lot more to do with him not making very smart decisions or being somewhat tedious with the ball. I think the Celtics game where Dirk went AWAY from Garnett on the drive to the hoop is a good example.

While I would take KG over Dirk when picking a team from scratch, (it really comes down to KG affecting both sides of the ball, whereas Dirk heavily affects one side of the ball) I do think when both of their respective careers are over, should KG still be ringless, it wouldn't surprise me to see Dirk leapfrog him in the PF discussions.

:toast
I still disagree, I think the amount of pressure Dirk puts on a defense is beyond anything KG can achieve, and that is what separates the really great players. Plus by any way of measuring statistical effectivness (such as PER, Wages of Wins etc), which has been KG's stronghold during the years, Dirk has been either just behind and actually passed him in the recent years.

[JamStone]

Actually Webber did not outplay Dirk AT ALL in the 2004 series. Of course, you wouldn't know this, because you didn't actually take the time to research this before posting. You likely didn't watch the series either.

They were pretty much dead even in the 2002 series in terms of production. Like the other poster said... the difference in each of those series had nothing to do with Dirk and Webber. It was the way that Nash was getting completely fucking owned by Bibby.

You really need to research your shit before posting.


I actually did watch all three of those series, and that's why I brought it up. I have followed Chris Webber's career pretty closely, and followed the Kings when he was with Sacramento. I didn't look up the stats because it's my recollection that Webber outplayed Nowitzki. And, remember, scoring more points than another player doesn't automatically mean that player outplayed the other. Webber pretty much scored when he had to but the offense also ran through him and he racked up plenty of assists. Back then, Nowitzki wasn't a play maker in the sense of creating shots for teammates. Webber was. Webber scored, got assists, and rebounded. Dirk scored. I remember pretty well Webber scoring at will in those series, plus creating a lot of shot opportunities for teammates. Now, I also know Webber wasn't good at defense, as neither was Dirk. So, neither had a huge impact defensively. I didn't need to go look up the numbers before posting what I did because I watched those series.

[monosylab1k]

Webber scored, got assists, and rebounded. Dirk scored.
Your recollection of Dirk's rebounding numbers is wrong.

[Xylus]

Without Nash, Stoudemire's FG% would drop, but he'd still average about the same amount of points with higher minutes. I read a stat a few weeks ago that Stoudemire was recording one of the highest PPP-Points Per Possession in NBA history. I don't know if this is true, or how to tally this stat, but it's interesting nonetheless.

My thoughts about Amare Stoudemire are well-known, so I'm going to stay out of this discussion. Besides, I have work in a few minutes.

[ElNono]

Dirk was 3 in the MVP voting in 05 and 06, as well as everyone absolutely drooling over him in the 06 playoffs, including Mav sceptic Bill Simmons. BS actually said during the playoffs that he had become the most complete forward since Bird. This is big stuff from a Celtic die hard. I'd say his bandwagon was getting full way before 07. And the guys who were the first to like him during those years, like Stein or Hollinger, are still big supporters of him.

Who cares about MVP voting? That's the most stupid stat in the league. I mean, Kobe haven't even won an MVP yet? Duncan only has two, even though he won 4 championships? When awards get picked by the media all that it tells me is how much a player is being overhyped.


Malone and Barkley, largely considered the 2nd and 3rd best PFs of all times were pretty mediocre defenders too. Dirk isn't much behind them, and if he ever wins a ring he has every right to claim to have a better career than those guys.

Also, this myth that great players are both on both sides has to stop. Magic was mediocre as well as Bird, and I already said so about Barkley and Malone. Not everyone is Jordan, Hakeem or Duncan.

You should listen to Barkey one of this days. When he says 'Defense wins championships' he really means it. He had to retire ringless for no other reason.

[endrity]

I actually did watch all three of those series, and that's why I brought it up. I have followed Chris Webber's career pretty closely, and followed the Kings when he was with Sacramento. I didn't look up the stats because it's my recollection that Webber outplayed Nowitzki. And, remember, scoring more points than another player doesn't automatically mean that player outplayed the other. Webber pretty much scored when he had to but the offense also ran through him and he racked up plenty of assists. Back then, Nowitzki wasn't a play maker in the sense of creating shots for teammates. Webber was. Webber scored, got assists, and rebounded. Dirk scored. I remember pretty well Webber scoring at will in those series, plus creating a lot of shot opportunities for teammates. Now, I also know Webber wasn't good at defense, as neither was Dirk. So, neither had a huge impact defensively. I didn't need to go look up the numbers before posting what I did because I watched those series.

Yes. Dirk rebounded a lot man. And in 04 Webber was gone, and barely played in 03. So you are basing your views on the 02 series.

Also don't forget that you are talking about a 22-24 year old Dirk against a 29-31 year old Webber. With KG, both players were almost the same age, with KG actually being a little older and pretty much at the greatest level he would ever achieve. Yet Dirk completely abused him.

[ElNono]

And FWIW, I do agree Amare would be nobody without Nash. I think the rule applies just as well with the combo of Stockton-Malone. He is who he is because of Nash. And Nash looks awesome because he has somebody like Amare that can finish all that he creates. Otherwise, Nash would look like the old Mavs Nash, and Amare would look like the Bobcat's Wallace (standout hyper athletic offensive player).

[JamStone]

Dirk doesn't only hit game winners. He hits all kinds of big shots for his team. Just recently he has had a number of games doing that, such as yesterday in Phoenix. No game winners, but a bunch of HUGE timely shots. He did it in pretty much all 3 games we lost to LA, hitting HUGE shots, even sending one game to OT with a guy right in his grill.

Dirk has consistently been a big time clutch player for the Mavericks. You don't watch the Mavericks nearly as much as I do, so I don't see how you can act as if you know just as much, or more about my team and the players I watch almost every single game of.


All of this was tangental to my original point that you responded to.

I stated how if you just go by "clutch" shots, one could argue Boozer is better than Dirk, Garnett, and Duncan. I didn't make that statement because I believe that. I made that statement to argue against the fact that hitting clutch shots is the only way a player can be labeled "clutch."

And, that's why when you said it was a bad argument, I didn't argue that. That was my point. It's more than just hitting shots in the closing minutes of a game that makes a player "clutch." And, I'm not arguing I know more about Dirk than you or any Mavs fan. I'm giving you my opinion. Just like many Mavs fans give their opinion about Amare even though they don't watch as many Suns games as Suns fans. It's just an opinion. Same as Mavs fans telling me about Rasheed's capabilities and limitations when I've watched somewhere around 90% of the Pistons games since he's been in Detroit.

Whether or not you watch every Mavs game, you're a Mavs fan, and your opinion about Dirk and even Amare isn't exactly objective. So, your opinion on these things isn't exactly impartial anyway.

[endrity]

Who cares about MVP voting? That's the most stupid stat in the league. I mean, Kobe haven't even won an MVP yet? Duncan only has two, even though he won 4 championships? When awards get picked by the media all that it tells me is how much a player is being overhyped.



You should listen to Barkey one of this days. When he says 'Defense wins championships' he really means it. He had to retire ringless for no other reason.

I used the MVP argument to say that his bandwagon was getting full way before 07. He was already being recognized as a top 5 player during the 05 season.

Yet Barkley never played defense, and is arguably considered the 3rd best PF of all time. That certainly doesn't make Dirk look like an outsider to the best PFs list.

[stretch]

I actually did watch all three of those series, and that's why I brought it up. I have followed Chris Webber's career pretty closely, and followed the Kings when he was with Sacramento. I didn't look up the stats because it's my recollection that Webber outplayed Nowitzki. And, remember, scoring more points than another player doesn't automatically mean that player outplayed the other. Webber pretty much scored when he had to but the offense also ran through him and he racked up plenty of assists. Back then, Nowitzki wasn't a play maker in the sense of creating shots for teammates. Webber was. Webber scored, got assists, and rebounded. Dirk scored. I remember pretty well Webber scoring at will in those series, plus creating a lot of shot opportunities for teammates. Now, I also know Webber wasn't good at defense, as neither was Dirk. So, neither had a huge impact defensively. I didn't need to go look up the numbers before posting what I did because I watched those series.

Dirk may not have had the assist numbers, but his rebounding numbers were actually quite good, if not better than Webbers. Go back and look. Dirk has always been an underrated rebounder, especially in the playoffs, where he always averages around 11-13 boards a game.

And again, if you watches those series, you would not even have brought Webber into the discussion, because those series were decided by the play of Bibby and Nash.

[JamStone]

Yes. Dirk rebounded a lot man. And in 04 Webber was gone, and barely played in 03. So you are basing your views on the 02 series.

Injured most of the year, Webber came back with like 20 games left in the regular season and played in all 12 Kings playoff games that post season, averaging about 37 mpg in those playoff games.



Also don't forget that you are talking about a 22-24 year old Dirk against a 29-31 year old Webber. With KG, both players were almost the same age, with KG actually being a little older and pretty much at the greatest level he would ever achieve. Yet Dirk completely abused him.

Good point. Didn't Garnett also average something like 20 ppg and 20 rpg in that three game series? Dirk may have scored at will, but wasn't KG still putting up huge numbers himself?

edit: KG put up 24 ppg and 18.7 rpg in that series.

[JamStone]

Dirk may not have had the assist numbers, but his rebounding numbers were actually quite good, if not better than Webbers. Go back and look. Dirk has always been an underrated rebounder, especially in the playoffs, where he always averages around 11-13 boards a game.

And again, if you watches those series, you would not even have brought Webber into the discussion, because those series were decided by the play of Bibby and Nash.


Don't feel like going through each of those games to look at the numbers. But, I'll take your word for it on Dirk's rebounding. As I said, Webber gave scoring, rebounding, and the offense ran through him to allow him to rack up assists while Dirk scored and rebounded. And, it just wasn't Bibby. I remember several games Chris put it on Dirk in those two series and ultimately the Kings won those series.

[endrity]

Same as Mavs fans telling me about Rasheed's capabilities and limitations when I've watched somewhere around 90% of the Pistons games since he's been in Detroit.

Whether or not you watch every Mavs game, you're a Mavs fan, and your opinion about Dirk and even Amare isn't exactly objective. So, your opinion on these things isn't exactly impartial anyway.

As I told you man, I lived in Michigan for the past 4 years. I have seen more Pistons than Mavs throughout that period, since most of these pirate links became available only about 2 seasons ago. If there is one team that I can speak of pretty well outside of the Mavs it's the Pistons.

I just said something which most Pistons fans don't like to hear, that's all. I can go further too, as for example that Rip and Chauncey was the real hero of the 04 championship. Yet, Chauncey is Mr.Big Shot and he took most of the credit. However he is probably the one player you can blame both the 06 and 07 meltdowns. But again, as a Piston fan you wouldn't like hearing that.

[endrity]

Injured most of the year, Webber came back with like 20 games left in the regular season and played in all 12 Kings playoff games that post season, averaging about 37 mpg in those playoff games.

Good point. Didn't Garnett also average something like 20 ppg and 20 rpg in that three game series? Dirk may have scored at will, but wasn't KG still putting up huge numbers himself?

edit: KG put up 24 ppg and 18.7 rpg in that series.

Webber came back .... and played like shit. He had to sit out the whole season.

Yet Dirk averaged 33 and 15 I think. Great numbers both way obviously, but Dirk decided that series. And they went head to head most of the time. Plus the Wolves had Chauncey and Wally in his All Star season that year. They had one of the best teams of the KG era. And Chauncey had a great series, 20something points. It was his last pre-Pistons year. He was coming into his own.

[JamStone]

As I told you man, I lived in Michigan for the past 4 years. I have seen more Pistons than Mavs throughout that period, since most of these pirate links became available only about 2 seasons ago. If there is one team that I can speak of pretty well outside of the Mavs it's the Pistons.

I just said something which most Pistons fans don't like to hear, that's all. I can go further too, as for example that Rip and Chauncey was the real hero of the 04 championship. Yet, Chauncey is Mr.Big Shot and he took most of the credit. However he is probably the one player you can blame both the 06 and 07 meltdowns. But again, as a Piston fan you wouldn't like hearing that.


Saying you live in Michigan doesn't mean you watch the Pistons intently like Pistons fans do. Do you actually watch the offense they run under Flip Saunders? How often is Rasheed put in a position to shoot a midrange jumper? Rarely. There is one play I can remember in the past three years where the play is set up for Rasheed to actually shoot a midrange jumper other than off a post up. And, that was a reverse swing where Rasheed runs the baseline and shoots about a 12 footer on the baseline. The other midrange jumpers he shoots, he takes off of broken plays or offensive rebound kick outs. Saying he is not good at shooting a midrange jumper is not the same as not actually shooting it. The times I've seen Rasheed shoot midrange jumpers, he's been pretty effective.

I can take criticism of the Pistons just fine. I'm as critical of the Pistons as most non Pistons fans. I have stated on here that Chauncey Billups isn't even a top 5 point guard in the league. As for being the MVP in 2004, it was anyone's trophy for the Finals. Billups probably did play the best in the Finals. Rip Hamilton carried the Pistons in the ECF against the Pacers. If it was based on the entire playoffs, Rip probably did deserve the MVP. But, being as it is the Finals MVP, Billups was as deserving as anyone. There wasn't really an MVP to that 2004 Pistons team. That was as close to a team effort as you'll get for an NBA champion. Billups did have meltdowns the last two playoffs. Why wouldn't I want to hear that? He melted down against the Cavs last year and couldn't handle the traps they put on him near half court. And, against Miami, he couldn't buy a bucket. He was as much as at fault for those losses as anyone. You're not telling me anything new. And, you're not some preacher trying to set "Piston fan" free from homerism.

All I've argued was that Rasheed is more than capable of hitting midrange jumpers. You living in Michigan doesn't change my opinion on that at all.

[endrity]

^JamStone, that is my point with Sheed though. If it was a part of his game, as it SHOULD be because of his touch and skill, the Pistons would use it. But it clearely isn't and therefore he only does it occasionally, whereas a guy like Dirk has made it the most powerful shot of his arsenal. It proves my point that a man of his skill clearely lacked the heart, focus, to work on his game and become the player he could have been. It means that his shortcomings are not because of his 'unselfishness' but because of his lack of work ethic. You are only strengthening my argument here.

I said I lived in Michigan to tell you that I have watched a lot of Pistons games. I have missed a few here and there, but the Pistons were probably my 2nd favourite team. A distant 2nd but still. I am not pulling things out of my ass when I talk about them.

Happy you agree with me on the other things. Most friends of mine didn't. They were huge Chauncey lovers, which to me was a little absurd. All the team deserved the MVP for the Finals, true. But for what he did in the ECF against Artest even, Rip probably deserved more recognition than he got.

[Cry Havoc]

All I've argued was that Rasheed is more than capable of hitting midrange jumpers. You living in Michigan doesn't change my opinion on that at all.

Sheed is more than capable of hitting any shot from inside 26 feet, in my opinion.


, whereas a guy like Dirk has made it the most powerful shot of his arsenal.


That must be why he shoots all those 18 foot fadeaways over 6'2" point guards. :lmao

[JamStone]

Webber came back .... and played like shit. He had to sit out the whole season.


He played like shit?

After re-habbing most of the season, he came back and in that Dallas series averaged 19.4 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 4.0 apg, including a triple double in game 2.




Yet Dirk averaged 33 and 15 I think. Great numbers both way obviously, but Dirk decided that series. And they went head to head most of the time. Plus the Wolves had Chauncey and Wally in his All Star season that year. They had one of the best teams of the KG era. And Chauncey had a great series, 20something points. It was his last pre-Pistons year. He was coming into his own.

Head to head, and both put up monster numbers. KG couldn't stop Dirk. Was Dirk stopping KG? No. And, KG was certainly controlling the glass. Billups did have a great series. That was probably one of the primary reasons he is in Detroit now. I really think Dumars watched that series and whether or not he was decided to pursue Chauncey as a free agent, that series helped close the deal. But, regardless, you talk as if Wally and Chauncey and then Rasho? and Sam Mitchell? and Joe Smith? is better than Finley in his prime, Nash, and Van Exellent. Even Lafrentz was leagues ahead of Nesterovic back then.

[manufor3]

Unquestionably Better

Duncan
Dirk
Garnett
Jefferson
Rasheed
Brand

Same Level if not Better

Boozer
Bosh
Gasol

Other Notables and Arguables

West
J O'Neal
Aldridge

bosh is better but good list

[endrity]

Head to head, and both put up monster numbers. KG couldn't stop Dirk. Was Dirk stopping KG? No. And, KG was certainly controlling the glass. Billups did have a great series. That was probably one of the primary reasons he is in Detroit now. I really think Dumars watched that series and whether or not he was decided to pursue Chauncey as a free agent, that series helped close the deal. But, regardless, you talk as if Wally and Chauncey and then Rasho? and Sam Mitchell? and Joe Smith? is better than Finley in his prime, Nash, and Van Exellent. Even Lafrentz was leagues ahead of Nesterovic back then.

Neither stopped each other, which should be KG's forte as a great defender. Dirk was more unstopabble. Simple as that.

Chauncey was arguably the 3rd best player in that series, and Wally was having a better year statistically than Finley. He was an All star over a declining Fin. The Wolves had Peeler that year, who was at the time one of the best 3pt shooters in the league, but yes the Mavs had a better bench with NVE, and LaFrentz was better than Rasho then. But they had just arrived in Dallas, and didn't hit their stride until next season. That series was decided by KG v. Dirk, simple as that.

Cry-Havoc is a troll, so I won't feed you.

[endrity]

He played like shit?

After re-habbing most of the season, he came back and in that Dallas series averaged 19.4 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 4.0 apg, including a triple double in game 2.


And Dirk averaged.....?

Plus Webber broke the rhythm of that team man, they had a much better chance without him.

[JamStone]

^JamStone, that is my point with Sheed though. If it was a part of his game, as it SHOULD be because of his touch and skill, the Pistons would use it. But it clearely isn't and therefore he only does it occasionally, whereas a guy like Dirk has made it the most powerful shot of his arsenal. It proves my point that a man of his skill clearely lacked the heart, focus, to work on his game and become the player he could have been. It means that his shortcomings are not because of his 'unselfishness' but because of his lack of work ethic. You are only strengthening my argument here.

This is where your point is misguided. With this Pistons team, the offense is set up around Rip Hamilton's off the ball movement, curls, and midrange jumpshooting. There are other set plays, but during the course of a long regular season, the majority of plays are run through Rip and his movement. Rasheed's role on offense is primarily variations of three sets: the high pick-and-pop where he sets a pick for Chauncey and slides out for a three point attempt, a normal post-up on the low block, and then the free throw extended high post where he acts more as a passer and screener than a jump shooter. If you follow the Pistons at all like you claim, you would know that on this Pistons team, the majority of the shots go to Rip and Chauncey. Rasheed is generally a secondary, often times third option on offense unless there is a decided advantage on the low block and they're trying to establish inside. For optimum spacing for Prince and Billups to work down low when they post up, the lesser used offensive sets place Rasheed at the elbow three point line for kick outs. This allows more space for Billups or Prince to work down low without quick double teams by Rasheed's primary defender.

The Pistons offense doesn't feature Rasheed as the primary scorer as Dallas does with Dirk. Moreover, 98% of Pistons half court set plays are not isolation plays. More than half of Dirk's shot attempts come from a face-up isolation, even when it results from a pick-and-pop. Rasheed rarely gets the ball in midrange in an isolation situation. It's not for lack of skill or ability. It's because the Pistons actually run an offense. Rasheed is not a great ball handler as it pertains to putting the ball on the floor and attacking a defender off the dribble. So, getting the ball in midrange on a face-up does not make as much sense because he's limited to shooting it or passing it, not dribbling it. It's not because he can't shoot it from midrange. It's because he has fewer options in that position. So, you'll rarely see Rasheed in that position. It's not that he hasn't developed that skill. It's just not used often. Rasheed is not an isolation player. That doesn't mean he's not a very good midrange jump shooter.

[JamStone]

And Dirk averaged.....?

Plus Webber broke the rhythm of that team man, they had a much better chance without him.


If player A has better stats than player B, that automatically means play B "played like shit?"

The Kings beat the Mavs 4-1 in that series, and went to game 7 against the Wolves in the second round, the team with the best record that season. How exactly did Webber break the rhythm of that team? I remember rumblings how the Kings played better without Webber, that Brad Miller was great at the power forward position in Webber's absence. All bullshit. Without Webber, the Kings probably don't beat the Mavs in that first round.

[endrity]

^Right, but isn't that enough to say that one of the most talented PFs of all time clearely didn't work on his game enough to become more than the third or even fourth (behind Prince) option on offense. With the skills that he has I don't know why he couldn't develop close to Dirk level on offense, and become a major headache as an iso player.

I love Rip more than anyone on the Pistons, but Sheed should have been the focal point of the offense over a guy that pretty much willed himself to the point where he is now.

[endrity]

If player A has better stats than player B, that automatically means play B "played like shit?"

The Kings beat the Mavs 4-1 in that series, and went to game 7 against the Wolves in the second round, the team with the best record that season. How exactly did Webber break the rhythm of that team? I remember rumblings how the Kings played better without Webber, that Brad Miller was great at the power forward position in Webber's absence. All bullshit. Without Webber, the Kings probably don't beat the Mavs in that first round.

Well the funny thing is that the Mavs outscored the Kings throughout that series, so that 4-1 score should be taken with a grain of salt. If player A had much better stats than player B, it only means that player A is better which was the main point we are arguing if I remember.

The 'played like shit' was my observation. I remember the Kings BEING the 1 seed throughout the season, Peja being a possible MVP, and then Webber's return knocking them to 4th. I remember a very fluid offense become very static. And I remember them blowing a possible 2-0 lead in Minny, and which cost them the series. I think the Webber-less Kings that year could have gone to the WCF. Probably not win, but in my mind they were better without him.

[JamStone]

Neither stopped each other, which should be KG's forte as a great defender. Dirk was more unstopabble. Simple as that.

Not arguing that Dirk wasn't more unstoppable. But, if he didn't stop KG either, why is it that Dirk "dominated" KG when KG was basically putting up 24 and 18? Mavs fans are claiming Dirk dominated him while KG held his own.



Chauncey was arguably the 3rd best player in that series, and Wally was having a better year statistically than Finley. He was an All star over a declining Fin.

Finley averaged 25 pts and 7 rbds in that series against the T-Wolves.

And, Finley had the better year statistically. As what happens frequently with all star games, Wally was selected over Finley because of team record, not because of statistical superiority.



The Wolves had Peeler that year, who was at the time one of the best 3pt shooters in the league, but yes the Mavs had a better bench with NVE, and LaFrentz was better than Rasho then. But they had just arrived in Dallas, and didn't hit their stride until next season. That series was decided by KG v. Dirk, simple as that.

You can go down player by player. You'd be hard pressed to argue that the Timberwolves had a better supporting cast around KG than Dallas did around Dirk, which you just started realizing, because that's what you were initially trying to argue otherwise with the Billups/Wally comments. Lest we forget that Billups wasn't even supposed to be the starting point guard of the Wolves in the playoffs. That was Terrell Brandon's team. But, you want to argue how NVE and Lefrentz had just arrived?

It did come down to KG and Dirk and if you want acknowledgment that Dirk outplayed KG, I have no problem with that. I have a problem with saying Dirk dominated or owned KG when KG held his own.

[JamStone]

Well the funny thing is that the Mavs outscored the Kings throughout that series, so that 4-1 score should be taken with a grain of salt. If player A had much better stats than player B, it only means that player A is better which was the main point we are arguing if I remember.

Actually your main point first was that Chris Webber didn't even play in 2004, which was incorrect. Then it was that when he came back, he played like shit. Remember?



The 'played like shit' was my observation. I remember the Kings BEING the 1 seed throughout the season, Peja being a possible MVP, and then Webber's return knocking them to 4th. I remember a very fluid offense become very static. And I remember them blowing a possible 2-0 lead in Minny, and which cost them the series. I think the Webber-less Kings that year could have gone to the WCF. Probably not win, but in my mind they were better without him.

How do you remember that now but initially you didn't even remember Webber coming back at all in 2004?

When Webber came back in the regular season, it did take an adjustment period for the team to find chemistry. But, had he not returned, the Kings weren't going to beat the Mavs, much less get to the WCF as you claim.

[endrity]

I said he barely played in the 03 series man, when Dirk led the Mavs to a series victory. he came back in 04, yet while the Kings won, Dirk was clearely better than him. The Kings did not win because of Webber.
In the 02 series their production was very equal.

I was saying all of this because of your response to my argument that Dirk is better than KG because he outplayed him in their series. Your response was that Webber than should be considered better than Dirk, while I was trying to tell you that thier playoff history does not show that. That's all.

As of what the Kings would have done that season, that's pure speculation on both parts, and I couldn't care less really. I know they were the 1 seed before Webber came back. They dropped, and that was the last time we ever heard of them after that season.

[JamStone]

^Right, but isn't that enough to say that one of the most talented PFs of all time clearely didn't work on his game enough to become more than the third or even fourth (behind Prince) option on offense. With the skills that he has I don't know why he couldn't develop close to Dirk level on offense, and become a major headache as an iso player.

Rasheed just isn't that guy. One of Rasheed's greatest traits as a basketball player is his unselfishness as a teammate and his sincere desire for his teammates to succeed. He has uncanny loyalty to teammates and unquestioned sincerity in his willingness to do whatever it takes to not only win, but to do it in a way that's best for the team. You won't find many players like Sheed that have the abilities to be one of the best players in the league but the unselfishness to want his teammates to be great. You just won't.




I love Rip more than anyone on the Pistons, but Sheed should have been the focal point of the offense over a guy that pretty much willed himself to the point where he is now.

Bullshit. Rasheed was "the guy" in Portland for a couple years, and they had some success. Rip and Chauncey were the established "go-to" guys in Detroit when Rasheed joined, and the Pistons went to back-to-back NBA Finals, winning one. Makes no sense to try to build around Rasheed when not only Rasheed was comfortable being a complementary player, but both Billups and Hamilton were very good being the "go to" guys on the team.

[JamStone]

And in 04 Webber was gone

[endrity]

Typo, you should know better ^

[endrity]

Rasheed just isn't that guy. One of Rasheed's greatest traits as a basketball player is his unselfishness as a teammate and his sincere desire for his teammates to succeed. He has uncanny loyalty to teammates and unquestioned sincerity in his willingness to do whatever it takes to not only win, but to do it in a way that's best for the team. You won't find many players like Sheed that have the abilities to be one of the best players in the league but the unselfishness to want his teammates to be great. You just won't.





Bullshit. Rasheed was "the guy" in Portland for a couple years, and they had some success. Rip and Chauncey were the established "go-to" guys in Detroit when Rasheed joined, and the Pistons went to back-to-back NBA Finals, winning one. Makes no sense to try to build around Rasheed when not only Rasheed was comfortable being a complementary player, but both Billups and Hamilton were very good being the "go to" guys on the team.

You call it unselfishness, I call it limitations. It's a point of view thing. Just like the old/veteran thing.

Even as the 'guy' in Portland Sheed was never a dominant player, which speaks more to his limitations.

[JamStone]

I said he barely played in the 03 series man, when Dirk led the Mavs to a series victory. he came back in 04, yet while the Kings won, Dirk was clearely better than him. The Kings did not win because of Webber.
In the 02 series their production was very equal.

Production was pretty equal, and Dirk shot 40.2% from the field, Webber 54.6% from the field.



I was saying all of this because of your response to my argument that Dirk is better than KG because he outplayed him in their series. Your response was that Webber than should be considered better than Dirk, while I was trying to tell you that thier playoff history does not show that. That's all.

And, while Dirk played better than KG, KG still put up great numbers, yet it's fine for Mavs fans to claim Dirk "dominated" KG? To me it's similar because Dirk put up great numbers against the Kings but Chris Webber put up similar or better numbers and his team won those two series.



As of what the Kings would have done that season, that's pure speculation on both parts, and I couldn't care less really. I know they were the 1 seed before Webber came back. They dropped, and that was the last time we ever heard of them after that season.

You're starting to not make sense. They dropped and that's the last time you heard of them them that season? Except for when they beat the Mavs in the first round, right?

[JamStone]

Typo, you should know better ^


Couldn't be a typo when you followed it up with...


So you are basing your views on the 02 series.

...basically acknowledging you forgot Webber played in the 04 series.

You should admit you forgot.

[endrity]

In the 04 series Dirk outplayed a hobbled Webber. Yet the Kings won, because of Bibby v. Nash. I have said that many times.

The only time when you can say that Webber outplayed Dirk was 02. Which is true to a certain extent, but as I said you were talking about a still very young Dirk with a in his prime Webber.

With KG, they were both the same age, KG being a little older. The teams were mostly comparable. And if you saw those series it was KG v. Dirk that decided it, whereas in Kings v. Mavs it was mostly Bibby v. Nash. Webber barely played in 03, was hobbled in 04.

So except 02, you don't really have a case that Webber was outplaying Dirk.

Even in those series, they were still comparable. Don't forget that most people keep track of true shooting percentage, that is where Dirk excels as his 3s sometime take his percentages down, but they contribute more points.

After Webber came back, and to my opinion screwed up the Kings season, they beat an also struggling Mavs team during the Antoine and Antwan experiment, but then were kicked out from the TWolves and that was it for their window. They went into a freefall after the season. That's what I was saying, don't try to put words into my mouth. You can easily understand what I am trying to say. Webber's return that season killed all of their chemistry for that season and more, which is why I believe Webber's return was a bad thing. But this is not the point I am interested.

[JamStone]

You call it unselfishness, I call it limitations. It's a point of view thing. Just like the old/veteran thing.

Even as the 'guy' in Portland Sheed was never a dominant player, which speaks more to his limitations.

Nope. It's pretty much unselfishness. In high school, Rasheed sat out the second half of most games because they were blowouts and he didn't feel like showing up the other team. At UNC, he pretty much let Stackhouse be the star because all he cared about was winning even though Rasheed was the better player. He has always unselfish. Every team he's been on. He never takes that many shots because that's not how he plays. He doesn't care about scoring 40 or 50 points. The first season he was in Detroit, he had a huge game one night and was the "hero" of the game and he refused to talk to reporters (not rudely) until they talked to Elden Campbell first because EC had reached some milestone of number of games or something. He's stated in interviews that since he's been in the NBA, he has not once looked at a game's boxscore/stat sheet. After winning the title in 2004, on the championship DVD, Rasheed stated that he couldn't care less about the Hall of Fame or all star games or any of that. He cared about moments like winning the championship.

He doesn't care about dominating. He cares about winning. He cares about his teammates. He cares about the game. He doesn't care about stats. He doesn't care about how fans think he should be better than he is, or that he should have developed his skills more. He doesn't care about any of those things.

That's unselfishness, not limitations.

[endrity]

A player that cares about winning, wants to take over a game if he thinks that he is the best player on the court. If you don't than than there already is something wrong in your head. Even more, if you don't have the skills to do so, it means that you better find other ways to contribute which is what Sheed does.

I don't deny he loves his teammates and that he is a classy guy, but that's not an argument to use as for why he never developed his game. Duncan is a classy guy, so is Dirk, so is Nash. I am pretty sure they also could care less about MVPs, AllStar selections, if they could have more rings. Yet they worked their ass off to be where they are, and develop their games. Sheed clearly didn't and that is why he is a lesser player than those guys. And that is a shame for a guy that was given as much natural talent as anyone in the league. Because I don't think you can argue that Sheed has developed the skill level that those guys have. And it's exactly those skills that allow them to take over the game.

[JamStone]

There are plenty players in the league that have been "the guy" for many seasons. From Vince to T-Mac to Iverson to Dirk. Very few of "those guys" that ultimately win championships like Shaq and Duncan as "the guy."

Rasheed's best team success came when he was a key player on a great team but not "the guy." I think he'll take his championship ring and the success he's had with the Pistons over not being "the guy" like Dirk or Iverson are.

It takes something very special for a player to sacrifice his game for the good of the team. Players who are incapable of compromise and unselfishness in their own way have their own types of limitations.

[endrity]

But didn't you just say that the Pistons rely more on Billups and Hamilton? Does that mean that they are better than Sheed? Probably. But should a player of Sheed's abilities be a lesser player than those two? No, hell No.

Rasheed is better of not being the guy, because he CAN'T. Iverson clearely has been a selfish player, but you can't say that about Dirk.

You can be unselfish, nice to teammates, and still be the guy. Those things are not mutually exclusive as you make it sound.

[Allanon]

Amare's an excellent scorer but he wouldn't be as good without Nash.

And certainly not MVP material this year when you have guys like CP3, Kobe, Lebron, KG in the same sentence.

[JamStone]

But didn't you just say that the Pistons rely more on Billups and Hamilton? Does that mean that they are better than Sheed? Probably. But should a player of Sheed's abilities be a lesser player than those two? No, hell No.

Rasheed is better of not being the guy, because he CAN'T. Iverson clearely has been a selfish player, but you can't say that about Dirk.

You can be unselfish, nice to teammates, and still be the guy. Those things are not mutually exclusive as you make it sound.


That might make sense if Billups and Hamilton were ineffective as the main "go to" guys for the Pistons. They are not ineffective. In fact, they have probably been the most effective "go to" guys in the league after Kobe, LeBron, and Duncan over the last five years.

When the Pistons acquired Rasheed, it was already Billups' and Hamilton's team. He found where he could fit in and the team won a title. Billups and Hamilton are not aging vets older than Sheed. They're both younger than Sheed. It's their team. Rasheed is playing his part and content in it. Not all athletes have the ultimate ego that necessitates them being the "go to" guy. Rasheed has no ego when it comes to putting up big numbers or having to have the ball in crunch time, especially not when Chauncey had built a reputation as a clutch performer.

Unselfishness and being "the guy" don't have to be mutually exclusive. Tim Duncan proves that. But, you can't question that of Rasheed since his unselfishness has led to an NBA title and pretty much the second most team success in the NBA over the last five seasons.

[endrity]

The Pistons have been good with Sheed, no denying that. However a well developed Sheed could have made them a real dynasty. Hamilton and Billups are great man, but no one has close to the talent that Sheed has. Yet because he never really worked on his game, we'll never know how much better they could have been.

I don't question the fact that Sheed found his niche with the Pistons. That's great after he was about to fall off the map in Portland. But don't tell me that the reason he doesn't dominate is because he is unselfish.

I'll make it easier on you. If he somehow decided to become the man tomorrow, do you think he has the skills to do that? Can he really carry the team night in, night out? I am pretty convinced he can't, and that he could have if he had really wanted to work on his game.

[Findog]

. If he somehow decided to become the man tomorrow, do you think he has the skills to do that? Can he really carry the team night in, night out? I am pretty convinced he can't, and that he could have if he had really wanted to work on his game.

I absolutely think he can, he is that fucking talented. I don't think Sheed wants all of the stuff that comes with being The Man, having to be the team spokesman when reporters come around, having to get the blame when things go bad, because when a team fails, the star player and coach get the lion's share of it fair or not, etc.

[endrity]

I absolutely think he can, he is that fucking talented. I don't think Sheed wants all of the stuff that comes with being The Man, having to be the team spokesman when reporters come around, having to get the blame when things go bad, because when a team fails, the star player and coach get the lion's share of it fair or not, etc.

He had the talent, but I don't think his game is quite at that level. As I said before, his midrange shot is very weak, he can't put the ball on the floor. And his footwork is not good at all. I have seen him over the years, and I am convinced of that. It's just that he rearely tries these things and therefore you think he can do them. Similiar to Garnett really, who even when he tries to take over you easily see his limitations in range, power, and creativity.

p.s JR Smith can be a hell of a player. Unlimited range, crazy athleticism, good ballhandler, crazy instincts about the game. Yet if he tried to be a man, you would see that he has holes in his game. Now Sheed is obviously much developed than JR, but it's the same concept. Just because he has the skills to do so, it doesn't mean someone can become a great player overnight. You have to fill those holes in your game, and Sheed hasn't.

[JamStone]

The Pistons have been good with Sheed, no denying that. However a well developed Sheed could have made them a real dynasty. Hamilton and Billups are great man, but no one has close to the talent that Sheed has. Yet because he never really worked on his game, we'll never know how much better they could have been.

I don't question the fact that Sheed found his niche with the Pistons. That's great after he was about to fall off the map in Portland. But don't tell me that the reason he doesn't dominate is because he is unselfish.

I'll make it easier on you. If he somehow decided to become the man tomorrow, do you think he has the skills to do that? Can he really carry the team night in, night out? I am pretty convinced he can't, and that he could have if he had really wanted to work on his game.


Thing is people "assume" that Rasheed doesn't work on his game. Maybe it's because he doesn't have Ben Wallace's physique or because he's not as versatile as Kevin Garnett. I'd be willing to bet that Rasheed does work on his game a lot. He may not work on dribbling or one-on-one moves, but I'm sure he works on the skills that he actually uses in games.

To answer your question, if the offense was built around Rasheed, I see no reason why he couldn't average around 20-23 ppg, night in and night out. What I do question is that it would be best for this Pistons team with the particular core of players and whether it would lead to the success this team has seen the last five seasons. Rip needs around 18-20 shots a game to be effective. Making Rasheed the focal point of the offense takes away touches from Rip. Similarly, if you set Rasheed down in the post, you take a lot of play making decisions away from Billups. Billups needs the ball in his hands on offense to establish his rhythm. So while Rasheed is capable of carrying the offense, I don't think it would optimize the efficiency and effectiveness of the team.

[JamStone]

He had the talent, but I don't think his game is quite at that level. As I said before, his midrange shot is very weak, he can't put the ball on the floor. And his footwork is not good at all. I have seen him over the years, and I am convinced of that. It's just that he rearely tries these things and therefore you think he can do them. Similiar to Garnett really, who even when he tries to take over you easily see his limitations in range, power, and creativity.


Don't know where to find the stat, but I would be willing to bet Rasheed shoots midrange jumpers (that aren't turn around post fade-aways) well over 50%.

His footwork is not weak at all. It's not perfect, but it very good, and at the very least completely adequate for a low post player.

Rasheed doesn't need to put the ball on the floor or shoot midrange jumpers to carry an offense. That's where you're misapplying your logic. If the offense ran through Rasheed, it should and would be through Rasheed in the low post with his back to the basket, not on the wing or a on the midpost as a face-up. There are very few players in the league that can stop Rasheed's fall-away jumpers in the low post. He can shoot over either shoulder, going baseline or in towards the paint. He is very effective backing down defenders by using his rear. And, his high release point makes it virtually impossible to block unless you're Yao Ming.

He doesn't need to hit midrange jumpers or have the ability to put the ball on the floor to carry an offense.

[endrity]

Well have you seen Sheed add anything to his game since his early Portland days? I haven't. Therefore while he probably works at things he is already good at, I am pretty sure he cared very little to expand his game like other greats do.

Did Sheed ever average 23 ppg as a Blazer, where he was the main guy? I don't think he did. Sheed as a main focus on offense clearely won't help this current team, but also because Sheed as a main focus could be controlled by opposing defenses. Force him off the 3 pt line, force him to put the ball on the floor, be phycial on the post and there you have it.

[endrity]

OK, I am done. This was an Amare thread. I believe that Sheed has limitations to his game, which don't show up very often because he rarely tries to do things he can't. I will admit he is good at that. Yet these limitations prevent him from being a top 10 player in the league, and it's a shame because he had the talent to eleminate these holes in his game. I think he shares some of these traits with KG, who really doesn't have a vast offensive repertoire and that is why he is easily checked in the 4 quarters and therefore never trully takes over games.

You don't believe that and I don't think anyone is convicing each other.

[JamStone]

You can point out similar things about all great players. Why hasn't Dirk learned how to play with his back to the basket? How come he still hasn't improved defensively though he tries more now? How come he hasn't worked on becoming a shot blocker at his size and agility?

How come Shaq never improved how to defend the pick-and-roll? How come he never became an adequate free throw shooter?

You point out putting the ball on the court and shooting midrange jumpers with Rasheed. Those are two areas in the game.

All players have areas of improvement they could work on.

Rasheed averaged 19 ppg a couple seasons in Portland. Thing is he was unselfish back then too. Those two Portland teams had 6 players each average double digits in scoring. Name the last player to average over 20 ppg and have five teammates averaging double digit scoring. This Pistons team has four players averaging double digits, including Rasheed. It's a lot more reasonable to foresee Rasheed averaging over 20 ppg if he were the focal point of the offense.

[Killakobe81]

Amare has improved his jumpshot, FT shooting so offensively no not overrated but he is not better than Tim/KG/Rasheed because he cant play D but out of the offensive guys Boozer,Dirk he is probably the the first or 2nd best of that bunch ...

[endrity]

^ and then along comes a guy like this. Dirk out of the league of TD/KG/Sheed ?????? Dumb. But that is what ESPN is telling people.

[ElNono]

^ and then along comes a guy like this. Dirk out of the league of TD/KG/Sheed ?????? Dumb. But that is what ESPN is telling people.

I disagree. I think the one that drinks the ESPN Kool-Aid is you. I had to read only 3 posts from you to notice you only see one half of the court.
Sheed is one of the very few players that not only can guard Duncan 1 on 1, but can also match him shot for shot.

The only knock I have on Sheed, is that sometimes he doesn't show up for games.

[Findog]

As super talented as Sheed is, he's never been able to consistently carry a team as The Man the way Dirk has. You probably would choose him over Dirk for a pickup game, but not when building a franchise.

[ElNono]

As super talented as Sheed is, he's never been able to consistently carry a team as The Man the way Dirk has. You probably would choose him over Dirk for a pickup game, but not when building a franchise.

My problem with Sheed is that he's inconsistent. When Larry Brown was the coach, his offensive zone was limited to the low post. He obviously was very successful at it, with 2 consecutive NBA Finals appearances.
Now it seems Flippy gave him the green light to do as he pleases and all those treys he's firing take away from his game, IMHO. If he hits one or two he falls in love with it, and starts chucking shoots for the rest of the game.

As far as carrying a franchise as The Man, that term is normally used for mostly the guy that provides offense, perhaps the few exceptions being TD, Kobe and KG. If I had a guy or two (like Billups and Rip) that can score, and needed to add a defensive anchor, I would definitely pick Sheed over Dirk.

[JamStone]

My problem with Sheed is that he's inconsistent. When Larry Brown was the coach, his offensive zone was limited to the low post. He obviously was very successful at it, with 2 consecutive NBA Finals appearances.
Now it seems Flippy gave him the green light to do as he pleases and all those treys he's firing take away from his game, IMHO. If he hits one or two he falls in love with it, and starts chucking shoots for the rest of the game.


Common misperception. This year and last year, Rasheed has averaged about 4 three point attempts per game. In 2004 when the Pistons won the title, Rasheed averaged 3 three point attempts per game, in both the regular season as a Piston and in the playoffs. That's only one more three point attempt per game.

Larry Brown had no problem with Rasheed stepping out shooting three pointers if they were in the flow of the offense.

The first year under Flip, Sheed was three happy. These last two seasons, he's been much more selective when to shoot three pointeres. And, when he hits one or two, he does start to shoot more. That's allowed him to have big games from three point land, 5-10, 5-8, 4-7, 5-10, 5-7. When he misses a couple, he generally stops shooting them unless he's completely wide open.

[JamStone]

endrity, please read. Not to prove anything you've said is wrong. Just so you know a little more about him.


http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3336339


... LISTENS TO HIS HEAD ... FOLLOWS HIS HEART

The Pistons coach on the floor can outsmart anyone in the NBA. Including himself.

by Eric Adelson

LISTENS TO HIS HEAD

Coach Sheed. Say it out loud: Pistons head coach Rasheed Wallace. Imagine him pacing the sideline, snarling behind the salt-and-pepper beard. Maybe he's loosened his tie or taken off his sport coat, the trademark headband long gone. There's Coach Sheed teaching rooks to read picks, defend bigger men, clog passing lanes. He's as hands-on with his players as he is with his summer campers, and he's always mentored them one-on-one.

It was during a game against the Jazz earlier this season in which a vision of the power forward, injured and wearing a blazer on the bench, first got GM Joe Dumars to wonder: How would Wallace be as a coach? Dumars has since gone so far as to suggest to the big man that he stay with the team and grab a whistle after he retires.

Coach Sheed. Give it a minute before you think your world has been turned upside down.

"He is bright and insightful," says Dumars. "He'll lead the league in techs, but he also knows where everyone is supposed to be at all times." Says coach Flip Saunders: "He has all the makings of a great coach. He sees things before they happen." Bill Guthridge, who was an assistant at North Carolina when Wallace came through, sees it too. "He absorbed everything. He'd be listening even if what was said wasn't directed at him. He had great savvy—almost a point guard savvy." Even an opposing coach, Stan Van Gundy, agrees. "He's extremely smart, ahead of every play. He doesn't miss helps or rotations. He knows when it's time to shoot and time to pass. I've never understood why he isn't a perennial All-Star."

Wallace is not a perennial All-Star because he's a perennial pain in the eyes of NBA suits and refs. But just watch the man play. His outlet passes—arms extended overhead—are straight out of an instruction manual. His picks are perfect, feet planted wide and parallel every time. And considering one of his responsibilities is to guard the league's best bigs, he rarely gets into foul trouble (personal foul trouble, anyway). He has always absorbed nuance quickly. "We were working on a press-breaker," recalls Bill Ellerbee, Sheed's coach at Philadelphia's Simon Gratz High. "I told him to let the guards use him as a light post. I never had to tell him again."

More recently, Wallace, 33, mentored two of the quietest people he's ever met—former teammate Ben Wallace and current teammate Amir Johnson—in the extroverted art of court communication. "He teaches me," says Johnson. "You gotta see the floor, gotta be the guy who talks." Nobody (including Saunders) is louder on the bench than Wallace, whether he's calling picks or telling forward Jason Maxiell to stand "straight up" or assuring Rip Hamilton that his move to the basket will work "all day."

Years ago, on his campus visit to North Carolina, Wallace didn't ask for directions to the best diner or the top sorority. He wanted to meet Chuck Stone, the Tuskegee Airman who helped found and was the first president of the National Association of Black Journalists, and who wrote hundreds of columns challenging the status quo and taught at Chapel Hill. Wallace's mind has always roamed far beyond the game.

So to answer Dumars' question: How would Wallace be as a coach? Probably pretty good, and possibly even better than he is as a player. Wallace is hyperaware to everything that goes on around him. It's a talent that would pay big dividends for a coach, but it can sometimes work against a player whose primary mission is the execution of a limited bundle of tasks night after night. Saunders, for one, says Wallace is "too smart for his own good."

Chauncey Billups once told Jim Rome that Wallace "is so good he gets bored playing against some guys who aren't up to his level." He was never going to be satisfied leading the block-to-block life of a big man. Although he hardly shot threes in high school or college, Wallace started to take them in Portland—"an experiment," he called it—and that changed his game. Suddenly, he was a threat from anywhere. But it also made him a potential threat to his own team.

These days, that team is a member of the NBA's elite. But it goes into the playoffs with one serious flaw: post play. Detroit has yet to replace the likes of Ben Wallace and Mehmet Okur, and it will not win another title unless someone clears the glass and lifts an offense that is suddenly close to the bottom of the league in points in the paint. That someone is Wallace.

The Pistons have plenty of shooters. And though Sheed considers himself a "shotter" ("a shooter takes shots, a shotter makes shots"), that isn't about to replace a daily diet of 12 boards. "Late in the game," says former Pistons coach Larry Brown, "I'd like to see him on the block more." Dumars agrees, admitting the sight of Wallace with his back to the basket makes him think, Why can't he do that 82 nights a year? Ellerbee says he once warned him never to leave the post. "If I was his coach, I'd demand more. More rebounds, more blocked shots. We need a center, not the other crap." Sheed himself admits, "I wish I would have listened to him."

So maybe the best question is how Wallace would coach himself. Well, he says he'd spot up at the 4 and direct himself to play the post and shoot from the arc. But that's Sheed, the player, talking.

Coach Sheed would surely know better.

FOLLOWS HIS HEART

Now that he's sitting in an opposing locker room, Ben Wallace can speak freely on the subject of Rasheed Wallace. "Did his outbursts bother us?" he repeats, looking up. "Not at all. When he got excited, I got ready. Sometimes the team didn't get started until he got a T." Current teammates, if they were being completely truthful, would have to admit that there were also times when those outbursts signaled the end—like when Sheed stormed off after being ejected in Cleveland from Game 6 of the Eastern Conference finals last season. That lack of self-control was tolerated when Rasheed came to Detroit in 2004 as the final piece, but it won't fly now that he's the biggest one. Wallace is the Pistons' emotional generator, with the power to leave the team cold, heat it up or short it out.

You don't have to look too far to see where he gets his spark. Before her youngest son took a shot in the high school gym that today bears his name, Jackie Wallace brought him to the basketball coach at Philly's Simon Gratz High and said: "If he gives you any trouble, punch him." She was a single mom who was too poor to install a shower in her bathroom, but she was plenty rich in her sense of right and wrong. And her brand of justice leads Rasheed like a polestar. "She should have had better," Rasheed says. "Life ain't fair, period." Rasheed's brothers, Mohammed and the late Malcolm, are namesakes of two righteous outcasts who were vilified before they were appreciated. But Rasheed plays as much to that type as either.

Though he has more money than even wealthy people can grasp, Sheed has been seen walking down the street with holes in his sweats—hence the nickname Homeless Harry. And when teammates wear fancy clothes, he has been known to remove the apparel from their lockers, hang them on the dry-erase board, draw an arrow to them and write in mock disgust: "Are you serious?!" He lets his hair grow, getting it cut only when he's back in Philly, by the same barber he has gone to for years. He rarely does commercials. "I could have had the soft drink contract," Wallace says, "but it's not me." He refused to be photographed for this story, saying he'd rather share the spotlight with the team's other stars, and during the 20 minutes he gave for an interview, he hardly made eye contact.

But while he doesn't pamper or pimp himself, he is obsessed with children and charity. Wallace heads back to the old neighborhood in the summer to run a basketball camp, where he buys every kid lunch every day. When the Pistons were recording a holiday greeting of "Jingle Bells" for the JumboTron—a clip that still gets hits on YouTube—Wallace was quick to volunteer. In it, he starts off in the background, dutifully singing the lyrics. But before long, he's shoving teammates aside and moving to the front to yell, "Remix!" before becoming a human beat box for the duration, all the while jutting his head like a turtle on Ritalin: "JINGLE! Buh-Buh-Buh-BELLS!"

If only that Sheed—happy, almost blissful, the way he is during his traditional pregame dance in the huddle—were the only Sheed. Instead, that guy is often wrestled into submission by another who looks hard for conspiracy. When Wallace took his wife to Italy last summer, he prepped her for encounters with racism—"I expected to get treated unfairly"—then found it in the wary looks of store attendants as he browsed the aisles of a boutique. Never mind that what might have been drawing attention was his 6'11" frame or his worldwide fame. Wallace went looking for discrimination, and he found it. Sometimes his paranoia is justified … Wallace was called out for comparing his fellow NBA players to slaves in 2003, but New York Times columnist William C. Rhoden has received praise for his book Forty Million Dollar Slaves, about the same subject.

Wallace has a reputation for speaking his mind—look no further than this season's 11 technicals, a number that puts him among the league's leaders—but he might as well be channeling Jackie's justice. Who else could have inspired his theory that the NBA has "baby dolls" it protects at all costs? "I can take losing," he says. "But don't BS me. Give me a fair shake. We make up this league too." By "we" he means his teammates. Last anyone checked, most of them were former champions, not pariahs.

Most athletes seek praise and recognition; Wallace loathes both. In the 2005 Finals, each player was told to stand on a podium during the pregame intros; Wallace refused to do so before Game 1 and lasted on one for less than a second before Game 2. "Rasheed was totally embarrassed," says Larry Brown. "I had to beg him to do it. I almost had to hold his hand." His reaction to being named to this season's All-Star team was similar, with him displaying almost as much frustration at having to cancel a family trip to the Bahamas as at being forced to confront the possibility that he'd become one of those "baby dolls" he despises.

Fact is, Wallace should be a Hall of Famer, but it's not in him to dominate—to be the once-in-a-generation star his talent supports. Maybe this explains why he lingers on the perimeter instead of being more of a force down low. He's always been more comfortable on the outside looking in.

[N4th4n]

Great read. Gotta love Rasheed!

[Stabbin' Cabin]

My God what a retarded thread. It'd be like if I started a thread saying Dirk only shoots fadeaway 20 footers and like Shawn Bradley, ends up on a poster every time he tries to defend in the paint being the big stiff vagina that he is. Then 5 similarly braindead Phoenix fans would jump in and spout the first random bs that comes to their mind. Watch a game rather than make shit up and make an ass out of yourself.

[spurms]

the only weakness in amare's game apart from defense is that he is not a true post player and can't post up people, he choose to drive past them instead, he's good at midrange, and could play the small forward role, and the best ball handler of any big men in the league, i don't think he's overated since everyone is hugging kobe, lebron or dwight howard's nuts.

[ludda]

Amare is a disgrace on defense b/c you know he could be decent if he consistently tried. Offensive beast though, but his ego shadows everything else. Wah wah I'm not MVP wah wah.

[endrity]

endrity, please read. Not to prove anything you've said is wrong. Just so you know a little more about him.


Where in there do you find anything that goes against what I said? I know what his mindset is, I think it's the wrong one for the talent that he is.

[Findog]

bumping MRodgers gay threads off the front page

[JamStone]

Where in there do you find anything that goes against what I said? I know what his mindset is, I think it's the wrong one for the talent that he is.


I specifically stated it wasn't to prove anything you said was wrong. That wasn't my intent. I just wanted you to read the article. But, that "mindset" does help provide some personal background on why he is so unselfish as a basketball. Again, I specifically stated it wasn't about proving any of your opinion wrong. Just wanted you to read it.