Throwaway kids

[RandomGuy]

By MARTHA IRVINE, AP National Writer
1 hour, 4 minutes ago



CHICAGO - The young caller's voice is high-pitched and trembling.

Her mother's been drinking, she says. They got into a fistfight, so the girl grabbed her backpack and a cell phone and bolted, with little thought about where a 13-year-old could go on a cold night.

Hiding in an alley off her rural hometown's deserted main street, she calls the only phone number she can think of: 1-800-RUNAWAY.

"I just don't feel like I'm taken care of like a daughter should be," the girl tells the volunteer who answers the phone at the National Runaway Switchboard. She stutters between sobs and shivers.

Her story is a common one at the Chicago-based hot line, which handles well over 100,000 calls each year, many from troubled young people who are dealing with increasingly difficult issues.

National Runaway Switchboard data provided exclusively to The Associated Press shows that the overall number of young callers facing crises that jeopardized their safety rose from 13,650 in 2000 to 15,857 last year. About two-thirds of the latter figure were young people who were thinking of running away, had already done so or had been thrown out of the house.

Federally funded since the 1970s, the National Runaway Switchboard is regarded by people who work with troubled youth as an organization that provides one of the best overviews of the shadowy world of teenage runaways, which is difficult to track.

The group's statistics showed that callers are getting younger and that 6,884 crisis callers last year said they had been abused or neglected, compared with 3,860 in 2000. That is a 78 percent increase.

Some callers just want someone to talk to, about problems at home or with friends. Others who have already run away use the hot line to exchange messages with their families — to let them know they're OK, or to arrange a free bus ticket home.

Some are desperate for a place to stay, for safety, for options.

"I'm scared of my parents, and I don't want to go back there. Please don't make me!" pleaded the 13-year-old girl who called this particular night.

The information she gave the hot line checked out. However, her name and other identifying details could not be included for this story because the National Runaway Switchboard guarantees callers confidentiality.

It also quickly became apparent to volunteer Megan McCormick — who has been trained to spot the occasional crank call — that this girl's fear was real.

"I know it must be really scary," said McCormick, a graduate student in social work at the University of Chicago. As they spoke, she checked the call center's extensive computer database for shelters in the girl's hometown.

The closest was in a larger city, 40 minutes away. But when McCormick called, she was told they didn't take anyone younger than 14.

Such scenarios are common in many regions of the country, particularly rural areas where resources for runaways are scarce. Further complicating the matter, the Runaway Switchboard has found that more crisis callers than ever are 14 and younger — 1,255 in that age group in 2000, compared with 1,844 last year.

"The reality is, there are not always services available for kids who are calling," says Maureen Blaha, executive director of the National Runaway Switchboard, which began as a Chicago area crisis hot line in 1971 and went national three years later. "We try to be as creative as we can be to find solutions. But there isn't always a simple answer."

Others in the youth services field concur.

They note that while the number of shelters and other organizations that help runaways have slowly increased over the decades, they have been unable to keep pace with the demand.Many institutions also lack the resources to deal with the severity of issues young people face today.

"The population is much more disturbed than the runaways who were being seen 20 or 30 years ago," says Victoria Wagner, chief executive of the National Network for Youth, a coalition of agencies that serve troubled young people. "There are more mental health issues, more substance abuse, more coming from violent home situations."

Long-standing government support for the Runaway Switchboard has been a vital component in addressing the problem, Wagner says. But, she adds, federal dollars for shelters and other services, also through the Runaway Youth Act, have remained largely stagnant since it first passed in the 1970s. So she and others are pressing Congress for more.

It's a tough sell in trying economic times. But the irony, Wagner says, is that when people are unemployed and families are struggling, young people are even more likely to have reason to run.

The 13-year-old girl who has called the Runaway Switchboard sounds even more anguished when McCormick tells there are no shelters in her area that will take her.

"So there's nowhere I can go?" she says in disbelief.

Several times McCormick asks about other options, but the girl says she has none.

She says her friends' parents would only take her back home. Relatives, whom she rarely sees, live out of state. And she seems even more afraid of her father than her mom, claiming that her parents divorced because he was abusive.

Even so, she has little doubt that one or both of her parents will soon be out looking for her.

That's not the case for many other runaways, who are thrown out of home for anything from being gay to exhibiting aggressive behavior.

"Ninety-eight percent of the time, it's the parents saying, `No, take them.' They're the throwaway kids," says Bill Hogan, program manager at the Haven W. Poe Runaway Shelter in Tampa, Fla. He recently reunited a 10-year-old boy with his grandmother, who had told police to keep him.

Neglect also has changed the face of the runaway, says Kathleen Boutin, executive director of the Nevada Partnership for Homeless Youth, which is getting more requests for help from children of methamphetamine addicts.

For those 12 to 18, Nevada now has a "Right to Shelter" law, which allows organizations to provide emergency housing, food and clothing without parental consent.

Indiana is another state that recently passed a comprehensive law for homeless youth with a similar provision, but limited the age to 16 and older.

"It's a beginning," says Cynthia Smith, executive director of the Youth Service Bureau in Evansville, Ind. Right now, her area has no youth shelter — but she hopes the new law will help change that.

In New York, however, a bill requiring safe-houses and other services for sexually exploited youth stalled in January. And in Wyoming, runaways often still spend the night in jail.

It's a mind-set that Rusty Booker, an 18-year-old former runaway from Louisville, Ky., hopes will change.

Last year, he told members of Congress how, at age 12, he ran away from an abusive home. He got help at a library affiliated with National Safe Place, an organization with more than 16,000 locations nationally where young people are put in touch with local crisis workers.

Still, many communities that want to establish Safe Places are turned down because they have few or no services to offer runaways.

Nine states have no Safe Places at all. That includes the home of the 13-year-old girl who was on the line with the Runaway Switchboard for more than an hour.

Several times, she adamantly refused to call the local sheriff or to get child protective services involved.

"All this stuff that's going on, it's just really overwhelming," she told McCormick, the call center volunteer. "I don't want my mom to go to jail. I can't do that to my family."

Eventually, though, she changed her mind. She asked McCormick to stay on the line while she spoke with a county social worker and then the sheriff.

"I've kind of run away from home," the girl told the sheriff's dispatch operator. "I need somewhere to stay."

McCormick waited on the line until a sheriff's deputy found her and picked her up. Finally, the girl was safe and members of the Runaway Switchboard staff looked relieved.

"You get used to some aspects of this," says Cori Ballew, a Runaway Switchboard supervisor who oversaw the call. "But you never get used to some of it, especially when it ends with no resolution."

Some runaways, like this one, find help of some kind, she says.

Others, faced with few choices, hang up

[RandomGuy]

But hey, fuck the poor. They made bad decisions, and it isn't MY problem, is it?

I mean, my money is my money, and the government shouldn't take it from me to do wasteful things like help abused children, that would be an entitlement, and we can't have that.

[RandomGuy]

If they really were worthwhile as human beings, they would have decent paying jobs and could take care of their kids.

Those kids won't ever grow up and be MY problem at all, so I can just ignore them.

[balli]

The worlds done. We got bad, white-trash parents breeding through the nose. I swear to god parents should have to take a test to go through with a pregancy. Or just outright ban breeding in red states.

[Don Quixote]

Heartrending. Yes, it's a bad situation for these kids, and we should try to get some help for them.

You have also managed to caricature the conservative perspective on the issue. I assure you that while orthodox (non-nutty) conservative are generally not in favor of welfare or more entitlement programs, this does not extend to helping poor and abused children. I would imagine that conservatives would generally favor some sort of federal (or state) funding for such emergency programs.

Also, the church has a vital role to play in charity. While we can safely say that, in America at least, poverty for the adult is generally the result of poor decisions or the lack of education, this does not apply to the children. And it's not for the church to judge anyway -- the church's role is to dispense God's grace.

A good book on the issue: Keller, Timothy J., Ministries of Mercy. This is an object of discussion in the evangelical community.

[boutons_]

"this does not extend to helping poor and abused children"

gotta link to a conservative manifesto with any humanitarian concerns?

[101A]

But hey, fuck the poor. They made bad decisions, and it isn't MY problem, is it?

I mean, my money is my money, and the government shouldn't take it from me to do wasteful things like help abused children, that would be an entitlement, and we can't have that.
The govt. helped create the problem.

The illegitimacy rate is through the roof since the war on poverty and its associated programs began in the 60's. "You get what you pay for" is a truism, and in this country we pay for single women out of work to have children. We get that. In spades. The cost in dollars for the welfare system is not the biggest problem; it's what that system has done to society that IS the problem.

Start another program; the children need it. Throw money at it, and you'll be able to sleep better at night knowing you did something.

I'm sure there won't be unintended cosequences.

You liberals self-righteousness is truly disgusting. You talk and act so high and mighty, when you never actually DO anything except feel bad, and vote left. Do you care if any problem is fixed, or what havoc the programs you espouse actually bring - no, you don't. You NEVER question the results; as long as the motives are pure. Then when there are more problems, you blame conservatives and start the process over again. You all suck.

[PixelPusher]

The govt. helped create the problem.

Either government policies can affect human behavior or they can't. You can't have it both ways.

[PixelPusher]

You liberals self-righteousness is truly disgusting. You talk and act so high and mighty, when you never actually DO anything except feel bad, and vote left. Do you care if any problem is fixed, or what havoc the programs you espouse actually bring - no, you don't. You NEVER question the results; as long as the motives are pure. Then when there are more problems, you blame conservatives and start the process over again. You all suck.
You conservative self-righteousness is truly disgusting. You talk and act so high and mighty, when you never actually DO anything except bitch about the wretched plebes, cut taxes and vote right. Do you care if any problem is fixed, or what havoc the ideologies you espouse actually bring - no, you don't. You NEVER question the results; as long as the motives are pure. Then when there are more problems, you blame liberals and start the process over again. You all suck.

[Ignignokt]

Cut and Paste moveon.org, something something, cut and paste moveon.org.

look idiot, no one says govt doesnt affect peoples behavior. 101a never said such thing.

why don't you actually read peoples post for once rather than being a defensive liberal bitch who has the need to always harp when no one gives a f7&c*.

[Ignignokt]

You conservative self-righteousness is truly disgusting. You talk and act so high and mighty, when you never actually DO anything except bitch about the wretched plebes, cut taxes and vote right. Do you care if any problem is fixed, or what havoc the ideologies you espouse actually bring - no, you don't. You NEVER question the results; as long as the motives are pure. Then when there are more problems, you blame liberals and start the process over again. You all suck.


you're right conservatives are guilty of such things too. but the subject right now is govt social funding, and you have nothing to offer or defend. You think throwing money is the solution.

So you want to give welfare to single mothers, yet not help with eliminating the root cause of the problem.

Throwing money, taking from the rich and spoiling the poor is your solution. YEt you don't want to offer away out of the ghettos, because you wont have such dependance.

Seriously, do you form oppinions based on silly emotions?

[balli]

you're right conservatives are guilty of such things too. but the subject right now is govt social funding, and you have nothing to offer or defend. You think throwing money is the solution.

So you want to give welfare to single mothers, yet not help with eliminating the root cause of the problem.

Throwing money, taking from the rich and spoiling the poor is your solution. YEt you don't want to offer away out of the ghettos, because you wont have such dependance.

Seriously, do you form oppinions based on silly emotions?

So if stealing too rich peoples' money is not the solution, what is? Abortion? Education? The wild hope that people wise up?

[PixelPusher]

So you want to give welfare to single mothers, yet not help with blah, blah, cut/paste redstate.org...Throwing money, taking from the rich and spoiling the poor blah, blah cut/paste redstate.org..you don't want to offer away out of the ghettos, because you wont have such dependance blah, blah...

[xrayzebra]

I still fail to understand why people think government is the
answer to all our problems. Charity is not the governments job.
It is our job. And those of you who think it isn't and the government
should take care of all these poor people ought to reach down and
take a few of those bucks you spend on pot and other drugs and
give it to a charity that helps these folks. Hell, most of the
government money is spent on administration, at some fine
salaries I might add, instead of those who need it. So quit
whining and give a little money. Or do like SA210, at least
she puts her money and effort where her mouth is, on the
homeless. Although she still wants government money to
help her......

[BonnerDynasty]

So if stealing too rich peoples' money is not the solution, what is? Abortion? Education? The wild hope that people wise up?


Darwinism.

[ChuckD]

So if stealing too rich peoples' money is not the solution, what is? Abortion? Education? The wild hope that people wise up?
Bird Flu.

[SAGambler]

But hey, fuck the poor. They made bad decisions, and it isn't MY problem, is it?

I mean, my money is my money, and the government shouldn't take it from me to do wasteful things like help abused children, that would be an entitlement, and we can't have that.

Who in the hell says a kid has to come from a "poor" home, to have a reason to run away?

See, anytime you want another entitlement, you pull out the "poor" card, which is very similar to the "race" card. Something to be used to arouse emotions in people. And if you can use "both cards", all the better.

Why do liberals always think the only answer is to "toss more money at it"?

[RandomGuy]

Heartrending. Yes, it's a bad situation for these kids, and we should try to get some help for them.

You have also managed to caricature the conservative perspective on the issue. I assure you that while orthodox (non-nutty) conservative are generally not in favor of welfare or more entitlement programs, this does not extend to helping poor and abused children. I would imagine that conservatives would generally favor some sort of federal (or state) funding for such emergency programs.

Also, the church has a vital role to play in charity. While we can safely say that, in America at least, poverty for the adult is generally the result of poor decisions or the lack of education, this does not apply to the children. And it's not for the church to judge anyway -- the church's role is to dispense God's grace.

A good book on the issue: Keller, Timothy J., Ministries of Mercy. This is an object of discussion in the evangelical community.

"caricature the conservative perspective"

Guilty as charged, and quite intentional, obviously.

The sad part is that it is less of a caricature than one might think. All sorts of conservatives and Ron Paul nuts seem to think that getting rid of all government programs would somehow be a panacea for all of society's ills, but when you ask them how much money they give to charity, they give you a blank stare, and say "its MY money".

To be sure, conservatives have valid concerns about entitlement programs, (abuse, dependency) but would throw out the baby with the bathwater. Any system will be abused, just as any system will have someone who will get dependent on it.

The point is that there is a genuine need for such social safety nets for a variety of moral and economic reasons, much similar to the reasons we have for life vests on ships.

Not many who consider themselves "conservatives" would actually admit this. People, sadly, don't like to give "the other side" any credit for valid points.

[RandomGuy]

Who in the hell says a kid has to come from a "poor" home, to have a reason to run away?

See, anytime you want another entitlement, you pull out the "poor" card, which is very similar to the "race" card. Something to be used to arouse emotions in people. And if you can use "both cards", all the better.

Why do liberals always think the only answer is to "toss more money at it"?

Like it or not, poverty is a predictor for all sorts of negative things.

Why do conservatives think the only answer is to ignore problems?

[RandomGuy]

Charity is not the governments job.

If that is the case, then we should let all the prisoners out of jail immediately.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I still fail to understand why people think government is the
answer to all our problems. Charity is not the governments job.
It is our job. And those of you who think it isn't and the government
should take care of all these poor people ought to reach down and
take a few of those bucks you spend on pot and other drugs and
give it to a charity that helps these folks. Hell, most of the
government money is spent on administration, at some fine
salaries I might add, instead of those who need it. So quit
whining and give a little money. Or do like SA210, at least
she puts her money and effort where her mouth is, on the
homeless. Although she still wants government money to
help her......


I have yet to see one poster here on Spurstalk mention that govt is the cure/answer for all problems.. maybe if I keep looking I will find it..

[101A]

"caricature the conservative perspective"

Guilty as charged, and quite intentional, obviously.

The sad part is that it is less of a caricature than one might think. All sorts of conservatives and Ron Paul nuts seem to think that getting rid of all government programs would somehow be a panacea for all of society's ills, but when you ask them how much money they give to charity, they give you a blank stare, and say "its MY money".

Look up the John Stossel expose on who gives in this country; Christian Conservatives give BY FAR more of their income to charity than other people. (Also the U.S. is far and away the largest provider of private international aid in the world). The least charitable big city in the nation by %? San Francisco.

Could it be that liberals vote and support the programs they do out of personal guilt of not doing enough THEMSELVES?

[101A]

I have yet to see one poster here on Spurstalk mention that govt is the cure/answer for all problems.. maybe if I keep looking I will find it..I sure read many posts from people who don't ever believe the government should have LESS of a role in social programs and wealth redistribution.

If there are programs they don't support, they certainly don't make it apparent.

[101A]

Like it or not, poverty is a predictor for all sorts of negative things.

Why do conservatives think the only answer is to ignore problems?Who the hell wants to ignore problems here?

Also, who is ignoring the FACT that despite MUCH attention given to the problem of poverty by the government, the problem continues unabated - and begets other problems?

I would say YOU are ignoring the problem, I'd like to have a dialogue how best to actually SOVLVE it. However, whenever a conservative attempts to begin that dialogue, they are shouted down as being uncaring - simply because we mention that what we are currently doing doesn't really seem to be working, and doing more of the same MIGHT not be a good idea!

[xrayzebra]

Who the hell wants to ignore problems here?

Also, who is ignoring the FACT that despite MUCH attention given to the problem of poverty by the government, the problem continues unabated - and begets other problems?

I would say YOU are ignoring the problem, I'd like to have a dialogue how best to actually SOVLVE it. However, whenever a conservative attempts to begin that dialogue, they are shouted down as being uncaring - simply because we mention that what we are currently doing doesn't really seem to be working, and doing more of the same MIGHT not be a good idea!


I agree 100 percent.

[2centsworth]

Like it or not, poverty is a predictor for all sorts of negative things.

Why do conservatives think the only answer is to ignore problems?
conservatives and christians are way more charitable than the lefties, so maybe you guys should look within.

[clambake]

conservatives and christians are way more charitable than the lefties, so maybe you guys should look within.
true. hagee just gave the jews 6-9 million.

i know, i know, you're thinking he did it for no other than a charitable donation. :lol

[2centsworth]

btw Random Guy, you're a perfect example of what's wrong with the entitlements program. You are someone who's perfectly healthy and perfectly able, but still chose to collect welfare because as you said "to spend more time with your kid".

Clambake, you're a dork.

[clambake]

btw Random Guy, you're a perfect example of what's wrong with the entitlements program. You are someone who's perfectly healthy and perfectly able, but still chose to collect welfare because as you said "to spend more time with your kid".

Clambake, you're a dork.
what? jews don't have kids?

that's what you shoulda said.

[2centsworth]

what? jews don't have kids?

that's what you shoulda said.
Like most people, I don't read your post.

[clambake]

Like most people, I don't read your post.
we didn't just share a conversation?

[RandomGuy]

conservatives and christians are way more charitable than the lefties, so maybe you guys should look within.

You make two false assumptions here.

1)"Lefties" cannot be christians.
2) I am not a christian.

Both are wrong, and that is why you fail, padawan.

[RandomGuy]

You liberals self-righteousness is truly disgusting. You talk and act so high and mighty, when you never actually DO anything except feel bad, and vote left. Do you care if any problem is fixed, or what havoc the programs you espouse actually bring - no, you don't. You NEVER question the results; as long as the motives are pure. Then when there are more problems, you blame conservatives and start the process over again. You all suck.

Your conservative self-righteousness is truly disgusting. You talk and act so high and mighty, when you never actually DO anything except bitch about the wretched plebes, cut taxes and vote right. Do you care if any problem is fixed, or what havoc the ideologies you espouse actually bring - no, you don't. You NEVER question the results; as long as the end justifies the means. Then when there are more problems, you blame liberals and start the process over again. You all suck.

[RandomGuy]

Why do liberals always think the only answer is to "toss more money at it"?

This is something of a distortion.

I am all about cost to benefit.

If the cost is X, and the benefit is X + Y, then hell yes I want to toss money at a problem. I think of such things as investments that earn returns over time.

Money spent on such things does not, despite what many on the right seem to think, disappear down a hole. It simply recirculates into the wider economy.

It also has the effects of alleviating human misery, an aim to which neither liberals nor conservatives would find unworthy.

The only thing that "liberals" and "conservatives" really disagree on is the method by which human misery should be alleviated.

Conservatives generally tend to think that charities can fix everything and government nothing.

If you actually look into cost to benefit ratios for charities (http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=content.view&cpid=48), you find that they have waaay more overhead than a lot of the programs the government runs.

For all those who complain about the government wasting their money, how many of you actually bother to research the charities you give to?

[101A]

I am all about cost to benefit.
Then you should be against any and ALL government programs!!! The fed can't get a dollar's value out of a Benjamin!!

[101A]

This is something of a distortion.

I am all about cost to benefit.

If the cost is X, and the benefit is X + Y, then hell yes I want to toss money at a problem. I think of such things as investments that earn returns over time.

Money spent on such things does not, despite what many on the right seem to think, disappear down a hole. It simply recirculates into the wider economy.

It also has the effects of alleviating human misery, an aim to which neither liberals nor conservatives would find unworthy.

The only thing that "liberals" and "conservatives" really disagree on is the method by which human misery should be alleviated.

Conservatives generally tend to think that charities can fix everything and government nothing.

If you actually look into cost to benefit ratios for charities (http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=content.view&cpid=48), you find that they have waaay more overhead than a lot of the programs the government runs.

For all those who complain about the government wasting their money, how many of you actually bother to research the charities you give to?
I never said charities could fix everything (I actually don't assume everything can be fixed).

BTW. I already had a Charity checker bookmarked; and I use it.

You got any links to the great efficiency of the federal government? Bet I can find some pretty quick that show its inefficiency.

Let's start with the cost/benefit of my Social Security vs. my 401K!

[101A]

Your conservative self-righteousness is truly disgusting. You talk and act so high and mighty, when you never actually DO anything except bitch about the wretched plebes, cut taxes and vote right. Do you care if any problem is fixed, or what havoc the ideologies you espouse actually bring - no, you don't. You NEVER question the results; as long as the end justifies the means. Then when there are more problems, you blame liberals and start the process over again. You all suck.Finally, I don't bitch about the wretched plebes...I bitch about the government and liberals that conspire to keep them that way - and increase their numbers.

[RandomGuy]

btw Random Guy, you're a perfect example of what's wrong with the entitlements program. You are someone who's perfectly healthy and perfectly able, but still chose to collect welfare because as you said "to spend more time with your kid".

Clambake, you're a dork.

Wrongo.

My family collected "food stamps" after I was laid off from a job, and my wife was caring for our first child and couldn't work. Texas' "welfare" benefits, had we qualified for them, would have amounted to $230 bucks per month.

I spent very nearly 30 hours a week on a job hunt for several months trying to find a decent job that would pay the bills. Eventually I had to settle for some part-time work to help pay costs, but that pay was waaay inadequate. We are still, years later, paying off the debt from this.

We got off assistance as soon as we could when I found a job, and my wife returned to work when our first was old enough to put in daycare.

I remarked that it was good to have spent a little extra time helping the wife out, and being there for the first few months, and I guess I could have spent even more time looking for a job.

I also suppose that I "chose" not to work 2 or 3 low-paying, easy-to-get part time/full time jobs, and stopped looking for something better paying, but in the end, neither society, nor my family would have benefitted from such a comprimise, as I would have been unable to finish graduate school, and get onto a career track.

Such an attitude towards entitlement programs is just what is wrong with being a judgmental fucktard. You automatically assume that everyone on them is "abusing" the system, and tend to have selective memories about things.

Your short-sightedness when it comes to seeing human potential is precisely why I think the majority of conservative thinking is bad for our country economically.

We as a nation, can either toss people that life preserver, and allow them to get back onto the boat or let them drown.

I am now paying my share back into the system, and my wife is finishing up her degree. Neither of which would have been possible, if we had stayed on the 2.5 job each treadmill.

All you see is some moral judgment where you can feel better about yourself, and miss how immoral and counterproductive that is in the end

[RandomGuy]

I never said charities could fix everything (I actually don't assume everything can be fixed).

BTW. I already had a Charity checker bookmarked; and I use it.

You got any links to the great efficiency of the federal government? Bet I can find some pretty quick that show its inefficiency.

Let's start with the cost/benefit of my Social Security vs. my 401K!

Social security spends less than 2% of the funds it takes in on administrative overhead. The rest goes directly to payments.

As for your 401k:

The instant you try and compare SS to your 401k, you show that you don't understand one of the most basic concepts of investing.

Name the two most important principles/concepts of finance.

[101A]

Wrongo.

My family collected "food stamps" after I was laid off from a job, and my wife was caring for our first child and couldn't work. Texas' "welfare" benefits, had we qualified for them, would have amounted to $230 bucks per month.

I spent very nearly 30 hours a week on a job hunt for several months trying to find a decent job that would pay the bills. Eventually I had to settle for some part-time work to help pay costs, but that pay was waaay inadequate. We are still, years later, paying off the debt from this.

We got off assistance as soon as we could when I found a job, and my wife returned to work when our first was old enough to put in daycare.

I remarked that it was good to have spent a little extra time helping the wife out, and being there for the first few months, and I guess I could have spent even more time looking for a job.

I also suppose that I "chose" not to work 2 or 3 low-paying, easy-to-get part time/full time jobs, and stopped looking for something better paying, but in the end, neither society, nor my family would have benefitted from such a comprimise, as I would have been unable to finish graduate school, and get onto a career track.

Such an attitude towards entitlement programs is just what is wrong with being a judgmental fucktard. You automatically assume that everyone on them is "abusing" the system, and tend to have selective memories about things.

Your short-sightedness when it comes to seeing human potential is precisely why I think the majority of conservative thinking is bad for our country economically.

We as a nation, can either toss people that life preserver, and allow them to get back onto the boat or let them drown.

I am now paying my share back into the system, and my wife is finishing up her degree. Neither of which would have been possible, if we had stayed on the 2.5 job each treadmill.

All you see is some moral judgment where you can feel better about yourself, and miss how immoral and counterproductive that is in the endMy brother in law is a recovering crack addict: 36 years old.

He is also an insulin dependent diabetic (since he was 14). Because of his disease and gross abuse of his body for the past 15 years, he has been receiving dialysis treatments for the past 3. Three times a week $1,300 per treatment. Social Security pays for the dialysis. Texas Medicaid pays for the rest of his medical care. He gets $750 (net) per month from Social Security for disability). He hasn't held a full time job in 15 years, and only held one for 6 months in his entire "career".

He is not on the Kidney transplant list, because he is afraid that after he gets his transplant he won't qualify for Social Security Disability anymore, and since he is a convicted felon (hot checks) - he won't be able to get a job - he considers blue collar work "beneath" him.

He is filing an income tax return this year specifically so that he can collect his share of the stimulus package.

He is off of drugs, and is relatively healthy. We moved furniture together, and played some ball this past weekend while I was in Texas (he just had some retinal surgery to correct his cataracts and relieve pressure - his eyesight is now 20/20 uncorrected - and he can drive).

He could conceivably go on like this for another 30 - 40 years. As he said, "My quality of life isn't bad at all".

[2centsworth]

RandomGuy is gonna go the rest of his life trying to justify his laziness. Go Welfare!

I have no problem helping the absolute down trodden, but lazy people like RandomGuy get on my nerves.

[101A]

Social security spends less than 2% of the funds it takes in on administrative overhead. The rest goes directly to payments.

As for your 401k:

The instant you try and compare SS to your 401k, you show that you don't understand one of the most basic concepts of investing.

Name the two most important principles/concepts of finance.#1. Buy Low.

#2 Sell High

(and my CFO - a CPA for the past 30 years calls bullshit on your question, btw - says get out of a book, pass the exam and get a good job).

Great, 2% of what they are taking in is going to. blah blah blah

The sumbitch is going broke!!!!! They take 15% of my money, and I won't get a fraction of that back!!!!! I am gonna get MORE out of my 401K than I put in!!!

I don't care how much "payments" they are making; the fact is they are paying more than they are taking in!!!! Any they are taking in a whole hell of a lot. That is the point!!!

Now I've got to go to an interview for a new Controller I'm hiring. Just doing my part to boost the economy.

[2centsworth]

Wrongo.

My family collected "food stamps" after I was laid off from a job, and my wife was caring for our first child and couldn't work. Texas' "welfare" benefits, had we qualified for them, would have amounted to $230 bucks per month.

I spent very nearly 30 hours a week on a job hunt for several months trying to find a decent job that would pay the bills. Eventually I had to settle for some part-time work to help pay costs, but that pay was waaay inadequate. We are still, years later, paying off the debt from this.

We got off assistance as soon as we could when I found a job, and my wife returned to work when our first was old enough to put in daycare.

I remarked that it was good to have spent a little extra time helping the wife out, and being there for the first few months, and I guess I could have spent even more time looking for a job.

I also suppose that I "chose" not to work 2 or 3 low-paying, easy-to-get part time/full time jobs, and stopped looking for something better paying, but in the end, neither society, nor my family would have benefitted from such a comprimise, as I would have been unable to finish graduate school, and get onto a career track.

Such an attitude towards entitlement programs is just what is wrong with being a judgmental fucktard. You automatically assume that everyone on them is "abusing" the system, and tend to have selective memories about things.

Your short-sightedness when it comes to seeing human potential is precisely why I think the majority of conservative thinking is bad for our country economically.

We as a nation, can either toss people that life preserver, and allow them to get back onto the boat or let them drown.

I am now paying my share back into the system, and my wife is finishing up her degree. Neither of which would have been possible, if we had stayed on the 2.5 job each treadmill.

All you see is some moral judgment where you can feel better about yourself, and miss how immoral and counterproductive that is in the end

my man, I employ people, I have two kids, and I worked many part-time menial jobs. Never once did I free load the system like you.

[George Gervin's Afro]

my man, I employ people, I have two kids, and I worked many part-time menial jobs. Never once did I free load the system like you.



free load = unemployment benefits.. weigh kids eating vs not eating..tough choice..

[George Gervin's Afro]

RandomGuy is gonna go the rest of his life trying to justify his laziness. Go Welfare!

I have no problem helping the absolute down trodden, but lazy people like RandomGuy get on my nerves.


have your parents been lazy freeloaders, I mean accept their social security benefits?

[RandomGuy]

As for your 401k:

The instant you try and compare SS to your 401k, you show that you don't understand one of the most basic concepts of investing.

Name the two most important principles/concepts of finance.


#1. Buy Low.

#2 Sell High

(and my CFO - a CPA for the past 30 years calls bullshit on your question, btw - says get out of a book, pass the exam and get a good job).

Great, 2% of what they are taking in is going to. blah blah blah

The sumbitch is going broke!!!!! They take 15% of my money, and I won't get a fraction of that back!!!!! I am gonna get MORE out of my 401K than I put in!!!

I don't care how much "payments" they are making; the fact is they are paying more than they are taking in!!!! Any they are taking in a whole hell of a lot. That is the point!!!

Now I've got to go to an interview for a new Controller I'm hiring. Just doing my part to boost the economy.

If he is a CFO and he can't name

"time value of money"

and

"risk=return"

as two of the most important principles of finance off the top of his head, maybe I should have HIS job.

If you end up trying to compare two different types of cash flows without acknowledging that they have different risk profiles, such as SS and a 401k, you don't know as much about finance as you think you do.

Buy low and sell high. :clap :clap :clap

Get that from a Kirosawa book or something?

[RandomGuy]

RandomGuy is gonna go the rest of his life trying to justify his laziness. Go Welfare!

I have no problem helping the absolute down trodden, but lazy people like RandomGuy get on my nerves.

:rolleyes

Yeah, 30+ hours a week looking for a job, 15 hours helping care for an infant, and 20+ hours a week at a part time job was "lazy".

(shrugs)

You are simply trying to get my goat, and only succeeding in showing that you don't understand the economic concept of opportunity costs. For someone who says they run a business, you should know better.

Further, if all you want to do is feel better about yourself, have at it, I hope it works for you, really, but don't expect any further comment from me to help you pump up your ego.

[RandomGuy]

Speaking of work, time to get back to it. ;) See y'all tomorrow.

[2centsworth]

If he is a CFO and he can't name

"time value of money"

and

"risk=return"

as two of the most important principles of finance off the top of his head, maybe I should have HIS job.

If you end up trying to compare two different types of cash flows without acknowledging that they have different risk profiles, such as SS and a 401k, you don't know as much about finance as you think you do.

Buy low and sell high. :clap :clap :clap

Get that from a Kirosawa book or something?
to be so self-absorbed to think you know the two most important pricipals of finance is laughable. btw, you getting the CFO position cracks me up.:lol In your free-loader dreams.

[2centsworth]

:rolleyes

Yeah, 30+ hours a week looking for a job Hunting is always better than getting for the lazy person. Instead of working at a restaurant or something I guess you decided it was better to free-load and blame the corporations.


, 15 hours helping care for an infant, and 20+ hours a week at a part time job was "lazy". wow a whole 65 hours a week working...ugh looking for a job, caring for a kid and working. Wow, such a hard worker.:drunk

(shrugs)


You are simply trying to get my goat, and only succeeding in showing that you don't understand the economic concept of opportunity costs. For someone who says they run a business, you should know better.
I know there's no subsittue for hard work. You instead are full of excuses and are way too full of yourself for being in the payroll department.



Further, if all you want to do is feel better about yourself, have at it, I hope it works for you, really, but don't expect any further comment from me to help you pump up your ego. coming from the guy who thinks he invented finance, that's funny. Please tell us again how free-loading the goverment makes the world better? Something about opportunity cost? Learn something about values bub.

[RandomGuy]

This message is hidden because 2centsworth is on your ignore list.


ahhhh blissful "silence"... ;)

Once someone has proven that they don't really have anything worth paying attention to, it makes for an easy decision, doesn't it?

ok, now I am truly out of here. Laters.

Talk to the hand, twocents...

[2centsworth]

ahhhh blissful "silence"... ;)

Once someone has proven that they don't really have anything worth paying attention to, it makes for an easy decision, doesn't it?

ok, now I am truly out of here. Laters.

Talk to the hand, twocents...
truth hurts.

[101A]

If he is a CFO and he can't name

"time value of money"

and

"risk=return"

as two of the most important principles of finance off the top of his head, maybe I should have HIS job.

If you end up trying to compare two different types of cash flows without acknowledging that they have different risk profiles, such as SS and a 401k, you don't know as much about finance as you think you do.

Buy low and sell high. :clap :clap :clap

Get that from a Kirosawa book or something?"Principals of Finance" is a concept from a book; dude is working with real books. Thirty years after you've passed all 4 parts (assuming you ever do), we'll see if that recitation rolls off the tongue.

Social Security and 401K are designed to do the same thing; provide for people in their retirement. The SSA has an "account" with my name on it, that I pay in to. For years it was sold to citizens as their money, for THEIR use when they retire. Don't believe me? Talk to a 70 or 80 something, and that's what you'll hear. We haven't been hit over the head with it, because since the '70's it has been quite apparent that what it has been, cannot continue to be. It's now simply a tax and untouchable entitlement program - whose costs and unfunded liabilities are growing at a frightening pace.

[101A]

ahhhh blissful "silence"... ;)

Once someone has proven that they don't really have anything worth paying attention to, it makes for an easy decision, doesn't it?

ok, now I am truly out of here. Laters.

Talk to the hand, twocents...Weak.

[2centsworth]

Weak.
let the CFO know what Lenny in payroll thinks.

[clambake]

hey, if you're hanging out with that freeloader brother-in-law, then you are an enabler. why haven't you done something to rid our beautiful country of this burden?

right now, everyday, as we speak, the american public is paying iraqis not to kill us. why don't you bitch about the system we set up over there? because it's easier to pick on starving children?

2centsworth........sounds about right.

[2centsworth]

why don't you bitch about the system we set up over there? because it's easier to pick on starving children?

2centsworth........sounds about right.
oh yeah, i love to pick on starving children. Are you really this big of an idiot in real life?

[RandomGuy]

Weak.

(shrugs)

When someone is more interested in pumping their own ego than in whether they have a logical or moral leg to stand on, I have other things to do than feed that ego, sorry.

If all someone wants is to trade insults the troll forum is that-away, or for that matter, the nearest junior high school is this-away...

[clambake]

oh yeah, i love to pick on starving children. Are you really this big of an idiot in real life?
your whole argument is based on what you consider to be needless spending.

but then again, it isn't.

[101A]

hey, if you're hanging out with that freeloader brother-in-law, then you are an enabler. Nope, it was my check he forged that ultimately got him in jail...I pressed charges.

Freeloader is as freeloader does. I don't blame him, I blame the government. It is the enabler.

[2centsworth]

When someone is more interested in pumping their own ego than in whether they have a logical or moral leg to stand on, I have other things to do than feed that ego, sorry.this coming from someone who has boiled finance down to two major points. hahaha

all I've done is expose you for the free-loader that you are which means your "moral lleg" was cut off.

[SPARKY]

But hey, fuck the poor. They made bad decisions, and it isn't MY problem, is it?

I mean, my money is my money, and the government shouldn't take it from me to do wasteful things like help abused children, that would be an entitlement, and we can't have that.


So I use my money which I earn to provide for my family and be charitable as I see fit.

I don't need a politician to make myself charitable or responsible.

[2centsworth]

So I use my money which I earn to provide for my family and be charitable as I see fit.

I don't need a politician to make myself charitable or responsible.
randomguy is the charity.

[Purple & Gold]

What's funny is that Repubs don't even realize that helping the poor/underprivileged is actually to their advantage. Since I know all they care about is how something affects them and not about whether it's the humane thing to do or not.

The longer you take advantage/shit on somebody the more desperate you make them. The more desperate somebody is, the higher the chance is that said person would commit a violent crime. It's not like they feel they have anything to lose. You may think that's them/their problem and it doesn't affect you, but you are more closely intertwined with them than you think. If that violent crime is committed against you or somebody you love, only then will you realize how close to home these issues really are.

[SPARKY]

What's funny is that Repubs don't even realize that helping the poor/underprivileged is actually to their advantage. Since I know all they care about is how something affects them and not about whether it's the humane thing to do or not.

Because "helping the poor" only occurs when someone votes. It's all about the image and nothing about the reality. Because you support a politician who advocates government run charity then you are "humane." Nevermind if you've never actually helped anyone else out of your own good will. You vote, therefore you are.



The longer you take advantage/shit on somebody the more desperate you make them.

Oh yes, we are all responsible for 'taking advantage' of the poor.

How about you log off and go help the poor for a change?

[gtownspur]

im a defensive :donkey


that's fine you should have wrote the part of where i thought you were a mindless leftist shill and idiot who fails at reading comprehension in light of this thread.

[xrayzebra]

What's funny is that Repubs don't even realize that helping the poor/underprivileged is actually to their advantage. Since I know all they care about is how something affects them and not about whether it's the humane thing to do or not.

The longer you take advantage/shit on somebody the more desperate you make them. The more desperate somebody is, the higher the chance is that said person would commit a violent crime. It's not like they feel they have anything to lose. You may think that's them/their problem and it doesn't affect you, but you are more closely intertwined with them than you think. If that violent crime is committed against you or somebody you love, only then will you realize how close to home these issues really are.


The government, us, has helped the poor, disadvantaged,
and whatever to the tune of trillions of dollars. Now you
want to tell me what neighborhoods have the highest
crime rates, prey on their fellow neighbors and have
most of the gangs.

You remind me of those that say Jesus was a Liberal.
Wrong he was a Conservative. He never said anything
about government helping the poor. As a matter of
fact he said render unto Caesar what is his. And for
the private citizen to help the poor.

[gtownspur]

You make two false assumptions here.

1)"Lefties" cannot be christians.
2) I am not a christian.

Both are wrong, and that is why you fail, padawan.


Well you certainly are a lefty,

and you just admitted you're a freeloader,

and since freeloaders are hardly ever in a position to be charitable since they don't have anything to give, you just proved 2cent's assumptions correctly.

[RandomGuy]

"Principals of Finance" is a concept from a book; dude is working with real books. Thirty years after you've passed all 4 parts (assuming you ever do), we'll see if that recitation rolls off the tongue.

Social Security and 401K are designed to do the same thing; provide for people in their retirement. The SSA has an "account" with my name on it, that I pay in to. For years it was sold to citizens as their money, for THEIR use when they retire. Don't believe me? Talk to a 70 or 80 something, and that's what you'll hear. We haven't been hit over the head with it, because since the '70's it has been quite apparent that what it has been, cannot continue to be. It's now simply a tax and untouchable entitlement program - whose costs and unfunded liabilities are growing at a frightening pace.

PrincipLES of finance are indeed concepts that one first learns from a book. They are also used every day by CEOs and CFOs in all sorts of things.

If you can't tell the difference between 10,000 today and 12,000 five years from now, you aren't doing your shareholders much good.

[smeagol]

If conservatives are so worried about "wasting" money in social programs, why aren't they preocupied with wasting money in Iraq?

Something is not adding up . . .

[2centsworth]

If conservatives are so worried about "wasting" money in social programs, why aren't they preocupied with wasting money in Iraq?

Something is not adding up . . .
we are, but the spending in Iraq is equivalent to someone on the verge of bankruptcy worrying ablout the cable bill. The abuse of entitlement programs by people like Randomguy is what's bankrupting this country. He thinks entitlement programs are a way for him to avoid hard labor.

[smeagol]

we are.

You are.

Most other conservatives on this board aren't.

[clambake]

we are, but the spending in Iraq is equivalent to someone on the verge of bankruptcy worrying ablout the cable bill. The abuse of entitlement programs by people like Randomguy is what's bankrupting this country. He thinks entitlement programs are a way for him to avoid hard labor.
:lol 2cents doesn't understand the iraq affair IS an entitlement program.

[2centsworth]

:lol 2cents doesn't understand the iraq affair IS an entitlement program.
ok, the defense budget now falls in the entitlements category. You are one weird weirdo.

[George Gervin's Afro]

:lol 2cents doesn't understand the iraq affair IS an entitlement program.


no. they are simply a bunch of freeloaders who want avoid hard labor..

sincerely,

.02

[clambake]

ok, the defense budget now falls in the entitlements category. You are one weird weirdo.
I'd have to say you're challenged.
9 billion $ missing :lol
500k+ firearms missing :lol
no money to be made in blowing up mud huts in kabul :lol

if you think this isn't entitlements for the rich then you are that fucking stupid.

sorry. I'll just call you challenged.

[101A]

PrincipLES of finance are indeed concepts that one first learns from a book. They are also used every day by CEOs and CFOs in all sorts of things.

If you can't tell the difference between 10,000 today and 12,000 five years from now, you aren't doing your shareholders much good.
Shareholders?

There's 1,000 shares; 500 for me, 500 for my brother.

We're doing fine, thank you.

You're concepts are silly. My CERTIFIED PUBLIC ACCOUNTANT CFO is competent as hell; has been there, done that, been president of a bank in San Antonio, and now works for me.

Where will you be lecturing? I'll make sure he shows up for some C/E credits.

[101A]

You are.

Most other conservatives on this board aren't.Count me as one that is, also.

But, ultimately, the cost of Iraq is a burden we, as a nation, have to bear.

[101A]

I'd have to say you're challenged.
9 billion $ missing :lol
500k+ firearms missing :lol
no money to be made in blowing up mud huts in kabul :lol

if you think this isn't entitlements for the rich then you are that fucking stupid.

sorry. I'll just call you challenged.You can call it waste, corruption, even graft.

Entitlements it isn't.

I have a feeling you don't know what is meant by "entitlement" program; and why so many of us are SO discouraged by their growth; that leads, ultimately, to our country's bankruptcy.

[Nbadan]

I have yet to see one poster here on Spurstalk mention that govt is the cure/answer for all problems.. maybe if I keep looking I will find it..


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