Kidd Trade - Good or bad?

[Allanon]

It's not AS bad though right? That black hole that is the JET sometimes is frustrating...it's not like he's doing exploratory runs into the paint or looking for cutters...he just dribbles around the outside for a bit.

I think your Mavs team finally is moving the ball much better and they won't fold in crunch time....the biggest knock on the Mavs in prior years. I don't think Kidd is the "championship" missing piece but he's made the Mavs better.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

I am sorry, did you say something?

DD
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2384429&postcount=194

ROFL

[DaDakota]

It's not AS bad though right? That black hole that is the JET sometimes is frustrating...it's not like he's doing exploratory runs into the paint or looking for cutters...he just dribbles around the outside for a bit.

I think your Mavs team finally is moving the ball much better and they won't fold in crunch time....the biggest knock on the Mavs in prior years. I don't think Kidd is the "championship" missing piece but he's made the Mavs better.

A fairly well reasoned post, and one I would agree with if it was 4 years ago, but now that Kidd can't shoot and other teams don't even have to honor him.....it makes the trade bad, IMHO.

DD

[Audio 2]

Ha dirks never been that short of leader! Thats well documented. What this team needed was a point guard The great teams had it ... and the mavs didn't.

People have been saying that of dirk for years. Ever wonder why some of his best years were with Nash at the point? Devin is not a point. He tries but in 3 years it hasn't panned out. This team tried too hard to convert baskets this year and that was hugely in part to not having a point guard running the show. When Kidd got here they got easy transition baskets and when they didn't score off the initial thrust, they got mismatches from the push in transition that led to easy baskets. this team doesn't struggle on offense now. And now the defense is starting to pick up significantly.

Just as the playoffs are starting ti roll around.

Oh yeah and about the chemistry thing, Devin's been here longer so his record will be a lil higher. Given Kidd that same stretch next year and we'll talk.

[DaDakota]

Audio,

I hear ya !!

I just think you are wrong....Devin is just coming into his prime, whereas Kidd left his behind a few years back.

Although I would take him over Alston if he were in a wheel chair.

DD

[mavsfan1000]

Ha dirks never been that short of leader! Thats well documented. What this team needed was a point guard The great teams had it ... and the mavs didn't.

People have been saying that of dirk for years. Ever wonder why some of his best years were with Nash at the point? Devin is not a point. He tries but in 3 years it hasn't panned out. This team tried too hard to convert baskets this year and that was hugely in part to not having a point guard running the show. When Kidd got here they got easy transition baskets and when they didn't score off the initial thrust, they got mismatches from the push in transition that led to easy baskets. this team doesn't struggle on offense now. And now the defense is starting to pick up significantly.

Just as the playoffs are starting ti roll around.

Oh yeah and about the chemistry thing, Devin's been here longer so his record will be a lil higher. Given Kidd that same stretch next year and we'll talk.
Since when needing a pure point become a requisite to success in the playoffs? Billups, Fisher, Jason Williams, Parker, and Steve Kerr are not pure point guards. They were great spot up shooters and slashers. Kidd can only hit open 3's at this point in his career and can't slash when his defender is in front of him in the half court.

[Audio 2]

all i have to say is Jordan, Kobe, Wade, Shaq, Duncan all guards except for 2 of the greatest center in NBA history ...

Billups is a true point NOW. jason is very streaky and a defensive liability. Kerr was an excellent bus driver. But then again his only job was to hit open shots. Fisher is a very small 2 guard. But again, all he had to do was play tough and hit open shots. These weren.t called to run a team. But Kidd was. parker, just now is starting to shoot a lil bit better, but he still can be slowed a lot in the half court. He's much better in transition and defense.

[ludda]

I think the biggest plus is that Dirk is playing much better, but that could also be partly due to the fact that he gives a shit now whereas I remember early in the season, everyone was talking about him declining and forever impaired by the GS series.

On the other hand, Kidd from what I've seen, is still rendered useless in many of their halfcourt situations, and the Mavs still too dependent on the ISO with Dirk late in games.

[Obstructed_View]

The only way the Kidd trade is good is if the Mavericks win the championship this year or next.

Dirk was playing well before the trade. Dirk's injury was what finally made Howard play better. The only player that improved significantly by the trade is Dampier. The Mavs were 23-6 against the western conference before the Kidd trade, and have probably have the best record in the NBA since Harris came back from injury toward the end of 2006. I think the Mavericks were in position for first round HCA before the trade, and now they are battling just to make the playoffs. The only silver lining is that they can't take any games off at the end of the season and enter the playoffs in a funk.

If the Mavs start to play defense and dominate the boards, which were the focus when AJ took over and the team suddenly got good, they will have a chance in the playoffs. Unless that happens, they'll be lucky to win two games in any first round series.

[monosylab1k]

Dirk was playing well before the trade.
Um, excuse me?

He was averaging around 22 points a game, shooting below 30% from the three point line, and if you watched the games you'd have seen his body language which was total shit. He looked like a guy who didn't believe in his team. Now things are way different. Dirk was completely reenergized by this trade.

[Obstructed_View]

Um, excuse me?

He was averaging around 22 points a game, shooting below 30% from the three point line, and if you watched the games you'd have seen his body language which was total shit. He looked like a guy who didn't believe in his team. Now things are way different. Dirk was completely reenergized by this trade.
I watched the games, and he started going more forcefully into the paint, drawing contact and really working to dictate the game a month before the trade. I never said he played well the whole season before the trade. Dirk leads by example, and I thought that he was trying to set it, and began doing so while Harris and Diop were still on the team. I'd bet that his free throw attempts per game went up at that point, but you can confirm that for me.

It's possible that he was reenergized by the trade rumors, and you are welcome to make up any justification you like, but Dirk is well aware that a major factor in the loss to the Warriors was the team peaking at the wrong time. That he would have kicked it up a notch when he did is hardly unexpected. If Dirk didn't believe in the team prior to the trade, I'm not sure what the catalyst is to suddenly believe in the turd that the Mavericks have been since Kidd arrived. Dirk doesn't love moral victories the same way his fan base seems to.

[Findog]

The Mavs are a much grittier team now with Jason Kidd. In the past, they would have laid down and opened up their legs if they were down. Now, they're fighting with come behind wins (Suns) and hanging tough to the final seconds (both Laker games).

The Mavs are a much tougher bunch right now than before. There offense is MUCH easier to watch now. I don't know how you Mav fans endured all those ISO's with Jason Terry holding the ball for 10 seconds every possession before passing it out. That was some terrible stuff. Mavs are actually moving the ball now.

They still can't "Close" a game yet but they're learning I think.

So in the short run (this year and next), it's a great trade, in the long run it's gonna hurt.


Good take Allanon. You pretty much summed it up. They gave up on Devin's future for the risk that Kidd can get them over the hump. I think there's just too many good teams out there and they probably won't, but it gives them the proverbial fighting chance they didn't have. Only problem is that they'll only have the MLE to try and shore up backup center and the two-guard spot in the summer, unless they're willing to make a big splash and trade Josh and the Basshole.

[dg7md]

This trade was an impulse trade, not a trade to pan out "for the future" at all. If Kidd does not deliver a title or long playoff run for the Mavs, this trade would be considered a disaster and a horrible one. Kidd isn't in a retirement home yet, so even if he doesn't help them win it this year, he still has at least 2 solid years left to do it.

It was a smart trade though, in the West you have to make big moves if you don't have a strong grasp on the conference in order to make some noise in the post-season, and everyone had a feeling that the Mavs team as it was constructed was not getting it done. Having made the Finals and losing in the way they did in the collapse of last year just isn't something you can keep a team together as-is. But is Kidd really the solution to those problems? I really don't think that a PG like Kidd was ever really thought of when you think about the Mavs' problems, but as I said, big moves need to be made to make a splash in the league, especially in a conference so tough as the West where there are 6 teams that could legitimately make the Finals and win.

I know very well that regular season means nothing if you make it to the playoffs (I'm a Spurs fan, after all) so I am not ready to judge this trade completely, yet. However I am not completely impressed with the Mavericks team after this Kidd trade. I live in Dallas and watch nearly all their games and I just don't see much new to the table, in general I see the same team that has the same end of game techniques and execution.

Kidd is nice for some appeal, passes and defense but I don't see this being a big enough trade to win them the title, which was the point of this panic-mode trade. As a Spurs fan (and many have said the same), I like seeing the Mavericks without Harris and Diop, like it or not, sheets or numbers can't say how big of factors they were against us, but I don't see any significant improvements Kidd has done for the Mavs team. The chemistry has been much better since his initial games on the team, yes, but I don't see this trade making them any better, or any worse than they were.

The big problem is all they gave up for Kidd, I know a whole new season is happening soon and anything can change, undoubtedly, however for this Mavs team, a Jason Kidd isn't that missing piece needed to win the a title. In the end, a trade WAS necessary for that Mavs team, but they probably could have gotten something better than Kidd, I didn't know who was shopping and shipping what, but a big man in the paint is what is needed to put the Mavs over the top, not an aging point guard.

[Audio 2]

you people seem to forget that Harris was injured before, during and after the trade. Odds are, they would have lost all those games.

And ALL they gave up??? What exactly did they give up that was of any consequence. Harris was nothing in the half court. He basically passed the ball from one side to the other. Why do you think Avery ran so many plays for this team? And diop was just a backup center [although you do need one] He wasn't having that good of a year anyways so it wasn't too big a loss. Oh and a few picks on unproven talent. If youre trying to build a championship you think youre going to do that in the next 2-3 years in the draft? No, you use that trade value for proven talent now.

If you can't see the difference in the team now as opposed to when harris was here, then i don't think anyone could help you. You must not be watching the same games.

[stretch]

I watched the games, and he started going more forcefully into the paint, drawing contact and really working to dictate the game a month before the trade.
You are full of shit.

If you really watched the games, you would have known that he didn't really get forceful until about 2 games before the all-star break, which happened to coincide with the time period when the Kidd rumors got serious. Prior to that, he had been very inconsistent the entire season.

Now I'm not saying I don't agree with you talking about how Dirk did not want to peak at the wrong time. That is a very good possibility, but he was not playing well until about the time the Kidd rumors got serious. Perhaps it was a coincedence, but he absolutely did not pick up his game a whole month prior to the trade.

[stretch]

In the end, a trade WAS necessary for that Mavs team, but they probably could have gotten something better than Kidd, I didn't know who was shopping and shipping what, but a big man in the paint is what is needed to put the Mavs over the top, not an aging point guard.
and this is what pisses me off when people criticize the trade. what big men were available that could put us over the top? its not like there are many great big men avaliable, and the ones that are even any good are usually not going to be available. they had to do what they could, and Kidd would help them and their stagnant offense, which was their biggest problem.

[dg7md]

and this is what pisses me off when people criticize the trade. what big men were available that could put us over the top?

Did you read my other part of the statement? I am aware of that, I was making that claim in a general sense of the spectrum, I didn't know who was shopping what, but I am certain that if they were offering to trade more and mix up their team a bit (something needed for this team to get a boost of life) they could have gotten a formidable big man for what they were sending out. I didn't mean an all-star to be gotten in a trade or anything.

[stretch]

Did you read my other part of the statement? I am aware of that, I was making that claim in a general sense of the spectrum, I don't know who was shopping what, but I am certain that if they were offering to trade more and mix up their team a bit (something needed for this team to get a boost of life) they could have gotten a formidable big man.
I did read that, and I wasn't entirely referring to you in my post. It was to people who strongly criticize the trade and says we could have gotten a big man, when in fact, we most likely could not have. what big men are even out there that can get us over the top? please, just name some. fact is, just about any big man worth getting is not available, or would not help us win a title. Gasol or Shaq would not have helped us. Gasol plays no defense, and Shaq is a fucking cancer, I don't care what people say. Unless we were giving up JJ Barea for him, I don't want him on this team, because he will fuck the whole team up within 2 seasons. Notice that every team he left, he left on bad terms and tore the lockerroom up and the franchises went downhill. Orlando. LA. Miami. and it was not because of his departure either, because the teams were already going downhill even with him. his fat, lazy, lethargic attitude is NOT something we need on this team.

[The Nba Is Rigged]

I did read that, and I wasn't entirely referring to you in my post. It was to people who strongly criticize the trade and says we could have gotten a big man, when in fact, we most likely could not have. what big men are even out there that can get us over the top? please, just name some. fact is, just about any big man worth getting is not available, or would not help us win a title. Gasol or Shaq would not have helped us. Gasol plays no defense, and Shaq is a fucking cancer, I don't care what people say. Unless we were giving up JJ Barea for him, I don't want him on this team, because he will fuck the whole team up within 2 seasons. Notice that every team he left, he left on bad terms and tore the lockerroom up and the franchises went downhill. Orlando. LA. Miami. and it was not because of his departure either, because the teams were already going downhill even with him. his fat, lazy, lethargic attitude is NOT something we need on this team.

Stretch just proved that he's a genius

[stretch]

what, do you hate shaq too?

shaq is a piece of garbage.

[Obstructed_View]

You are full of shit.

If you really watched the games, you would have known that he didn't really get forceful until about 2 games before the all-star break, which happened to coincide with the time period when the Kidd rumors got serious. Prior to that, he had been very inconsistent the entire season.

Now I'm not saying I don't agree with you talking about how Dirk did not want to peak at the wrong time. That is a very good possibility, but he was not playing well until about the time the Kidd rumors got serious. Perhaps it was a coincedence, but he absolutely did not pick up his game a whole month prior to the trade.
I wasn't actually talking about his production, but instead his shot selection, his aggression and his defense. And I certainly wouldn't characterize Dirk's play this season as "very inconsistent".

Dirk attempted 94 free throws in November, 91 in December, and 141 in January, but it was only about two weeks before Kidd arrived, and not a "full month" as you say. Those numbers look to have plummetted since Kidd actually arrived in town, so I'm reluctant to grant that it was excitement about Kidd that made Dirk turn it around. Regardless, he did it when Kidd was still in New Jersey, and persisted when the trade looked to be dead. It's always possible that they had a couple of big tests against the west and Dirk stepped up for them because it was time to do it. He lived in the paint against the Lakers and was really aggressive against the Celtics. If he hadn't let Rondo beat him out for that rebound they could have won that Boston game.

And I might be mistaken, but I think Kidd was already a Maverick two days before the all star break.

[The Nba Is Rigged]

what, do you hate shaq too?

shaq is a piece of garbage.

I don't hate Shaq at all but I think you are completely correct about his lazy work ethic and the way he demoralizes locker rooms after he leaves.

[stretch]

I don't hate Shaq at all but I think you are completely correct about his lazy work ethic and the way he demoralizes locker rooms after he leaves.
seriously. like we would have a great chance at winning a title with him here, but it doesnt matter because if people think our future is fucked by trading away Harris and Diop, it would be about 100x worse if we had traded for Shaq. We still have a good outlook for the future with this team. But with Shaq, your future is good as fucked.

[stretch]

I wasn't actually talking about his production, but instead his shot selection, his aggression and his defense. And I certainly wouldn't characterize Dirk's play this season as "very inconsistent".

Dirk attempted 94 free throws in November, 91 in December, and 141 in January, but it was only about two weeks before Kidd arrived, and not a "full month" as you say. Those numbers look to have plummetted since Kidd actually arrived in town, so I'm reluctant to grant that it was excitement about Kidd that made Dirk turn it around. Regardless, he did it when Kidd was still in New Jersey, and persisted when the trade looked to be dead. It's always possible that they had a couple of big tests against the west and Dirk stepped up for them because it was time to do it. He lived in the paint against the Lakers and was really aggressive against the Celtics. If he hadn't let Rondo beat him out for that rebound they could have won that Boston game.

And I might be mistaken, but I think Kidd was already a Maverick two days before the all star break.
Dirk's play early in the season was inconsistent. He was shooting in the low 40%, and under 30% on 3s.

I agree that he started to play a bit harder around January or so, but he didn't really take off until around the time that the Kidd rumors were serious.

Also, it was you who said he picked it up for a whole month, and I disagreed.

And you are mistaken. The trade wasn't completed until after the all-star break.

[The Nba Is Rigged]

seriously. like we would have a great chance at winning a title with him here, but it doesnt matter because if people think our future is fucked by trading away Harris and Diop, it would be about 100x worse if we had traded for Shaq. We still have a good outlook for the future with this team. But with Shaq, your future is good as fucked.

And the thing I don't understand is how people rave about his defense, his defense seems pretty sub par to me, he can get a couple of blocks but all he does is usually just wack the shit out of the person driving to the rim. I would take Damp's defense to Shaq's anyday. If Damp only had some better hands he would be a double double man.

[stretch]

And the thing I don't understand is how people rave about his defense, his defense seems pretty sub par to me, he can get a couple of blocks but all he does is usually just wack the shit out of the person driving to the rim. I would take Damp's defense to Shaq's anyday. If Damp only had some better hands he would be a double double man.
Shaq's defense relies a lot on the intimidation factor, which is partly due to his size, attitude, and the way he wacks the shit out of people. I agree that Damp actually has better defensive skills, but his problem is that people aren't scared as him the way they are of Shaq. My biggest issue with Damp is that when he fouls people, he just gives weak bumps and pushes, instead of knocking their ass to the floor. if he did that the way Shaq did, people would be a lot more reluctant to drive on him.

[Audio 2]

correction he was a maverick AFTER the all star break ... And ditto, there were no big men to be gotten. If you can name one, then we can talk otherwise you're just saying the same thing mavs fans have been saying for almost 10+ years now. Whether you think so or not, this team had run its course as was constructed and wasnt responsive anymore. It needed new direction and i think they accomplished that with jason.Im sorry but harris wasnt all that. He's a good player but he wasnt getting the job done here. When you have a dominating big man or guard, then maybe you can get by without a true point. But thats not the case here and so we needed a play maker. [something which this team had desperately lacked since the departure of nash] The same old iso offense is not going to get it done anymore.

You remember the GS series? They basically zoned the hell out of dallas and forced them to make plays. And we didnt have someone that could do that. Since then every team in the NBA had employed the zone against dallas with great success. But with the addition of kidd, they seemed to have solved that problem. He, simply put, up'd the BBAll IQ about 100% on this team.

[Obstructed_View]

He, simply put, up'd the BBAll IQ about 100% on this team.
Let me know when that translates to wins.

[monosylab1k]

The trade isn't a disaster unless there's no championship in Dallas AND Harris wins one in New Jersey.

Otherwise, it was a trade that the team needed to make. They weren't winning anything as previously constructed. They may still not win anything, but the Kidd trade isn't "bad" unless Harris somehow magically turns into a PG capable of leading a team to a title (something that he is definitely NOT right now).

[The Nba Is Rigged]

Shaq's defense relies a lot on the intimidation factor, which is partly due to his size, attitude, and the way he wacks the shit out of people. I agree that Damp actually has better defensive skills, but his problem is that people aren't scared as him the way they are of Shaq. My biggest issue with Damp is that when he fouls people, he just gives weak bumps and pushes, instead of knocking their ass to the floor. if he did that the way Shaq did, people would be a lot more reluctant to drive on him.

Yea good point and the other thing is that Shaq is way more respected by the refs than Damp. If you saw the last two times the spurs and suns played you would see Shaq hacking the shit out of Duncan with no call. If that was Damp he would have fouled out in the 2nd quarter., and btw did you see the move Damp put on Amare on sunday? I lol'ed, he did a fake spin and a fallway jumper. Mono started a whole thread about that move lol.

[monosylab1k]

Let me know when that translates to wins.
It has.

[Obstructed_View]

And you are mistaken. The trade wasn't completed until after the all-star break.
So it was only 26 days between the Lakers game and the New Orleans game. I don't know what I was thinking when I said a month.

[Obstructed_View]

It has.
Oh yeah, you're right. They've beaten two winning teams now since Kidd arrived. You should be as excited about the post season as I am after watching the last couple of Spurs performances. Of course, since it looks like the teams are going to meet then one of them has to advance. I guess.

[monosylab1k]

So it was only 26 days between the Lakers game and the New Orleans game. I don't know what I was thinking when I said a month.
I guess in those 26 days you missed the games against Detroit, Philly, and the Kidd-led Nets. You know, the games where Dirk played like shit and the Mavs lost. But you're right he "turned it on" before Kidd got here.

[monosylab1k]

They've beaten two winning teams now since Kidd arrived.
Last I checked those two got put into the win column. Just sayin.

[Obstructed_View]

I guess in those 26 days you missed the games against Detroit, Milwaukee, Philly, and the Kidd-led Nets. You know, the games where Dirk played like shit and the Mavs lost. But you're right he "turned it on" before Kidd got here.
I guess you were always going to be able to cherry pick four games out of that to try to make it mean something. If you aren't going to give the superstar of your own team credit for being a leader, I'm not going to try to convince you. Given the track record, I guess that means the honeymoon will be over for Kidd eventually too.

[Obstructed_View]

Last I checked those two got put into the win column. Just sayin.
That's why I acknowledged it. I literally forgot about the Golden State game, which was a complete ass whipping. If the Mavs go on a run, that'll probably be looked back as the "turnaround" game, since it looked the most like last year's team I've seen all season.

[mavsfan1000]

The trade isn't a disaster unless there's no championship in Dallas AND Harris wins one in New Jersey.

Otherwise, it was a trade that the team needed to make. They weren't winning anything as previously constructed. They may still not win anything, but the Kidd trade isn't "bad" unless Harris somehow magically turns into a PG capable of leading a team to a title (something that he is definitely NOT right now).
Dude are you still saying this crap? The mavs were winning much more with Harris. 29-13 is what they were and they were playing their best ball in January. That team might not have won it all but they have a much better chance than the team now constructed. Point guard is not the position we needed to change. It was shooting guard.

[Audio 2]

Takes adjustment man. I think Kidd should be the least of your worries after seeing that game last night.

[monosylab1k]

they were playing their best ball in January.
Take a look at their schedule in January. It was about as cupcake as it gets.

The team was playing in a malaise all year and the Kidd trade shook them out of it. Early returns weren't good, but overall the team is much more competitive. The only guy who hasn't adjusted to the trade is Avery.

[mavsfan1000]

Take a look at their schedule in January. It was about as cupcake as it gets.

The team was playing in a malaise all year and the Kidd trade shook them out of it. Early returns weren't good, but overall the team is much more competitive. The only guy who hasn't adjusted to the trade is Avery.
With Kidd, this team is way too reliant on the jump shot. Harris was our only consistent slasher. If Terry and Bass were the trade, I would love the trade as we need to keep our only slasher in a team that relies too heavily on jump shots and keep our interior defense.

[monosylab1k]

With Kidd, this team is way too reliant on the jump shot. Harris was our only consistent slasher. If Terry and Bass were the trade, I would love the trade as we need to keep our only slasher in a team that relies too heavily on jump shots and keep our interior defense.
:lmao first you say we needed a SG, then you say you're willing to trade our best SG for another PG? dude get your story straight.

[Audio 2]

Dude are you still saying this crap? The mavs were winning much more with Harris. 29-13 is what they were and they were playing their best ball in January. That team might not have won it all but they have a much better chance than the team now constructed. Point guard is not the position we needed to change. It was shooting guard.

technically the suns were just fine without shaq, but i wonder why they made THAT trade ... Exactly what makes you think Diop and harris would better help this team to win a championship than the same team with Wright, Allen and Kidd?

Wha just because harris is fast?? How often does he get in foul trouble in the 1st and how often is he overpowered and over matched by the people he's called to guard? You don't have those problems with Kidd. So what, harris can shoot a little better. Now what else does he do thats better than Jason.

[he's younger?] yes that'll win us a championship this year or next ...

[mavsfan1000]

:lmao first you say we needed a SG, then you say you're willing to trade our best SG for another PG? dude get your story straight.
Harris can play shooting guard beside Kidd. Harris would be our best shooting guard than and it would be awesome on defense.

[stretch]

So it was only 26 days between the Lakers game and the New Orleans game. I don't know what I was thinking when I said a month.
what the fuck are you talking about?

[monosylab1k]

Harris can play shooting guard beside Kidd.
:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao
:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao
:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[Indazone]

The only way to make the Kidd Trade work is if you get a real coach and then somehow convince Orlando to give you Howard. Otherwise...well the rest is history.

[Audio 2]

Seriously, look at the jumpshots they're getting. WIDE FREAKING OPEN. Don't worry about teh slash because josh is back to that role now. Now you wanna trade bass AND terry? Terry's one of out best shooters! And bass is a great power guy inside [thought he doesn't offer much in the way of defense.] but bass is weird in a sense that he CAN guard 3's 4's and some 5's.

[monosylab1k]

I'm not sure which is the more stupid comment, "+/- is the only stat that matters" or "harris can play shooting guard".

[mavsfan1000]

technically the suns were just fine without shaq, but i wonder why they made THAT trade ... Exactly what makes you think Diop and harris would better help this team to win a championship than the same team with Wright, Allen and Kidd?

Wha just because harris is fast?? How often does he get in foul trouble in the 1st and how often is he overpowered and over matched by the people he's called to guard? You don't have those problems with Kidd. So what, harris can shoot a little better. Now what else does he do thats better than Jason.

[he's younger?] yes that'll win us a championship this year or next ...
He can get to the basket at will a heck lot better than Kidd can. Kidd has trouble with fast point guards like Tony Parker and Chris Paul. 2 teams we will likely face. Kidd can't play with Devean George since we can't have 3 non scoring threats according to Avery.

[Audio 2]

The only way to make the Kidd Trade work is if you get a real coach and then somehow convince Orlando to give you Howard. Otherwise...well the rest is history.
Only way the rockettes are getting out of the first round is by pulling "the dream" out of retirement.

[mavsfan1000]

I'm not sure which is the more stupid comment, "+/- is the only stat that matters" or "harris can play shooting guard".
Harris played shooting guarding for the mavs team that got to the finals smart guy. Plus he now has a point guard that can defend shooting guards. How many more fastbreak points will they get with Kidd and Harris in the backcourt?

[monosylab1k]

Harris played shooting guarding for the mavs team that got to the finals smart guy.
Were you still rooting for the Bulls back then? Adrian Griffin was our SG. Marquis Daniels & Stackhouse played at the 2-guard spot as well. Harris got zero minutes at SG. Harris was the backup PG.

[mavsfan1000]

Were you still rooting for the Bulls back then? Adrian Griffin was our SG. Harris was the backup PG.
Nope that ended after we lost game 1 to the spurs. Putting Harris in the starting lineup instead of Griffin is what changed the series. Anyways Harris is a much better player now than at that time.

[monosylab1k]

Nope that ended after we lost game 1 to the spurs.
Harris never played SG.

[mavsfan1000]

Harris never played SG.
He and Terry shared the backcourt. He can do the same with Kidd except he won't have as many point guard duties.

[Findog]

He can get to the basket at will a heck lot better than Kidd can. Kidd has trouble with fast point guards like Tony Parker and Chris Paul. .

So does Devin Harris. So does everybody. Go on, go ahead and look up Devin and Tony's numbers against each other since that series.

[mavsfan1000]

So does Devin Harris. So does everybody. Go on, go ahead and look up Devin and Tony's numbers against each other since that series.
That series should be ignored? Those were the games that counted the most. Harris can guard Parker better than anyone I've seen and it helped a lot to have Diop ready to challenge any shot Parker tried when he did get passed Harris.

[monosylab1k]

He and Terry shared the backcourt.
That worked great against the Warriors.

And Harris still wasn't the SG.

[mavsfan1000]

That worked great against the Warriors.

And Harris still wasn't the SG.
They took turns. They took pressure off each other. Both had their moments of being shooting guard and point guard. You are too fixed about positions. Why can't Harris play shooting guard on offense and have Kidd guard shooting guards on the other side of the court?

[monosylab1k]

That series should be ignored?
That series was 2 years ago. Get the fuck over it. Harris played well in 3 games. Tell me what he did in Game 7, when it "mattered".

[stretch]

Were you still rooting for the Bulls back then? Adrian Griffin was our SG. Marquis Daniels & Stackhouse played at the 2-guard spot as well. Harris got zero minutes at SG. Harris was the backup PG.
In all honesty, I wouldn't mind having Harris at SG, even though he is small. If he is asked to just play defense and drive relentlessly, then I'm fine with that. If Howard was a better jumpshooter, then I would have rather traded Terry. But we needed jumpshooting around Kidd, so we had to keep Terry obviously.

[Findog]

That series should be ignored? Those were the games that counted the most. Harris can guard Parker better than anyone I've seen and it helped a lot to have Diop ready to challenge any shot Parker tried when he did get passed Harris.

It includes that series. Beginning with G1 of the 06 Western Semis, Parker has consistently outplayed Harris. Go on, go and look it up.

[mavsfan1000]

In all honesty, I wouldn't mind having Harris at SG, even though he is small. If he is asked to just play defense and drive relentlessly, then I'm fine with that. If Howard was a better jumpshooter, then I would have rather traded Terry. But we needed jumpshooting around Kidd, so we had to keep Terry obviously.
Yeah why I am arguing with someone that is best known for his smack talk and has little knowledge of basketball. I'm just wasting my time if he doesn't get it by now.

[Findog]

That series was 2 years ago. Get the fuck over it. Harris played well in 3 games. Tell me what he did in Game 7, when it "mattered".

IIRC, he was curbstomped by Tony Parker.

[monosylab1k]

Why can't Harris play shooting guard on offense and have Kidd guard shooting guards on the other side of the court?
Floor spacing. Harris isn't going to have drives to the basket because the kickout to Terry isn't available. Nobody respects Kidd's jumper as it is, and they didn't respect Harris' either (his shot improved but was still mediocre). The defense would crowd even worse than it does already, Harris wouldn't have shit, and now we've lost another 3 point threat. Genius :tu

Putting Harris at SG is so stupid that not even Avery would consider it.

[mavsfan1000]

It includes that series. Beginning with G1 of the 06 Western Semis, Parker has consistently outplayed Harris. Go on, go and look it up.
Parker was having a hell of a year that year. He was having his way with everyone. Totally owning Bibby. Harris was the only one it seemed to gave him problems. Of course he didn't outscore Parker but Parker's percentages and point average was way down. Harris wasn't a big part of the offense back than though so I wouldn't expect him to outscore Parker. I'll look it up though.

[monosylab1k]

IIRC, he was curbstomped by Tony Parker.
Harris put up a scintillating 33 minutes, 2 points, 1 rebound, 0 assists, 5 turnovers.

Parker had a mediocre 9-18, 24 point game.

But Harris owns Parker. That's what they all say.

[mavsfan1000]

Floor spacing. Harris isn't going to have drives to the basket because the kickout to Terry isn't available. Nobody respects Kidd's jumper as it is, and they didn't respect Harris' either (his shot improved but was still mediocre). The defense would crowd even worse than it does already, Harris wouldn't have shit, and now we've lost another 3 point threat. Genius :tu

Putting Harris at SG is so stupid that not even Avery would consider it.
2 years ago forum. Harris is much improved from outside as well as Kidd. Teams can't leave Harris as we will get many passes from Kidd for layups. Kidd, on the other hand, you can leave. He will just wait at the 3 point line.

[Findog]

Parker was having a hell of a year that year. He was having his way with everyone. Totally owning Bibby. Harris was the only one it seemed to gave him problems. Of course he didn't outscore Parker but Parker's percentages and point average was way down. Harris wasn't a big part of the offense back than though so I wouldn't expect him to outscore Parker. I'll look it up though.

Not just that series, but since then as well, taking into account Harris' improvement. Parker has consistently won that matchup.

[monosylab1k]

Harris is much improved from outside
Much improved? He went from "horrible" to "not as horrible". By no means was he ever a threat from outside, up until he was traded. And he's shooting even worse in New Jersey.

[Findog]

Kidd, on the other hand, you can leave. He will just wait at the 3 point line.

Good, then. He's shooting 51% from there as a Mav. His mid-range jumper is awful, but he finishes well on drives to the rim and he's a good, yes I said, good, 3-point shooter from the wings.

[monosylab1k]

Not to mention the utter stupidity of the fact that Harris needs the ball to be effective. Just like Kidd.

So we have two guys who can only make plays if they're controlling the ball, and we're going to play them at the same time. again, genius :tu

[clambake]

yes, this was a very bad trade. we should look away from the screen and give up on this phony team.

ok?

[mavsfan1000]

Good, then. He's shooting 51% from there as a Mav. His mid-range jumper is awful, but he finishes well on drives to the rim and he's a good, yes I said, good, 3-point shooter from the wings.
Yes and teams will run up on him forcing him to drive and take a midrange shot. You can't do that with Harris.

[mavsfan1000]

Not to mention the utter stupidity of the fact that Harris needs the ball to be effective. Just like Kidd.

So we have two guys who can only make plays if they're controlling the ball, and we're going to play them at the same time. again, genius :tu
Harris played shooting guard in college. He is equally capable of playing both positions. He is like Manu Ginobili in that since. His scoring average would raise a ton with Kidd.

[stretch]

Yeah why I am arguing with someone that is best known for his smack talk and has little knowledge of basketball. I'm just wasting my time if he doesn't get it by now.
well the fact is, Josh Howard is NOT a good shooter. Terry is, so Terry is a better fit for this team. and the way that Harris needs the ball so much to be effective, may or may not have been a problem, as Kidd should be the one running the offense. as long as Harris could stay in control, and if Howard was a better shooter, then it wouldn't be a bad experiment at all. but for this system, Terry fits better, as he is a fantastic catch and shooter.

[monosylab1k]

His mid-range jumper is awful
Which is why the whole "play Harris/Kidd in the backcourt" is such a stupid concept. Terry is effective because he can find a spot on the floor without the ball, and catch-n-shoot there. Kidd can do no such thing and neither can Harris (unless it's a wide open 3 for both of them).

They both need to be running the show to be effective, neither can run to a "spot" on the floor without the ball for a catch-n-shoot, and now they can't drive since the paint is going to be completely crowded.

again, the concept is so stupid that even Avery would be smart enough to dismiss it.

[mavsfan1000]

Harris shot 47% averaging 35 mpg and averaged 12.7 ppg. Parker averaged 20.1 ppg on 42.2% which is way below average for him percentage wise.

[stretch]

Which is why the whole "play Harris/Kidd in the backcourt" is such a stupid concept. Terry is effective because he can find a spot on the floor without the ball, and catch-n-shoot there. Kidd can do no such thing and neither can Harris (unless it's a wide open 3 for both of them).

They both need to be running the show to be effective, neither can run to a "spot" on the floor without the ball for a catch-n-shoot, and now they can't drive since the paint is going to be completely crowded.

again, the concept is so stupid that even Avery would be smart enough to dismiss it.
I agree. It would only work if we had another shooting option at SF. but since we don't, it is not a good idea.

[mavsfan1000]

well the fact is, Josh Howard is NOT a good shooter. Terry is, so Terry is a better fit for this team. and the way that Harris needs the ball so much to be effective, may or may not have been a problem, as Kidd should be the one running the offense. as long as Harris could stay in control, and if Howard was a better shooter, then it wouldn't be a bad experiment at all. but for this system, Terry fits better, as he is a fantastic catch and shooter.
We got a power forward that plays like a shooting guard (no offense) so I think the paint won't be crowded. Btw Kidd and Harris can both shoot outside and Harris can penetrate as well.

[monosylab1k]

So how does it work when neither player is effective without the ball in their hands? I'd love to hear how that's gonna work.

[monosylab1k]

We got a power forward that plays like a shooting guard (no offense) so I think the paint won't be crowded.
So you're gonna reduce Dirk to a spot-up shooter role? More genius :tu

[Audio 2]

They took turns. They took pressure off each other. Both had their moments of being shooting guard and point guard. You are too fixed about positions. Why can't Harris play shooting guard on offense and have Kidd guard shooting guards on the other side of the court?
No playmakers. Zone the team and you expose the mavericks. Check our fast break points before and after harris. id take 6/16/10 from kidd any day. he adds too many intangibles that can't be quantified. How many times have we watched a recent broadcast and watch Brad davis point out all the extremely smart basketball plays Kidd makes every single game. The guy simply knows how to win games. You surround him with a solid team and you get a serious contender. I guarantee you the league will be fearing the mavs come the second round if they don't realize it by now.

[mavsfan1000]

So how does it work when neither player is effective without the ball in their hands? I'd love to hear how that's gonna work.
Wrong. Especially about Harris. He can slash on the weak side for easy baskets and if you totally leave Kidd he is great with catch and shoot. How many times do I have to explain this?

[Findog]

We got a power forward that plays like a shooting guard (no offense) so I think the paint won't be crowded. Btw Kidd and Harris can both shoot outside and Harris can penetrate as well.

New Jersey was never going to take back our garbage for Kidd. Keeping Harris and acquiring Kidd was NOT AN OPTION.

[mavsfan1000]

No playmakers. Zone the team and you expose the mavericks. Check our fast break points before and after harris. id take 6/16/10 from kidd any day. he adds too many intangibles that can't be quantified. How many times have we watched a recent broadcast and watch Brad davis point out all the extremely smart basketball plays Kidd makes every single game. The guy simply knows how to win games. You surround him with a solid team and you get a serious contender. I guarantee you the league will be fearing the mavs come the second round if they don't realize it by now.
This team would be unstoppable on fastbreaks. We've had worse shooting guards for shooting purposes in the past. Stackhouse and Daniels are hardly threats for that. Harris shoots better than both of them. Harris and Kidd are shooting career highs from outside and Harris can slash. Zone would not work.

[stretch]

We got a power forward that plays like a shooting guard (no offense) so I think the paint won't be crowded. Btw Kidd and Harris can both shoot outside and Harris can penetrate as well.
thats one guy. but no one elses shot will be respected. you gotta have AT LEAST 2 people who have a respectable shot, or a few guys that are capable of hitting the majority of their wide open jumpers. otherwise its not going to be easy getting inside whatsoever.

[monosylab1k]

Wrong. Especially about Harris. He can slash on the weak side for easy baskets and if you totally leave Kidd he is great with catch and shoot. How many times do I have to explain this?
So you're telling me you put the ball in Harris' hands and leave Kidd as a spot-up shooter? :lmao so Harris, who has trouble completing routine passes as it is, now is expected to drive to the basket and then dish all the way out to the 3 point line, and then we have to pray that Kidd is wide open or else he won't make the shot.

And Harris has never been able to create anything without the ball in his hands, besides spotting up for a 3.

So we have 2 guys who can either drive or shoot a wide open 3, can't hit anything from the midrange, we're going to leave Dirk out on the perimeter thereby eliminating his ability to create in the high post and also throw away a valuable offensive rebounder, leave Josh Howard to sit around with his thumb up his ass, and now Dampier has to deal with 3 guys crowding the paint. Bravo!

[mavsfan1000]

thats one guy. but no one elses shot will be respected. you gotta have AT LEAST 2 people who have a respectable shot, or a few guys that are capable of hitting the majority of their wide open jumpers. otherwise its not going to be easy getting inside whatsoever.
Howard and Dirk are your mid range guys and Harris and Kidd are your 3 point guys/slashers.

[stretch]

This team would be unstoppable on fastbreaks. We've had worse shooting guards for shooting purposes in the past. Stackhouse and Daniels are hardly threats for that. Harris shoots better than both of them. Harris and Kidd are shooting career highs from outside and Harris can slash. Zone would not work.
Um... Stack is definitely a better shooter than Harris. and Daniels had a beautiful mid-range jumper.

their fastbreaks would be fantastic, I agree. but they would have serious issues in the halfcourt, especially against a team like San Antonio.

[stretch]

Howard and Dirk are your mid range guys and Harris and Kidd are your 3 point guys/slashers.
Howard is way too streaky of a shooter, and Harris is not a 3 point shooter dude. I'm talking we need guys you can rely on. You cannot rely on them for shooting. the only reliable shooters on this team are Dirk and Terry. everyone else is streaky. if they get hot, they hit everything, but when they are cold, they are nearly useless and will not snap out of it.

[monosylab1k]

their fastbreaks would be fantastic, I agree.
When was the last time fast break basketball won a championship?

[mavsfan1000]

Um... Stack is definitely a better shooter than Harris. and Daniels had a beautiful mid-range jumper.

their fastbreaks would be fantastic, I agree. but they would have serious issues in the halfcourt, especially against a team like San Antonio.
Harris always shoots better than what Stack did. Especially this year. What people don't seem to understand is how poor of a shooter Stack is. Teams should go zone when he is in the game instead of Terry. Aw yeah no one can hit outside if Harris is in the game. :rolleyes

[The Nba Is Rigged]

The only way to make the Kidd Trade work is if you get a real coach and then somehow convince Orlando to give you Howard. Otherwise...well the rest is history.

You Fail...

[monosylab1k]

Harris always shoots better than what Stack did.
Yeah Harris shot great against the Warriors. Stackhouse didn't do anything except single-handedly keep us in Game 6 for the entire first half.

[mavsfan1000]

When was the last time fast break basketball won a championship?
When was the last time a fastbreak team actually cared about defense? Harris and Kidd would take away our deficiencies on defense that Terry gave us.

[mavsfan1000]

Yeah Harris shot great against the Warriors. Stackhouse didn't do anything except single-handedly keep us in Game 6 for the entire first half.
I was talking about overall. I could go back to one game as well and prove that Stackhouse is better than Dirk. Sorry but I meant through a longer period of time.

[monosylab1k]

When was the last time a fastbreak team actually cared about defense?
It has nothing to do with that. In the playoffs, the elite teams are going to focus & lock down on their transition defense. In tight games in the 4th quarter, games slow to a crawl. The fast break is virtually eliminated. It has nothing to do with defense.

[stretch]

When was the last time fast break basketball won a championship?
there is nothing wrong with fast-breaking. its just that you also have to be capable of scoring in a half-court set as well. for instance the Bulls. heavy duty fast-breaking team, but were capable of scoring in the half-court. the problem is, people try to win by ONLY fastbreaking, and that is where the problem lies. but playing ONLY halfcourt doesnt help either. despite being mainly a half-court team, the Spurs are more than capable of running fast breaks to get easy scores. the key is really balance, and it has to fit the squad you have as well.

[clambake]

mavsfan1000, when and how does this season end?

[monosylab1k]

I was talking about overall. I could go back to one game as well and prove that Stackhouse is better than Dirk. Sorry but I meant through a longer period of time.
Harris has never shot better than Stackhouse. Stackhouse takes some bad shots, and Harris gets his percentage up from drives. But Harris is nowhere near as good a jump shooter as Stack. If I need someone to take a jumpshot to win a game, give me Stackhouse over Harris any day.

[mavsfan1000]

It has nothing to do with that. In the playoffs, the elite teams are going to focus & lock down on their transition defense. In tight games in the 4th quarter, games slow to a crawl. The fast break is virtually eliminated. It has nothing to do with defense.
The suns were still scoring at a pretty good rate from what I remember. No team is quick enough to stop Harris's 1 man fastbreak. Even Terry has had some success with Kidd in this department and Harris is much quicker than Terry.

[stretch]

Harris always shoots better than what Stack did. Especially this year. What people don't seem to understand is how poor of a shooter Stack is. Teams should go zone when he is in the game instead of Terry. Aw yeah no one can hit outside if Harris is in the game. :rolleyes
Harris has better percentages because he drives a lot more. But his jumpshot is just as inconsistent as stacks, but he doesnt have as good of range.

[mavsfan1000]

Harris has never shot better than Stackhouse. Stackhouse takes some bad shots, and Harris gets his percentage up from drives. But Harris is nowhere near as good a jump shooter as Stack. If I need someone to take a jumpshot to win a game, give me Stackhouse over Harris any day.
The only thing that Stackhouse can do better is the midrange shot which is the poorest shot in basketball anyways due to it only being 2 points and having to shoot farther out. Harris is a better 3 point shooter and slasher.

[Audio 2]

if you still can'se how great a trade this was for dallas, then you must still be sleeping under Devin harris's nutsack. You guys can have fun fly fishing in about a week.

[monosylab1k]

the midrange shot which is the poorest shot in basketball anyways due to it only being 2 points and having to shoot farther out.
Tell that to Sam Cassell.

Harris is a better 3 point shooter
not even close.

[mavsfan1000]

Tell that to Sam Cassell.

not even close.
Stackhouse is not close to the midrange shooter Cassell is either. Cassell can hit the 3 as well.

[Findog]

When was the last time fast break basketball won a championship?

1987-88.

[Findog]

When was the last time a fastbreak team actually cared about defense?

1987-88.

[Audio 2]

Poorest shot in basketball?? Hitting the midranger used to be an art. It's a shame that all these young kids care about it stepping back 10 feet to hit a shot they can only hit maybe about 35-40 of the time. Such a sad state basketball is in.

Devin is an ok slasher, but hes too short for that role. And hes not as strong a baskteball player as stack was and is.

[monosylab1k]

Stackhouse is not close to the midrange shooter Cassell is either. Cassell can hit the 3 as well.
Nobody said anything about Stackhouse vs. Cassell. You said the midrange shot was the worst shot in basketball and I showed you a guy who made his entire living on the midrange game and won a couple championships to boot. A good midrange game opens up driving lanes.

[stretch]

The only thing that Stackhouse can do better is the midrange shot which is the poorest shot in basketball anyways due to it only being 2 points and having to shoot farther out. Harris is a better 3 point shooter and slasher.
???

Um, dude... the best scorers always have fantastic mid-range games. its what makes them such good scorers because they are versatile. most people that have good midrange games are solid scorers.

[mavsfan1000]

Tell that to Sam Cassell.

not even close.
Stackhouse 32.5% from 3 point range.
Harris is 34.6% from 3 point range. So the quicker player is also the better shooter. Yes Harris at the 2 would be a disaster beside Kidd. :rolleyes

[mavsfan1000]

???

Um, dude... the best scorers always have fantastic mid-range games. its what makes them such good scorers because they are versatile. most people that have good midrange games are solid scorers.
Yes you got to have it all. Stackhouse doesn't have anything that he shoots at a high percentage except maybe the 3 pointer in the corner.

[monosylab1k]

Stackhouse 32.5% from 3 point range.
Harris is 34.6% from 3 point range.
Stackhouse is a better 3 point shooter. His shot selection is worse. That's the issue.

Give me Stackhouse with a wide open 3 any day over Harris.

[stretch]

Stackhouse 32.5% from 3 point range.
Harris is 34.6% from 3 point range. So the quicker player is also the better shooter. Yes Harris at the 2 would be a disaster beside Kidd. :rolleyes
Flawed stat. Bruce Bowen is shooting nearly 10% higher than Dirk from 3pt range. Are you telling me Bruce is a better shooter than Dirk?

[mavsfan1000]

Nobody said anything about Stackhouse vs. Cassell. You said the midrange shot was the worst shot in basketball and I showed you a guy who made his entire living on the midrange game and won a couple championships to boot. A good midrange game opens up driving lanes.
Yes for most people it is but the best players in the nba can shoot that at a high percentage. Just saying overall as a lot of people shouldn't shoot that shot unless forced to.

[monosylab1k]

Yes you got to have it all.
So you eliminate our midrange game by trading away our best midrange shooter. And team up 2 guys who can't create without the ball in their hands, forcing them to play together which means one of them will always be without the ball every time the offense takes the ball.

[clambake]

mavsfan1000, another question.

what should we do, now that the seasons over?

and please tell me where and how it ends?

[mavsfan1000]

Flawed stat. Bruce Bowen is shooting nearly 10% higher than Dirk from 3pt range. Are you telling me Bruce is a better shooter than Dirk?
Except Dirk gets a lot more attention than Bowen as well as a lot more attention than Stackhouse. Stackhouse and Harris don't get a ton of attention from 3 point range. The reason we are doing better now is Stackhouse is not starting. He killed our flow.

[mavsfan1000]

So you eliminate our midrange game by trading away our best midrange shooter. And team up 2 guys who can't create without the ball in their hands, forcing them to play together which means one of them will always be without the ball every time the offense takes the ball.
I didn't know we traded away Dirk. Not until recently did Terry get to start at that is because Stackhouse went out. How could we have Terry being left on the bench if teams would go zone and we can't shoot. Again you are way off.

[stretch]

Except Dirk gets a lot more attention than Bowen as well as a lot more attention than Stackhouse. Stackhouse and Harris don't get a ton of attention from 3 point range. The reason we are doing better now is Stackhouse is not starting. He killed our flow.
I agree that we are better with starting Terry. But I just dont agree at all that Harris is a better jumpshooter than Stackhouse. Thats my only issue here.

[mavsfan1000]

mavsfan1000, another question.

what should we do, now that the seasons over?

and please tell me where and how it ends?
The season will end against the Lakers (just guessing) and we are screwed since we traded away our future point guard and Kidd will be done soon.

[Audio 2]

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/devin_harris/index.html
as a NJN: ...

Kidd as a mav:
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jason_kidd/index.html

[monosylab1k]

I didn't know we traded away Dirk.
I didn't know we want to use Dirk as a spot-up midrange shooter. I thought you'd have enough brains to use him in his best role. But then again you think pairing Kidd & Harris works so we see just what an idiot you are.

[Audio 2]

Flawed stat. Bruce Bowen is shooting nearly 10% higher than Dirk from 3pt range. Are you telling me Bruce is a better shooter than Dirk?
you sir are awesome ... :king

[monosylab1k]

The season will end against the Lakers (just guessing) and we are screwed since we traded away our future point guard and Kidd will be done soon.
That leaves you plenty of time to find a new team to root for.

[mavsfan1000]

I didn't know we want to use Dirk as a spot-up midrange shooter. I thought you'd have enough brains to use him in his best role. But then again you think pairing Kidd & Harris works so we see just what an idiot you are.
Yes since Dirk is not known for having an awesome midrange game and 3 point game. I don't see how that is changing his game.

[clambake]

The season will end against the Lakers (just guessing) and we are screwed since we traded away our future point guard and Kidd will be done soon.
because the spurs are running away from the 2 seed?

would it be over if we drew the spurs in the 1st?

[mavsfan1000]

That leaves you plenty of time to find a new team to root for.
Looks like you ran out of intelligent ideas so I'll let you rest for awhile. I'm out and staying as a Mavs fan. I decided I didn't have the heart to switch teams again.

[monosylab1k]

Yes since Dirk is not known for having an awesome midrange game and 3 point game. I don't see how that is changing his game.
No, you're right. Let's take our superstar who is a master of creating in the high post, and instead we'll make him sit on the perimeter and wait for the ball to be passed to him for a last resort jumper. That really makes sense :td

[monosylab1k]

I decided I didn't have the heart to switch teams again.
how noble.

[The Nba Is Rigged]

Hey I am the only person who thinks the spurs will try and tank to avoid us in the first round? If they tank I don't want us to end up facing the lakers...

[clambake]

Hey I am the only person who thinks the spurs will try and tank to avoid us in the first round? If they tank I don't want us to end up facing the lakers...
valid strategy for the spurs

[stretch]

Hey I am the only person who thinks the spurs will try and tank to avoid us in the first round? If they tank I don't want us to end up facing the lakers...
meh... im not afraid of the Lakers. they barely beat us in those three games, and one of them required possibly the best performance of Lamar Odom's career. if the Mavs gel the way they have been come playoff time, I do not mind playing the Lakers one bit. Plus, I dont think the Lakers defense is good enough, and they are not mentally ready.

[DaDakota]

You guys think the Spurs are afraid of the Mavs....ROFLMAO !!!

[monosylab1k]

You guys think the Spurs are afraid of the Mavs....ROFLMAO !!!
http://www.spasepeople.com/

[mavsfan1000]

No, you're right. Let's take our superstar who is a master of creating in the high post, and instead we'll make him sit on the perimeter and wait for the ball to be passed to him for a last resort jumper. That really makes sense :td
Yeah and it's bad to have slashers when Dirk is creating in the high post. :rolleyes Terry is a good player but I'll take Harris's slashing, fastbreak points, and defense against point guards over Terry's shooting. Kidd is a good enough spot shooter like already mentioned so I don't think zone would work.

[monosylab1k]

Yeah and it's bad to have slashers when Dirk is creating in the high post. :rolleyes
Yeah because Devin Harris was always slashing to the basket when Dirk had the ball :rolleyes Again, do you even watch the games?

[monosylab1k]

Kidd is a good enough spot shooter like already mentioned
what the hell? all he makes are wide open 3's and layups. how is he at all a good spot shooter?

[mavsfan1000]

Yeah because Devin Harris was always slashing to the basket when Dirk had the ball :rolleyes Again, do you even watch the games?
He has the ability to so teams will have to respect that. The main thing though is we'll get many more fastbreak points from Kidd's outlet passes to Harris and our defense.

[monosylab1k]

He has the ability to so teams will have to respect that.
Because since we have no outside shooters and the defense is crowding the paint, what we really need is to bring another guy inside, and our smallest & most injury prone to boot. THat of course would put another one of their guys into the paint. Your "strategy" would effectively end any chance of ever pulling down an offensive rebound.

[mavsfan1000]

Because since we have no outside shooters and the defense is crowding the paint, what we really need is to bring another guy inside, and our smallest & most injury prone to boot. THat of course would put another one of their guys into the paint. Your "strategy" would effectively end any chance of ever pulling down an offensive rebound.
Dampier, Nowitzki, Josh Howard, and Kidd are all capable of getting offensive rebounds. We have no problems with rebounding. We have problems with too many jump shots and not enough easy baskets. That is where Harris comes in to help out. You don't get it that we do have outside shooters. 1-4 can all hit 3 pointers and are good enough to not be left alone.

[monosylab1k]

Dampier, Nowitzki, Josh Howard, and Kidd are all capable of getting offensive rebounds. We have no problems with rebounding. We have problems with too many jump shots and not enough easy baskets. That is where Harris comes in to help out. You don't get it that we do have outside shooters. 1-4 can all hit 3 pointers and are good enough to not be left alone.
Do you not get the concept of floor spacing?

[mavsfan1000]

Do you not get the concept of floor spacing?
Yes and you act like teams don't respect Harris's shooting which is 2 years old forum. He has proven that this year that he can shoot from outside. Better than Stackhouse actually. He does everything better than Stackhouse except midrange which neither should be shooting anyways like I said before. Worst shot in basketball.

[monosylab1k]

Yes and you act like teams don't respect Harris's shooting which is 2 years old forum.
Harris improved his shooting but it still wasn't anything great. Tony Parker improved his shooting but his shot is about as good as Harris. Harris has a better 3 and Parker has a much better midrange. They're still going to crowd the paint, and now you're asking Harris to further crowd the paint by slashing to the basket on Dirk iso's.

And calling the midrange jumper the worst shot in basketball shows what an idiot you are. If your team can't hit a midrange jumper they aren't going to win very many games.

[monosylab1k]

I'm not wasting any more of my time on some stupid wet dream trade idea. Thankfully the Mavs front office aren't as big of idiots as mavsfan1000.

[mavsfan1000]

Harris improved his shooting but it still wasn't anything great. Tony Parker improved his shooting but his shot is about as good as Harris.

And calling the midrange jumper the worst shot in basketball shows what an idiot you are. If your team can't hit a midrange jumper they aren't going to win very many games.
So if you hit 42% of your midrange shots, 55% of points in the paint, and 35% from 3's. Where do you hurt your team the most. 35% from 3's is equal to 53% from 2's. 42% is the lowest efficiency of those 3 shots. That's why I call it the worst shot in basketball. The best players can hit it at a higher rate though and therefore it isn't really a bad shot for them. Neither Harris nor Stackhouse hit that shot at a high enough rate for it to be a good shot for them though.

[Obstructed_View]

Thankfully the Mavs front office aren't as big of idiots as mavsfan1000.
Wow, that's something to be proud of there.

[Audio 2]

Wow, that's something to be proud of there.
what he fails to realize is that we've had too much experience watching the so called team that he "saying" we have. And it wasn't working. You're assuming that harris can do and be successful in all of wat you mentioned when all of us whom actually "watch" the games, know otherwise.

You can pull whatever stat you want out of your ass but Harris was just not as consistent as you think he'd be. Good luck to Devin. Roll out with what we got.

[mavsfan1000]

what he fails to realize is that we've had too much experience watching the so called team that he "saying" we have. And it wasn't working. You're assuming that harris can do and be successful in all of wat you mentioned when all of us whom actually "watch" the games, know otherwise.

You can pull whatever stat you want out of your ass but Harris was just not as consistent as you think he'd be. Good luck to Devin. Roll out with what we got.
Almost every stat favors Harris over Kidd. I'll put more into what the stats say than some homer that will defend whatever moves the mavs make no matter what.

[Indazone]

Yeah and it's bad to have slashers when Dirk is creating in the high post. :rolleyes Terry is a good player but I'll take Harris's slashing, fastbreak points, and defense against point guards over Terry's shooting. Kidd is a good enough spot shooter like already mentioned so I don't think zone would work.


Kidd is about the same as Alston. Check their stats out now that Kidd is no longer with the Nets. Alston as PG blah. Kidd also the same.

Kidd is no Nash

[Findog]

Kidd is no Nash

Exactly. He can keep his man in front of him.

[Obstructed_View]

what he fails to realize is that we've had too much experience watching the so called team that he "saying" we have. And it wasn't working. You're assuming that harris can do and be successful in all of wat you mentioned when all of us whom actually "watch" the games, know otherwise.

You can pull whatever stat you want out of your ass but Harris was just not as consistent as you think he'd be. Good luck to Devin. Roll out with what we got.
Since the '06 season, Devin Harris' record in games where he plays more than 15 minutes as a Maverick is 145-42. This season, before being traded, he was 27-10. Though it's down from the total of .775, the percentage is better than anyone but the Celtics this year. If that is your definition of "not working", most folks will take it.

Going 2-8 against Golden State last year was tough, but don't try to convince people of what you "know" just because Mark Cuban decided to shuffle players around mid-season like he was doing since he bought the team. The Mavs are finally winning some games, but they are still 14-11 with Kidd on the team, and if you weren't happy with Harris' .730 percentage, I'm not sure how a couple of wins in a row have you so thrilled with Kidd's .560 percentage.

The playoffs are the only thing with a chance to salvage this trade.

[Udrihlooms]

Kidd is about the same as Alston. Check their stats out now that Kidd is no longer with the Nets. Alston as PG blah. Kidd also the same.

Kidd is no Nash

Kidd=Alston????

What are you smoking?

They may be statistically almost equal, but can you seriously say Kidd=Alston?

What's next? Scola is Duncan's second coming???

[m33p0]

long-term - bad.
short-term - undecided.

[JK2]

The Mavs are finally winning some games, but they are still 14-11 with Kidd on the team, and if you weren't happy with Harris' .730 percentage, I'm not sure how a couple of wins in a row have you so thrilled with Kidd's .560 percentage.
you cannot link the .730 percentage to a spare like Devin Harris. Dirk, Jet and Josh handed that record to him on a silver plate. He did not have a major influence. Kidd has been excellent so far and way better than Devin Harris. not only as a passer but also as a defender. They didn't win that many games after the all star break because of Josh Howard. He single handedly lost the games. You cannot blame Kidd for that. The Mavs would have easily been the number 1 seed if Josh didn't have the worst games of his career.

[dirk4mvp]

Kidd is about the same as Alston. Check their stats out now that Kidd is no longer with the Nets. Alston as PG blah. Kidd also the same.

Kidd is no Nash


You've turned into the biggest idiot here.

[mavsfan1000]

you cannot link the .730 percentage to a spare like Devin Harris. Dirk, Jet and Josh handed that record to him on a silver plate. He did not have a major influence. Kidd has been excellent so far and way better than Devin Harris. not only as a passer but also as a defender. They didn't win that many games after the all star break because of Josh Howard. He single handedly lost the games. You cannot blame Kidd for that. The Mavs would have easily been the number 1 seed if Josh didn't have the worst games of his career.
Yeah and they were just great without him. I believe they were like 8-8 without Harris and 14-11 with Kidd and without Harris. Yeah a real spare that causes such a dip.

[Shank]

Yeah and they were just great without him. I believe they were like 8-8 without Harris and 14-11 with Kidd and without Harris. Yeah a real spare that causes such a dip.


Seriously. Your shit is tired. We all know you're not a real Mavs fan. When the playoffs roll around, do us all a favor and not post anything about any of the Mavs games. Instead, let us know who the Bulls may be targeting in the upcoming draft. Fuckstick.

[Indazone]

You've turned into the biggest idiot here.

At least I have statistics to back up what I'm saying. You on the other hand..typical Mav's fan (see below).

America, eatin' my lunch from a single bowl in my parents basement, where I'm livin'. Happy Birthday, I'm forty-three.

Don't want to waste those precious calories...chewin'. Jesus come move my jaw for me, help me get my sloppy food down my throat.

And yes...Kidd is the most overrated PG on the planet.

[mavsfan1000]

Seriously. Your shit is tired. We all know you're not a real Mavs fan. When the playoffs roll around, do us all a favor and not post anything about any of the Mavs games. Instead, let us know who the Bulls may be targeting in the upcoming draft. Fuckstick.
Dude I'm trying to have an intelligent discussion but the insults are getting tiring. I don't give a shit about the bulls. I've learned a lot since those days and would not repeat the bandwagoning like I did in the 90's.

[Findog]

At least I have statistics to back up what I'm saying. You on the other hand..typical Mav's fan (see below).



You quote statistics? You just post lame Rivals.com smack. I have a stat for you: You're 90% douche and 10% cuntnozzle.

[mavsfan1000]

This is what we're missing. http://youtube.com/watch?v=I9_IGn09Ax0&feature=related

[DaDakota]

I9_IGn09Ax0&

Exactly right Mavs1k.......and just to make it easy, here it is embedded.

DD

[Findog]

Where's the youtube mix of him sitting on the bench in a snazzy suit for 30 games a year?

[DaDakota]

Where's the youtube mix of him sitting on the bench in a snazzy suit for 30 games a year?

Findog,

Can you see why some of us think the trade was a mistake? The athleticism and quickness are much greater with Harris than with Kidd, and the overall BBall IQ is much greater with Kidd.

I just think that in the playoffs, you are going to need quicker players to match up with Nash, Paul, Williams, Parker etc...

DD

[Findog]

Findog,

Can you see why some of us think the trade was a mistake? The athleticism and quickness are much greater with Harris than with Kidd, and the overall BBall IQ is much greater with Kidd.

I just think that in the playoffs, you are going to need quicker players to match up with Nash, Paul, Williams, Parker etc...

DD

I can certainly see why some think the Mavericks should've stayed pat. Harris is so much younger, he can draw a charge and lead a one-man fastbreak. And Diop was our backup center.

I just think that Devin's rep as a shutdown defender is a bit undeserved. He's been lit up by CP3, Nash, Deron and Parker every bit as much as Kidd or anybody else. And did you see the way Kidd completely shut down Nash on Sunday? I've never relished playing Phoenix because we've never had an answer for the Nash and Amare pic and roll...until Sunday, that is.

[DaDakota]

Fair enough Fin, Fair enough.

I can see both sides, I just disagree with the trade...time will tell whom is right.

And thanks for being reasonable, it is far more fun to talk B-Ball with people not calling names etc....

DD

[Obstructed_View]

you cannot link the .730 percentage to a spare like Devin Harris. Dirk, Jet and Josh handed that record to him on a silver plate. He did not have a major influence. Kidd has been excellent so far and way better than Devin Harris. not only as a passer but also as a defender. They didn't win that many games after the all star break because of Josh Howard. He single handedly lost the games. You cannot blame Kidd for that. The Mavs would have easily been the number 1 seed if Josh didn't have the worst games of his career.
Then the Mavs should be able to make a deep playoff run now, and if they win a title in the next couple of years, then the Kidd trade will have been worth it. There's the danger that the Mavs hive mind will turn against Kidd at some point as irrationally as it turned on Harris and will blame him for everything that goes wrong with the team long before that happens.

[JK2]

I just think that Devin's rep as a shutdown defender is a bit undeserved.
Kidd is a smart defender and more valuable on D than Harris. Devin is a flopper who gets in fouls trouble early and that's about it.

[Indazone]

You quote statistics? You just post lame Rivals.com smack. I have a stat for you: You're 90% douche and 10% cuntnozzle.

:toast :drunk :jack

[Findog]

Then the Mavs should be able to make a deep playoff run now, and if they win a title in the next couple of years, then the Kidd trade will have been worth it. There's the danger that the Mavs hive mind will turn against Kidd at some point as irrationally as it turned on Harris and will blame him for everything that goes wrong with the team long before that happens.

I'm not throwing Devin under the bus for all of this team's problems, I just think that in the short term he isn't as good for this team as Kidd. Let's assume no salary cap is in play and the Hawks are stupid, and we swap out Jason Terry for Joe Johnson. I wouldn't forget all the clutch shots JET hit for us and how useful a player he's been for us, I would simply recognize JJ is a better player and our team is better for it.

[Indazone]

Overrated!

Yeah that's right. I said it. Overrated Mr. I am old and beat my own wife Kidd who's shooting percentage this season is lower than Rafer Alston's. Lets be honest here. Alston sucks so what does that make Kidd?

[dude1394]

Overrated!

Yeah that's right. I said it. Overrated Mr. I am old and beat my own wife Kidd who's shooting percentage this season is lower than Rafer Alston's. Lets be honest here. Alston sucks so what does that make Kidd?

Well actually with the mavs his shooting percentage is higher than rafer alstons.


.416 to .399 fg%,
and 3ptr's .469 to .353

[Shank]

Overrated!

Yeah that's right. I said it. Overrated Mr. I am old and beat my own wife Kidd who's shooting percentage this season is lower than Rafer Alston's. Lets be honest here. Alston sucks so what does that make Kidd?

Doesn't Dampier have a higher shooting percentage than Duncan? No one's going to tout him over Duncan.

Your attempt to simply compare stats across the board is so terribly flawed.

[Shank]

Alston sucks so what does that make Kidd?

The starting PG for Team USA and the guy that most of the great players in the NBA would love to have running the floor with them? Is that close enough?

[Obstructed_View]

I'm not throwing Devin under the bus for all of this team's problems, I just think that in the short term he isn't as good for this team as Kidd. Let's assume no salary cap is in play and the Hawks are stupid, and we swap out Jason Terry for Joe Johnson. I wouldn't forget all the clutch shots JET hit for us and how useful a player he's been for us, I would simply recognize JJ is a better player and our team is better for it.
In the short term Kidd might be better for the Mavs. There's a chance that's true because Kidd is certainly a better player at this point. I don't think there's a single stat to support that the Mavs are better with Kidd, but there's time for the Mavs to turn it around. That said, there are Mavs fans on here referring to Harris as a "spare". That's just stupid, and you know it.

[Findog]

That said, there are Mavs fans on here referring to Harris as a "spare". That's just stupid, and you know it.

Of course it is. You also have to admit that some of the hyperbole about how vital and great he and Diop are is a little silly as well.

[Obstructed_View]

Of course it is. You also have to admit that some of the hyperbole about how vital and great he and Diop are is a little silly as well.
In general? Possibly. But when it comes to matching up with the Spurs, it's not so far fetched. Lots of Mavs fans were here in 2006 telling me how much Harris was going to improve the Mavericks when he came back healthy (I made fun of them at the time), and sure enough, The Mavs went on one of the better runs in NBA history when he did. Maybe those fans were just spouting groupthink homer rhetoric, but they were the ones who got us to pay attention to him, and there are quite a few stats to suggest that those folks were right then and wrong now, mainly winning percentage. His ability to keep Parker in front of him is something Jason Kidd's never been able to do, like it or not. The return of the Mavs to an offense first mentality is the best thing that could happen to the western conference teams that are gearing up for playoff runs.

It's been said that the Mavs were built to beat the Spurs, and they've certainly held their own the last two years. Since their playoff series was REALLY close, the importance of the Mavs' having lost the two guys who bothered Parker and Duncan the most is noteworthy. Downplaying their contribution to the team in general doesn't change what they did against San Antonio.

Until the Mavs face the Spurs in a seven game series, it's going to be really hard to compare. I actively hoped and rooted for this trade to go through, and haven't seen anything yet to change my mind.

[Indazone]

Ahh an oldie article about the Kidd trade but a goodie.

Jason Kidd Trade Is a Bad One for Dallas

Brett EdwardsPosted Feb 13th 2008 7:02PM by Brett Edwards
Filed under: Nets, Mavericks, NBA Rumors, Featured Stories


After Mark Cuban just the other day said he wouldn't trade away half his team for Jason Kidd, it appears that he's done (or is on the verge of doing) exactly that. With the Lakers and Suns making huge additions -- both literally and figuratively -- to their rosters, it seems like Dallas just wasn't willing to wait and see if their roster, once healthy, could compete with these clubs for a title. Sure the Mavericks have their share of issues, but as I see it, the addition of Kidd doesn't help to solve any of them.


The Mavericks' problems this year have been a lack of depth and too many injuries, which together can make for a deadly combination. Just look at the Mavs' last game against the Sixers, where they managed to score only 23 points in the entire second half. That's what happens when Jerry Stackhouse, Devin Harris, and Erick Dampier all sit with injuries, and you're left with the likes of Devean George and DeSagana Diop in your starting lineup. But despite all that, Dallas still has a 34-17 record, currently good for third in the West. When considering the fact that both Harris and Stack -- two main rotation guys -- were both expected back in the next couple of weeks, it seems that the injury portion of Dallas' problems would have worked itself out rather quickly.


Let's discuss the Mavericks' depth, or at this point, their lack of it. By giving up George, Diop, and Stack, and Harris, it's basically a four-for-one swap. Because all four of those guys (when healthy) get some minutes for Dallas, and they're only getting back one guy who is likely to see the court. The Mavs are also now extremely thin at the five spot, with only Dampier being a legitimate fit for that position. Not that Diop is all that great, but at least he's a seven-footer (with six fouls to give) who can bother the likes of Shaq, Duncan, Bynum, and Gasol. Who's going to guard those guys once Dampier gets into foul trouble? Six-foot-eight Brandon Bass? Dirk? Newly-acquired Malik Allen? It's a tough question, and one that Avery Johnson is going to need to find an answer for almost immediately.


The crux of the trade though comes down to this: right now, do you think Jason Kidd is better than Devin Harris? Obviously the Mavs think that Kidd's passing, rebounding, and veteran leadership are the missing pieces to their championship puzzle, but just about all the numbers say otherwise. John Hollinger has a variety of statistical points showing how Harris is more productive than Kidd, on both the offensive and defensive ends of the floor. Oh, and let's not forget the fact that Harris is 10 years younger than Kidd. This is obviously a move to win right-effing-now by Dallas, with absolutely no regard for the team's future.


There's one little loophole that in my mind could save this trade from being a complete disaster for Dallas, and that's the possibility of getting Jerry Stackhouse back on their roster. How could this happen? The Nets are rumored to be interested in buying out Stack's contract before he ever plays for them, which would make him an unrestricted free agent. After a 30-day waiting period, Stack could return to Dallas. Getting to keep a veteran scorer like Stack around would make this a lot less painful for the Mavs, especially come playoff time. And then of course the depth issue wouldn't be so dire, either.


Overall though, I just can't see this deal as making things any better for the Mavs. Based on the decision to trade Devin Harris -- a point guard who has better numbers than Kidd and who's 10 years younger -- along with some much-needed depth for basically the hope that Kidd's intangibles will put them over the top come playoff time, I'm just not seeing this as a positive move for Dallas. And if they don't get that championship with Kidd over the next couple of seasons, they're seriously going to wish they hadn't given up on a rising star like Harris, who could have been the leader of their team for several years to come. I think that once the season has been played out, it will show that this was a total panic deal by Dallas. One that was brought on by the recent moves of the Lakers and Suns, and one that the Mavericks will surely live to regret.

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2008/02/13/jason-kidd-trade-is-a-bad-one-for-dallas/

[Indazone]

and of course.. the opinions of the Nets fans. Yes I believe.

In the demise of a once great franchise.

http://www.sportsline.com/mcc/messages/chrono/6513052/0/0/6588880#ID6588880


February 21, 2008 12:14 am
Score: 99

I have wanted Kidd off this team for almost a full year now and I am so glad he is finally gone. The team looks so much looser and happier without him here, not to mention the effort they played with that we have not seen all year long. I am so glad I don't have to ever see that whiney, headache faking, wife beating, woman groping, selfish, quitter in a Nets uniform ever again.

I wanted to get Bynum for Kidd last season, but after the emergence of Josh Boone and the drafting of Sean Williams, this may be the better deal for us. I can't believe we got so much.

It was clear from the start of this year that Jason Kidd had lost a step. He could no longer defend like he once could, his shot has regressed even more and he is shooting a terrible percentage, and he is now more turnover prone than I have ever seen him in his career. Yeah he got triple doubles this year, but we lost most of those games anyway. He played without passion and seemed not to care and I doubt he did. I was convinced two months ago that the Nets would be a better team with Marcus Williams in the game than Kidd because Williams brings another dimension to the floor since he is a threat to scrore at any time. Our set offense was awful with Kidd because he could only scrore on the fast break or from a wide open shot, so that made the rest of our players easier to defend.

With Kidd being clearly on the downside of his career and pretty close to washed up as well as demanding to be traded, I can't believe we got so much. We got a PG who is only 24 years old and is already considered to be a top 10 PG in the league and is known as the second fasted man in the NBA after Barbosa. He is also a great defender. Getting Diop is also huge because he is like a coordinated version of Jason Collins, which is much better than the actual Jason Collins because he can move his feet, catch the ball and sometimes get it in the hoop.

I am also glad that George and Stackhouse ruined the original deal because I really like what Trenton Hassel brings to the team. He is one of the top defenders in the league, he can consistently knock down the mid range shot, and he hustles like there is no tomorrow. Maurice Ager has a chance to develope into something as well since he was great at Michigan St.

After getting all of this I can't believe we also got two 1st round draft picks!!!! This is amazing.

To sum up, this deal is great for the Nets and I like where we are heading. The Mavericks are morons. We weren't going to win anything with Kidd and neither are they so for them to mortgage their future for a 35 year old PG who skills have already diminished is unbelievably dumb, but thanks Mavs. We have a ton of young talent and a bright, bright future. With one trade we have essentialy just gone through the entire rebuilding process without even having to go through the seasons of poor play and missing the playoffs that most teams have to suffer through. Good riddance Jason Kidd. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. I can't wait to see Harris out there.
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Good Riddance Jason Kidd
+
Good Riddance Jason Kidd
-
King o fNY
Reputation:93
Level:All-Star
Since:Jan 30, 2008

February 21, 2008 1:15 am
Score: 42

Great post AvesNailsElisha.

I don’t want to go much in the wife beating stuff because they were allegations. I am also glad to see Kidd go. Dallas may have forgotten, but Kidd was a growing cancer. Having Kidd on the team, it seem as if we were bless by God himself for allow him to play for our team. Kidd has openly spoke about how much he wanted to play for other teams.

He’s not as bad as Alonzo Morning, but Jason is no good. Kidd turned his back on the organization that helped to resurrect his image after it was tarnished in Dallas and Phoenix. The fake headaches and attempt to force the Nets hand and lower his trade value is low class. This is why I didn’t understand why people wanted Kidd’s number retired after he retire. He never seemed appreciative of playing for the Nets. Don’t get me wrong, Kidd is a great player. But his best days are well behind him.

We are better off without Jason Kidd. I thought that Jason Kidd was the only player with a child the way the Nets organization and the television personnel placated towards his son. Jason Kidd is a diva. He can't play for Quinn Buckner so the Mavs fire the coach. He couldn't play for Bryan Scott and Scott got fired. He didn't like the Phoenix organization saying that he wasn't a got scorer, so he use a game when the Nets vs the Suns to display how you need not score to effective. He doesn't get his way so he get a headache.

I don’t hate Kidd or Love him. I don’t care anymore. We are moving on. Kidd has gone under the knife and had surgery on his knees. His shelf life is coming to its end. Thorn did a great job.

We got a solid young point guard and draft picks. We have cap space and some serviceable parts. Our future looker Brighter without Kidd in the picture. Now lets see how Lawence Frank is as coach. He placated to Kidd. He knew why the last coach got fired. I think Frank is better than what he get credit for. Without Kidd being so demanding, we can now see if he is really as good as I think he is.
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Good Riddance Jason Kidd
+
Good Riddance Jason Kidd
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Tray69
Reputation:99
Level:Superstar
Since:Sep 15, 2006

February 21, 2008 12:28 pm
Score: 99
I couldn't agree more with you guys. The Nets actually played with life last night. Perfect example is when Richard Jefferson flew out of nowhere to block a 3 point attempt by Ben Gordon late in the game, when probably last week he would have just stared at him as he drains the open 3. Jason Kidd was a cancer to this team. Even Marc Jackson kept ripping on him all night, making fun of how he couldn't score and how he had a triple single last night. Everybody in this orgainization is so happy he is gone and we got great players and we haven't even got to see Devin Harris in a Net uniform yet. And I can only imagine who those 1st round picks are going to be, especially if this J Kidd trade causes the Mavs to stink and we turn out getting a lottery pick in the 2010 draft. Great trade, I love it and I actually enjoy watching the Nets again. Now all they have to do is fire Lawerence Frank and this team will be complete.
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Good Riddance Jason Kidd
+
Good Riddance Jason Kidd
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PNC123
Reputation:93
Level:All-Star
Since:Sep 19, 2007

February 21, 2008 4:02 pm
Score: 91
I am in total agreement with you guys too. We have something to look forward to now and some picks for the future to trade up with. I think Rod Thorn deserves a lot of creadit for holding out for a GREAT deal.

[mavsfan1000]

Lol at the original poster getting excited about Ager and Hassell. Lmao. Yeah I think the trade is bad but the only pieces that matter are Harris and Diop and the draft picks could help.

[Indazone]

The sounds of crickets chirping...

[DiRkGOHARD]

Mavs go hard!!

[Findog]

The sounds of crickets chirping...

Yes, Nets fans are the final authority on the Kidd trade.

Didn't even read the articles you posted.

[Obstructed_View]

I have wanted Kidd off this team for almost a full year now and I am so glad he is finally gone. The team looks so much looser and happier without him here, not to mention the effort they played with that we have not seen all year long. I am so glad I don't have to ever see that whiney, headache faking, wife beating, woman groping, selfish, quitter in a Nets uniform ever again.
I wonder if the Nets fan above feels the same way after the Nets went 9-17 after the Chicago game (when he wrote it) and dropped out of playoff contention. I guess they were happy not to have Kidd around bugging them to try to win every night.

If the Nets needed a point guard to get points, rebounds and assists every night just to give them a chance (which looks more true by the day), then they're going to need to get some more pieces before Harris is going to help them win.

[ludda]

While Nets fans have reason to be happy about the trade, some of the comments skimming over are ridiculous. Kidd turned that franchise around, I guess him being a "cancer" and a "diva" with his previous teams over his career didn't matter all that much when he took them to the finals twice.

[Obstructed_View]

While Nets fans have reason to be happy about the trade, some of the comments skimming over are ridiculous. Kidd turned that franchise around, I guess him being a "cancer" and a "diva" with his previous teams over his career didn't matter all that much when he took them to the finals twice.
It seems like Kidd has kind of politicked for a trade the past two years. I can understand how a fanbase would be bitter about that. The Mavs turned on Devin Harris for less than that.

[DaDakota]

Wow - this poll is almost 50/50...and this after getting off to a very dubious start.

DD

[DaDakota]

Ehem....how is that trade looking now?

;)

DD

[monosylab1k]

oh what a shocker you're talking about the Mavericks again. damn you're obsessed.

[DaDakota]

oh what a shocker you're talking about the Mavericks again. damn you're obsessed.

LOL dude, just jerking your chain.....

I could not believe that you guys lost to Seattle, but your position is pretty much set in the playoffs, so not really all that surprising.

Meanwhile, my team, who had EVERYTHING to play for, basically tanked against the Nuggets.....very dissappointing.

It looks like Houston & San Antonio are manuevering to get a favorable matchup.

Houston is trying to get Utah, and San Antonio is trying to get Houston.

Should be interesting.

DD

[dude1394]

Much has been talked about the mavs' defensive issues without devin/diop in lieu of kidd/allen. I think KG has highlighted numbers to show that this isn't really true. This post at mavs moneyball is very illuminating and heartening. Even with ko'ach pulling the strings.

http://www.mavsmoneyball.com/story/2008/4/13/212245/788


Heading Into The Post-Season: Defense
By Jake
Posted on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:22:45 PM EDT

With a playoff spot guaranteed, and the season over in a number of days, now is the time to start assessing the Mavs as a playoff team. This is the first in a series of articles heading into round one, where I'll look at the Mavs various strengths and weaknesses. I'll start with a broad view and then focus on individual players and elements of the team. Today I look at overall defense.

While some online press have recently outlined that the Mavs have abandoned defense as a core value, my perception has been quite a bit different. Certainly, I felt the Mavs began the year with lackluster defensive effort (and I wrote about that in my review of the first half of the season). My conclusion then was simple: The Mavs just weren't making an effort on the defensive end. But as the season has gone along, I've seen the defensive intensity ratcheted up, especialy since Jason Kidd has joined the team.

As how a team is performing directly heading into the playoffs is of critical importance (witness Golden State last year), I decided to see how the Mavericks overall defensive efficiency (points given up per 100 possessions) has trended from game one to last night. If the team started with a mediocre defense but has ended the season with some dominant performances, then that is excellent news come playoff time.

To get a picture of how the team has trended while also removing the game-to-game fluctuations ("noise"), I averaged the season defense in ten game increments. The only exception was that I wanted to get a view of Kidd's impact, so I used his arrival as a cutoff point. Here are the results. Note that lower is better, because it means you're giving up fewer points:

http://www.mavelo.us/images/defense.jpg
One of the first things I noticed was the large spike of very poor defense heading into around game 20. If you remember back a few posts, I noted that it appeared that coach Avery Johnson pulled back the tempo of the Mavs offense, taking the keys away from Devin Harris. It's not unreasonable, looking at this data, to conclude that Johnson saw serious erosion on the defensive side due to Harris' lack of control of the offense, and thus pulled things back significantly. In terms of defense, it clearly worked. The Mavs defense improved significantly as the Mavs offense dramatically slowed its pace.

After around game 40, the Mavs defense started to degrade again. And then an amazing thing happened--the Mavs traded their "all defense" point guard (at least according to John Hollinger) Devin Harris for an aging point guard whose best defensive days were presumably behind him, Jason Kidd. The impact can clearly be seen in the graph. Shortly after Kidd arrived, the Mavs defense got all medieval. In fact, over the past 12 games, the Mavs defensive efficiency is 102.9, which would put the team at fourth in the league, closely behind San Antonio.

As far as looking to the playoffs, you couldn't ask for a better view of the Mavs defense than what we see here. We trade for a new point guard, and he has practically an immediate impact on the defense, and the trend since his arrival is from good range to the dominant range. In fact, the Mavs performance has actually been even better than these stats show, as one of the nuances here is that in this trend toward defensive dominance, the Mavs played some of the best offensive teams in the league, including the top FIVE offenses in the league--Utah, Phoenix, LA Lakers, Golden State, and New Orleans. Quite simply, the Mavs are heading into the playoffs playing playoff defense.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

oh what a shocker you're talking about the Mavericks again. damn you're obsessed.
Why the Rasho avatar?

[DaDakota]

Huh,

I wonder how people would vote today....NEVER doubt the DD and his basketball wisdom...you will consistently get PWNED !!

;)

DD

[Ghazi]

Good for you, want a fucking cookie? Go fuck yourself. :)

[SmellyFeet]

Hindsight is always 20/20, bitch.

[SenorSpur]

Isn't it obvious by now that the Mavs panicked and made a reactionary trade?

[DaDakota]

Hindsight.....lol, I started this thread right after the trade.......said it was a horrible deal and would screw Dallas out of their status.

Yep...it did.

DD

[Findog]

Hindsight.....lol, I started this thread right after the trade.......said it was a horrible deal and would screw Dallas out of their status.

Yep...it did.

DD

So to sum up, Dallas is now a pretender, just like Houston has always been. I guess that explains your glee, since misery loves company.

[stretch]

all this shows is how much DaDakota actually lacks basketball knowledge.

fact is, the system, the players... none of it was fitting for Harris' style of play, which is to have everyone clear out and let him drive (which is all they do in New Jersey). Dallas already had 3 people who can average 20+ PPG in Dirk, Terry, and Howard. Why would you change the system completely just so that Harris can score 20 ppg, when you already got three guys that do? Fact is, the Mavericks needed a better passer, size, and three point shooting. Kidd does all of those things better than Harris. Also, another fact is that Dirk is still in his prime. The Mavericks need to win now while he is still able to play at such a high level.

DaDakota is such a fucking moron, to sit here and preach about how much he knows about basketball, when he is basically saying that the Mavericks should take away the system, shots, and PT that made their #1 player (Dirk Nowitzki) who has become the greatest player in franchise history, a HOF lock, and is among the greatest players in NBA history, just to give a young inconsistent, injury prone guard a chance to shine? What sense does that make? Fucking idiot.

[DaDakota]

Poor stretch, you actually think that Devin Harris would be bad in Dallas' system.

Here Stretch, let me give you a clue, since you obviously have none.

You do realize that they have to play defense too, right? Or that Josh Howard has struggled mightily since the trade (weren't they best friends?)

Chemistry class will begin when DD rings the bell.

DD

[monosylab1k]

Hindsight.....lol, I started this thread right after the trade.......said it was a horrible deal and would screw Dallas out of their status.

Yep...it did.

DD

You're so wrong about this it's not even funny. Would this team be better with Devin Harris? Sure they would. But Jason Kidd is far from the problem this season, and the problems on the team this season aren't solved by Devin Harris.

Bad trade? Yes. Is it the reason the Mavs suck now? Absolutely not.

The Mavs are 14-11 right now, and would be only 1 or 2 games better if Harris was still here.

Also, the Mavericks were a first round exit playoff team with Devin still on the roster. Funny how everyone forgets how Devin Harris Christ got assplowed by Baron Davis in the playoffs a couple years ago.

[Findog]

Dallas was first in the West when Devin got hurt. They had slipped to 5th or 6th at the time of the trade. If Devin suffers a high ankle sprain and continues to be about as durable as Yao and McGrady, then the trade will be seen as slightly less bad. His durability issues were part of the reason that Dallas was willing to part with him.

The teams main weaknesses were lack of perimeter defense and lack of post scoring. Kidd addressed neither, and while the team couldn't stop Wade or Davis, it certainly didn't make sense to trade away your best perimeter defender. I tried to be a good little Mavs fan and wave pom-poms for the trade after vehemently arguing against it in the month of January, but that was just being optimistic and open-minded that Donnie Nelson, who actually has a job in professional basketball, had more common sense than I did.

Kidd is actually finally doing this year what he was brought here to do, but it's also clear that the team needed a more thorough retooling than just Kidd for Harris. I feel bad for him until I remember that he's going to sign with the Cavs or Lakers next summer for the MLE and we'll have traded away Devin, 2 #1's, including a potential lottery pick in 2010, along with Josh Howard's motivation, for a year and a half of mediocre basketball. In retrospect, Avery should've been fired right after Golden State. If Harris were still here, he'd be the #2 option and averaging about 18-19 a game with about 4-5 assists. And the Lakers don't impress me that much*, so we'd have an excellent chance to come out of the West.

* You can always tell how well the Lakers are doing by 21 Blessings' willingness to post. When they look like world beaters and legitimate title contenders, he's here talking his little bitch ass off. When they struggle and look like they would lose to Cleveland or Boston in a 7-game series, he's nowhere to be found.

[Ghazi]

You know if you take Dirk off the roster and replace him with nobody... it's arguable that it would "only" cost the Mavs 20 games in a 82 game season.

That means, if the Mavs go 52-30 with Nowitzki playing 82 games, they would go 32-50 if he didn't play.

That's what I believe, it's not as if a team gets 20 points worse cause it loses DIrk. We're winning games by 2 points now, we wouldn't lose them by 18 w/o Dirk.

Harris arguably would make us 4-5 games better over 82 games and maybe 2-3 points better per game... so while it appears the team downgraded with the trade, it's not as if there aren't other glaring roster holes.

We can speculate whether those draft picks should've been used on a better deal, such as an offensive center or a shooting guard, but if you take this Mavs team, swap Jason Kidd w/ Devin Harris... it's likely the same, or onlyslightly better.

[DaDakota]

Also, the Mavericks were a first round exit playoff team with Devin still on the roster. Funny how everyone forgets how Devin Harris Christ got assplowed by Baron Davis in the playoffs a couple years ago.

Mono, that was one playoff series, that is entirely my point, Cuban panicked, you don't panic when your team wins like 67 games in the regular season, and gets bounced in the 1st round.

You just let the younger players learn from that experience and come back stronger, remember Kobe at 19 years old shooting air balls against the Jazz in the playoffs?

Devin today is better than Devin 2 years ago...and the Mavs would be a lot lot better with him than Kidd.

He puts so much pressure on the defense with his drives, and it makes everyone better.

Devin Harris killed us, when we played you guys, now.....the Mavs are just a shell of a team, a fringe playoff team....from 67 wins to maybe not even making it in 2 short years......

Come on, Cuban screwed the pooch here.....and I like the guy...but he blew it.

DD

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Huh,

I wonder how people would vote today....NEVER doubt the DD and his basketball wisdom...you will consistently get PWNED !!

;)

DD

Yep, you gotta be in some way related to da_suns_fan.

[mavsfan1000]

Time for Cuban to resign.

[Darrin]

Dallas is toast, Kidd or no Kidd. Devin Harris lighting up the New York television market with all this scoring.

[Obstructed_View]

Time for Cuban to resign.

Hi, stupid. This is the second time I've seen you mention this, so I just want to let you know that Mark Cuban wasn't hired to be the team's owner. He'd have to sell the team.

What he needs to do is be an owner and stop getting involved with personnel decisions.

[mavsfan1000]

Hi, stupid. This is the second time I've seen you mention this, so I just want to let you know that Mark Cuban wasn't hired to be the team's owner. He'd have to sell the team.

What he needs to do is be an owner and stop getting involved with personnel decisions.
Resigning as meaning to sell the team. Not staying as the owner of the mavs because of the disgrace he caused this team. Better?

[Obstructed_View]

The Mavs are 14-11 right now, and would be only 1 or 2 games better if Harris was still here.

Ain't just a river in Egypt, is it?

You fail to mention that they'd also have a free agent that they could have signed with the money they spent on Diop, as well as whoever they'd have taken with pick 21 in the draft.

How good would they be now with Harris, Diop, James Posey and Nicolas Batum or Luc Mbah a Moute? Could have happened.

[Obstructed_View]

Resigning as meaning to sell the team. Not staying as the owner of the mavs because of the disgrace he caused this team. Better?

I guess so, but to be fair to Mark Cuban, the team was a disgrace before he bought it. That's not a characterization even I would make about what he's done to the team.

[de Soto]

The mavs suck. They'll NEVER, as in NEVER EVER, be champs. Period.

[stretch]

Mono, that was one playoff series.


He also got facefucked by Dwayne Wade in the Finals. Big guards + Devin Harris = big trouble.

[stretch]

Poor stretch, you actually think that Devin Harris would be bad in Dallas' system.

He obviously wasn't doing all that great, when you compared what he was doing, to what he is doing in New Jersey, where they made the system entirely for him.


You do realize that they have to play defense too, right? Or that Josh Howard has struggled mightily since the trade (weren't they best friends?)

Jason Kidd actually plays pretty damn good defense, arguably better than what Harris did when he was around. Obviously you wouldn't know, Rockets fan, because you are too busy watching Jason Terry light the Rockets up for 30 every time he sees them.

Also, being buddies shouldn't make you play worse when you get traded. See Dirk/Nash. Both won MVP when they were split apart. To bag on the trade because they were friends shows how even more fucking stupid you are.


Gay butt-fucking class will begin when DD rings the bell.

[stretch]

Not staying as the owner of the mavs because of the disgrace he caused this team.

Bandwagon fans like you are a far bigger disgrace than Cuban, his moves, or the clip constantly shown of T-Mac dunking on Bradley could ever possibly be.

[mavsfan1000]

Bandwagon fans like you are a far bigger disgrace than Cuban, his moves, or the clip constantly shown of T-Mac dunking on Bradley could ever possibly be.
Go Nets btw. :lol

[stretch]

Go Nets btw. :lol

:td

your attempts to be funny = fail

[Obstructed_View]

He also got facefucked by Dwayne Wade in the Finals. Big guards + Devin Harris = big trouble.

Nice goin' mini-Mono. I thought the refs gave everything to Wade in that series. How is that Harris' fault? Funny how you guys change your tune when it suits the argument. How about you get back on topic and answer my question from a few posts back.

[monosylab1k]

How about you get back on topic and answer my question from a few posts back.

Your question has nothing to do with the topic. How about you get back on topic.

[stretch]

Nice goin' mini-Mono. I thought the refs gave everything to Wade in that series. How is that Harris' fault? Funny how you guys change your tune when it suits the argument. How about you get back on topic and answer my question from a few posts back.

Mini-mono?

:rolleyes

Anyways... I've never been one to blame the series on the refs. Were there questionable calls? Of course, anyone with eyes could see that. Even Heat fans. But Harris was getting his head beat in by Wade when he was guarding him. To be somewhat fair, Wade is simply damn good, and not many people can guard him well, but he was seriously eating Harris alive every time he tried to guard him.

Harris has never been very good at defending big guards.

And what question are you talking about? I don't really recall you asking me a question, but I'll go back and read to see what you asked me.

[Obstructed_View]

Your question has nothing to do with the topic. How about you get back on topic.

Thread title: Kidd Trade - Good or bad?


How good would they be now with Harris, Diop, James Posey and Nicolas Batum or Luc Mbah a Moute? Could have happened.

Okay, we're back on topic. The trade wasn't just a swap of Harris and Kidd. Now answer the fucking question.

[z0sa]

How good would they be now with Harris, Diop, James Posey and Nicolas Batum or Luc Mbah a Moute? Could have happened.

Ouch, if true, Mavfan gotta be pissed.

[stretch]

How good would they be now with Harris, Diop, James Posey and Nicolas Batum or Luc Mbah a Moute? Could have happened.

Could have? No shit. It's easy to look back and say all kinds of shit COULD HAVE happened. They COULD have traded Dirk and Nash for Shaq back in 2004. They COULD have traded Dirk for Kobe last year. The coulda woulda shit is pointless to blow your chode over.

[Obstructed_View]

Could have? No shit. It's easy to look back and say all kinds of shit COULD HAVE happened. They COULD have traded Dirk and Nash for Shaq back in 2004. They COULD have traded Dirk for Kobe last year. The coulda woulda shit is pointless to blow your chode over.

Um...



The Mavs are 14-11 right now, and would be only 1 or 2 games better if Harris was still here.

I'll say it again: Answer the question.

[stretch]

Ouch, if true, Mavfan gotta be pissed.

It's not true at all. No one ever said that Posey and those other guys were going to come to Dallas. Was it possible? MAYBE. True? By no fucking means. Obstructed_View is just being a fucking dumbass. The most that ever came out about anything like that was that the Mavs were interested in Posey. But he signed with Boston, as fucking everyone was wanting to go to Boston after the KG and Allen pickups they got. He wasn't going to come to the Mavericks.

[Obstructed_View]

How good would the Mavs have been with Harris, Diop, (insert first round draft pick here) and (insert MLE free agent here) instead of with Kidd?

Answer the question.

[stretch]

Um...



I'll say it again: Answer the question.

:rolleyes

Okay dude, what you were saying, and what mono said are two completely different things and you know it. If you say you don't, or some stupid shit like "he said would have which is exactly what I said", I have nothing further to discuss with your ignorant ass.

[monosylab1k]

How good would the Mavs have been with Harris, Diop, (insert first round draft pick here) and (insert MLE free agent here) instead of with Kidd?

Answer the question.

Not much better.

Question answered.

Now answer me - Do you really think Devin Harris as the 4th option, unable to dominate the ball and do as he wishes for 40 minutes a night the way he does in New Jersey, along with a role player like James Posey, makes the first round exit Mavs a title contender on the same level as the Lakers and Celtics?

Is the Kidd trade a bad one? It certainly appears so. But unless Devin Harris leads the Nets to a title, it is nowhere near the disaster that stat-driven, "who needs to watch games when you can just look up box scores!", basketball morons are making it out to be.

[stretch]

How good would the Mavs have been with Harris, Diop, (insert first round draft pick here) and (insert MLE free agent here) instead of with Kidd?

Answer the question.

There is no telling. We have Diop anyways, and he is sucking balls. So basically it comes down to Kidd and Harris. Harris has been doing more scoring, while Kidd has been playing great defense, distributing shots well, and hitting open 3s... none of which were Harris' strong suits. And for those who praise Harris' defense so much... yes, he did a good job against Parker, but other than that, his defense consisted of drawing charges, and not much else. Kidd is doing a great job at getting steals by cutting off passing lanes, forcing opponents into tough shots (which is the best type of defense someone can play, see Bowen/Posey), and rebounding effectively.

And for people who talk about how he got "killed" by CP3, that is an absolutely ridiculous way to judge his defense. To guard a player the caliber of CP3, it takes a team effort. There isn't anyone who can consistently guard players like him one on one. Kidd actually did a pretty solid job on him when Dampier was in the game. As soon as Damp went out, thats when the Hornets would go on their runs because no one was manning the middle, leading to globs of open buckets for their athletic players. Having a guy in the middle forces a team to change the way they defend COMPLETELY.

[monosylab1k]

And for people who talk about how he got "killed" by CP3, that is an absolutely ridiculous way to judge his defense.

Devin Harris got "killed" by CP3 just a few months earlier in a Mavs uniform.

Oh, but that was before he got basketball lessons from Jesus, so it doesn't count.

Somehow all of Devin's failures as a Maverick are thrown right out the window as him simply being inexperienced, yet just a few months later as a Net he's talked about like a seasoned veteran who is smart beyond his years. And those faggots have the nerve to say Mavs fans change opinions to fit their arguments :lmao

[monosylab1k]

And Mavs fans, don't forget - Spurs fans know more about your team than you do. They root for a team with 4 rings, so that proves it.

[dirk4mvp]

I don't know why Spurfan dislikes Kidd so much. If they would've signed him in 03, they'd be in a 4peat right now.

[Obstructed_View]

:rolleyes

Okay dude, what you were saying, and what mono said are two completely different things and you know it.

Yeah, they're actually two different things, mine is the corrected version of what Mono said. The discussion is whether or not the trade is good, and you can't just say "well Devin Harris would be worth X if he were here instead of Kidd" because the Mavs traded away a whole lot more than Devin Harris to get Kidd. They had to waste the entire MLE on Diop, which they could have used to get someone else. And actually he might have been an expiring contract so he wouldn't have been part of my scenario, which means little because, like you said, he sucks this year anyway.

[DaDakota]

The trade sucked, KnowstroDDamus strikes again.

;)

DD

[Findog]

it wasn't just Kidd for Harris, that they also threw in two first-round picks, one of which could be a lottery pick in 2010 and is completely unprotected. So therefore the onus is on them to remain a playoff-level team to keep the deal from getting worse. Harris was a 25-year-old PG that had just signed an extension and is locked up for several years at a bargain price. OV is correct that the Mavericks also essentially traded away this year's MLE in order to bring back Diop. Dallas is so far over the cap that when Kidd signs with Cleveland or the Lakers this summer for the MLE, the Mavs won't even get any salary cap relief when his cap number comes off the books.

It's true Harris wouldn't be getting 25 points and 5 dimes a game in Dallas; it would be more like 18 points and 4 assists. And while Kidd is playing relatively well, it's the height of denial to state that Harris is not as good a fit right now, as opposed to down the line when Kidd will be beating his next wife while Harris is in his prime. The reason why Chauncey Billups is better than Jason Kidd at basically the same stage of their careers is that as your athleticism and lateral quickness wanes, your skill set should be compensatory. Billups can still shoot, Kidd can't.

Dallas was first in the West when Harris played his last game for us. It's forgivable that the Dallas brass was concerned about Harris' fragility and ability to play more than 55 games in a season. More than anything that was why he was available in a trade. But the teams' biggest weaknesses were lack of perimeter defense and post scoring. WTF were they smoking by trading away their best perimeter defender for a guy who does nothing to address the lack of points in the paint? At least with Harris you can offset the lack of a traditional back to the basket scorer by an ability to penetrate the lane. Looking back, if you were going to trade Harris at all, it should've been for a post scorer while handing the starting PG duties over to JET. That might've worked. They made a Finals with JET as the starter at the 1, anyways.

[monosylab1k]

it wasn't just Kidd for Harris, that they also threw in two first-round picks, one of which could be a lottery pick in 2010 and is completely unprotected. So therefore the onus is on them to remain a playoff-level team to keep the deal from getting worse. Harris was a 25-year-old PG that had just signed an extension and is locked up for several years at a bargain price. OV is correct that the Mavericks also essentially traded away this year's MLE in order to bring back Diop. Dallas is so far over the cap that when Kidd signs with Cleveland or the Lakers this summer for the MLE, the Mavs won't even get any salary cap relief when his cap number comes off the books.

It's true Harris wouldn't be getting 25 points and 5 dimes a game in Dallas; it would be more like 18 points and 4 assists. And while Kidd is playing relatively well, it's the height of denial to state that Harris is not as good a fit right now, as opposed to down the line when Kidd will be beating his next wife while Harris is in his prime. The reason why Chauncey Billups is better than Jason Kidd at basically the same stage of their careers is that as your athleticism and lateral quickness wanes, your skill set should be compensatory. Billups can still shoot, Kidd can't.

Dallas was first in the West when Harris played his last game for us. It's forgivable that the Dallas brass was concerned about Harris' fragility and ability to play more than 55 games in a season. More than anything that was why he was available in a trade. But the teams' biggest weaknesses were lack of perimeter defense and post scoring. WTF were they smoking by trading away their best perimeter defender for a guy who does nothing to address the lack of points in the paint? At least with Harris you can offset the lack of a traditional back to the basket scorer by an ability to penetrate the lane. Looking back, if you were going to trade Harris at all, it should've been for a post scorer while handing the starting PG duties over to JET. That might've worked. They made a Finals with JET as the starter at the 1, anyways.

And if they don't do the trade, they lose Dirk. Both on the court and off it. You think Dirk is talking about taking less money to stay here if we're still stuck with the exact same team, and possibly the same coach, that's failed for half a decade now?

The Mavs immediate future has nothing to do with Devin, Kidd, Josh, or anybody else. For better or worse, this team lives and dies with Dirk. And if Dirk doesn't want to play here anymore, if Dirk has given up on the Mavs, this team is completely in the tank whether Devin is still here or not.

I've been a "blow it up" advocate since the GS series, but most Mavs fans are not. Most Mavs fans love Dirk to the point where they are blind to his faults. Heck, I love Dirk too. And when it comes down to it, would most Mavs fans pick Dirk or Devin? Because in the end, that's what the trade boiled down to. Keep Devin and you lose Dirk. Trade Devin and Dirk still believes in the Mavericks. So which is it, Dirk or Devin?

[Findog]

And if they don't do the trade, they lose Dirk. Both on the court and off it. You think Dirk is talking about taking less money to stay here if we're still stuck with the exact same team, and possibly the same coach, that's failed for half a decade now?

The Mavs immediate future has nothing to do with Devin, Kidd, Josh, or anybody else. For better or worse, this team lives and dies with Dirk. And if Dirk doesn't want to play here anymore, if Dirk has given up on the Mavs, this team is completely in the tank whether Devin is still here or not.

I've been a "blow it up" advocate since the GS series, but most Mavs fans are not. Most Mavs fans love Dirk to the point where they are blind to his faults. Heck, I love Dirk too. And when it comes down to it, would most Mavs fans pick Dirk or Devin? Because in the end, that's what the trade boiled down to. Keep Devin and you lose Dirk. Trade Devin and Dirk still believes in the Mavericks. So which is it, Dirk or Devin?

Kobe once stood in a Ralph's parking lot and in colorful language advocated a Bynum for Kidd trade...and then went through with a formal trade request when that didn't happen. Bynum has regressed this year, but has shown enough and is young enough to validate the wisdom of LA not making that move. Avery was the main engine behind giving up on Devin, not Dirk. Dirk simply gave his approval. I know he was unhappy last year, but I think that had a lot more to do with The Little Dictator than Devin. I don't think it's a simple as choosing between Dirk and Devin. I think the Kidd trade is a good example of why you don't let your star players who only see the objects of their desire twice a year play GM. If the Mavs made a substantial move that didn't specifically involve Kidd, I think Dirk would've been mollified.

[monosylab1k]

If the Mavs made a substantial move that didn't specifically involve Kidd, I think Dirk would've been mollified.

It didn't matter who they went after, whether it was Kidd or Shaq or Gasol....Devin Harris was their most coveted trading chip.

[monosylab1k]

At least the Mavs were smart enough to avoid doing the deal that would have sent Harris to Portland. Can you imagine how much more badass the Blazers would be right now with Devin? Tlong's sheep-loving penis would prematurely explode every night twice as hard as it already does now.

[Obstructed_View]

Avery was the main engine behind giving up on Devin, not Dirk. Dirk simply gave his approval.
I agree with this. Despite what AJ says, (and my wish that it was actually true), I don't think he was ever happy with Harris as his point guard, because Harris isn't the pass first kind of floor general that AJ would like to have facilitating the offense for the scorers. They already had two scoring guards in Terry and Barea, and AJ's dissatisfaction with Harris is what turned Mavs nation against him and, coupled with his injuries, ultimately made him into a trade commodity. At least that's the way it felt at the time, despite AJ's attempts to go back and whitewash it.

[Bob Lanier]

http://i40.tinypic.com/2mrfptt.gif

[Findog]

It didn't matter who they went after, whether it was Kidd or Shaq or Gasol....Devin Harris was their most coveted trading chip.

Don't you wish they had used that trading chip to address a crippling weakness? What was the reason given that would help the team? Kidd would facilitate an offense harder to shut down in the playoffs with his passing and floor vision? Kidd would give the team those intangibles that were missing against Miami and Golden State? Kidd is better in an uptempo system, and the games grind to a halt in the playoffs.

[sribb43]

This video is from August 4, 2004

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