Kidd Trade - Good or bad?

[DaDakota]

I have been having a running discussion with some bleeding heart Mavs fans about whether or not the Kidd trade was a good one or a bad one.

So, I figured put it to a poll, do you like the trade from the Mavs perspective or not?

Simple poll, was the trade good for the Mavs? Are they closer to winning a championshiop now than before the trade?

Personally, I love the trade because I think it helps my Rockets, as I believe they got weaker at the 5 spot, and they lost some serious speed and shooting on the perimeter.

Sure Kidd is a great assist guy, and rebounder, etc...but he is old, has slow lateral quickness, and other teams will force him to be a shooter in the playoffs, thus the Mavs got weaker.

What do you think.....????

Good or bad trade from the Mavs perspective?

DD

[sribb43]

I have been having a running discussion with some bleeding heart Mavs fans about whether or not the Kidd trade was a good one or a bad one.

So, I figured put it to a poll, do you like the trade from the Mavs perspective or not?

Simple poll, was the trade good for the Mavs? Are they closer to winning a championshiop now than before the trade?

Personally, I love the trade, as I believe they got weaker at the 5 spot, and they lost some serious speed and shooting on the perimeter.

Sure Kidd is a great assist guy, and rebounder, etc...but he is old, has slow lateral quickness, and other teams will force him to be a shooter in the playoffs, thus the Mavs got weaker.

What do you think.....????

Good or bad trade from the Mavs perspective?

DD

yes if Devin Harris = Ray Allen

[DaDakota]

yes if Devin Harris = Ray Allen


Kidd FG% this year is .381 and his career FG% is .401 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=429)

Harris FG% this year is .467 with a career FG% of .468 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=2382)

If you were the opposing team, which player would you dare to shoot the ball?

DD

[Dennis Green]

The Mavericks are who we thought they were! And we let em off the hook!

[nkdlunch]

vs. Spurs, it was a bad trade

vs. other teams like Suns, Lakers, it was a good trade.

Mavs chances rest in not meeting teams like Spurs or Utah

[DaDakota]

I think their record post trade which is like 14-11 is enough to prove it was a bad trade.

DD

[RocketsDynasty]

I think their record post trade which is like 14-11 is enough to prove it was a bad trade.

DD
Fluke record.

[DaDakota]

The Mavs are da bomb now!

LOL from McVeigh...nice.

RD, you think 14-11 is a fluke? What it should be worse?

I believe that you are what your record says you are......

DD

[stretch]

your poll lost. you fail. fuck you.

America, eatin' my lunch from a single bowl in my parents basement, where I'm livin'. Happy Birthday, I'm forty-three.

Don't want to waste those precious calories...chewin'. Jesus come move my jaw for me, help me get my sloppy food down my throat

[Shank]

It's like a broken record around here.

Hey DD - how did the Drexler trade work out?

[DaDakota]

your poll lost. you fail. fuck you.



Lost? In an opinion poll?

:D

No worries, my side will be proven right over time........I should have made this a public poll.

DD

[DaDakota]

It's like a broken record around here.

Hey DD - how did the Drexler trade work out?

A very valuable point.

And the Kidd trade may indeed prove to be Drexler like, and I will admit it if I am wrong and the Mavs win the championship.

But, if they don't, I seriously doubt people who like the trade will do the same.

DD

[arcticjoe]

its always easy to fall back on the tried and true "its just an opinion"

[monosylab1k]

its always easy to fall back on the tried and true "its just an opinion"
And he's stated his opinion about 100 times now, insisting on BS that is completely false and proven false by Mavs fans, and now he's put it to a poll to prove his opinion is right and he's been slapped down yet again.

It's just gotten pathetic.

[Shank]

A very valuable point.

And the Kidd trade may indeed prove to be Drexler like, and I will admit it if I am wrong and the Mavs win the championship.

But, if they don't, I seriously doubt people who like the trade will do the same.

DD

If the Mavs win the whole thing, the last thing anyone is going to want to hear is your gay admission.

If the Celtics don't win - was the KG trade worth it? Same for the Lakers and Gasol? The Cavs/Bulls swap? It's about winning championships - if you don't win it, then your season is ultimately a failure. Trades or not.

[DaDakota]

How is an opinion false Mono?

Maybe it is the stellar 14-11 record since the trade, or the 2-11 record against +.500 teams.....

Oh, wait....you said you had proof....right.....uh...ok - prove it.

DD

[DaDakota]

If the Celtics don't win - was the KG trade worth it? Same for the Lakers and Gasol? The Cavs/Bulls swap? It's about winning championships - if you don't win it, then your season is ultimately a failure. Trades or not.

Not even close to the same, the Celtics were a losing organization last year, they had to shake it up.

The Mavs were the number 1 team in the entire league last year, ran into one hot team in the playoffs, then were still close to number 1 in the WC this year and panicked into a Kidd trade.

The whole point is that you don't blow up a team that was in the finals 2 years ago, and was the best team in the league last year.

I agree it was a risk, I think it was FAR TOO GREAT a risk to take.....

DD

[monosylab1k]

How is an opinion false Mono?

Maybe it is the stellar 14-11 record since the trade, or the 2-11 record against +.500 teams.....

Oh, wait....you said you had proof....right.....uh...ok - prove it.

DD
Your claim that Kidd "dominated" the ball and didn't let the offense run through Dirk & Howard was about as ridiculously wrong as anything I've ever read on this board. Every Mavs fan on the site told you what an idiot you were for saying that.

That's just one example.

[Shank]

Not even close to the same, the Celtics were a losing organization last year, they had to shake it up.

The Mavs were the number 1 team in the entire league last year, ran into one hot team in the playoffs, then were still close to number 1 in the WC this year and panicked into a Kidd trade.

The whole point is that you don't blow up a team that was in the finals 2 years ago, and was the best team in the league last year.

I agree it was a risk, I think it was FAR TOO GREAT a risk to take.....

DD

Mavs were blown up? News to any of us.

You should focus on your own team that's about to shit the bed in the 1st round again this year.

[monosylab1k]

The whole point is that you don't blow up a team that was in the finals 2 years ago, and was the best team in the league last year.
The Mavs didn't blow up the team. I guess this can be example #2.

[DaDakota]

Mavs were blown up? News to any of us.

You should focus on your own team that's about to shit the bed in the 1st round again this year.

Actually, I am focused on them, but sadly I agree that without Yao I think realistically they will be one and done again.

They have a shot, but probably will not be favored to win in the first round....we need Yao.

:(

But hey, at least the Mavs will be out with us, maybe Mark Cuban can drive the fishing boat !

DD

[monosylab1k]

Actually, I am focused on them, but sadly I agree that without Yao I think realistically they will be one and done again.

They have a shot, but probably will not be favored to win in the first round....we need Yao.

:(

But hey, at least the Mavs will be out with us, maybe Mark Cuban can drive the fishing boat !

DD
you said the Mavs were blown up. Explain.

[arcticjoe]

jesus it seems like everyone is under the impression that diop and harris single handedly dragged the rest of the team to 67 wins...

[DaDakota]

The Mavs didn't blow up the team. I guess this can be example #2.

Depends upon your definition of blowing up the team.......I think replacing the PG.....the guy who captains your ship to be the biggest change you can make.....again, haggling over opinions.

And Harris was a starter and Diop a part time starter that is a pretty significant change.

DD

[monosylab1k]

Depends upon your definition of blowing up the team.......I think replacing the PG.....the guy who captains your ship to be the biggest change you can make.....again, haggling over opinions.

And Harris was a starter and Diop a part time starter that is a pretty significant change.

DD
so replacing your PG & backup C is blowing up a team?

By your definition the Hawks blew up their team this year.

[arcticjoe]

Depends upon your definition of blowing up the team.......I think replacing the PG.....the guy who captains your ship to be the biggest change you can make.....again, haggling over opinions.

And Harris was a starter and Diop a part time starter that is a pretty significant change.

DD


diop was barely getting any time this season.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Rofl 33-6

[DaDakota]

Don't get caught up in the numbers, a lot of times, the people that know are often in the minority.

When the dust settles and the Mavs are still championship less, and 2 more years have passed on Dirk's career.....

People will look back and go...dang....DD was right.

They always do....

:D

DD

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

That is one great response. With that said, I'm fully convinced the trade is a failure.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Rofl 33-6
Make that 41-6.

[clambake]

a little too early to tell.

harris is fast but can't start a break with any consistency.

kidd is not fast but finds open people, gets steals that lead to quick baskets.

harris can speed to the basket, kidd can on occasion.

kidd is stronger than harris but can't hit many jumpers.

dirk is a better player with kidd.

too early to tell.

[Findog]

DaDakota = Joumana?

She's obsessed with the Kidd trade.

[Findog]

Unstoppable force DeSagana Diop just had two DNP-CDs over the weekend.

[endrity]

Clearely it doesn't look good right now. Unfortunately the team had a balance with Harris that they seemingly can't find with Kidd.

Also, how Diop went into the doghouse this year is a huge mystery for me. He and Damp at C were one of the main things that made up the identity of the Mavs.

[GuerillaBlack]

A very valuable point.

And the Kidd trade may indeed prove to be Drexler like, and I will admit it if I am wrong and the Mavs win the championship.

But, if they don't, I seriously doubt people who like the trade will do the same.

DD
Well, if they go deep, I think the trade will look like a good trade. Give them another year, and see how it goes. I hope it goes bad, since you know, I'm a Rockets fan ;).

[manufor3]

no

[mavsfan1000]

The record since the trade says it all. Harris still has a higher plus/minus ratio and we got no center to backup Dampier now so I think it was bad.

[clambake]

The record since the trade says it all. Harris still has a higher plus/minus ratio and we got no center to backup Dampier now so I think it was bad.
you don't think dirk has played better since kidd's arrival?

[mavsfan1000]

you don't think dirk has played better since kidd's arrival?
Yes but the defense and rebounding has been worse. Also one less scoring threat on the offense to worry about. In the half court, this team is much worse but in a running game Dallas is definitely better. Overall I think this team is better with Harris and Diop. Kidd hurts us the most in close games because of his lack of slashing ability and midrange game.

[Findog]

Yes but the defense and rebounding has been worse.

Fail.



Overall I think this team is better with Harris and Diop.

You mean Oscar Robertson and Bill Russell?

[mavsfan1000]

Fail.
You mean Oscar Robertson and Bill Russell?
29-13 with Harris and Diop playing
13-11 with Kidd. If that's not enough, Harris has a plus/minus ratio of 6.3 in Dallas. Diop has a plus/minus ratio of -.1. Kidd has a plus/minus ratio of 3.5 and Bass has a plus/minus ratio of -11. So now it is pretty obvious why we are not doing as well now. Bass replacing Diop is a much worse subsitution and Harris is a slightly better starter than Kidd.

[Findog]

29-13 with Harris and Diop playing
13-11 with Kidd. If that's not enough, Harris has a plus/minus ratio of 6.3 in Dallas. Diop has a plus/minus ratio of -.1. Kidd has a plus/minus ratio of 3.5 and Bass has a plus/minus ratio of -11. So now it is pretty obvious why we are not doing as well now. Bass replacing Diop is a much worse subsitution and Harris is a slightly better starter than Kidd.

Yeah, and they're 13-8 when Dirk and Kidd play together. It is pretty obvious to me that our defense is better. Bass is a PF, not a C. To expect him to duplicate Diop's shotblocking is unrealistic. It's on Avery to play Dampier more minutes and not go undersized at C. He did that yesterday against Phoenix. You can't make a big trade at the trading deadline and expect this team to fire on all cylinders. They're playing better and improving, just like Phoenix has done with Shaq. It's way to premature to call this trade a failure after six weeks. Let's wait another year and a half to two years.

[mavsfan1000]

Yeah, and they're 13-8 when Dirk and Kidd play together. It is pretty obvious to me that our defense is better. Bass is a PF, not a C. To expect him to duplicate Diop's shotblocking is unrealistic. It's on Avery to play Dampier more minutes and not go undersized at C. He did that yesterday against Phoenix. You can't make a big trade at the trading deadline and expect this team to fire on all cylinders. They're playing better and improving, just like Phoenix has done with Shaq. It's way to premature to call this trade a failure after six weeks. Let's wait another year and a half to two years.
Dampier has never been able to play heavy minutes. That is what is wrong with this trade. Bass is a horrible backup. Diop held his ground but you can't expect that from Bass. We went from an average backup center to a horrible backup center even if Kidd matches Harris's plus/minus ratio.

[Findog]

Dampier has never been able to play heavy minutes. That is what is wrong with this trade. Bass is a horrible backup. Diop held his ground but you can't expect that from Bass. We went from an average backup center to a horrible backup center even if Kidd matches Harris's plus/minus ratio.

damp plays 30 minutes a game.

[DaDakota]

damp plays 30 minutes a game.

You mean 24.3mpg which is slightly below his career average of 25.4 mpg (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=181)

In fact he has averaged 30mpg only ONCE in his entire 12 year NBA career and that was in 2003-4 as the starting center for the Golden State Warriors (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=181)

Or maybe you meant since the Kidd trade, where he actually has increased his MPG....but only to a little over 26mpg (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=181)

Damp is hardly the answer, especially if he gets in foul trouble.

DD

[Findog]

You mean 24.3mpg which is slightly below his career average of 25.4 mpg (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=181)

In fact he has averaged 30mpg only ONCE in his entire 12 year NBA career and that was in 2003-4 as the starting center for the Golden State Warriors (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=181)

DD

25 minutes a game it is. I'd play him 30-35 if I were the coach. Mavs do better when they have a true C on the floor. You want to solve the Diop problem? Give 8 of his minutes to Damp and 4 to Malik Allen.

[san antonio spurs]

So if I get this correctly we're past Mavs fans crying and moaning their team. Welcome aboard

[Findog]

http://www.mavsmoneyball.com/story/2008/4/7/14441/37168


As Jason Kidd said recently, "Winning is a good deodorant." With the win over the Suns, we have a team that has turned around at least some doubting Thomases, especially with the nature of the win: A huge come-from-behind fourth quarter domination, featuring stop after stop and Dirk Nowitzki putting the team on his back (Nowitzki outscored the ENTIRE Suns team in the fourth quarter). Also, as I've mentioned almost ad nauseam against a steady stream of negatives aimed at the Mavericks, the team isn't as bad as its win-loss record looks.

So we have a bright spot or two (2-1 against winning teams in our last three games!), heading into the final stretch of the season. The question then is: How good are the Mavs?

Well, let's look at voodoo expert John Hollinger's rankings (which "predicted" the Spurs as the best team in the league last year), which have the Mavs at No. 8, sixth in the Western conference. However, his rankings change game-to-game, so it would be interesting to see how we compare to those around us. The Mavs increased .300 with the Suns win, so we can use that as a guidepoint: If we gained .300 again, where would we end up? What if we lost .300?

The answer is that, with a strong finish, the Mavs could conceivably finish at No. 6, with No. 5 being an outside shot. With a weak finish, we would end up No. 11. So, for what it's worth, Hollinger has the Mavs anywhere from No. 5 to No. 11. It should be noted that the Mavs have been trending UP recently, however, so that's a bright sign. It's also worth noting that, according to Hollinger, there are really only two real groups: Boston with a score of 111, and everyone else with a score of 107-105. In this sense, Boston will win the east, and just about anyone else he has ranked in the top ten could win the west, only to lose to Boston in the finals.

For what it's worth, Hollinger colleague Marc Stein has the Mavs ranked at No. 9 (up from a mediocre No. 15).

But enough with the Hollinger hoodoo and Stein's opinions. In pure performance terms, the Mavs, as I outlined last week, are one of the more complete teams in the league, being top ten in both offense and defense (currently ranked No. 5 on defense and No. 7 on offense). The team closest to that profile? Well, that would be New Orleans, with a No. 6 defense and a No. 4 offense. Or maybe the Los Angeles Lakers, No. 7 on defense and No. 3 on offense. Hmmm.

The good news is that the Mavs defense has been improving all season, and the Suns game gave at least a glimpse as to what the Mavs can do when they set their mind to it (even with a gimpy Nowitzki a few steps slow on the defensive end). Our offense is not as good as it was earlier in the year, but it is more versatile, an important consideration for the playoffs and people focusing on shutting down Nowitzki. Of course, the Nowitzki injury is the wild card, it is potentially exploitable, so we need to be realistic when he is on the floor. Fourth quarters like the one against the Suns are quite unlikely to be repeated.

But, the trend is good: Our offense hasn't fallen apart, even as it's become more versatile, and the defense is getting better and better.

Another trend that hasn't gotten much coverage is Dirk's improvement in the second half of the season. Stein mentions it today, discussing how the arrival of Kidd re-energized Dirk, and while that certainly helps, the reality is that Dirk has been getting better and better from even before then. Contrast this with last year, where Dirk's performance got worse and worse, only to bottom out in the playoffs. Maybe this quote from Dirk is telling, again courtesy Stein: "In some ways, I like this better," Nowitzki said. "We didn't play a meaningful game after March last year."

So where do we sit? An excited and engaged Dirk, albeit hobbled. A team with a top ten defense and offense, albeit not the win-loss record to show for it. A new point guard that creates a more varied attack and versatile offense, albeit one that doesn't score as efficiently as before.

The answer is probably right there in Hollinger's voodoo that he do: There is only one truly dominant team this year: The Boston Celtics. The rest of the teams all have as good a shot as any. In this scenario, the Mavs could exit the playoffs in the first round or make it to the finals. Either possibility is about as likely. The good news is one that you can't isolate in stats and previous game results: The Mavs seem to be improving as a team heading into the playoffs.

So how good are the mavs right now? As good as any team in the western conference playoff race. Or as bad as any team in the western conference playoff race. It makes for a fun April, that's for sure.

[baseline bum]

I don't think Harris is all that good of a player. I think the trade was bad because Kidd is on his last legs and he has regressed so much this year. Kidd has looked like an ageless wonder until now, but he's seriously gone downhill this season. It's like watching Olajuwon, Barkley, Robinson, Ewing, KJ, Mullin, etc. when their games fell off a cliff seemingly overnight. Kidd's just a name right now. He's a first ballot Hall of Famer and all, but the quickness and ability to score in traffic have left him.

[Trainwreck2100]

Is it true that Harris has more double digit assist games with the nets so far, than he had in 3+ seasons with the mavs

[DaDakota]

At least 34+ % of the people understand that the Harris and Diop Mavs team was better than the Kidd one.

So there is hope for some of you...

:D

DD

[monosylab1k]

Is it true that Harris has more double digit assist games with the nets so far, than he had in 3+ seasons with the mavs
I wouldn't doubt it. Unfortunately for NJ he's also thrown up more ill-advised off target three pointers than he had in 3+ years with the Mavs.

[Shank]

At least 34+ % of the people understand that the Harris and Diop Mavs team was better than the Kidd one.

So there is hope for some of you...

:D

DD

If the Harris/Diop Mavs team played the Kidd one, the Kidd one would win.

[mavs>spurs2]

29-13 with Harris and Diop playing
13-11 with Kidd. If that's not enough, Harris has a plus/minus ratio of 6.3 in Dallas. Diop has a plus/minus ratio of -.1. Kidd has a plus/minus ratio of 3.5 and Bass has a plus/minus ratio of -11. So now it is pretty obvious why we are not doing as well now. Bass replacing Diop is a much worse subsitution and Harris is a slightly better starter than Kidd.

Dude seriously..stop...you're making me sick to my penis. Let me try to explain:

In basketball, the PG is the team leader on the floor. He is the one making the decisions and has the toughest role on the team in running the offense. Any time you make a trade this late in the season, it's going to take some time to gel and start playing together smoothly, especially when it's the PG that is changed. Of course our record is worse with Kidd, who would expect otherwise? We just shook up the team and need games to adjust, many games. Not to mention while in the process of trying to develop chemistry, the league MVP goes down with an ankle injury, totally putting a halt to that shit. Now that he's back, I think these last 3 games against contenders tell the story, going 2-1 and only losing to LA (widely considered favorites to win it all) by 4 points and leading most of the way. This team is obviously better now that we are starting to get our shit together and anyone with basketball knowledge can see this.

[mavs>spurs2]

Yes but the defense and rebounding has been worse.

No dude, this isn't even debatable. Look at the numbers, cold hard facts. Our rebounding is up while we are holding opponents to less PPG and lower FG%.

[DaDakota]

How is the Atlanta teams record after they got a new PG in Bibby? Did they get better or worse?

Because the Mavs record after the trade is a lot worse than it was before the trade...

DD

[stretch]

Bass has a plus/minus ratio of -11.
Of course his ratio is going to go down. EVERYONE'S goes down when Dirk is out of the game, and if you know a fucking thing about the Mavericks, Bass is Dirk's backup.

[arcticjoe]

How is the Atlanta teams record after they got a new PG in Bibby? Did they get better or worse?

Because the Mavs record after the trade is a lot worse than it was before the trade...

DD


different PG different system

[mavs>spurs2]

How is the Atlanta teams record after they got a new PG in Bibby? Did they get better or worse?

Because the Mavs record after the trade is a lot worse than it was before the trade...

DD

Atlanta plays in the East. The Mavs record wouldn't have took such a brutal hit if we were in the EC. Much harder to win games with a new floor leader when you are playing such tough competition night in and night out.

[mavsfan1000]

Dude seriously..stop...you're making me sick to my penis. Let me try to explain:

In basketball, the PG is the team leader on the floor. He is the one making the decisions and has the toughest role on the team in running the offense. Any time you make a trade this late in the season, it's going to take some time to gel and start playing together smoothly, especially when it's the PG that is changed. Of course our record is worse with Kidd, who would expect otherwise? We just shook up the team and need games to adjust, many games. Not to mention while in the process of trying to develop chemistry, the league MVP goes down with an ankle injury, totally putting a halt to that shit. Now that he's back, I think these last 3 games against contenders tell the story, going 2-1 and only losing to LA (widely considered favorites to win it all) by 4 points and leading most of the way. This team is obviously better now that we are starting to get our shit together and anyone with basketball knowledge can see this.
Nope. Harris had a better plus/minus before this trade that shook us up. What shook us up is Bass playing full time backup center or any other scrub taking over. I wish we never made this trade.

[mavs>spurs2]

Nope. Harris had a better plus/minus before this trade that shook us up. What shook us up is Bass playing full time backup center or any other scrub taking over. I wish we never made this trade.

Regardless, we are playing better in these last 3 games than before the trade. We look like contenders again, something you were expecting right after bringing in a new PG and it just wasn't going to happen.

[mavsfan1000]

Regardless, we are playing better in these last 3 games than before the trade. We look like contenders again, something you were expecting right after bringing in a new PG and it just wasn't going to happen.
Harris has outplayed Kidd the whole season. We'll see if that finally changes.

[mavsfan1000]

Of course his ratio is going to go down. EVERYONE'S goes down when Dirk is out of the game, and if you know a fucking thing about the Mavericks, Bass is Dirk's backup.
It shouldn't be that bad. Bass is even worse than Van Horn.

[stretch]

It shouldn't be that bad. Bass is even worse than Van Horn.
In some ways, yes. In some ways, no.

Two COMPLETELY different types of players.

Either way, this is our team, and we gotta deal with it... not complain and whine like a little bitch on a daily fucking basis like you have been doing. That's going to accomplish absolutely nothing.

[mavsfan1000]

In some ways, yes. In some ways, no.

Two COMPLETELY different types of players.

Either way, this is our team, and we gotta deal with it... not complain and whine like a little bitch on a daily fucking basis like you have been doing. That's going to accomplish absolutely nothing.
So we should be blinded than and defend the team no matter how poor Cuban and Avery's decisions are. Alright gotcha.

[monosylab1k]

Nope. Harris had a better plus/minus before this trade that shook us up. What shook us up is Bass playing full time backup center or any other scrub taking over. I wish we never made this trade.
I wish you were still a Bulls fan.

[monosylab1k]

Harris has outplayed Kidd the whole season.
First off, that's completely false and one of the stupidest things you've ever said. Kidd has been averaging close to a triple double all year.

Second, Harris could only outplay Kidd the whole season if he played the whole season. Unfortunately the little bitch would miss games constantly every time he suffered a sprained pussy.

[mavsfan1000]

I wish you were still a Bulls fan.
I'm a mavs fan bwahahahaha. Now STFU

[monosylab1k]

It shouldn't be that bad. Bass is even worse than Van Horn.
I guess you were still a Bulls fan when Van Horn was on the team.

[monosylab1k]

I'm a mavs fan
No you're not

[mavsfan1000]

First off, that's completely false and one of the stupidest things you've ever said. Kidd has been averaging close to a triple double all year.

Second, Harris could only outplay Kidd the whole season if he played the whole season. Unfortunately the little bitch would miss games constantly every time he suffered a sprained pussy.
Plus/Minus is the only stat that matters. Other stats don't. Ricky Davis can load you with stats but he kills the team. Injuries happen and I bet Kidd will have some more before his career is over.

[monosylab1k]

Plus/Minus is the only stat that matters. Other stats don't.
wow.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

:lol

[mavs>spurs2]

Plus/Minus is the only stat that matters. Other stats don't. Ricky Davis can load you with stats but he kills the team. Injuries happen and I bet Kidd will have some more before his career is over.

ROFL ROFL ROFL wow I don't even know what to say to this shit

[mavs>spurs2]

Galileo formula forum

[monosylab1k]

Plus/Minus is the only stat that matters. Other stats don't.
I can definitively say that this is the single dumbest thing I've ever read on this forum.

[Findog]

If Devin Harris was the starting PG for the Knicks, he'd have a dynamite plus/minus!

:rolleyes

[monosylab1k]

And according to 82games.com, Kidd has had a better plus/minus than Harris all season. With the Nets or with the Mavericks.

I honestly don't know how that's possible, maybe I'm reading it wrong. I detest 82games.com's format. They gotta redo that whole site, it's such a pain in the ass to use.

EDIT: NM I read it wrong, Harris does have a slightly better plus/minus, but shockingly enough Kidd still gets rated as the better player on that site. Shocker when plus/minus is all that matters.

[Findog]

plus/minus is only valuable when compared to your teammates. If your team gets waxed by 25 points, and your team is -12 when you're on the floor, then you'll probably having a positive impact on the game. Likewise, if your team wins by 15, but they're -5 when you're on the floor, then you're being a detriment to your team.

[monosylab1k]

You know who has the best plus/minus on the Mavericks this year?

Here's a hint: it ain't Dirk.

[JamStone]

nba.com says it is Dirk:

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc11/joejam414/mavslenovo.jpg

[mavsfan1000]

I can definitively say that this is the single dumbest thing I've ever read on this forum.
Say what you want but until this team actually does somthing, my ideas are correct. Kidd is not enough for this team.

[Findog]

We should sign Diop in the offseason to a 5 year, $80 million deal, since he's so valuable. I mean, guys like Kidd are a dime a dozen, but there's only one DeSagana Diop.

[mavsfan1000]

We should sign Diop in the offseason to a 5 year, $80 million deal, since he's so valuable. I mean, guys like Kidd are a dime a dozen, but there's only one DeSagana Diop.
Yep and 36 year old has beens should also be signed. We should give up on point guards of the future. Heck why not get the best player out of the CBA to backup Dampier.

[Findog]

Yep and 36 year old has beens should also be signed. We should give up on point guards of the future. Heck why not get the best player out of the CBA to backup Dampier.

Kidd > Harris, this year and next.

[mavsfan1000]

Kidd > Harris, this year and next.
Nope. The stats say otherwise.

[Findog]

Nope. The stats say otherwise.

That stats say that both of them put up better numbers in Jersey than Dallas. Harris outscores Kidd, BFD. We didn't get Kidd to score.

[Findog]

Seriously, 30 out of 30 GMs would rather have Kidd than Harris.

[Findog]

Actually, I take that back, 30 out of 30 coaches would rather have Kidd than Harris. A rebuilding team like the Nets would rather have Harris than Kidd.

[mavsfan1000]

Actually, I take that back, 30 out of 30 coaches would rather have Kidd than Harris. A rebuilding team like the Nets would rather have Harris than Kidd.
Well funny thing is he we are the only ones that took the deal. No one except Dallas is stupid enough to overpay like that. We won't get the same deal if we decided to trade Kidd. Only Dallas would pay like that. They screwed themselves.

[Audio 2]

Harris better than Kidd?? hahahaha
Future hall of famer vs. a STILL unproven 2 guard/point guard wannabe ...

Thats a disrespect to Kidd more than anything. Harris may eventually amount to something at some point of his career. But hes one of those in the mold of tony parker. And if thats what we as fans are expecting out of it, then that truly is a waste of time. Hell parker finds it hard to even hold consistent minutes form game to game.

the mavs got Kidd so that we could win a championship in the next 2-3 years. Whats the point in wasting more years of prime Dirk on a young point guard under the pretense that he has a "tremendous upside" that hasn't quite manifested itself yet?

Dirk even said it himself that he had welcomed the trade and thought it was of great benefit to him and the organization. even his shooting coach lobbied for Kidd as well.

On top of that, stats don't mean everything. Basically its a way for us fans to quantify what we see out of athletes without the benefit of being able to watch team practices. Stats only tell you part of the story. Go back and watch the tapes of dallas/phx and dallas/la and see how kidd affected the game. You see how incredible this team is in transition??!! These are flashbacks to the nash days. This team now goes on those extended runs to push leads and make comebacks. And on top of that Kidd is excellent on defense, very smart handling the ball and making decisions, and makes very timely defensive plays that help this team win. All of this is proven by simply watching the dam games. Sure he can't shoot worth shit sometimes, but he doesnt need to! We he's set, i've heard it said quite often that he shoots a very solid percentage. What's more is that he can post up and score on the blocks which is something we didn't have in harris. what this team needed was a leader/playmaker; not another athletic talent.

oh btw, go back and look at dallas' shooting percentage since Kidd has been in town ...

[stretch]

So we should be blinded than and defend the team no matter how poor Cuban and Avery's decisions are. Alright gotcha.
and that right there is proof that you are a fucking bandwagonner.

[stretch]

oh btw, go back and look at dallas' shooting percentage since Kidd has been in town ...
no, that is far too logical, and actually makes a lot of sense. we all know that +/- is the only stat that matters.

[Jack Sommersset]

The question also should have option C, "to early to tell." I know giving up 2 1st rounders was stupid. The players should have been enough. Harris a 5th overall pick who is good and young, plus a couple more utility players. General rule of thumb, the best players on team are ones you draft.

[mavsfan1000]

and that right there is proof that you are a fucking bandwagonner.
Uh no. I thought we had a championship team before the trade. It was just a hangover from last year. After the trade, I knew we were screwed.

[arcticjoe]

not to stray to far to the topic but it kills me every time you say something about bass...

its essentially his first year to crack a rotation and to get a solid amount of time and yes he has problems on the defensive end of the game and hes undersized playing the 5 position

but his mid range jumper is absolutely solid and his body is extremely well built hes got a lot of upside he just needs more time to become a better defender

[monosylab1k]

nba.com says it is Dirk:

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc11/joejam414/mavslenovo.jpg
you sorted the wrong column, smart guy. you need the per minute stat there, Holmes.

gross +/- doesn't even make sense. It's an even more stupid stat than the per minute +/- already is.

[monosylab1k]

the correct answer is Jamaal Magloire, people.

[monosylab1k]

I thought we had a championship team before the trade.
You were wrong.

[monosylab1k]

my ideas are correct.
No, they're not.

[JamStone]

you sorted the wrong column, smart guy. you need the per minute stat there, Holmes.

gross +/- doesn't even make sense. It's an even more stupid stat than the per minute +/- already is.

Where did you say "per minute +/-?"


You know who has the best plus/minus on the Mavericks this year?

Here's a hint: it ain't Dirk.

When people talk about +/-, it's generally gross +/-. Per minute stats when there is a huge discrepancy in minutes played are worthless. A player could have played 10 garbage minutes and the team outscored the other team by 10 points in a blowout and that player would have a 1.0 per minute +/-. Magloire has played less than 24 minutes in his Mavs career.

[monosylab1k]

Where did you say "per minute +/-?"
That's what 82games.com uses. per 48 to be exact.


When people talk about +/-, it's generally gross +/-. Per minute stats when there is a huge discrepancy in minutes played are worthless.
And gross numbers don't do that? Harris has logged in almost 300 more minutes than Kidd on a winning team, of course his gross +/- would be significantly higher.

My whole point was to show how flawed the entire stat is anyways.

[remingtonbo2001]

..I should have made this a public poll.

I voted.

[mavsfan1000]

And gross numbers don't do that? Harris has logged in almost 300 more minutes than Kidd on a winning team, of course his gross +/- would be significantly higher.

Uh no that was not it. The +/- had very little effect on those things. Logging in more minutes doesn't help your +/-. Maybe you are talking about PER which I ignore. The pure stat of +/- favors Harris in both directions. When Harris was with Dallas and Kidd New Jersey and Kid in Dallas and Harris in New Jersey. This is not even counting the dropoff at backup center. The trade is a fail.

[LakerMagic]

:lol @ Mav fans who still have "hope". Only a fools hope if you ask me.

[DaDakota]

Kidd's age is a HUGE factor....thus the reason I believe it was a terrible trade.

DD

[Findog]

Uh no. I thought we had a championship team before the trade..

Why would you think that? How many banners are hanging from the rafters? How many LOBs are in our trophy case?

[mavsfan1000]

Why would you think that? How many banners are hanging from the rafters? How many LOBs are in our trophy case?
Doesn't matter. I thought if we avoided the Warriors last year, we had a chance to win it. The Warriors were the one team we couldn't matchup with. We were starting to dominate until Harris went down with an ankle sprain. Terry as full time point guard was trouble for us.

[Findog]

Doesn't matter. I thought if we avoided the Warriors last year, we had a chance to win it.

I hate to break it to you, but if we couldn't beat the Warriors with Damp suffering a torn rotator cuff and Dirk hobbling around on bone spurs, we sure as hell weren't going to beat the Spurs.

[mavsfan1000]

I hate to break it to you, but if we couldn't beat the Warriors with Damp suffering a torn rotator cuff and Dirk hobbling around on bone spurs, we sure as hell weren't going to beat the Spurs.
2 totally different matchups. You can't compare one matchup to another. Dirk is a matchup nightmare for the Spurs while the Warriors were a matchup nightmare for Dirk and the Mavs. The team was so athletic and Dallas had no low post player to punish them spelled a first round upset. The Spurs are definitely a much more comfortable matchup for the Mavs. At least they were before the trade. Don't know about now.

[Findog]

2 totally different matchups. You can't compare one matchup to another. Dirk is a matchup nightmare for the Spurs while the Warriors were a matchup nightmare for Dirk and the Mavs. The team was so athletic and Dallas had no low post player to punish them spelled a first round upset. The Spurs are definitely a much more comfortable matchup for the Mavs. At least they were before the trade. Don't know about now.

Yeah, because we swept San Antonio in 2006 and every game was by about 25 points. Dirk and Damp were not close to 100%. The Spurs would've beaten us.

[mavsfan1000]

Yeah, because we swept San Antonio in 2006 and every game was by about 25 points. Dirk and Damp were not close to 100%. The Spurs would've beaten us.
Dirk was fine except he has a mental block against the Warriors and their style gets him tired. Mainly Stephen Jackson is what killed us and Avery deciding to start Devean George at Center. :rolleyes

[Findog]

Dirk was fine except he has a mental block against the Warriors and their style gets him tired.

Yeah, and those pesky bone spurs. Which is why this year he's continued to suck against them this year.

:rolleyes



Mainly Stephen Jackson is what killed us and Avery deciding to start Devean George at Center.

Considering Dampier had a torn rotator cuff and wasn't effective, it wouldn't have done much good to play him heavy minutes.

:rolleyes

[mavsfan1000]

.

Yeah, and those pesky bone spurs. Which is why this year he's continued to suck against them this year.

:rolleyes



Considering Dampier had a torn rotator cuff and wasn't effective, it wouldn't have done much good to play him heavy minutes.

:rolleyes
Even so Diop should've been the second option. Yeah I guess we were too unhealthy last year. This year though we are healthy and should've sticked to Harris and Diop.

[Findog]

Even so Diop should've been the second option. Yeah I guess we were too unhealthy last year. This year though we are healthy and should've sticked to Harris and Diop.

Diop did play more minutes after G1.

[mavsfan1000]

Diop did play more minutes after G1.
G1 cost us the series. We were scarred after losing on our homecourt. We needed to hold serve against a great home team like Golden State.

[DaDakota]

Mavsfan1000,

You are 100% correct the Mavs were already a contender with Harris.....why take the massive risk?

Cuban's risky nature is costing this team, big time.

DD

[Findog]

Mavsfan1000,

You are 100% correct the Mavs were already a contender with Harris.....why take the massive risk?

Cuban's risky nature is costing this team, big time.

DD

He didn't say we were a contender with Harris, he said we were a championship team, which I must've missed. Harris is very good, but he was also injury-prone and inconsistent. If he could play 70+ a year and guard Paul, Deron and the other elite guards according to his reputation, it might've been worth blinking first.

You also fail to take into account that this team hinges on Dirk's performance, and he's pretty much playing the best basketball of his career right now with Kidd, even on one leg, and this stretch of basketball exceeds the 06 playoffs and the 07 regular season. He's not just putting up numbers, he's been tough.

[DaDakota]

But Fin, Dirk can be nuetrilized by quicker athletic players......

I do understand why you like the trade, I just disagree with it.

DD

[Findog]

But Fin, Dirk can be nuetrilized by quicker athletic players.....

Not on a consistent basis he can't. The "Dirk defense" has been around for a while. Not every team can implement it. You should know, because JVG first came up with it during that 05 playoff series. You guard him with a lanky three, you send a double team at his blind spots, or you don't, keep him guessing. If he puts the ball on the floor, send a second smaller defender to swipe at his dribble. Make him give the ball up and force his teammates to knock down shots and beat you. They did that against Houston and eventually pulled out the series, but failed to make the Warriors pay in 07. He broke out over the final two games of the Miami series.


I do understand why you like the trade, I just disagree with it.

DD

In a trade like this, you have to give up something to get something. We will miss Devin's ability to create a one-man fastbreak at times, or to draw a charge. We will miss Diop's shotblocking. And as for Kidd, we will have to deal with his terrible midrange shooting and the fact that he probably only has about 2 good years left after this one.

On the flipside, we won't miss Devin's iffy outside shooting himself. We won't miss the way he telegraphs his passes and can't break down a defense the way Kidd can. We won't miss his penchant for getting injured and inability to stay on the court for a full season. We won't miss Diop's completely nonexistent offensive game and inability to punish smallball. We WILL welcome Kidd's leadership, poise, ability to create easier baskets for his teammates, better defense against big, physical guards like Manu and Baron Davis, and we also got a nice young swingman in Antoine Wright. He looks like he can be a valuable member of a rotation in this league. Kidd's contract is up after next season, and he will most likely sign an extension at a much more reasonable figure.

It was a tradeoff. We gave up something for sure, but we got something back. You seem to grasp the former but not the latter.

[DubMcDub]

The Kidd trade obviously decimated the Mavs' ability to matchup with the Spurs. After all, of the Mavs two games in SA this year, they lost a game before the trade to SA by 2 points, and a game after the trade by 3 points.

God, losing Harris and Diop has really just destroyed the Mavs ability to even hang in the same gym as the Spurs. :rolleyes

[Indazone]

hmm DD, your fans are making a statistical move here. Up to 40 percent now in favor of Kidd was a terrible trade. Will the poll keep inching upwards?

[DaDakota]

It was a tradeoff. We gave up something for sure, but we got something back. You seem to grasp the former but not the latter.


LOL - typical.....failing to acknowledge that someone might understand the point, but not agree with it.

As I said, I understand your point, but I think the Mavs gave up too much....which is the former and the latter.

:D

DD

[mrodgers]

i think that it is a bad idea because he is all the team has and if they trade him they will lose all there games[B]

[stretch]

Uh no. I thought we had a championship team before the trade. It was just a hangover from last year. After the trade, I knew we were screwed.
BTW - Bass had the highest +/- rating last night. since that is all that matters...

Bass > Dirk

[monosylab1k]

Dirk was fine except he has a mental block against the Warriors and their style gets him tired.
WHAT

THE

FUCK






Dirk is one of the most well-conditioned players in the game. The guy works harder than anybody to keep his wind up. He spent years running the same system he had to play against that series. Dirk does not "get tired" from playing fucking anything. The fact that you'd say that shows just how little you know about Dirk and this team.

[monosylab1k]

Uh no that was not it. The +/- had very little effect on those things. Logging in more minutes doesn't help your +/-.
It can help or hurt depending on what kind of team you're playing on. Do you have any clue what the fuck you're talking about.

And if you're talking about an adjusted per 48 +/-, Jamaal Magloire has the best +/- on the Mavericks. Hooray.

[stretch]

Dirk was fine except he has a mental block against the Warriors and their style gets him tired.
:wtf

[monosylab1k]

Dirk can be nuetrilized by quicker athletic players......
Yeah list all the quicker athletic players who have consistently neutralized Dirk. Haslem did it for 2 games, and the Warriors had to run a constant double team on him.

So name your list of players who always neutralize Dirk.

[DaDakota]

Yeah list all the quicker athletic players who have consistently neutralized Dirk. Haslem did it for 2 games, and the Warriors had to run a constant double team on him.

So name your list of players who always neutralize Dirk.

Tmac did it when Houston played them in the playoffs......you just have to put a tall athletic player on him, and his lack of post game to counter it makes him manageable.

DD

[stretch]

Tmac did it when Houston played them in the playoffs......you just have to put a tall athletic player on him, and his lack of post game to counter it makes him manageable.

DD
3 years ago forum.

[monosylab1k]

Tmac did it when Houston played them in the playoffs......
Evidently not well enough. And how many times since then has TMac shut down Dirk?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

[monosylab1k]

and manageable does not equal "neutralized".

[DaDakota]

No, not neutrilized, but managed....where his impact is far less than normal.

Forcing other players to beat you....

DD

[Shank]

I don't know who knows less about the team - DD or Mavsfan1000.

[mavsfan1000]

BTW - Bass had the highest +/- rating last night. since that is all that matters...

Bass > Dirk
I go by the whole season +/-. 1 game is not enough information to decide who is the better player. You need enough data and Harris through 77 games has been the better player than Kidd in +/-. Dirk is not used to guarding athletic SF's so that is what took so much out of him. Stephen Jackson is a matchup nightmare for Dirk.

[mavsfan1000]

I don't know who knows less about the team - DD or Mavsfan1000.
You're in denial if you think we got any better or even stayed the same with this trade.

[clambake]

You're in denial if you think we got any better or even stayed the same with this trade.
they have better movement in the halfcourt with kidd. i'm also impressed with kidd on D.

[DaDakota]

I love talking Basketball with people who resort to cursing to cover up their lack of knowledge.

"What, you disagree with my opinion....&%*^ you !!"

:D

DD

[Shank]

You're in denial if you think we got any better or even stayed the same with this trade.

If a Mavs team with Harris/Diop could play the current Mavs with Kidd, the current team would destroy them. The "new" Dirk is better, the "new" Damp is better, the "new" Josh and Jet are getting better, better option at backup PG with Lue, better/smarter defensively, better fast-break game, smarter and more mentally tough team overall.

[mavsfan1000]

they have better movement in the halfcourt with kidd. i'm also impressed with kidd on D.
They have one less slasher and shotblocker. Like said before, I took everything in account and Harris has the slight edge to Kidd through 77 games.

[mavsfan1000]

If a Mavs team with Harris/Diop could play the current Mavs with Kidd, the current team would destroy them. The "new" Dirk is better, the "new" Damp is better, the "new" Josh and Jet are getting better, better option at backup PG with Lue, better/smarter defensively, better fast-break game, smarter and more mentally tough team overall.
Yes Lue is a good backup option. He would've made Dallas even more tough to beat with Harris and Diop. We had it all and could start Terry at 2 guard full time and be a matchup nightmare for other teams. Starting Terry at 2 now is not a matchup nightmare as 2 guards can guard Kidd with ease.

[stretch]

They have one less slasher and shotblocker.
actually they broke out even.

Howard is starting to slash again instead of shooting jumpers as he had been all season, and Damp is blocking shots much better after the departure of Diop, and both of them are better basketball players than Harris and Diop. so in essence, they broke even in 2 spots, with more versatile players in those positions, and now got an elite ball distributor.

[mavsfan1000]

actually they broke out even.

Howard is starting to slash again instead of shooting jumpers as he had been all season, and Damp is blocking shots much better after the departure of Diop, and both of them are better basketball players than Harris and Diop. so in essence, they broke even in 2 spots, with more versatile players in those positions, and now got an elite ball distributor.
Dampier is not the problem or a slight problem. He doesn't play a lot of minutes so whatever is backing him up is where Dallas gets hurt. Cuban should know by now not to trade away defensive centers but I guess he never learns.

[Shank]

Yes Lue is a good backup option. He would've made Dallas even more tough to beat with Harris and Diop. We had it all and could start Terry at 2 guard full time and be a matchup nightmare for other teams. Starting Terry at 2 now is not a matchup nightmare as 2 guards can guard Kidd with ease.

Why would Terry have started full-time at the 2 with Harris at PG? If that was even a viable option for Avery, then why did Terry start the season coming off the bench? Certainly he must have known the sheer basketball weaponry he possessed. I don't think many teams fear the starting 1-2 combination of Harris/Terry.

You're going about this all wrong and your refusal to accept the new team has clouded your judgment. You still didn't answer what I wrote before - would this new version of the Mavs beat the old one if they were able to match up? The answer is an easy 'yes'.

[Shank]

Dampier is not the problem or a slight problem. He doesn't play a lot of minutes so whatever is backing him up is where Dallas gets hurt. Cuban should know by now not to trade away defensive centers but I guess he never learns.

The answer to Damp's backup is Avery going with the small lineup in his absence. They've had nice results so far.

[mavsfan1000]

Why would Terry have started full-time at the 2 with Harris at PG? If that was even a viable option for Avery, then why did Terry start the season coming off the bench? Certainly he must have known the sheer basketball weaponry he possessed. I don't think many teams fear the starting 1-2 combination of Harris/Terry.

You're going about this all wrong and your refusal to accept the new team has clouded your judgment. You still didn't answer what I wrote before - would this new version of the Mavs beat the old one if they were able to match up? The answer is an easy 'yes'.
The mavs of old won 67 games and were 29-12 this year. The reason the mavs didn't go small is because they didn't have a good backup at the time because of lack of depth. Barea was a liability. Now they have Lue so starting Harris and Terry was definitely a good option. Yes teams would fear that combo. That combo is what got us over the hump against the spurs.

[Shank]

The mavs of old won 67 games and were 29-12 this year. The reason the mavs didn't go small is because they didn't have a good backup at the time because of lack of depth. Barea was a liability. Now they have Lue so starting Harris and Terry was definitely a good option. Yes teams would fear that combo. That combo is what got us over the hump against the spurs.

Again, you neglected to answer my question.

Terry is also not an option to start at the 2. If I had my way I'd groom Wright for that spot, but Stackhouse is the best option when he returns. When the playoffs roll around, you don't want Terry starting in that position.

As far as "getting over the hump against the Spurs" - yes, it was a great series, but you need to let it go. That was then. Who's to say it automatically works again against a Spurs team that would know it's coming? It damn near didn't work, come the end of Game 7.

[mavsfan1000]

The answer to Damp's backup is Avery going with the small lineup in his absence. They've had nice results so far.
No they haven't. It is a layup fest once they go small. No one to guard the rim. It will definitely be exposed in the playoffs.

[mavsfan1000]

Again, you neglected to answer my question.

Terry is also not an option to start at the 2. If I had my way I'd groom Wright for that spot, but Stackhouse is the best option when he returns. When the playoffs roll around, you don't want Terry starting in that position.

As far as "getting over the hump against the Spurs" - yes, it was a great series, but you need to let it go. That was then. Who's to say it automatically works again against a Spurs team that would know it's coming? It damn near didn't work, come the end of Game 7.
Lol at you thinking Stackhouse is the best option. The reason Dallas is winning more now is because Terry got the starting spot. Stackhouse can't guard anyone and he is a poor shooter on most nights. Harris is a much better player now also. Harris has established himself as a threat from outside. The spurs are better able to handle the strengths of Kidd's game.

[mavsfan1000]

Again, you neglected to answer my question.

Terry is also not an option to start at the 2. If I had my way I'd groom Wright for that spot, but Stackhouse is the best option when he returns. When the playoffs roll around, you don't want Terry starting in that position.

As far as "getting over the hump against the Spurs" - yes, it was a great series, but you need to let it go. That was then. Who's to say it automatically works again against a Spurs team that would know it's coming? It damn near didn't work, come the end of Game 7.
Doesn't matter how well we matchup against our old team. It is about how we matchup to the elite teams in the West. Negative on the Spurs, negative against the Hornets, and negative against the Lakers.

[Shank]

Lol at you thinking Stackhouse is the best option. The reason Dallas is winning more now is because Terry got the starting spot. Stackhouse can't guard anyone and he is a poor shooter on most nights. Harris is a much better player now also. Harris has established himself as a threat from outside. The spurs are better able to handle the strengths of Kidd's game.

I'm through with you.

You've refused to answer my simple question a number of times and now you're spouting off some BS about how Terry is a better option at 2 guard than Stackhouse and that they're winning based on Terry getting back into the top 5. Newsflash - when Stackhouse returns, the starting 2 is his again and Terry goes back to bench. I suppose now you think you can manage this team better than Avery and will scoff when you see this happen? That was some work Terry did on Monta Ellis last week. Completely shut him down. Terry is more of a defensive liability than Stackhouse. He may be a better shooter, but he's streaky and can go ice-cold just as quickly as he can heat up. I'll take Stackhouse's veteran play, his toughness and willingness to drive over anything Terry can provide starting at the 2.

So, I'll ask it once again - would this current build of the Mavericks beat the Harris/Diop lineup?

[Shank]

Doesn't matter how well we matchup against our old team. It is about how we matchup to the elite teams in the West. Negative on the Spurs, negative against the Hornets, and negative against the Lakers.

No, it does matter about how they'd match up against themselves. Your argument is that the old version of the team is better than the new one. I'm trying to get you to comprehend that the team is better now than it was before, regardless of any specific WC matchup. This team, as it is now, is one of the most talented the Mavs have ever had - even better than what was trotted out in the 2006 Finals. Now, what they do with that potential is up to them - but I'm saying, as a group, they're fairly solid. If they go out there and win the whole thing, then great - good for them. It would prove the made the most out of what they had and Avery used all of his players in the roles necessary. If they go out and shit the bed and completely collapse in the first round again - then it's been a waste of a season, but it doesn't mean you blow the team up. It means the guys didn't play up to their potential and the coaching staff didn't do their part to play the right combinations at the right times.

The bodies are there, the skills and mentality are there. It's up to this current build of the Mavericks to go out there and make something happen. If they don't, then there's always next year. It's as it's always been.

[monosylab1k]

Stephen Jackson is a matchup nightmare for Dirk.
Yeah he was, uh, really a nightmare a week ago.

[monosylab1k]

They have one less slasher and shotblocker. Like said before, I took everything in account and Harris has the slight edge to Kidd through 77 games.
Devin Harris hasn't played 77 games.

[monosylab1k]

It is a layup fest once they go small. No one to guard the rim.
Prove it.

[Findog]

Devin Harris hasn't played 77 games.

Devin's a nice player, he does some good things, and I won't completely throw him under the bus to puff up Kidd. Having said that, none of these Devin knobgobblers want to acknowledge that you can't depend on him to play a full season. He's ALWAYS been injury-prone. You can't say the same for Kidd.

[Findog]

Prove it.

Avery was pretty dumb to trap Kobe at the end of the Lakers game with Kidd and Damp, and Gasol/Odom had a field day attacking Dirk on one leg. Other than that, I'll go with my own eyes and the efficiency stats that demonstrate our defense has gotten better with Kidd. Yes, he'll get clowned by CP3 and Deron Williams, but so does everybody, including Devin.

[stretch]

No they haven't. It is a layup fest once they go small. No one to guard the rim. It will definitely be exposed in the playoffs.
Playing small won them a playoff series against the Spurs.

[monosylab1k]

Gasol/Odom had a field day attacking Dirk on one leg. Other than that
Doubly stupid was putting Terry/Howard on those two and leaving Dirk as a help defender.

And I'll take my chances with Kidd one-on-one against Kobe. He can keep him in front of him well enough to force Kobe into a jumper. If you're going to double, use Howard or Terry, not Dampier. Make Kobe pass out to Vujacic or Farmar or Walton or whoever, not Gasol or Odom with a 6-inch plus size advantage.

This team has played damn good defense, and if not for a long series of shitbrain coaching decisions, they would have 3 or 4 more wins against playoff teams since the Kidd trade.

[mavsfan1000]

Playing small won them a playoff series against the Spurs.
They didn't play small for the most part. Most of the time Diop or Dampier were in the game. The spurs were the ones that went small with Bowen at PF. No shotblocker out there and no interior defense. Just look at the 03-04 Mavs to prove how important a defensive center is to their game.

[Harry Callahan]

Worse from a Spurs fan Point of view. Less active on perimeter defense and shot blocking. This Mavs team will be nowhere near as effective as the 05-06 team.

[DaDakota]

Worse from a Spurs fan Point of view. Less active on perimeter defense and shot blocking. This Mavs team will be nowhere near as effective as the 05-06 team.

Exactly........sure Dirk will or should get more shots, but that was NEVER their problem to begin with.....

Now they have a terrific passing PG who is laterally slow and can't shoot.

Not gonna work.

DD

[stretch]

They didn't play small for the most part. Most of the time Diop or Dampier were in the game. The spurs were the ones that went small with Bowen at PF. No shotblocker out there and no interior defense. Just look at the 03-04 Mavs to prove how important a defensive center is to their game.
And you know who was out there for the majority of that series playing C for Dallas?

and it wasn't Diop...

[mavsfan1000]

And you know who was out there for the majority of that series playing C for Dallas?

and it wasn't Diop...
You know who was key for us in overtime in game 7? It wasn't Dampier.

[Findog]

You know who was key for us in overtime in game 7? It wasn't Dampier.

Right, because Damp defended Duncan the whole game and wore him down. Diop came in on fresh legs and got to guard him when he was exhausted. Nice performance from Diop, but he is NOT Bill Russell. There is a reason Avery chose to play Dampier 30+ and use Diop as an emergency reserve.

You don't have to like the trade, but you might get taken more seriously if you don't slob Gana's knob.

[monosylab1k]

You know who was key for us in overtime in game 7? It wasn't Dampier.
That's because he fouled out you fucking dumbass.

[stretch]

You know who was key for us in overtime in game 7? It wasn't Dampier.
You know who isn't a part of the Mavs anymore and is doing jack shit for a terrible eastern conference team while the guy he previously backed up is still the starting center for a championship contending team and has put up better numbers his entire career?
It's not Dampier.

[monosylab1k]

We've got guys in the league as 3PT specialists, or rebounding specialists, Horry as a "clutch" specialist.......but I think DeSagana Diop is the first ever "OT of a Game 7" specialist. Because that's the only time he's ever any good.

[Findog]

If we play the Spurs and it goes to overtime in Game 7, we're basically fucked

[Findog]

Remember when Walt Williams hit that clutch three for us in double overtime of that playoff game against the Kings 5 years ago? We should've never gotten rid of him. How can you get rid of a guy who once made a good play for your team?

[monosylab1k]

Wanna rock the shit in OT of a Game 7? This is your man!

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/players/06/12/questions0619/t1_diop2.jpg

Need a consistent backup center for 82 games? look elsewhere.

[monosylab1k]

Remember when Walt Williams hit that clutch three for us in double overtime of that playoff game against the Kings 5 years ago? We should've never gotten rid of him. How can you get rid of a guy who once made a good play for your team?
Remember when Antoine Walker hit that gamewinner? Stupid idea to let him go. Then like idiots we trade him for Jason Terry. Everyone knows you're never supposed to get smaller when you make a trade.

[Findog]

Remember when Antoine Walker hit that gamewinner? Stupid idea to let him go. Then like idiots we trade him for Jason Terry. Everyone knows you're never supposed to get smaller when you make a trade.

Remember when Calvin Booth hit that layup against Utah? Why the fuck did we not give him a max contract?

[mavsfan1000]

I wonder if Findog and monosylab1k are the same person. They say the same dumb shit and are completely ignorant to stats.

[Findog]

I wonder if Findog and monosylab1k are the same person. They say the same dumb shit and are completely ignorant to stats.

Yep, you got us, we're the same 43-year old KFC aficionado/lonely masturbator living in our mom's basement.

And we're completely oblivious to the fact that since the Kidd trade we're giving up fewer points, holding opponents to a lower FG%, allowing fewer offensive rebounds and fouling less.

[monosylab1k]

I wonder if Findog and monosylab1k are the same person. They say the same dumb shit and are completely ignorant to stats.
Fucking weak. You're the one ignoring stats and made it worse by making the dumbest claim in internet history, that +/- is the only stat that matters.

You're a disgrace to all bandwagon jumpers.

[DaDakota]

I wonder if Findog and monosylab1k are the same person. They say the same dumb shit and are completely ignorant to stats.


Don't get bothered by tweedle dee and tweedle dum........they just like to curse and try to shout down people with different opinions.

It doesn't change the truth.....

I will say that Findog is a bit like the character in Awakenings though, he sometimes has some coherent thoughts, but Mono is purely a waste of time.

He just like to act like an internet tough guy, and then calls names when he runs into words that contain more than 2 syllables and he can't understand them.

When Mono speaks it is like a Mouth shart.



DD

[DaDakota]

Make that 41-6.

I am sorry, did you say something?

DD

[Findog]

I will say that Findog is a bit like the character in Awakenings though


DD

Oh, that is so kind of you. I'm only partially retarded.

You stay classy, da_rockets_fan.

[stretch]

why can't we have some good trolls for a change? guys that are actually funny. kinda like the old days of Louis and Jonathan Chow.

[DaDakota]

why can't we have some good trolls for a change? guys that are actually funny. kinda like the old days of Louis and Jonathan Chow.


Hey it is Captain 98% of the board agrees with me.....how are you doing?

I guess the numbers you pulled from your anus were really just chunks of last night's burrito....

DD

[Findog]

why can't we have some good trolls for a change? guys that are actually funny. kinda like the old days of Louis and Jonathan Chow.

I don't know about trolls, but if we're going to be calling out fellow Mavs fans, not one person has commented on my Bob Ortegel anal sex sig. "He can do that!"

[DaDakota]

Oh, that is so kind of you. I'm only partially retarded.

You stay classy, da_rockets_fan.


LOL - Have a sense of humor.

The guy was not retarded, he was comatose because of an influenza outbreak and was briefly awakened with L-Dopa....

Actually Findog, when you are not cursing or slipping into Mono like posts, I quite enjoy the discussions we have.

DD

[Findog]

LOL - Have a sense of humor.

The guy was not retarded, he was comatose because of an influenza outbreak and was breafly awakened with L-Dopa....

Ah. I've never actually seen the movie all the way through, just parts of it.

[stretch]

Hey it is Captain 98% of the board agrees with me.....how are you doing?

I guess the numbers you pulled from your anus were really just chunks of last night's burrito....

DD
Hi DD.

[mavsfan1000]

Fucking weak. You're the one ignoring stats and made it worse by making the dumbest claim in internet history, that +/- is the only stat that matters.

You're a disgrace to all bandwagon jumpers.
Yes it is the best stat in basketball to tell if a player is having a positive effect on the game. They play the same position so it is very comparable. Btw I looked up the stats of Harris's team with a full healthy team in January and Kidd's team with a full healthy team up to now. The team with Harris and Diop scored 101.8 per game and gave up 93.4. The team with Kidd scored 103 points and gave up 94.8 points. The team with Kidd feasted on the bad teams in 5 straight games while they couldn't beat the best teams. The teams that actually care about transition defense beat Dallas.

[Findog]

Hey it is Captain 98% of the board agrees with me.....how are you doing?

I guess the numbers you pulled from your anus were really just chunks of last night's burrito....

DD

The only guy I know pulling anything out of anyone's rectum is devilish Ladies' Man Bob Ortegel. I've seen that man clean up in the Jack Daniels Old No. 7 Club like a kid tearing through presents on Christmas morning.

[DaDakota]

Mmmmmmm...Jack Daniels.......one of my favorite founding fathers, he came over on the Johnny Walker Red, right?

DD

[Audio 2]

The mavs of old won 67 games and were 29-12 this year. The reason the mavs didn't go small is because they didn't have a good backup at the time because of lack of depth. Barea was a liability. Now they have Lue so starting Harris and Terry was definitely a good option. Yes teams would fear that combo. That combo is what got us over the hump against the spurs.
huh? isn't that the same combo we had the whole year??? And how well did THAT do ... Avery had issues playing that lineup because youre putting a small devin harris out there along with the defensively crippled jason terry. Now they have a much bigger and stronger jason kidd and jason terry. You didnt lose much defense at all / actually you gained a very smart defender that can guard 3 maybe 4 positions and you still have terry. On top of that you add a guy that can get terry much easier looks than he had been getting. We gain an exponential boost in fast break ability and one of the best if not the best floor leader in basketball. [and that has been said by many media outlets and columnists] Say what you want about Kidd, but he's a proven commodity. Don't get sucked in by youth and talent because the spurs have been wining championship after championship with the same old [smart] veteran guys

[DaDakota]

Don't get sucked in by youth and talent because the spurs have been wining championship after championship with the same old [smart] veteran guys
But the Spurs can all shoot.....

Jason Kidd has had an amazing career, but his inability to actually SHOOT well is a massive stain on his career.

And with the rules being the way they are now (in favor of penetrating players) trading a good penetrating player who can shoot for a player who doesn't or can't penetrate and can't shoot is a bad deal.

Sure you will get some easy trasnition baskets, and some good looks for Dirk and Josh in early offense sets, but when the games slow down in the playoffs, Kidd will be even more exposed.

Bad trade.

DD

[monosylab1k]

I am sorry, did you say something?
You did.

Don't get caught up in the numbers
Hypocrite.

[mavsfan1000]

But the Spurs can all shoot.....

Jason Kidd has had an amazing career, but his inability to actually SHOOT well is a massive stain on his career.

And with the rules being the way they are now (in favor of penetrating players) trading a good penetrating player who can shoot for a player who doesn't or can't penetrate and can't shoot is a bad deal.

Sure you will get some easy trasnition baskets, and some good looks for Dirk and Josh in early offense sets, but when the games slow down in the playoffs, Kidd will be even more exposed.

Bad trade.

DD
I gotta agree with DaDakota. He knows his stuff. Kidd can't shoot and can't penetrate. Teams will force Kidd to be a scorer and put more pressure on the other 4 players. Kidd is a liability in the halfcourt. He doesn't create a lot like Nash does when in a halfcourt setting because of these 2 things (shooting and slashing).

[monosylab1k]

"Denial is not just a river in Africa".......wow that doesn't work one bit in the written format. Not that a cliche that tired works at all. Fail.

[mavsfan1000]

huh? isn't that the same combo we had the whole year??? And how well did THAT do ... Avery had issues playing that lineup because youre putting a small devin harris out there along with the defensively crippled jason terry. Now they have a much bigger and stronger jason kidd and jason terry. You didnt lose much defense at all / actually you gained a very smart defender that can guard 3 maybe 4 positions and you still have terry. On top of that you add a guy that can get terry much easier looks than he had been getting. We gain an exponential boost in fast break ability and one of the best if not the best floor leader in basketball. [and that has been said by many media outlets and columnists] Say what you want about Kidd, but he's a proven commodity. Don't get sucked in by youth and talent because the spurs have been wining championship after championship with the same old [smart] veteran guys
The lineup works but we had no one off the bench that could score at the time. Lue was not on this team. We got 67 wins with Harris and Terry starting together for a lot of the year. Don't say it can't work. As long as we got a shotblocking center to cover up for one defensive liability we could get away with it except for a few teams.

[monosylab1k]

I gotta agree with DaDakota. He knows his stuff. Kidd can't shoot and can't penetrate. Teams will force Kidd to be a scorer and put more pressure on the other 4 players. Kidd is a liability in the halfcourt. He doesn't create a lot like Nash does when in a halfcourt setting because of these 2 things (shooting and slashing).
So which Bulls team was your favorite back when you were a Bulls fan?

[Shank]

I gotta agree with DaDakota. He knows his stuff. Kidd can't shoot and can't penetrate. Teams will force Kidd to be a scorer and put more pressure on the other 4 players. Kidd is a liability in the halfcourt. He doesn't create a lot like Nash does when in a halfcourt setting because of these 2 things (shooting and slashing).

Take that Mavs logo out of your avatar and remove the team's name from your moniker, you fucking loser.

[monosylab1k]

Lue was not on this team.
You keep talking about Lue like he's done something in Dallas worth talking about. Why don't you take a look at what Lue's done in your beloved +/- statistic.

[mavsfan1000]

Take that Mavs logo out of your avatar and remove the team's name from your moniker, you fucking loser.
I prefer intelligent speaking rather than my team is better than your team smack talk. Sorry if I'm not homer enough for you.

[mavsfan1000]

You keep talking about Lue like he's done something in Dallas worth talking about. Why don't you take a look at what Lue's done in your beloved statistic.
He has not gotten enough minutes thanks to Avery and his lovefest for Stackhouse. Lue needs more minutes and he'll produce. He had a positive +/- in Atlanta so I know he can produce here if given enough minutes.

[DaDakota.]

I changed my mind, the Kidd trade was great!

DD

[Shank]

I prefer intelligent speaking rather than my team is better than your team smack talk. Sorry if I'm not homer enough for you.

You call that drivel you type "intelligent"? It's not about being a homer. It's about being realistic and observant enough to realize what's really going on instead of being a myopic fool and not budging from a standpoint that's clearly flawed.

[monosylab1k]

I prefer intelligent speaking

:lmao


rather than my team is better than your team smack talk. Sorry if I'm not homer enough for you.
It's not about being a homer, it's about knowing what you're talking about. Nobody among the Mavs fans has been more critical of this team than me. But I watch the team enough to know that DeSagana fucking Diop isn't a key piece of the puzzle.

If you gave us any inkling that you actually watch the team then maybe your fan credentials would be believable, Bulls fan.

[Findog]

You call that drivel you type "intelligent"? It's not about being a homer. It's about being realistic and observant enough to realize what's really going on instead of being a myopic fool and not budging from a standpoint that's clearly flawed.

Remember when Shawn Bradley had a double-double in that one game? We should've never gotten rid of him, just like we should've never gotten rid of Diop.

[Harry Callahan]

The Spurs were able to control a much better Jason Kidd in the 03 Finals. Tony Parker was 20 years old and in his second year and while he was inconsistent in that series, he was a good enough starting point guard to win the first of his three rings. I think Tony knows a lot more about basketball than the posters here since he earns a living doing it.

TP liked the Kidd trade. For the Spurs. Devin Harris was a much more difficult matchup for him than Kidd is. Diop was a defensive presence at the rim. Still don't like the trade (if I was a Mavs fan).

The Mavs basically insured a two year window of potential success in the playoffs that ends next year. I don't see them going the distance in the forseeable future.

[mavsfan1000]

:lmao


It's not about being a homer, it's about knowing what you're talking about. Nobody among the Mavs fans has been more critical of this team than me. But I watch the team enough to know that DeSagana fucking Diop isn't a key piece of the puzzle.

If you gave us any inkling that you actually watch the team then maybe your fan credentials would be believable, Bulls fan.
I don't how many times I yelled at the screen put in a center but it happens quite a lot. I don't know how you haven't seen that as a problem. Diop is one of best shotblocking centers in the league so yes I think it is a big lost. We had no problems scoring with Diop in the game.

[monosylab1k]

I don't how many times I yelled at the screen put in a center but it happens quite a lot.
Yeah it must be tough seeing Joakim Noah struggle out there.

[mavsfan1000]

Remember when Shawn Bradley had a double-double in that one game? We should've never gotten rid of him, just like we should've never gotten rid of Diop.
Another stupid comment. Bradley couldn't defend anyone one on one and hurt our rebounding. Diop>>>Bradley.

[monosylab1k]

Another stupid comment. Bradley couldn't defend anyone one on one and hurt our rebounding. Diop>>>Bradley.
Um, Shawn Bradley was just as good a rebounder as Diop. Check the numbers. I'll give you a pass since you were a Bulls fan back when Bradley was on the team.

[Audio 2]

massive stain, not really. He's one shy of 100 career triple doubles;
basically has one foot in the HOF;
been to 2 NBA finals;
has never relied on a shot because he gets freebies for everyone else!

Why don't you go talk to Shaq about his inability to shoot free throws and ask him if its stained his career ...

Can't shoot can't penetrate?? You guys seem to have less and less of a basketball IQ ... How is he a liability in the half court? How well has he shot the 3 ball since he's been here? hahaha Can't create in teh half court like Nash?

Fool

He's been doing that way before Nash has and still can and does! but im sure you have some sort of 'stat' to back that up right? I bet it's that you can't watch the games, only read the box scores ... BTW Devin didn't seem to learn how to make a shot till this year.

Hmm let's see;
Things that have gotten better since Kidd's been here
Transition offense
Defense
opponents fg%
Josh Howard [player as a whole]
Eric Dampier [now a scorer on the blocks and better rebounder be causes he's involved in the offense]
early offense due to the increase in pushing the ball after makes and misses
the ability to set up teammates and shooters without the advent of a play
+steals
assists
spurts/runs

i could go on all day ... and each one of those categories is proven: that is if you even watch the games.

say what you want about the finals appearance, but that team was a flash in a pan ... the league grew accustomed to the mavs and actually got way better. We stayed stagnant and didn't bring in better players and this is what happened. Other than a better shot, tell me one thing that Devin has significantly improved upon over the last 3 years that would warrant the organization to spend/waste another 3 or so years trying to develop [while wasting valuable years of dirk's career]

[mavsfan1000]

Um, Shawn Bradley was just as good a rebounder as Diop. Check the numbers. I'll give you a pass since you were a Bulls fan back when Bradley was on the team.
Doesn't matter. We always played zone defense with Bradley in there which hurt our rebounding. It covered the lack of ability Bradley had in his individual defense.

[Audio 2]

The lineup works but we had no one off the bench that could score at the time. Lue was not on this team. We got 67 wins with Harris and Terry starting together for a lot of the year. Don't say it can't work. As long as we got a shot blocking center to cover up for one defensive liability we could get away with it except for a few teams.
we had the same team !!!! it got us nowhere this year man come on! And it definitely got us booted last year because we had [0] play makers and [0] true point guards.

[monosylab1k]

Doesn't matter.
Yes it does. Yet again you have no clue what the hell you're talking about, Bulls fan.

And zone defense wasn't even allowed for most of Bradley's years on the team. The years you spent rooting for the Bulls.

[mavsfan1000]

massive stain, not really. He's one shy of 100 career triple doubles;
basically has one foot in the HOF;
been to 2 NBA finals;
has never relied on a shot because he gets freebies for everyone else!

Why don't you go talk to Shaq about his inability to shoot free throws and ask him if its stained his career ...

Can't shoot can't penetrate?? You guys seem to have less and less of a basketball IQ ... How is he a liability in the half court? How well has he shot the 3 ball since he's been here? hahaha Can't create in teh half court like Nash?

Fool

He's been doing that way before Nash has and still can and does! but im sure you have some sort of 'stat' to back that up right? I bet it's that you can't watch the games, only read the box scores ... BTW Devin didn't seem to learn how to make a shot till this year.

Hmm let's see;
Things that have gotten better since Kidd's been here
Transition offense
Defense
opponents fg%
Josh Howard [player as a whole]
Eric Dampier [now a scorer on the blocks and better rebounder be causes he's involved in the offense]
early offense due to the increase in pushing the ball after makes and misses
the ability to set up teammates and shooters without the advent of a play
+steals
assists
spurts/runs

i could go on all day ... and each one of those categories is proven: that is if you even watch the games.

say what you want about the finals appearance, but that team was a flash in a pan ... the league grew accustomed to the mavs and actually got way better. We stayed stagnant and didn't bring in better players and this is what happened. Other than a better shot, tell me one thing that Devin has significantly improved upon over the last 3 years that would warrant the organization to spend/waste another 3 or so years trying to develop [while wasting valuable years of dirk's career]
Yes it's about this year. No one is doubting whether Kidd in his prime wasn't a better player. Kidd has had a way better career but this year, Harris has been the better overall player. It's sad seeing great players start to lose it. I think we got Kidd 1 year too late.

[DaDakota]

I changed my mind, the Kidd trade was great!

DD

ROFLMAO....adding a period after my moniker to make it look like me...PATHETIC....


Mono.....you still unable to hold a civil discussion? Or are your parents going to cut your interent off if you stay on it too long, hmmmm....junior????

DD

[mavsfan1000]

we had the same team !!!! it got us nowhere this year man come on! And it definitely got us booted last year because we had [0] play makers and [0] true point guards.
Nowitzki and Dampier (bone spurs and torn rotator cuff) were both injured for the playoffs according to Findog. We were 29-12 and that is with a slow start to the season due to the hangover of last year.

[DaDakota]

massive stain, not really. He's one shy of 100 career triple doubles;

He certainly WAS a great player and can periodically turn it on some time, but the trade for me was more about chemistry, the Mavs had it, and lost it with the trade.

And Kidd is not getting any younger......

Mavsfan1k,

It is a pleasure to see your well reasoned posts, but more importantly to see that you are trying to engage in intelligent dialect, and not resort to the kids and their name calling.

Don't worry, your takes are appreciated, and those kids will one day grow up.....hopefully.


DD

[monosylab1k]

Mono.....you still unable to hold a civil discussion?
Depends......are you still a salad tossing faggot?

[monosylab1k]

Nowitzki and Dampier (bone spurs and torn rotator cuff) were both injured for the playoffs according to Findog. We were 29-12 and that is with a slow start to the season due to the hangover of last year.
You must have felt good about that sweep of Miami though.

[mavsfan1000]

You must have felt good about that sweep of Miami though.
Yes and D-Whistle felt the best about it. Refs cost us that series.

[Findog]

but the trade for me was more about chemistry, the Mavs had it, and lost it with the trade.

DD

Actually, the opposite is true.

[monosylab1k]

Denial.....The Nile......Denial.....The Nile......

nope, doesn't work.

[DaDakota]

Depends......are you still a salad tossing faggot?


See, this is a prime reason why you don't give little 12 year old kids like Mono a computer.....

Keep on trucking kid, you will hit puberty one day...

DD

[monosylab1k]

Yes and D-Whistle felt the best about it. Refs cost us that series.
What are you talking about, the Bulls won that series last year.

[monosylab1k]

See, this is a prime reason why you don't give little 12 year old punks a computer.....

Keep on trucking kid, you will hit puberty one day...

DD
And one day you'll write a sig that makes sense.

[mavsfan1000]

What are you talking about, the Bulls won that series last year.
I was talking about Mavs/Heat but yeah it felt good seeing the Heat getting sweeped. :D

[DaDakota]

And one day you'll write a sig that makes sense.

Maybe one day when you get older you will be able to comprehend it. I will leave it up for you in hopes that you reach that day before your first armpit hair comes in...

[cue the cursing]

DD

[monosylab1k]

Maybe one day when you get older you will be able to comprehend it.
Maybe one day when you get a brain you'll see the problem with writing a cliche that only works in the auditory realm.

[DaDakota]

Maybe one day when you get a brain you'll see the problem with writing a cliche that only works in the auditory realm.

Or maybe that people can understand a joke if they are above your junior high intellect.

DD

[monosylab1k]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Rivers_of_Egypt

Can't find Denial anywhere on that list.

[monosylab1k]

Or maybe that people can understand a joke if they are above your junior high intellect.
:lmao :lmao :lmao he doesn't get it!

[mavsfan1000]

29-13 with Harris and Diop playing
13-11 with Kidd. If that's not enough, Harris has a plus/minus ratio of 6.3 in Dallas. Diop has a plus/minus ratio of -.1. Kidd has a plus/minus ratio of 3.5 and Bass has a plus/minus ratio of -11. So now it is pretty obvious why we are not doing as well now. Bass replacing Diop is a much worse subsitution and Harris is a slightly better starter than Kidd.


Yes it is the best stat in basketball to tell if a player is having a positive effect on the game. They play the same position so it is very comparable. Btw I looked up the stats of Harris's team with a full healthy team in January and Kidd's team with a full healthy team up to now. The team with Harris and Diop scored 101.8 per game and gave up 93.4. The team with Kidd scored 103 points and gave up 94.8 points. The team with Kidd feasted on the bad teams in 5 straight games while they couldn't beat the best teams. The teams that actually care about transition defense beat Dallas.
Just though I would bump this as it is getting loss in all the smack talking.

[DaDakota]

:lmao lmao :lmao he doesn't get it!

Hey kiddo, you forgot to take your OCD medication, remember jokes are sometimes plays on words.....

Oh, never mind little man, your mommy still loves you.........sometimes.

DD

[monosylab1k]

Just though I would bump this as it is getting loss in all the smack talking.
It was a dumb post you should have left it forgotten, Bulls fan.

[DaDakota]

Actually, the opposite is true.

Their chemistry has improved some since a couple of weeks ago, but I still don't see them winning anything in the playoffs.....

Before the trade, I think they could have won it all, not anymore.

DD

[monosylab1k]

remember jokes are sometimes plays on words.....
And sometimes plays on words don't work when they're written rather than spoken.

Maybe I shouldn't have used "audio realm" it's confusing Rocket Troll's brain.

[DaDakota]

And sometimes plays on words don't work when they're written rather than spoken.

Maybe I shouldn't have used "audio realm" it's confusing Rocket Troll's brain.

They work for most people who have a reading comprehension above that of a turnip.

Sorry they don't work for you, maybe Mr. Johnson will let you steer the short bus on occasion.

;)

DD

[Audio 2]

They didn't lose chemistry. Damps a far better contributor now. Dirk is getting better looks. Josh [along with the dirk injury] is actually playing a hell of a lot better. The support guys KNOW there support guys. And Kidd is a tremendous asset to their defense.

If anything, the chem got way better and the offense began to resemble a 'real' NBA offense. They still have a bit of the iso crap, but thats because you have Dirk and Josh whom are excellent 1 on 1 players. Time and time again its looked like this team just did not have that extra 'oomphf'. And you got that and more with Kidd! You tell me who was the better point guard on the floor this past Sunday ... As the mavs continued to score while the Suns scored 9.

It's about having a true leader on the floor and regardless of whatever you can come up with in determent to Kidd, he is and always will be a true floor leader. Devin wasn't that, and won't be that for a looong time. Talented he is? Yes. But he's no Kidd.

[mavsfan1000]

It was a dumb post you should have left it forgotten, Bulls fan.
It was dumb because it hurts your argument about us being better with Kidd. Sorry about that. I'm not a bulls fan.

[monosylab1k]

They work for most people who have a reading comprehension above that of a turnip.
They don't work for anybody who can read.

It works less because it's such an overused cliche.

[DaDakota]

It's about having a true leader on the floor and regardless of whatever you can come up with in determent to Kidd, he is and always will be a true floor leader. Devin wasn't that, and won't be that for a looong time. Talented he is? Yes. But he's no Kidd.

Ok, this I can understand, but Dirk is the leader of that team, and now you are basically telling him..."Step aside Dirk, you are no leader"

Devin Harris was not meant to be the leader, he was meant to add a dimension to the team to compliment Dirk.....something to take the pressure off of him and make the team better.

I understand where you are coming from, I just disagree with your point of view.

DD

[monosylab1k]

I'm not a bulls fan.
You're not a Mavs fan either.

[monosylab1k]

Dirk is the leader of that team, and now you are basically telling him..."Step aside Dirk, you are no leader"
I guess if he was the leader he'd be offended at the team telling him that.

But since he was basically jumping for joy over the trade, looks like he has no problem with Kidd being a leader as well.

[Allanon]

The Mavs are a much grittier team now with Jason Kidd. In the past, they would have laid down and opened up their legs if they were down. Now, they're fighting with come behind wins (Suns) and hanging tough to the final seconds (both Laker games).

The Mavs are a much tougher bunch right now than before. There offense is MUCH easier to watch now. I don't know how you Mav fans endured all those ISO's with Jason Terry holding the ball for 10 seconds every possession before passing it out. That was some terrible stuff. Mavs are actually moving the ball now.

They still can't "Close" a game yet but they're learning I think.

So in the short run (this year and next), it's a great trade, in the long run it's gonna hurt.

[mavsfan1000]

You're not a Mavs fan either.
Every time you lose a argument, you resort to comments like this. Just admit you are wrong about Dallas being better defensively with Kidd instead of Harris and Diop as my stat proves.

[DaDakota]

I guess if he was the leader he'd be offended at the team telling him that.

But since he was basically jumping for joy over the trade, looks like he has no problem with Kidd being a leader as well.

Link? Show me where he was jumping for joy, over the trade....and if that is the case, and he is that desperate to be led rather than lead, it is still a bad trade because Kidd is way way WAY past his prime.

DD

[monosylab1k]

Just admit you are wrong about Dallas being better defensively with Kidd instead of Harris and Diop as my stat proves.
It doesn't prove anything. Everyone knows the defense is better except for you. I guess it's tough to see when you're trying to catch Bulls games.

[mavsfan1000]

The Mavs are a much grittier team now with Jason Kidd. In the past, they would have laid down and opened up their legs if they were down. Now, they're fighting with come behind wins (Suns) and hanging tough to the final seconds (both Laker games).

The Mavs are a much tougher bunch right now than before. There offense is MUCH easier to watch now. I don't know how you Mav fans endured all those ISO's with Jason Terry holding the ball for 10 seconds every possession before passing it out. That was some terrible stuff. Mavs are actually moving the ball now.

They still can't "Close" a game yet but they're learning I think.

So in the short run (this year and next), it's a great trade, in the long run it's gonna hurt.
Dallas still does that iso stuff. It's Avery's fault for not being a good offensive coach.

[DaDakota]

So in the short run (this year and next), it's a great trade, in the long run it's gonna hurt.

I think this is what Cuban hopes happens, but their record since the trade says otherwise...3-11 against +.500 teams.....with their new leader....

How was Kidd leading New Jersey this year? All that leadership he is oozing and all?

DD

[mavsfan1000]

It doesn't prove anything. Everyone knows the defense is better except for you. I guess it's tough to see when you're trying to catch Bulls games.
Kidd might be slightly better defensively than Harris but it doesn't make up for us having 20 minutes of no center on the court. Our defense is much worse once Dampier comes out of the game. Maybe now you can understand why I think Dallas is better before the trade. Or maybe you'd rather kill yourself than admit you're wrong.