Kobe: not winning the MVP

[Medvedenko]

Why Kobe won't win the MVP
By Scoop Jackson
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Updated: April 7, 2008, 3:38 PM ET
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Last week, my partner in crime wrote a column about how uncomfortable she will be when Kobe Bryant receives the 2008 MVP award. Well, no disrespect to Jemele (Ms. Hill to those of us who know her), but Kobe Bryant will not win the MVP this year. And if recent history proves consistent, he might finish behind Alonzo Mourning in the voting.




[+] EnlargeJed Jacobsohn/Getty Images

Kobe Bryant is to the MVP what Ralph Nader is to the presidency.
Truth is Kobe Bryant will never win the MVP of the league. He is hated too much. Hated by those who cast votes. Hated too much by those he plays against. And the two All-Star Game MVPs he's won, well, they don't count in this scenario. Voting Kobe as the best basketball player in the world for a day is one thing, honoring him with that same title for an entire season … in the infamous words of Bobby Brown's ex-wife: "Oh, hell to the No!"


Writers won't honor Kobe like that, not even when in good consciousness they want to or would like to. As one writer said to me when the subject was brought up in conversation, very apropos for an election year, "Kobe's electability quotient is zero." In other words, he's Ralph Nader.



How is hate justified? Easy, by being consistent. Which is why this year will be no different than the past two. Because if we are honest (and this goes to Jemele's point), if we look at what Kobe Bryant has done in the past two seasons without winning the MVP, there should be no way he can win it this year. Which leads us back to the hate: A man averages 35.4 ppg, the eighth-highest average in the history of the league; he gives you 5.3 rebounds, 4.5 assists and 1.8 steals; he has 27 games of 40-plus points, has one month where he averages 43.4 ppg, scores 81 in one game and outscores an entire team in another (the 62-point game against Dallas where he sat out the fourth quarter); he is on the all-defensive first team (something not one of the other players in the MVP running is included on); and he leads a CBA-built team to the playoffs. The man has a season that no one is likely to see for another generation and he comes in fourth in the MVP voting that year.



That same man, the very next year, averages 31.6 points, 5.7 rebounds, 5.4 assists and 1.4 steals for the "fedora trick"; he has 10 games of 50-plus points, only the second person in NBA history to do so in a single season (including a four-in-a-row stretch that hadn't been seen in more than 20 years); he makes the all-defensive first team again; and this time he takes a YBA-built squad to the playoffs. In a season that many claim is more "complete" than the season before, the man this time comes in third in the MVP voting.



How bad is it for Kobe? In a 2004-05 season in which Kobe averaged 27.6 points, 5.9 rebounds and 6.0 assists, P.J. Brown -- yes, you read right -- received more MVP votes than he did, and Brown received only one vote. How many games did the Hornets win that year? 18.



(And it's not just the sportswriters. In that never-to-be-seen-again 2005-06 season, the GMs around the league, who have their own MVP voting, had Bryant fifth on their ballots.)



And nothing is going to make this season any different.




[+] EnlargeAP Photo/Matt Sayles

Kobe Bryant finished behind P.J. Brown in the 2004-05 MVP voting. Yes, you read that correctly.
So yes, there is an "earned the right" clause that goes on in all MVP voting, just as there is that same "clause" that exists in all professions and walks of life. But it will not apply to Kobe Bryant. Not this year or any other year. He's not Denzel, and this isn't "Training Day." And although there are those who say that Kobe is in a different place now, that the world does not "resent" him the way that it did, that the Colorado incident is behind him and that the Kobe who wears No. 24 is different than the one who wore No. 8, their delusion will only make the situation worse. For it brings false hope. In sticking with the Academy Awards analogy: Kobe Bryant is Martin Scorsese … before "The Departed."


So the reality is this: As nice -- and I mean nice in a This-dude-is-on-some-beyond-Steve-Nash level -- as Chris Paul's game has been all season long (his full name during broadcasts and highlight shows has become "MVP candidate Chris Paul") his season can't compare to Kobe's past two. Yes, he's elevated his team to a height that no one expected, but can you name one player on the Lakers (not including Kobe) over the past three years who is as good or has played as well as David West has this season? Hell, name one who has played as well as Peja Stojakovic or Tyson Chandler.



Plus how will the voters justify not giving CP3 the MVP in a season when his numbers are better than Nash's were the two seasons he got back-to-back MVPs? Paul's 21.5 points, 11.5 assists, 4.0 rebounds, 2.7 steals and 2.5 turnovers are better in totality than the 15.5, 11.5, 3.4, 1.0 and 3.3 Nash put up in 2004-05 and the 18.8, 10.5, 4.2, 0.8 and 3.5 he posted during the 2005-06 season. And CP's team is in position to do what Nash's team did when he came back to Phoenix: earn the top seed in the West. So if Nash won 62 games and the West in '05-06 with inferior numbers to Paul's, how does the league not give Paul the award if his team wins 60 and has the best record in the West?

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jackson/080407&sportCat=nba


Nice column....sad but true.


And trust, CP3's electability is off the charts compared to Kobe's. His MVP approval rating is sic, while Kobe's is sick. So Chris, congrats, enjoy the Maurice Podoloff. The voters love you.



And that's not necessarily because of who CP (or KG if you want to toss him into this conversation) is as much as it is because of who Kobe is: the "8" they love to hate. Someone less understood than a villain, and someone for whom those who vote have less tolerance when it comes to separating what he does from who he is. It's the same reason why upon eligibility into the Hall of Fame, Roger Clemens will receive more first-ballot votes than Barry Bonds. It will have more to do with how much more Roger was/is/remains beloved than Barry by those who will have the power to vote them into immortality than it will race or the level of crime either one committed while playing.



Is it right? Fair? Impartial? No. It's life. And for Kobe, it's become his life.



In sports, in the end, whether we want to acknowledge it honestly or not, athletes put their legacies in the hands of those who have the power to hate them. And in those situations, what they do on the court or field, whether we are talking MVP or Hall of Fame (or Oscars), what they do takes a backseat to who they are. Their careers become a popularity contest, a "likability" raffle lying in wait for the hate to die. Which it never really does. And in the past five years in professional sports, no athlete (with the exception of maybe Bonds or T.O.) has been more hated and hated on than Kobe Bryant.



Don't believe me? Watch what happens when he doesn't win the MVP … again.

[Tippecanoe]

this years MVP race is just insane

[TheMACHINE]

Kobe aint gonna win it. Too much hate.

[Phil Hellmuth]

Scoop plagiarized:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Bp8ns7Bkm-s

[monosylab1k]

Did Scoop pull the race card? That's the only move I've seen him make, so I quit reading him altogether.

[Medvedenko]

Yeah, the race is crazy indeed.

Also, the lakers are the only team that has 4 players in the top 26 in effeciency this year as per NBA.com
Kobe
Pau
Lamar
Bynum

Only Denver has 3 players as the next highest.

[JamStone]

Scoop trying to use his Jedi mind tricks to reverse psychologize voters. It's a bit too transparent though.

If Kobe really outplays Chris Paul this Friday, he will definitely get his share of votes. I wouldn't be surprised if Kobe decides to take on Chris Paul at the defensive end.

[Medvedenko]

Did Scoop pull the race card? That's the only move I've seen him make, so I quit reading him altogether.


I didn't surmise that Mono....who knows.

[monosylab1k]

Scoop & Jemele Hill are the two worst sports writers I've ever read. No wonder he gives her a shout out at the start of his shitty column.

[monosylab1k]

2 paragraphs in and there's a Bobby Brown reference. I've quit reading.

[monosylab1k]

I know I shouldn't say this, but I will anyways. If I had the opportunity, I would LOVE to just slap the hell out of Jemele Hill for a good 5 minutes. And if there was only some way to make Scoop's disgustingly overinflated ego and his superstar ass-kissing self realize that Jason Whitlock is 10000000000000x better than him.

[Medvedenko]

Scoop trying to use his Jedi mind tricks to reverse psychologize voters. It's a bit too transparent though.

If Kobe really outplays Chris Paul this Friday, he will definitely get his share of votes. I wouldn't be surprised if Kobe decides to take on Chris Paul at the defensive end.


What does 1 game mean really. The hornets beat the lakers last game when Pau went down in the first q and the game before the lakers killed them by 29. The game they won was where Peja hit 10 3's and went for a season high. It shouldn't come down to 1 game.

[monosylab1k]

Kobe deserves MVP this year regardless of what Paul is doing. If Paul wins it, I won't complain because he deserves it too, but I have no problem whatsoever giving Kobe a "sorry we didn't give this to you last year & the year before" MVP.

[Medvedenko]

Jerry West and Baylor never won it either.......

[JamStone]

Scoop & Jemele Hill are the two worst sports writers I've ever read. No wonder he gives her a shout out at the start of his shitty column.

Agreed. They're both horrible. Jemele Hill was horrible when she wrote for the Detroit Free Press. I wondered how the hell she got a gig in Bristol.

[JamStone]

What does 1 game mean really. The hornets beat the lakers last game when Pau went down in the first q and the game before the lakers killed them by 29. The game they won was where Peja hit 10 3's and went for a season high. It shouldn't come down to 1 game.


In reality, not much. But, games later in the season, especially between two top teams with two MVP candidates, may have some significance to some voters, whether really valid or not.

[Allanon]

I agree with Jamstone and take it one step further. The MVP is CP3's right now for him to lose.

The Lakers/Hornets game on Friday will determine the MVP because it is very likely this game also determines the #1 seed in the West.

Like I said before, if CP3 keeps the #1 seed in the West, he'll win MVP. If Kobe takes back the #1 seed on Friday, that will guarantee Kobe's MVP.

[endrity]

The despise that Hill and Scoop have for white players like Nash and Dirk is silly. It should be enough to fire them. Yet it's cool to do that if you cover the NBA.

How Hill can say that Dirk shamelessly took the MVP from Kobe in 07 is beyond logical. The only other player that had any argument last year was Nash. At least Whitlock admitted that.

[monosylab1k]

How Hill can say that Dirk shamelessly took the MVP from Kobe in 07 is beyond logical.
Yeah that part was extremely irritating. How can you say Dirk shamelessly took the MVP? He was the best player on the best regular season team. He never asked for that kind of honor. Now, Mark Cuban certainly DID shamelessly promote Dirk. But Dirk had nothing to do with that.

Was he supposed to refuse to accept the trophy after what happened in the playoffs? That would have created even more controversy than just taking it.

To call Dirk's accepting of last year's MVP "shameless" ought to be a fireable offense.

[endrity]

Well it's not that part that irritates me. No one will ever give back a trophy. I don't think she was refeering to that.

She is saying that somehow Kobe deserved the MVP last year, when I am pretty sure I went the whole season hearing only two names: Dirk and Nash. Where did she find that Kobe was a candidate last year?

I think she also wrote a story last year saying that she thought Dirk wasn't that much better than Nash, but that's it. This is revisionist history at it's best.

[urunobili]

come on! be a little more positive... Kobe will get it... i want him to...

[monosylab1k]

She is saying that somehow Kobe deserved the MVP last year, when I am pretty sure I went the whole season hearing only two names: Dirk and Nash. Where did she find that Kobe was a candidate last year?
I just don't like her use of the word shameless. She could say Kobe deserved it over Dirk, which is certainly a valid opinion. But calling Dirk's MVP "shameless" implies some sort of responsibility resting on Dirk. There was nothing "shameless" in what Dirk did to win the MVP, or in him accepting that award. She made implications that somehow Dirk was trying to take something that he didn't deserve, rather than just playing his game and being given that award.

[Medvedenko]

What's shameless isn't dirk accepting it's shameless that he was voted over Kobe. That's my opinion. The Lakers were decimated by injuries last year and Kobe carried them on his back and putting ungodly stats to boot.

It's funny NO is 1.5 games up on the Lakers and they are crowning Paul the MVP while Kobe's team has had Bynum miss 40+ games (First place in the league when he went down) and Pau missing 9 games that really sunk it for them in the standings. Paul's team has been relatively healthy all season, of course they have the best record. They are using the best player on the best team argument and forget to mention what Kobe and the Lakers have had to deal with. Too Funny.....

[Phil Hellmuth]

It's funny NO is 1.5 games up on the Lakers and they are crowning Paul the MVP while Kobe's team has had Bynum miss 40+ games (First place in the league when he went down) and Pau missing 9 games that really sunk it for them in the standings. Paul's team has been relatively healthy all season, of course they have the best record. They are using the best player on the best team argument and forget to mention what Kobe and the Lakers have had to deal with. Too Funny.....

don't forget lakers team as a whole is a much better unit than hornets complete team. Hornets bench f'n sucks. THis helps in the long run of the season when you have Fish, Sasha, and Farmar having fresh legs playing out there most of the time.

[TDMVPDPOY]

htf can you say someone deserves to win one cause they are due for one?

dont you have to go out and earn it?

[Brutalis]

Kobe should win it.

But we know where should gets you in this league, just ask Bowen.

[TheMACHINE]

don't forget lakers team as a whole is a much better unit than hornets complete team. Hornets bench f'n sucks. THis helps in the long run of the season when you have Fish, Sasha, and Farmar having fresh legs playing out there most of the time.

huh...that dont make sense....thats a bit of a reach.

[jacobdrj]

I agree with Jamstone and take it one step further. The MVP is CP3's right now for him to lose.

The Lakers/Hornets game on Friday will determine the MVP because it is very likely this game also determines the #1 seed in the West.

Like I said before, if CP3 keeps the #1 seed in the West, he'll win MVP. If Kobe takes back the #1 seed on Friday, that will guarantee Kobe's MVP.
Thats what we thought about Billups... Reality is that Kobe is a seksier pick.

[LakeShow]

The MVP voting is a joke. It changes every year. Best player on best team? That was not the case with Nash winning the award. If the lakers win the west, I wouldn't be surprised if Kobe did not win it again. Kobe should have won the award when he had a record breaking season and scored 81 points in a game and singlehandily had fans interested in the NBA just to see what he does. There was not a more valuable player in the league for their team and the league that season than Kobe Bryant.

[endrity]

What's shameless isn't dirk accepting it's shameless that he was voted over Kobe. That's my opinion. The Lakers were decimated by injuries last year and Kobe carried them on his back and putting ungodly stats to boot.



With the exeption of Nash in 06, which is the worst MVP choice in a long time (but he deserved 05), no one has won the MVP for leading an injured team to a mediocre record and #7 seed. Even most Kobe fans will say that 07 was not that great a season by him, especially when you consider what he did in 06.

Even most Lakers fans last year were arguing that they would rather see Dirk win it over Nash cause of the dislike for the Suns, but I don't think I ever saw a campaign for Kobe.

Therefore there was nothing shameless that a guy who was leading most efficiency ratings in the league, while leading his team to a 67-15 record, won the MVP. If anything it was completely logical. This is why it's revisionist history.

It's also why guys like Scoop and Hill, are blatant racists. Their hate for white players is very open. If it was the other way around (white writer, black player) not only would they be out of a job really soon, but they would be open to legal suits and more.

[endrity]

John Hollinger: Greetings everyone, one week to go and virtually nothing's settled out West. Let's talk about it.
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TJ (Plano, TX): What teams in the west have the best chances of upsetting a higher seed in the first round?

John Hollinger: I think you have to look at Dallas as a very dangerous No. 7, especially as Dirk plays himself back into shape. I'd give them the best chance.
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John (San Antonio): Your playoff odds predictor is pretty cool, I have to say, John. However, do you ever find yourself wishing you could add some sort of "experience factor" to the formulas? Or do you really think the Spurs only have a 3.6% chance of winning the title?

John Hollinger: I think that's actually about right. When you consider the odds of coming out of the West, and then the fact you have to beat Boston or Detroit when you get there ... it's hard to give them really great odds.
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Steve Wood (champaign, Illinios): Are teams gonna 'tank' to get the #3 seed so that they can play the Rockets in the first round?

John Hollinger: But in doing that, you give up home court advantage for the second round. So I'm not sure you really do yourself a favor by tanking like that.
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Matt (Fort Collins): Hi John...did the Jazz's dismantling of the Spurs impress you at all? Or just another home win?

John Hollinger: Of course it impressed me. I think Utah is really being overlooked right now, they could very easily win the West.
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Jake (Salt Lake): John, you have the Jazz with the best odds of making and winning the finals in the West (I assume that is because of their point differential). Knowing their home/road splits and the likelihood of them starting the playoffs on the road, do you think the playoff odds are accurate or would you adjust them? Thanks.

John Hollinger: No, I'd stick with that. Large home-road splits are often flukes, even though it doesn't seem that way when you're living through it.
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Riley (Las Vegas): What game will you be reporting from this week?

John Hollinger: I'm reporting from my couch this week, at least until Saturday when the Celtics come down to Atlanta. Letting the batteries recharge a little before the playoffs start.
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Lenny (Villanova PA): John, do you see Stephon Marbury's expiring contract as able to land a decent player for the Knicks next year? Also, would you give up David Lee if it meant someone taking on Zach Randolph's contract?

John Hollinger: Those are the two hugest questions Donnie Walsh has to ponder, and the answers aren't easy. Keeping Marbury around doesn't guarantee a Gasol-type deal will come available -- but if it did, wouldn't you kick yourself if you'd already bought the guy out? As far as the Randolph thing goes, the answer probably is related to how strong you think the odds are of getting LeBron or Wade in 2010, because clearing the cap space to do that means dumping Randolph's contract.
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Pat (Fort Morgan, CO): The Warriors are getting screwed by the 5pm PST start for the Nuggets game on Thursday. Why isn't anybody mentioning this? The arena will be half-empty until the third quarter.

John Hollinger: I'll mention it. And here's the really weird part -- they're doing it so they can show a Laker-Clipper game as the second part of the doubleheader. WHAT?!?!? For crying out loud TNT, move the Utah-Dallas game to the early game, and kill that awful turkey you have as the nightcap.
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Jeff (ATL): Would you consider an ATL lost to Indy tonight as a missed opportunity? I'm so nervous that the Hawks will botch this and NJ or Indy will make a miraculous comeback and take our spot at 8.

John Hollinger: ATL still has a great shot with a loss -- they play the Knicks and Heat, and the Celtics and Magic may be resting their starters, and a mediocre Indy team still has to pretty much run the table. But winning tonight would make things much, much easier, yes -- Indy would be eliminated and NJ would be 99% of the way there.
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Kevin(La Habar, CA): Derrick Rose over Beasley for top pick after Final Four?

John Hollinger: Rose is a heck of a player, but I thought the final showcased the one thing Beasley does much better than Rose -- score.
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Josh, Ottawa U: I'm really afraid for the Raptors. They've looked horrible for about a month, is there enough time to turn it around and make some playoff noise or are they're weaknesses just too obvious?

John Hollinger: I'd be really afraid too. If they end up at No. 7 they're dead meat, and even at No. 6 it's hard to be too excited about their chances.
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Jeff (LA, CA): The Lakers beat the Jazz on the road without their 2nd and 3rd best player and the Jazz are below .500 on the road yet you have them as most likely to win the West??

John Hollinger: L.A.'s win in Utah was very impressive ... but it was one game out of 82. We could just as easily focus on the Lakers' losing at home to Memphis. Utah has the top point differential in the West and has played the best over the past month and a half or so, so that's why the odds favor them.
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James (PA): In response to the question about tanking to get the 6 seed to face houston. It's just as likely Houston is the 5 and Suns are the 6. Houston is a game up on them and if Houston can beat Phoenix it's all but clinched.

John Hollinger: Great point. That game is in Houston, too.
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Gus (Pensacola): Is Dirk Nowitzki human? How in the world does someone recover from a high ankle sprain in one week?

John Hollinger: I have no idea. What's really crazy isn't just that he's playing, but that he's playing really, really well. This is probably the best Dallas has looked in several weeks.
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Michael (Batavia, NY): If the Lakers finish as the #2 seed, does Kobe Bryant get your vote as MVP? I see an argument for Chris Paul, but the Hornets haven't had all of the injuries the Lakers have.

John Hollinger: I think Kobe's argument for MVP is pretty weak to be honest. His PER isn't even better than Garnett's, who is supposed to be the non-numbers candidate, and it isn't close to Paul's or James's. If he wins, it's a guilt trip by the writers over the '06 vote.
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Mike (Aurora CO): What is wrong the the Denver Nuggets? Why do the continuously lose games to lesser opponents? Are they going to clean house if they do not make the playoffs?

John Hollinger: The "missing the playoffs" thing makes thing seem worse than they are - Denver will finish with more wins than last year, for instance. But yes, those were two petty horrible losses, and I have no idea why they didn't foul Ridnour when he started driving through the lane at the end of the first OT.
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Bryan, Pekin, IL: What is the best team in the last 20 years to fininsh 9th in the conference and not make the playoffs?

John Hollinger: Houston went 45-37 and missed the playoffs a few years ago, that was the former high-water mark. Denver/Golden State will end up at 48 or 49, so that will shatter the record.
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Steve (SLC): For weeks I've tried to make myself believe that the Nuggest truly do have good defense, but John, as much as I love your stats, after watching them the last few weeks, the eye doesn't lie, Denver's defense is pathetic.

John Hollinger: They haven't defended as well in the second half of the season as in the first half, but you're being deceived by pace too. Sacramento shot 46.6% and had 22 turnovers, but scored 118 because the game was so fast. Golden State hit 40.4% but scored 112 because they took 104 field-goal attempts in a single game. Yes, the D was horrid in Seattle, and not great vs. Phoenix (though the Suns are No.1 in Offensive Efficiency), but the pace deception magnifies all their problems.
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Thibault (France): Do you think the Hornets will keep up their good play come playoff time? People seem to forget that except for Paul all of their starters have playoff experience,which isn't too shabby.

John Hollinger: Playoff experience is overrated in my estimation. Teams like New Orleans that have come out of nowhere to get a high seed have done fine in the playoffs.
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Andy (Denver): CP or Bron Bron, which would get your MVP vote?

John Hollinger: Leaning strongly toward CP3 at the moment. He's almost drawn even in PER, he hasn't missed any games, his team is in first in the West, and he saved basketball in New Orleans. What more do you want?
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Steve (Moscow, Idaho): Houston moving up to the 5 seed would be suicide wouldn't it? Houston couldn't beat Utah last year with home court and Yao, is there any reason to think they can beat Utah in a series this year?

John Hollinger: Well, Houston would actually have home court if the current standings hold up. But no, I don't think they can beat Utah either.
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Justin (New York, NY): Is PER not the most useless statistic ever created? Would you ever take Carl Landry over franchise players because your PER rating system ranked him higher?

John Hollinger: Would you take a player who batted .427 in 100 at bats over Alex Rodriguez? Of course not. Same thing here. Landry's PER is through the roof because he's played insanely well -- but in a little over 500 minutes. A little something called "regression to the mean" says we'd expect him to not play quite as spectacularly in his next 500 minutes ... but all the stats can do is describe how somebody has performed, and Landry has performed unbelievably well.
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Kelly, Manhattan Beach, CA: Do you think a large percentage of the media who has MVP votes will decide their MVP on Friday with the outcome of the Hornets/Laker game?

John Hollinger: I kind of doubt it, since a large chunk of the people who do the voting will be attending other games at the time. The Sunday and Thursday games tend to be much bigger for that reason -- all the other media people can watch.
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MC Welk (SLC): Do you think a small % of the media will decide their MVP vote tonight after CP3 gets dogged by Williams?

John Hollinger: Ha-ha. But there's something else to keep an eye on here -- the potential for a second-round meeting between the Jazz and Hornets. Wouldn't that be awesome?
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Bryan (Boulder): To be MVP, Chris Paul should be recognized as the best player in the game. That's what more I want. If Kobe isn't the MVP - and by the way PER is merely an indicator not a precise reflection of value - than why do the vast majority of players, coaches, and GMs routinely cite him as the league's best player?

John Hollinger: No, it doesn't mean best player, it means best season. You'd still draft Kobe ahead of Paul until he proved he could repeat his level of play this year -- but there's no question he's played better than Kobe in 2007-08.

As far as the other part of your question, I wish I knew why everyone keeps saying Kobe is the best player -- he's certainly the most electrifying, and he's the best player 6-6 or under, but LeBron has outPERed him three straight years and Dirk has for four, and it's not like he's had massive intangibles to offset that.
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Eric, Houston: Do GM's, experts, etc really consider Kobe a better individual player than LeBron at this point? LeBron is better, plain and simple.

John Hollinger: Pretty much, yes. Kobe is more fun to watch, but LeBron is more effective.
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Wheezy(San Antonio): John, how do you hit .427 in 100 at bats? 42.7 hits? I'm confused.

John Hollinger: Wow, called out for a non-integer hit total. That's a first. Let's say .420 in 100 at bats. That make everyone feel better?
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Gus (Pensacola): Do you think that the media has created a mythology that the best player in the NBA must be the one who is the most like Michael Jordan, even if he is massively inferior to Jordan? That's the only reason I can think of for people insisting Kobe Bryant is the league's best player.

John Hollinger: No, I think it's more a case of the media's small-guy-itis. When they were teammates people would say "Shaq is the most dominant and Kobe is the best player" -- as though Shaq dunking on people's heads didn't really count and Kobe was doing the really difficult stuff. I think a similar vibe exists when people compare him to Duncan or KG or Dirk -- we naturally relate better to players closer to our size and players who have the ball in their hands the most often; in both cases, those are the guards.
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Pristo, NYC: So what your saying is that since Dirk has outperformed KOBE for four straight year in PER, you consider him a better player? Would anyone in the world take Dirk over Kobe? I didn't think so.

John Hollinger: Over the past four years, Dirk has been the best player on a conference champion, had a 67-win season, and won the MVP. Pretty good resume, no?
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Yoni (Tel Aviv, Israel): Hey John, Any chance Duncan finally wins Defensive Player of the year? I think its crazy he did not win it yet

John Hollinger: No chance. Garnett will win Defensive Player of the Year unless all the voters lose their minds.
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Andrew (Albuquerque): How likely is it that the Hornets keep the number 1 seed in the West?

John Hollinger: Pretty likely, especially if they beat Utah tonight. If they don't, losing to L.A. Friday would be a problem since they'd be tied in the loss column and lose the tie-break.
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lebron(no): so if kobe wins the mvp this year would you howl that the votes are not correct? would you say chris paul or lebron wuz cheated?

John Hollinger: If Kobe won this year it would not be as bad as the '06 vote or the Iverson vote or the Barkley vote. But Paul, James and Garnett are more deserving.
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Paul, Memphis: How come the announcers didn't even notice or call out that Memphis should've fouled Kansas before they had a chance to shoot the tying 3 at the end of regulation?

John Hollinger: You noticed that too? Apparently Memphis was trying to foul and just failed to get it ... at least that's what they said afterward.
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Chris (Kalamazoo, Michigan): Is this John Hollinger's Western Conference Chat? How about some Leastern info!

John Hollinger: It's such a foregone conclusion that the Hawks will win the East that nobody is that interested in discussing it.
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Josh Boston : Are you saying Dirk is better than Kobe now your just talking Crazy

John Hollinger: "is better" is always a loaded term ... let's put it this way -- look at the past four seasons and try to prove Kobe played better.
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Will, Houston, TX: Just to confirm...is "small-guy-itis" the reason that Steve Nash won the 04-05 MVP over Shaquille O'Neal?

John Hollinger: Actually, '04-05 was really weird. The best player (Garnett) didn't make the playoffs. the next two best, Shaq and Duncan, both missed a ton of time and only ended up playing like 2,500 minutes each. In the absence of any really strong candidates, everyone ended up being blown away by what the Suns did and gave, I would argue, an insanely large portion of the credit to the new guy. But it was a historically weak year as far as MVP candidates go.

John Hollinger: Folks, that's all the time I have, but I'll be back here next week at 3 ... and maybe we'll even know some playoff pairings by then. Thanks again for all the great questions.

[stretch]

Josh Boston : Are you saying Dirk is better than Kobe now your just talking Crazy

John Hollinger: "is better" is always a loaded term ... let's put it this way -- look at the past four seasons and try to prove Kobe played better.
When did Hollinger compare the two?

[endrity]

He said Dirk had a better resume for the past four years, true by the way, which of course riled up Corporate America who has been told non-stop that Dirk is a "soft, choker, cheater" for one year.

He said that LeBron and Dirk have outperformed Kobe in PER in the last three and 4 seasons respectively therefore even a make-up MVP is not justified.

[monosylab1k]

At least Hollinger is consistent when discussing PER. Most fans will immediately run to PER when it helps their argument, and dismiss it as a flawed nerd stat when the results don't fit their needs.

[endrity]

By the way I really thought this was Kobe's year, and probably deservedly so at least when compared to how bad the Cavs were on the East.

But what CP3 has done the last month or so is remarkable. Unless Kobe just goes crazy on the Hornets on Friday, it would make it very hard to justify the MVP for Kobe. It would be completely a make-up one.

And what happens next year when the Lakers all come back healthy, and they make a run at the 1 seed? Do we not give Kobe the MVP in 09 because he got one non deserving in 08, and see if we can make up for the one CP3 doesn't get this year.

[endrity]

At least Hollinger is consistent when discussing PER. Most fans will immediately run to PER when it helps their argument, and dismiss it as a flawed nerd stat when the results don't fit their needs.

It's his greatest contributions to ABPRmetrics, and really one of the greatest contributions to the field. He better be consistent with it.

[johngateswhiteley]

kobe isn't the mvp...so who gives a damn.

[Medvedenko]

Quote:
Originally Posted by endrity




Josh Boston : Are you saying Dirk is better than Kobe now your just talking Crazy

John Hollinger: "is better" is always a loaded term ... let's put it this way -- look at the past four seasons and try to prove Kobe played better.

Man this guy makes me laugh. How can a guy who is 1st team all Defense and lead the lead in scoring last year be a worse player. He can shove his per up his ass.

Oh and crappy journalists like him influence the sheep....sad but true.

[TheMACHINE]

he said james is more deserving..what a joke.

[endrity]

Man this guy makes me laugh. How can a guy who is 1st team all Defense and lead the lead in scoring last year be a worse player. He can shove his per up his ass.

Oh and crappy journalists like him influence the sheep....sad but true.

Well Iverson led the league in scoring 4 times, and won an MVP while doing it. Hollinger has been pretty consistent on his idea on him, going so far as saying that Shaq deserved the 01 MVP over Iverson and that it's one of the worst decisions ever.

Hollinger invented the PER exactly so that more than points scored are taking into consideration. That is the whole point of the APBRmetrics which more and more teams are using nowadays.

And Dirk's resume from 05-07 is absolutely brilliant. He did this while losing Nash, Finley, his old coach, a complete roster turnover, and yet the Mavs were still one of the elite teams in the league. I am not saying Dirk is a more skilled player than Kobe, but to deny what Dirk has done in these last 3-4 seasons is pure blindness. I know that it's cool to hate him, but please look up his achievements before denigrating him.

Plus, there is one fundamental point in what Hollinger is saying. Basketball is and has been a big man's game, especially in the NBA level. Besides Jordan, no guard led team ever became a dominant team. Therefore when people rush to claim that Kobe or LeBron are the best players in the game, they completely forget that this is an era dominated by Shaq and Duncan. A Duncan who is still alive and kicking, and that KG and Dirk, while not the spectular players that Kobe and LeBron are, have had excellent career's. Many coaches will tell you that the best player in the game is the best big man, and looking at history they are not wrong. Anyone who does not include Duncan in any best player list, is simply an uninformed fan of the NBA.

[Medvedenko]

Yes a big man is definitely important and moreso than a SG.....can't deny history.
I'm not denying Dirk's stats, far from it, but when you achieve things in a season that haven't happened in decades and finish 3rd it's pure media bias.

[endrity]

Yes a big man is definitely important and moreso than a SG.....can't deny history.
I'm not denying Dirk's stats, far from it, but when you achieve things in a season that haven't happened in decades and finish 3rd it's pure media bias.

Dirk's not just stats, he's much more. He kept his team at an elite level while going through vast changes in the team and organization... kinda like Kobe losing Shaq, at a lesser level for sure.

As for 06, which is what I think you are referring to, Hollinger has said this numerous times and I agree: The difference between Kobe, Wade, Dirk, and LeBron in that year was infinetely small. Kobe had a great scoring average, but LeBron was filling up the stat sheet, Dirk peaking at his efficiency and Wade took over the Heat down the stretch. Any of those guys could have won that year, yet somehow Nash won it. That was the bias part.

Yet, Dirk did not steal anything from Kobe in 07. He was also vastly superior in 05 when Kobe missed the playoffs all together. That means that Hollinger's claim that Dirk's recent history trumps Kobe's is very logical. The man bases his ideas on numbers, he is as bias free as a writer can be, has claimed that according to the SAME STATS Jordan is the best player ever, so there is no SG bias as well.

As I said, I really think that this is Kobe's year. I think he has a superior case than LeBron and KG. But with CP3's play recently, I have my doubts that Kobe has a better case. For everyone's sake, he better dominate on Friday.

[Medvedenko]

The game vs NO shouldn't matter but to the "media" it will. Creating something out of nothing. I don't care if Kobe scores 15 points as long as they win.

[Purple & Gold]

Chris Paul is also deserving. Wouldn't be upset if he won it. MVP awards mean little to me anyways.

[Phil Hellmuth]

huh...that dont make sense....thats a bit of a reach.

what does not make sense??? Hornets bench is thin.

Lakers bench is deep.

:lol

[LakerMagic]

I can live with Paul winning the MVP. He's had an awesome year. And as the previous poster stated, its Paul's to lose. Whats more important to me as a fan is winning.

However if Kobe comes in 4th or 5th in voting, behind the likes of Lebron, Garnett, or God forbid, Amare(:lol) then that is complete bullshit! But that would make winning the title even more sweeter.

[Allanon]

I can live with Paul winning the MVP. He's had an awesome year. And as the previous poster stated, its Paul's to lose. Whats more important to me as a fan is winning.

However if Kobe comes in 4th or 5th in voting, behind the likes of Lebron, Garnett, or God forbid, Amare(:lol) then that is complete bullshit! But that would make winning the title even more sweeter.

Hahah, seriously. CP3 has done an amazing job. I can't argue that Kobe's been "better" but he has also contributed to the team playing injured and what not.

But it better not be anybody outside of them two.

[mrodgers]

kobe is definatly going to win the mvp because my story he is my second favorite player in the nba and he is the best

[Findog]

bumping MRodgers gay threads off the front page

[JamStone]

If Kobe really outplays Chris Paul this Friday, he will definitely get his share of votes. I wouldn't be surprised if Kobe decides to take on Chris Paul at the defensive end.

What does 1 game mean really. The hornets beat the lakers last game when Pau went down in the first q and the game before the lakers killed them by 29. The game they won was where Peja hit 10 3's and went for a season high. It shouldn't come down to 1 game.


Still early in the game, but this is what I was getting at. I really think Kobe wants to play well against Paul and the Hornets.

[Medvedenko]

So Kobe had a big game and his team won and beat the Hornets....is he the MVP now...nope, they'll find an excuse again.... but if it was the other way around CP3 would have it locked up.

[endrity]

No I think he clinched it. Paul was awful from the field as well, I think Kobe clinched it. There is too much "he's waited for too long" feeling around, that I don't think voters are gonna look elswhere this time.

[Obstructed_View]

That's a stupid reason to give a guy MVP, but it's been happening for years. Whoever got rooked this year is a lock to win it next year if he has a remotely decent season.

[endrity]

Yeah, there is very little that separates Kobe and Paul in my eyes. But Kobe will get it because he is due. That's how it will go, rightfully or not.

[Allanon]

Finally it seems Kobe will be getting his dues.

It's a travesty that the best player in the game has not finished better than 3rd in the MVP voting. The Kobe hate is quite apparent.

[Killakobe81]

Kobe deserves it Paul has had an amazing year as well Lebron too ...

[TDMVPDPOY]

so you going to award a guy cause his due for one?

and not rewarding to another guy cause his young and has a potential to win one in the future?

[Allanon]

Not because he's due. You can't fault Kobe's season can you?

[TheMACHINE]

so you going to award a guy cause his due for one?

and not rewarding to another guy cause his young and has a potential to win one in the future?


If your gonna give it to kobe cuz its due..THIS is definately the year to do it...cuz he atleast deserves it.

[ChuckD]

don't forget lakers team as a whole is a much better unit than hornets complete team. Hornets bench f'n sucks. THis helps in the long run of the season when you have Fish, Sasha, and Farmar having fresh legs playing out there most of the time.
Word. You could say that Paul has gone 82 games without either a Gasol or Bynum calibur player.

[Medvedenko]

Word. You could say that Paul has gone 82 games without either a Gasol or Bynum calibur player.

Really....Actually the Lakers have no current allstars on their team other than Kobe.

I will agree though, if Kobe had both Bynum and Pau for the entire 82 games, it wouldn't be a discussion either as we'd win close to 70 games.

[JamStone]

so you going to award a guy cause his due for one?

and not rewarding to another guy cause his young and has a potential to win one in the future?

I think it's more like it's a toss-up between the two and if you want to use the fact that "he's due" as the deciding factor, then you can see it happening. To me, it's not clear either way. My deciding factor would be which is the better player. I think Kobe is the better player.

[TDMVPDPOY]

If your gonna give it to kobe cuz its due..THIS is definately the year to do it...cuz he atleast deserves it.

DUE doesnt mean shit,

you dont want something given to you, cause you got some bias advantage over another person....now is that equal opportunity?

[endrity]

Look I think that Kobe probably deserves it.

But the Laker fans have to forget this idea that guy is due. Exept 06, never did he have a season where the body of work showed him deserving it. And 06 was a very close year, with a bunch of great candidates. He averaged 35, yet Jordan averaged 37 in 88 (or 87, I am not sure) and still didn't win it.

Kobe had the good luck of being drafted by a team that was well within a shot of winning the championship. However by the time he was in his his prime, the team found itself in a position to rebuild. Usually a good young player goes to a bad team, and they slowly start to build around him. By the time he is in his prime, the team also has put enough of a cast to support the guy and he is able to lead them to a top record, while also being at the peak of his game.

That's not how it went for Kobe, his fault or not. And the 'value' in this league is proven only through wins. As long as never had a great record to go along with his stats, he never deserved an MVP. 08 is finally the first year when he is putting it all together. He may win it or not, but he is due nothing. If he has a season or two like these again and still doesn't win it, than he is due.

[Sense]

What's shameless isn't dirk accepting it's shameless that he was voted over Kobe. That's my opinion. The Lakers were decimated by injuries last year and Kobe carried them on his back and putting ungodly stats to boot.

It's funny NO is 1.5 games up on the Lakers and they are crowning Paul the MVP while Kobe's team has had Bynum miss 40+ games (First place in the league when he went down) and Pau missing 9 games that really sunk it for them in the standings. Paul's team has been relatively healthy all season, of course they have the best record. They are using the best player on the best team argument and forget to mention what Kobe and the Lakers have had to deal with. Too Funny.....

It's CP3....

[Allanon]

Look I think that Kobe probably deserves it.

But the Laker fans have to forget this idea that guy is due. Exept 06, never did he have a season where the body of work showed him deserving it. And 06 was a very close year, with a bunch of great candidates. He averaged 35, yet Jordan averaged 37 in 88 (or 87, I am not sure) and still didn't win it.


Kobe deserved the MVP in 2006. 81 points, outscoring the entire Mavs team in 3 quarters? Kobe made the NBA all the buzz again. Individually, he had people talking about the NBA again. That's MVP worthy.

Then on the Team side, he took his team to the #7 seed in the Western Conference. That wasn't as good as some of the other candidates but look at the teammates.

Aside from Lamar Odom, you tell me which one of those would have been a starter on ANY team (at that point in their career)

Smush Parker
Kwame Brown
Luke Walton
Lamar Odom
Sasha Vujacic
Brian Cook
Devean George
Jim Jackson
Aaron McKie
Ronny Turiaf
Chris Mihm

I mean seriously, that team's a friggin' joke...they should have been struggling to win even 20 games but they made the Playoffs as a #7.

Then look at Dirk's team and Nash's team and tell me how many guys are NBA starters.

Truth is Kobe took Lamar and an NBDL team to the Playoffs...he should have gotten an MVP for that along with the outstanding individual performance.

But too much Haterade getting passed around for him to win his MVP.