Seems Some Religions Are More Equal Than Others

[xrayzebra]

Especially in the cold country. After being exposed they now
want to start an investigation, surprisingly even the ACLU
wants to get into the act. What you want to bet nothing
changes. All in the name of PC.

StarTribune.com
Teacher breaks wall of silence at state's Muslim public school

By KATHERINE KERSTEN, Star Tribune

April 9, 2008

Recently, I wrote about Tarek ibn Ziyad Academy (TIZA), a K-8 charter school in Inver Grove Heights. Charter schools are public schools and by law must not endorse or promote religion.

Evidence suggests, however, that TIZA is an Islamic school, funded by Minnesota taxpayers.

TIZA has many characteristics that suggest a religious school. It shares the headquarters building of the Muslim American Society of Minnesota, whose mission is "establishing Islam in Minnesota." The building also houses a mosque. TIZA's executive director, Asad Zaman, is a Muslim imam, or religious leader, and its sponsor is an organization called Islamic Relief.

Students pray daily, the cafeteria serves halal food - permissible under Islamic law -- and "Islamic Studies" is offered at the end of the school day.

Zaman maintains that TIZA is not a religious school. He declined, however, to allow me to visit the school to see for myself, "due to the hectic schedule for statewide testing." But after I e-mailed him that the Minnesota Department of Education had told me that testing would not begin for several weeks, Zaman did not respond -- even to urgent calls and e-mails seeking comment before my first column on TIZA.

Now, however, an eyewitness has stepped forward. Amanda Getz of Bloomington is a substitute teacher. She worked as a substitute in two fifth-grade classrooms at TIZA on Friday, March 14. Her experience suggests that school-sponsored religious activity plays an integral role at TIZA.

Arriving on a Friday, the Muslim holy day, she says she was told that the day's schedule included a "school assembly" in the gym after lunch.

Before the assembly, she says she was told, her duties would include taking her fifth-grade students to the bathroom, four at a time, to perform "their ritual washing."

Afterward, Getz said, "teachers led the kids into the gym, where a man dressed in white with a white cap, who had been at the school all day," was preparing to lead prayer. Beside him, another man "was prostrating himself in prayer on a carpet as the students entered."

"The prayer I saw was not voluntary," Getz said. "The kids were corralled by adults and required to go to the assembly where prayer occurred."

Islamic Studies was also incorporated into the school day. "When I arrived, I was told 'after school we have Islamic Studies,' and I might have to stay for hall duty," Getz said. "The teachers had written assignments on the blackboard for classes like math and social studies. Islamic Studies was the last one -- the board said the kids were studying the Qu'ran. The students were told to copy it into their planner, along with everything else. That gave me the impression that Islamic Studies was a subject like any other."

After school, Getz's fifth-graders stayed in their classroom and the man in white who had led prayer in the gym came in to teach Islamic Studies. TIZA has in effect extended the school day -- buses leave only after Islamic Studies is over. Getz did not see evidence of other extra-curricular activity, except for a group of small children playing outside. Significantly, 77 percent of TIZA parents say that their "main reason for choosing TIZA ... was because of after-school programs conducted by various non-profit organizations at the end of the school period in the school building," according to a TIZA report. TIZA may be the only school in Minnesota with this distinction.

Why does the Minnesota Department of Education allow this sort of religious activity at a public school? According to Zaman, the department inspects TIZA regularly -- and has done so "numerous times" -- to ensure that it is not a religious school.

But the department's records document only three site visits to TIZA in five years -- two in 2003-04 and one in 2007, according to Assistant Commissioner Morgan Brown. None of the visits focused specifically on religious practices.

The department is set up to operate on a "complaint basis," and "since 2004, we haven't gotten a single complaint about TIZA," Brown said. In 2004, he sent two letters to the school inquiring about religious activity reported by visiting department staffers and in a news article. Brown was satisfied with Zaman's assurance that prayer is "voluntary" and "student-led," he said. The department did not attempt to confirm this independently, and did not ask how 5- to 11-year-olds could be initiating prayer. (At the time, TIZA was a K-5 school.)

Zaman agreed to respond by e-mail to concerns raised about the school's practices. Student "prayer is not mandated by TIZA," he wrote, and so is legal. On Friday afternoons, "students are released ... to either join a parent-led service or for study hall." Islamic Studies is provided by the Muslim American Society of Minnesota, and other "nonsectarian" after-school options are available, he added.

Yet prayer at TIZA does not appear to be spontaneously initiated by students, but rather scheduled, organized and promoted by school authorities.

Request for volunteers

Until recently, TIZA's website included a request for volunteers to help with "Friday prayers." In an e-mail, Zaman explained this as an attempt to ensure that "no TIZA staff members were involved in organizing the Friday prayers."

But an end run of this kind cannot remove the fact of school sponsorship of prayer services, which take place in the school building during school hours. Zaman does not deny that "some" Muslim teachers "probably" attend. According to federal guidelines on prayer in schools, teachers at a public school cannot participate in prayer with students.

In addition, schools cannot favor one religion by offering services for only its adherents, or promote after-school religious instruction for only one group. The ACLU of Minnesota has launched an investigation of TIZA, and the Minnesota Department of Education has also begun a review.

TIZA's operation as a public, taxpayer-funded school is troubling on several fronts. TIZA is skirting the law by operating what is essentially an Islamic school at taxpayer expense. The Department of Education has failed to provide the oversight necessary to catch these illegalities, and appears to lack the tools to do so. In addition, there's a double standard at work here -- if TIZA were a Christian school, it would likely be gone in a heartbeat.

TIZA is now being held up as a national model for a new kind of charter school. If it passes legal muster, Minnesota taxpayers may soon find themselves footing the bill for a separate system of education for Muslims.

Katherine Kersten • [email protected]

© 2008 Star Tribune. All rights reserved.

[Extra Stout]

I hope for Ms. Kersten's sake her address and phone number are unlisted; otherwise she might receive some extremely peaceful visitors.

[E20]

Make the school private and ask for the taxpayers money back and a fine, they should have included some data on what type of kids go to the school to further validify the claim.

[Yonivore]

Can't wait to see the ACLU's response.

[101A]

Why Minnesota?


I've wondered for a while.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Why Minnesota?


I've wondered for a while.


mild winters and long summers maybe?

[DarrinS]

There's probably shitloads of those schools in Canada.

[Don Quixote]

Are charter schools even allowed to be parochial or sectarian?

If not, then there might be some establishment clause issues here. And, like I've said before, anyone who thinks that it's consistent or even possible for Moslems to be secular in any way, shape, or form, is mistaken.

[jacobdrj]

I can't speak to this case, but I can give you a similar anecdote that happened with my family:

I went to a private K-12 school in the Metro Detroit area (suburbs) for a couple of years after moving to the area. It got prohibitively expensive. Luckily, Michigan's Charter School program was in full force, and I found a local one that was right up my alley, focusing on science, math, and engineering, taught by university professors.

The first semester was great. A bunch of kids like myself who wanted something better, and couldn't afford a private school got something close to home, right up their alley, on a university campus, no less.
By the 2nd semester, however, things began to change. The headmaster was fired... for keeping students out of the charter school, for, get this: intelligence discrimination. He was kicking kids out that shouldn't have been there, like refugee looser students who thought the new school would be a picnic. There was obviously something else going on. But with the firing of the headmaster, 300 new students were admitted, mid semester. No new faculty was added. Most of the new students were minorities, and almost all of them were refugees, coming to the school for the wrong reasons. By the beginning of the 3rd semester, it was painfully obvious that the model of the school would not last. Incidents were happening between the HS students and the university students, and a year after I graduated, the charter school moved to another campus in Dearborn.

What was happening was that each kid was worth $6000 a head, and the more students/less faculty, the more the head honchos made. Not to mention that with a good salesman in an automotive state, that selling sponsors on the school was lucrative in itself.

But that is just the beginning of the story. Back to the private school I left, due to financial reasons: That school moved to a much needed new building. The state had bought the old building, and turned it into a charter school. Keep in mind, a charter school is a public school with voluntary enrollment, as an alternative to conventional public schools. My dad, being the curious guy that he was, and with a son in another charter school, decided to pay the new charter school a visit, just to see what the new one was about. Long story short, it was all African American. Not a single face of any other ethnicity. What had occurred was a self-segregation. Certainly, they would not have refused someone of another ethnic group, but I would imagine it would not be a comfortable situation.

What the charter system does, in effect, is it undoes what busing tried to accomplish back in the 60's. It is publicly funded private institutions. In effect, you are eliminating an aspect of diversity that students may normally have early in their lives. Even with the 'Lunch Table Effect', there still is more exposure than probably happens on most charters (uncorroborated, and pure speculation) and that is completely neutralized, and done on the taxpayer dollar. I would imagine that school vouchers would have the same effect. As a purely selfish point of view, I would vote for vouchers, so that my siblings and perhaps children could more easily go to my private school of choice, but as someone looking at the 'Big Picture', I can't in good conscience promote either institution.

As far as this situation in Mini goes, maybe it is a de facto Islamic school. But that is what the charter system allows for, and the only way to get rid of it, is to get rid of the charter system itself.

[Don Quixote]

Great post! I will admit to not knowing the first thing about how public schools are run. (My area is philosophy, theology, and the Bible, and a little politics.)

So what is your solution? Scrap the charter system and do what, exactly?

[jacobdrj]

It seems to follow, as an unintended consequence, that charter schools inevitably lead to segmentation and segregation. Either we, as a society accepts this, or we abolish the system, and find a way to directly deal with public schools as they are to improve them.

[Yonivore]

I can't speak to this case, but I can give you a similar anecdote that happened with my family:

I went to a private K-12 school in the Metro Detroit area (suburbs) for a couple of years after moving to the area. It got prohibitively expensive. Luckily, Michigan's Charter School program was in full force, and I found a local one that was right up my alley, focusing on science, math, and engineering, taught by university professors.

The first semester was great. A bunch of kids like myself who wanted something better, and couldn't afford a private school got something close to home, right up their alley, on a university campus, no less.
By the 2nd semester, however, things began to change. The headmaster was fired... for keeping students out of the charter school, for, get this: intelligence discrimination. He was kicking kids out that shouldn't have been there, like refugee looser students who thought the new school would be a picnic. There was obviously something else going on. But with the firing of the headmaster, 300 new students were admitted, mid semester. No new faculty was added. Most of the new students were minorities, and almost all of them were refugees, coming to the school for the wrong reasons. By the beginning of the 3rd semester, it was painfully obvious that the model of the school would not last. Incidents were happening between the HS students and the university students, and a year after I graduated, the charter school moved to another campus in Dearborn.

What was happening was that each kid was worth $6000 a head, and the more students/less faculty, the more the head honchos made. Not to mention that with a good salesman in an automotive state, that selling sponsors on the school was lucrative in itself.

But that is just the beginning of the story. Back to the private school I left, due to financial reasons: That school moved to a much needed new building. The state had bought the old building, and turned it into a charter school. Keep in mind, a charter school is a public school with voluntary enrollment, as an alternative to conventional public schools. My dad, being the curious guy that he was, and with a son in another charter school, decided to pay the new charter school a visit, just to see what the new one was about. Long story short, it was all African American. Not a single face of any other ethnicity. What had occurred was a self-segregation. Certainly, they would not have refused someone of another ethnic group, but I would imagine it would not be a comfortable situation.

What the charter system does, in effect, is it undoes what busing tried to accomplish back in the 60's. It is publicly funded private institutions. In effect, you are eliminating an aspect of diversity that students may normally have early in their lives. Even with the 'Lunch Table Effect', there still is more exposure than probably happens on most charters (uncorroborated, and pure speculation) and that is completely neutralized, and done on the taxpayer dollar. I would imagine that school vouchers would have the same effect. As a purely selfish point of view, I would vote for vouchers, so that my siblings and perhaps children could more easily go to my private school of choice, but as someone looking at the 'Big Picture', I can't in good conscience promote either institution.

As far as this situation in Mini goes, maybe it is a de facto Islamic school. But that is what the charter system allows for, and the only way to get rid of it, is to get rid of the charter system itself.
Charter schools reflect the community in which they're found.

I have kids in a Charter school. It's neither segregated nor faith-oriented. They do, however, have high academic and conduct standards.

If Minneapolis-St. Paul gets a Charter Madrassa, I want a Charter Christian-based school where prayer is allowed, creation is explored, and God is revered.

[jacobdrj]

Are charter schools even allowed to be parochial or sectarian?

If not, then there might be some establishment clause issues here. And, like I've said before, anyone who thinks that it's consistent or even possible for Moslems to be secular in any way, shape, or form, is mistaken.

Well, this is a different issue. I belive that there is a mistaken tendency to sue Muslim and Arab as synonims. They are not. I think this also has to do with a different understanding of what certin things, like religions, as we understand them, are.

I am no expert (my knowledge consists of 2 Islamic Histories classes and the people I know) but Islam, by definition, is a religion, and therefore can not be secular. Arabs, Turks, and Persians, can be.

Our understanding of a religion varies because of how we understand it post-European nationalist movement.

Islam, as it was originally set up, set no distinction between the state and the faith. Not only this but there were originally ethnic inclusions as well, which changed during the different eras, as Arabs were thought to be more Muslim than, say, native Egyptians, or Turks.

Other religions follow different paradigms. Christianity, as I understand it, once institutionalized was the state and the religion, but NOT associated with a particular ethnicity. This changed with the various splits of the nobility from the Church in Europe, pre-renaissances.

Judism is further different as it is essentially a religion tied in directly to an ethnic group, that once had sovereignty over what is now called Israel. Even the word Jew is a derivative from the ancient nation of Judah that split from 10 other tribes who were members of the Hebrews (which translates as Easterner) who were also known as the Children of Israel then, thus incorporating an ancient nationalism as well as the other ethnic and religious continuity.

[jacobdrj]

Charter schools reflect the community in which they're found.

I have kids in a Charter school. It's neither segregated nor faith-oriented. They do, however, have high academic and conduct standards.

If Minneapolis-St. Paul gets a Charter Madrassa, I want a Charter Christian-based school where prayer is allowed, creation is explored, and God is revered.

Well, you are saying 2 conflicting statements.

A) Charter schools reflect the community in which they're found.

B) It's neither segregated nor faith-oriented.

In fact, in communities where there are strong commitments to those values, the charter schools will flourish. Unfortunately the opposite is true as well. You have, what I would imagine, is a favorable experience. I however, did not. In your school there may be sufficient transperity, due to apathy, to not having de facto endorsement of religion, but this would not be the case in schools hellbent on profit and with political/religious/ethnic agendas.


If Minneapolis-St. Paul gets a Charter Madrassa, I want a Charter Christian-based school where prayer is allowed, creation is explored, and God is revered.
This is why busing was instituted, for better or for worse, as it is the inevitable conclusion to charter schooling and vouchers.

[Yonivore]

Well, you are saying 2 conflicting statements.

A) Charter schools reflect the community in which they're found.

B) It's neither segregated nor faith-oriented.
I don't see those as conflicting.


In fact, in communities where there are strong commitments to those values, the charter schools will flourish. Unfortunately the opposite is true as well. You have, what I would imagine, is a favorable experience. I however, did not. In your school there may be sufficient transperity, due to apathy, to not having de facto endorsement of religion, but this would not be the case in schools hellbent on profit and with political/religious/ethnic agendas.
Then you don't patronize those schools and they fail. Many have.


This is why busing was instituted, for better or for worse, as it is the inevitable conclusion to charter schooling and vouchers.
I certainly don't see Charter schools on that trajectory. In fact, those that fail to make education the priority...simply fail and close the doors. It's happened on more than one ocassion here in the Austin area.

I like the idea you can shop around. And, instead of a voucher, I would like for the government to just give my school taxes back to me so I can use them to educate my children how I see fit. I cringe at the thought of my tax dollars supporting a failing, indoctrination system that treats children like cattle...herding them from one group experience to another.

[jacobdrj]

I don't see those as conflicting.


Then you don't patronize those schools and they fail. Many have.


I certainly don't see Charter schools on that trajectory. In fact, those that fail to make education the priority...simply fail and close the doors. It's happened on more than one ocassion here in the Austin area.

I like the idea you can shop around. And, instead of a voucher, I would like for the government to just give my school taxes back to me so I can use them to educate my children how I see fit. I cringe at the thought of my tax dollars supporting a failing, indoctrination system that treats children like cattle...herding them from one group experience to another.

I wasn't arguing the obvious advantages of the charter system. I was merely pointing out the possible dark side, as it relates to my life, as well as the article. I don't disagree that the Public School system is not ideal.

However, as far as the first statement, as an exercise in logic:
Assuming that communities segregate themselves in communities, as can be seen in some obviously extreme but valid examples such as China and Mexican towns, not to mention other ethnic 'ghettos', that by definition, if a school 'reflects the community in which they are found' then it follows that it will be, by definition, segregated.

[Don Quixote]

Well, this is a different issue. I belive that there is a mistaken tendency to sue Muslim and Arab as synonymous. They are not. I think this also has to do with a different understanding of what certain things, like religions, as we understand them, are.

I am no expert (my knowledge consists of 2 Islamic Histories classes and the people I know) but Islam, by definition, is a religion, and therefore can not be secular. Arabs, Turks, and Persians, can be.

Our understanding of a religion varies because of how we understand its post-European nationalist movement.

Islam, as it was originally set up, set no distinction between the state and the faith. Not only this but there were originally ethnic inclusions as well, which changed during the different eras, as Arabs were thought to be more Muslim than, say, native Egyptians, or Turks.

Other religions follow different paradigms. Christianity, as I understand it, once institutionalized was the state and the religion, but NOT associated with a particular ethnicity. This changed with the various splits of the nobility from the Church in Europe, pre-renaissances.

You make some good observations. Yes, many people, even within the church, tend to view Arab and Moslem as basically the same thing. This is true to the extent that Islam made 7th century Arabian culture (and language) the epitome of Islamic practice. But it is true that not all Arabs are Moslem (some are Christian), and it is also true that non-Arabs are Moslem (e.g., the largest Moslem nation is Indonesia).

You also rightly point out that Islam cannot be secular, and that it was originally set up to be not only a religion, but also a political system. I would remind you, however, that Islam still operates this way -- if not for modernization and the separation of church and state as one finds in the West, I doubt we would see much pf the tension that is going on in the Islamic world. To go with a secular government is to compromise Islam (I'm fine with this, by the way).

On the other hand, Christianity is not essentially a political system. True, it became institutionalized in 4th century Rome, and persisted as a de facto government into the 19th century, but the church was not created to rule politically. Indeed, one can make the case that becoming strong politically actually weakened the church's message, and vice versa (I understand that the church in China and Saudi Arabia, where it is outlawed, would put ours to shame). And so it is quite improper to say of America (or any nation) that it is a Christian nation, whereas states like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia can quite properly call themselves "Islamic."

[Yonivore]

I wasn't arguing the obvious advantages of the charter system. I was merely pointing out the possible dark side, as it relates to my life, as well as the article. I don't disagree that the Public School system is not ideal.

However, as far as the first statement, as an exercise in logic:
Assuming that communities segregate themselves in communities, as can be seen in some obviously extreme but valid examples such as China and Mexican towns, not to mention other ethnic 'ghettos', that by definition, if a school 'reflects the community in which they are found' then it follows that it will be, by definition, segregated.
I see your point but, so what? I was more talking about forced segregation, government-enforced segregation, etc...

[jacobdrj]

I see your point but, so what? I was more talking about forced segregation, government-enforced segregation, etc...

Ok, I gotcha. Just a misunderstanding.

I will try to be clear, as it is difficult to be on a message board.

I am NOT talking about government segregation. I AM talking about people and their natural tendency to SELF-Segregate. People like hanging out with like people.

It is ironic that in the past, there was state government segregation, that had to be dealt with by federal government desegregation, and now people are segregating themselves by choice, with state funding. T

he reason why the feds didn't simply outlaw segregation is because people are in communities, and nothing really would have changed had they not forced things with busing.

The problem I have with charter schools and vouchers (i.e. state funded by-choice education) is that whatever continuity we have as a country, IMHO is strongly affected by our diverse schools. The school system is not perfect, and true integration may never happen, but at least that common schooling keeps people together, and aware that there are different people around them. By having charter schools/vouchers, almost nobody would pick a school that didn't match their own cliques.

In the Mini case, and the 2 cases that happened in my area, you can see how charter schools can have a dark side, and while they are technically public schools, in reality, they are most likely state sponsored private schools, either respecting the establishment of a religion, or ethnic group.

I have a problem with this.

I also understand that there are charter school successes, but IMHO they aren't worth the negative. There are other ways the school system can be revamped without compromising the thin fabric that allows the USA to be a single contiguous country. Incidentally, Sports is another unifying factor, and serves an important role in that way.

If there was a way to mitigate the downside, perhaps though greater transparency in the administrations, or more watchdog groups, maybe Charters wold be better. But I can't see that happening.

IMHO, a flawed public school system determined by busing is a better option than debateably better charter schools with no diversity at all.

[Yonivore]

Ok, I gotcha. Just a misunderstanding.

I will try to be clear, as it is difficult to be on a message board.

I am NOT talking about government segregation. I AM talking about people and their natural tendency to SELF-Segregate. People like hanging out with like people.

It is ironic that in the past, there was state government segregation, that had to be dealt with by federal government desegregation, and now people are segregating themselves by choice, with state funding. T

he reason why the feds didn't simply outlaw segregation is because people are in communities, and nothing really would have changed had they not forced things with busing.

The problem I have with charter schools and vouchers (i.e. state funded by-choice education) is that whatever continuity we have as a country, IMHO is strongly affected by our diverse schools. The school system is not perfect, and true integration may never happen, but at least that common schooling keeps people together, and aware that there are different people around them. By having charter schools/vouchers, almost nobody would pick a school that didn't match their own cliques.

In the Mini case, and the 2 cases that happened in my area, you can see how charter schools can have a dark side, and while they are technically public schools, in reality, they are most likely state sponsored private schools, either respecting the establishment of a religion, or ethnic group.

I have a problem with this.

I also understand that there are charter school successes, but IMHO they aren't worth the negative. There are other ways the school system can be revamped without compromising the thin fabric that allows the USA to be a single contiguous country. Incidentally, Sports is another unifying factor, and serves an important role in that way.

If there was a way to mitigate the downside, perhaps though greater transparency in the administrations, or more watchdog groups, maybe Charters wold be better. But I can't see that happening.

IMHO, a flawed public school system determined by busing is a better option than debateably better charter schools with no diversity at all.
I'm fine with self-segregation.

So long as the government doesn't discriminate, people should be free to associate with whomever they want.

[smeagol]

i agree with yonivore

Well, this is something you don't read everyday :lol

[RandomGuy]

Holy shit, it looks like a discussion broke out in the middle of the normal brawl.

[Yonivore]

we agree on gun rights
I'll bet we agree on the decriminalization of drugs too.

[xrayzebra]

Holy shit, it looks like a discussion broke out in the middle of the normal brawl.


Please standby, our engineers are aware of the problem and
working on it. The problem should be corrected shortly.
Thank you for your patience.

[RandomGuy]

I can't speak to this case, but I can give you a similar anecdote that happened with my family:

I went to a private K-12 school in the Metro Detroit area (suburbs) for a couple of years after moving to the area. It got prohibitively expensive. Luckily, Michigan's Charter School program was in full force, and I found a local one that was right up my alley, focusing on science, math, and engineering, taught by university professors.

The first semester was great. A bunch of kids like myself who wanted something better, and couldn't afford a private school got something close to home, right up their alley, on a university campus, no less.
By the 2nd semester, however, things began to change. The headmaster was fired... for keeping students out of the charter school, for, get this: intelligence discrimination. He was kicking kids out that shouldn't have been there, like refugee looser students who thought the new school would be a picnic. There was obviously something else going on. But with the firing of the headmaster, 300 new students were admitted, mid semester. No new faculty was added. Most of the new students were minorities, and almost all of them were refugees, coming to the school for the wrong reasons. By the beginning of the 3rd semester, it was painfully obvious that the model of the school would not last. Incidents were happening between the HS students and the university students, and a year after I graduated, the charter school moved to another campus in Dearborn.

What was happening was that each kid was worth $6000 a head, and the more students/less faculty, the more the head honchos made. Not to mention that with a good salesman in an automotive state, that selling sponsors on the school was lucrative in itself.

But that is just the beginning of the story. Back to the private school I left, due to financial reasons: That school moved to a much needed new building. The state had bought the old building, and turned it into a charter school. Keep in mind, a charter school is a public school with voluntary enrollment, as an alternative to conventional public schools. My dad, being the curious guy that he was, and with a son in another charter school, decided to pay the new charter school a visit, just to see what the new one was about. Long story short, it was all African American. Not a single face of any other ethnicity. What had occurred was a self-segregation. Certainly, they would not have refused someone of another ethnic group, but I would imagine it would not be a comfortable situation.

What the charter system does, in effect, is it undoes what busing tried to accomplish back in the 60's. It is publicly funded private institutions. In effect, you are eliminating an aspect of diversity that students may normally have early in their lives. Even with the 'Lunch Table Effect', there still is more exposure than probably happens on most charters (uncorroborated, and pure speculation) and that is completely neutralized, and done on the taxpayer dollar. I would imagine that school vouchers would have the same effect. As a purely selfish point of view, I would vote for vouchers, so that my siblings and perhaps children could more easily go to my private school of choice, but as someone looking at the 'Big Picture', I can't in good conscience promote either institution.

As far as this situation in Mini goes, maybe it is a de facto Islamic school. But that is what the charter system allows for, and the only way to get rid of it, is to get rid of the charter system itself.


But hey, a the profit motive solves everything, right?

[RandomGuy]

Honestly, if the school from the OP is a religious school the funding should be pulled and given back, just like any other.

The government has no business subsidizing religion of any sort.

[jacobdrj]

But hey, a the profit motive solves everything, right?


How do you mean?

[RandomGuy]

How do you mean?

I mean that there are some things that have no "free-market" solutions.

In this case in particular, the rush for money from a "head count" perspective ruined what had the potential to be a good school.

[jacobdrj]

Oh, yeah.

I actually had a conversation with the fired headmaster, as he works at the university I now attend. There was a lot more shady stuff going on such as double counting too.

From my limited experience, it seems to me that there is no free market solution as it isn't a free market problem. The problem is that the family structure is what actually determines, to a large degree, how well a student does in school. It takes a real, often painful, commitment from the parents to truly have their children succeed.

While the public school system is not ideal, it does provide a corridor, if properly managed by the parents, to have success in life. There are no guarantees, but there is more of an opportunity there than would be there were there no public education at all.

[Extra Stout]

From my limited experience, it seems to me that there is no free market solution as it isn't a free market problem. The problem is that the family structure is what actually determines, to a large degree, how well a student does in school. It takes a real, often painful, commitment from the parents to truly have their children succeed.

While the public school system is not ideal, it does provide a corridor, if properly managed by the parents, to have success in life. There are no guarantees, but there is more of an opportunity there than would be there were there no public education at all.
Our culture straddles the line between hedonism and nihilism. Why would something like education matter? Who cares how your kids turn out? If they suffer for it, and I choose not to care, what difference does it make? How does that affect my own pleasure? I can just use the money I would have spent for their college on myself, which is better anyway.

[Extra Stout]

The hedonist/nihilist viewpoint is useful for understanding many issues including this one. To wit:

1) American values don't matter
2) The future doesn't matter
3) Muslims might hurt me if I criticize or challenge them

So, why not let them have their own madrassa?

On the other hand,

4) If the school loses its subsidy, maybe my taxes will go down, or the government will spend it for something I want

So, maybe it is worth fighting this.

[jacobdrj]

Extra Stout, where are you coming from? I am not sure I am following the relevance of your post in connection to the part you quoted from me.

[RandomGuy]

Our culture straddles the line between hedonism and nihilism. Why would something like education matter? Who cares how your kids turn out? If they suffer for it, and I choose not to care, what difference does it make? How does that affect my own pleasure? I can just use the money I would have spent for their college on myself, which is better anyway.

The Libertardian viewpoint in a nutshell.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

We have no vested interest in each other, and every person's actions magically have no effect on anybody else's...