Will people shut up about Dirk choking?

[TDfan2007]

He has one bad series last year and everybody writes him off. Complete bullshit. He was amazing in the 03 playoffs before he got injured, played well in 04, 05, and a complete beast in 06 (50+ point game against the suns and he raped the Spurs all series long including that...fucking layup).

A lot of you guys on this board are simply haters. Calling Dirk a choker is like calling Manu a choker, probably even dumber.

Man up and show a great offensive player some respect.

Seriously, I don't know how many more game-winners/deciders he'll have to hit until people get it.

Instead of the hating we need to worry about our own team that can't do shit in the 4th quarter of games.

[GuerillaBlack]

That was a pretty awesome shot he made.

[ludda]

I agree. The whole "Dirk is a choker" has become over the top to the point where it is completely ridiculous.

Dirk faded like a soft woman in the GS series, but he has been clutch many times for the Mavs.

[GuerillaBlack]

Let's see how he comes through in the playoffs.

[The Nba Is Rigged]

No matter what Dirk does he is a choker, just yesterday I was having a argument with some lakers fans that Dirk wasn't a choker of course they all forced the issue that he was a choker. If Dirk misses a gamewinning shot people start fuckin threads about how much of a choker he is, if he makes a gamewinning shot people make up some excuse. I'm sick of the shit but I give props to you for being realistic. This is why I can get along with most Spurs Fans. Very classy of you I really appreciate this TDFAN2007 :king

[endrity]

Next time Dirk misses a game winner, even if it's with .3 seconds left and he has the ball at half court, people will say the same thing, "he's a choker". It's selective memory with him, once the media has portrayed an image of him being a choker.

It is unbeliavable how many lesser players get much much more positive rep than Dirk, eventhough they have had maybe half the career that this man has.

Unless Dirk wins a ring, and let's just that few players have that honor especially in our era of Duncan & Shaq, he will always be considered a choker and guys like AI, Melo, Arenas, KG, TMac (well he gets a lot of undeserved crap too), LeBron, Nash eventhough they haven't won it all themselves either will be "tough", "gritty", "intense" and whatever else.

[endrity]

http://www.mavsmoneyball.com/story/2008/4/8/2121/85405

by the way, you should all read this great piece on Dirk

[atxrocker]

fuck you, OP. dirk has zero heart and is soft. don't cry because people call him what he is, a perennial unclutch loser. fuck dirk. cry me a goddamn river.

[Amarelooms]

fuck you, OP. dirk has zero heart and is soft. don't cry because people call him what he is, a perennial unclutch loser. fuck dirk. cry me a goddamn river.

You are a douche bag...fuck off idiot :elephant

[mavs>spurs2]

fuck you, OP. dirk has zero heart and is soft. don't cry because people call him what he is, a perennial unclutch loser. fuck dirk. cry me a goddamn river.

Dude you're probably hands down the dumbest poster on this board, I don't think anyone gives a fuck what you think. 03, 04, 06 playoffs are proof that Dirk is clutch, and someone posted a link a while back showing that Dirk has the best 4th quarter numbers in the league this year. Seriously you probably think Kevin Martin is a superstar, right? :lol

[The Nba Is Rigged]

fuck you, OP. dirk has zero heart and is soft. don't cry because people call him what he is, a perennial unclutch loser. fuck dirk. cry me a goddamn river.

Shut up, why should a Kings fan be talking any shit?

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/3271/10horry1600wn2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[mavs>spurs2]

Lol this guy really thinks his shitty opinions count. He's never had a decent take since he showed up on this board. I think that post deserves a:

America, eatin' my lunch from a single bowl in my parents basement, where I'm livin'. Happy Birthday, I'm forty-three.

Don't want to waste those precious calories...chewin'. Jesus come move my jaw for me, help me get my sloppy food down my throat

[Findog]

He has one bad series last year and everybody writes him off. Complete bullshit. He was amazing in the 03 playoffs before he got injured, played well in 04, 05, and a complete beast in 06 (50+ point game against the suns and he raped the Spurs all series long including that...fucking layup).

A lot of you guys on this board are simply haters. Calling Dirk a choker is like calling Manu a choker, probably even dumber.

Man up and show a great offensive player some respect.

Seriously, I don't know how many more game-winners/deciders he'll have to hit until people get it.

Instead of the hating we need to worry about our own team that can't do shit in the 4th quarter of games.


:toast

[Findog]

fuck you, OP. dirk has zero heart and is soft. don't cry because people call him what he is, a perennial unclutch loser. fuck dirk. cry me a goddamn river.

America, eatin' my lunch from a single bowl in my parents basement, where I'm livin'. Happy Birthday, I'm forty-three.

Don't want to waste those precious calories...chewin'. Jesus come move my jaw for me, help me get my sloppy food down my throat

[dav4463]

Dirk hit a game-winner tonight. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes!

[mavs>spurs2]

Dirk hit a game-winner tonight. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes!
Too bad this is far from his first game winner, but being such a knowledgable Spur fan you would already know this right?

[Stabbin' Cabin]

Dirk hit a game-winner tonight. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes!

The sun shines on a dog's ass every now and then.

[Findog]

Dirk hit a game-winner tonight. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes!

This is for you Spurs fan:

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/n_NEzPfVOEs&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/n_NEzPfVOEs&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

America, eatin' my lunch from a single bowl in my parents basement, where I'm livin'. Happy Birthday, I'm forty-three.

Don't want to waste those precious calories...chewin'. Jesus come move my jaw for me, help me get my sloppy food down my throat

[The Nba Is Rigged]

The sun shines on a dog's ass every now and then.

Shutup Prick, Dirk dropped 50 on you fools in the 06 playoffs, How about on sunday when Dirk hit the dagger in the final 30 seconds and what did Stoudemire do on the other end of the floor? brick both freethrows. Stfu you piece of shit

[MrChug]

This is for you Spurs fan:

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/n_NEzPfVOEs&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/n_NEzPfVOEs&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

America, eatin' my lunch from a single bowl in my parents basement, where I'm livin'. Happy Birthday, I'm forty-three.

Don't want to waste those precious calories...chewin'. Jesus come move my jaw for me, help me get my sloppy food down my throat

That shot led directly to the promise land didn't it Fin?

[Findog]

The sun shines on a dog's ass every now and then.

This is for you Suns fan:

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/4Vy0kI4SMvo&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4Vy0kI4SMvo&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

America, eatin' my lunch from a single bowl in my parents basement, where I'm livin'. Happy Birthday, I'm forty-three.

Don't want to waste those precious calories...chewin'. Jesus come move my jaw for me, help me get my sloppy food down my throat

[Findog]

That shot led directly to the promise land didn't it Fin?

You're cool, MrChug, but don't you think it's a little ironic for Spurs fans to call out Dirk as not being clutch? Considering he sent them home with clutch play?

[ElNono]

He will choke again in the playoffs... He always does...

[Findog]

He will choke again in the playoffs... He always does...

America, eatin' my lunch from a single bowl in my parents basement, where I'm livin'. Happy Birthday, I'm forty-three.

Don't want to waste those precious calories...chewin'. Jesus come move my jaw for me, help me get my sloppy food down my throat

[MrChug]

You're cool, MrChug, but don't you think it's a little ironic for Spurs fans to call out Dirk as not being clutch? Considering he sent them home with clutch play?

Ironic? I'm not sure I would characterize it as that so much, at least the way this Spur fan feels. I certainly have never categorized Dirk, himself as a choker. The Mavs however? Maybe.

With that said however, my theory is fairly simple. If I run a sales business (and I do) and my people can't sell shit, who get's the blame? Me. I'm the leader. Dirk's the Mavs leader whether he wants to accept it or not. It's simple-it goes with the territory. He get's the glory and the ridicule. He's gotta go down with the ship if it sinks. It's fair enough IMHO.

[Findog]

Ironic? I'm not sure I would characterize it as that so much, at least the way this Spur fan feels.

Well, my theory is fairly simple. If I run a sales business (and I do) and my people can't sell shit, who get's the blame? Me. I'm the leader. Dirks' the Mavs leader whether he wants to accept it or not. It's simple-it goes with the territory. He get's the glory and the ridicule. He's gotta go down with the ship if it sinks. It's fair enough IMHO.

I just think it's ridiculous to go to one end of the spectrum or another on Dirk. It's ridiculous to label him a closer, and it's equally stupid to call him a choker.

[MrChug]

I just think it's ridiculous to go to one end of the spectrum or another on Dirk. It's ridiculous to label him a closer, and it's equally stupid to call him a choker.

Updated my post..^^^

Yeah, but I guess the deal is SOMEONE HAS TO TAKE THE BLAME. It's always the leader. Even the most balanced champion in recent memory (Pistons) still had a leader. Chauncey gladly took much of the glory. The way I believe he took the blame the next year (at least he claimed to blame himself). He took the glory in victory, he took the shit in defeat.

[Findog]

Updated my post..^^^

I think we're pretty much on the same page now.

[ludda]

I think Dirk is one of the most maligned stars in the NBA. Yes he deserves most of it, but he has still led the Mavs to the finals which is more than what most stars can say. And if you look at the roster, he isn't playing with any closers or bonafide all stars.

I think Dirk is soft but not to the extent people make him out to be and the whole choking label on him has gotten way too far-fetched. The way some people make him out to be, you'd think the Mavs were a below .500 team.

Nevertheless, the label will not be shed until he does something significant in the postseason this year.

[ElNono]

America, eatin' my lunch from a single bowl in my parents basement, where I'm livin'. Happy Birthday, I'm forty-three.

Don't want to waste those precious calories...chewin'. Jesus come move my jaw for me, help me get my sloppy food down my throat

Make sure you don't choke while downing that KFC bowl, you know, like Dirk...

[MrChug]

Nevertheless, the label will not be shed until he does something significant in the postseason this year.

I don't think anyone can disagree with that. Fin? (oh yah, updated the last post too :bang )

[monosylab1k]

I don't think Dirk is a choker, but he sure likes to miss a hell of a lot of free throws at the end of tight games. You can almost count on him going 1 for 2 at some point in the last 5 minutes of a close one. He's had plenty of clutch moments but that free throw shit worries me, he's been doing it for years.

[monosylab1k]

fuck you, OP. dirk has zero heart and is soft. don't cry because people call him what he is, a perennial unclutch loser. fuck dirk. cry me a goddamn river.
:lmao came back from a high ankle sprain faster than humanly possible, and hits a gamewinning 3. you really have a great case :td

[Findog]

I don't think anyone can disagree with that. Fin? (oh yah, updated the last post too :bang )

Dirk has never shied from taking the blame. He never points fingers. I know he yelled at JET on the court after Nash hit that three, but he does NOT call out teammates in the media. He manned up and took the blame for GS.

[mavsfan1000]

I think that those continue to call Dirk a choker are racist. He is definitely clutch.

[MrChug]

Dirk has never shied from taking the blame. He never points fingers. I know he yelled at JET on the court after Nash hit that three, but he does NOT call out teammates in the media. He manned up and took the blame for GS.

Actually...that might be pretty inaccurate. I remember sound bytes on the radio and the Chuckster publicly calling Dirk out for talking about the "team effort" and using the word "team" with regard to performance right after the GS series man. Now he may have come back and tried to do some damage control after his first few interviews, but he definitely did NOT want to be thrown under the bus after the series.

I'll look for a link, but I remember it very vividly.

[Findog]

Actually...that might be pretty inaccurate. I remember sound bytes on the radio and the Chuckster publicly calling Dirk out for talking about the "team effort" and using the word "team" with regard to performance after the GS series man. I'll look for a link, but I remember it very vividly.

Whatever he said was mild, nothing like Peyton Manning complaining about "protection problems."

[monosylab1k]

Dirk did call out Dampier for playing like a puss....but that was entirely justified. And he's also matured since then.

[DazedAndConfused]

So what? Sometimes players deserved to be called out in the media. Shaq was a fat arrogant piece of shit and Kobe called his ass out in the media, and you know what it was the right thing to do. Shaq was rehabbing on company time and waltzing through the regular season while his teammates were working their asses off trying to get them into the playoffs.

[Findog]

So what? Sometimes players deserved to be called out in the media. Shaq was a fat arrogant piece of shit and Kobe called his ass out in the media, and you know what it was the right thing to do. Shaq was rehabbing on company time and waltzing through the regular season while his teammates were working their asses off trying to get them into the playoffs.

I agree basically. As long as you're not ducking blame you yourself are due, then you have a leg to stand on to criticize a teammate.

[DazedAndConfused]

I think Mr. Chug said it best........somebody on DAL had to be blamed for their playoff failures. Dirk was the leader and all the criticism got piled onto him no matter how unfair it was.

Anyone who can still call Dirk soft after watching him basically play on one leg is just a hater IMHO.

[Killakobe81]

Hey im a Laker fan and was talking to another big laker fan recently and we were giving The Diggler his props BEFORE last night's game ...that OT classic against Kobe & Lakers in OT proved he is clutch...he killed the suns and the Jazz who just both whiped your precious Spurs. Dirk is an MVP he just had two bad series at the WORST time ... he is a top 5 PF in a league full of good ones

[Udrihlooms]

Dirk is a warrior. A really great player.

Unfortunately, he's not a showboat, so it's hard to sell him. He doesn't have the swagger, his killer's instinct is at best, inconsistent. Nevertheless, outside the Spurs, he must be my favorite player.

Yes, I'm dreaming we can trade Horry+Vaughn+draft picks for him so he can wear black and silver. It's crazy I know but who would ever thought of Kwame for Gasol??? :pctoss

[dav4463]

Too bad this is far from his first game winner, but being such a knowledgable Spur fan you would already know this right?

He hits a few here and there. I wish he would stop flopping and falling trying to draw a foul everytime he drives to the basket. I wish he would stop crying so much when he doesn't get the call. Otherwise, Dirk's OK, I wish he played for the Spurs.

[m33p0]

i haven't seen him back down from a potential game-winning shot.

[dirk4mvp]

fuck you, OP. dirk has zero heart and is soft. don't cry because people call him what he is, a perennial unclutch loser. fuck dirk. cry me a goddamn river.


atxcocker am cry


:cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry

[DieMrBond]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-080411
Dirk's Winner In Perspective
By Elias Sports Bureau
Dirk Nowitzki hit a tie-breaking three-pointer with 0.9 seconds to play, giving the Mavericks a 97-94 win over the Jazz. During his NBA career, Nowitzki has made only five of 24 potential game-tying or go-ahead field-goal attempts in the last five seconds of regulation or of any overtime period (2-for-11 on three-pointers).

20.8% ... Just saying.

[endrity]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-080411
Dirk's Winner In Perspective
By Elias Sports Bureau
Dirk Nowitzki hit a tie-breaking three-pointer with 0.9 seconds to play, giving the Mavericks a 97-94 win over the Jazz. During his NBA career, Nowitzki has made only five of 24 potential game-tying or go-ahead field-goal attempts in the last five seconds of regulation or of any overtime period (2-for-11 on three-pointers).

20.8% ... Just saying.


You realize that shots within 5 seconds are usually hurried up shots. I don't think there are many guys with much better stats to be honest.

The guys that missed the most 'clutch' shots last year according to 82games.com were Arenas and Billups, yet we know them as clutch. Dirk meanwhile led the league in 4th quarter scoring.

This means that it's all about the image that people wanna portrey you by. Jordan missed a ton of these 'clutch' shots, but because he hit a few big ones he is now remember forever as one of the most clutch players ever.

To be honest, it's amazing that Dirk had to go through this run to sort of improve his image. Guys doing half of this would be getting much bigger credit. But because it's Dirk he is held to a different standard, just like the one ESPN showed. And I am sure that next time he misses a shot people will be all over him again.

[remingtonbo2001]

I must have missed the memo.

America, eatin' my lunch from a single bowl in my parents basement, where I'm livin'. Happy Birthday, I'm forty-three.

Don't want to waste those precious calories...chewin'. Jesus come move my jaw for me, help me get my sloppy food down my throat

[The Nba Is Rigged]

I don't think Dirk is a choker, but he sure likes to miss a hell of a lot of free throws at the end of tight games. You can almost count on him going 1 for 2 at some point in the last 5 minutes of a close one. He's had plenty of clutch moments but that free throw shit worries me, he's been doing it for years.

I actually remember when he missed a big free throw with 30 seconds left in game 3 of the finals, when they asked why he missed the big freethrow he said he was trying to shoot the freethrow perfectly and that he always tries to shoot end of game freethrows perfectly. I think that is exactly why he misses big freethrows, he has to shoot them the same way he has been shooting them all game.

[TeyshaBlue]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-080411
Dirk's Winner In Perspective
By Elias Sports Bureau
Dirk Nowitzki hit a tie-breaking three-pointer with 0.9 seconds to play, giving the Mavericks a 97-94 win over the Jazz. During his NBA career, Nowitzki has made only five of 24 potential game-tying or go-ahead field-goal attempts in the last five seconds of regulation or of any overtime period (2-for-11 on three-pointers).

20.8% ... Just saying.

Meaningless stat. No context. Where's the rest of the NBA in this scenario? Dirk could be #1....doubt it, but you dont know and neither do I.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

you mav "fans" make me laugh. now everyone here in dallas are sporting their mavs gear. you guys beat 3 winning teams in 15-17 games and you're on top of the world. thanks for the laugh.

[monosylab1k]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-080411
Dirk's Winner In Perspective
By Elias Sports Bureau
Dirk Nowitzki hit a tie-breaking three-pointer with 0.9 seconds to play, giving the Mavericks a 97-94 win over the Jazz. During his NBA career, Nowitzki has made only five of 24 potential game-tying or go-ahead field-goal attempts in the last five seconds of regulation or of any overtime period (2-for-11 on three-pointers).

20.8% ... Just saying.
So he isn't good at throwing up desperation 3's........why doesn't someone tell me who the fuck is?

[Magic_Johnson]

Dirk is called a choker because of the us media.
I don't read or watch us media, i just watch games I don't understand why everyone call him a choker.
He's top 3-4 in the league the last 3 years.
He's been a better franchise player than kobe, KG, nash ...

I don't like the Mavs, but if they win a ring I'll be happy for Dirk (not this year, I want a repeat)

[The Nba Is Rigged]

you mav "fans" make me laugh. now everyone here in dallas are sporting their mavs gear. you guys beat 3 winning teams in 15-17 games and you're on top of the world. thanks for the laugh.

Its still better than getting blown out by the Jazz and then getting blown out by the suns, thanks for the laugh.

[Findog]

http://freedarko.blogspot.com/2008/04/live-it.html#comments

I post as "Zeke" on freefucksticko. Some of these comments are hilarious. Warrior fan has sand in his vagina.

[Cry Havoc]

This means that it's all about the image that people wanna portrey you by. Jordan missed a ton of these 'clutch' shots, but because he hit a few big ones he is now remember forever as one of the most clutch players ever.

This is such a huge understatement that it really doesn't deserve to be answered, but here goes. Jordan is more than clutch. Yes, he missed some game winners. He was also practically UNBEATABLE in the playoffs. He was a guy who dominated the league without a verifiable center. His career AVERAGE in the playoffs: 33.4 PPG (#1 all-time) on 48.7% from the field, 6.4 boards and 5.7 assists per game with 376 career steals and 158 blocks. He scored over 30 ppg and still had a 2-1 assist to turnover ratio.

More esoterically, he was a player that could reach into his opponents chest and pull out their heart in the few instances where they were exposed and weak. He commanded and dominated the game from both sides of the floor. Perhaps most importantly, he NEVER took his foot off the gas, and if a guy was bigger than him or faster, he still outplayed them on sheer will to win. He also has 6 trophies.

But you're right. They call him clutch because he "hit a few game winners".

Maybe they call him clutch because he played nearly every second of every playoff game like his team was down 2 and needed a big play to win? Just maybe because he dominated the entire NBA for the duration of his career and took a franchise from ringless to one of the all-time great NBA teams?


To be honest, it's amazing that Dirk had to go through this run to sort of improve his image. Guys doing half of this would be getting much bigger credit. But because it's Dirk he is held to a different standard, just like the one ESPN showed. And I am sure that next time he misses a shot people will be all over him again.

Of course he's held to a different standard. He's a professional athlete and a SUPERSTAR. He's a former MVP. What the fuck, do you want him to be held to the same standard as Shawn Bradley? Trajan Langdon? Are these the people you want Dirk's mettle to be compared against? That's the DEFINITION of being a team leader, an MVP, a star in the NBA. If Duncan had never won a title but still had the same numbers he does, don't you think people would be calling him out, too? Hell, people STILL call him out and say he's soft or that he doesn't dominate games.

Dirk is a fantastic player. Any team would love to have his versatility and offensive prowess. I would not think to label him a choker, per se. That is to say that he doesn't characteristically shy away from big moments in games. That said, Dirk's performance against Golden State last year was nothing short of despicable. I saw no trace of a leader in him. I saw no desire to win. He played the whole series like he was just scared of the GS defenders, like a prize fighter who's been hit hard and is just holding on, trying to make it to the decision without being knocked out. Dirk took a 67 win team and dive-bombed them into the ground.

Was it all his fault? No, but he's the leader. Even IF he went off for 28 and 14 for that entire series, it's still on him that they lost. That's what being a leader means. The entire Mavs team last year was intimidated into losing to a good (not great) GS team that later got destroyed by the Jazz.

None of this means he's a choker. What remains to be seen is whether Dirk is a true winner at heart. And that's only going to come with a ring. He has one of the best PGs in the league, an all-star in Josh Howard, and some solid role players around him. At the very least, he has to LEAD the Mavs out of the West. And I'm just not sure I see that happening from Dirk.

[Findog]

More esoterically, he was a player that could reach into his opponents chest and pull out their heart in the few instances where they were exposed and weak. He commanded and dominated the game from both sides of the floor. Perhaps most importantly, he NEVER took his foot off the gas, and if a guy was bigger than him or faster, he still outplayed them on sheer will to win. He also has 6 trophies.

Dude, nobody compares well in the clutch department to Jordan.



Dirk is a fantastic player. Any team would love to have his versatility and offensive prowess. I would not think to label him a choker, per se. That is to say that he doesn't characteristically shy away from big moments in games. That said, Dirk's performance against Golden State last year was nothing short of despicable. I saw no trace of a leader in him. I saw no desire to win. He played the whole series like he was just scared of the GS defenders, like a prize fighter who's been hit hard and is just holding on, trying to make it to the decision without being knocked out. Dirk took a 67 win team and dive-bombed them into the ground.

He was hobbling around on bone spurs and Avery couldn't play bigball because Dampier had a torn rotator cuff. The Spurs had the luxury of shutting Tony Parker down earlier this year with bone spurs because he was ineffective playing with them, didn't have his normal explosiveness and it wasn't April. Dallas didn't have that luxury, it was the playoffs and they weren't doing anything without him. And for that you call him 'despicable"?

:rolleyes



What remains to be seen is whether Dirk is a true winner at heart.

:rolleyes Of course he is. He's playing on a high ankle sprain that would keep him out if this were November because he's not satisfied with going into the lottery and drafting Ty Lawson. How much more heart and grit does he have to demonstrate?


And that's only going to come with a ring.

Well, then, among actives, I guess only Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal, Chauncey Billups, Kobe Bryant and Dwyane Wade are winners. Consistently being among the elite teams in the league and being a top-10 players means you aren't a winner "at heart," whatever that means.

I agree he won't stop getting shit heaped on him until he wins a ring, but I would contend that the majority of criticism leveled against him is unfair.

[DaDakota]

Any player that takes the clutch shot is going to fail more than make.....that doesn't make them a choker.

Dirk is hardly a choker, but he is hardly a superstar either.

To me he is on Tmac's level a great STAR player but not a Superstar.

DD

[DazedAndConfused]

Dirk is definitely a cut above T-Mac. He has produced consistently over the years, the only thing T-Mac has done consistently is get injured and force trades.

[DaDakota]

Dirk is definitely a cut above T-Mac. He has produced consistently over the years, the only thing T-Mac has done consistently is get injured and force trades.

Hmmm......I wonder if you had a choice in a draft whom would you take...Tmac or Dirk?

I know Tmac has struggled in the first round, but the reason for that is not him...he has averaged around 30ppg in the playoffs, but has had some real questionable talent around him.

Dirk has had better teams....

Dirk is a far better shooter, but Tmac is a far better passer and puts more pressure on defenses.....

I would take Tmac.....

DD

[Findog]

I would take Dirk. He's not as injury-prone.

[DaDakota]

I would take Dirk. He's not as injury-prone.

Both have missed about the same amount of time this year.

DD

[Magic_Johnson]

Any player that takes the clutch shot is going to fail more than make.....that doesn't make them a choker.

Dirk is hardly a choker, but he is hardly a superstar either.

To me he is on Tmac's level a great STAR player but not a Superstar.

DD

Dirk is a superstar. He carried the mavs in the finals with no allstar with him
You can't compare him to tmac who haven't done anything in the playoff

[DaDakota]

Dirk is a superstar. He carried the mavs in the finals with no allstar with him
You can't compare him to tmac who haven't done anything in the playoff


It depends upon your definition of a Superstar.....

I don't think there are very many in the NBA right now.

Kobe, Duncan, Nash, Lebron

To me that may be it.....there are several STAR player, even hall of famers, but that doesn't make them a Superstar to me.

When I think Superstar I think all time great, Magic, Jordan, Bird, Hakeem...

DD

[Magic_Johnson]

It depends upon your definition of a Superstar.....

I don't think there are very many in the NBA right now.

Kobe, Duncan, Nash, Lebron

To me that may be it.....there are several STAR player, even hall of famers, but that doesn't make them a Superstar to me.

When I think Superstar I think all time great, Magic, Jordan, Bird, Hakeem...

DD

if Dirk isn't a superstar, neither is Nash

[DaDakota]

Magic,

I think Nash is better than Dirk and believe that if Cuban had kept them together the Mavs probably would have won at least 1 championship by now.

DD

[Findog]

Both have missed about the same amount of time this year.

DD

Over the course of their careers, Tmac is far more fragile

[stretch]

Magic,

I think Nash is better than Dirk and believe that if Cuban had kept them together the Mavs probably would have won at least 1 championship by now.

DD
lol, haterade

[Findog]

Magic,

I think Nash is better than Dirk and believe that if Cuban had kept them together the Mavs probably would have won at least 1 championship by now.

DD

No, they would've kept losing in the second round of the playoffs because they wouldn't have had a guy who could defend the middle. And Nash would've continued to play pick and pop and the two-man game with all of the jumpshooters in Dallas. In Phoenix he's gotten Amare and Marion all those easy layups and dunks in transition.

Why was Tyson Chandler such a big back of suck in Chicago with Kirk Hinrich at PG but all of the sudden he looks like an actual NBA player with Chris Paul feeding him for alley-oops?

It's false to think Dallas would've gotten from Nash what he's done with Phoenix. And Nash hasn't gone as far in Phoenix surrounded by far more talent than what Dirk has around him in Dallas, which is considerable collection of talent but not equal to what Phoenix has.

[Indazone]

but but but...Cuban went out and got the Nash equivalent in Kidd. Oh but that's right...Kidd is overrated isn't he. Nash shoots lights out compared to Kidd, sees the floor better and runs the team like a real PG. Kidd...Meah!

[Cry Havoc]

Dude, nobody compares well in the clutch department to Jordan.

I was responding to a quote from endrity about Jordan being clutch because he "hit a few game winners."




He was hobbling around on bone spurs and Avery couldn't play bigball because Dampier had a torn rotator cuff. The Spurs had the luxury of shutting Tony Parker down earlier this year with bone spurs because he was ineffective playing with them, didn't have his normal explosiveness and it wasn't April. Dallas didn't have that luxury, it was the playoffs and they weren't doing anything without him. And for that you call him 'despicable"?

So if that was the case, and the reason they lost in the playoffs last year, why did they make such a huge trade? A 67 win team and a healthy Dirk this year doesn't instill the Mavs FO with enough confidence that they'll win when he's healthy? Instead they bring in another player to essentially provide leadership.



Well, then, among actives, I guess only Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal, Chauncey Billups, Kobe Bryant and Dwyane Wade are winners. Consistently being among the elite teams in the league and being a top-10 players means you aren't a winner "at heart," whatever that means.

I agree he won't stop getting shit heaped on him until he wins a ring, but I would contend that the majority of criticism leveled against him is unfair.

Dirk has had a team with sufficient talent to win the title. If you beat the Spurs in the playoffs, there should be no question that you can and SHOULD go on to win a championship. KG gets criticized and he had only one team that was even in the realm of gaining a title. Now that Dirk has Kidd on his team, that's a team that should win a title, even in the loaded West.

[Humble Billy Hayes]

If you beat the Spurs in the playoffs, there should be no question that you can and SHOULD go on to win a championship.
It's always about the Spurs, even when it isn't.

[Findog]

Nash shoots lights out compared to Kidd correct


sees the floor better No, they're equal here


and runs the team like a real PG. so does Kidd


Kidd...Meah!

Nash's defense...Blah!

[mavsfan1000]

so does Kidd

Kidd doesn't break down defenses like Nash does in the half court. Most of Kidd's talent is on the fastbreak.

[Findog]

So if that was the case, and the reason they lost in the playoffs last year, why did they make such a huge trade? A 67 win team and a healthy Dirk this year doesn't instill the Mavs FO with enough confidence that they'll win when he's healthy?

They didn't win 67 games this year. The league is deeper, and the improvement of Portland, Golden State, Denver, Utah and Portland has to come from somewhere. It came at the expense of less wins for Dallas, San Antonio and Phoenix.


Instead they bring in another player to essentially provide leadership.

I think the trade was partly a response to what LA and Phoenix did, plus the fact that the Spurs were still going to be around.




Dirk has had a team with sufficient talent to win the title. If you beat the Spurs in the playoffs, there should be no question that you can and SHOULD go on to win a championship.

That shorts what Miami did in the Finals. Wade was unstoppable. Riley outcoached Avery, he made some great adjustments that Avery couldn't counter. And considering that they won three games by a total of six points, that really falls into the category of could've gone either way. Dirk showed up and came to play in the final two games after it was deadlocked. He deserves some criticism, but it's just cliche speak to put everything on him. He doesn't win or lose games by himself.


KG gets criticized and he had only one team that was even in the realm of gaining a title. Now that Dirk has Kidd on his team, that's a team that should win a title, even in the loaded West

I don't think they're better than Boston. That's just facile. The Kidd trade isn't a slam dunk, it's just a reasonable gamble.

[Findog]

Kidd doesn't break down defenses like Nash does in the half court. Most of Kidd's talent is on the fastbreak.

Yeah, sure he doesn't. I'll tell you what else he doesn't do: get raped consistently on defense like Nash.

[mavsfan1000]

Yeah, sure he doesn't. I'll tell you what else he doesn't do: get raped consistently on defense like Nash.
I would take Nash over Kidd any day of the week. Nash's offense is clearly better because teams have to respect his shooting on the run. Kidd needs to be stationary to shoot and not pressured. This ability Nash allows him to break down defenses so much easier because you will get burned if you go under the pick.

[Findog]

I would take Nash over Kidd any day of the week. Nash's offense is clearly better because teams have to respect his shooting on the run. Kidd needs to be stationary to shoot and not pressured. This ability Nash allows him to break down defenses so much easier because you will get burned if you go under the pick.

I would give Nash an edge on offense because of his outside shooting, but their ability to run the break and break down a defense is equal. Kidd can't guard CP3, Deron Williams or Tony Parker, but nobody can, including Devin Harris, but he is absolutely a HUGE upgrade at defense over Nash.

[The Nba Is Rigged]

http://freedarko.blogspot.com/2008/04/live-it.html#comments

I post as "Zeke" on freefucksticko. Some of these comments are hilarious. Warrior fan has sand in his vagina.

I saw your comments, they were excellent, I know what you said is probably killing those warrior fans inside. :toast

[endrity]

Cry Havoc, my point about Jordan is that even he, the GOAT, missed a bunch of game winners. Let's not even talk about Kobe, Billups, LeBron. They all have missed plenty. Yet any time Dirk misses one, it's all about choking, eventhough he too has made plenty game winners and pressure shots.

And that is the double standard I am talking about. It's unbeliavable that players that have yet to make the finals or even sniff the MVP like Melo, Arenas, Billups, KG (yes he won the MVP), TMac get more credit than he does. The last three years Dirk has been arguably statistically the best player in the league, and at the very least top 2-3. For that he should be getting much better rep than he does.

[The Nba Is Rigged]

Any player that takes the clutch shot is going to fail more than make.....that doesn't make them a choker.

Dirk is hardly a choker, but he is hardly a superstar either.

To me he is on Tmac's level a great STAR player but not a Superstar.

DD

Just fuck off, :nope

[The Nba Is Rigged]

Cry Havoc, my point about Jordan is that even he, the GOAT, missed a bunch of game winners. Let's not even talk about Kobe, Billups, LeBron. They all have missed plenty. Yet any time Dirk misses one, it's all about choking, eventhough he too has made plenty game winners and pressure shots.

And that is the double standard I am talking about. It's unbeliavable that players that have yet to make the finals or even sniff the MVP like Melo, Arenas, Billups, KG (yes he won the MVP), TMac get more credit than he does. The last three years Dirk has been arguably statistically the best player in the league, and at the very least top 2-3. For that he should be getting much better rep than he does.

This is exactly how I feel...

[Dirk Nowitzki]

This is for you Spurs fan:

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:clap :clap :clap beautiful play. That alone convinces spurs fans that Dirk is clutch regardless on if they admit it or not! :elephant :elephant :elephant

[Cry Havoc]

Cry Havoc, my point about Jordan is that even he, the GOAT, missed a bunch of game winners. Let's not even talk about Kobe, Billups, LeBron. They all have missed plenty. Yet any time Dirk misses one, it's all about choking, eventhough he too has made plenty game winners and pressure shots.

And that is the double standard I am talking about. It's unbeliavable that players that have yet to make the finals or even sniff the MVP like Melo, Arenas, Billups, KG (yes he won the MVP), TMac get more credit than he does. The last three years Dirk has been arguably statistically the best player in the league, and at the very least top 2-3. For that he should be getting much better rep than he does.

I would never call Dirk a choker. Except for last year, and that's just because it's fun to rib you guys, just like when you beat us in 06.

Melo, Arenas, and Billups are all FAR below Dirk on my list, especially of players I would like to see in a Spurs uni. I think Billups is decent but definitely not a night-in night-out threat like Dirk. Tmac is a joke, and a first round flameout, anyone who gives him more credit than Dirk lives in Houston or is just an absolute moron. Look at the vote on the thread near this: 46 to 6 in favor of Dirk. So you have 5 Rockets fans and one homerific Spurs fan who thinks Dirk sucks comparatively.

Which brings us to KG, whom I would rather have (for another season or two) because his defense is stellar and he can play the 3 4 and 5 positions with skill. Dirk is more of a 3/4 guy but doesn't provide the Mavs with a lot of post-defense.




That shorts what Miami did in the Finals. Wade was unstoppable. Riley outcoached Avery, he made some great adjustments that Avery couldn't counter. And considering that they won three games by a total of six points, that really falls into the category of could've gone either way. Dirk showed up and came to play in the final two games after it was deadlocked. He deserves some criticism, but it's just cliche speak to put everything on him. He doesn't win or lose games by himself.


I don't think they're better than Boston. That's just facile. The Kidd trade isn't a slam dunk, it's just a reasonable gamble.

I agree with most of this, except that Dirk needs to find a way to motivate his team to MAKE the plays to win games. It's what a leader does. The three close games he lost indicates that they had chances to win -- Dirk needs to pull out all the stops to get his team the victories.

As for Boston, I made the KG reference because up until this season he's been criticized for not winning it all, just like Dirk. Now he's in Boston and the media is spooging themselves over what a great player he is -- something that any REAL basketball fan has known since he came into the league and started posting over 20 and 10 every single freaking game.

But watch: If the Celtics flame-out before the making the Finals, you will see a backlash against KG. Because superstars who don't win championships are lambasted by the media and fans (unless you're a great white-hype from Canada). That's not going to change anytime soon.

[The Nba Is Rigged]

I would never call Dirk a choker. Except for last year, and that's just because it's fun to rib you guys, just like when you beat us in 06.

Melo, Arenas, and Billups are all FAR below Dirk on my list, especially of players I would like to see in a Spurs uni. I think Billups is decent but definitely not a night-in night-out threat like Dirk. Tmac is a joke, and a first round flameout, anyone who gives him more credit than Dirk lives in Houston or is just an absolute moron. Look at the vote on the thread near this: 46 to 6 in favor of Dirk. So you have 5 Rockets fans and one homerific Spurs fan who thinks Dirk sucks comparatively.

Which brings us to KG, whom I would rather have (for another season or two) because his defense is stellar and he can play the 3 4 and 5 positions with skill. Dirk is more of a 3/4 guy but doesn't provide the Mavs with a lot of post-defense.




I agree with most of this, except that Dirk needs to find a way to motivate his team to MAKE the plays to win games. It's what a leader does. The three close games he lost indicates that they had chances to win -- Dirk needs to pull out all the stops to get his team the victories.

As for Boston, I made the KG reference because up until this season he's been criticized for not winning it all, just like Dirk. Now he's in Boston and the media is spooging themselves over what a great player he is -- something that any REAL basketball fan has known since he came into the league and started posting over 20 and 10 every single freaking game.

But watch: If the Celtics flame-out before the making the Finals, you will see a backlash against KG. Because superstars who don't win championships are lambasted by the media and fans (unless you're a great white-hype from Canada). That's not going to change anytime soon.


:toast

[MajorMike]

Yah, well TMac is one hell of a REGULAR SEASON player as well.

And likewise, he is a playoff choker.

Basketball's versions of Barry Bonds or A Rod (or Ken Griffey Jr), except not as good in regular season.

[The Nba Is Rigged]

Yah, well TMac is one hell of a REGULAR SEASON player as well.

And likewise, he is a playoff choker.

Basketball's versions of Barry Bonds or A Rod (or Ken Griffey Jr), except not as good in regular season.

Please Explain...

[mavs>spurs2]

He can't explain he's just being a fucking douche. For the only 2 series he can bitch about, I can counter with the 03, 04, 05, and 06 playoffs. 50 point game against Phoenix, the layup over SA in game 7, etc.

[The Nba Is Rigged]

He can't explain he's just being a fucking douche. For the only 2 series he can bitch about, I can counter with the 03, 04, 05, and 06 playoffs. 50 point game against Phoenix, the layup over SA in game 7, etc.

Exactly, that's why I hope Dirk punishes people's teams this year in the playoffs. :bang

[stretch]

IAs for Boston, I made the KG reference because up until this season he's been criticized for not winning it all, just like Dirk. Now he's in Boston and the media is spooging themselves over what a great player he is -- something that any REAL basketball fan has known since he came into the league and started posting over 20 and 10 every single freaking game.

But watch: If the Celtics flame-out before the making the Finals, you will see a backlash against KG. Because superstars who don't win championships are lambasted by the media and fans (unless you're a great white-hype from Canada). That's not going to change anytime soon.
The thing is, KG hasn't gotten NEARLY as much criticism as Dirk, EVER. And when it comes to being a leader when it matters and coming through in crunchtime, of all superstars in the league, he is BY FAR the worst.

I still stand by this, when I say that Kevin Garnett is the second most overrated PF in the league, only behind Amare. He is not a leader. He is not a good scorer (gets most of his points off of wide open jumpers or putbacks). His defense is overrated, because he consistently gets his ass kicked by the better PFs/Cs in the league like Duncan, Dirk, Dwight, Amare, etc... watch the dude. He gets a ton of blocks and stops against a bunch of shitty PF's and centers, but when he is faced with a challenge like Dirk or Duncan, they ALWAYS play well. I have never seen him simply shut down an elite PF/C. He might be one of the best "garbage" PF/C's that the league has ever seen, in that he does dirty work very well, but thats about all he is good for. He is NOT a leader. Ron Artest described him perfectly, when basically saying that all that shouting and shit after dunks does not make him a leader, unlike Tim Duncan.

[LEONARD]

Dirk will always be a "choker" to most...even if he wins a title...people just love to hate on him, for whatever reason.

Peopler over-state things when he fails (or his TEAM fails) and make excuses or just gloss over his successes...


fuck you, OP. dirk has zero heart and is soft. don't cry because people call him what he is, a perennial unclutch loser. fuck dirk. cry me a goddamn river.

Wow...just...wow...

[mavsfan1000]

Dirk will always be a "choker" to most...even if he wins a title...people just love to hate on him, for whatever reason.



Wow...just...wow...
It's because he is a white European. No way would they say Dirk was a choker if he was black. It's a racial thing that all Europeans have to deal with in the hip hop culture of the nba.

[LEONARD]

True...

KG is a STUD!!

[stretch]

It's because he is a white European. No way would they say Dirk was a choker if he was black. It's a racial thing that all Europeans have to deal with in the hip hop culture of the nba.
some people may disagree with you, but I don't. I feel that if he was black, that he wouldn't get the criticism that he gets.

[ElNono]

I think he's soft and a choker, and I'm a white half-italian and half-south american.
I don't think race has anything to do with it.

[The Nba Is Rigged]

The thing is, KG hasn't gotten NEARLY as much criticism as Dirk, EVER. And when it comes to being a leader when it matters and coming through in crunchtime, of all superstars in the league, he is BY FAR the worst.

I still stand by this, when I say that Kevin Garnett is the second most overrated PF in the league, only behind Amare. He is not a leader. He is not a good scorer (gets most of his points off of wide open jumpers or putbacks). His defense is overrated, because he consistently gets his ass kicked by the better PFs/Cs in the league like Duncan, Dirk, Dwight, Amare, etc... watch the dude. He gets a ton of blocks and stops against a bunch of shitty PF's and centers, but when he is faced with a challenge like Dirk or Duncan, they ALWAYS play well. I have never seen him simply shut down an elite PF/C. He might be one of the best "garbage" PF/C's that the league has ever seen, in that he does dirty work very well, but thats about all he is good for. He is NOT a leader. Ron Artest described him perfectly, when basically saying that all that shouting and shit after dunks does not make him a leader, unlike Tim Duncan.

This a great post

[mavsfan1000]

This a great post
Agreed. I wish people would respect my opinions more. Yes I've had a fault for bandwagoning in the past but I was younger and immature back than. I did a lot of stupid things. Yes maybe I do look for a different opinion than what everyone else says. I especially can't stand ESPN as they seem biased in a lot of areas. I go by with what I see on the court and yeah I think plus/minus ratio is very important for the value of a player on the court. The more minutes they play, the more accurate the plus/minus ratio and all stats can be.

[endrity]

+1 stretch^

p.s I also agree with most of what you said CryHavoc, nice to see some common ground. But I, like stretch, believe that KG get overrated as well. A superstar has to do the scoring first and foremost. And KG is not great at one thing on offense, which means he'll never take over a game on offense like Dirk and Duncan can.

Also for a man considered to be a shut down defender of all five positions (silly really) I have seen Amare trash him which lead to the famous Marbury quotes about how KG can't hold a candle to Amare; Duncan push him around for a decade now; and Dirk absolutely own him in their lone playoff encounter in 02. KG might be a versatile defender, but it's not like he can really shut down any of the 5 positions. I would rather have Duncan, you know he can't really go out and defend on the perimeter, but on the low block there aren't many better than him.

Plus KG is silly will all that shouting of his. How stupid was his behaviour after the Minny game this year.

[monosylab1k]

I think he's soft and a choker, and I'm a white half-italian and half-south american.
I don't think race has anything to do with it.
It's not just individual people, it's the general attitude of the media.

Like how alot of black players in all sports have "natural gifts" and are "born athletes", while alot of white players are "smart and scrappy" or "fundamentally sound". Dallas sports radio makes fun of that stuff all the time.

As if all black players are just lazy slags who get by on talent alone, and all white players are uncoordinated goofs who maximize their ability by being smart.

It's racist both ways, and it definitely exists in sports media.

I don't know if Dirk wouldn't be as criticized if he was black, I think anybody who had the failures Dirk has experienced will have to suffer that type of criticism. And generally if a guy is going to get roasted by the media, a black athlete will get it alot worse than a white one.

[endrity]

I don't know if Dirk wouldn't be as criticized if he was black, I think anybody who had the failures Dirk has experienced will have to suffer that type of criticism. And generally if a guy is going to get roasted by the media, a black athlete will get it alot worse than a white one.

Black players don't get 'roasted' for lacking heart while playing or that other B.S. They get roasted anytime something goes bad in their life, they become 'thugs' and 'gangsters' and so on.

But how often do you see a black player called heartless or soft. Anytime someone says something like this, than the answer to him is "Say it to his face than" as if that means that a black player is going to retaliate.

Whether you like it or not, the teams that are most often considered soft in the league are the ones that have more white players, especially led by white players, i.e Mavs, Suns, Raptors, Jazz.

[DaDakota]

Anyone that thinks KG has not gotten as much criticism as Dirk are just flat out nuts...

KG was getting KILLED for years for never getting out of the first round...something like 6 years in a row.

Even Magic Johnson was saying he was just a great complimentary player but not a superstar.

Now, the worm has turned, KG is getting too much love....He is a great player, but IMHO, he is NOT a superstar either....

Superstars lead their teams and make everyone else better, and when the game is on the line they are the go to guys....KG has never been that way...ever......

Dirk is more of a go to guy at the end of games than KG....heck Tmac is too....KG doesn't have that signature move...

KG to me is like a better version of Pippen.....an awesome Robin to someone else's Batman.

Right now, he is succeeding because of Paul Pierce and Ray Allen, they take the pressure off of KG to succeed or lead.

Which means everything...

DD

[mavsfan1000]

I think KG is rejuvenated some though. I think he is having a slightly better year than his last 2 or 3 years in Minnesota. He is the ultimate role player if you got scorers around him but he does lack the ability to take over games on the offense.

[DazedAndConfused]

I agree KG deserves the label of choker FAR more than anyone we've mentioned so far. That guy can't even deliver in regular season games, just about every jumpshot he takes in the clutch is a guaranteed brick. What's worse is you can see the fear in his eyes when the ball comes to him and he has to make a decision. He gets rid of that thing like he's playing hot potato.

The fact that he runs his mouth and talks so much trash during meaningless regular season games only makes it worse.

[endrity]

If the Celtics win a title you know Pierce is gonna take all those end-of-the-game shots, cause KG is not gonna hit those.

[MrChug]

..,and Avery couldn't play bigball because Dampier had a torn rotator cuff.

Most teams that have won a championship/been successful in the playoffs have dealt with "roleplayers" having injuries. You had Diop too.

[MrChug]

And for that you call him 'despicable"?

:rolleyes

I think he called the performance "despicable"

[MrChug]

...but I would contend that the majority of criticism leveled against him is unfair.

I agree, however the thread was referring to his choking...not the entire scope of what he gets shit for. He has cowered in the face of responsibility (forgive me for thinking that a Superstar should carry his team thru the biggest games ;)) on the biggest stages (i.e. playoffs).

With that said, I think Dirk continues to be one of the premier players the league has, EASILY. As a player (and from what I can tell, as a person) he's sterling a vast majority of the time. He's one of the diamond elite. He will, however need to have a major showing in these playoffs-or at least have the appearance of it to get the enormous sweaty hairy stinking gorilla off his back. It won't happen until then. I think Dirk has proven he's as "clutch" as anyone, but it's going to take some work from him to prove he's a superstar to lead a team and go down as one of the greats.