Why CP3 is no MVP

[balli]

Out of all the point guards in the league there are four who have clearly seperated themselves from the rest of the pack; Nash, Paul, Williams and Kidd. Statistically they are all near one another in terms of assists. I consider any differences they have to cancel one another out. For example, Kidd gets more rebounds, but Deron plays better on the ball defense. Paul get's more steals, but he can't guard anyone with size. Nash gets more assists, but he also gets more turnovers. My point is, that statistically they are all very, very close and in terms of talent and importance to their teams, they are even closer. Except for one glaring difference in which Paul is kicking their asses.

This season Nash is #1 in the league in turnovers, Deron is 2 and Kidd is 3rd. Anyone want to guess where paul is at... 25. That's right Paul is getting more than an assist and a half better than those other three/TO. Absoultely incredible. However, he is not the MVP.

The reason is this; Chris Paul plays point guard. In my opinion, unless the voters are ready to give a point the MVP every single year, they should never give it to them. Being a point guard is very different from being any other position. Your job literally is to facilitate your team. In essence a good pg is always his teams MVP, because his job on the court is at it's most basic of levels all about making other people better. To me, that puts pg's at an incredible advantage when it comes to winning this award.

Of course, there are no clear criteria for the MVP voters; Are they voting for the most talented, the person who brought cultural change, the best player on the best team or the guy who improves his teamates the most? I'd suspect most of them though, vote based on the latter. In that case wouldn't they really be voting for a PG every year? And also, wouldn't that really mean, that a PG has a competitive advantage, solely becasue of the position they play, to win the award every single season?

Well, fuck that. Being an MVP is the PG's main job. Being the MVP trancends the SG, SF, PF positions of guys like Kobe, Garnett or James. Compared to pg's, they are at a competetive disadvantage when it comes to making their teamates better, but they do it anyway. Maybe not as well, but they do it from an entirely different modus operandi. (and aren't hapless gamblers on defense to boot).

I'm not going to flip if Paul wins it. He's had a great season, but he's also had the ball in his hands about 50% more time than any of the other candidates and he's also had the freedom to facilitate the team in ways that different positions simply cannot do. In conclusion, every season a pg is the truest MVP. For that reason alone they should never win it.

[jacobdrj]

PGs are most important, which precludes them from winning an award titles Most Valuable Player. Ok. Except that historically, PGs with high assist numbers don't win championships, and MVPs usually go to Centers and Centers playing PF (or in the case of Magic, playing PG).

[Killakobe81]

Great points and i agree great year by Paul but i would only vote for him if the hornets had a record like the Celts ...otherwise he is just doing his job ...it's kobe or Lebron they both have the stats and Bron's aslightly better but the record does not support him. :fro

[balli]

PGs are most important, which precludes them from winning an award titles Most Valuable Player. Ok. Except that historically, PGs with high assist numbers don't win championships, and MVPs usually go to Centers and Centers playing PF (or in the case of Magic, playing PG).

That's exactly the point. It's a billion times harder for a center to make his teamates better than it is for a PG. Some of them do it. Therefore, if you're going to hand out the award based on that criteria don't you have to take into account the difficulty that Centers have over PG's? Or, doesn't a point have to win it every year?

[ChuckD]

Both MJ and Kobe were/are the PGs of their teams, no matter what the program says. Are you telling me that Kerr or Paxson ran the Bulls offense, or that Fisher runs the Laker offense? Please...

[Medvedenko]

No one in the triangle offense would ever have the ball in their hands as much as a traditional offense the likes of Nash's or Paul's. Also, I believe no one in the triangle offense the last 20 years hasn't even averaged 9 assists per game.

[balli]

No one in the triangle offense would ever have the ball in their hands as much as a traditional offense the likes of Nash's or Paul's. Also, I believe no one in the triangle offense the last 20 years hasn't even averaged 9 assists per game.

Thanks. I was getting ready to say that. The triangle comlicates the issue.

However, ChuckD, take LeBron for example. He is the PG of his team, but he is 6'8" and see's double teams about 150% more of the time than Paul. It is much, much harder in my opinion for LeBron to facilitate his team than it is for Paul, but LeBron manages to do it anyway. It's exactly my point again- LeBron is trancending his position, paul is not.

[ChuckD]

CP3 has done more with less than any of the other candidates for MVP this year. His greatest magic trick of all is making Tyson Chandler look like the top 3 pick he was instead of the bust he has been every year until he ran into CP3. Only Lebron probably has less to work with and he hasn't done as good a job in a weaker conference.

Understand this: I'm not a Chris Paul fan. I don't like him, but I recognize what he is doing this year.

[balli]

CP3 has done more with less than any of the other candidates for MVP this year. His greatest magic trick of all is making Tyson Chandler look like the top 3 pick he was instead of the bust he has been every year until he ran into CP3. Only Lebron probably has less to work with and he hasn't done as good a job in a weaker conference.

Understand this: I'm not a Chris Paul fan. I don't like him, but I recognize what he is doing this year.

I mean by that criteria Paul is MVP because Kirk Hinrich sucked?

I recognize what he's doing this year too, but I guess I just view it as expected given his position. If Chris Paul were Deron, Nash or Kidd I guarantee they'd be making Tyson Chandler look good too.


Make no mistake. Paul has been the most important player for any team this season. I'm just saying, I expect that out of him, just like I do all the other 3 true point guards. And I'm saying, being 6' and playing point makes it easier for him.

My point isn't that there is a more valuable player than paul; it's that paul or a point-guard, realistically should win the award every single season. Therefore, they should never win it. (Barring a year in which someone averages a triple double)

Also, Paul gets a lot of steals but he sucks fucking ass at defense. Why do you think Deron owns him? I mean, fucking owns him! Because he can't guard anyone who's good, thats why.

[JamStone]

MVPs are many times the facilitators of the offense, whether or not they are the point guards. Michael was the facilitator of the offense in Chicago. Hakeem was the facilitator of the offense in Houston. Tim Duncan was the facilitator of the offense for the Spurs the years he won it. This competitive advantage you speak of for point guards isn't an advantage for point guards who play on teams that run their offense through the post or with hybrid 2-guards or point forwards like Michael, Kobe, LeBron, or Wade. Derek Fisher and Jameer Nelson don't have advantages to win the MVP over LeBron and Kobe because LeBron and Kobe have a lot of point guard responsibilities.

It's a pretty good theory on paper if you don't go deeper. But, I don't think it holds true very much at all.

[ChuckD]

Also, Paul gets a lot of steals but he sucks fucking ass at defense. Why do you think Deron owns him? I mean, fucking owns him! Because he can't guard anyone who's good, thats why.
Actually, they owned each other in their recent meeting. :lol

I like Deron Williams better. He has more to work with, though, with Booz, Okur, and AK47.

I don't like your argument that a PG should never win because of their position and that they are expected to make their teammates better. By that logic, no franchise player should win either, since they would only be doing what is expected of them.

[balli]

MVPs are many times the facilitators of the offense, whether or not they are the point guards. Michael was the facilitator of the offense in Chicago. Hakeem was the facilitator of the offense in Houston. Tim Duncan was the facilitator of the offense for the Spurs the years he won it. This competitive advantage you speak of for point guards isn't an advantage for point guards who play on teams that run their offense through the post or with hybrid 2-guards or point forwards like Michael, Kobe, LeBron, or Wade. Derek Fisher and Jameer Nelson don't have advantages to win the MVP over LeBron and Kobe because LeBron and Kobe have a lot of point guard responsibilities.

Hakeem facilitated the game from the post. He was an awesome passer and had to deal with double teams on near every single play. Same with Duncan. A pg has the entire court to work with and the only time they see doubles is for fleeting seconds when defenders flash out on screen-rolls. In my opinion, it was harder for Hakeem and is harder for Duncan to facilitate the game than it would be for a point guard.

A point can roam the whole court to facilitate the game and rarely see's doubles. LeBron, Kobe and Michael can roam about half the court (although we already discussed the triangle fucking this up) and they see more doubles than points. A big man can only roam the high and low post and if they're good, they always see doubles.

With each change upwards in position, it gets harder and harder for players to facilitate a game. That's why I'm more impressed with forwards and centers who are still able to do it.

[TDMVPDPOY]

if you say cp3 isnt worthy of mvp

then why does steve nash has 2?

mind you, this season cp3 has outplayed any of steves best during his b2b mvp performances and his oscar act, let alone cp3 has less around him, and his posting up a nice team record there.

[balli]

Actually, they owned each other in their recent meeting. :lol

I like Deron Williams better. He has more to work with, though, with Booz, Okur, and AK47.

I don't like your argument that a PG should never win because of their position and that they are expected to make their teammates better. By that logic, no franchise player should win either, since they would only be doing what is expected of them.

Yeah true that. They did both play shitty. And you're right, you expect LeBron and Kobe to be facilitators. That doesn't mean it's as easy for them as it is for a PG. It just means it's expected of them. Maybe I should have stated that better the first time. I think it not only comes down to expectation; but rather the ease ones' position allows in terms of carrying those expectations out.

[balli]

if you say cp3 isnt worthy of mvp

then why does steve nash has 2?




I just thought it would be a foregone conclusion that I didn't agree with Nash winning those MVP's. It was implicit based on my position.

And it isn't that paul isn't worthy of being MVP. In my opinion, he's too worthy. And by that logic he always will be. If they give it to him this year, they better give it to him or another pg for the next 15 because no player is going to make his teamates better than a pg.

[TDMVPDPOY]

I just thought it would be a foregone conclusion that I didn't agree with Nash winning those MVP's. It was implicit based on my position.

And it isn't that paul isn't worthy of being MVP. In my opinion, he's too worthy. And by that logic he always will be. If they give it to him this year, they better give it to him or another pg for the next 15 because no player is going to make his teamates better than a pg.
But the difference between cp3 and the other PGs out there currently is that his posting up nice numbers, roland ratings, watever number crunchin analysis you wanna bring up are up there with the greats,

only franchise players are in discussion for MVPs....

borderline players never get a look at...

[balli]

But the difference between cp3 and the other PGs out there currently is that his posting up nice numbers, roland ratings, watever number crunchin analysis you wanna bring up are up there with the greats,

only franchise players are in discussion for MVPs....

borderline players never get a look at...

Well... and that's why people make the argument for Paul and it's the reason I started this thread the way I did. He's not that much better than Kidd, Deron or Nash. Except in turnovers. Roland ratings, etc get inflated because of his propensity to gamble on steals.

I mean, I see exactly why people are clammoring for Paul... he is having an incredible season. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that maybe someday I'll have to admit being wrong and all the Paul supporters will be right. For now though, I disagree with it. And whether or not people agree or disagree with me, I'd hope they at least see my argument and reasoning as possible and plausible, if not in line with their views, that's all.

[mavsfan1000]

CP3 probably isn't the MVP but he is close.

[Brutalis]

I hate Chris Paul and hopes he comes down with a BAD injury. Thug bitch.

[balli]

I hate Chris Paul and hopes he comes down with a BAD injury. Thug bitch.

And with that BS this thread takes it's first ugly turn.

[Brutalis]

I was being.... .. nevermind .

[mavsfan1000]

What a horrible person CP3 is. He is everything that is wrong with the nba.

[balli]

Does this come back to Paul punching that dude in the nuts or is there a reason people hate him otherwise?

Edit: I know you were being sarcastic mavsfan, but could someone who hates paul clue me into why?

[mavs>spurs2]

Like Jamstone said, that theory doesn't completely hold up. Just because a PG initiates the offense, great players still make plays regardless. There have been PG's who deservingly won MVP, and those who have not. This year I think the award belongs to Kobe.

[endrity]

There is something to be said about the argument though. Since Nash won his MVPs, the writers sort of decided that the MVP has to 'make his teammates' better, whatever that is supposed to mean.

If that's the criteria though, it is always biased towards the PGs because they are the ones who are putting their teammates in position to succeed. Somehow Stockton never won, or came close to winning an MVP, while doing the same things and now all of a sudden it has become the main criteria in winning the MVP.

To me it's simple, take the elite teams in the league, I mean top3; see which player from these three teams is having the best season and hand him the award. None of this 'how would the team do without him' argumet.

[Allanon]

The Lakers have been the walking wounded and injured this year while CP3's had a pretty healthy team.

Kobe, Fish, Bynum, Ariza, Pau, Luke, Mihm

If Kobe had Pau, Bynum and Ariza the entire year, they would have put the 72-10 record in jeopardy :D

[Jessica Simpson]

Derron Williams is the black Steve-O. Ewww, no thanks!

[Allanon]

CP3 has done more with less than any of the other candidates for MVP this year. His greatest magic trick of all is making Tyson Chandler look like the top 3 pick he was instead of the bust he has been every year until he ran into CP3. Only Lebron probably has less to work with and he hasn't done as good a job in a weaker conference.

Understand this: I'm not a Chris Paul fan. I don't like him, but I recognize what he is doing this year.

More with less? Look at the starting five:
Chris Paul: All Star
Peja: 3-time All Star, 2 time 3 point champion
David West: All Star
Tyson Chandler: last year led the league in rebounding and field goal percentage
Morris Peterson: average player

And all these guys were with CP3 for the entire season. That looks like quite a bit to work with. Now look at who Kobe's had with him all season...

Kobe - many time All Star
Lamar
Fisher
Radmanovic

You can't seriously tell me CP3 had less to work with.

CP3's starting five is probably the 2nd best starting five in the NBA behind the Pistons.

LeBron I agree has less to work with but he's in the lEAST.

[TheNextGen]

More with less? Look at the starting five:
Chris Paul: All Star
Peja: 3-time All Star, 2 time 3 point champion
David West: All Star
Tyson Chandler: last year led the league in rebounding and field goal percentage
Morris Peterson: average player

And all these guys were with CP3 for the entire season. That looks like quite a bit to work with. Now look at who Kobe's had with him all season...

Kobe - many time All Star
Lamar
Fisher
Radmanovic

You can't seriously tell me CP3 had less to work with.

CP3's starting five is probably the 2nd best starting five in the NBA behind the Pistons.

LeBron I agree has less to work with but he's in the lEAST.
QFT

[mavsfan1000]

More with less? Look at the starting five:
Chris Paul: All Star
Peja: 3-time All Star, 2 time 3 point champion
David West: All Star
Tyson Chandler: last year led the league in rebounding and field goal percentage
Morris Peterson: average player

And all these guys were with CP3 for the entire season. That looks like quite a bit to work with. Now look at who Kobe's had with him all season...

Kobe - many time All Star
Lamar
Fisher
Radmanovic

You can't seriously tell me CP3 had less to work with.

CP3's starting five is probably the 2nd best starting five in the NBA behind the Pistons.

LeBron I agree has less to work with but he's in the lEAST.
Did you forget Pau Gasol and soon to return Bynum?

[DAF86]

Out of all the point guards in the league there are four who have clearly seperated themselves from the rest of the pack. (And no Cry Havoc, don't flip out becasue I didn't include Tony Parker and don't consider him a "true point guard") Nash, Paul, Williams and Kidd. Statistically they are all near one another in terms of assists. I consider any differences they have to cancel one another out. For example, Kidd gets more rebounds, but Deron plays better on the ball defense. Paul get's more steals, but he can't guard anyone with size. Nash gets more assists, but he also gets more turnovers. My point is, that statistically they are all very, very close and in terms of talent and importance to their teams, they are even closer. Except for one glaring difference in which Paul is kicking their asses.

This season Nash is #1 in the league in turnovers, Deron is 2 and Kidd is 3rd. Anyone want to guess where paul is at... 25. That's right Paul is getting more than an assist and a half better than those other three/TO. Absoultely incredible. However, he is not the MVP.

The reason is this; Chris Paul plays point guard. In my opinion, unless the voters are ready to give a point the MVP every single year, they should never give it to them. Being a point guard is very different from being any other position. Your job literally is to facilitate your team. In essence a good pg is always his teams MVP, because his job on the court is at it's most basic of levels all about making other people better. To me, that puts pg's at an incredible advantage when it comes to winning this award.

Of course, there are no clear criteria for the MVP voters; Are they voting for the most talented, the person who brought cultural change, the best player on the best team or the guy who improves his teamates the most? I'd suspect most of them though, vote based on the latter. In that case wouldn't they really be voting for a PG every year? And also, wouldn't that really mean, that a PG has a competitive advantage, solely becasue of the position they play, to win the award every single season?

Well, fuck that. Being an MVP is the PG's main job. Being the MVP trancends the SG, SF, PF positions of guys like Kobe, Garnett or James. Compared to pg's, they are at a competetive disadvantage when it comes to making their teamates better, but they do it anyway. Maybe not as well, but they do it from an entirely different modus operandi. (and aren't hapless gamblers on defense to boot).

I'm not going to flip if Paul wins it. He's had a great season, but he's also had the ball in his hands about 50% more time than any of the other candidates and he's also had the freedom to facilitate the team in ways that different positions simply cannot do. In conclusion, every season a pg is the truest MVP. For that reason alone they should never win it.

Sorry but this is just stupid, if points guards have such an advantage why isn't this the position with the most MVP's in the history of the league?
Paul should be the MVP this season 'cause he's the most important player to his team. Without him N.O would be a lottery team right now.

[DAF86]

More with less? Look at the starting five:
Chris Paul: All Star
Peja: 3-time All Star, 2 time 3 point champion
David West: All Star
Tyson Chandler: last year led the league in rebounding and field goal percentage
Morris Peterson: average player

And all these guys were with CP3 for the entire season. That looks like quite a bit to work with. Now look at who Kobe's had with him all season...

Kobe - many time All Star
Lamar
Fisher
Radmanovic

You can't seriously tell me CP3 had less to work with.

CP3's starting five is probably the 2nd best starting five in the NBA behind the Pistons.

LeBron I agree has less to work with but he's in the lEAST.

It's funny how lakers fans say that they have the most talented team when they are talking 'bout the championship but then say that Kobe's no help when they talk 'bout the MVP race.

[Allanon]

Did you forget Pau Gasol and soon to return Bynum?

It's funny how lakers fans say that they have the most talented team when they are talking 'bout the championship but then say that Kobe's no help when they talk 'bout the MVP race.

Both Gasol and Bynum have played less than half a season with the Lakers. That's 2 starters.

No doubt if the entire Lakers team (Pau, Bynum, Ariza) were all there for the FULL season, the Lakers would be much higher than 55 wins. Pau only played about 25 games for the Lakers. Bynum played something like 35.

CP3 had almost 100% of his Starters the entire season. Have Chris Paul lose Peja or David West or Tyson Chandler for half the season and see what they would be like. But of course the Haterade clouds the mind and makes people forget "little" things like that.

The Lakers without Pau and Bynum are not very talented at all.

[manufor3]

kidd? that's stupid.

[TampaDude]

http://badpussy.org/uploads/files/vyxlz5grtq7dj3ybi3y1.jpg

^^^ :lol

[balli]

Sorry but this is just stupid, if points guards have such an advantage why isn't this the position with the most MVP's in the history of the league?Paul should be the MVP this season 'cause he's the most important player to his team. Without him N.O would be a lottery team right now.

I'm sorry, but you're just stupid. Otherwise you would have actually read the fucking thread and known that both of your "thoughts" have already been addressed & refuted by this fine poster. See.



There is something to be said about the argument though. Since Nash won his MVPs, the writers sort of decided that the MVP has to 'make his teammates' better, whatever that is supposed to mean.
If that's the criteria though, it is always biased towards the PGs because they are the ones who are putting their teammates in position to succeed. Somehow Stockton never won, or came close to winning an MVP, while doing the same things and now all of a sudden it has become the main criteria in winning the MVP.
To me it's simple, take the elite teams in the league, I mean top3; see which player from these three teams is having the best season and hand him the award. None of this 'how would the team do without him' argumet.

And why take the disrespectful tone. This has been a fairly well-thought out, respectful and intelligent thread, whether people have agreed with me or not... That is until you showed up.

[DAF86]

I'm sorry, but you're just stupid. Otherwise you would have actually read the fucking thread and known that both of your "thoughts" have already been addressed & refuted by this fine poster. See.

I read the thread and i wrote what i wrote 'cause i disagree with what you said. In my opinion the "how would the team do without its star player" argument is very valid.



And why take the disrespectful tone. This has been a fairly well-thought out, respectful and intelligent thread, whether people have agreed with me or not... That is until you showed up

I don't think that i "took the disrespectful tone" i didn't call you stupid i just said that the argument in my opinion is stupid.
I'm not from the U.S maybe this is considered "disrespectful" in your country. If that's the case i'm sorry i didn't mean it.

[DAF86]

But of course the Haterade clouds the mind and makes people forget "little" things like that.

I don't hate anybody, I don't consider that thinking that Paul should be the MVP this season makes me a hater.
Just for the record i do think that Kobe was robbed last season.

[balli]

I read the thread and i wrote what i wrote 'cause i disagree with what you said. In my opinion the "how would the team do without its star player" argument is very valid.

How would the Lakers do without Kobe? How would the Jazz do without Williams? How would the Nuggets do without Crymelo? How would the Blazers do without B-Roy? How would the Warriors do without Baron Davis? How would the Clippers do without Elton brand... oh wait. How would the Suns do without Steve Nash? How would the Cavs do without LeBron? How would the Magic do without Dwight Howard? How would the Mavs do without Dirk? How would the Spurs do without Timmy? How would the Celtics... Ah fuck it. You get the idea. Maybe they should all be MVP.



I don't think that i "took the disrespectful tone" i didn't call you stupid i just said that the argument in my opinion is stupid.
I'm not from the U.S maybe this is considered "disrespectful" in your country. If that's the case i'm sorry i didn't mean it.

Now I feel bad. The thing is this though. My argument isn't stupid. It might be something you disagree with, but it isn't stupid. It could be construed as slightly disrespectful to say it was. Especially since I've said stuff like this:


In fact, I'd go so far as to say that maybe someday I'll have to admit being wrong and all the Paul supporters will be right. For now though, I disagree with it. And whether or not people agree or disagree with me, I'd hope they at least see my argument and reasoning as possible and plausible, if not in line with their views.

[GaryJohnston]

CP3 IS the MVP this year. Though he hasn't played like it in the last couple of games.

[balli]

Why?

[DAF86]

How would the Lakers do without Kobe? How would the Jazz do without Williams? How would the Nuggets do without Crymelo? How would the Blazers do without B-Roy? How would the Warriors do without Baron Davis? How would the Clippers do without Elton brand... oh wait. How would the Suns do without Steve Nash? How would the Cavs do without LeBron? How would the Magic do without Dwight Howard? How would the Mavs do without Dirk? How would the Spurs do without Timmy? How would the Celtics... Ah fuck it. You get the idea. Maybe they should all be MVP

All of those teams would be worst than what they are right now but most of them would still be very decent teams with the exception of the Cavs (but they are 4th in the east right now so i don't think Lebron should be the MVP).
Nobody thought that N.O would be a playoff team this season and they're 1st in the west right now (or 'til some minutes ago) and the reason for that is Paul's game so that's why i think he should win the MVP award.
Besides in my opinion Paul's numbers are better than Kobe's.


Now I feel bad. The thing is this though. My argument isn't stupid. It might be something you disagree with, but it isn't stupid. It could be construed as slightly disrespectful to say it was.

The "this is just stupid" thing it's just a saying in my counrty that you use when you're arguing with somebody but it doesn't mean that you actually think that the other person's artgument is stupid and it isn't considered as an insult. Like i said it's just a saying. But i didn't realize that it could have a different connotation in the U.S so sorry. I forget sometimes that literal translation can be dangerous.

[LakeShow]

I agree in principal about PG's in general. It is nothing MVP'ish about a PG doing their jobs. Getting their team mates involved is what all of them do and should do. Where I disagree with you is that CP3 IS a reputable MVP candidate. This should have been used for Nash when he won the MVP award. CP3 has done more than just score and pass. He has led the league in steals, showing a commitment on both ends of the court. Nash does nothing on the other end of the court and never will. That is why i believe that the Suns will never win a title with Nash at point. I don't buy this bullshit that the Suns would not be good without Nash. You put any of the top 10 guards in the league on that team and they still will be good. Look at the Mavs? A MVP actually making a team he leaves better by leaving? It took Nash leaving for the Mavs to make it to the finals. Same thing will apply to the Suns. Cp3 has earned MVP recognition and If he wins, it will be deserved!

[Cry Havoc]

The Lakers have been the walking wounded and injured this year while CP3's had a pretty healthy team.

Kobe, Fish, Bynum, Ariza, Pau, Luke, Mihm

If Kobe had Pau, Bynum and Ariza the entire year, they would have put the 72-10 record in jeopardy :D

Is that going to be your excuse when you get knocked out of the playoffs?

[JamStone]

Is that going to be your excuse when you get knocked out of the playoffs?

Don't fans of all teams use that as an excuse?

Didn't Spurs fans use it as an excuse in the 2000 playoffs?

[Cry Havoc]

Why?

You could also make the argument that the leading big man of a team should never win the MVP because they impact the game too much. They get the majority of rebounds, are usually the best defender on the team, and get a lot of credit for picking up glory stats (see Camby of last year). Centers can dictate the pace of the game every bit as much as guardplay. They command double teams, and since it's easier for them to see over them, it makes passing out of one easier, with the bonus that they can actually pass over the top of the coming help-defender.

PGs might be the face of a team, but they don't always dictate the offensive rhythm, nor are they always the focus. As soon as Duncan arrived in San Antonio, he was the "point" man of the offense.

The fact is, a player who's good enough to win MVP will always be the focus of his team. The point-blank fact that the media hasn't gathered into it's consciousness yet is that the MVP should be that on BOTH sides of the ball. And no, it's not typically possible for a guard to be the defensive force that a Center is. But a guard CAN influence the game defensively, and they can hit 3s, penetrate at will, and distribute much more efficiently than is typical of a big man. So the counterbalance is there. An MVP should never be a weakness to a team, he should only add strengths to complement what his team CAN do. That's why Nash is a joke, but also why Paul could very possibly win the MVP this year.


To think that they would have even made the playoffs without him is a joke, and here they are with a few games left in the season, fighting for the #1 seed in the most competitive WC in history, when no one had them as more than a 5 seed? If that? It was Spurs and Mavs, then the Rockets, then the Jazz and Suns, the Lakers were expected to do well, and yet here we are: Paul has his team where no one gave them a chance to be. Sounds like an MVP in my book.


Don't fans of all teams use that as an excuse?

Didn't Spurs fans use it as an excuse in the 2000 playoffs?

Sure. We never talked about "oh well we were better than the Bulls 72-win season that year, we were just hurt so we didn't even win 60 games", though.

[Allanon]

Is that going to be your excuse when you get knocked out of the playoffs?

You have your Manu Injury card ready CryHavoc?

I also remember that excuse when Tim Duncan had an ankle injury and wasn't available for the Playoffs :D

[Cry Havoc]

You have your Manu Injury card ready CryHavoc?

I also remember that excuse when Tim Duncan had an ankle injury and wasn't available for the Playoffs :D


Yeah, because losing the best player in the league at the time for the duration of the playoffs, and having a 2nd year player who's never won a playoff game injured for the 2nd half of the regular season are the exact same thing. :rolleyes

Because saying, "We would have done better in the playoffs and had a shot at the title if we were healthy" and "we would have won over 70 games in the regular season if we were healthy". Are the same thing.

And if you really think Manu won't be ready for the playoffs, you probably have never watched him play. Even if we were completely healthy, I wouldn't be so homeristic and arrogant as to compare this current Spurs to the best regular season team of all-time (who also happened to win the title that year). You remind me a lot of the younger Mavs fans from last year who were already putting their team in the best-ever discussion while it was still February.

[Allanon]

Yeah, because losing the best player in the league at the time for the duration of the playoffs, and having a 2nd year player who's never won a playoff game injured for the 2nd half of the regular season are the exact same thing. :rolleyes

Because saying, "We would have done better in the playoffs and had a shot at the title if we were healthy" and "we would have won over 70 games in the regular season if we were healthy". Are the same thing.

And if you really think Manu won't be ready for the playoffs, you probably have never watched him play. Even if we were completely healthy, I wouldn't be so homeristic and arrogant as to compare this current Spurs to the best regular season team of all-time (who also happened to win the title that year). You remind me a lot of the younger Mavs fans from last year who were already putting their team in the best-ever discussion while it was still February.

Hahah, pathetic
:smokin

[balli]

The fact is, a player who's good enough to win MVP will always be the focus of his team. The point-blank fact that the media hasn't gathered into it's consciousness yet is that the MVP should be that on BOTH sides of the ball. And no, it's not typically possible for a guard to be the defensive force that a Center is. But a guard CAN influence the game defensively, and they can hit 3s, penetrate at will, and distribute much more efficiently than is typical of a big man. So the counterbalance is there. An MVP should never be a weakness to a team, he should only add strengths to complement what his team CAN do. That's why Nash is a joke, but also why Paul could very possibly win the MVP this year.

I guess that leaves me begging the question as to why people assume Paul is a good defender. You talked earlier in your post about big men inflating their stats, citing Camby as a perfect example. I think the same thing is happening with Paul and steals. He is good at taking good bets and really isn't as much of a gambler as AI, for instance, but on the ball? In the post? He is just terrible. Not that it's his fault; he's a small-ass dude, but nonetheless his inability to guard anyone with even moderate size is not only a liability, it's a huge liability. Look no further than the 2-8 lifetime record against Deron. Kobe on the other hand is one of, if not THE best on-ball, defending SG in the league.



To think that they would have even made the playoffs without him is a joke, and here they are with a few games left in the season, fighting for the #1 seed in the most competitive WC in history, when no one had them as more than a 5 seed? If that? It was Spurs and Mavs, then the Rockets, then the Jazz and Suns, the Lakers were expected to do well, and yet here we are: Paul has his team where no one gave them a chance to be. Sounds like an MVP in my book.

I kind of see you as making two different arguments here. The first, I reject. You can throw all that "where would they be without him" garbage out the window. Like I said last night- Where would any team be without their best player?

Your second argument is the one to make, and really, it's the one that gives me pause in consideration of my own position. I don't agree with those saying that he has a great supporting cast. I think at best it could be described as somewhere in the middle. Certainly not as good as the Jazz, Spurs, Suns or Mavs, but I actually do think it's comprable to LA's if you count Bynum and then Gasol as only one player. Therefore, because of Paul the team has overachieved (which is entirely seperate from "where would they be without him"). I guess I just think LA has overachieved as well and, in my eyes anyway, Kobe is just a better defender and ultimately a more talented player. For those reasons I give him an edge.


Furthermore, I do think it's harder for other positions to facilitate the game, even if they're tall enough to pass out of double-teams. I don't think anything will convince me otherwise. Like I said:


Hakeem facilitated the game from the post. He was an awesome passer and had to deal with double teams on near every single play. Same with Duncan. A pg has the entire court to work with and the only time they see doubles is for fleeting seconds when defenders flash out on screen-rolls. In my opinion, it was harder for Hakeem and is harder for Duncan to facilitate the game than it would be for a point guard.

A point can roam the whole court to facilitate the game and rarely see's doubles. LeBron, Kobe and Michael can roam about half the court (although we already discussed the triangle fucking this up) and they see more doubles than points. A big man can only roam the high and low post and if they're good, they always see doubles.

With each change upwards in position, it gets harder and harder for players to facilitate a game. That's why I'm more impressed with forwards and centers who are still able to do it.

[balli]

Bump. I stand by this thread. Even more so than I did.