McCain say we cannot ever toture any ..... A M E R I C A N !

[boutons_]

''I’ve made it very clear, I’ve made it very clear in my statements and in my support of the Detainee Treatment Act, the Geneva Conventions, etc., that there may be some additional techniques to be used, but none of those would violate the Geneva Conventions, the Detainee Treatment Act…And we cannot ever, in my view, torture any American, that includes waterboarding."

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/04/14/mccain-opposes-torturing-americans/

So McCain also say waterboarding is torture, while the WH says it's not torture.

Is this guy really this dumb as shit?

Why do the Repugs keep nominating total dumbfucks like dubya and McCain?

[BradLohaus]

Wow.

It's pretty frightening that a presidential candidate feels that he has to explicitly state that he doesn't support the torture of American citizens. I mean, if he says that at the convention are the people supposed to cheer? Maybe he'll run a campaign ad that says, "Vote McCain - he'll only torture foreigners!"

[Yonivore]

Wow.

It's pretty frightening that a presidential candidate feels that he has to explicitly state that he doesn't support the torture of American citizens. I mean, if he says that at the convention are the people supposed to cheer? Maybe he'll run a campaign ad that says, "Vote McCain - he'll only torture foreigners!"
That gets my vote.

[PEP]

Amen!! Well there are some Americans that I wouldnt mind getting tortured, hell we're tortured everyday with some of their posts on here.

[PixelPusher]

That gets my vote.
If the mere technicality of U.S. citizenship is the only thing the grants us the "privilege" not be tortured, denied representation, habeus corpus, etc...then no one's "unalienable rights" are truly safe.

http://www.strike-the-root.com/4/powers/Japanese%20internment%20order1.jpg

[Yonivore]

If the technicality of U.S. citizenship is the only thing the grants us the "privilege" not be tortured, denied representation, habeus corpus, etc...then no one's "unalienable rights" are truly safe.
Unless you're an American.

[PixelPusher]

Unless you're an American.
damn, just missed my edit to include the FDR's executive order to inter American citizens.

So if citizenship isn't enough to guarantee your rights won't be violated, what will? Ethnicity? Political connections?

[Yonivore]

damn, just missed my edit to include the FDR's executive order to inter American citizens.

So if citizenship isn't enough to guarantee your rights won't be violated, what will? Ethnicity? Political connections?
This isn't WWII and the current administration isn't FDR's. Your point?

[PixelPusher]

This isn't WWII
Your right, WWII had an end. The "War on Terror" doesn't.

and the current administration isn't FDR's.
Do you have some crystal ball which tells you future administrations won't retain the precedents of past administrations, and continue to push the envelope? History is not on your side if you think so.

Your point?
That American citizenship by itself is not a guarantee that your rights won't be violated. "...a nation of laws, not of men..." and all of that you know.

[Don Quixote]

That gets my vote.

Dang straight. Better them than us. I'd do whatever it takes to stop Islamic radicals from trying to kill Americans and destroy western civilization.

(That said, if you come across one instance of the gummint torturing an American, or any random (non-terrorist) Moslem, do let me know.)

[Don Quixote]

Quick response to that.

(1) Radical Islam is more than capable of doing serious damage to Western civ. Have you seen what is going on in Europe? It's not out-and-out war there, but there has been enough terror there (e.g., bombings in Spain & Germany) to scare the govts into compliance. And, not to be a scare-monger, but it is only a matter of time before Islam becomes dominant in the UK, France, Belgium, or the Netherlands. When that happens, we'll see sharia. Count on it.

Will this be the end of Western civ? No. Are they capable of ending it? I dunno. But they ARE (or were) capable of monstrous acts (WTC bombing, USS Cole, 9-11) against humanity. And the fact that they're trying to destroy us ought to be enough for us to do whatever it takes to stop them.

Soo ... wake me up when there's an American at Gitmo.

(2) So tell me. What freedoms has the gummint taken from you? What freedoms do you think you might lose?

and (3) I am not a coward.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

you forgot selling out and living in a foreign country

[Don Quixote]

Need to move on and get some more work done. A final word though ...

(1) Obviously you're not taking me seriously about the threat the radical Islam poses, or wants to pose, on Western civilization. Like I said previously, we're not seeing "people killing each other in the streets." But there has clearly been enough pressure exerted by the Islamic community (particularly in the Netherlands) to scare the people and gummint into compliance. (i.e., the Mohammed cartoons, the murder of Theo van Gogh). Put that with Europe's decline in birth rates and the family unit in general, and Islam's tendency to dominate when in the majority, and I conclude that it's only a matter of time before we see the Islamic Republic of Belgium, or something.

Now ... I am optimistic that the US will not see sharia, except PERHAPS in isolated communities (i.e., Dearborn, Michigan). But we know this: (a) they have designs to kill for Allah and institute sharia, and (b) they are capable of great harm. Therefore, it would be foolish and negligent on Pres. Whoever's part not to aggressively pursue them, kill them, and torture them if necessary.

Like I said, wake me up when a dissident American is at Gitmo. (by this, I don't mean an American who's declared jihad. I mean a loyal American who's against the war, or Bush.)

(2) Are you in danger of losing any of your constitutional rights? Like freedom of worship? Freedom from a state religion? Freedom of the press? 5th Amendment? Unreasonable search & seizure? A speedy trial? Do tell me if you've been thrown in prison for criticizing the gummint.

and (3) Fine. We can stop using the word "terrorist," and go with "murderers," "savages," "barbarians," or "destroyers." Your call.

[Don Quixote]

what i'm scared of: national id, martial law, inability to travel freely, freedom of speech, right to a transparent government, being mistaken for an "enemy combatant"

Well, please notify me when you see any of these!

[Nbadan]

Put that with Europe's decline in birth rates and the family unit in general, and Islam's tendency to dominate when in the majority, and I conclude that it's only a matter of time before we see the Islamic Republic of Belgium, or something.

Put down the crack pipe and turn off the wing-nut radio....

[BradLohaus]

(That said, if you come across one instance of the gummint torturing an American, or any random (non-terrorist) Moslem, do let me know.)

'Family Jewels' reveal CIA altered mind of four-year-old girl
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,21978876-663,00.html

EASILY lost, on page 425, in the mass of the CIA's notorious "Family Jewels" files is a short paragraph outlining "potentially embarrassing Agency activities".

"Experiments in influencing human behaviour through the administration of mind- or personality-altering drugs to unwitting subjects."

Of all the heinous acts committed by the CIA in the name of national security, these experiments, done on the agency's behalf by prominent psychiatrists on innocent victims - including children as young as four - may be the darkest.

"We have no answer to the moral issue," former director Richard Helms infamously said when asked about the nature of the projects.

The release of the Family Jewels documents revealed the CIA handsomely funded these real-life Dr Strangeloves and engaged pharmaceutical companies to help its experiments...

The nature of the experiments, gathered from government documents and testimony in numerous lawsuits brought against the CIA, is shocking, from testing LSD on children to implanting electrodes in victims' brains to deliberately poisoning people with uranium.

"The CIA bought my services from my grandfather in 1952 starting at the tender age of four," wrote Carol Rutz of her experiences.

"Over the next 12 years, I was tested, trained, and used in various ways.

"Electroshock, drugs, hypnosis, sensory deprivation, and other types of trauma were used to make me complain and split my personality (to create multiple personalities for specific tasks).

"Each alter or personality was created to respond to a post-hypnotic trigger, then perform an act and (I would) not remember it later.

"This Manchurian Candidate program was just one of the operational uses of the mind-control scenario by the CIA.

"Your hard-earned tax dollars supported this."

The US began these experiments after World War II when it made a grab for hundreds of Nazi scientists and doctors who had been researching mind control in concentration camps, fearing they would fall into Soviet hands.

US military intelligence leaders were paranoid that they were falling behind the communist bloc in the brain-washing race.

The programs, though carefully hidden, continued into the 1970s - when Helms ordered much of the documentation to be destroyed.

But the CIA would never do anything terrible, like assassinate a U.S. president for example, or God knows what else.

[Don Quixote]

Put down the crack pipe and turn off the wing-nut radio....

(Okay ... how to respond?)

Normally, I would let stuff like this, especially from you, go. But Islamic studies happens to be in my wheelhouse and I can't pass it up.

First of all, my judgments regarding Islam and the future of the West are not based upon "right-wing radio" (when you say that, you mean Rush). To my recollection, Rush has not talked much about it. I don't recall Hannity (don't listen to him much) or Beck either saying much about it. And we don't get Bennett in New Orleans, and I don't have time to listen to talk radio all day anyway. Or watch TV news, for that matter.

My judgments on the matter come primarily from my education in comparative religions, theology, and missions, and from being educated by people who have lived in Europe and the Middle East, a few for many years, who have considerable experience and education on the matter. Would you like to be put in touch with Dr. Michael Edens at NOBTS? He is the Dean of Graduate Studies and a retired missionary who spent 30 years in the Middle East, 23 in Cairo, 7 in Baghdad. He can tell you everything about Islam and how Egypt has changed since about 1980.

I could also get you in touch with "abu Daoud" (name withheld), who is currently in Israel. He is an Anglican missionary who was kicked out of Jordan for no reason in particular. He, too, is a wonderful man who can tell you all about the Islamic mentality and their designs on changing the world.

Lastly, and I know this is anathema to you, but I would look at "The Corner" blog on National Review online. Filter out the conservative stuff and focus on the stories regarding sharia and Europe.

Pax

[PixelPusher]

'Family Jewels' reveal CIA altered mind of four-year-old girl
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,21978876-663,00.html

EASILY lost, on page 425, in the mass of the CIA's notorious "Family Jewels" files is a short paragraph outlining "potentially embarrassing Agency activities".

"Experiments in influencing human behaviour through the administration of mind- or personality-altering drugs to unwitting subjects."

Of all the heinous acts committed by the CIA in the name of national security, these experiments, done on the agency's behalf by prominent psychiatrists on innocent victims - including children as young as four - may be the darkest.

"We have no answer to the moral issue," former director Richard Helms infamously said when asked about the nature of the projects.

The release of the Family Jewels documents revealed the CIA handsomely funded these real-life Dr Strangeloves and engaged pharmaceutical companies to help its experiments...

The nature of the experiments, gathered from government documents and testimony in numerous lawsuits brought against the CIA, is shocking, from testing LSD on children to implanting electrodes in victims' brains to deliberately poisoning people with uranium.

"The CIA bought my services from my grandfather in 1952 starting at the tender age of four," wrote Carol Rutz of her experiences.

"Over the next 12 years, I was tested, trained, and used in various ways.

"Electroshock, drugs, hypnosis, sensory deprivation, and other types of trauma were used to make me complain and split my personality (to create multiple personalities for specific tasks).

"Each alter or personality was created to respond to a post-hypnotic trigger, then perform an act and (I would) not remember it later.

"This Manchurian Candidate program was just one of the operational uses of the mind-control scenario by the CIA.

"Your hard-earned tax dollars supported this."

The US began these experiments after World War II when it made a grab for hundreds of Nazi scientists and doctors who had been researching mind control in concentration camps, fearing they would fall into Soviet hands.

US military intelligence leaders were paranoid that they were falling behind the communist bloc in the brain-washing race.

The programs, though carefully hidden, continued into the 1970s - when Helms ordered much of the documentation to be destroyed.

But the CIA would never do anything terrible, like assassinate a U.S. president for example, or God knows what else.
Well, it wasn't during WWII and that little girl wasn't of Japanese descent, so this story couldn't possible be true...

[PixelPusher]

(Okay ... how to respond?)

Normally, I would let stuff like this, especially from you, go. But Islamic studies happens to be in my wheelhouse and I can't pass it up.

First of all, my judgments regarding Islam and the future of the West are not based upon "right-wing radio" (when you say that, you mean Rush). To my recollection, Rush has not talked much about it. I don't recall Hannity (don't listen to him much) or Beck either saying much about it. And we don't get Bennett in New Orleans, and I don't have time to listen to talk radio all day anyway. Or watch TV news, for that matter.

My judgments on the matter come primarily from my education in comparative religions, theology, and missions, and from being educated by people who have lived in Europe and the Middle East, a few for many years, who have considerable experience and education on the matter. Would you like to be put in touch with Dr. Michael Edens at NOBTS? He is the Dean of Graduate Studies and a retired missionary who spent 30 years in the Middle East, 23 in Cairo, 7 in Baghdad. He can tell you everything about Islam and how Egypt has changed since about 1980.

I could also get you in touch with "abu Daoud" (name withheld), who is currently in Israel. He is an Anglican missionary who was kicked out of Jordan for no reason in particular. He, too, is a wonderful man who can tell you all about the Islamic mentality and their designs on changing the world.

Lastly, and I know this is anathema to you, but I would look at "The Corner" blog on National Review online. Filter out the conservative stuff and focus on the stories regarding sharia and Europe.

Pax
Because Europe is EXACTLY like the Middle East...

[Don Quixote]

'Family Jewels' reveal CIA altered mind of four-year-old girl

Fine. I am more than willing to admit that the gummint was and is capable of bad things to Americans. This happened in the 1950s, not that long ago, but still, a long time ago. If that made any sense.

But IN THIS CONTEXT (i.e., GWOT), please let me know when the gummint has rounded up dissidents (merely for demonstrating), silenced free speech, kept Moslems in prison for no reason in particular, etc. Because if this country really was losing its freedoms the way that Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia did, then we'd be seeing guys like Michael Moore or Markos Mouslitas locked up right now. Or whole Islamic families thrown in prison or deported. Or people being fined for listening to certain radio programs. Etc.

But I'm not finding that, despite what Al Gore tells people overseas. If Americans are really losing their freedoms at the hands of the Bush administration, I'm not seeing it. (Now have we been losing our freedoms over the decades at the hands of the gummint? That's a different story!)

Let me give you a caveat, however. Most conservatives have been, since 2001, in the position of generally defending the govt. Not 100% signing off on everything, but in general, we have defended the administration against some real crass and base criticism. That said, I would advise conservatives not to get into the habit of always defending the govt, or the Presidency. Indeed, we are, ideally, the party of smaller govt. And, second, it's only a matter of time before we see a Pres. Clinton or Obama. And so I'm not defending the admin out of some naive trust in govt. It's more out of a real skepticism of your conclusions based on the evidence.

[Don Quixote]

Because Europe is EXACTLY like the Middle East...

Never said it was. Bernard Lewis is probably the best writer on the differences between Islam and Europe historically. He'd be a good one for your summer reading.

But the Islamic immigrants (legal!) have been taking advantage of European freedom, wrought by modernism and indirectly by Christianity, and have naturally used it to their advantage. As they have increased in political and economic power, they have been able to get European people and govts to bend or change their customs/laws in order to accomodate Islam. This would be okay if Islam would return the favor, which of course, it won't and can't.

My point was, some Western European nations are in serious trouble of having an Islamic majority in the next 50 years. If this happens, Islamic rule is inevitable because Islam is also a political system. When this happens, we can kiss freedom goodbye in that part of the world.

[PixelPusher]

My point was, some Western European nations are in serious trouble of having an Islamic majority in the next 50 years. If this happens, Islamic rule is inevitable because Islam is also a political system. When this happens, we can kiss freedom goodbye in that part of the world.
There are way too many possible variables between now and 2058 to link your point A (Europe as a modern, liberal democracy) to a point B (Europe as a medieval Islamic theocracy). Are you basing your certainty on some lame conservative stereotype of "the cheese-eating surrender monkey" European?

[Don Quixote]

There are way too many possible variables between now and 2058 to link your point A (Europe as a modern, liberal democracy) to a point B (Europe as a medieval Islamic theocracy). Are you basing your certainty on some lame conservative stereotype of "the cheese-eating surrender monkey" European?

Yes. And the possibilities are (a) Europe stands up to defeat Islam. Doubtful. I don't think Europeans have the political will to stand up to them. And they can't do it militarily.

(b) Islam conquers Europe. If today's trends continue, then I think that will happen. It's a matter of when. This is the majority opinion in evangelical and conservative circles.

(c) Islam adopts some aspects of European democracy, a bit like Turkey. Some conservatives think this will happen. I don't see it because it doesn't take into account how Islam works. Islam has NEVER not dominated politically where it has conquered (by warfare or otherwise).

But no, I like to think I am a fair-minded scholar. And not all Europeans are "surrender monkeys," although I am sure a few are. So no insults or "lame cons. stereotypes" here.

[PixelPusher]

not if !AMERICA! has anything to do with it!
Good point. We'll probably invade Europe as a preemptive measure, because if we don't it'll turn into a base for Al Qaeda. Then the U.S and "the terrorists" can mutually agree that Europe is the new central battlefield in the war on terror. At least the weather will be more temperate for future generations of Blackwater mercenaries, and whatever military soldiers can be spared from occupation duty in the Middle East.

[Don Quixote]

And ... would you at least admit that some liberal opinions are partially informed by "lame" stereotypes of conservatives as: backward, southern, uneducated, racist, bigot, sexist, homophobe?

[PixelPusher]

And ... would you at least admit that some liberal opinions are partially informed by "lame" stereotypes of conservatives as: backward, southern, uneducated, racist, bigot, sexist, homophobe?
Not all Conservatives are "backward, southern, uneducated, racist, bigot, sexist, homophobes," although I am sure a few are. So no insults or "lame lib. stereotypes" here. :toast

[BradLohaus]

This happened in the 1950s, not that long ago, but still, a long time ago. If that made any sense.

The official story is that it went on into the late 60s and possibly early 70s, when most of the documents were destroyed on the orders of the head of the CIA. But you can boil that explanation down to this:

"Um, yeah, we did some terrible things, but we won't do anything like that ever again...oh by the way, we destroyed most of the evidence."

Would you trust an explanation like that from anybody or any organization? I don't know how we can take the CIA's word on anything.


(Now have we been losing our freedoms over the decades at the hands of the gummint? That's a different story!)

That's what I'm saying, but I'm also saying that it sure looks like the CIA is capable of pretty much anything as long as they think it's necessary and that they can get away with it. It's not hard to imagine a scenario where some American Islamic converts blow something up, and then... well, I guess we have to allow for the torture of Americans as well. And then it's on the books. It's all a slippery slope, and we aren't exactly at the top.

[PixelPusher]

(c) Islam adopts some aspects of European democracy, a bit like Turkey. Some conservatives think this will happen. I don't see it because it doesn't take into account how Islam works. Islam has NEVER not dominated politically where it has conquered (by warfare or otherwise).

Do you have a monolithic view of Islam (or other religions, for that matter) that precludes any possibility transformation or reformation, particularly in the face of the modernity/liberty/culture of the West and globalization in general? Let me put it another way, is Indonesia (majority muslim nation) becoming more liberated/modern like it's neighbors (Australia, Japan, India, etc.) or devolving into a more Arab state-like theocratic/autocratic shithole?

[Don Quixote]

Well, I'm not exactly predicting that terrorism from Europe will threaten the US if/when Islam takes over there. In fact, Europe is already doing a fairly good job of producing terrorists as it is! And I'm not predicting that these Islamic republics will be state sponsors of terror. Too early to tell, although it is possible.

But, believe me, you're saying Islam is not capable of causing great harm to Western culture. And I'm saying it is. Certainly having Islamic rulers who will no doubt fail to respect basic human rights will be more conducive to producing terrorism/murder/barbarism.

[PixelPusher]

I don't think Europeans have the political will to stand up to them.

Setting aside the vagueness of whatever "standing up to them" means in a non-military sense, have you ever met a European man or woman who longed trade their culture and freedom for a foreign religious theocracy? I sure as hell haven't.

[Don Quixote]

i think everyone is partially misinformed by everything

Are you misinformed right now, making that statement?

[Don Quixote]

Do you have a monolithic view of Islam (or other religions, for that matter) that precludes any possibility transformation or reformation, particularly in the face of the modernity/liberty/culture of the West and globalization in general? Let me put it another way, is Indonesia (majority muslim nation) becoming more liberated/modern like it's neighbors (Australia, Japan, India, etc.) or devolving into a more theocratic/autocratic Arab butthole?

Well, Islamic culture is not monolithic. And its interpretations of the Koran and Haditha differ among the four schools of Islamic jurisprudence. But the basic union of umma & state are common. In other words, there is only one secular Islamic country, and it is not a very stable one: Turkey. Turkey is in fact in some turmoil as there is a serious push toward sharia right now.

Iran is another example of a formerly secular country that turned to sharia, in 1979. Some of Nigeria is in danger of it too. I am not sure about Indonesia, but if it liberalizes, it will be because it has compromised Islam. And watch out for the radicals (e.g., they're out there in Indonesia, Malaysia, and the Philippines, killed a few of our missionaries!)!

So ... to answer your question, yes, Islamic culture can accomodate, but only by compromising Islam. This is a fundamental contradiction to the Moslem -- how can he be one person in private and another in public? Indeed, this is a good question for us all.

Now, I don't think sharia has a future in the US (Canda, maybe). We have a very strong separation of religion and state (arguably too strong!) and I don't imagine that Americans will surrender their tradition of freedom too easily. Europe is another matter. I think Islam, which has a strong system of moral beliefs, will have a much easier path in Europe. And those govts better do something.

My overall point is, Islam is a threat to us both culturally and "militarily," was a threat long before 9-11, and will be for the forseeable future. So I won't lose any sleep over terror/murder/destruction suspects getting ruffed up at Gitmo.

[Don Quixote]

Setting aside the vagueness of whatever "standing up to them" means in a non-military sense, have you ever met a European man or woman who longed trade their culture and freedom for a foreign religious theocracy? I sure as hell haven't.

A good question. Certainly, Western converts to Islam have done just that.

Now, as for the gummints, I would mean that "standing up to them" (a bit vague, I admit) would mean applying civil law to Moslems as they would to everyone else. Examples would be: prohibiting Islamic polygamy, compelling Moslems to pay taxes, outlawing jihad, etc.

But I'm not sure that gummints will enforce their laws or "crack down" on the Moslem immigrants out of fear of reprisals and violence. And the Moslems will never extend the tolerance being given to them by the Europeans. And this is the danger of treating every religion like it's the same. They are clearly not.

[Don Quixote]

We have to allow for the torture of Americans as well. And then it's on the books. It's all a slippery slope, and we aren't exactly at the top.

A valid point. So let's see if non-jihadist Americans have been/are being tortured or held unlawfully. I don't know of any.

come to think of it ... I at last have found a case where the govt is taking away my freedoms!

They're trying to tell me what kind of light bulb to put in my house.
What kind of car to drive! What kind of gasoline to use. What kind of education to give my kids (in California). The gummint is telling restaurants here in La. whether or not paying customers can smoke in them (they can't)!

You're right. We ARE losing our freedom! :depressed

[BradLohaus]

A valid point. So let's see if non-jihadist Americans have been/are being tortured or held unlawfully. I don't know of any.

What I'm saying, and I think most people are saying, is that we are going down a dangerous path and that in the future there could be more adjectives in front of the word Amercans other than non-jihadist.

[Don Quixote]

What I'm saying, and I think most people are saying, is that we are going down a dangerous path and that in the future there could be more adjectives in front of the word Americans other than non-jihadist.

I agree. And we should continue to be vigilant that dissenters are not rounded up merely for dissenting. If they're committing crimes against people or property, or planning to blow stuff up, however, then yes, lock em up.

But let's not say that the Bush administration is especially bad about our rights. I don't see the evidence that they are. The Patriot Act, for its faults, was passed in the context of defeating Islamic terror. And I don't want to get into the nuts-and-bolts of FISA/wiretapping, et al. Suffice it to say that it is done, sometimes poorly, with the intent of protecting us.

But I am with you. I am an orthodox conservative and am fully skeptical of big government and its potential for abusing power. So when the wrong people are getting locked up, let me know.

[BonnerDynasty]

i'm not going to say bush is a tyrant or a dictator
but, shit, we're not getting any more free
and there seems to be zero inclination by any branch of the government to protect civil rights


and one could argue that mccain-feingold violates freedom of speech too

How about the dems trying to end public talk radio? Can't forget dat one yo.



http://www.amazon.com/America-Alone-End-World-Know/dp/0895260786

The future, as Steyn shows, belongs to the fecund and the confident. And the Islamists are both, while the West—wedded to a multiculturalism that undercuts its own confidence, a welfare state that nudges it toward sloth and self-indulgence, and a childlessness that consigns it to oblivion—is looking ever more like the ruins of a civilization.

Dunno. :elephant

[Don Quixote]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,351242,00.html

Here's an article out of Rome. Yes, it's FoxNews, but I don't think there's any reason to doubt its basic accuracy. Read what the Moslem cleric has to say.

[Don Quixote]

Another one that addresses the 3 options available for Europe:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23539446-5013480,00.html

I don't think options 2 or 3 are going to happen.

[PixelPusher]

A good question. Certainly, Western converts to Islam have done just that.

So I take you haven't met with, talked to any native Europeans? On what basis do you suppose an increasingly secular Europe is clamoring for a culturally alien theocracy?

[clambake]

i have an idea. lets go after the radicals that are clearly based in pakistan.......

oops, thats what obama said...............nevermind.

[boutons_]

"let's see if non-jihadist Americans have been/are being tortured or held unlawfully. I don't know of any."

say some American citizen anti-war protesters, peaceful but completely uncooperative with the militarized local gestapo, show up at the Repug convention, like for the 1968 Dem convention. We already know how the NYC police travelled all over the country, out of their jurisdictions, to secretly investigate any group that could be coming to the 2004 Repug convention.

dubya can call these AMERICAN CITIZENS "enemy combattants", and no one will ever see them again, sequestered in Guantanamo or expedited overseas into the CIAs secret gulag. Of course, they will all be tortured.

Once given a power, the holder never resists using the power. eg, the spotless-record lady who was arrested then, by a gang of police goons, stripped and cavity-searched. The fascist goons had the power, they used it.

[spurster]

What freedoms have we lost? We have lost/are losing privacy between the NSA eavesdropping on the internet and ISPs beginning to do deep packet inspection supposedly for "marketing", "advertising" and copyright filtering.

[boutons_]

'ISPs beginning to do deep packet inspection"

The difference is that ISPs have no power to tatoo and act on anyone as an "enemy combattant".

I do expect the FBI to deputize network operators and/or ISPs so their deep-packet spying will be completely legal.

If you secure your Internet communications with encryption, you're automatically a suspect. Next step is "enemy combattant".

[Nbadan]

Mccain goes old school...


jE96K01YO24

[Don Quixote]

So I take you haven't met with, talked to any native Europeans? On what basis do you suppose an increasingly secular Europe is clamoring for a culturally alien theocracy?

No, I happen to know quite a few. My mother is French, and I have several friends at the seminary from Europe. We have a Russian professor. I also read pieces and books by European writers. And, no, they are not clamoring for sharia to be instituted.

What I'm saying is that, if current immigration and birth trends continue, that native-born Europeans may be outnumbered by Moslems (both immigrant and native-born) in some parts of Europe within the next fifty years. If the Moslems are not more powerful numerically, they will at least be more powerful politically. And, remember, Islam does not play well with democracy. This is when we could see sharia.

You'll know it when they blow the horn in Rome and compel everyone to bow towards Mecca! Not that it's happening anytime soon.

That said, my contention that Islam poses a threat to Western culture and civilization is a valid one. Does it necessarily follow that the Iraq invasion, et al, were necessarily right? Of course not. But we better take the threat seriously.

[boutons_]

"suppose an increasingly secular Europe is clamoring for a culturally alien theocracy?"

Evidence?

France is 60M, the Arabs are 6M, and Jews a 600K. The French govt has been profoundly secular since the Revolution overthrew the King who was deeply intertwined with Catholic power structure, which was true pretty much throughout Europe, the head of state and head of church ruled together, it they weren't one person (England).

There's no way the current young generation of ethnically-Arab French will start breeding like Palestinians in Gaza. So no way to have sharia democraticaly voted in sharia in France (or any European country).

Arabs taking over Europe and installing sharia is pure fantasy. The Europeans are well aware of the danger and have very active anti-terrorist police. They will not stop them all (Spanish trains, London buses) but their governments won't fall to sharia. That's a fantasy by the American fear-mongering jingoists.

[101A]

Evidence? Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slur (http://www.reuters.com/article/entertainmentNews/idUSL1584799120080415?feedType=RSS&feedName=entertainmentNews&rpc=22&sp=true)



PARIS (Reuters) - French former film star Brigitte Bardot went on trial on Tuesday for insulting Muslims, the fifth time she has faced the charge of "inciting racial hatred" over her controversial remarks about Islam and its followers.

Prosecutors asked that the Paris court hand the 73-year-old former sex symbol a two-month suspended prison sentence and fine her 15,000 euros ($23,760) for saying the Muslim community was "destroying our country and imposing its acts".

Since retiring from the film industry in the 1970s, Bardot has become a prominent animal rights activist but she has also courted controversy by denouncing Muslim traditions and immigration from predominantly Muslim countries.

She has been fined four times for inciting racial hatred since 1997, at first 1,500 euros and most recently 5,000.

Prosecutor Anne de Fontette told the court she was seeking a tougher sentence than usual, adding: "I am a little tired of prosecuting Mrs Bardot."

Bardot did not attend the trial because she said she was physically unable to. The verdict is expected in several weeks.

French anti-racist groups complained last year about comments Bardot made about the Muslim feast of Eid al-Adha in a letter to President Nicolas Sarkozy that was later published by her foundation.

Muslims traditionally mark Eid al-Adha by slaughtering a sheep or another animal to commemorate the prophet Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son on God's orders.

France is home to 5 million Muslims, Europe's largest Muslim community, making up 8 percent of France's population.

"I am fed up with being under the thumb of this population which is destroying us, destroying our country and imposing its acts," the star of 'And God created woman' and 'Contempt' said.

Bardot has previously said France is being invaded by sheep-slaughtering Muslims and published a book attacking gays, immigrants and the unemployed, in which she also lamented the "Islamisation of France".

[Don Quixote]

Wow. He didn't read my post at all!

I'll say it again -- IF PRESENT TRENDS CONTINUE, then we may well see the Islamization of parts of western Europe. It's not here yet.

I'm not saying it to be a "fearmonger." Indeed, what if I were to say, "lookout, that car's about to hit you, AHHHH!" am I being a fearmonger? The answer would be, of course not, there's a car about to slam into me.

It's something the West should and ought to be concerned about. Also, there appears to be a backlash against the growing Islamic population in Europe. What is not yet clear is if Europe will be able to either stop it, or force the Moslems to respect European culture and laws. That's where I am skeptical.

Another great blog on Islam ...

http://islamdom.blogspot.com

By my friend "abu daoud," a Christian missionary somewhere in the Middle East.

[Don Quixote]

A story out of England.

ENGLAND: 'No more mosques' says Synod member
Alison Ruoff claims that building mega-mosques could help turn Britian into an Islamic state

by Ruth Gledhill
From Times Online
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3662450.ece
April 1, 2008

A prominent evangelical member of the Church of England's General Synod has called for a ban on the building of any more mosques in Britain.

Alison Ruoff also claimed that Sharia law is inevitable in this country if mosques continue to be built here.

Mrs Ruoff, a former magistrate, said in an interview with London's Premier Christian Radio that no more mosques should be built in Britain until all persecution of Christians in Muslim nations had ceased.

She said: "No more mosques in the UK. We are constantly building new mosques, which are paid for by the money that comes from oil states.

"We have only in this country as far as we know, 3.5 to four million Muslims. There are enough mosques for Muslims in this country, they don't need anymore.

"We don't need to have Sharia law which would come with more mosques imposed upon our nation, if we don't watch out, that would happen. If we want to become an Islamic state, this is the way to go.

"You build a mosque and then what happens? You have Muslim people moving into that area, all the shops will then become Islamic, all the housing will then become Islamic and as the Bishop of Rochester has so wisely pointed out, that will be a no-go area for anyone else.

"They will bring in Islamic law. We cannot allow that to happen."

Dr Michael Nazir-Ali enraged the Muslim community and received death threats against his family when he warned recently that parts of Britain had become no-go areas for non-Muslims.

The subsequent controversial speech on Islamic law by the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, coincided with a concern among many of the Church's other bishops to mollify Britain's Muslims in the wake of Dr Nazir-Ali's comments. [...]

[Don Quixote]

i'm more worried about russia or china or india or brazil or israel or england or france

Brasil? Attacking us?

What'll they do to us -- stop sending us their sugar and supermodels?

[ClingingMars]

Radical Islam is a serious threat, and the Dems are treating them like our friends.

- Mars

[Don Quixote]

but the Islamic radicals don't have money and there's not very many of them

No, they don't. Thank God, and the hard work done by our brave military and intelligence community. Not everything has been 100% perfect, but I'm pretty thankful for their work so far.

Whether or not you're for Iraq or the Patriot Act, we have to at least acknowledge that, overall, the GWOT has been a success. al-Qaeda's finances, chain of command, and recruitment have been in serious disarray since late 2001, and about all they're capable of these days is roadside bombs and small stuff, if they're even doing those. So we've done a great job on these goons.

I'm a bit more afraid of Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in Gaza. They have alot more friends in the media and the American Left. I'm not sure about their finances, but I know they'd be in a considerably better position to start trouble if they so chose. Not that they're aiming at us at the moment.

Overall, however, we still need to take the threat of radical Islam, and "orthodox" Islam in Europe, seriously.

[Don Quixote]

crofl

don't be so skeered and eager to abandon the constitution

remember? the constitution?

Yes, I have heard of the Constitution. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "abandoning it." Again, wake me up when the Bush administration (or the courts) take away the freedom of the press, or freedom against unreasonable search & seizure, or the abolition of slavery (12th amendment), or the freedom of worship.

On the other hand, you can make a decent case that our Constitutional freedoms have been steadily eroding over the totality of the 20th century. Good examples might be the 2d Amendment, Or the 10th. I'd be actually with you on that one.

But these Islamic radicals (they're still here in the US, we find some every so often) are the ones who want to "take away" our Constitution. And I don't see how taking reasonable steps against them would be a bad thing.

[Don Quixote]

grant the govt sweeping powers and expect it to only exercise those powers against 'terraists' and not its own citizens

silly

Not sure about what these sweeping powers are. Care to elucidate?

On another level, I'm beginning to see why alot of people in the blogosphere, and at ST, have such hatred toward Bush, Rummy, Cheney, Rice, et al. The admin. has taken measures to deal with overseas threats, in particular radical Islam, before they cause us serious trouble. It is really unprecedented -- Clinton, Bush I, Reagan, Carter never went to the steps that Bush went to to deal with terrorism.

I'm not trying to argue that everything Bush has done is right, or the proper move. But their actions would certainly anger lefties, who do not take the threat of Islam seriously, and in fact sometimes view the terrorists/murderers/destroyers (pick your word) as the good guys! And so unless the Right can show that we indeed have enemies overseas who would love to do us in, the Left will continue to be angry.

[boutons_]

" "take away" our Constitution"

and how fuck would they do that? dubya's WH has been much an actual greater risk to the Constitution, using the pretext of GWOT.

"reasonable steps"

no specifics?

[Don Quixote]

crofl

don't be so skeered and eager to abandon the constitution

remember? the constitution?

And who's skeered? You're the one skeered that the gummint's gonna come and git you!
:p:

[boutons_]

"GWOT has been a success"

Repug/neo-cunt talking points, totally detached from reality.

Paki FATAs still operational and mostly untouched,

OBL more alive than dead.

7 years after US invasion, the Taleban are STILL increasing their attacks, with the US, having more troops there than in 2001, are still under-manned in Afghanistan.

The entire US forces are over-extended, tied down, and being exhausted and killed on two fronts. Pretty damn good situation for the terrorists.

The terrorists could justifiably say: "We fight them in our backyards so we don't have to fight them in America"

[PEP]

"GWOT has been a success"

Repug/neo-cunt talking points, totally detached from reality.

Paki FATAs still operational and mostly untouched,

OBL more alive than dead.

7 years after US invasion, the Taleban are STILL increasing their attacks, with the US, having more troops there than in 2001, are still under-manned in Afghanistan.

The entire US forces are over-extended, tied down, and being exhausted and killed on two fronts. Pretty damn good situation for the terrorists.

Just wondering, have you actually fought in the GWOT or served in Iraq or Afghanistan?

And how do you know Bin Laden is alive? Do you hold daily phone conferences with him?