What would you buy instead of Iraq?

[balli]

http://3trillion.org/

And I didn't even get to 3 trillion... Guess I should have bought the Yankees 350 more times.

Some highlights- I bought 16 NBA franchises, universal healthcare, repaired katrina damage, ended world hunger and our dependence on foreign oil. I also bought a six pack of hanes socks.

Fuck this war. If you support it, fuck you.




New York Yankees
QUANTITY: 1
PRICE: $1,027,000,000.00



Make a Hollywood Movie
QUANTITY: 1
PRICE: $106,600,000.00


Treat Heart Disease and Diabetes
QUANTITY: 1
PRICE: $50,000,000,000.00

'An Inconvenient Truth' for every american
QUANTITY: 1
PRICE: $30,000,000,000.00

Medical Marijuana For All Cancer, HIV, HCV, and MS Patients
QUANTITY: 1
PRICE: $128,845,000,000.00


Universal Health Care for Every American (300 million of us)
QUANTITY: 1
PRICE: $920,100,000,000.00


A Year’s Worth of Pancreatic Cancer Research
QUANTITY: 1
PRICE: $66,700,000.00


Control Malaria
QUANTITY: 1
PRICE: $2,000,000,000.00


Luxury Ocean Liner
QUANTITY: 1
PRICE: $750,000,000.00


NBA Franchise
QUANTITY: 16
PRICE: $300,000,000.00


Plant 1,000,000 trees
QUANTITY: 1
PRICE: $10,000,000.00


Free College for 20 Million Students for 1 year
QUANTITY: 2
PRICE: $400,000,000,000.00


Hanes Classics Men's 6 pack cushion low cut, white, 6-12
QUANTITY: 1
PRICE: $10.00


Achieve Universal Literacy
QUANTITY: 1
PRICE: $5,000,000,000.00


finish repairing the damage done by Katrina
QUANTITY: 1
PRICE: $200,000,000,000.00


Rice for All
QUANTITY: 1
PRICE: $60,000,000,000.00


Switch to Solar
QUANTITY: 1
PRICE: $420,000,000,000.00


No Kill Animal Shelters World Wide
QUANTITY: 1
PRICE: $7,000,000,000.00


End our Dependence on Foreign Oil
QUANTITY: 1
PRICE: $500,000,000.00


TOTAL: $2,629,178,303,077.00

[Nbadan]

DOH!


lgq5suMXCV8

[Yonivore]

The present massive level of spending on welfare for the poor started with the President Johnson in 1964 when he declared his "War on Poverty". Since that time there has been an estimated $7 trillion spent on this "war" with no noticeable impact on the poverty rate, as reported by the Census Bureau.

Democrats would do the same with every other "war" they'd be willing to declare.

[RandomGuy]

The present massive level of spending on welfare for the poor started with the President Johnson in 1964 when he declared his "War on Poverty". Since that time there has been an estimated $7 trillion spent on this "war" with no noticeable impact on the poverty rate, as reported by the Census Bureau.

Democrats would do the same with every other "war" they'd be willing to declare.

Making poverty a national concern set in motion a series of bills and acts, creating programs such as Head Start, food stamps, work study, Medicare and Medicaid, which still exist today. The programs initiated under Johnson brought about real results, reducing rates of poverty and improved living standards for America's poor.

Care should be exercized when quoting "poverty rates", as the way poverty is measured is far different today than in 1967

[RandomGuy]

Quite frankly out of the last 38 years, Republicans have had the presidency for 26 of those years.

I have simply not seen any real leadership from Republicans on this issue with a paucity of realistic solutions.

[RandomGuy]

How poverty measurement methods affect interpretation of the data (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/whypov.html)
(for more technical explanations see the Census Bureau's Poverty Measurement site (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/povmeas/povmeas.html))



Not everybody stays in poverty for the same amount of time. If you look at who is in poverty in a given year, you get a different picture than if you look at those temporarily in poverty or the long-term poverty population.

See these groups compared in the latest report on Dynamics of Economic Well-Being:Poverty (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/sipp96/sipp96.html)
highlights (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/sipp96/highlights.html) of the report
The report above used data from the Survey of Income and Program Participation (SIPP)—unlike the official poverty data, SIPP data can show for how long, on average, individuals remain in poverty.
How you define income matters.

Not counting government cash assistance as income raises the poverty rate.
Counting noncash benefits (such as Medicaid, Medicare, and subsidized school lunches) as income lowers the poverty rate.
See the effects of noncash benefits and taxes on income and poverty
Table (http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032003/rdcall/2_000.htm) showing U.S. poverty rate under alternative income definitions.
Detailed Reports (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/publications.html#reports) about alternative income definitions.
Not counting certain types of expenses as income changes who is considered to be in poverty.
Not counting work-related expenses raises poverty rates for married-couple families.
Not counting out-of-pocket medical expenses as income raises the poverty rate for older Americans.
For further details, see the research conducted by the Census Bureau (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/povmeas/povmeas.html) based on National Academy of Sciences’ (NAS) recommendations.
Tables (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/povmeas/reports.html) about NAS-based alternative poverty measures
Report [PDF] (http://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/p60-216.pdf)

How you define need (in the thresholds) changes who is considered to be in poverty.

For further details, see the research (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/povmeas/povmeas.html) conducted by the Census Bureau based on National Academy of Sciences’ recommendations.
Tables about NAS-based alternative poverty measures
Report [PDF]

[clambake]

if only there was money in killing the poor.

[RandomGuy]

Ebenezer Scrooge: ...Where are we now?
Ghost of Christmas Present: The name would mean nothing to you. It's a place, like too many in this world.
Meg: ...Mary, Peter, they're cooked.
[to Ben]
Meg: Do we have enough wood for the night?
Peter (their son): They're too hot to eat yet, mother.
Meg: They'll be cooler soon enough.
Mary (their daughter): How did you get these, father?
Ben: [defensive] I didn't steal them, if that's what you're saying!
Meg: She never SAID you stole them, Ben! Don't berate the girl.
Ben: She should have some respect!
Meg: They fell from a cart into the road, Mary.
Ben: Your father's not a thief, Mary... Not yet.
Meg: ...Ben, come back and eat with us, won't you?
Ben: Look at these hands, Meg. They're hard hands; they've done hard work. I want to work, to have bread for my children... It's not right that there's no work.
Meg: We four still have each other, Ben. That's the most important thing.
Ben: I love you, Meg, all of you. Tomorrow, I want you to take the children and go to the Parish Poorhouse.
Meg: No! Better we all drown in the river, than go to one of THOSE places and be separated forever!
Ben: Only until I can find work.
Meg: We wouldn't LAST that long...! Come on, Ben, let's have some dinner.
Ebenezer Scrooge: Why are these people out here? Wearing rags, eating scraps! Why aren't they in poorhouses, or...?
Ghost of Christmas Present: Have you VISITED any of these poorhouses you speak of?
Ebenezer Scrooge: No, but I'm taxed for them; isn't that enough?
Ghost of Christmas Present: YOU tell ME.

[RandomGuy]

. Since that time there has been an estimated $7 trillion spent on this "war" with no noticeable impact on the poverty rate, as reported by the Census Bureau.

Link? I would like to see the source data, to verify if this claim, if possible.

[101A]

Care should be exercized when quoting "poverty rates", as the way poverty is measured is far different today than in 1967Wouldn't know THAT if you listen to the rhetoric from the left, would you?

How are we doing by '67 standards? Can we stop playing the class warfare card?

[RandomGuy]

Wouldn't know THAT if you listen to the rhetoric from the left, would you?

How are we doing by '67 standards? Can we stop playing the class warfare card?

That is a very good question, and one I am attempting to get to the bottom of.

There is a LOT to read on the subject, as any brief tour through the Census website shows.

[101A]

Ebenezer Scrooge: ...Where are we now?
Ghost of Christmas Present: The name would mean nothing to you. It's a place, like too many in this world.
Meg: ...Mary, Peter, they're cooked.
[to Ben]
Meg: Do we have enough wood for the night?
Peter (their son): They're too hot to eat yet, mother.
Meg: They'll be cooler soon enough.
Mary (their daughter): How did you get these, father?
Ben: [defensive] I didn't steal them, if that's what you're saying!
Meg: She never SAID you stole them, Ben! Don't berate the girl.
Ben: She should have some respect!
Meg: They fell from a cart into the road, Mary.
Ben: Your father's not a thief, Mary... Not yet.
Meg: ...Ben, come back and eat with us, won't you?
Ben: Look at these hands, Meg. They're hard hands; they've done hard work. I want to work, to have bread for my children... It's not right that there's no work.
Meg: We four still have each other, Ben. That's the most important thing.
Ben: I love you, Meg, all of you. Tomorrow, I want you to take the children and go to the Parish Poorhouse.
Meg: No! Better we all drown in the river, than go to one of THOSE places and be separated forever!
Ben: Only until I can find work.
Meg: We wouldn't LAST that long...! Come on, Ben, let's have some dinner.
Ebenezer Scrooge: Why are these people out here? Wearing rags, eating scraps! Why aren't they in poorhouses, or...?
Ghost of Christmas Present: Have you VISITED any of these poorhouses you speak of?
Ebenezer Scrooge: No, but I'm taxed for them; isn't that enough?
Ghost of Christmas Present: YOU tell ME.
You DO NOT get moral high ground simply because you've become a flaming liberal over the past 24 months! Voting left is EASY; giving you OWN time, money and effort to ACTUALLY help people is putting action to those sanctimonious words you are spewing.

Conservatives, again, give MORE in charity than liberals.

YOU KNOW WHY? Because TAXES ARE NOT ENOUGH!!!! Scrooge must have been a liberal, he assumed taxes could fix a problem, when, obviously, it didn't.

Thanks for pointing that quote out; I'll use it.

[Spurminator]

if only there was money in killing the poor.


Vote for Scott (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24011)

[RandomGuy]

You DO NOT get moral high ground simply because you've become a flaming liberal over the past 24 months! Voting left is EASY; giving you OWN time, money and effort to ACTUALLY help people is putting action to those sanctimonious words you are spewing.

Conservatives, again, give MORE in charity than liberals.

YOU KNOW WHY? Because TAXES ARE NOT ENOUGH!!!! Scrooge must have been a liberal, he assumed taxes could fix a problem, when, obviously, it didn't.

Thanks for pointing that quote out; I'll use it.

I have always been a centrist. I only became a "liberal" after GW was elected and I was redefined that way by conservatives such as yourself.

Since then I have fully embraced the term, and turned my back on a party that has betrayed me.

Revolutions tend to eat their children and the Republican revolution has been no different. The extremists get control and moderates are thrown under the bus for not being revolutionary enough.

That's ok, we have long memories.

[RandomGuy]

those sanctimonious words you are spewing.

Ah yes, sanctimonious words...


Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

[RandomGuy]

Mark 12

28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these."

[101A]

I have always been a centrist. I only became a "liberal" after GW was elected and I was redefined that way by conservatives such as yourself.

Since then I have fully embraced the term, and turned my back on a party that has betrayed me.

Revolutions tend to eat their children and the Republican revolution has been no different. The extremists get control and moderates are thrown under the bus for not being revolutionary enough.

That's ok, we have long memories....and yet the Republicans have nominated one of the most moderate among themselves.

Go Figure.

Bush is not governing conservatively; the Medicaire drug act certainly doesn't fall into any "Far Right" agenda I've read. Amnesty for illegal aliens? As much as you may talk about "studying"..."Buying into hype" <> "Study".

Iraq is what it is, but trying to make Bush out to be some ideological right wing devotee is intellectually weak.

[101A]

Ah yes, sanctimonious words...


Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."And, honestly, I wish I had the faith to do that.

FWIW, I give at church weekly; and have become a firm devotee that the Lord returns ten times what is given; the more I give, the more I seem to prosper; seriously. Taken that to the ultimate extreme, and following the desciples' lead, however, takes a faith I don't have.

[RandomGuy]

giving you OWN time, money and effort to ACTUALLY help people is putting action to those ...words

Astonishingly enough, I do all three, thank you very much.

I give what I can to a local children's shelter in San Marcos, do some mentoring, and volunteer tax preparation once per year.

But hey, thanks for showing everyone your own prejudices when it comes to people who disagree with you. It shows rather clearly how you make decisions with little or no data.

[101A]

Mark 12

28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these."Not sure what you are getting at here. You are not suggesting that voting left some how equates to "loving thy neighbor"...are you?

Please verify if that is the case.

[RandomGuy]

And, honestly, I wish I had the faith to do that.

FWIW, I give at church weekly; and have become a firm devotee that the Lord returns ten times what is given; the more I give, the more I seem to prosper; seriously. Taken that to the ultimate extreme, and following the desciples' lead, however, takes a faith I don't have.

Something we can both fully agree on. (picks self off floor)

[101A]

Astonishingly enough, I do all three, thank you very much.

I give what I can to a local children's shelter in San Marcos, do some mentoring, and volunteer tax preparation once per year.

But hey, thanks for showing everyone your own prejudices when it comes to people who disagree with you. It shows rather clearly how you make decisions with little or no data.Writing too quickly; didn't mean to suggest that you DON'T; just that I DO. Was offended you suggested "paying taxes" = "unScroogelike"

[RandomGuy]

...and yet the Republicans have nominated one of the most moderate among themselves.

Go Figure.

Bush is not governing conservatively; the Medicaire drug act certainly doesn't fall into any "Far Right" agenda I've read. Amnesty for illegal aliens? As much as you may talk about "studying"..."Buying into hype" <> "Study".

Iraq is what it is, but trying to make Bush out to be some ideological right wing devotee is intellectually weak.

McCain is indeed somewhat moderate. He is also a Republican, and that party has lost my vote long ago.

Personally, his flip-flop on torture finally removed any lingering desire to vote for him. I cannot forgive that.

[RandomGuy]

Writing too quickly; didn't mean to suggest that you DON'T; just that I DO. Was offended you suggested "paying taxes" = "unScroogelike"

Fair enough, I take it back and apologize for the last bit.

[101A]

McCain is indeed somewhat moderate. He is also a Republican, and that party has lost my vote long ago.

Personally, his flip-flop on torture finally removed any lingering desire to vote for him. I cannot forgive that.Shall we bring up Obama's quotes during the '04 convention on the Iraq war?

That is a more obvious flip that McCain's NOT voting for the current bill. He DID sponsor a bill that banned much torture, that is in effect, and has explained WHY he didn't support this one. The fact that Huffington doesn't like his decision doesn't surprise me.

If the Dems were smart, however, they would bring up bill after bill that a moderate would support, but will make the right wing cringe; It's tough in a two party system to build a coalition when on EVERY bill you have to vote "Yes" or "No" for the entire thing.

[RandomGuy]

Not sure what you are getting at here. You are not suggesting that voting left some how equates to "loving thy neighbor"...are you?

Please verify if that is the case.

Not exactly.

You seem to think that charity will solve all the problems unaided if government went away, and I do not. Some problems require government solutions, and some require private solutions.

Government or charity is simply a means to an end.

I view government as simply a way to pool collective resources on a national level.

When one sees charities, and the amount that some of them spend on fundraising and administrative overhead, I honestly can't tell the difference between that kind of inefficiency and governmental inefficiency.

[101A]

...or he could just to Obama's thing and vote "Present".

[RandomGuy]

Shall we bring up Obama's quotes during the '04 convention on the Iraq war?

Oh yes, let's. (http://mediamatters.org/items/200801140002)


Kurtz misrepresented Obama's 2004 remark on Iraq war stance

Summary: On Reliable Sources, Howard Kurtz claimed that in a 2004 Chicago Tribune article, Sen. Barack Obama "said there wasn't much difference between his position and George Bush's position on the [Iraq] war."

But Kurtz left out three key words from Obama's quote in the Tribune -- "at this stage" -- as well as the context of the remarks, both of which indicate that Obama was discussing how best to stabilize Iraq from mid-2004 onward, not claiming agreement with Bush on the war itself.

In arguing with the batshit insane 9-11 truthers, I came across a great resource on propaganda.

One of the methods of propaganda is the "Lie By Omission and Half-Truths" (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#lie_omission)


This one is more subtle. It has the advantage that you can't get caught in a lie, because everything that you say is true. You just happily fail to mention all of those bothersome little facts that do not support your point of view. Should a critic point out one of those annoying undesired facts, you can at least feign innocent ignorance, or claim that the fact is really just an unimportant, trivial detail, not worth mentioning.

For example: In 1908, the Lutheran minister Dr. Frank Nathan Daniel Buchman got into a squabble over money with the trustee committee of their hospice for young men in Philadelphia, and in an angry huff, Buchman resigned and got on a boat for Europe. He ended up at a large religious convention in Keswick, England, where he felt that he had a spiritual transformation. He felt moved to write letters of apology to all six of the trustees with whom he had squabbled, humbly asking their forgiveness. Buchman said that none of them even bothered to answer his letters.

That was rather unkind of them, wasn't it? No wonder Buchman had a disagreement with them, if they were really so haughty and so inconsiderate that they would not even acknowledge a man's humble apology and request for forgiveness...

There is just one small detail that Frank Buchman left out in his telling of that story: Buchman didn't put any return address on the envelopes that he mailed back to Philadelphia.


The lie here is a subtle one.

All one has to do is leave out "at this stage" and it becomes something else entirely.

If you have to lie about someone to make the case why I shouldn't vote for them, please don't do so to my face, it just pisses me off.

If you honestly didn't know the rest of the quote, I would then ask "why didn't you find the context of the remark?"

You got it wrong. Either you didn't bother to do any critical thinking about something you read, or you are purposefully lying.

[101A]

Oh yes, let's. (http://mediamatters.org/items/200801140002)



In arguing with the batshit insane 9-11 truthers, I came across a great resource on propaganda.

One of the methods of propaganda is the "Lie By Omission and Half-Truths" (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#lie_omission)




The lie here is a subtle one.

All one has to do is leave out "at this stage" and it becomes something else entirely.

If you have to lie about someone to make the case why I shouldn't vote for them, please don't do so to my face, it just pisses me off.

If you honestly didn't know the rest of the quote, I would then ask "why didn't you find the context of the remark?"

You got it wrong. Either you didn't bother to do any critical thinking about something you read, or you are purposefully lying.How about because we've got a back and forth in a political blog on a basketball website, and I heard what I heard, and wrote about it?

I ain't gonna put enough time, effort or thought into this to begin parsing words. I dont' make apologies, or hide my true feelings/beliefs. Easy, RG.

[balli]

I ain't gonna put enough time, effort or thought into this to begin parsing words. I dont' make apologies, or hide my true feelings/beliefs. Easy, RG.

You mean to say you aren't going to put enough time or effort into being truthful? It seems like you've spent plenty of time and effort doing otherwise.

[RandomGuy]

How about because we've got a back and forth in a political blog on a basketball website, and I heard what I heard, and wrote about it?

I ain't gonna put enough time, effort or thought into this to begin parsing words. I dont' make apologies, or hide my true feelings/beliefs. Easy, RG.

Ok, fair enough. (deep breath)

I think we might have come out of this with some modicum of respect for each other, if not total agreement.

Sorry if I was a bit harsh.

There is just so much out there that is just one side's or another's attempt at spin, it is frustrating to see it out there and know better.

[101A]

Ok, fair enough. (deep breath)

I think we might have come out of this with some modicum of respect for each other, if not total agreement.

Sorry if I was a bit harsh.

There is just so much out there that is just one side's or another's attempt at spin, it is frustrating to see it out there and know better.One more thing about Obama's quote during the convention, however. Don't have time to see where I saw it, but I saw HIM questioned on it; and he said, basically, that he had to support the war because "his" nominee was. He didn't use the argument that his support at that time was temporal, or based on current circumstances. Again, don't know the details, but it was Obama's response to the original question that drew my attention the first time.

Hawk fan: stfu.

[101A]

One more thing about Obama's quote during the convention, however. Don't have time to see where I saw it, but I saw HIM questioned on it; and he said, basically, that he had to support the war because "his" nominee was. He didn't use the argument that his support at that time was temporal, or based on current circumstances. Again, don't know the details, but it was Obama's response to the original question that drew my attention the first time.

Hawk fan: stfu.
I looked it up; Obama has, in fact, not shown inconsistency on Iraq beyond the point that he did not want to pull out in '04, but does now (but that is certainly a defensible position).

That said, I searched, "Obama Flip Flop" and got a litany of hits on a variety of subjects. No doubt at least a couple of them would hold some merit. Point being, your point in not being able to support McCain because of an apparent flip-flop is honorable, but ultimately, could leave you with no POLITICIAN to support; unfortunately, they all do it.

(although I still hold out that McCain could still be consistent based on nuances in the two bills).

The politician who has changed his stances the LEAST as of late?

Bush - he doesn't change; political expedience and public opinion be damned; I thought that was a trait we WANTED in a president?

Didn't he tell us in '04 when we REELECTED him that he was going to stay in Iraq till the job was done? Didn't we ALREADY know there weren't any WMD's? Didn't he say it could take a long time?

Didn't he SAY he was going to cut taxes, and didn't he publish those tax cuts?

What EXACTLY has he done that he didn't say he was going to do? Where has Bush flip-flopped?

How has that stubborn refusal to stick to his promises and principals worked out for him?

Maybe THAT'S why they do it?

[Wild Cobra]

Fuck this war. If you support it, fuck you.
Wow... interesting wet dream you have. Sorry, I'm not participating in your fantasy. I'm strait.

Yes, I support the war. Over-runs have not been $3T. We don't know if it will exceed $3T, but I kind of doubt it. There is a cost to peacetime military operations already. Iraq is not the only place we are providing forces and support for "The War on Terror." We still might get payment back when Iraq starts making extra money on the oil. Hard to say though. With the leftist sissy talk of "going in for oil" any repayment we take from oil will be fuel for that propaganda.

I really wish people knew what facts were.

Sissies like you can just go to hell. If real men and women didn't put their lives on the line, where would sissies like you exist?

[RandomGuy]

To answer the OP, I would buy a self-sustaining colony on Mars.

Estimated cost:

$100,000,000,000

Followed by a heavy investment in orbital infrastructure and bootstrapping orbital industrial capacity.

Estimated cost:

$150,000,000,000

Add a cool trillion for solar and wind generation, and you could almost completely relace coal as a source of electricity for the US.

Another trillion or so on energy efficiency programs and recycling.

Hell, I would still have cash left over to say rebuild a few bridges, provide massively for education grants, and subsidize health insurance.